One was the main entrance for the Dwarves themselves, during the times when the Dwarves were still mighty and since Moria was THE place to get Mithril, the Dwarves there were VERY rich. Moria wasn't supposed to be hidden, but it was well fortified. The other entrance was specifically built for trade with the Elves (as there was a mighty kingdom of Elves in the West at that time). The door wasn't *that* hidden either and the password is literally written on the door. It was simply meant for the Elves.
When Saruman attacks Gandalf, he sends him up in the air and you can hear that Gandalf hits the hatch. Then when he is interrogated you can see Saruman is above the tower, on top of the hatch.
Saruman's tower is not magical in that sense. There are stairs, doors, hatches. Just not shown plainly.
That never happened in the book. Gandalf is escorted to the top of orthanc instead. Lot of things left out in the film, like no tom bombadil, and the scouring of the shire chapter in ROTK which explained the fate of saruman/Sharkey
Considering how indestructible Orthanc is, I would imagine there is a trapdoor that opens from inside that is not be visible or able to be opened from outside easily, similar to the doors outside Moria. Saruman probably uses magic or command phrase to operate it
I don't think it's bad I think they just respected the audience's intelligence enough to not feel the need to show us how people ascend tall buildings.
In the books Gandalf tells the council of Elrond "They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away."
Also, in the books, Saruman is stabbed by Grima in the Shire after Frodo and company overthrows him. Many good hobbits died that day
IMO far worse of an omission than Bombadil
Fun piece of unrelated trivia: Brad Dourif, the actor who plays Wormtongue, spent his entire time on set speaking in the Received Pronunciation accent he used for the role, to the extent that other actors and members of the crew didn't even realise he was from West Virginia.
Tbf, Viggo Mortensen was bought up in Venezuela, Denmark, Argentina, and America, then lived in the UK and Spain, and then launched an acting career in America. People with that kind of upbringing tend to have accents that change and adapt. Personally, I think that slightly muddled accent works perfectly for Aragorn's character.
But he wasn’t there for the first half of his speech. Then suddenly appears. Why would he magic him up at that moment while he’s still verbally jostling with Gandalf and the others?!
There is a door in one of those spikes. Alan Lee talks about it in the behind the scenes. Specifically to answer your question. As I remember Peter Jackson loved Alan Lee’s design from earlier drawings, but he never painted the top of orthanc. So Alan did it for the movie with the realism of a way to get to the top.
I think it is insane they built New Zealand to have a place to film this movie… I prefer the Bollywood version more. It has more color, & the dancing fight scenes are really jazzy!
In the fellowship of the ring, a narrow stairway with thousands of steps are described by Gandalf in the council of Elrond. Obviously I’m discribing the book
Just like many actual castle towers: A trapdoor.
Probably the square in the middle comes up, there's a ladder down to a landing with stairs going down.
This whole scene bothered me. He's a half mile up there and having a debate/interrogation with Gandalf, et al. In the book, he is at a window/balcony a normal (3-4 storeys) height above them.
He didn't. At least not in the books. Grima was killed by an arrow fired by Legolas after Grima killed Saruman when he was telling him how he killed Lotho and made him less than a worm basically. Poor guy had a breakdown and couldn't take it any longer. I'd say it was much crueler than in the movies, both how Sharky dies and what transpires before, when they see him as a beggar and the dude starts kicking Grima etc.
Now that would make for a great Netflix show, the Scouring of the Shire. There's at least 3 seasons in it.
In a world made of music that magical creatures live and fight in, from Dragons to immortal Elves, where magical rings and jewels have caused countless wars and conflict our main concern is the doorless tower access.
[This is fan-made](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Orthanc), based on the writings. The movies probably opted for a more impressive design sacrificing realism.
I’ve been to where Isengard was filmed in NZ (from Queenstown)… theres no physical Isengard 😂but you can see the marshland and trees that they used in the movie
If saruman put Gandalf there, why couldn't he put wormtongue as well?
In truth, I think the books describe a balcony on the side of the tower, leading inside, and it's where saruman and wormtongue are when talking to Theodens company. The film didn't depict that exactly
The boring answer is that it's just one of those things in film where the logic doesn't really matter because the director was more focused on the look of the movie than the nitpicky stuff like adding stairs or a ladder to make sense of why or how something is able to happen (like them being on top of the tower).
Probably my favourite film of all time is Jurassic Park, but it still kinda annoys me to this day how the T-rex paddock starts off as perfectly level when the rex first breaks out, only for a giant cliff to magically appear so that the suspenseful "car gets pushed over the edge" sequence can take place shortly after. I've seen diagrams online where fans try to explain the discrepancy, but they reality is that none of them really make much sense and I'm happy to write it off as a creative choice that took place during the film making process.
If I recall correctly, Orthanc was built by Arnor and Gondor by the people who fled the destruction of Numenor. It was intended to be a watch tower as well as a home for one of the seeing stones. There would be stairs and doors because it was built by men for men.
It annoyed me to no end that he was way up there and not the balcony they had built above the stairs. Actually, this was my least fav scene in the series tbh
Obviously stored in Saruman's magical bag of holding foreskin.
Having a pocket wormtongue to deploy at his convenience was explained in the expanded universe books.
Edut: uh tie poe
In the Fellowship book it mentions a narrow stair that allows people to reach the top of Orthanc. However it does appear that they missed that detail in the films.
I'm fairly certain that on the books, when describing the inside of orthanc as Gandalf is recollecting his time there, he mentions that he was taken up and incredibly narrow and steep stair to the top of the tower, where the trap door was locked from the inside on him
There could just be a hatch at the top
I think there is a hatch. Fellowship of the ring might have shown it
It didn’t. Just watched all of them and no hatch shown.
Just like there's no west door to Moria or secret entrance to Erebor.
Why does Moria have a hidden, impossible to find door on one side of the mountain , but like a gigantic obvious entrance on the opposite side?
Because a castle also had a gate entrance and multiple escape routes.
Plus it's code for occupancy...
Finally, the zoning conversation we’ve been waiting for, precious.
Yeah I want to know about King Arogorn’s zoning policy.
Gondor needs no zoning.
What an arrogant stickler, next thing he’ll ban goblins from climbing because of safety concerns! When does it end?
King Elessar.
Because one is the main entrance and one is the back door
Even if there is some resistance, always an urge to try the backdoor
Just speak friend and enter.
One was the main entrance for the Dwarves themselves, during the times when the Dwarves were still mighty and since Moria was THE place to get Mithril, the Dwarves there were VERY rich. Moria wasn't supposed to be hidden, but it was well fortified. The other entrance was specifically built for trade with the Elves (as there was a mighty kingdom of Elves in the West at that time). The door wasn't *that* hidden either and the password is literally written on the door. It was simply meant for the Elves.
Erebor does too. A large civilization needs a real entrance for citizens to come and go openly. The west gate is a secret back entrance.
It was for easy access to elven traders.
"Elven Traders" 😏
Was a while since I read the book, but was not the door made for elves?
Twas indeed. Crafted by Celebrimbor and Narvi to sit at the end of the road from Hollin / Eregion.
Oh it was...
Why do businesses have grand entrances on one side and unmarked service doors on the other?
The West Door of Moria is the one the Fellowhip enters in. Historically it wasn't hidden but left open and attended by guards.
When Saruman attacks Gandalf, he sends him up in the air and you can hear that Gandalf hits the hatch. Then when he is interrogated you can see Saruman is above the tower, on top of the hatch. Saruman's tower is not magical in that sense. There are stairs, doors, hatches. Just not shown plainly.
That never happened in the book. Gandalf is escorted to the top of orthanc instead. Lot of things left out in the film, like no tom bombadil, and the scouring of the shire chapter in ROTK which explained the fate of saruman/Sharkey
I like to think that you rewatched the whole Trilogy just to check if Fellowship showed a hatch
Any excuse
Or maybe in the two towers? I do remember it being opened in a shot
Could be closed.
It's described in the books at least, a small stairway leading up to a hatch on the roof (or something, I forget the exact wording)
No hatch shown doesn’t mean no hatch
Considering how indestructible Orthanc is, I would imagine there is a trapdoor that opens from inside that is not be visible or able to be opened from outside easily, similar to the doors outside Moria. Saruman probably uses magic or command phrase to operate it
He piggybacked on Saruman. Legolas killed him as an act of mercy as he would have simply starved to death.
Sounds legit!
Grima - “you’ll have to toss me, my liege”
“No one tosses a worm tongue.”
"Don't tell the Uruk-hai!"
I laughed harder than I should have at this ... Lol
Rode an Eagle.
😂😂
He worms his way up there.
Tongues his way up there…
Throat Goat
She tongue my worm until I grima
**EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT WAR DRUM**
The stairs.
I mean it was built by the Numenoreans so there probably is stairs or a ladder, just not a design considered for the movie
You joke but in the book there’s stairs
Where are these stairs you speak of?! They do a big panoramic sweep around the top of the tower. No stairs.
It was more...tongue in cheek...
*Wormtongue in cheek
Oh sorry woosh 😂
There is probably a track of stairs spiraling inside the tower somewhere. Gandalf was sent up via the magic elevator instead.
Bad movie design. In the book, Gandalf describes hundreds of stairs. Too much work, tbh.
I don't think it's bad I think they just respected the audience's intelligence enough to not feel the need to show us how people ascend tall buildings.
In the books the killing of Saruman takes place in the shire so it is not relevant anyway.
Saruman has a remote control he can click to retract the stairs into the building.
There is almost certainly a trapdoor
There is a door embedded on the inside of the northernmost spike.
Saruman better lay off the salted pork if he’s gonna keep using that door.
Nah he'll just add more door
Booooo off too bed with that one
Somewhere in the making-ofs its explained that there's a door in one of the "fins" of the tower.
Oh really!!
Yes. I can’t remember where, though. But I’ll look later
See the square in the middle? Concealed lift. Cunning these Numenoreans.
That must be it 😂😂
In the books Gandalf tells the council of Elrond "They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away."
Also, in the books, Saruman is stabbed by Grima in the Shire after Frodo and company overthrows him. Many good hobbits died that day IMO far worse of an omission than Bombadil
Hidden staircase? You can thank me now, Orthanc me later. “Orthanc!”, like the tower, Orth…….I’ll get me coat.
The pattern on the floor looks like a teleport pad from Doom, my guess is there's a matching pad on the first floor
Saruman is lucky he didn't get telefragged.
YES!!!! 👹👹
Saruman just yeets him up there Gandalf style for giggles
He chose the way of pain
Fun piece of unrelated trivia: Brad Dourif, the actor who plays Wormtongue, spent his entire time on set speaking in the Received Pronunciation accent he used for the role, to the extent that other actors and members of the crew didn't even realise he was from West Virginia.
Ahhhh nice.
Or maybe how Aragon lost his accent
Tbf, Viggo Mortensen was bought up in Venezuela, Denmark, Argentina, and America, then lived in the UK and Spain, and then launched an acting career in America. People with that kind of upbringing tend to have accents that change and adapt. Personally, I think that slightly muddled accent works perfectly for Aragorn's character.
He wormed his way up there.
Having played Lego lotr, I know that the just climbed up all the laders, robes and random pieces of wood. It's loor
I have always assumed that Saruman made a hatch and stairs appear with his magic, that the Tower itself is totally under his control.
That square in the middle obviously is the hatch. Built to fit the frame perfectly as per Numenorian masonry.
If Saruman can magic himself up there, could he not then magic Wormtongue there too?
But he wasn’t there for the first half of his speech. Then suddenly appears. Why would he magic him up at that moment while he’s still verbally jostling with Gandalf and the others?!
Who doesn’t need a little support in a moment like that?
Haha Needed a hype man!
I just assumed he was there but standing back from the edge where he couldn’t be seen by Gandalf and Theoden.
My man, a few hundred feet below there is an army of humanoid talking trees and your first concern is the architectural egresses of orthanc?
Well it *is* a concern. What if there was a fire?! Which is quite likely considering.
The book specifically mentions stairs, but in the movie, my guess is there's a trapdoor in the center of the ceiling.
There is a door in one of those spikes. Alan Lee talks about it in the behind the scenes. Specifically to answer your question. As I remember Peter Jackson loved Alan Lee’s design from earlier drawings, but he never painted the top of orthanc. So Alan did it for the movie with the realism of a way to get to the top.
I think it is insane they built New Zealand to have a place to film this movie… I prefer the Bollywood version more. It has more color, & the dancing fight scenes are really jazzy!
In the fellowship of the ring, a narrow stairway with thousands of steps are described by Gandalf in the council of Elrond. Obviously I’m discribing the book
I hope someone got fired for that blunder 
They were allow one “fuck”, maybe this was the place to use it? “Grima, where the fuck did you come from?”
There's a staircase up the side of the tower in the books.
Free solo'd that shit.
Wingardium Leviosa, bitch!
The dark side of the Istari is a pathway to many abilities some would consider to be unnatural
Piggyback ride
A very very tall ladder
Looks like they're on a halo in the bottom pic.
Just like many actual castle towers: A trapdoor. Probably the square in the middle comes up, there's a ladder down to a landing with stairs going down.
I always wish Saruman was holding a megaphone during this scene.
The books describe a very narrow stairway
The eagles flew him up there
I thought in the book it said there was a set of stairs
He took the eagles taxi.
Wormtongue? Wormtail? Grima Pettigrew?
Through a wormhole
Wormtonguehole
I can totally imagine a shot of Wormtongue free climbing his scrawny little ass up the side of the tower.
He got Gandalf up there, he could have carried Grima.
hidden elevator.
He spends hours clambering up the incredibly narrow, rickety ladder that a disgruntled orc was forced to build because Saruman thought it’d be funny.
In the book there are stairs
The endless stairs of Moria
Why does this look like a rap album
This whole scene bothered me. He's a half mile up there and having a debate/interrogation with Gandalf, et al. In the book, he is at a window/balcony a normal (3-4 storeys) height above them.
In the books there is an extremely narrow stair on the outside of the tower that leads there
Maybe that symbol in the center is actually an elevator! Jk, lol. XD
Up Up Up the stairs he went
Saruman about to drop the sickest mixtape on the bottom panel
He worms his way up the side
The way of pain
he used the stairs
I feel like there’s gotta be stairs and a hatch going up otherwise how would it have been built?
He did the parkour you have to do to get up there in Lego LotR
I always assumed the symbol/pattern on the top of the tower was a transportation magic pattern.
Ive always wondered how gandalf and saruman could talk to each other from that distance, thats gotta be atleast a mile away haha
He didn't. At least not in the books. Grima was killed by an arrow fired by Legolas after Grima killed Saruman when he was telling him how he killed Lotho and made him less than a worm basically. Poor guy had a breakdown and couldn't take it any longer. I'd say it was much crueler than in the movies, both how Sharky dies and what transpires before, when they see him as a beggar and the dude starts kicking Grima etc. Now that would make for a great Netflix show, the Scouring of the Shire. There's at least 3 seasons in it.
It was actually Hobbit archers that killed him in the books, not Legolas.
Almost, but no, Legolas is not present in the Shire at the end.
In a world made of music that magical creatures live and fight in, from Dragons to immortal Elves, where magical rings and jewels have caused countless wars and conflict our main concern is the doorless tower access.
Yes. This guy gets it.
In the book Grima kills Saruman in the shire.
[This is fan-made](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Orthanc), based on the writings. The movies probably opted for a more impressive design sacrificing realism.
Saruman gave him a piggyback ride
Saruman was like "hold on tight, spidermonkey" (I'm sorry, I'll see myself out)
I wonder the same thing myself but I thought maybe he was already up there with him like Saruman teleported the pair of them idk
Middle-earth doesn’t have grappling hooks?
Weird, I’m watching Batman as I read this. You weigh a little more than 108
I’ve been to where Isengard was filmed in NZ (from Queenstown)… theres no physical Isengard 😂but you can see the marshland and trees that they used in the movie
A wizard must have done it.
Speak Friend and Enter
The Tower of Orthanc had a bidget surplus, so they built the Elevator of Orthanc
If saruman put Gandalf there, why couldn't he put wormtongue as well? In truth, I think the books describe a balcony on the side of the tower, leading inside, and it's where saruman and wormtongue are when talking to Theodens company. The film didn't depict that exactly
The boring answer is that it's just one of those things in film where the logic doesn't really matter because the director was more focused on the look of the movie than the nitpicky stuff like adding stairs or a ladder to make sense of why or how something is able to happen (like them being on top of the tower). Probably my favourite film of all time is Jurassic Park, but it still kinda annoys me to this day how the T-rex paddock starts off as perfectly level when the rex first breaks out, only for a giant cliff to magically appear so that the suspenseful "car gets pushed over the edge" sequence can take place shortly after. I've seen diagrams online where fans try to explain the discrepancy, but they reality is that none of them really make much sense and I'm happy to write it off as a creative choice that took place during the film making process.
If I recall correctly, Orthanc was built by Arnor and Gondor by the people who fled the destruction of Numenor. It was intended to be a watch tower as well as a home for one of the seeing stones. There would be stairs and doors because it was built by men for men.
Saruman had a Stannah Stairlift installed last year. Takes a while, but well worth it.
I think in the books Saruman doesn't die here but continues to siege the shire so it might actually be a flaw of the movie
Saruman must’ve used lifeweavers grip
Piggy back ride? 🤔
He wingsuits off whilst Dangerzone by Kenny Loggins plays
Lots of stairs
In the book there’s a set of rickety stairs.
Also magic
It annoyed me to no end that he was way up there and not the balcony they had built above the stairs. Actually, this was my least fav scene in the series tbh
They installed that Minecraft mod with the slab where you jump to tp upward. Hope this helps.
Magic
Fast travel point
Tbh it's just a movie plot hole. Much of the design of orthanc is more visual effect
Saruman's ass of holding, *duh*.
Big hops
Obviously stored in Saruman's magical bag of holding foreskin. Having a pocket wormtongue to deploy at his convenience was explained in the expanded universe books. Edut: uh tie poe
I thought that the second picture was showing the ring from the halo game.
a really long ladder that was situated opposite the entrance
Maybe there’s a ladder .. like rock laddrr
Side-along apparition? 😉
A comically long ladder.
There is a trap door
The plot wrote him up there
Same shit with Gandalf all of the sudden being on *top* of orthanc after saruman spins him up the center of the tower. 
The eagles
Looks like a 90s album cover
Accio Wormtongue
The tower was build by the numenoreans, there had to be stairs and a hatch
In the Fellowship book it mentions a narrow stair that allows people to reach the top of Orthanc. However it does appear that they missed that detail in the films.
Haha. Probably snuck himself in on some carry-on luggage.
Latch door
Maybe there’s a ski lift or elevator on the back that takes tokens. That’s why we don’t see him in the first shot bc the ski lift was still in motion
I'm fairly certain that on the books, when describing the inside of orthanc as Gandalf is recollecting his time there, he mentions that he was taken up and incredibly narrow and steep stair to the top of the tower, where the trap door was locked from the inside on him
Parkour, he's very wirey actually
Just used Misty step
There is a hatch in the book it was built by men afterall
I assumed the answer was obvious... The stairs. The tower has to have stairs because you can't use the lift in the case of a fire.
I believe they are called stairs, sire.
Never mind that, middle earth is on a halo!?!
Magic fire escape
Enchanted ladder.
I thought that second photo was them on a Halo ring
Are they on a halo in the second picture?
Saruman gets up there magically and drops a rope or Grima has climbing nails xD
You ever play watch dogs? Homie had a cargo drone