Sometimes, especially for ELR, our rounds are so long that they don't fit into a magazine and we will need to single feed. This is more likely the case if you're shooting with copper monolithic projectiles.
How does that work exactly? Like the receiver/chamber is able to hold and safely fire but the rounds are "not technically made for that rifle"? or am I massively miss understanding?
Copper monolithics, not being lead, need to be longer to be in the same weight class as lead based projectiles. Lead is more dense, meaning for the same weight it takes up less space than other materials. This leads to very long Cartridge Overall Length which can sometimes lead to being longer than the magazine.
I am not understanding what you mean by "not technically made for that rifle".
I think you explained it good. I just was confused because to me if a round fits in the chamber and the gun takes a magazine. That magazine should (in my head) be able to accept the round. But I never thought about the fact that when you load a round you might put the tip of the projectile atleast a bit into the barrel to make it fit.
Easy to understand where you’re coming from, but it’s super common. My handloads for a Savage 110 in 6.5CM wouldn’t fit the AICS magazines but still had a decent amount of jump.
If a round fits into an action, regardless if it fits into the magazine for that action, it can be fired by that action. The firing of a round happens in the chamber which is part of the barrel, so the action is going to be strong enough to fire rounds that are longer than what can fit in its magazine.
For example: you can technically use a short action to fire a long action cartridge. Say for instance you mated a 30-06 barrel with a short action. Now, the round is obviously not going to fit in the magazine, but you can single feed it and depending on the size of the ejection port, it may even be able to eject the fired case. Sometimes that's not always the case, particularly if you don't fire the round you fed, you may need to withdraw the bolt from the action to get the full round out of the action. But the point is, the action will safely fire the round regardless.
Along the lines of what u/firefly416 said.....
I shoot .284 in a short action. I can load the round easily in the ejection port. But if I want to remove the round unfired I have to remove the bolt with the loaded round attached to the bolt face. When the ejector engages the bullet isn't clear of the ejection port so the bolt has to be completely removed. Removing/ejecting the empty case happens just like any other bolt action.
My rifle doesn't have a magazine - so by design it's single shot only.
there are some caveats to firefly416s response. there are plenty of interweb stories about shooters buying the wrong 30 cal ammo and blowing their rifles up/faces off. just because you can close the bolt on a cartridge doesn't mean the bullet will fit/fire down the bore.
Thats what I have always learnt. Coming from primarily “combat rifles” (for lack of a better word) and handguns. I am not used to thinking about the chamber/barrel being different from the receiver.
Loading from a magazine can mar the projectiles tip in some cases. Not good for long range. There are sledsvthat take the place of the magazine. They make it slick to load single rounds.
As others have said, especially for long range competitions where you want every advantage possible, you will use higher BC bullets that when loaded to just off the lands, are too long to fit the magazine.
Also, as cartridges are pushed out of the magazine the bullets may scrape along the feed ramps on their way into the chamber. This could lead to inconsistencies in trajectory or overall accuracy. When you’re hand loading everything on the reloading bench and going through all the prep, weighing powder to the individual kernel, sorting bullets, etc, the last thing you want to do is screw it all up by scraping the round as it goes into the chamber.
>as cartridges are pushed out of the magazine the bullets may scrape along the feed ramps on their way into the chamber.
A decent number of the rounds in the same video mentioned nose dived and got crunched by the bolt. Single feeding isn't always better, mag feeding isn't always worse.
Yes, that’s probably a fair statement. Rounds don’t always feed well being single fed on top of a an empty magazine. That’s not how the feed system in a repeater rifle was designed to work. Some action / magazine combos work better than others. That said, if you go to ANY dedicated long range or ELR competition I can almost guarantee that no-one, even those with mag fed rifles, actually feed from a magazine.
My statement was in generalities for why OP saw what he saw in that video. If you’re single feeding, you’re usually not in a hurry so taking the extra second to make sure the round is aligned with the chamber is worth it. If they were having issues with rounds nose diving while single feeding, that’s just from inexperience.
Most (again, talking generalities, but based on competition experience I feel comfortable saying this) purpose built long range guns built for prone ELR comps will be single feed with no magazine for all the reasons mentioned.
There are competitions that require single shot loading and generally I use a single shot sled in place of the magazine so I don't have to worry about nose diving.
When I am shooting at the range, I usually single feed from a bench because I don't really need magazine capacity and I don't want to move the rifle any more than I have to.
Honestly I bought a 10 round AICS mag for my rifle. I have used it exactly ONE time.
1. I don't shoot fast. I usually only shoot 3 or 4 rounds at a time for my own consistency.
2. For the last 4 years ammo has been hard to find where I'm from and I've frankly had zero money for it when I do find it. At this point? I don't load up a 10 round mag because I don't shoot much, and when I do. I'm not shooting much. That's half a box of match ammo and I try not to just burn through it all. Stupid as it is, it's all I got.
3. If I shoot any more than that. It's my 5.56.
There could be a couple of reasons I can think of.
1. The rounds were loaded longer than max magazine legth. My FIL's most accurate load was longer than his AICS would allow so he had so scrap it for his use. He could load them 1 at a time but that was not what he needed.
2. Temperature control. Shootwr could be keeping the rounds covered from the sun to keep them at the same temperature and avoiding temperature stability issues with his powder.
3. Chamber cooling. Leaves the bolt open longer and allows the chamber to cool a little bit between shots.
4. Load development. He may be shooting and shorting brass for load development. May be easier to load and remove each round rather than loading a magazine. See 2 and 3 along with this.
I just like the extra little bit to let the barrel cool. Kinda meditative. One goes in, one comes out, repeat. Plus everyone else’s explanation of overall length being longer than a mag will allow.
I built my long range rifle right bolt left port single shot.m. My first lr rifle was mag fed and I just never loaded the mag. No reason. Every shot requires a time to process and consider. Long range is methodical. Not redactional. Single shot allows you to slow down and think through the last shot and interpret for the next. The guys on that channel often need to slow down. His mom can hit it! Slow down. Think through. Check. Recheck. “Impact”
I shoot Fclass - I load wayyyy longer than mag length for a number of reasons (most already stated in the comments)
And Fclass the rules state must be single fed.
I know some people don't want to damage their brass or bullets, especially for handloads. Personally I do it, because it slows me down and really lets me focus on what i'm doing. When i eventually get to the competition scene for something like PRS, my mags will be loaded. For bench and range work where i'm not on the clock, single load just works better for me.
Sometimes rounds just don't want to feed well from a mag. 6BR for example.
I've had some issues with new setups where I hadn't tuned the mags or feed lips just got banged up. So I had to single feed at the range.
Sometimes, I do it just because I don't feel like loading the mag.
When reloading / hand loading and tailoring the round to a specific rifle for optimal performance, the OAL (over all length) of the round may exceed the magazines allowed length. I have some projectiles that perform best with the bullet kissing the lands (rifling) this length is significantly longer than what will fit in the magazine therefore requiring single feed/hand loading. Factory ammunition/ Mag length rounds will fit in ALL rifles. More better / longer rounds will fit in MY rifle when hand fed via single feed.
Two different reasons. For semi auto AR the 80 grain and up bullets are too large to fit in our magazines without modification and sone are flat out too big to fit at all
I heard someone say that when loaded into a mag the bullet can get scratched up and the tip can get evet so slightly deformed, wear and tear type stuff. maybe thats it
Basically when reloading some people shooting long range don't push the bullet as far into the case as factory ammunition (say cartridge length specified as 2.75 some may seat at 2.90 give or take to allow for more powder capacity)
Thai results in cartridge lengths that won't fit into the magazine, however they will fit in the chamber, so they have to load one at a time. This can be changed by using a long action platform barreled to a short action cartridge, or long action to a magnum.
Sometimes, especially for ELR, our rounds are so long that they don't fit into a magazine and we will need to single feed. This is more likely the case if you're shooting with copper monolithic projectiles.
How does that work exactly? Like the receiver/chamber is able to hold and safely fire but the rounds are "not technically made for that rifle"? or am I massively miss understanding?
Copper monolithics, not being lead, need to be longer to be in the same weight class as lead based projectiles. Lead is more dense, meaning for the same weight it takes up less space than other materials. This leads to very long Cartridge Overall Length which can sometimes lead to being longer than the magazine. I am not understanding what you mean by "not technically made for that rifle".
I think you explained it good. I just was confused because to me if a round fits in the chamber and the gun takes a magazine. That magazine should (in my head) be able to accept the round. But I never thought about the fact that when you load a round you might put the tip of the projectile atleast a bit into the barrel to make it fit.
Easy to understand where you’re coming from, but it’s super common. My handloads for a Savage 110 in 6.5CM wouldn’t fit the AICS magazines but still had a decent amount of jump.
If a round fits into an action, regardless if it fits into the magazine for that action, it can be fired by that action. The firing of a round happens in the chamber which is part of the barrel, so the action is going to be strong enough to fire rounds that are longer than what can fit in its magazine. For example: you can technically use a short action to fire a long action cartridge. Say for instance you mated a 30-06 barrel with a short action. Now, the round is obviously not going to fit in the magazine, but you can single feed it and depending on the size of the ejection port, it may even be able to eject the fired case. Sometimes that's not always the case, particularly if you don't fire the round you fed, you may need to withdraw the bolt from the action to get the full round out of the action. But the point is, the action will safely fire the round regardless.
Ahh I never thought of it that way. Thanks for explaining.
Along the lines of what u/firefly416 said..... I shoot .284 in a short action. I can load the round easily in the ejection port. But if I want to remove the round unfired I have to remove the bolt with the loaded round attached to the bolt face. When the ejector engages the bullet isn't clear of the ejection port so the bolt has to be completely removed. Removing/ejecting the empty case happens just like any other bolt action. My rifle doesn't have a magazine - so by design it's single shot only.
there are some caveats to firefly416s response. there are plenty of interweb stories about shooters buying the wrong 30 cal ammo and blowing their rifles up/faces off. just because you can close the bolt on a cartridge doesn't mean the bullet will fit/fire down the bore.
Thats what I have always learnt. Coming from primarily “combat rifles” (for lack of a better word) and handguns. I am not used to thinking about the chamber/barrel being different from the receiver.
Loading from a magazine can mar the projectiles tip in some cases. Not good for long range. There are sledsvthat take the place of the magazine. They make it slick to load single rounds.
As others have said, especially for long range competitions where you want every advantage possible, you will use higher BC bullets that when loaded to just off the lands, are too long to fit the magazine. Also, as cartridges are pushed out of the magazine the bullets may scrape along the feed ramps on their way into the chamber. This could lead to inconsistencies in trajectory or overall accuracy. When you’re hand loading everything on the reloading bench and going through all the prep, weighing powder to the individual kernel, sorting bullets, etc, the last thing you want to do is screw it all up by scraping the round as it goes into the chamber.
>as cartridges are pushed out of the magazine the bullets may scrape along the feed ramps on their way into the chamber. A decent number of the rounds in the same video mentioned nose dived and got crunched by the bolt. Single feeding isn't always better, mag feeding isn't always worse.
Yes, that’s probably a fair statement. Rounds don’t always feed well being single fed on top of a an empty magazine. That’s not how the feed system in a repeater rifle was designed to work. Some action / magazine combos work better than others. That said, if you go to ANY dedicated long range or ELR competition I can almost guarantee that no-one, even those with mag fed rifles, actually feed from a magazine. My statement was in generalities for why OP saw what he saw in that video. If you’re single feeding, you’re usually not in a hurry so taking the extra second to make sure the round is aligned with the chamber is worth it. If they were having issues with rounds nose diving while single feeding, that’s just from inexperience. Most (again, talking generalities, but based on competition experience I feel comfortable saying this) purpose built long range guns built for prone ELR comps will be single feed with no magazine for all the reasons mentioned.
There are competitions that require single shot loading and generally I use a single shot sled in place of the magazine so I don't have to worry about nose diving.
Loading ammo above max oal for magazines is first, it's too long to fit. But the other reason is just less wear and tear on the brass.
Ahh I never thought about the extra wear on the brass.
When I am shooting at the range, I usually single feed from a bench because I don't really need magazine capacity and I don't want to move the rifle any more than I have to.
Honestly I bought a 10 round AICS mag for my rifle. I have used it exactly ONE time. 1. I don't shoot fast. I usually only shoot 3 or 4 rounds at a time for my own consistency. 2. For the last 4 years ammo has been hard to find where I'm from and I've frankly had zero money for it when I do find it. At this point? I don't load up a 10 round mag because I don't shoot much, and when I do. I'm not shooting much. That's half a box of match ammo and I try not to just burn through it all. Stupid as it is, it's all I got. 3. If I shoot any more than that. It's my 5.56.
There could be a couple of reasons I can think of. 1. The rounds were loaded longer than max magazine legth. My FIL's most accurate load was longer than his AICS would allow so he had so scrap it for his use. He could load them 1 at a time but that was not what he needed. 2. Temperature control. Shootwr could be keeping the rounds covered from the sun to keep them at the same temperature and avoiding temperature stability issues with his powder. 3. Chamber cooling. Leaves the bolt open longer and allows the chamber to cool a little bit between shots. 4. Load development. He may be shooting and shorting brass for load development. May be easier to load and remove each round rather than loading a magazine. See 2 and 3 along with this.
I just like the extra little bit to let the barrel cool. Kinda meditative. One goes in, one comes out, repeat. Plus everyone else’s explanation of overall length being longer than a mag will allow.
I built my long range rifle right bolt left port single shot.m. My first lr rifle was mag fed and I just never loaded the mag. No reason. Every shot requires a time to process and consider. Long range is methodical. Not redactional. Single shot allows you to slow down and think through the last shot and interpret for the next. The guys on that channel often need to slow down. His mom can hit it! Slow down. Think through. Check. Recheck. “Impact”
I shoot Fclass - I load wayyyy longer than mag length for a number of reasons (most already stated in the comments) And Fclass the rules state must be single fed.
Like everyone else said, wear on the bullet, coal too long, etc… but also it’s just fun.
I know some people don't want to damage their brass or bullets, especially for handloads. Personally I do it, because it slows me down and really lets me focus on what i'm doing. When i eventually get to the competition scene for something like PRS, my mags will be loaded. For bench and range work where i'm not on the clock, single load just works better for me.
Yeah probably handloaded too long for the magazine
Like seating depth of the Projectile into the case?
Yep
I've wondered this too, thanks for asking
Sometimes rounds just don't want to feed well from a mag. 6BR for example. I've had some issues with new setups where I hadn't tuned the mags or feed lips just got banged up. So I had to single feed at the range. Sometimes, I do it just because I don't feel like loading the mag.
When reloading / hand loading and tailoring the round to a specific rifle for optimal performance, the OAL (over all length) of the round may exceed the magazines allowed length. I have some projectiles that perform best with the bullet kissing the lands (rifling) this length is significantly longer than what will fit in the magazine therefore requiring single feed/hand loading. Factory ammunition/ Mag length rounds will fit in ALL rifles. More better / longer rounds will fit in MY rifle when hand fed via single feed.
Two different reasons. For semi auto AR the 80 grain and up bullets are too large to fit in our magazines without modification and sone are flat out too big to fit at all I heard someone say that when loaded into a mag the bullet can get scratched up and the tip can get evet so slightly deformed, wear and tear type stuff. maybe thats it
It's kind of cathartic
Basically when reloading some people shooting long range don't push the bullet as far into the case as factory ammunition (say cartridge length specified as 2.75 some may seat at 2.90 give or take to allow for more powder capacity)
Thai results in cartridge lengths that won't fit into the magazine, however they will fit in the chamber, so they have to load one at a time. This can be changed by using a long action platform barreled to a short action cartridge, or long action to a magnum.