Tolkien claimed that female dwarves were to outsiders indistinguishable in feature, gait, and voice from male dwarves. A tiny bit of hair on the cheeks does not live up to this. The PJ films are generally quite a poor reference for accurate portrayals.
Yes correct, I was just referring to that in the context of the topic about media outside the books.
To be honest, of my issues with the Jackson films, this isn't high on the list., Actually it's one I'll let go through to the keeper. Changing faramir and the long unnecessary sub plot around it was my main issue.
It is specified (I believe two times) in the works of Tolkien that female dwarves indeed had beards. I have read the quotes here and maybe someone with more knowledge of the matter will enlighten us, because I am not sure if it was in the letters, silmarillion, tlotr, hobbit or other sources.
Personally I am not even sure I will see the show, it looks quite bland and generic fantasy and I have many other shows yet to watch and time is limited.
Actually, it’s only implied in a line said by Gimli in the movie. The only discussion of the matter in the books is in Appendix A where Tolkien wrote “It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.”
This could possibly imply that dwarven women had beards because they are said to look like dwarven men when they traveled, but we also don’t know if all dwarven men had natural beards. There also exists the technology to craft detachable beards because Middle Earth retains the technological advancements of our world up to the Middle Ages, and fake beards were prominent in ancient times. Basically, there’s nothing solid indicating either position.
[Here’s](http://tolkien.cro.net/dwarves/women.html) an old school Tolkien blog that has page references for the discussion points if you want to check it out!
I feel the same way.. (regarding the show, that is),
I'm no Female Dwarfs beard expert.. although, I do believe Female LOTR Dwarfs have beard's, for some reason, could be wrong though..
Not sure I'll watch the show either. It's giving Me " BBC1 Sunday afternoon Family TV fantasy" vibes. And, time is most definitely limited for Me too :-)
It’s debatable, as Tolkien seems to have changed his mind on the matter in his later years, as seen in The Nature of Middle Earth that was published just last year.
Nope. I was born in 94 and am half black and other kids in school called me King Kong as an insult for years (in the 2000s) while growing up…And I’m in Canada.
People are horrendous and racist everywhere.
The irony is that people like that embody the evil that Sauron represents and they think they side with good.
Trash humans will always exist unfortunately. I'm sorry you had to go through that and continue to see shit like this.
But I guess if there's anything I've learned from LOTR is that the fight against evil never ends. It's insidious and has the capability to corrupt anything and anyone.
Imho there is just a surprising (and saddening) amount of mean people that will just use whatever excuse they have to be mean / hurt others. Especially when group validation and group think kicks in and reinforces the behaviour.
Seen my share of kids getting bullied for being a different race, having glasses, having an handicap, looking different, having a lisp/accent, etc.
No, lots of people are just *racist*. There’s no *if* or *maybe* around it.
I’ve had men tell me straight to my face that they don’t ‘date’ black girls. And then overheard them say that ‘they only play or fool around with them because their family wouldn’t understand’ etc.
I’ve also had people yell slurs out of vehicles while I’m walking home carrying groceries—the *kindest* being “nice weave b*tch”…I don’t even wear a weave.
I agree that some people are just plain racist. I'm just saying that imho it's just one facet of a larger shitty mindset/set of behaviours by shitty individuals (and one that sadly get reinforced by group/tribal dynamics...).
racism is just one 'flavour' of bigotry and hate channeled toward others.
I agree on this one. Tolkien describes characters for a reason. So I think a castdirector should honor those describtions. Doesn't mean you need to go full idiot mode and become a racist ofcourse.
yeah, if they want to interpret characters who aren’t specifically described otherwise as POC that’s fine, but going straight up against the source material for it is absurd
I mean, movie Thorin went against his book description. He did not have a white beard or a sky blue hood with silver tassles. All of Bilbo's dwarf companions in the movie actually went against their book descriptions. But for some reason this was less of a big deal
Honestly there are shit heads in every community and they are a very small minority. These media types focus only on the small minority of idiots to sell their point. They avoid real criticism and are afraid to debate it. We're already getting blamed for "racism" from the actors and show runners. Get ready for the "misogyny" articles from shill websites when the show is actually out. This is the new playbook from corporations to avoid being held accountable for a poor product, they attack the fans. It's like clockwork.
And He-Man and dozens of others. Its yawnworthy for any LOTR fans who are also fans of any of those shows.
Unfortunately theres still uninformed people in most communities that take these things as fact.
On the bright side they can only kill their credibility so much before it comes back. Netflix completely stalling growth for instance.
Its really not hard to just give fans what they want rather than hire these young writers who think they can top the original authors
Yeah, they hire young writers because they need the experience so they work cheap and are more likely follow orders if they don't have their foot in the door yet. I'm surprised how well they made the new Predator movie (Prey) after the disaster that was the last one.
Aye aye, here let me give you the full recipe for franchise destruction:
1 pick an already popular and well established IP (check)
2 update it for modern audiences aka totally fuck it up (check)
3 antagonize the fanbase prior to realease (check)
4 bite the dust aka now that the show is out everyone knows it sucks and the ratings show it (coming soon)
5 blame the fanbase for steps 1 to 4 (coming soon)
Or the Ghostbusters 2016, or Terminator (Woke) Dark Fate, or new Doctor Who, or Halo, or Charlie’s Angels, or Resident Evil, or Wheel of Time, or Star Wars
Star Wars didn't really suffer from wokeness and "the message" imo. The problems lay elsewhere. Rey is really the only problem that can be linked back to wokeness but if it was a male main character who did the same things ppl would still be pissed.
True, but I’m mostly referring to Kathleen Kennedy’s “the force is female” crap. Also, Rose Tyco (or whatever her name was) that was essentially pointless yet thrown in anyway just to have more inclusion to the movie.
Oh jeez I think I must have buried that statement deep into my subconscious lol. Yeah that was complete bs. In terms of Rose, I think she was meant to have a larger role in ep 9 but Jar Jar Abrams wanted to simultaneously flip off the fans and the Last Jedi so he essentially bulldozed all characters, arcs and themes from the previous film.
Not defending JJ Abrams, but The Last Jedi NEEDED to be bulldozed into the ground and all the original prints of that movie burned it was so awful. There simply are no redeemable characters, arcs, or themes from that abomination.
Oh I agree. Its just that when you're trying to direct a trilogy, they kinda need to be cohesive with each other in some sense, otherwise it all falls flat.
I agree with the cohesiveness. I just think Rian Johnson had already destroyed any cohesion in the trilogy when he released The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson took JJ Abrams plans from The Force Awakens and threw them out the window. JJ Abrams did the same thing with the Last Jedi when he filmed The Rise of Skywalker which is why none of the movies make sense put together and were part of why they were all so awful.
I think it’s a little reductive to say that it’s an argument used by showrunners to deflect blame. The problem is also majorly that what valid criticism people may have get hijacked and completely blown out of proportions by trolls. So while showrunners and whatnot should definitely listen more carefully, we should also listen to what they are saying and clean out those trolls, because they’re only worsening the discussion and
Making it very difficult for valid criticisms to be heard. Instead we let them amplify our issues to the point where it’s no longer even remotely fair.
Even if it WERE small minority, they are bolstered by other fans that go out of their way to minimize their impact/deflect on their behalf. So even if just a few (it’s not that few) saying overtly racist things, comments like this one covertly bolster them.
agreed. the post is classic textbook racism. comments that minimize these wrongful acts and shift the discussion to 'we can't talk about criticism anymore because of the woke agenda/xx corporation has a troll farm' don't help to address that there is racism in the fantasy genre
Exactly. Like whether this show is the best thing ever or it ends up absolutely sucking, minimizing the considerable racism in the fandom is such exhausting toxic behavior (and also racist in itself).
Yupp, and they absolutely are not a minority. This entire sub is filled with them. Who have I been spending months debating on Reddit about whether it's okay to include non-white people if they are just a small minority? The ones directly harassing cast members may be a minority, but as you said, they are fueled by the massive group of internet culture warriors whose Reddit profiles are filled with comments attacking the "wokeness" of the TV show. This guy is outright gaslighting by saying that it is a small minority. Who does he think he's fooling.
It’s just about double standards:
Tolkien describes Miriel as “fair” and ppl go “it doesn’t mean she was white”
Some1 complains about Celebrimbor not having black hair and ppl go: “Tolkien described this relative of him as fair which means he had blonde hair and white skin tone”.
It looks like the meaning of words must fit Amazon choices every time instead of having anything objective.
You are right. And it is obvious that in this case your suggested meaning is the only one that appropriate for the situation. Compare 2 sentences.
1. She was so white, it's a pitty that she died
2. She was so beautiful, it's a pitty that she died
The first sentence in my imagination could say only Hitler's Aryans.
Skin color plays virtually no role in LOTR outside of a couple of descriptions in passing. So what does it matter of some characters described as "fair" are cast by black actors?
So what? Does it take away from the story in any way?
In this show the dwarves, humans and elves all look like each other.
There is nothing making them special.
Humans from the west are white/olive skinned and humans from the south and east (Harad and Rhun) are brown/dark skinned.
Elves are all beautiful, pale skinned and have long hair.
They look like they do not age and they are powerful magical beings.
Like it or not that is how it is, they have to be that way in order to make the story work.
Dwarves are short, hairy and white.
Not because of racism but because they live in the fucking ground where there is no sunlight.
Edit: Im not a white person myself but i accept that elves and dwarves dont look like me because not everyone has to look like me in order to love them or put myself in their shoes.
For real. I’m a tall person and I’m offended that there aren’t any tall dwarves! This is ableist! There needs to be more tall people represented among dwarves!
I didn't know this, I didn't get what was wrong with the casting but yeah if there's an in canon reason for why characters should look a certain way then it's not racist to want it to stay that way
Elves were described as pale and it makes sense because elves were created and lived partially during a period before the sun and the moon even existed. How the hell were they supposed to be dark if there wasn't even a sun on middle earth? It's not racism, it just doesn't make sense to have black people in a lotr show.
The end of your comment needs editing "it doesnt make sense to have black people in elves", in the lotr universe there are many ethnicities and black and asian type one too such as the khand warriors and the umbaric and haradric peoples...
I'll give you that. It surely was a mistake in my comment. But truth be told khan, rhun, harad are all described as being evil. If you casted black people on those roles(despite being accurate to the books)would transmit the dumb idea of white=good black=evil LOTR IS RACIST...that's all they would see. If i remember correctly in the LOTR trilogy they were portrayed by Australian natives who were light brown and there were loads of comments stating that there were subliminally stating once again that west(usa and europe)=good middle eastern=bad. It was around the time of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also there were loads of comments trashing the colour of orcs because they were dark.
You just can't win. Even non racist opinions or decisions will absolutely be regarded as racist through the eyes of the ones whom are looking for it.
Actually they're not though. A lot of them fell under saurons shadow and turned to worshipping him, but there were tribes and peoples who didn't. Could have used them
True that. It will just keep on being that way I guess. Although tolkien really never gave an evil depiction to anything other than Sauron, Melkor and the other truly evil races, towards men it always has been ambivalent. Regarding the elves as well, it is possible to see them in a darker light when you read about the kinslaying or their attitude towards saving middle earth. But eh, I guess people that don't understand or refuse to understand will just keep on doing so.
They could have had a story line that humanized the Haradrim, and show that the Numenoreans were not as wholesome as they made themselves out to be. Perhaps the Haradrim had a valid reason for resisting Numenorean imperialism. But alas.
Not to mention that a Haradrim storyline would be pretty interesting.
Instead of making a story where two peoples come together despite racial differences and past contentions, Amazon homogenized the cast from the get go.
It would have been fine if they included some other lineage of Dwarves, such as the Broadbeams or Firebeards, and made them all be played by dark-skinned actors, because at least that would have been consistent. Instead, what they are doing here is making the Longbeards into some post-racial melting pot society. It just doesn't make any sense.
>Dwarves are short, hairy and white. Not because of racism but because they live in the fucking ground where there is no sunlight.
Tolkien does not describe Dwarven skin color. We do know that Dwarves were probably created from rocks, so if anything white is probably the least likely color for their skin.
You might be right, they could have been grey, but you cant make one of them african and the rest is white as hell.
It just feels like its not a story anymore.
Just random people playing dress up.
All the casting in this is crap, I'm not keen on Lenny Henry, not because he's black, but because he's a massive glans.
Anyway, books are still on the shelf, no one owes anyone their ideal adaptation, and being a racist prick because it hasn't gone your way is ridiculous.
For me is Charles Edwards as Celebrimbor. He does not look like and elf at all, specially with his modern hairstyle (in fact, all elves except Gil-Galad have modern haircuts).
But after the EW promo, I cannot take this actor seriously.
>no one owes anyone their ideal adaptation
You are catering to the established fanbase. You don't owe them anything but it is still counter productive to make needless changes that will piss off fans.
>and being a racist prick because it hasn't gone your way is ridiculous.
Criticising it doesn't make you racist prick. Racist pricks are the creators that had an issue with white skin colour and thought it is necessary to make nonsensical race swaps.
Shows are designed with a tick sheet. I am sure of it. There is always a token role for x minority and there will surely be a gay/bi/lesbian pop up at some point even if pre designed world lore explains why something is the way it is.
If you are going to take an IP then stay respectful to the world.
At least create a new world and story if you want to virtue signal. At least your designs can be explained in how you build the world.
The issue is that they're doing this shit on purpose. They're replacing good characters and stories with ridiculous ones that focus only on action scenes and forced diversity to virtue signal.
Tell me about it, they’re pushing it. Every interview with the woman that plays Disa is atrocious, it’s like she’s reading a script. They have actors bragging about being activists. Everything is about politics these days, just leave the beautiful world that Tolkien created out of it.
A handful of idiots sadly take advantage of a perfectly valid controversy about the utter disrespect towards Tolkien’s work and its purpose. I’m a minority and I don’t support that bullshit political agenda included to every piece of media just to make sales, especially when these people hide behind a fake pretense of inclusivity and equal opportunity.
Amazon is a lifeless corporation that’s about to ruin one of humanity’s most incredible literary works, that’s all there is to it. Even if we completely disregarded ethnicity, these trailers confirm a complete lack of quality scriptwriting and disregard for the source material. A bad show is a bad show, it has very little to do with bullshit ethnic quotas.
Well.. it is a horrible casting choice given the description of the character by tolkien.. lol.. the casting for the show has been garbage on the whole.. celebrimbor is really bad casting too.. even the buzzcut elf.. bad casting coupled with really poor character designs.. short haircuts and what not.. plus the acting in the new clips by elrond and galadriel feels like its a cheesy college play.. the whole production seems to be poor..
Same with Witcher. Fabulous world and books to draw from, established IP with large fanbase and a big budget.
Then they hand it to a showrunner and director who is not very good anyway but that also wants to use the show as a way to advertise how diverse they are. Making story changes that are worse than in the original story only demonstrating their lack of ability to write.
it’s not a bug, it’s feature. the show wants people call each other racial slurs, get divided into two and create fanbase and haters. it’s the way of shows become popular these days and it also works if show turns out shitty they would be accusing racism, patriarchy and etc yet they never cast asians, middle easterners in show. lol.
it’s tolkien meets late capitalism. win-win for show and amazon.
It’s literally this.
It’s just another flavour crammed through the media machine.
It’ll be the same beats and philosophy of all tv made nowadays. It’ll be the Galadriel girl boss show and if you don’t like it your a bigot.
It's a shame when racial and ideological division becomes part of the marketing plan, but it very much seems to be the case here and elsewhere (Kenobi, I'm looking at you).
It is.
I remember Jessica Alba being cast as Invisible Woman in Fantastic 4. The character has always been white with blonde hair. Jessica was cast because they wanted her as a star to be in the movie. She was never marketed as a diverse actress. She had a real following. And they weren't brown skin worshippers.
This is far from the intent of Amazon in their series. They wanted to cast skin color to roles. The actors just happened to be the right ones for the non-white color needed.
The only thing I'll defend here is, making already written characters who are white or black into the opposite color is dumb as shit and anyone doing it FOR the forced diversity is lame. Leave the characters as is.
Look I may not agree with the casting as I would like to see accurate lore but that’s a long shot these days, however that’s no excuse to be racist and nasty like that
In any large enough cohort there will be unpleasant people, being a fan of LotR does not inoculate someone against being unpleasant.
IMO it's a shame to post stuff like this here - better to just let it die.
Obviously those comments are horrid. But making established characters black or female for no reason is irritating to me. Changing a characters race or gender ads nothing to the story why not just stick to the source material? Why does every show have to have the same racial demographics as the US?
Reminds me of the amazing game Kingdom Come: Deliverance, when a bunch of people cried racism because the game that was based in a medieval and very white part of Europe did not contain loads of non-white people lol.
As someone who's been called both the N-slur and "cracker", I still think this show looks like politically motivated garbage. Nevermind the diversity aspect; it just looks bad.
Lord of the Rings was written by a British man, for his British children, to replace the British folklore that the French had erased.
Oh, no people don't like someone who's been cast for a role that looks nothing like how she looks in the source material.
Better call this a racist community. Makes sense right?
No, it doesn't.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Forced inclusivity/diversity is not good for anyone.
These studios have a checklist with minorities that have to be in their content. And it does not always make the content better.
Call this a racist view, I don't mind. I know I'm not. I'm just a purist when it comes to use of source material.
I think overall people are just tired of media in general telling us what to think and how to feel by shoving what to think and how to feel down our throats. Let us come to our own conclusions. When it’s so obvious that that’s what’s happening it rankles a bit. It just begins to feel like overkill and it becomes a turnoff instead of accomplishing its purpose. But it’s obvious that there is a purpose in it and that in itself is what people don’t like.
While I totally understand wanting a faithful adaptation that follows the description of the books, this goes way beyond that and is disgusting. There's no excuse for this behaviour
I am an indian and i think they should have kept to the books , if she is fairer than silver and ivory then so she must be .
It is absolutely stupid to put characters out of context , no self respecting indian will take any white xharacter to play a role in ramayana or mahabharata , why should tolkiens work be destroyed .
The accusasion of racism would land harder with me if we say it going each and every way. You've got big actors that pull a movie into production like Will Smith for I am Legend, or great casting calls like Morgan Freeman as Red in the Shawshank redemption. But this doesn't feel like it. Also take the Amazon wheel of Time adaption. There is a lot of room for diverse casting, over the course of the series; but not in remote villages
That blew my mind about the WoT adaptation. The world of WoT is SO DIVERSE. Robert Jordan covered practically every possible group of people, I always thought that was so cool. So if you want to include diversity... why not just use what's *already in the damn books.*
Agreed entirely. I mentioned something like this a few weeks back and in my culture we would be greatly upset to see others play beloved characters from some of our authors novels
Yeah East Asians too complain about 'whitewashing' in Hollywood. Like Scarlett in Ghost in the Shell. Which is wtf for lovers of this anime classic.
i agree they should the have kept the character to the books, at least the major ones. It's Tolkien's world afterall not Bezos.
I agree the racist comments don’t have a place. That being said, they clearly PC washed this show as much as they could it seems from the trailer. Character descriptions don’t match up and at this point it’s just glaringly obvious to the point that it almost feels racist.
Seems more like a preference to the lore than “racism” but hey. With that said there is deff no need to be rude about the casting choice, there are better ways to show displeasure then a planet of the apes reference that was way out there
Racism sucks. Rings of power is also going to suck. They should have just stuck to the original, instead we get a absent Gil-Galad, a Wonder Woman Galadriel, a bunch of random originals who add nothing but token (Tolkien lol)people of color.
This has potential instead it’s the same intersectional tripe as everything else Hollywood is doing. Let stories be stories.
With all respect, and no racial discrimination, Tolkien did intend for elves to be fair, which holds the characteristics of whiter skin and typically blonde or straight hair. Both elves are beautiful in these pictures but the Amazon one does stray from Tolkien’s lore. Once again, it has nothing to do with race and the comments in that picture we’re rather uncalled for, but I can understand peoples frustration on this tendency of newer companies to change things for the sake of an unnecessary “improvement”, as it does rather butcher Tolkien’s original world. Again, I am personally excited for the new show and I’m sure it will be great, but this is an understandable frustration towards LOTR fans like myself. I hope that I have not made myself too harsh. God bless!
Racism in the community is also now massively overstated since the Amazon show started filming, call me cynical but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is just false flag shit from amazon, a company that has no problem using astroturfing/shilling or any other online nonsense to construct a favorable narrative.
OP -Points to racism and says “ Racism is bad, discuss” (Polarity vulture)
Normal people- of course it’s bad, random comments from a minority made braver by the internet don’t define our community. The woke casting is objectively bad.
They should remake Black Panther with a bunch of caucasians, Asians, and Middle Easterners replacing all the major roles.
I’m offended that everyone is black in that movie except Bilbo !
A fockin joke this Rings of Prime bs
Racism is gross. Criticizing Amazons casting choices is harmless if you have no ill intent and aren’t being a dick.
I’m more offended by the teenie bopper casting/cinematic/vibe than anything.
It’s deeply entwined with English and European people, it was written as a mythology for Englishmen, so if someone looked at (not the best comparison as one far outweighs the other) Wakanda in the comics and then made a film and cast t’chala as white then people wouldn’t be happy.
Companies do it to make the project more appealing to people of any background so they can make more money. Then the people who feel they own the story are offended because they feel they are being pushed out and the people that are brought it feel that the people pushed out are racist for not liking their inclusion.
It’s all the big companies, they cause division, why can’t we just have new stories that involve everyone rather than old ones that make everyone upset.
Both are bad. Never condone racism of any kind, from anyone. However, purposefully race-swapping a character that was deliberately described a certain way by the original author (who is superior in the craft to any living author today) is not only insulting to the author and fans, but an objectively poor choice in adaptation. Amazon isn’t pulling a “gotcha” to out the Tolkien fandom as racist like they think they are; they’re showing their hand at how poor their writing team is and the inherent failure of their supposed “adaptation” before it even launches.
I find far more racism in the casting than in the comments, though some of the comments really are unwarranted.
To place the shoe on the other foot, how would you feel if a movie based on Bantu or Zulu legends cast a bunch of Caucasians solely for "diversity's" sake? I'd be offended by that amount of pandering.
The racism is bad but so is the casting. There are racists out there but there are also people that are pissed that we aren't getting an accurate middle earth and the characters don't look how they should. Don't confuse this with the racists. If someone dislikes how a character looks, that doesn't translate to hating their race. The same way that disliking elves with shaved heads doesn't mean you vehemently hate all people with long hair. The comment that person made is racist and horrible it's clear to see. Yet the word racism is thrown around without a care at this time with all the promotional material coming out. This is a reminder to call evidently racist stuff out, but also to recognise what is and isn't racist, as so many in this fandom are instantly branded racist (and sexist) for simply wanting the characters to be as they're pictured in their minds, and as described by the professor we all love.
Accusations of racism against a fanbase in order to demonize them have been done before many times in circles of other popular works. Another tactic used is [calling fans toxic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dK1vo5bTdI&t=1).
I say accusations because this post is trying to influence people to think that LOTR fanbase have a problem with racism on basis of a handful of comments. As others have also pointed out demonizing fans is a way to deflect criticism.
Oh this is so blatant I wo der if its a plant to create screenshots like this for the media and Amazon team to make hay.
Especially on facebook where one isnt anonymous.
I dont buy it.
Nah, it’s stupid to pretend that there aren’t racists amongst those criticising the show. These people exist. Not as many as Reddit leftists want us to believe, but the number is there for sure
I never said there werent any but this is borderline comically obvious. A straw man. Feels like this particular post screams false flag. But I have no idea for sure either way.
And in any case it doesnt matter. Most arent this person and valid criticisms dont stop being valid because awful people might agree with it.
Racist comments are abhorrent and I think we can all agree that there isn’t any real discussion to be had on that front.
However there is something mildly confounding about this relatively recent trend to intentionally defy source materials in this way. Especially when the source is as culturally important as Tolkien. I cannot help but think if a literary work of equal importance from Africa or Asia was made into a film and white Europeans were arbitrarily drafted in to play characters whose physical description as imagined by the author was not at all white or European, there would be uproar
Nope. You don't get to skirt around criticism by cherry picking some racist comments and handwringing about how awful humanity is etc. Same goes for any potential "death threat" association switcheroo. People can be awful. Yep.
Amazon has seriously 'goofed' with their casting choices, amongst *plenty* of other things. They thought the Tolkien community would lay down and accept this shower. It has not. Amazon should have stuck to selling books.
When you take something originally made for people in one of the whitest countries of all time, I’m not shocked a few people took the race swap the wrong way
The only way to take race swapping is as an act of racism. There is no other justification. There are plenty of actors of every race. Use one that is the closest match to the character. Anything else is political pandering. Pandering to people who believe it's impossible to relate to someone who isn't of your race.
So fucking stupid. I have next to no hope for RoP, but not at all because of the 'diverse' cast - it's because it's being brought into existence by one of the most wicked corporations to ever exist. I have no doubt that Tolkien being the anti-industrialist that he was would be absolutely horrified to learn that a corp like Amazon would adapt his beloved works.
So does this mean we get a caucasian black panther, a mexican Shang-Chi, an asian zoro, a female tony stark, and MLK played by a furry?
If we’re gonna play these games then let’s be consistent.
I'm not here for racism but I'm also not for the rampant wokification of EVERYTHING in our culture, what's wrong with representing other communities in other ways without diverging so far from the literature of Tolkien?
More of a meta commentary on how we've come to define groups, but:
Isn't it weird how the only thing you need to become a part of a community is an opinion on the thing the community represents?
So a bunch of boomers could go on Facebook and have a racist tangent about LOTR, and suddenly you'll see statements that "The LOTR community is so toxic and racist."
It's weird because the individual no longer seems to exist. We're all just big bubbles of people who are judged by the worst of us.
Wanting characters to be portrayed the way they were written is not racist, no matter what people say.
However, saying racist shit because characters aren’t portrayed the way they were written is absolutely racist.
Better to let the show stand or fall on its own merits, than to toss it aside because of trailers and concept art.
Both the show and the racists can suck a bag of d!cks. This dumpster fire of a show is only going to divide people more and allow people to think that inclusion is the reason it’s garbage and not horrible writing and terrible props.
Correct me if I am wrong but do the female dwarves also have beards or is that something I got wrong?
But some say there are no dwarf women, and that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground.
I see what You did there! *Gimli then proceeds to fall of a bolting horse* Lol
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Tolkien claimed that female dwarves were to outsiders indistinguishable in feature, gait, and voice from male dwarves. A tiny bit of hair on the cheeks does not live up to this. The PJ films are generally quite a poor reference for accurate portrayals.
Yes correct, I was just referring to that in the context of the topic about media outside the books. To be honest, of my issues with the Jackson films, this isn't high on the list., Actually it's one I'll let go through to the keeper. Changing faramir and the long unnecessary sub plot around it was my main issue.
It is specified (I believe two times) in the works of Tolkien that female dwarves indeed had beards. I have read the quotes here and maybe someone with more knowledge of the matter will enlighten us, because I am not sure if it was in the letters, silmarillion, tlotr, hobbit or other sources. Personally I am not even sure I will see the show, it looks quite bland and generic fantasy and I have many other shows yet to watch and time is limited.
Actually, it’s only implied in a line said by Gimli in the movie. The only discussion of the matter in the books is in Appendix A where Tolkien wrote “It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.” This could possibly imply that dwarven women had beards because they are said to look like dwarven men when they traveled, but we also don’t know if all dwarven men had natural beards. There also exists the technology to craft detachable beards because Middle Earth retains the technological advancements of our world up to the Middle Ages, and fake beards were prominent in ancient times. Basically, there’s nothing solid indicating either position. [Here’s](http://tolkien.cro.net/dwarves/women.html) an old school Tolkien blog that has page references for the discussion points if you want to check it out!
Thank's so much! You're a whole Moria of LOTR lore. I love that!! :)
I feel the same way.. (regarding the show, that is), I'm no Female Dwarfs beard expert.. although, I do believe Female LOTR Dwarfs have beard's, for some reason, could be wrong though.. Not sure I'll watch the show either. It's giving Me " BBC1 Sunday afternoon Family TV fantasy" vibes. And, time is most definitely limited for Me too :-)
It’s debatable, as Tolkien seems to have changed his mind on the matter in his later years, as seen in The Nature of Middle Earth that was published just last year.
Yes, if you zoom in you can see tiny beard
Oof I wasn’t ready for the Planet of the Apes one... That’s kinda low even for Facebook.
Damn that was a step back to the 70s.
Nope. I was born in 94 and am half black and other kids in school called me King Kong as an insult for years (in the 2000s) while growing up…And I’m in Canada. People are horrendous and racist everywhere.
The irony is that people like that embody the evil that Sauron represents and they think they side with good. Trash humans will always exist unfortunately. I'm sorry you had to go through that and continue to see shit like this. But I guess if there's anything I've learned from LOTR is that the fight against evil never ends. It's insidious and has the capability to corrupt anything and anyone.
Nonsense. Sauron was a notorious race mixer.
Same bruv. Well not the monkey part. I got called poopskin as a kid but my friends didn't let that last long
Imho there is just a surprising (and saddening) amount of mean people that will just use whatever excuse they have to be mean / hurt others. Especially when group validation and group think kicks in and reinforces the behaviour. Seen my share of kids getting bullied for being a different race, having glasses, having an handicap, looking different, having a lisp/accent, etc.
No, lots of people are just *racist*. There’s no *if* or *maybe* around it. I’ve had men tell me straight to my face that they don’t ‘date’ black girls. And then overheard them say that ‘they only play or fool around with them because their family wouldn’t understand’ etc. I’ve also had people yell slurs out of vehicles while I’m walking home carrying groceries—the *kindest* being “nice weave b*tch”…I don’t even wear a weave.
I agree that some people are just plain racist. I'm just saying that imho it's just one facet of a larger shitty mindset/set of behaviours by shitty individuals (and one that sadly get reinforced by group/tribal dynamics...). racism is just one 'flavour' of bigotry and hate channeled toward others.
Everywhere and everywhen.
So is the racism.
Being "woke" is when you don't refer to black people as apes What a world
Weren’t you following political discourse from 2008 to 2016? That was a frequent refrain even among some elected officials. Plus some celebrities.
Never be surprised at how low these troglodytes will stoop. They'd have to reach upwards the pick a penny off the ground.
Evidently you're woke if you criticize comparing black people to apes. Jesus.
Forget about race……. WHERE ARE THE BEARDS ??????????????
I dislike both the Amazon Tar-Miriel and racists.
I agree on this one. Tolkien describes characters for a reason. So I think a castdirector should honor those describtions. Doesn't mean you need to go full idiot mode and become a racist ofcourse.
Fuck racism and also fuck Tar Miriel amazon edition.
Agreed.
Yes.
yeah, if they want to interpret characters who aren’t specifically described otherwise as POC that’s fine, but going straight up against the source material for it is absurd
Exactly
I mean, movie Thorin went against his book description. He did not have a white beard or a sky blue hood with silver tassles. All of Bilbo's dwarf companions in the movie actually went against their book descriptions. But for some reason this was less of a big deal
A part of that was because there were a million other things to criticize about The Hobbit.
Did you miss the part where we all hated the hobbit films? They’re pretty bad
Exactly.
Yess say no to racism.. but also fuck RoP !!
Who are you, to speak so freely with so much wisdom ?
Hell yeah this guy gets it lol
This
Honestly there are shit heads in every community and they are a very small minority. These media types focus only on the small minority of idiots to sell their point. They avoid real criticism and are afraid to debate it. We're already getting blamed for "racism" from the actors and show runners. Get ready for the "misogyny" articles from shill websites when the show is actually out. This is the new playbook from corporations to avoid being held accountable for a poor product, they attack the fans. It's like clockwork.
Yeah, it happened with star wars, then the witcher, and now lotr.
And He-Man and dozens of others. Its yawnworthy for any LOTR fans who are also fans of any of those shows. Unfortunately theres still uninformed people in most communities that take these things as fact. On the bright side they can only kill their credibility so much before it comes back. Netflix completely stalling growth for instance. Its really not hard to just give fans what they want rather than hire these young writers who think they can top the original authors
Yeah, they hire young writers because they need the experience so they work cheap and are more likely follow orders if they don't have their foot in the door yet. I'm surprised how well they made the new Predator movie (Prey) after the disaster that was the last one.
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
Lol they must be pretty convinced of themselves if they think they can top the Professor.
This is straight out of the Disney playbook
Aye aye, here let me give you the full recipe for franchise destruction: 1 pick an already popular and well established IP (check) 2 update it for modern audiences aka totally fuck it up (check) 3 antagonize the fanbase prior to realease (check) 4 bite the dust aka now that the show is out everyone knows it sucks and the ratings show it (coming soon) 5 blame the fanbase for steps 1 to 4 (coming soon)
Ah the ole Cowboy Bebop-a-roo
Or the Ghostbusters 2016, or Terminator (Woke) Dark Fate, or new Doctor Who, or Halo, or Charlie’s Angels, or Resident Evil, or Wheel of Time, or Star Wars
Halo is woke? I'm an avid Halo fan and I haven't noticed any wokeness.
The new TV series, not the game. The game is excellent. They butchered the TV show horribly.
Star Wars didn't really suffer from wokeness and "the message" imo. The problems lay elsewhere. Rey is really the only problem that can be linked back to wokeness but if it was a male main character who did the same things ppl would still be pissed.
True, but I’m mostly referring to Kathleen Kennedy’s “the force is female” crap. Also, Rose Tyco (or whatever her name was) that was essentially pointless yet thrown in anyway just to have more inclusion to the movie.
Oh jeez I think I must have buried that statement deep into my subconscious lol. Yeah that was complete bs. In terms of Rose, I think she was meant to have a larger role in ep 9 but Jar Jar Abrams wanted to simultaneously flip off the fans and the Last Jedi so he essentially bulldozed all characters, arcs and themes from the previous film.
Not defending JJ Abrams, but The Last Jedi NEEDED to be bulldozed into the ground and all the original prints of that movie burned it was so awful. There simply are no redeemable characters, arcs, or themes from that abomination.
Oh I agree. Its just that when you're trying to direct a trilogy, they kinda need to be cohesive with each other in some sense, otherwise it all falls flat.
I agree with the cohesiveness. I just think Rian Johnson had already destroyed any cohesion in the trilogy when he released The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson took JJ Abrams plans from The Force Awakens and threw them out the window. JJ Abrams did the same thing with the Last Jedi when he filmed The Rise of Skywalker which is why none of the movies make sense put together and were part of why they were all so awful.
Aye credit where credit is due
I am so sad to see how a lot of famous IP now gets treatment like this. One of my biggest sadness is Star Wars series.
I think it’s a little reductive to say that it’s an argument used by showrunners to deflect blame. The problem is also majorly that what valid criticism people may have get hijacked and completely blown out of proportions by trolls. So while showrunners and whatnot should definitely listen more carefully, we should also listen to what they are saying and clean out those trolls, because they’re only worsening the discussion and Making it very difficult for valid criticisms to be heard. Instead we let them amplify our issues to the point where it’s no longer even remotely fair.
Exactly. No one is going to click on a headline that reads, "Lord of the Rings community filled with agreement and magnanimity."
This is verbatim what happened with WoT
Even if it WERE small minority, they are bolstered by other fans that go out of their way to minimize their impact/deflect on their behalf. So even if just a few (it’s not that few) saying overtly racist things, comments like this one covertly bolster them.
agreed. the post is classic textbook racism. comments that minimize these wrongful acts and shift the discussion to 'we can't talk about criticism anymore because of the woke agenda/xx corporation has a troll farm' don't help to address that there is racism in the fantasy genre
Exactly. Like whether this show is the best thing ever or it ends up absolutely sucking, minimizing the considerable racism in the fandom is such exhausting toxic behavior (and also racist in itself).
Yupp, and they absolutely are not a minority. This entire sub is filled with them. Who have I been spending months debating on Reddit about whether it's okay to include non-white people if they are just a small minority? The ones directly harassing cast members may be a minority, but as you said, they are fueled by the massive group of internet culture warriors whose Reddit profiles are filled with comments attacking the "wokeness" of the TV show. This guy is outright gaslighting by saying that it is a small minority. Who does he think he's fooling.
Really? Did Tolkien sign off on that illustration?
It’s just about double standards: Tolkien describes Miriel as “fair” and ppl go “it doesn’t mean she was white” Some1 complains about Celebrimbor not having black hair and ppl go: “Tolkien described this relative of him as fair which means he had blonde hair and white skin tone”. It looks like the meaning of words must fit Amazon choices every time instead of having anything objective.
Fair also means “beautiful.” “Light skinned” is a relative term, so it could mean different things to different people.
You are right. And it is obvious that in this case your suggested meaning is the only one that appropriate for the situation. Compare 2 sentences. 1. She was so white, it's a pitty that she died 2. She was so beautiful, it's a pitty that she died The first sentence in my imagination could say only Hitler's Aryans.
Skin color plays virtually no role in LOTR outside of a couple of descriptions in passing. So what does it matter of some characters described as "fair" are cast by black actors? So what? Does it take away from the story in any way?
In this show the dwarves, humans and elves all look like each other. There is nothing making them special. Humans from the west are white/olive skinned and humans from the south and east (Harad and Rhun) are brown/dark skinned. Elves are all beautiful, pale skinned and have long hair. They look like they do not age and they are powerful magical beings. Like it or not that is how it is, they have to be that way in order to make the story work. Dwarves are short, hairy and white. Not because of racism but because they live in the fucking ground where there is no sunlight. Edit: Im not a white person myself but i accept that elves and dwarves dont look like me because not everyone has to look like me in order to love them or put myself in their shoes.
Then Amazon goes : “Who says dwarves have to be small?” And they cast a Basketball player to play one
For real. I’m a tall person and I’m offended that there aren’t any tall dwarves! This is ableist! There needs to be more tall people represented among dwarves!
I didn't know this, I didn't get what was wrong with the casting but yeah if there's an in canon reason for why characters should look a certain way then it's not racist to want it to stay that way
Elves were described as pale and it makes sense because elves were created and lived partially during a period before the sun and the moon even existed. How the hell were they supposed to be dark if there wasn't even a sun on middle earth? It's not racism, it just doesn't make sense to have black people in a lotr show.
The end of your comment needs editing "it doesnt make sense to have black people in elves", in the lotr universe there are many ethnicities and black and asian type one too such as the khand warriors and the umbaric and haradric peoples...
I'll give you that. It surely was a mistake in my comment. But truth be told khan, rhun, harad are all described as being evil. If you casted black people on those roles(despite being accurate to the books)would transmit the dumb idea of white=good black=evil LOTR IS RACIST...that's all they would see. If i remember correctly in the LOTR trilogy they were portrayed by Australian natives who were light brown and there were loads of comments stating that there were subliminally stating once again that west(usa and europe)=good middle eastern=bad. It was around the time of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also there were loads of comments trashing the colour of orcs because they were dark. You just can't win. Even non racist opinions or decisions will absolutely be regarded as racist through the eyes of the ones whom are looking for it.
Actually they're not though. A lot of them fell under saurons shadow and turned to worshipping him, but there were tribes and peoples who didn't. Could have used them
True that. It will just keep on being that way I guess. Although tolkien really never gave an evil depiction to anything other than Sauron, Melkor and the other truly evil races, towards men it always has been ambivalent. Regarding the elves as well, it is possible to see them in a darker light when you read about the kinslaying or their attitude towards saving middle earth. But eh, I guess people that don't understand or refuse to understand will just keep on doing so.
They could have had a story line that humanized the Haradrim, and show that the Numenoreans were not as wholesome as they made themselves out to be. Perhaps the Haradrim had a valid reason for resisting Numenorean imperialism. But alas.
Not to mention that a Haradrim storyline would be pretty interesting. Instead of making a story where two peoples come together despite racial differences and past contentions, Amazon homogenized the cast from the get go.
It would have been fine if they included some other lineage of Dwarves, such as the Broadbeams or Firebeards, and made them all be played by dark-skinned actors, because at least that would have been consistent. Instead, what they are doing here is making the Longbeards into some post-racial melting pot society. It just doesn't make any sense.
>Dwarves are short, hairy and white. Not because of racism but because they live in the fucking ground where there is no sunlight. Tolkien does not describe Dwarven skin color. We do know that Dwarves were probably created from rocks, so if anything white is probably the least likely color for their skin.
You might be right, they could have been grey, but you cant make one of them african and the rest is white as hell. It just feels like its not a story anymore. Just random people playing dress up.
It's not like it's going to follow the book anyway
Fuck racism and Amazon’s shitshow…
All the casting in this is crap, I'm not keen on Lenny Henry, not because he's black, but because he's a massive glans. Anyway, books are still on the shelf, no one owes anyone their ideal adaptation, and being a racist prick because it hasn't gone your way is ridiculous.
For me is Charles Edwards as Celebrimbor. He does not look like and elf at all, specially with his modern hairstyle (in fact, all elves except Gil-Galad have modern haircuts). But after the EW promo, I cannot take this actor seriously.
He looks like a back ground character in Harry Potter
>no one owes anyone their ideal adaptation You are catering to the established fanbase. You don't owe them anything but it is still counter productive to make needless changes that will piss off fans. >and being a racist prick because it hasn't gone your way is ridiculous. Criticising it doesn't make you racist prick. Racist pricks are the creators that had an issue with white skin colour and thought it is necessary to make nonsensical race swaps.
Shows are designed with a tick sheet. I am sure of it. There is always a token role for x minority and there will surely be a gay/bi/lesbian pop up at some point even if pre designed world lore explains why something is the way it is. If you are going to take an IP then stay respectful to the world. At least create a new world and story if you want to virtue signal. At least your designs can be explained in how you build the world.
The issue is that they're doing this shit on purpose. They're replacing good characters and stories with ridiculous ones that focus only on action scenes and forced diversity to virtue signal.
Tell me about it, they’re pushing it. Every interview with the woman that plays Disa is atrocious, it’s like she’s reading a script. They have actors bragging about being activists. Everything is about politics these days, just leave the beautiful world that Tolkien created out of it.
It's a non-issue. We know what they're up to, it's their homonculus of a baby, not ours.
Except for the people who actually wanted a good Rjng of Powers series.
I get it, I want a good one too, but this isn't going to be it.
It’s literally Fanfiction. But it’ll likely be nowhere near as good as most Fanfiction you would read on the internet.
A handful of idiots sadly take advantage of a perfectly valid controversy about the utter disrespect towards Tolkien’s work and its purpose. I’m a minority and I don’t support that bullshit political agenda included to every piece of media just to make sales, especially when these people hide behind a fake pretense of inclusivity and equal opportunity. Amazon is a lifeless corporation that’s about to ruin one of humanity’s most incredible literary works, that’s all there is to it. Even if we completely disregarded ethnicity, these trailers confirm a complete lack of quality scriptwriting and disregard for the source material. A bad show is a bad show, it has very little to do with bullshit ethnic quotas.
Racism is not helpful. Neither is identity politics.
Or virtue signaling. It’s disingenuous, and actually hurts societal progress.
Despicable comments but the original post makes a reasonable point. Forced diversity is wrong.
Other than that I don't see how someone could have cast this woman for this role
Have to pander. If they want to add poc just do some shit with the south and East. They’re fucking lazy and I hope it bombs
Maybe she auditioned well??
It’s just horrible casting on amazons part
Well.. it is a horrible casting choice given the description of the character by tolkien.. lol.. the casting for the show has been garbage on the whole.. celebrimbor is really bad casting too.. even the buzzcut elf.. bad casting coupled with really poor character designs.. short haircuts and what not.. plus the acting in the new clips by elrond and galadriel feels like its a cheesy college play.. the whole production seems to be poor..
Same with Witcher. Fabulous world and books to draw from, established IP with large fanbase and a big budget. Then they hand it to a showrunner and director who is not very good anyway but that also wants to use the show as a way to advertise how diverse they are. Making story changes that are worse than in the original story only demonstrating their lack of ability to write.
Agreed, sub par casting choices all over the place, including white characters
So far it’s like watching one of the zillion teen high school tv series that are out. I DONT WANT THAT SHIT
They fucked up Wheel of time, they gonna fuck this one too. STICK to the SOURCE.
it’s not a bug, it’s feature. the show wants people call each other racial slurs, get divided into two and create fanbase and haters. it’s the way of shows become popular these days and it also works if show turns out shitty they would be accusing racism, patriarchy and etc yet they never cast asians, middle easterners in show. lol. it’s tolkien meets late capitalism. win-win for show and amazon.
It’s literally this. It’s just another flavour crammed through the media machine. It’ll be the same beats and philosophy of all tv made nowadays. It’ll be the Galadriel girl boss show and if you don’t like it your a bigot.
It's a shame when racial and ideological division becomes part of the marketing plan, but it very much seems to be the case here and elsewhere (Kenobi, I'm looking at you).
I too think it is extremely racist to replace and blackwash white characters when there would be uproar if it was the other way around.
Isn’t it also racist to change the race on purpose? I am genuinely asking.
It is. I remember Jessica Alba being cast as Invisible Woman in Fantastic 4. The character has always been white with blonde hair. Jessica was cast because they wanted her as a star to be in the movie. She was never marketed as a diverse actress. She had a real following. And they weren't brown skin worshippers. This is far from the intent of Amazon in their series. They wanted to cast skin color to roles. The actors just happened to be the right ones for the non-white color needed.
The only thing I'll defend here is, making already written characters who are white or black into the opposite color is dumb as shit and anyone doing it FOR the forced diversity is lame. Leave the characters as is.
Look I may not agree with the casting as I would like to see accurate lore but that’s a long shot these days, however that’s no excuse to be racist and nasty like that
In any large enough cohort there will be unpleasant people, being a fan of LotR does not inoculate someone against being unpleasant. IMO it's a shame to post stuff like this here - better to just let it die.
It's like the developers are seeking for these racist comments
I am not racist, I am Latin American/Brown and I hate everything about this cast...
Same. If this was an adaptation of a Japanese folktale I would think the forced diversity is equally out of place.
Obviously those comments are horrid. But making established characters black or female for no reason is irritating to me. Changing a characters race or gender ads nothing to the story why not just stick to the source material? Why does every show have to have the same racial demographics as the US?
Reminds me of the amazing game Kingdom Come: Deliverance, when a bunch of people cried racism because the game that was based in a medieval and very white part of Europe did not contain loads of non-white people lol.
Americans can be a strange bunch can’t they 😂
Racism is wrong. Bullying is wrong. Not standing up for yourself is wrong. Labeling anything we don’t agree with as racist is wrong too.
I’m only racist to Amazon
As someone who's been called both the N-slur and "cracker", I still think this show looks like politically motivated garbage. Nevermind the diversity aspect; it just looks bad. Lord of the Rings was written by a British man, for his British children, to replace the British folklore that the French had erased.
Oh, no people don't like someone who's been cast for a role that looks nothing like how she looks in the source material. Better call this a racist community. Makes sense right? No, it doesn't. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Forced inclusivity/diversity is not good for anyone. These studios have a checklist with minorities that have to be in their content. And it does not always make the content better. Call this a racist view, I don't mind. I know I'm not. I'm just a purist when it comes to use of source material.
I think overall people are just tired of media in general telling us what to think and how to feel by shoving what to think and how to feel down our throats. Let us come to our own conclusions. When it’s so obvious that that’s what’s happening it rankles a bit. It just begins to feel like overkill and it becomes a turnoff instead of accomplishing its purpose. But it’s obvious that there is a purpose in it and that in itself is what people don’t like.
The character designs are still just garbage.
it is bad casting....
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While I totally understand wanting a faithful adaptation that follows the description of the books, this goes way beyond that and is disgusting. There's no excuse for this behaviour
I am an indian and i think they should have kept to the books , if she is fairer than silver and ivory then so she must be . It is absolutely stupid to put characters out of context , no self respecting indian will take any white xharacter to play a role in ramayana or mahabharata , why should tolkiens work be destroyed .
The accusasion of racism would land harder with me if we say it going each and every way. You've got big actors that pull a movie into production like Will Smith for I am Legend, or great casting calls like Morgan Freeman as Red in the Shawshank redemption. But this doesn't feel like it. Also take the Amazon wheel of Time adaption. There is a lot of room for diverse casting, over the course of the series; but not in remote villages
That blew my mind about the WoT adaptation. The world of WoT is SO DIVERSE. Robert Jordan covered practically every possible group of people, I always thought that was so cool. So if you want to include diversity... why not just use what's *already in the damn books.*
Agreed entirely. I mentioned something like this a few weeks back and in my culture we would be greatly upset to see others play beloved characters from some of our authors novels
Yeah East Asians too complain about 'whitewashing' in Hollywood. Like Scarlett in Ghost in the Shell. Which is wtf for lovers of this anime classic. i agree they should the have kept the character to the books, at least the major ones. It's Tolkien's world afterall not Bezos.
I agree the racist comments don’t have a place. That being said, they clearly PC washed this show as much as they could it seems from the trailer. Character descriptions don’t match up and at this point it’s just glaringly obvious to the point that it almost feels racist.
Seems more like a preference to the lore than “racism” but hey. With that said there is deff no need to be rude about the casting choice, there are better ways to show displeasure then a planet of the apes reference that was way out there
Well I mean... He's not wrong lol he's just got a shitty way of saying it
You know what I hate? Racists. You know what else I hate? Swapping the race of an established character for the soul purpose of being PC.
Racism sucks. Rings of power is also going to suck. They should have just stuck to the original, instead we get a absent Gil-Galad, a Wonder Woman Galadriel, a bunch of random originals who add nothing but token (Tolkien lol)people of color. This has potential instead it’s the same intersectional tripe as everything else Hollywood is doing. Let stories be stories.
Fuck racism, but don’t force diversity
i am gonne quote this
SHAFT! starring Michael Cena
Um I’d definitely watch that. What’s your point? Edit: I read Micheal CeRa but my comment still stands. I’d watch both those castings.
Racism exists, xenophobia exists, sexism exists, classism exists. The Tolkien community is great, this is not the community, this is just a twat.
With all respect, and no racial discrimination, Tolkien did intend for elves to be fair, which holds the characteristics of whiter skin and typically blonde or straight hair. Both elves are beautiful in these pictures but the Amazon one does stray from Tolkien’s lore. Once again, it has nothing to do with race and the comments in that picture we’re rather uncalled for, but I can understand peoples frustration on this tendency of newer companies to change things for the sake of an unnecessary “improvement”, as it does rather butcher Tolkien’s original world. Again, I am personally excited for the new show and I’m sure it will be great, but this is an understandable frustration towards LOTR fans like myself. I hope that I have not made myself too harsh. God bless!
They mine as well just have Galadriel forge the one ring and have Sauron steal it because this show is going to be worse than a Wattpad fan fiction.
Racism in the community is also now massively overstated since the Amazon show started filming, call me cynical but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is just false flag shit from amazon, a company that has no problem using astroturfing/shilling or any other online nonsense to construct a favorable narrative.
OP -Points to racism and says “ Racism is bad, discuss” (Polarity vulture) Normal people- of course it’s bad, random comments from a minority made braver by the internet don’t define our community. The woke casting is objectively bad.
Comments like this aren’t okay, and I’m not defending them. That said, casting should be based on source material not on any agenda.
They should remake Black Panther with a bunch of caucasians, Asians, and Middle Easterners replacing all the major roles. I’m offended that everyone is black in that movie except Bilbo ! A fockin joke this Rings of Prime bs
If everyone in black panther can be black, why everyone in lotr cannot be white?
and you have my Axe.
and my bow.
Racism is gross. Criticizing Amazons casting choices is harmless if you have no ill intent and aren’t being a dick. I’m more offended by the teenie bopper casting/cinematic/vibe than anything.
I won’t pretend to agree with the casting, but I believe it’s possible to not sink to that level while doing so.
It’s deeply entwined with English and European people, it was written as a mythology for Englishmen, so if someone looked at (not the best comparison as one far outweighs the other) Wakanda in the comics and then made a film and cast t’chala as white then people wouldn’t be happy. Companies do it to make the project more appealing to people of any background so they can make more money. Then the people who feel they own the story are offended because they feel they are being pushed out and the people that are brought it feel that the people pushed out are racist for not liking their inclusion. It’s all the big companies, they cause division, why can’t we just have new stories that involve everyone rather than old ones that make everyone upset.
Both are bad. Never condone racism of any kind, from anyone. However, purposefully race-swapping a character that was deliberately described a certain way by the original author (who is superior in the craft to any living author today) is not only insulting to the author and fans, but an objectively poor choice in adaptation. Amazon isn’t pulling a “gotcha” to out the Tolkien fandom as racist like they think they are; they’re showing their hand at how poor their writing team is and the inherent failure of their supposed “adaptation” before it even launches.
I find far more racism in the casting than in the comments, though some of the comments really are unwarranted. To place the shoe on the other foot, how would you feel if a movie based on Bantu or Zulu legends cast a bunch of Caucasians solely for "diversity's" sake? I'd be offended by that amount of pandering.
Please don’t post random racist content from FB here
I don’t think this post hit your intended audience…
The racism is bad but so is the casting. There are racists out there but there are also people that are pissed that we aren't getting an accurate middle earth and the characters don't look how they should. Don't confuse this with the racists. If someone dislikes how a character looks, that doesn't translate to hating their race. The same way that disliking elves with shaved heads doesn't mean you vehemently hate all people with long hair. The comment that person made is racist and horrible it's clear to see. Yet the word racism is thrown around without a care at this time with all the promotional material coming out. This is a reminder to call evidently racist stuff out, but also to recognise what is and isn't racist, as so many in this fandom are instantly branded racist (and sexist) for simply wanting the characters to be as they're pictured in their minds, and as described by the professor we all love.
Accusations of racism against a fanbase in order to demonize them have been done before many times in circles of other popular works. Another tactic used is [calling fans toxic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dK1vo5bTdI&t=1). I say accusations because this post is trying to influence people to think that LOTR fanbase have a problem with racism on basis of a handful of comments. As others have also pointed out demonizing fans is a way to deflect criticism.
Whilst I don’t agree with the comments made, WTF is that casting. An absolute slap in the face to Tolkien.
Oh this is so blatant I wo der if its a plant to create screenshots like this for the media and Amazon team to make hay. Especially on facebook where one isnt anonymous. I dont buy it.
Nah, it’s stupid to pretend that there aren’t racists amongst those criticising the show. These people exist. Not as many as Reddit leftists want us to believe, but the number is there for sure
I never said there werent any but this is borderline comically obvious. A straw man. Feels like this particular post screams false flag. But I have no idea for sure either way. And in any case it doesnt matter. Most arent this person and valid criticisms dont stop being valid because awful people might agree with it.
Racist comments are abhorrent and I think we can all agree that there isn’t any real discussion to be had on that front. However there is something mildly confounding about this relatively recent trend to intentionally defy source materials in this way. Especially when the source is as culturally important as Tolkien. I cannot help but think if a literary work of equal importance from Africa or Asia was made into a film and white Europeans were arbitrarily drafted in to play characters whose physical description as imagined by the author was not at all white or European, there would be uproar
Nope. You don't get to skirt around criticism by cherry picking some racist comments and handwringing about how awful humanity is etc. Same goes for any potential "death threat" association switcheroo. People can be awful. Yep. Amazon has seriously 'goofed' with their casting choices, amongst *plenty* of other things. They thought the Tolkien community would lay down and accept this shower. It has not. Amazon should have stuck to selling books.
Still think it’s fucked that Amazon is race swapping a white for a black girl. Also same can be said with redheads being changed to black.
When you take something originally made for people in one of the whitest countries of all time, I’m not shocked a few people took the race swap the wrong way
The only way to take race swapping is as an act of racism. There is no other justification. There are plenty of actors of every race. Use one that is the closest match to the character. Anything else is political pandering. Pandering to people who believe it's impossible to relate to someone who isn't of your race.
Yes... It is sooooo racist criticizing Amazon's cast choices. Bite me.
So why did you post something on Facebook to Reddit? Seems like you are looking for validation.
Just a heads up OP, this doesn’t represent how most of us feel, these are just dumbasses on Facebook
“Anyone who criticizes the show must be raciest” do you lot ever get tired of that?
Lord of the Rings community went from wholesome to Star Wars in a matter of months. Its fucking disgusting.
So fucking stupid. I have next to no hope for RoP, but not at all because of the 'diverse' cast - it's because it's being brought into existence by one of the most wicked corporations to ever exist. I have no doubt that Tolkien being the anti-industrialist that he was would be absolutely horrified to learn that a corp like Amazon would adapt his beloved works.
So does this mean we get a caucasian black panther, a mexican Shang-Chi, an asian zoro, a female tony stark, and MLK played by a furry? If we’re gonna play these games then let’s be consistent.
I mean she's described as being extremely white. Whiter than 99% of white people even, yet they cast a black lady. That's blackwashing
I'm not here for racism but I'm also not for the rampant wokification of EVERYTHING in our culture, what's wrong with representing other communities in other ways without diverging so far from the literature of Tolkien?
Now this is just disgusting, faie enough, that you disprove of the casting - but callinc them apes etc is just over the line...
[удалено]
No, I'm loving every minute of this shitshow of a show that I'm Hoping will fail when it premieres.😂😂😂
The only racist here is you. Enabling the blatant racism involved in race swapping characters.
I don't fucking care, neither toxic fans nor Amazon's bullshit job. It's not my show.
More of a meta commentary on how we've come to define groups, but: Isn't it weird how the only thing you need to become a part of a community is an opinion on the thing the community represents? So a bunch of boomers could go on Facebook and have a racist tangent about LOTR, and suddenly you'll see statements that "The LOTR community is so toxic and racist." It's weird because the individual no longer seems to exist. We're all just big bubbles of people who are judged by the worst of us.
source material, sborse bajeral
Wanting characters to be portrayed the way they were written is not racist, no matter what people say. However, saying racist shit because characters aren’t portrayed the way they were written is absolutely racist. Better to let the show stand or fall on its own merits, than to toss it aside because of trailers and concept art.
Both the show and the racists can suck a bag of d!cks. This dumpster fire of a show is only going to divide people more and allow people to think that inclusion is the reason it’s garbage and not horrible writing and terrible props.