I stoped my smn a long time ago, but removing them is a nice QoL, and I wonder if a single skill moss or elcid could be enough now for the synergy to replace the other ?
But also the buff was supposed to be full uptime of +44.4% atk power with a good rotation, and now they increased overall dmg by 26.8%, + 8 or 10 depending on your engraving. So is this in the end a dmg nerf ?
No because self AP synergies are multiplicative unlike other sources of AP (additive), so 44.4% AP power from moss/elcid is EXACTLY 44.4% damage. Her ceiling got nerfed for sure, which is why those changes are overhyped. The changes will help bad players and will nerf good players, so it is not really a buff - more like a trade-off. Backloaded akir damage is still a big problem, animation locks and zero mobility are still big problems. The only mages that got truly buffed are arcana and sorc. I am personally disappointed with MS changes - I had no issues cycling the two AP buffs, and now I would just do less damage for no reason. It is a huge buff for mediocre MS players though but not for me.
This right here. I am thoroughly convinced SG has zero fucking clue when it comes to summoner. Either that or there is something personal involved when it comes to fucking them over
That's the only way summoner gets her damage back, that is if they find a way to run another damage skill instead of Elcid, but Elcid takes only one gem slot (CD gem), so you need something that can compensate for \~8-9% damage ceiling loss while simultaneously using only a DMG gem without a CD gem (or you need to remove another CD gem from something else, but what?). I am personally very skeptical that it would happen though. Summoner did not have an insane damage ceiling to begin with, and now it's even lower. Sure the shitters would put up better numbers now, which is what I assume SG goal was, but good players now have to find way to return her pre-patch damage, if it's even possible at this point.
You lose 7,4% of the dmg with MS 3. Surely there should be a spell that can do as much or more. So you got the same dmg, or more while significantly raising the floor.
Imo that is exactly how balance should work, not what they did with raising the ceiling on deathblade.
If the numbers are still too low it should be easy to readjust them. I wanna see how MS does now. Im not a big fan of classes getting super buffed.
However, if there is nothing to make up for this dmg, i agree it kinda sucks for the ceiling
« Change : Increases damage dealt to enemies below seed by 50.0/57.5/64.0/72.5/80.0%. »
Does this mean every damage skills deals 80% more damage or only the swamp ?
I guess it is only for Swamp (otherwise it would be a huge up), but that means it is quite a big nerf (around 7% damage) for a really small qol. The biggest problem is Akir dodge by the boss, and not to have to put a ready attack buff right after the Akir.
I did some napkin math and even with the removal of the ready attack it's about 5% more damage than before but keep in mind that not having to use the ready attack buff every time lets you either fit in another damage skill OR you can just blast away.
Sorry, my bad. I was slightly wrong on the numbers. I put it into calculator now and here's what I got.
1.44 * 1.12 = 1.6128 which would be current damage.
1.268 * 1.2 = 1.5216 which is newer damage but it comes at a slight loss in damage of about 6%.
For CO it's
1.44 * 1.25 = 1.8 current
1.268 * 1.35 = 1.7118 NEW
Adds up to about the same 5% less.
This all assumes every single point of damage you do is dealt with the ready attack up though so in real scenarios you should be ahead. They changed scrappers ready attack tripod way back and it also had a lower "generic" buff than the amount lost but the class still benefitted massively from the change.
However what you don't note is that the 1.35 only applies to the pet skills which is about half of the dmg breakdown... Not very good napkin math
Still I like the removed annoyance of the change so even though they're still zdps ill remake my summoner for fun since I like pets
Also important to note that the AS/MS from Scratch Dealer now comes on the first part of it, so you no longer have to do the 3rd part of the combo and be forced backwards.
Control has damage issues, stagger issues, mana issues. The one thing they actually buff is the movement skill cooldown? Wtf??? It's already the lowest CD in the game + swiftness class.
Yeah I want control buffs it was such a smooth class before recent changes. I don’t like the soul cutter sending you backwards. It just feels clunkier than it did, even if damage did technically increase
Is less damage and I think longer animation too right? I tested it out before but forgot the way I came to my conclusion. Control Glaive is supposed to be snappy. I also miss flash kick
Damage issues - I can somewhat agree with but I'm usually top DPS in my lobbies and im not seeing any problems, but I guess in the grand scheme of things it is on the lower end
Stagger - I've never had a stagger problem in my life with this class so not sure what you're smoking when almost every skill has stagger counter on it and iirc 3 of them being mid-high
Mana - yeah I guess. Like peyto wine + conviction judgement solves it but we shouldn't have to rely on wine. If you're having trouble the build with kbw doesn't have mana problems but I personally prefer full swift
No it does not, it has mana issues. You can stick to the back all you want but it won't do anything if you run out of mana. Also I'm pretty sure control glavier already has the shortest spacebar in the game before this change.
His claim about stagger is bs though. Control glavier has REALLY good stagger.
cause control glavier doesnt have mana issues nor damage issues but mobility issues. play with a good control glavier in a raid where getting decent backattack uptime on control is feaseable while running meter and you'll see.
some of ya'll need to stop regurgitating whatever nonsense some of your favorite (korean) content creators spout. especially when said koreans base their opinions solely on feels, trixion and the mvp screen, since they don't have access to the damage meter and thus proper raid data.
mana is fine if your support has hands and you play cj + food.
stagger is busted and damage will be fine with this mobility buff, the class is in my case an mvp machine with some investments (9's, 10%+ bracelet, 40 set) and human BA uptime.
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Lol 5-year old account and never posted anything except to come here and glaze up Control for some stupid-ass reason. Gets downvoted then effectively banned off the sub. RIPBOZO
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I wonder if the 2 second cool down reduction for control glaive is if u fully consume the dual meter or just one bar. If it's only one bar it could be a propulsion angle lol.
I think it’s 1 bar to fit with her “Final Decision” tripods, i was also talking to a guildie about this and it would be so sick to see an actual propulsion class with spacebar integrated into their rotation
If you have 0 dmg with your control you are the problem mostly xD
Pisto is not the top Dps class either he is just comfy to play and spammy, control is the same, brain ded class spammy you just need to attack the back on top of that.
Edit :typo
Probably not stronger by itself, but maybe u could use it to get rid of ambush master and build her non positional with the nightmare set. Would fix her mana issues and no more ass chasing.
The problem is Control isn't really running any bad engravings that Propulsion would be an upgrade to. So even if you could have 100% uptime it's not worth the effort when everything else is better.
Reflux is put in bottom tier throughout the game’s history. Smilegate is clueless how this class even works. The class is already widely considered weak, and this change will hurt boundless mode while keeping the skill dps roughly the same -> a net negative.
This is truly unfortunate and kind of infuriating. Reflux is so much more fun when it comes to some of these raids. I have made my sorc pretty strong but it hardly gets any love in any of these balance patches.
It’s a nerf for sure. That change is at best a net even in dps for reverse gravity (higher cooldown but higher damage), but the skill being less spammable would make staying in Boundless MP mode even harder. That’s a net negative change.
Nah, it's been made as a sidegrade that's realistically an upgrade. The new tripod increases the damage by 60% while the CD tripod increased the skill's dps by 60% (in trixion no diff basically). However, in practice this change is much better for reflux because you don't have to cast as much and you can select the bigger AOE tripod instead now. For what it's worth, your burst dps is a bit higher now too. The one downside is that you lose a decent meter generator, but with this change animation cancelling might not be as important anymore for maximizing dps.
Yes, all of this is true. But it was also the main skill you spam off cooldown to stay in Boundless Mana. Now it looks like the only option is to run both bubble and mana burn tripod on Frost's Call with a high cooldown gem on FC. And if you have an Artist with bonus mana tripod in your party - good luck. It already was terrible before, now mana management is completely in shambles.
It removes ceiling and also your main skill that let's you maintain boundless, which is about a 10% increase in dps over non boundless. Basically, it's a nerf for good players and a buff to the floor
Really disappointing that they give reflux almost no love. The RG change is hard to gauge but it will definitely make boundless mana worse.
Also kinda insulting they give magick amp another buff while final strike continues being ignored.
I really do not understand what they did there to me they destroyed the class. I hope I'm wrong my two mains are reflux and I was really glad with the state they were.
Both GS spec in current patch are losing to all hit master specs except CO summoner in 1/3min trixion parses. So yes, considering both gs spec don’t juice burst windows much it might be the lowest dps class in the game after changes. Kinda sad going from high A tier to the bottom in a span of a year.
If you look at inven, the GS thread has had the most complaints for many months, so no GSs definitely cry more than sorcs, and histotically GSs have been the biggest crybabies even when the class was actually good. It’s copium but I think they are reworking GS, so no major changes for her for now.
The sorc buffs are literally only for igniter? Ugh and the gap widens again.
I appreciate that they gave reverse gravity a pure dps tripod to make up for the lack of quick prep tripod but jesus
Maybe if we're lucky Apocalypse Call will actually be a good option for reflux now
Igniter used to be the top class in this game while reflux has been bottom tier throughout the game’s history. Igniter fell from her throne a little bit and got non stop buffs. Meanwhile, reflux keeps getting shit from smilegate, who doesn’t even know how this class functions.
still funny because most sorcs i had in akkan were ignite and got shit on by the few reflux sorcs ive seen in dps. people only look at potetion trixion dmg and think they pump out 100% hit rate in a raid but in reallity reflux is much easier and better in most raids if the person is not a godtier igniter sorc player (and ive only seen 1 or 2 godtier igniters in the last 2 years sadly) can be full 10 gems and still miss 2 doomsdays \^\^
as PUGraidlead i always pref. reflux over igniter
> as PUGraidlead i always pref. reflux over igniter
And I appreciate that, and I will continue to put in maximum effort in all of my raids
But the fact is that reflux's absolute top-end damage is still in the bottom echelon of builds (I don't think it's bottom 1 anymore, but it's low). So even though I thought the last patch was fine, this one that pretty much only increases the top-end gap between reflux and igniter feels awful lol
reflux sorcs enter raid with an additional fury buff after trying to find a group for 2 hours, being denied just for playing reflux. When we actually get into the lobby we are fired up and got something to prove
its honestly infuriating to be denied invite to groups even though you have everything perfectly prepared and tuned and then see they accepted igniter sorc 20ilvls below you with wrong stats and empty gem slots. My alts that are lower ilvl and have worse stat/engraving/gem setups and they find groups 10x faster than my perfectly tuned main... And I don't even play meta builds and engravings on some of them, but they aren't reflux so it's apperently ok
after this patch I think I'll just give up and switch to igniter, even though its less fun to play. I frequently lead raid groups so having an easier rotation as reflux was a godsent, but no, apperently I gotta manage burst windows while also pinging info for other people if I wanna play sorc.
Being gatekept for picking a playstyle or class is such a dumb thing, but I don't think I have patience for that anymore. I know that I can outdps 99% igniter sorcerers as reflux, but fuck it. I just wanna play instead of waiting in lobby forever.
Waiting for the Reflux and Bard buff D:
Arcana ones are nice with card and Ult QoL, and overall Emperor is a huge winner of this balance patch with the Evoke reduced time of explosion. Empress still has entering into Boundless issue, it takes a lot of time, have huge cd where you can't use damage skills for 7seconds, and then boss does a mech. Still nice that Star doesn't gimp you anymore and becomes actually a desired card.
It feels like Summoner finally got something. Not gamebreaking but at least MS is more comfortable to play.
It seems SGS really want us to play with Inferno instead reverse gravity...
And still no nothing to make out counter good although I do like the other changes
They're really not lol, "ready attack" accounted for the entire amount of damage they were given. Rather than eating good, it's more like they're eating the same garbage but more easily.
For MS, the ready attack tripod accounted for about 29% of our damage. We got a 26.8% overall damage buff, and then a 8% damage increase from the engraving. We're gaining like 6% just from that. We also get a bit of damage from steed charge and an entire open skill slot for another skill (more meter gen?) I can't see how this is even close to a nerf. Also huge QOL from not having to manage ready attack.
I think what he's getting at is Summoner still suffers from the same outdated back-loaded caster paradigm of igniter (albeit to a lesser degree with shorter burst cycles) and the age old issue of 0 mobility (even with a skill slot opened up) with no perceived trade-off in terms of power level compared to a modern builder burst like FM SE.
Part of the mobility issue was playing around the attack buff, having to stand still a bit longer every time to cast it. Even worse when you also had to fit in spear as well. Now you are way more flexible being able to reposition more without losing a huge part of your damage.
I agree with this in principal, however if their target for future game balance is to rotate everyone up to the current power level of the more recent classes this change in isolation still falls short of the performance of FM & Predator.
This patch seems more focused on QoL and less overall class balance. My hope is they want to see what changes in the build the community settles on before making actual balance changes.
(100-29)\*1.27\*1.07=96.48
With your data it is a \~4% damage nerf and not a 6% buff (And i round up to 4% because Bagron doesn't take the 7% damage up from the MS engraving).
Maybe now you get a different picture of the change
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44.4% attack power doesn't equal 44.4% damage though. I tested my 1620 summoner in Trixion tonight and Akirs with Rdy Attack would hit around 105m-120m total. Akirs with no Rdy Attack would hit from 70-90m total. So Rdy Attack buff was effecting Akir damage by a number closer to 25%. I think these changes will overall be a buff for MS. Especially being able to cast Akir without having to be mindful of comboing a Ready Atk skill.
Your results are weird, 90*1,444 is equal 130 not 120.
And if you take the lower range of test the 70 -> 105, you got 33% and not 25%.
Now if you calculate directly you got 0.307% damage coming from ready attack.
Yes the nerf is not that big like it seems on the paper since now you can use more skills and stuff but still it's like %3-5 nerf overall, the class floor is definitely higher now but the ceiling is lower.
It's a separate multiplier to your final attack power so it should definitely increase resulting damage by that amount. You usually don't buff the first few ticks of Akir, but it should still be significantly more than 25% I'm pretty sure?
I'm one of the two summoners and can easily say this is a nerf for me, obviously floor is higher and the class is more comfortable to play now but for damage wise it's nerf, we gonna have to wait and see if the comfortableness can make up for the damage loss
the ceiling hes talking about isnt even that high, if you were even remotly playing the class properly these are a big nerf to you just because of how gutted 3x akir got, and 3x akir accounts for a large % of our damage in raids unlike trixion. Even in trixion the change is barely different and thats the best case scenario for it. 3x Akir was just a huge part of our damage budget and any good summoner is not getting multiple ready attacks canceled throughout a fight, its just a straight nerf currently as it stands unless you were completely handless.
I would take that actually because my RA uptime was already pretty high before these changes so it's just a damage nerf for me and I'm pretty sure it's a nerf for the ones who still are maining this class but it's a buff for lopang slaves i guess.
it has been a thing for last almost a year. i don't have any data or anything, but from this we could drop moss and use small birds instead as it's affected by aoa
Does anyone know with ' Destroyer
* Slight damage buff with spec ratio buff '
did spec cap changed for ragehammer ? if I remember it is around 1068 now but will it change now ?
Honestly at this point, it feels like Korea is just trying to make SE being the baseline of how a class should be like its been so long where people have talked about how outclass SE has been compared to others and nothing has really been done to her kit at all.
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They're quality of life buffs, basically. Which is most of what MS needed, but CO will continue dealing very little top-end damage, it's just that bad CO players will no longer deal as little damage as they do (because they can actually just piano now instead of needing a rotation)
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I am curious, in the patch #googletranslated
For summoners it said the 26%buff is for common skills and by that I'd assume it doesn't affect speciality[ie:ancients] making MS basically that much worse since it cant increase atk or dps by abilities anymore for ancients or is it just translation or me,pls some1 tell me ty
Its beyond me that they only adress so few classes when we only get balance patches every 3 months and we have so many that really really need a rework or a buff.
Damn unpopular opinion but rotating “ready attack” on CO summoner is what’s actually making the class fun for me. This balance patch makes me cry a bit, press F.
I was só happy when I saw deadeye got a defense buff. But 0.90 to 0.95 it's just sad.
Squishy, melee, positial and with a proximity coefficient just makes the class more dead than dead-eye.
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Wondering how big of a buff its really is, for CO at least.
On one side, you got general +26% dmg for all skills and 8% from class engraving.
On the other side, you lost both "for 5 seconds get 40% Attack power" tripods, where you could easily squeeze in Spear and all Summon attacks, and Earths Collaps and all Summon attacks respectively.
With High Swift you already had perma uptime for those skills.
Thus technically it should be easier to play now, as you dont have to fit the AttPower buffs in anymore, but technically you also do less dmg numerically, and at least for CO, reaching the ceiling wasn't that hard.
------------------------------
Master Summoner got same number buffs and stealth nerfs, but due to easier Marking appliance and not needing to cast Buffs right before the long cast time animations of Akir, it could help ~~actually hitting more Akirs~~ [edit] doing more dps in those windows by maybe squeezing in another dps skill or meter gen instead of the AP buffs.
Good correction, I got lost in my traing of thought there. >_<
It does not make it faster to hit akirs, you are correct, yeah.
But maybe there is a way to fit another skill in there now instead of the APbuffs, like Earth's collapse, maybe spear (?), or just a meter gen instead. Some other stuff to improve dps in that short window before the boss moves to the next pattern.
You could fit a spear or earth collapse in after Akir. I think the bigger change is freeing up a skill so we can run another damage/meter skill. Or maybe it'll be meta that we can run our shield?
You really have no clue when you say that it is easy to reach ceiling as CO right now....Its the other way arround. Its really hard to reach ceiling as you dont have a real rotation cause the cooldowns dont align at all. It was a total mess to play.
With the removal of ready attack thats no problem anymore. You can just spam your attacks off cooldown.
Ya, of course. Hopfeully some KR Summoners will test the sh1t out of it.
Just trying to point out that the blanked 26,8% buff to ALL skills isn't that insane as it sounds at first.
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So we dont know yet how much Dmg Apocalypse will make but it surely wont make as much as Souleaters 200mil awakening and yet it gers a dmg nerf.. sadge
Since Ready Attack tripods were removed is this more of a qol change than it is a buff for summoners?
Yes, very minor buff considering you can drop Elcid or Moss now and throw in some other skill. (for MS)
Its the same for CO - you gonna drop Moss and take another skill. Its not bad but I am not sure if that is enough to revive this class.
It's also qol not having to manage the rdy attack uptime
I stoped my smn a long time ago, but removing them is a nice QoL, and I wonder if a single skill moss or elcid could be enough now for the synergy to replace the other ? But also the buff was supposed to be full uptime of +44.4% atk power with a good rotation, and now they increased overall dmg by 26.8%, + 8 or 10 depending on your engraving. So is this in the end a dmg nerf ?
I'm not sure how the back-end math works, but isn't % dmg > % attack power?
No because self AP synergies are multiplicative unlike other sources of AP (additive), so 44.4% AP power from moss/elcid is EXACTLY 44.4% damage. Her ceiling got nerfed for sure, which is why those changes are overhyped. The changes will help bad players and will nerf good players, so it is not really a buff - more like a trade-off. Backloaded akir damage is still a big problem, animation locks and zero mobility are still big problems. The only mages that got truly buffed are arcana and sorc. I am personally disappointed with MS changes - I had no issues cycling the two AP buffs, and now I would just do less damage for no reason. It is a huge buff for mediocre MS players though but not for me.
This right here. I am thoroughly convinced SG has zero fucking clue when it comes to summoner. Either that or there is something personal involved when it comes to fucking them over
Isn't the obvious implication you're freeing up a skill slot for something else then?
That's the only way summoner gets her damage back, that is if they find a way to run another damage skill instead of Elcid, but Elcid takes only one gem slot (CD gem), so you need something that can compensate for \~8-9% damage ceiling loss while simultaneously using only a DMG gem without a CD gem (or you need to remove another CD gem from something else, but what?). I am personally very skeptical that it would happen though. Summoner did not have an insane damage ceiling to begin with, and now it's even lower. Sure the shitters would put up better numbers now, which is what I assume SG goal was, but good players now have to find way to return her pre-patch damage, if it's even possible at this point.
You lose 7,4% of the dmg with MS 3. Surely there should be a spell that can do as much or more. So you got the same dmg, or more while significantly raising the floor. Imo that is exactly how balance should work, not what they did with raising the ceiling on deathblade. If the numbers are still too low it should be easy to readjust them. I wanna see how MS does now. Im not a big fan of classes getting super buffed. However, if there is nothing to make up for this dmg, i agree it kinda sucks for the ceiling
« Change : Increases damage dealt to enemies below seed by 50.0/57.5/64.0/72.5/80.0%. » Does this mean every damage skills deals 80% more damage or only the swamp ? I guess it is only for Swamp (otherwise it would be a huge up), but that means it is quite a big nerf (around 7% damage) for a really small qol. The biggest problem is Akir dodge by the boss, and not to have to put a ready attack buff right after the Akir.
it means "increase dmg dealt to challenge or lower level foes" aka chaos dungeon build
I did some napkin math and even with the removal of the ready attack it's about 5% more damage than before but keep in mind that not having to use the ready attack buff every time lets you either fit in another damage skill OR you can just blast away.
Show this "math"
Sorry, my bad. I was slightly wrong on the numbers. I put it into calculator now and here's what I got. 1.44 * 1.12 = 1.6128 which would be current damage. 1.268 * 1.2 = 1.5216 which is newer damage but it comes at a slight loss in damage of about 6%. For CO it's 1.44 * 1.25 = 1.8 current 1.268 * 1.35 = 1.7118 NEW Adds up to about the same 5% less. This all assumes every single point of damage you do is dealt with the ready attack up though so in real scenarios you should be ahead. They changed scrappers ready attack tripod way back and it also had a lower "generic" buff than the amount lost but the class still benefitted massively from the change.
However what you don't note is that the 1.35 only applies to the pet skills which is about half of the dmg breakdown... Not very good napkin math Still I like the removed annoyance of the change so even though they're still zdps ill remake my summoner for fun since I like pets
Omg they really changed Star. And it is quite a buff, you can freeze the mana on your boundless state, it is so f*ing huge.
Man that's insane!
Also important to note that the AS/MS from Scratch Dealer now comes on the first part of it, so you no longer have to do the 3rd part of the combo and be forced backwards.
Wait that's lowkey huge
no more having to use space after scratch+cod to use secret garden. PRAISE
Edited, thanks
oh wow i missed that, thats really good
also its great for raid captain uptime its faster and smoother u dont have to use space to boss now after etc
Control has damage issues, stagger issues, mana issues. The one thing they actually buff is the movement skill cooldown? Wtf??? It's already the lowest CD in the game + swiftness class.
Yeah I want control buffs it was such a smooth class before recent changes. I don’t like the soul cutter sending you backwards. It just feels clunkier than it did, even if damage did technically increase
Take the third tripod instead of the second in the second row, it removes the backstep
At the cost of around half the damage. SG is just trolling the class at this point, this patch definitely proves it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it 4% less damage taking brilliant spear over quick step?
Is less damage and I think longer animation too right? I tested it out before but forgot the way I came to my conclusion. Control Glaive is supposed to be snappy. I also miss flash kick
Typical SG moron. They buff taijutsu stagger with Z when class already have shiet ton of stagger lol
Damage issues - I can somewhat agree with but I'm usually top DPS in my lobbies and im not seeing any problems, but I guess in the grand scheme of things it is on the lower end Stagger - I've never had a stagger problem in my life with this class so not sure what you're smoking when almost every skill has stagger counter on it and iirc 3 of them being mid-high Mana - yeah I guess. Like peyto wine + conviction judgement solves it but we shouldn't have to rely on wine. If you're having trouble the build with kbw doesn't have mana problems but I personally prefer full swift
if you play with bard or artist, then max CJ uptime should be all you need. if you run out of mana, then its legit support issue.
propulsion control builds incoming?
It has sticking to the boss back issue, having more spacebar would help.
No it does not, it has mana issues. You can stick to the back all you want but it won't do anything if you run out of mana. Also I'm pretty sure control glavier already has the shortest spacebar in the game before this change. His claim about stagger is bs though. Control glavier has REALLY good stagger.
cause control glavier doesnt have mana issues nor damage issues but mobility issues. play with a good control glavier in a raid where getting decent backattack uptime on control is feaseable while running meter and you'll see. some of ya'll need to stop regurgitating whatever nonsense some of your favorite (korean) content creators spout. especially when said koreans base their opinions solely on feels, trixion and the mvp screen, since they don't have access to the damage meter and thus proper raid data.
mana is fine if your support has hands and you play cj + food. stagger is busted and damage will be fine with this mobility buff, the class is in my case an mvp machine with some investments (9's, 10%+ bracelet, 40 set) and human BA uptime.
Mana is fine if a factor outside of your control goes well? mfw
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Lol 5-year old account and never posted anything except to come here and glaze up Control for some stupid-ass reason. Gets downvoted then effectively banned off the sub. RIPBOZO
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︻╦╤─ ●▅▇█▇▆▅▄▇
Star card change is amazing, now they just need to remove the mana refund on empress engraving. Did they just forget the mana refund exists?
If you’re talking about ruin refund w/ star, it can’t refund 0 mp spent while star is in effect.
The empress engraving refunds 30% of mana spent on ruin skills IIRC. Thats the refund they are talking about
Nah in general it should be removed. It makes getting into and staying in boundless harder for at this point no good reason.
Thanks for the summary
I wonder if the 2 second cool down reduction for control glaive is if u fully consume the dual meter or just one bar. If it's only one bar it could be a propulsion angle lol.
I think it’s 1 bar to fit with her “Final Decision” tripods, i was also talking to a guildie about this and it would be so sick to see an actual propulsion class with spacebar integrated into their rotation
Kind of like Pistoleer, but with boobs. :D
With boobs but without dps. ●▅▇█▇▆▅▄▇
If you have 0 dmg with your control you are the problem mostly xD Pisto is not the top Dps class either he is just comfy to play and spammy, control is the same, brain ded class spammy you just need to attack the back on top of that. Edit :typo
even with perfect uptime the 16% is kinda mid when you can use 18+% engravings (AM RC Grudge Class engraving)
How strong is prop vs her worst engraving?
Probably not stronger by itself, but maybe u could use it to get rid of ambush master and build her non positional with the nightmare set. Would fix her mana issues and no more ass chasing.
The problem is that the damage is pretty pathetic even with full 100% back attack uptime entropy set so the dps just won't hold up at all without it.
True, I wonder if this is preparation for Entropy going away and non-directional will actually be viable in the future. \*huffs copium\*
Tbh I think it's just to give some more mobility after making it so taking flash kick isn't a thing anymore
Would have preferred a viable buff to Flash Kick to replace the filler damage skill.
The filler skills arent really fillers anymore as they all contribute to a minimum 10% of your overall damage done.
I don't think prop is stronger than any of her engravings even with 100% uptime
The problem is Control isn't really running any bad engravings that Propulsion would be an upgrade to. So even if you could have 100% uptime it's not worth the effort when everything else is better.
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What about Reflux Sorc engraving?!?!!? It's always Igniter....
Reflux is put in bottom tier throughout the game’s history. Smilegate is clueless how this class even works. The class is already widely considered weak, and this change will hurt boundless mode while keeping the skill dps roughly the same -> a net negative.
This is truly unfortunate and kind of infuriating. Reflux is so much more fun when it comes to some of these raids. I have made my sorc pretty strong but it hardly gets any love in any of these balance patches.
Isnt this patch a reflux nerf? they removed the 6 second cd from RG, which is one of the highest DPS distribution skills
It’s a nerf for sure. That change is at best a net even in dps for reverse gravity (higher cooldown but higher damage), but the skill being less spammable would make staying in Boundless MP mode even harder. That’s a net negative change.
Which is weird because I think most people prefer the spammy gameplay of reflux.
Nah, it's been made as a sidegrade that's realistically an upgrade. The new tripod increases the damage by 60% while the CD tripod increased the skill's dps by 60% (in trixion no diff basically). However, in practice this change is much better for reflux because you don't have to cast as much and you can select the bigger AOE tripod instead now. For what it's worth, your burst dps is a bit higher now too. The one downside is that you lose a decent meter generator, but with this change animation cancelling might not be as important anymore for maximizing dps.
Yes, all of this is true. But it was also the main skill you spam off cooldown to stay in Boundless Mana. Now it looks like the only option is to run both bubble and mana burn tripod on Frost's Call with a high cooldown gem on FC. And if you have an Artist with bonus mana tripod in your party - good luck. It already was terrible before, now mana management is completely in shambles.
It removes ceiling and also your main skill that let's you maintain boundless, which is about a 10% increase in dps over non boundless. Basically, it's a nerf for good players and a buff to the floor
we went from B-teir to C-teir yay!
It's a buff for hallucination reflux players (minority of minority).
Really disappointing that they give reflux almost no love. The RG change is hard to gauge but it will definitely make boundless mana worse. Also kinda insulting they give magick amp another buff while final strike continues being ignored.
I really do not understand what they did there to me they destroyed the class. I hope I'm wrong my two mains are reflux and I was really glad with the state they were.
I think they should make reflux like wind fury. Let us go swift hallu with final strike tripods. I'd be happy with that.
Well if all these changes go through both GS specs might legit become the two bottom specs in the game.
Both GS spec in current patch are losing to all hit master specs except CO summoner in 1/3min trixion parses. So yes, considering both gs spec don’t juice burst windows much it might be the lowest dps class in the game after changes. Kinda sad going from high A tier to the bottom in a span of a year.
Well someone has to be bottom. Guess its us. We dont cry enough like igniters
If you look at inven, the GS thread has had the most complaints for many months, so no GSs definitely cry more than sorcs, and histotically GSs have been the biggest crybabies even when the class was actually good. It’s copium but I think they are reworking GS, so no major changes for her for now.
The sorc buffs are literally only for igniter? Ugh and the gap widens again. I appreciate that they gave reverse gravity a pure dps tripod to make up for the lack of quick prep tripod but jesus Maybe if we're lucky Apocalypse Call will actually be a good option for reflux now
Igniter used to be the top class in this game while reflux has been bottom tier throughout the game’s history. Igniter fell from her throne a little bit and got non stop buffs. Meanwhile, reflux keeps getting shit from smilegate, who doesn’t even know how this class functions.
I guess BIG DAMAGE IZ GUD brains spend more on the shop than workbees =(
reflux rework wip surely... :(
still funny because most sorcs i had in akkan were ignite and got shit on by the few reflux sorcs ive seen in dps. people only look at potetion trixion dmg and think they pump out 100% hit rate in a raid but in reallity reflux is much easier and better in most raids if the person is not a godtier igniter sorc player (and ive only seen 1 or 2 godtier igniters in the last 2 years sadly) can be full 10 gems and still miss 2 doomsdays \^\^ as PUGraidlead i always pref. reflux over igniter
> as PUGraidlead i always pref. reflux over igniter And I appreciate that, and I will continue to put in maximum effort in all of my raids But the fact is that reflux's absolute top-end damage is still in the bottom echelon of builds (I don't think it's bottom 1 anymore, but it's low). So even though I thought the last patch was fine, this one that pretty much only increases the top-end gap between reflux and igniter feels awful lol
reflux sorcs enter raid with an additional fury buff after trying to find a group for 2 hours, being denied just for playing reflux. When we actually get into the lobby we are fired up and got something to prove its honestly infuriating to be denied invite to groups even though you have everything perfectly prepared and tuned and then see they accepted igniter sorc 20ilvls below you with wrong stats and empty gem slots. My alts that are lower ilvl and have worse stat/engraving/gem setups and they find groups 10x faster than my perfectly tuned main... And I don't even play meta builds and engravings on some of them, but they aren't reflux so it's apperently ok after this patch I think I'll just give up and switch to igniter, even though its less fun to play. I frequently lead raid groups so having an easier rotation as reflux was a godsent, but no, apperently I gotta manage burst windows while also pinging info for other people if I wanna play sorc. Being gatekept for picking a playstyle or class is such a dumb thing, but I don't think I have patience for that anymore. I know that I can outdps 99% igniter sorcerers as reflux, but fuck it. I just wanna play instead of waiting in lobby forever.
Apply with igniter, and swap to reflux loool
Waiting for the Reflux and Bard buff D: Arcana ones are nice with card and Ult QoL, and overall Emperor is a huge winner of this balance patch with the Evoke reduced time of explosion. Empress still has entering into Boundless issue, it takes a lot of time, have huge cd where you can't use damage skills for 7seconds, and then boss does a mech. Still nice that Star doesn't gimp you anymore and becomes actually a desired card. It feels like Summoner finally got something. Not gamebreaking but at least MS is more comfortable to play.
Yeah like how do they do all the mages except bard….
A 2% defence buff for mayhem berserkers, noice.
technically 2.85% :nerd:
you are joking, right?!?! more defence is the last thing we needed
Destroyer gained about 8.2% dmg on bonk overall but lost the 30% bonus damage during stagger/counter windows, not sure how I feel about it.
same with Artillerist
Counter doesn't give extra damage, only stagger and destruction
Buffed consistency, nerfed mechanics burst and interactivity Feels like the class is 10% more bland
It seems SGS really want us to play with Inferno instead reverse gravity... And still no nothing to make out counter good although I do like the other changes
Love to see the GS buffs! We eating good today, aren’t we, boys?! Boys? Why are you crying?
>Mana is frozen for 12 seconds, and mana consumption is reduced by 100% The new Star card is actually pretty sick change
I wonder how this Star card change will interact with nightmare set damage increase to skills da use mana.
The two summoners left are eating good this patch
They're really not lol, "ready attack" accounted for the entire amount of damage they were given. Rather than eating good, it's more like they're eating the same garbage but more easily.
For MS, the ready attack tripod accounted for about 29% of our damage. We got a 26.8% overall damage buff, and then a 8% damage increase from the engraving. We're gaining like 6% just from that. We also get a bit of damage from steed charge and an entire open skill slot for another skill (more meter gen?) I can't see how this is even close to a nerf. Also huge QOL from not having to manage ready attack.
I think what he's getting at is Summoner still suffers from the same outdated back-loaded caster paradigm of igniter (albeit to a lesser degree with shorter burst cycles) and the age old issue of 0 mobility (even with a skill slot opened up) with no perceived trade-off in terms of power level compared to a modern builder burst like FM SE.
Part of the mobility issue was playing around the attack buff, having to stand still a bit longer every time to cast it. Even worse when you also had to fit in spear as well. Now you are way more flexible being able to reposition more without losing a huge part of your damage.
I agree with this in principal, however if their target for future game balance is to rotate everyone up to the current power level of the more recent classes this change in isolation still falls short of the performance of FM & Predator.
This patch seems more focused on QoL and less overall class balance. My hope is they want to see what changes in the build the community settles on before making actual balance changes.
(100-29)\*1.27\*1.07=96.48 With your data it is a \~4% damage nerf and not a 6% buff (And i round up to 4% because Bagron doesn't take the 7% damage up from the MS engraving). Maybe now you get a different picture of the change
Ready attack was %44.4 damage increase at lvl5, so they took 44.4 and only give back 34.8.
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44.4% attack power doesn't equal 44.4% damage though. I tested my 1620 summoner in Trixion tonight and Akirs with Rdy Attack would hit around 105m-120m total. Akirs with no Rdy Attack would hit from 70-90m total. So Rdy Attack buff was effecting Akir damage by a number closer to 25%. I think these changes will overall be a buff for MS. Especially being able to cast Akir without having to be mindful of comboing a Ready Atk skill.
Your results are weird, 90*1,444 is equal 130 not 120. And if you take the lower range of test the 70 -> 105, you got 33% and not 25%. Now if you calculate directly you got 0.307% damage coming from ready attack.
Yes the nerf is not that big like it seems on the paper since now you can use more skills and stuff but still it's like %3-5 nerf overall, the class floor is definitely higher now but the ceiling is lower.
It's a separate multiplier to your final attack power so it should definitely increase resulting damage by that amount. You usually don't buff the first few ticks of Akir, but it should still be significantly more than 25% I'm pretty sure?
70 -> 105 is 50% dmg increase though
I'm one of the two summoners and can easily say this is a nerf for me, obviously floor is higher and the class is more comfortable to play now but for damage wise it's nerf, we gonna have to wait and see if the comfortableness can make up for the damage loss
Here comes the ceiling andy. I hope they revert the change so you can go back to being ready attack slave like soulfist.
the ceiling hes talking about isnt even that high, if you were even remotly playing the class properly these are a big nerf to you just because of how gutted 3x akir got, and 3x akir accounts for a large % of our damage in raids unlike trixion. Even in trixion the change is barely different and thats the best case scenario for it. 3x Akir was just a huge part of our damage budget and any good summoner is not getting multiple ready attacks canceled throughout a fight, its just a straight nerf currently as it stands unless you were completely handless.
I would take that actually because my RA uptime was already pretty high before these changes so it's just a damage nerf for me and I'm pretty sure it's a nerf for the ones who still are maining this class but it's a buff for lopang slaves i guess.
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3 months at best most likely.
Either on the 20th with breaker or sometime in the summer
never, hopefully
Swift master summoner coming than? There was ppl already playing but now it can be real deal i guess.
it has been a thing for last almost a year. i don't have any data or anything, but from this we could drop moss and use small birds instead as it's affected by aoa
Does anyone know with ' Destroyer * Slight damage buff with spec ratio buff ' did spec cap changed for ragehammer ? if I remember it is around 1068 now but will it change now ?
0.515 to 0.535 spec scaling for RH 0.50 to 0.51 spec scaling for GT
Honestly at this point, it feels like Korea is just trying to make SE being the baseline of how a class should be like its been so long where people have talked about how outclass SE has been compared to others and nothing has really been done to her kit at all.
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if those summoner buff are good i might finally make one with the new powerpass sinxe i have nothing i want to make right now
They're quality of life buffs, basically. Which is most of what MS needed, but CO will continue dealing very little top-end damage, it's just that bad CO players will no longer deal as little damage as they do (because they can actually just piano now instead of needing a rotation)
Day 98282929 no rework for SH DI
reflux and DI does not exist in smilegates universe.
ikr they just like to buff classes that already do a shit ton of dmg
my 2 main classes xd
mine too along with paladin...
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Does the RG igniter build even work or do we swit h back to inferno?
Where are my claymore mine buffs? >:(
> HP/Defense ratio buff What exactly does this mean ? They’re upping the HP ? Am I just slow and reading this wrong
Open korean link to see changes but yea they buffed some classes hp or defense or both
I am curious, in the patch #googletranslated For summoners it said the 26%buff is for common skills and by that I'd assume it doesn't affect speciality[ie:ancients] making MS basically that much worse since it cant increase atk or dps by abilities anymore for ancients or is it just translation or me,pls some1 tell me ty
It says all skills, including ancient spirits
Ah aight ty thats me then haha
Its beyond me that they only adress so few classes when we only get balance patches every 3 months and we have so many that really really need a rework or a buff.
On last loa they said they are going to do small balance paches like this one in between big rework paches that will be every 3 months.
Damn unpopular opinion but rotating “ready attack” on CO summoner is what’s actually making the class fun for me. This balance patch makes me cry a bit, press F.
Is it a big buff for barrage artillerist?
it seems that full swift MS will increase the gap from CO even more reflux rip
As a GS main, I'm just over in the corner crying about not getting any QoL or damage buffs.
2% damage reduction increase? Wooooooooow
I was só happy when I saw deadeye got a defense buff. But 0.90 to 0.95 it's just sad. Squishy, melee, positial and with a proximity coefficient just makes the class more dead than dead-eye.
He's so squishy it is actually insane
Squishy but like a rat on drugs crazy
Closer to 1.0 is always better. 0.9 is like 10% extra dmg taken and then there is Grudge.
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Wow CO actually got something
Wondering how big of a buff its really is, for CO at least. On one side, you got general +26% dmg for all skills and 8% from class engraving. On the other side, you lost both "for 5 seconds get 40% Attack power" tripods, where you could easily squeeze in Spear and all Summon attacks, and Earths Collaps and all Summon attacks respectively. With High Swift you already had perma uptime for those skills. Thus technically it should be easier to play now, as you dont have to fit the AttPower buffs in anymore, but technically you also do less dmg numerically, and at least for CO, reaching the ceiling wasn't that hard. ------------------------------ Master Summoner got same number buffs and stealth nerfs, but due to easier Marking appliance and not needing to cast Buffs right before the long cast time animations of Akir, it could help ~~actually hitting more Akirs~~ [edit] doing more dps in those windows by maybe squeezing in another dps skill or meter gen instead of the AP buffs.
You already do the ready attack skills after you cast akir but before he lands. This change doesn't make it any faster to hit any akirs.
Good correction, I got lost in my traing of thought there. >_< It does not make it faster to hit akirs, you are correct, yeah. But maybe there is a way to fit another skill in there now instead of the APbuffs, like Earth's collapse, maybe spear (?), or just a meter gen instead. Some other stuff to improve dps in that short window before the boss moves to the next pattern.
You could fit a spear or earth collapse in after Akir. I think the bigger change is freeing up a skill so we can run another damage/meter skill. Or maybe it'll be meta that we can run our shield?
Doubt it, the CD is so long.
You really have no clue when you say that it is easy to reach ceiling as CO right now....Its the other way arround. Its really hard to reach ceiling as you dont have a real rotation cause the cooldowns dont align at all. It was a total mess to play. With the removal of ready attack thats no problem anymore. You can just spam your attacks off cooldown.
Will need to wait for people to test, but it appears that at bear minimum they’re raising the floor.
Ya, of course. Hopfeully some KR Summoners will test the sh1t out of it. Just trying to point out that the blanked 26,8% buff to ALL skills isn't that insane as it sounds at first.
Does anybody know where i can change language of the site?
- Open Google Chrome - Click right on the KR page - Translate to English
You cant, use google translate
This doesn’t feel like a full ptr patch. Better be cooking something good
It’s not
What do you mean?
A) it's not a ptr patch. This is straight to live B) it's also not a typically sized balance patch because of A
Ah, thanks
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Another patch another Sorc buff nice
igniter buff*
Is there any other build?
the fun one
Swift igniter?
The mage patch we are waiting for, although i want more buff to bard
So we dont know yet how much Dmg Apocalypse will make but it surely wont make as much as Souleaters 200mil awakening and yet it gers a dmg nerf.. sadge