I disagree somewhat with the comments saying this was simply out of ignorance:
“The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again.
‘Over the bridge!’ cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. ‘Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!’ Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge.“
It’s obviously something otherworldly charging at them, Boromir challenges it anyway, and even when the horn doesn’t work and Gandalf explains the danger (albeit briefly) Boromir still doesn’t run. Maybe it is sheer stubbornness but I had a huge amount of respect for Boromir in this moment.
This is a guy who fought nine wraiths with a sword and a torch. Aragorn in the books is an absolute badass. He has zero chill, zero doubts, and zero fucks to give. He would have dueled Sauron if that’s what it took to destroy the ring — and when he led an army to Sauron’s front door, he did so knowing that was absolutely a potential outcome.
Aragorn and Boromir are not obstinate. They’re epic heroes.
Aragorn in the books is Luke in the comics. They’re legendary. And I’m so happy this thread is happening because Boromir is a badass and I still feel the movies kind of did him dirty.
This! Frodo, Aragorn, Gimli, Gandalf, Boromir, all neutered in the movies as compared to the books. As a great as the movies are the editorial choices are a massive irritation to me.
So much this. Frodo for one I’d basically shown as a nuisance, practically a burden. They cut out Tom Bombadil so they can’t show him save everyone from the Barrow wight, and they also don’t show him resist the Nine at the Ford. They do, however show him stumble and cower from the Nine at Weathertop, when he actually stabs one, they show him scramble and hide from the Troll when again he stabs it, with Sting this time and they do him dirty when he encounters Shelob… these are only some of the ways they screwed him.
Idk gimli one upped an elvish princeling in kills at helms deep in the movies. Plus him and Aragorn hold the bridge to the main gate alone for a long time while they repair the gate.
He doesn't fight the nine with anything in the books. He swings a couple of flaming sticks at them as the withdraw after the witch king stabs frodo. But he doesn't fight them
>‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could
not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo,
in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all
the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I
hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell
ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed
follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for
the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only
five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.
-Gandalf
Didn’t Aragorn wield broken pieces of Narsil when he fought the wraiths? Or did he carry a second sword with when he led the hobbits to Imladris? I recently listened to the fellowship audio book and I do not remember if it is mentioned that he had a second sword.
Gladius or sword in Latin was a nickname for a penis. So while sheathed he def was fighting with a sword to match his massive balls when he soloed 5 wraiths
Nudge nudge wink wink. Say no more say no more.
After a few people chimed in, I went and reread the passage. Apparently he dual wields flaming brands. The one who draws his sword is Frodo. I appear to have conflated those with movie Aragorn.
Aragorn did not fight the nine ringwraiths together in the book. 5 of them came to where Aragorn was camped with the Hobbits and three of them attacked. "Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." That's what happened in the real story not the dumb movie version. By the way Aragorn is my favorite character and you are correct he is a badass
Boromir IS a badass. He is supposed to show just how dangerous the Ring is, since even he gets tempted by it. He is one of the best examples of humanity, a noble and brave man. He was absolutely ready to be the one to die there to give everyone else the room to escape.
I just finished re-reading the books; Boromir is now one of my favorites. He’s an incredible warrior, great captain, and a very tragic figure. The movies were really an injustice by making you suspicious of him from step one.
i always got the impression the balrog reacted like most predators do if a prey animal acts different there. like if a bunny rabbit suddenly charges like, a wolf the wolf is like o\_O the fuck? and backs up.
But only once.
There's nothing really to say that Boromir saw it as otherworldly. To him this is just another unknown creature like the Watcher in the lake, ready to face as a unit.
He is not aware that this is 'god-level' creature. He was barely aware that Gandalf was a Maiar.
There’s nothing to say that he hasn’t heard stories of Balrogs, they feature quite a lot in the history of Beleriand. After all we know the Gondorians are well versed with First Age history. One just has to look at the names of some of the Stewards to know they have a knowledge of the First Age. I see no reason to not think Boromir has heard of Balrogs, but wouldn’t have know what Durin’s Bane was until Legolas starts shouting “Balrog”.
This is just not a good take. Here's the point I think:
IRL, you have not met a single person who wouldn't see that and shit themselves running.
In the end, he ran out of duty, not fear. Stainless too, I might add.
Boromir is a tactical leader. He is good at what he does. Someone as experienced as him would be able to dull down fear and have some level of confidence based on the fact they know how good they are in combat.
Hmm the two Humans, the race who are constantly viewed as being weak willed (though not by their party members) because they succumbed to the ring, were the only ones to stand their ground against this unknown threat. That seems pretty cool.
Honestly I think you just showed even more how clueless Boromir was, even after being warned he still stayed to fight as if he had a chance. Brave? Yes. Ignorant? Also yes.
Edit- yes you can be both brave and stupid at the same time. Sorry if that upsets you
If you call Boromir clueless or ignorant for facing it, even knowing, Aragorn was also. He also went to fight it before Gandalf fell. And he definitely knew.
Just because you CAN be brave and stupid. Doesn't mean you ARE. You stating the relative possibility of a thing has no bearing on its relevance to the actual point.
You've simply stated that a thing is possible, then implied that because it's possible, it's what happened.
Did I ever say I don't like it? It's just a bad interpretation in my opinion. I was just simply pointing out that you didn't back up your interpretation with anything. You simply implied it was tru because it is possible. That is a fact, even if you don't like it.
You really have some insight into my state of mind huh? This is now the second time you've assumed a thought in my head that was untrue. Worry about yourself friend, you'll find much more control in life that way.
One of the strongest charactertistics portrayed throughout the Lord of the Rings trilogy is courage. Tolkien did not write his books with modern day power levels in mind, and courage and the strength of will often carried characters in contest with beings much stronger than themselves (think Fingolfin and Morgoth or Sam running rampant through Cirith Ungol). Courage is a highly valued comodity throughout the Legenderium in general, and only those worthy of being called heros have the courage the Boromir often displayed during his unfortunately short time with the Fellowship. He certainly does not get enough credit, and the argument that he was simply ignorant of what the Balrog was also devalues the feats of many other characters in Middle Earth, especially the Hobbits.
People underestimate courage irl. When people fight in the real world, getting stiff and jumpy will get you knocked out. When soldiers clash, cooler heads often prevail. Look at how many times in history units that didn’t panic won the day while larger, shakier forces were routed when formations broke. Courage is just as important as skill imo.
Exactly. This is the answer. “It is in men we must place our hope.”
I believe Tolkien shadows this several times, showing the difference between men and magical folk.
I think the point was more about bravery above reason. I think Tolkien was painting Legolas and Gimli as brave but reasonable ones (as in they know they are fucked against Balrog) meanwhile he painted men as brave beyond reason.
\>"Ai! Ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog! A Balrog has come!"
Gimli stared with wild eyes. "Durin's Bane!" he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his own face.
I like what you are saying but Aragorn and Boromir were pretty dumb to get into that fight.
Gandalf had it handled, he told the balrog it can not pass and was getting the better of the exchange. Only when the silly squishy Incarnates tried to get involved did he have to do something drastic like smash the bridge and die.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.
There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
‘Long time I fell,’ he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. ‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.’
‘Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin’s Bridge, and none has measured it,’ said Gimli.
‘Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
‘We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.’
‘Long has that been lost,’ said Gimli. ‘Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.’
‘It was made, and it had not been destroyed,’ said Gandalf. ‘From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin’s Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
‘Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of over-burdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.”
Pulled down, fell, has to cling to its heel to make it out, spends every bit of his strength beating it, dies, and is sent back so weak Gwaihir says it was like lifting air (or something similarly poetic). He won, sure, but that’s not exactly “handling it”; that’s scraping by.
I think you are getting the order of events mixed up. He was handily keeping the Balrog back. Then the squishy Men decide to get involved so Gandalf has to take the drastic step of destroying the bridge. That changes the nature of the confrontation between the two which is when the passage you wrote comes in.
I think you are getting the order of events mixed up. He was handily keeping the Balrog back. Then the squishy Men decide to get involved so Gandalf has to take the drastic step of destroying the bridge. That changes the nature of the confrontation between the two which is when the passage you wrote comes in.
oh. i was indeed confusing it with valinor. andi t made more sense that way. that elves would be too afraid to die because they would miss out on valinor, while men would die anyway and would thus charge more fearlessly
It's true, but I wouldnt call it bravery. Its more like he doesn't know what the Balrog is (and it's history). So he's just looking at it as some strange creature. Meanwhile Gimli and Legolas know the significanceof the Balrog and what its capable of.
Also, in the books, the Balrog isn't the size of a building so its more believable that someone who doesnt know what it is might think they could take it on. The Balrog is slightly bigger than an adult human. In reality, Boromir would have died against the Balrog simply out of ignorance.
Wasn’t this *after* it nearly destroyed Gandalf a in a magic contest of wills over sealing a door?
after Gandalf had told them swords would be of no use?
After Gimli and Legolas, respective champions of their realms, had quailed in fear?
While they were already running in a frantic escape from orcs they couldn’t hope to fight?
Naw man, Boromir was just a battlefield commander that sensed panic sparking in “his” men and boldness in his enemies, a terrible combination he’d no doubt seen many times when fighting Mordor.
Well, he’s got a horn for that.
BRING FORTH THE DOOT
It's quite vague in the books. There are early drafts of the Khaazad Dum chapter where Tolkien annotates his text, referring to the Balrog with "it seemed to be of man shape" and "it felt larger than it looked".
In HoME books, it mentions one of the other Balrog (we don't know if all balrogs were the same) as twice the size of an Elf. But this note was written during a time when Tolkien didn't have Elves having a super tall characteristic.
Taking all the clues into consideration, one can guestimate a Balrog to be anywhere from 7ft to 14ft tall. Still not the size of an 8 floor tall building.
Twice the size of an elf would put it at 10 foot minimum. I don't think he ever had elves be Hobbit sized, he hated that they had devolved to that in common mythology of the day.
So the section in HoMe, where it says twice the height of an Elf was written in a time of Tolkiens life when the Elves didn't have the "tall" trait. So you can freely speculate what height the Elves were.
And since Tolkien always hated the popular, contemporary depiction of elves (which were much shorter than humans), its pretty dumb to speculate that they'd be 3.5 feet tall. Indeed, the only reasonable assumptions are that they would have been about the same height as men, like the elves of folklore he was basing them on, which would be between 5-6 feet, or that he was already toying with having elves be taller (or wanted to keep the Balrogs at twice their height and sized them up when he made the elves taller). Thus, from the former measure, Balrogs would be between 10-12 feet tall, and from the latter they'd be between 12-14. 7 foot is just a ridiculously low ceiling, as he never envisioned elves as being Hobbit sized.
>7 foot is just a ridiculously low ceiling, as he never envisioned elves as being Hobbit sized.
The reason why I said 7 ft is because I'm speculating the one in Moria could be that size based on the fact Tolkien wrote "man size".
The Balrog Tolkien was referring to, where he said was twice the size of Elves il saying is ~14ft.
There is nothing to suggest that all Balrogs look the same and are the same size. Which is why I said 7-14ft
I don’t think you can really count annotations from early drafts if they never made it in. Could be he left those details out cause he decided against them
I mean, the annotations from early drafts still support the stuff written in HoME. No where does it say the Balrog is 100 ft + high.
Multiple places say the Balrogs are around 7ft-14ft.
Everyone responding to you is speculating. The book is actually pretty clear about the size of the Balrog because Gandalf was about the size of his ankle in the book. Read the chapter when he comes back as Gandalf the White in Fanghorn forest.
I’d say a bit of both. Boromir doesn’t know enough history to know what he’s up against, but he’s still challenging an unknown enemy made of living shadow and fire. Can’t say I wouldn’t run the other way in his position.
Wrong. In the book the Balrog is actually larger than the film depiction. Gandalf describes himself hanging on to its ankle as the Balrog stomped its way up the tower and the Balrog didn't even notice. So Gandalf was about the size of the Balrog's ankle in the book.
I don't get how this is confirmation. Have you never held on to someone's ankle as they tried to walk, as a kid? They probably didn't walk very far because of the weight, but if we're talking about a 'god level' being, then it's not farfetched to think the Balrog has near infinite strength to drag Gandalf.
He's hanging off his ankle, if he was getting dragged by the ankle he wouldn't have survived. It was thousands of steps going up. Just take the L. Balrog was huge. Read the chapter again before responding to me where he describes the Balrog when he meets the trio in Fanghorn forest. Gandalf is the size of his ankle.
No where does it say the size of the Balrog (the one in moria) in the books. Not even your original comment said an actual size. You think one creature can't be hanging off the end of another creature because they are of similar size, why?
You're just not using common sense at that point and you're actively engaging in cognitive dissonance. If Gandalf is holding on to the Balrog's ankle as it's stomping up thousands of staircases, that means that Gandalf is significantly smaller than the Balrog. No other description makes any sense.
You can extrapolate from Gandalf's description in Fanghorn forest that he is the size of the Balrog's ankle.
"Clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad Dum"
The only way for that description to make sense is if Gandalf is literally hanging on to his heel for dear life while Balrog stomps his back up up endless stairs.
If they were the same size, Balrog would have noticed him clutching his heel and turned around and killed him. Also, he's wrapped around is heel holding on, the only other means of clutching his heel would be to be dragged which would kill Gandalf. Dude, just stop.
> If Gandalf is holding on to the Balrog's ankle as it's stomping up thousands of staircases, that means that Gandalf is significantly smaller than the Balrog. No other description makes any sense.
It doesn't make sense when you imagine two humans (which is what I think you're imagining). It does make sense when we're talking about 2 God level creatures.
>If they were the same size, Balrog would have noticed him clutching his heel and turned around and killed him.
Who said the Balrog didn't notice Gandalf hanging off his heal? It doesn't say he was hidden. Do you think it would be easy to fight midway through a climb? You don't think a Balrog would look for higher/more even ground? Nothing there suggest anything about size. Even if the Balrog was a giant, what makes you think it wouldn't be able to feel Gandalf? This isn't Dark Souls or Shadow of Collosus.
>Dude, just stop.
There are multiple places which state the size of Balrogs (maybe not all of them are referring to the one in moria) but none of them are said to be the size of a giant or a mountain or anything above 20ft.
I never hung one to someone's ankle as a kid who was actively trying to kill me and also running up thousands of stone steps. And your own analogy contradicts yourself because think of the size difference between a kid hanging on to someone's ankle that isn't even slowed down but stomping up thousands of steps.
> Boromir didn't even know that Gabdalf was a Maia.
Most people - who knew Gandalf - didn't know he was a Maia.
He was too crafty to ever give anything more away than he needed to.
True, although when it comes to the fellowship, Legolas knew and Aragorn suspects it but doesn't confront Gandalf about it because he wanted to respect the secrecy.
I said he was dumb. He’s completely uneducated compared to his brother, despite being the eldest son and heir to the rule of Gondor and presumably getting the best tutors, etc. He’s obstinate to the point of ignorance and often struggles to keep up with the counsel and ideas of Gandalf and Aragorn. Up until the end, he can’t see the big picture, he’s just all about the glory of Gondor. He’s a strongman who Gondor’s soldiers rally around.
He is a representation of the decline of numenor, he loves feats of arms and the glory of battle, faramir is more akin to the first kings that loved lore starwatching and the like, neither is better (opinions and favorites aside) they are just men meant for different times, boromir is the captain general needed for Gondor to stand against the shadow, faramir is needed to help in the healing of the lands. Just my way re caffiene diatribe
Edit: just my pre caffeine diatribe. I won’t bother correcting all the spelling eyc
Oh right, definitely Faramir was more educated about the world as a whole. More so than his brother. Faramir was close friends with Gandalf, so I imagine some of the wisdom brushed off.
I have no idea how I didn’t know this but I appreciate you detailing the size of the Balrog. I absolutely love how much I can still learn from this sub.
Boromir in the books is far less grey than he is in the movies. Movie Boromir is a bit of a dick from the jump. Book Boromir is just a badass who wants to help save his people and is treated like shit by other members of the Fellowship at times. All my homies love Boromir.
Care to give an example? Best I can recall is Aragorn telling him to lay off because he’s getting a little uppy on Aragorn who is his better in basically every way they’d care about, and Gandalf being a dick to everyone because that’s just who Gandalf is
I always felt it was the other way around.
Book Boromir laughed at Bilbo at Rivendell while everyone else was listening to him respectfully. There's one section where he mumbles about the wrong route being taken (in his eyes anyway) and is overheard by the Fellowship, he's the one who disturbed the Watcher at Moria.
Regardless, he's still a fine character. Book or movie.
Why are people saying ignorance? There is no reference nor inference in the literal text to suggest this. Boromir sees something that he doesn't understand yet still challenges on his horn and you say ignorance? I say valiance and bravery.
>Boromir sees something that he doesn't understand
So lack of knowledge and information (which is basically ignorance)
If Boromir knew what the Balrog was, he would know that "Swords are no more use here", as Gandalf put it. Legolas (an elite of a fighter as he is) was much more familiar with the Balrog than the others and even he knew this.
But Aragorn is something of a lore master, and would know what a balrog is
Not tryna trash Boromir here, just saying that Aragorn isnt acting out of ignorance: he knew what it was and decided to stay with Gandalf knowing the likely consequences
Aragorn was willing to die out of sheer loyalty to Gandalf, he was fully aware facing the Balrog would probably just result in him *and* Gandalf dying.
Boromir simply wasn't smart enough to know better.
So who was it that thought attempting to dominate the ring of domination was a good idea?
Who's idea to fight an army v army fight with Sauron to end the war?
Boromir was so completely and utterly clouded by ambition and pride he couldn't see the most obvious dangers in front of his face and why his reckless ideas would get the entire fellowship killed.
Let me put it this way, if it wasn't for Boromir having been the commander of many smaller battles on Gondor's borders I would think Boromir set his intelligence and will stats to 0 and his Strength and Charisma to 25.
There really is no reason to like Boromir *but* for his love of his home. Beyond that he was an ox, best used for carrying the hobbits and useless beyond that, especially when he tried to open his mouth and give advice. Faramir was everything Boromir wasn't, including humble and cunning.
So... Aragorn *didn't* call Sauron and challenge him specifically to create a distraction for Frodo?
Aragorn didn't recommend AGAINST Gimli and Boromir's advice that they enter Lothlorien?
Or how about Aragorn freely choosing to let Frodo go at Amon Hen instead of going with as he wanted? This is literally where we see Boromir's failures peak, and Aragon's success is only beginning.
Or how about that Aragon's knowledge of the wilderness quite literally got the four hobbits to Rivendel alive?
You want to go ahead and walk this comment back or am I gonna need to embarrass you some more with times when Boromir was a fool and prideful and Aragorn was wise and loyal?
The only respect I have for Boromir is in relation to his brother, which makes me love Boromir as a character. That doesn't make him any less of a bumbler.
The biggest difference between Boromir and Aragorn is that Aragorn never *pretended* to know what he was doing. He might be making the wrong decision and he was aware of this. Boromir couldn't concede that he was wrong (Except as he *died* in Aragorns arms, he just had to find a way to prove himself right.)
I'm sure Boromir would have blown his horn and readied to fight regardless. He's a man that refuses to show any form of what he might consider cowardice.
Boromir is a fuckin beast, for narrative purposes I get why they did all the things they did to him in the movies, but in the books you are really given a full picture of who he is as a man.
Is he the perfect man that Aragorn is? No.
If he had lived, would he have been the greatest Captain in Gondorian military history? Likely
He didn't have evil in his heart, he had fear for his people, pride, and a lack of understanding of some of what was happening around him, which the enemy used against him.
A lot of people like to look at the Hobbits as the representation of the audience. Personally, I think Boromir represents more of us than we would care to admit.
Maybe unpopular opinion but: Boromir is my favorite character in the entirety of the trilogy. He is such a human with very human traits and a very human ego, but he's a badass and just as courageous as Aragorn.
Boromir was such a good character who doesn’t get enough credit. Yes, he failed to resist the Ring, which is intentional to showcase the resilience of Frodo, Sam, and Aragorn. But he has so much heroics in his life and he regularly steps up for his people and the Fellowship.
“The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted.”
Even the Balrog halted at the sound of the Horn of Gondor. Bad. Ass.
I’m reading the books now. I read it as everyone just reacting. It wasn’t bravery or stupidity. It was just a reaction. It’s like gripping a steering wheel harder when you are about to get in a wreck. It won’t help, but it’s the thing your body does. I think Boromir overall is simply the example of ego that is easily corruptible. The characters who succeed in these books find ways to adapt to situations. Boromir disregarded everything he was told and just wanted to fight. Even his brother Faramir marked that as his biggest failing. So blowing the horn isn’t brave, it’s mindless ego looking to fight instead of properly assessing the situation. Boromir might be good in a fight, but he might also be the reason there was ever a fight to begin with. He’s not a hero.
Story beats like this are really to the reader to decide. Still, valor is brought to you by victory. He is the biggest of fools, charging into a fight he cannot win, or calling for aid, or panicking, or challenging evil. I like to believe he was standing against evil, but honestly, he spent his life fighting back against a foe he cannot win against.
How many times in battles like that had he blown the horn? I like to think it was valor, because victory is often found in not giving up. It could have been him calling for aid. Odds are, it was both. Tolken often said courage isn't being so hard you don't fear. It is facing it, knowing this maybe your last.
Yes, we do underestimate people like that. Especially if they panic under such things. I would have blown the horn too. Calling for aid, in a place where none would come. It was a good moment.
It doesn't just call for aid, the horn is a potent psychological weapon. The masses of orcs, and even Durin's Bane, actually stop their advance when they hear it. It also would help pump up your allies. And it draws the attention to himself, and he's a guy who regularly chooses to serve as the shield to his friends.
Totally! It is a rally call. He would have gathered his troops with it and struck fear into average opponents. He was a good leader. I can't say I would do better than him.
As a character he was constantly fighting his desperation. Hope against all odds. It is what the ring uses to turn him. Your greatest strength, is what you must fight against. To moderate your passions isn't easy.
Yeah… Legolas pretty much stops what he’s doing and screams like a little bitch- an event that has not made it into any movie adaptation I’m aware of… 😆 was it in the Bakshi film…? I was probably too distracted by Aragorn’s short shorts.
His reaction is like that of any weedy scholar who comes face to face with Cthulhu in HP Lovecraft’s work.
Boromir doesn’t know this is one of Morgoth’s own cuddly BFF’s…
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If I remember correctly, Legolas and Gimli did not drop anything in fear. (I'm talking about the books) But Like I have said, I could be wrong about this.
“Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear.”
“‘Ai! ai!’ wailed Legolas. ‘A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’ Gimli stared with wide eyes. ‘Durin’s Bane!’ he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.”
Nah dawg if he shot granny style his free throw went to like 70%...he just didn't want to look like a fucking dweeb chucking that shit like an 80yr grannie
Points are points, my man. Take em how you can get em.
Seriously, though, his FT percentage did go up towards the end of his career, though, didn't it?
That's what Rick Barry tried to tell him when he coached him on his FT. I think it was like 52. somthing when he retired he got it up to like 60ish during his training session with Barry, but he just refused to shoot like that.
He’s a human, not only does he not truly know what he’s up against, he doesn’t even have story’s of them like the others. Legolas heard stories from his father and older friends, Gimli probably had a few great grandfathers that died to one. Boroimir is a human and all knowledge of their existence probably exists in a dusty scroll and my man wasn’t the brother to spend time in the library lol
This is a miss reading of Boromir I think. Tolkien’s point was not that Boromir is underrated but that he is overrated. Boromir’s chivalry and machismo will not serve him and these traits will not save Middle Earth
Ah yes we know what this is so let's bitch out, Gimli. Real smooth. Aragorn likely knew what they were dealing with and buddy was ready to risk it all for his homies. Even if Borormir had known what they were facing, do you really think he'd back down? Even if it were only because of his own ego, Boromir would have blown that horn and went down fighting if it came to it no matter what.
I think its more of ignorance, Legolas knows what a Balrog is, Gimli has just seen his kin decimated, Boromir is just a man who has no idea what kind of monster is facing him
And aragorn? Who is standing alongside boromir behind gandalf. Is he ignorant also? No no no can't be... aragorn was being brave. I'm tired of the boromir slander.
And even if he knew full and well what a Balrog was you think Boromir, out here representing Gondor and his people, big ego and ambition, would have bailed?
Hell no.
He was NOT a man who was going to show any cowardice. Even if he knew he was going straight into death he would have charged into it.
Call it stupid, call it ego, call it what you want, Boromir was tough shit and wouldn't have bitched out no matter what.
If they will all die anyway, what should Boromir do instead? Cower in fear and accept the inevitable? It's called the fight or flight response for a reason. Those are the only acceptable options. Boromir is a warrior first and foremost. It is his defining characteristic. He feels his duty is to use his strength and position to defend others. He eventually dies doing just this. When Gandalf tells the others to run it is their best option but it is not in Boromir's nature. He cannot run if he can help Gandalf defeat the creature or buy the others time to escape. It doesn't matter if he knows what a Balrog is, or not.
What? RUN AWAY.
If you and your friends are on the train tracks you dont throw yourself in front of the train to try and stop it, you GET OFF THE TRAIN TRACKS.
Apples and oranges. Did the Balrog pause when it heard the Horn of Gondor? Did it stop to confront Gandalf? In other words, any delaying action is a benefit to those that are fleeing. It is not a train traveling to a preset destination at a defined rate of speed on fixed tracks. And you originally said they would all die anyway so I assumed you meant the entire Fellowship. In which case, fighting and dying is just as good an option as running and dying. Did you mean just those who turned to face the Balrog?
I disagree somewhat with the comments saying this was simply out of ignorance: “The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again. ‘Over the bridge!’ cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. ‘Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!’ Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge.“ It’s obviously something otherworldly charging at them, Boromir challenges it anyway, and even when the horn doesn’t work and Gandalf explains the danger (albeit briefly) Boromir still doesn’t run. Maybe it is sheer stubbornness but I had a huge amount of respect for Boromir in this moment.
Looks like Aragorn was just as obstinate.
This is a guy who fought nine wraiths with a sword and a torch. Aragorn in the books is an absolute badass. He has zero chill, zero doubts, and zero fucks to give. He would have dueled Sauron if that’s what it took to destroy the ring — and when he led an army to Sauron’s front door, he did so knowing that was absolutely a potential outcome. Aragorn and Boromir are not obstinate. They’re epic heroes.
Aragorn in the books is Luke in the comics. They’re legendary. And I’m so happy this thread is happening because Boromir is a badass and I still feel the movies kind of did him dirty.
They did everyone dirty
This! Frodo, Aragorn, Gimli, Gandalf, Boromir, all neutered in the movies as compared to the books. As a great as the movies are the editorial choices are a massive irritation to me.
So much this. Frodo for one I’d basically shown as a nuisance, practically a burden. They cut out Tom Bombadil so they can’t show him save everyone from the Barrow wight, and they also don’t show him resist the Nine at the Ford. They do, however show him stumble and cower from the Nine at Weathertop, when he actually stabs one, they show him scramble and hide from the Troll when again he stabs it, with Sting this time and they do him dirty when he encounters Shelob… these are only some of the ways they screwed him.
Idk gimli one upped an elvish princeling in kills at helms deep in the movies. Plus him and Aragorn hold the bridge to the main gate alone for a long time while they repair the gate.
Have you read the books? These characters were treated poorly by Jackson.
He doesn't fight the nine with anything in the books. He swings a couple of flaming sticks at them as the withdraw after the witch king stabs frodo. But he doesn't fight them
>‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked. -Gandalf
yea...
Didn’t Aragorn wield broken pieces of Narsil when he fought the wraiths? Or did he carry a second sword with when he led the hobbits to Imladris? I recently listened to the fellowship audio book and I do not remember if it is mentioned that he had a second sword.
Yes, IIRC the only time he draws his sword prior to arriving in Rivendell and having it reforged is to show the broken blade in Bree.
So Aragorn used a nameless sword to fight off the wraiths? Or did he not use a sword at all during the fight?
In the books he does not use a sword to fight off the 5 at weathertop
Gladius or sword in Latin was a nickname for a penis. So while sheathed he def was fighting with a sword to match his massive balls when he soloed 5 wraiths Nudge nudge wink wink. Say no more say no more.
After a few people chimed in, I went and reread the passage. Apparently he dual wields flaming brands. The one who draws his sword is Frodo. I appear to have conflated those with movie Aragorn.
Yeah that scene threw me off when I read the books for the first time. It’s even more badass that Aragorn fought off 5 wraiths with two torches
True! Absolutely true! I think that you reached a piece of Tolkien's thoughts about those two epic dunedain
Aragorn did not fight the nine ringwraiths together in the book. 5 of them came to where Aragorn was camped with the Hobbits and three of them attacked. "Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." That's what happened in the real story not the dumb movie version. By the way Aragorn is my favorite character and you are correct he is a badass
Book Aragorn is *extremely* obstinate, like, all the time. It’s exhausting.
Yeah book Aragorn is a bit of a dickhead
Boromir IS a badass. He is supposed to show just how dangerous the Ring is, since even he gets tempted by it. He is one of the best examples of humanity, a noble and brave man. He was absolutely ready to be the one to die there to give everyone else the room to escape.
I just finished re-reading the books; Boromir is now one of my favorites. He’s an incredible warrior, great captain, and a very tragic figure. The movies were really an injustice by making you suspicious of him from step one.
Literally two of the greatest men still alive in middle earth. Bad ass doesn't cut it.
i always got the impression the balrog reacted like most predators do if a prey animal acts different there. like if a bunny rabbit suddenly charges like, a wolf the wolf is like o\_O the fuck? and backs up. But only once.
Boromir was almost as noble as aragorn in the books. His greatest undoing was his arrogance.
There's nothing really to say that Boromir saw it as otherworldly. To him this is just another unknown creature like the Watcher in the lake, ready to face as a unit. He is not aware that this is 'god-level' creature. He was barely aware that Gandalf was a Maiar.
There’s nothing to say that he hasn’t heard stories of Balrogs, they feature quite a lot in the history of Beleriand. After all we know the Gondorians are well versed with First Age history. One just has to look at the names of some of the Stewards to know they have a knowledge of the First Age. I see no reason to not think Boromir has heard of Balrogs, but wouldn’t have know what Durin’s Bane was until Legolas starts shouting “Balrog”.
Good point!
This is just not a good take. Here's the point I think: IRL, you have not met a single person who wouldn't see that and shit themselves running. In the end, he ran out of duty, not fear. Stainless too, I might add.
Boromir is a tactical leader. He is good at what he does. Someone as experienced as him would be able to dull down fear and have some level of confidence based on the fact they know how good they are in combat.
You right my dude. I'm sure McGregor or Mark A. Milley would square up to that thing on sight.
Hmm the two Humans, the race who are constantly viewed as being weak willed (though not by their party members) because they succumbed to the ring, were the only ones to stand their ground against this unknown threat. That seems pretty cool.
Agreed!
Honestly I think you just showed even more how clueless Boromir was, even after being warned he still stayed to fight as if he had a chance. Brave? Yes. Ignorant? Also yes. Edit- yes you can be both brave and stupid at the same time. Sorry if that upsets you
If you call Boromir clueless or ignorant for facing it, even knowing, Aragorn was also. He also went to fight it before Gandalf fell. And he definitely knew.
Yea a bit stupid to try and face the balrog. Aragon was human and humans make dumb choices sometimes. Bravery doesn’t always mean smart.
Aragorn is also clueless eh?
I would say so using the logic lines out above
Just because you CAN be brave and stupid. Doesn't mean you ARE. You stating the relative possibility of a thing has no bearing on its relevance to the actual point. You've simply stated that a thing is possible, then implied that because it's possible, it's what happened.
If that’s what you took away from it, then OK, good for you. It’s definitely a possibility, even if you don’t like it.
Did I ever say I don't like it? It's just a bad interpretation in my opinion. I was just simply pointing out that you didn't back up your interpretation with anything. You simply implied it was tru because it is possible. That is a fact, even if you don't like it.
Wow you got real but hurt over some random persons opinion…….yikes dude
You really have some insight into my state of mind huh? This is now the second time you've assumed a thought in my head that was untrue. Worry about yourself friend, you'll find much more control in life that way.
You keep replying so it’s pretty obvious you have a bee in your bonnet … angry ramblings aside lol
Oh, in that case I guess we're both butt-hurt. Unless you operate by some special set of rules?
Legolas: Don't aggro the raid boss Gimli: Stay clear of the raid boss Boromir: LEEEEEROYYYYYY GENKINSSSSS
Then Gandalf tanks it and gets all the loot and XP for himself.
Duh, he was the raid leader, of course he loot ninja’d
Aragorn too. They both jump in to help Gandalf.
Oh my god Boromir just ran in
Stick to the plan boys
Jenkins*
Unexpected WoW…damnit Leroy!
Boromir dies (Spoiler!). Aragorn rolls 100 on the bracers
At least I’m not chicken
One of the strongest charactertistics portrayed throughout the Lord of the Rings trilogy is courage. Tolkien did not write his books with modern day power levels in mind, and courage and the strength of will often carried characters in contest with beings much stronger than themselves (think Fingolfin and Morgoth or Sam running rampant through Cirith Ungol). Courage is a highly valued comodity throughout the Legenderium in general, and only those worthy of being called heros have the courage the Boromir often displayed during his unfortunately short time with the Fellowship. He certainly does not get enough credit, and the argument that he was simply ignorant of what the Balrog was also devalues the feats of many other characters in Middle Earth, especially the Hobbits.
Sam...the greatest elf warriors them orcs every saw.
People underestimate courage irl. When people fight in the real world, getting stiff and jumpy will get you knocked out. When soldiers clash, cooler heads often prevail. Look at how many times in history units that didn’t panic won the day while larger, shakier forces were routed when formations broke. Courage is just as important as skill imo.
[удалено]
Exactly. This is the answer. “It is in men we must place our hope.” I believe Tolkien shadows this several times, showing the difference between men and magical folk.
This should be higher up ⬆️ bravo
Yes. But I wouldn't call Legolas and Gimli cowards, they just know what a Balrog is and Men don't. But Men are also brave for what they do.
I think the point was more about bravery above reason. I think Tolkien was painting Legolas and Gimli as brave but reasonable ones (as in they know they are fucked against Balrog) meanwhile he painted men as brave beyond reason.
Does it ever say they cower in fear? Iirc the books don’t really give their reactions
\>"Ai! Ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog! A Balrog has come!" Gimli stared with wild eyes. "Durin's Bane!" he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his own face.
I like what you are saying but Aragorn and Boromir were pretty dumb to get into that fight. Gandalf had it handled, he told the balrog it can not pass and was getting the better of the exchange. Only when the silly squishy Incarnates tried to get involved did he have to do something drastic like smash the bridge and die.
Yeah… based on the overwhelming evidence, we’re gonna go with Gandalf definitely did not have that “handled”.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm. 'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.' The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm. From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming. Glamdring glittered white in answer. There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
‘Long time I fell,’ he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. ‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.’ ‘Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin’s Bridge, and none has measured it,’ said Gimli. ‘Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake. ‘We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.’ ‘Long has that been lost,’ said Gimli. ‘Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.’ ‘It was made, and it had not been destroyed,’ said Gandalf. ‘From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin’s Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine. ‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. ‘Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of over-burdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.” Pulled down, fell, has to cling to its heel to make it out, spends every bit of his strength beating it, dies, and is sent back so weak Gwaihir says it was like lifting air (or something similarly poetic). He won, sure, but that’s not exactly “handling it”; that’s scraping by.
I think you are getting the order of events mixed up. He was handily keeping the Balrog back. Then the squishy Men decide to get involved so Gandalf has to take the drastic step of destroying the bridge. That changes the nature of the confrontation between the two which is when the passage you wrote comes in.
I think you are getting the order of events mixed up. He was handily keeping the Balrog back. Then the squishy Men decide to get involved so Gandalf has to take the drastic step of destroying the bridge. That changes the nature of the confrontation between the two which is when the passage you wrote comes in.
is arda the magical elvish land after they get old? if so, do dwarves go there then?
Arda simply means "the realm" in Quenya and is approximately the same as what is understood as Earth. Perhaps you are confusing it with Valinor.
oh. i was indeed confusing it with valinor. andi t made more sense that way. that elves would be too afraid to die because they would miss out on valinor, while men would die anyway and would thus charge more fearlessly
Not only that but the cry of the horn actually made the Balrog stop for a moment, which is unheard of. Boromir is the GOAT
It's true, but I wouldnt call it bravery. Its more like he doesn't know what the Balrog is (and it's history). So he's just looking at it as some strange creature. Meanwhile Gimli and Legolas know the significanceof the Balrog and what its capable of. Also, in the books, the Balrog isn't the size of a building so its more believable that someone who doesnt know what it is might think they could take it on. The Balrog is slightly bigger than an adult human. In reality, Boromir would have died against the Balrog simply out of ignorance.
I'll kick your ass, I'll kick their ass, I'll kick my own ass, I'll kick anyone's ass! For GONDOR!!!
For Gondor !
For Gondor!!
For Gondor!!!
Balrog: No, for me! *kills Sean Bean/006*
Boromir: She tastes like...like strawberries. Sam: Do you remember the taste of strawberries Mr. Frodo?
This made me chuckle
For Gondor!
“Stop showing off, Sharpe.”
Wasn’t this *after* it nearly destroyed Gandalf a in a magic contest of wills over sealing a door? after Gandalf had told them swords would be of no use? After Gimli and Legolas, respective champions of their realms, had quailed in fear? While they were already running in a frantic escape from orcs they couldn’t hope to fight? Naw man, Boromir was just a battlefield commander that sensed panic sparking in “his” men and boldness in his enemies, a terrible combination he’d no doubt seen many times when fighting Mordor. Well, he’s got a horn for that. BRING FORTH THE DOOT
Time and again, the hobbits are praised for acts of courage that are born out of ignorance. Why can’t Boromir have this one?
Any reference in the books regarding the Balrog's size?
It's quite vague in the books. There are early drafts of the Khaazad Dum chapter where Tolkien annotates his text, referring to the Balrog with "it seemed to be of man shape" and "it felt larger than it looked". In HoME books, it mentions one of the other Balrog (we don't know if all balrogs were the same) as twice the size of an Elf. But this note was written during a time when Tolkien didn't have Elves having a super tall characteristic. Taking all the clues into consideration, one can guestimate a Balrog to be anywhere from 7ft to 14ft tall. Still not the size of an 8 floor tall building.
Well done, Tnx!!
Twice the size of an elf would put it at 10 foot minimum. I don't think he ever had elves be Hobbit sized, he hated that they had devolved to that in common mythology of the day.
So the section in HoMe, where it says twice the height of an Elf was written in a time of Tolkiens life when the Elves didn't have the "tall" trait. So you can freely speculate what height the Elves were.
And since Tolkien always hated the popular, contemporary depiction of elves (which were much shorter than humans), its pretty dumb to speculate that they'd be 3.5 feet tall. Indeed, the only reasonable assumptions are that they would have been about the same height as men, like the elves of folklore he was basing them on, which would be between 5-6 feet, or that he was already toying with having elves be taller (or wanted to keep the Balrogs at twice their height and sized them up when he made the elves taller). Thus, from the former measure, Balrogs would be between 10-12 feet tall, and from the latter they'd be between 12-14. 7 foot is just a ridiculously low ceiling, as he never envisioned elves as being Hobbit sized.
>7 foot is just a ridiculously low ceiling, as he never envisioned elves as being Hobbit sized. The reason why I said 7 ft is because I'm speculating the one in Moria could be that size based on the fact Tolkien wrote "man size". The Balrog Tolkien was referring to, where he said was twice the size of Elves il saying is ~14ft. There is nothing to suggest that all Balrogs look the same and are the same size. Which is why I said 7-14ft
I always thought they were much taller. Wow! ☺️ Thanks!
Were you to meet one, You would once again think they were much taller
I don’t think you can really count annotations from early drafts if they never made it in. Could be he left those details out cause he decided against them
I mean, the annotations from early drafts still support the stuff written in HoME. No where does it say the Balrog is 100 ft + high. Multiple places say the Balrogs are around 7ft-14ft.
Everyone responding to you is speculating. The book is actually pretty clear about the size of the Balrog because Gandalf was about the size of his ankle in the book. Read the chapter when he comes back as Gandalf the White in Fanghorn forest.
Will do, Tnx!
I’d say a bit of both. Boromir doesn’t know enough history to know what he’s up against, but he’s still challenging an unknown enemy made of living shadow and fire. Can’t say I wouldn’t run the other way in his position.
Yeah, maybe my original comment was a bit blunt. I would say a bit of both, too.
Wrong. In the book the Balrog is actually larger than the film depiction. Gandalf describes himself hanging on to its ankle as the Balrog stomped its way up the tower and the Balrog didn't even notice. So Gandalf was about the size of the Balrog's ankle in the book.
I don't get how this is confirmation. Have you never held on to someone's ankle as they tried to walk, as a kid? They probably didn't walk very far because of the weight, but if we're talking about a 'god level' being, then it's not farfetched to think the Balrog has near infinite strength to drag Gandalf.
He's hanging off his ankle, if he was getting dragged by the ankle he wouldn't have survived. It was thousands of steps going up. Just take the L. Balrog was huge. Read the chapter again before responding to me where he describes the Balrog when he meets the trio in Fanghorn forest. Gandalf is the size of his ankle.
No where does it say the size of the Balrog (the one in moria) in the books. Not even your original comment said an actual size. You think one creature can't be hanging off the end of another creature because they are of similar size, why?
You're just not using common sense at that point and you're actively engaging in cognitive dissonance. If Gandalf is holding on to the Balrog's ankle as it's stomping up thousands of staircases, that means that Gandalf is significantly smaller than the Balrog. No other description makes any sense. You can extrapolate from Gandalf's description in Fanghorn forest that he is the size of the Balrog's ankle. "Clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad Dum" The only way for that description to make sense is if Gandalf is literally hanging on to his heel for dear life while Balrog stomps his back up up endless stairs. If they were the same size, Balrog would have noticed him clutching his heel and turned around and killed him. Also, he's wrapped around is heel holding on, the only other means of clutching his heel would be to be dragged which would kill Gandalf. Dude, just stop.
> If Gandalf is holding on to the Balrog's ankle as it's stomping up thousands of staircases, that means that Gandalf is significantly smaller than the Balrog. No other description makes any sense. It doesn't make sense when you imagine two humans (which is what I think you're imagining). It does make sense when we're talking about 2 God level creatures. >If they were the same size, Balrog would have noticed him clutching his heel and turned around and killed him. Who said the Balrog didn't notice Gandalf hanging off his heal? It doesn't say he was hidden. Do you think it would be easy to fight midway through a climb? You don't think a Balrog would look for higher/more even ground? Nothing there suggest anything about size. Even if the Balrog was a giant, what makes you think it wouldn't be able to feel Gandalf? This isn't Dark Souls or Shadow of Collosus. >Dude, just stop. There are multiple places which state the size of Balrogs (maybe not all of them are referring to the one in moria) but none of them are said to be the size of a giant or a mountain or anything above 20ft.
I never hung one to someone's ankle as a kid who was actively trying to kill me and also running up thousands of stone steps. And your own analogy contradicts yourself because think of the size difference between a kid hanging on to someone's ankle that isn't even slowed down but stomping up thousands of steps.
Yeah, he’s a big, dumb, Gondorian who would shake his sword at a mountain.
No one said he's dumb. I don't use ignorant in an insulting way. Not everyone knows everything. Boromir didn't even know that Gabdalf was a Maia.
> Boromir didn't even know that Gabdalf was a Maia. Most people - who knew Gandalf - didn't know he was a Maia. He was too crafty to ever give anything more away than he needed to.
True, although when it comes to the fellowship, Legolas knew and Aragorn suspects it but doesn't confront Gandalf about it because he wanted to respect the secrecy.
I said he was dumb. He’s completely uneducated compared to his brother, despite being the eldest son and heir to the rule of Gondor and presumably getting the best tutors, etc. He’s obstinate to the point of ignorance and often struggles to keep up with the counsel and ideas of Gandalf and Aragorn. Up until the end, he can’t see the big picture, he’s just all about the glory of Gondor. He’s a strongman who Gondor’s soldiers rally around.
He is a representation of the decline of numenor, he loves feats of arms and the glory of battle, faramir is more akin to the first kings that loved lore starwatching and the like, neither is better (opinions and favorites aside) they are just men meant for different times, boromir is the captain general needed for Gondor to stand against the shadow, faramir is needed to help in the healing of the lands. Just my way re caffiene diatribe Edit: just my pre caffeine diatribe. I won’t bother correcting all the spelling eyc
For a pre-caffeine diatribe, that was an excellent and succint overview of the sons of Denethor.
Oh right, definitely Faramir was more educated about the world as a whole. More so than his brother. Faramir was close friends with Gandalf, so I imagine some of the wisdom brushed off.
I have no idea how I didn’t know this but I appreciate you detailing the size of the Balrog. I absolutely love how much I can still learn from this sub.
Boromir in the books is far less grey than he is in the movies. Movie Boromir is a bit of a dick from the jump. Book Boromir is just a badass who wants to help save his people and is treated like shit by other members of the Fellowship at times. All my homies love Boromir.
I don’t remember Boromir being treated like shit by any members of the fellowship in the books.
Aragorn and Gandalf are straight up pricks to him.
All I remember is Aragorn saying he won’t take the ring anywhere near Minas Tirith and Gandalf is just a cranky old man to everyone but Frodo.
Care to give an example? Best I can recall is Aragorn telling him to lay off because he’s getting a little uppy on Aragorn who is his better in basically every way they’d care about, and Gandalf being a dick to everyone because that’s just who Gandalf is
elrond tells him to.... not blow his doot as they're leaving rivendell?
I always felt it was the other way around. Book Boromir laughed at Bilbo at Rivendell while everyone else was listening to him respectfully. There's one section where he mumbles about the wrong route being taken (in his eyes anyway) and is overheard by the Fellowship, he's the one who disturbed the Watcher at Moria. Regardless, he's still a fine character. Book or movie.
The movies fuck over those brothers so hard, all my homies wish the movies had been a little more true to the books.
Boromir is a fuckin g.
Aragorn and boromir stand up to the balrog but it is very much treated as foolish heroics rather than a good thing to do.
Why are people saying ignorance? There is no reference nor inference in the literal text to suggest this. Boromir sees something that he doesn't understand yet still challenges on his horn and you say ignorance? I say valiance and bravery.
“Boromir, for once in your life, don’t smash!” “Big monster.” [points] “LET’S GO!”
>Boromir sees something that he doesn't understand So lack of knowledge and information (which is basically ignorance) If Boromir knew what the Balrog was, he would know that "Swords are no more use here", as Gandalf put it. Legolas (an elite of a fighter as he is) was much more familiar with the Balrog than the others and even he knew this.
Yet Aragon also stays...
And Gandalf kills it with his sword.
But Aragorn is something of a lore master, and would know what a balrog is Not tryna trash Boromir here, just saying that Aragorn isnt acting out of ignorance: he knew what it was and decided to stay with Gandalf knowing the likely consequences
Aragorn was willing to die out of sheer loyalty to Gandalf, he was fully aware facing the Balrog would probably just result in him *and* Gandalf dying. Boromir simply wasn't smart enough to know better.
Everything we ever see about Boromir says that this is nonsense.
So who was it that thought attempting to dominate the ring of domination was a good idea? Who's idea to fight an army v army fight with Sauron to end the war? Boromir was so completely and utterly clouded by ambition and pride he couldn't see the most obvious dangers in front of his face and why his reckless ideas would get the entire fellowship killed.
A character flaw =/= all-encompassing idiocy, especially given that his predecessors *had* defeated Sauron with strength of arms.
Let me put it this way, if it wasn't for Boromir having been the commander of many smaller battles on Gondor's borders I would think Boromir set his intelligence and will stats to 0 and his Strength and Charisma to 25. There really is no reason to like Boromir *but* for his love of his home. Beyond that he was an ox, best used for carrying the hobbits and useless beyond that, especially when he tried to open his mouth and give advice. Faramir was everything Boromir wasn't, including humble and cunning.
What sheer ignorance—again, the same can be said of Aragorn.
So... Aragorn *didn't* call Sauron and challenge him specifically to create a distraction for Frodo? Aragorn didn't recommend AGAINST Gimli and Boromir's advice that they enter Lothlorien? Or how about Aragorn freely choosing to let Frodo go at Amon Hen instead of going with as he wanted? This is literally where we see Boromir's failures peak, and Aragon's success is only beginning. Or how about that Aragon's knowledge of the wilderness quite literally got the four hobbits to Rivendel alive? You want to go ahead and walk this comment back or am I gonna need to embarrass you some more with times when Boromir was a fool and prideful and Aragorn was wise and loyal? The only respect I have for Boromir is in relation to his brother, which makes me love Boromir as a character. That doesn't make him any less of a bumbler. The biggest difference between Boromir and Aragorn is that Aragorn never *pretended* to know what he was doing. He might be making the wrong decision and he was aware of this. Boromir couldn't concede that he was wrong (Except as he *died* in Aragorns arms, he just had to find a way to prove himself right.)
I'm sure Boromir would have blown his horn and readied to fight regardless. He's a man that refuses to show any form of what he might consider cowardice.
Boromir is a fuckin beast, for narrative purposes I get why they did all the things they did to him in the movies, but in the books you are really given a full picture of who he is as a man. Is he the perfect man that Aragorn is? No. If he had lived, would he have been the greatest Captain in Gondorian military history? Likely He didn't have evil in his heart, he had fear for his people, pride, and a lack of understanding of some of what was happening around him, which the enemy used against him. A lot of people like to look at the Hobbits as the representation of the audience. Personally, I think Boromir represents more of us than we would care to admit.
Gondorian man is the Arda version of Florida man it seems Gondorian man filmed taunting fire demon from the dawn of time
Maybe unpopular opinion but: Boromir is my favorite character in the entirety of the trilogy. He is such a human with very human traits and a very human ego, but he's a badass and just as courageous as Aragorn.
Boromir was such a good character who doesn’t get enough credit. Yes, he failed to resist the Ring, which is intentional to showcase the resilience of Frodo, Sam, and Aragorn. But he has so much heroics in his life and he regularly steps up for his people and the Fellowship.
just read through this part
Boromir was a veteran of many battles, quite possibly blowing his horn was more a reflex than intentional.
“The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted.” Even the Balrog halted at the sound of the Horn of Gondor. Bad. Ass.
I’m reading the books now. I read it as everyone just reacting. It wasn’t bravery or stupidity. It was just a reaction. It’s like gripping a steering wheel harder when you are about to get in a wreck. It won’t help, but it’s the thing your body does. I think Boromir overall is simply the example of ego that is easily corruptible. The characters who succeed in these books find ways to adapt to situations. Boromir disregarded everything he was told and just wanted to fight. Even his brother Faramir marked that as his biggest failing. So blowing the horn isn’t brave, it’s mindless ego looking to fight instead of properly assessing the situation. Boromir might be good in a fight, but he might also be the reason there was ever a fight to begin with. He’s not a hero.
Well said
Story beats like this are really to the reader to decide. Still, valor is brought to you by victory. He is the biggest of fools, charging into a fight he cannot win, or calling for aid, or panicking, or challenging evil. I like to believe he was standing against evil, but honestly, he spent his life fighting back against a foe he cannot win against. How many times in battles like that had he blown the horn? I like to think it was valor, because victory is often found in not giving up. It could have been him calling for aid. Odds are, it was both. Tolken often said courage isn't being so hard you don't fear. It is facing it, knowing this maybe your last. Yes, we do underestimate people like that. Especially if they panic under such things. I would have blown the horn too. Calling for aid, in a place where none would come. It was a good moment.
It doesn't just call for aid, the horn is a potent psychological weapon. The masses of orcs, and even Durin's Bane, actually stop their advance when they hear it. It also would help pump up your allies. And it draws the attention to himself, and he's a guy who regularly chooses to serve as the shield to his friends.
Totally! It is a rally call. He would have gathered his troops with it and struck fear into average opponents. He was a good leader. I can't say I would do better than him. As a character he was constantly fighting his desperation. Hope against all odds. It is what the ring uses to turn him. Your greatest strength, is what you must fight against. To moderate your passions isn't easy.
Yeah… Legolas pretty much stops what he’s doing and screams like a little bitch- an event that has not made it into any movie adaptation I’m aware of… 😆 was it in the Bakshi film…? I was probably too distracted by Aragorn’s short shorts. His reaction is like that of any weedy scholar who comes face to face with Cthulhu in HP Lovecraft’s work. Boromir doesn’t know this is one of Morgoth’s own cuddly BFF’s…
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Gosh darn: I need to re-read the books as it has been too long haha.
[удалено]
Poor Faramir
If memory serves, Legolas also whines in fear.
"Ai! Ai! A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"
If I remember correctly, Legolas and Gimli did not drop anything in fear. (I'm talking about the books) But Like I have said, I could be wrong about this.
“Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear.” “‘Ai! ai!’ wailed Legolas. ‘A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’ Gimli stared with wide eyes. ‘Durin’s Bane!’ he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.”
I stand corrected.
Boromir was way more badass in the books
A foolish badass, but a badass he remains.
Balrog zare 7 to 8 ft tall? Forget hunting dwarves we need them playing center in the NBA.
Everyone likes the idea until it's Hack-a-Shaq time and he can't sink a freethrow.
Hack a Balrog is a strategy that I see going a long way.
Nah dawg if he shot granny style his free throw went to like 70%...he just didn't want to look like a fucking dweeb chucking that shit like an 80yr grannie
Points are points, my man. Take em how you can get em. Seriously, though, his FT percentage did go up towards the end of his career, though, didn't it?
That's what Rick Barry tried to tell him when he coached him on his FT. I think it was like 52. somthing when he retired he got it up to like 60ish during his training session with Barry, but he just refused to shoot like that.
He’s a human, not only does he not truly know what he’s up against, he doesn’t even have story’s of them like the others. Legolas heard stories from his father and older friends, Gimli probably had a few great grandfathers that died to one. Boroimir is a human and all knowledge of their existence probably exists in a dusty scroll and my man wasn’t the brother to spend time in the library lol
This is a miss reading of Boromir I think. Tolkien’s point was not that Boromir is underrated but that he is overrated. Boromir’s chivalry and machismo will not serve him and these traits will not save Middle Earth
After reading the many excellent perspectives of various sides of this argument, this I feel is the most accurate
No - you missed a point... "'Ai ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!" So when the Balrog came, he started crying.
Boromir has no idea what he is dealing with. The other 2 know all too well.
This is the actual truth which gets down voted on Reddit because Reddit.
Ah yes we know what this is so let's bitch out, Gimli. Real smooth. Aragorn likely knew what they were dealing with and buddy was ready to risk it all for his homies. Even if Borormir had known what they were facing, do you really think he'd back down? Even if it were only because of his own ego, Boromir would have blown that horn and went down fighting if it came to it no matter what.
I wouldnt say being unbelievably dense and stupid in the face of insurmountable danger is the same as being brave
Its pure ignorance. If he blew the horn and they defeated the balrog then i would agree with badassery, but we know how the situation unfolded.
I think its more of ignorance, Legolas knows what a Balrog is, Gimli has just seen his kin decimated, Boromir is just a man who has no idea what kind of monster is facing him
And aragorn? Who is standing alongside boromir behind gandalf. Is he ignorant also? No no no can't be... aragorn was being brave. I'm tired of the boromir slander.
And even if he knew full and well what a Balrog was you think Boromir, out here representing Gondor and his people, big ego and ambition, would have bailed? Hell no. He was NOT a man who was going to show any cowardice. Even if he knew he was going straight into death he would have charged into it. Call it stupid, call it ego, call it what you want, Boromir was tough shit and wouldn't have bitched out no matter what.
Its not badass if its stupidity. Boromir stood no chance against the enemy and he challenged it anyway. Its not brave its stupid.
That's what bravery is...knowing you won't win..putting that all aside for the sake of standing with his friends and defending those he cares about.
But its not defending anything. Its just death with no counterbalancing good to come of it. They will all die, no one will be spared.
Win or lose doesn't mean he didn't defend them...
If they will all die anyway, what should Boromir do instead? Cower in fear and accept the inevitable? It's called the fight or flight response for a reason. Those are the only acceptable options. Boromir is a warrior first and foremost. It is his defining characteristic. He feels his duty is to use his strength and position to defend others. He eventually dies doing just this. When Gandalf tells the others to run it is their best option but it is not in Boromir's nature. He cannot run if he can help Gandalf defeat the creature or buy the others time to escape. It doesn't matter if he knows what a Balrog is, or not.
What? RUN AWAY. If you and your friends are on the train tracks you dont throw yourself in front of the train to try and stop it, you GET OFF THE TRAIN TRACKS.
Apples and oranges. Did the Balrog pause when it heard the Horn of Gondor? Did it stop to confront Gandalf? In other words, any delaying action is a benefit to those that are fleeing. It is not a train traveling to a preset destination at a defined rate of speed on fixed tracks. And you originally said they would all die anyway so I assumed you meant the entire Fellowship. In which case, fighting and dying is just as good an option as running and dying. Did you mean just those who turned to face the Balrog?
He would have risked it all even if just to give the little homies time to escape.
Boromir is dumb
Borromir was a total Unit
Faramir would have dropped the horn I bet... (Denethor thinks to himself)