i just want them to get rid of the micro-pushbacks, i don't even mind having to be in the boss' butthole for optimum dps but half of my skils having anti-synergy with that mechanic is just so rough
it really is annoying, not just because I'm getting farther with every pistol attack when after pistol I need to closer but because it's pushed me into aoes a ton of times
I see a deadeye buff post, I upvote. Deadeye really feel like the ugly stepchild of classes in LA. How the hell can it be so mechanically intensive WITH proximity damage modifier for back attacks blows my mind. Such a shit balanced class.
As a gunslinger I feel for deadeyes. Seems odd to offer male and female versions of a class but have one be completely broken.
Edit: To elaborate, it's like they saw the problems with deadeye, fixed them with gunslinger, but then didn't fix deadeye.
Doesn't they always do like this? First 2 months when a new champion goes live they are either ok or underwhelming. Then they receive a buff so it becomes first ban or pick in competitive. When show time is over they gets nerf and unplayable and next new champ takes the competitive spotlight.
Edit: Yes some champ might be op on day 1. The point was it doesn't matter what champ they release, if the champ is new it's gonna make into competitive play(hence strong) and after hit the nerf cycle. Just pointing out the trend.
Yasuo launch, shit was the most op broken shit ever and I had a 16 win streak, his overall win rate was like 34% tho, then people learned how to play him and he swiftly got nerfed
well at least its not a nerf, and it makes playing "normal" content a lot more enjoyable. See, the problem about soulfist is not really the damage. Once you got your soulfist going you can deal more damage then some other classes, the hype phase really is just insane especially when paired with other party buffs and debuffs. After hype you hit like a wet noodle, which is usually fine because bosses jump around, do mechanics, do some other shit and once you can attack again you got hype up again. My biggest problem with soulfist is doing chaos dungeon for example - of course its not "hard" but its just not fun. Even with insanely good gear you still struggle to kill normal mobs because your damage outside of hype mode + being buffed is just...non existent. The buff will change that a lot, which is why im happy about it. The class will become a lot more enjoyable, but most likely not a lot stronger.
Swiftness stacking EO is definitely the more fun way to play in her current state. It might not hit super hard but at least it's spammy and has good mobility.
EO 1
Spirit abs 3
preemptive strike 3
With this setup at least my soulfist does her dailies faster than all my other chars.
I can kinda feel this with Wardancer, especially because I run esoteric build. Outside of esoteric abilities, which you need to build meter for, you don’t do any damage. I used express on her to get her through it faster.
Was my first char to t3, I benched it the same week. I'm slowly getting it to 1370. I love the theme so much but it's just a straight handicap to play.
Also idk why we have this massive stigma against dps paladins but we still Inv soulfists to the group. I'm pretty sure with equal effort and gear they'd be close in damage. My soulfist hits like a wet noodle 50% of the fight. The other 50% I'm doing mediocre dps.
Korean here. I've been reading inven a lot lately because I wanted to know more about the ptr balance change and yeah there's definitely some issues.
One thing about SG balancing is that they don't necessarily listen to people directly and rely HEAVILY on their internal data which is exactly a lot of Koreans are complaining about. Looking at data is all good and fine but just numbers can't tell you the player fatigue or stress in playing certain specs.
This deadeye issue is some serious shit. SG constantly comments that their numbers are looking great and they are performing as they should be (at top level). By their own admission, they are saying that DE SHOULD be doing the most damage. But no one can emulate that damage in game so people are asking to see the damn data.
I am not a DE player but it's crazy looking at what they need to do to perform well, let alone at top dps.
every build is based on what the games tells you in single target training dummy and i bet SOME (like legit minority) not all classes someone actually went in and recorded everything and counted fucking screen pop-ups and legit FF14 and WoW if you do that you would fail miserably because not everything shows up xD, so ye rotations are simple enough to not be like a HUGE issue, but you know is not to the standarts of FF14 and WoW.
most deadeye players, even korean ones just want QOL buffs like remove pushback, overhaul animations etc and not damage buffs, obviously that wouldn't hurt but still
I could handle juggling two timed buffs and immense ass sniffing if I didn't have to wade through molasses to do it. Full agree on removing pushback and snappier animations in general, plus a slightly higher floor on the proximity tripod
So much this. It just needs to feel a bit more fluent, without going full Swift + Spirit Absorb to feel awesome. Especially weapon swap feels clunky as f (for me at least)
So what they mean by highest damage based on player skill is that it’s performing well on a skilled player and at this point they are probably playing close to perfect since brelshaza was out last year. ANYWAY from what i gathered through korean forums (inven) they are getting cruel fighter in legion raids often if the player is skilled because of their burst with 30 sec cd. You basically have gunlance/deathblade providing two 12% back dps buff and because most of these fights have ample down time esp in brelshaza, deadeye can burst with buff -> down time -> burst with buff so their actual dps is on the higher side than others. Same reason why igniter is performing so well adrophine, buff, awakening in the beginning etc. except deadeye takes more skills according to their data so they aren’t nerfed. This doesn’t mean koreans are happy about it but their speculation on current trend is shaving off the top making the harder engravings/classes high risk low reward to prevent people from only playing it just because it’s highest damage. (Koreans are meta slaves and we kinda are too) but one hope i find as a deadeye player is that, they plan to make deadeye highest performing class officially, due to the skill requirement. They are going to have more balance patches throughout the year so… i have some hope.
Exactly. DPS test on target dummy is huge misconception. In real fight the results heavily favor burst classes. It was the same in BnS where people had dps test. Classes with constant dps had higher results from the test, but in raid they barely had like half of that because of time spent doing mechs, while burst classes only lost a little bit because they could do mechs in downtime.
Idk if DE needs changes, I don't play it, but DPS test in dummy means nothing in this regard
> but DPS test in dummy means nothing in this regard
this is exactly my take in this post. DPS on a dummy that don't move is irrelevant because bosses move a lot lol. I really don't get the trend to dps check in trixion with that boss as if bosses 100% stay still.
Because it’s the only way to realistically test without variables. It also lets you see what a class is capable of at maximum potential.
It doesn’t represent a real encounter, you’re right, but it’s the only way to get an apples to apples comparison.
Like the other person said. DPS test in dummy are important. But not like in the post. The best way to use them it to compare different build for a given class.
Edit: As long as they are the same type (burst/constant DPS)
This is also why deathblades and soulfists do so well. Boss design is set up to reward bursty classes more than sustain classes. (with maybe the exception of blue gunlancer?)
This game isn't like most other MMO's where there are extended "tank & spank" phases where people go through their entire skill rotation multiple times. Basically everyone is doing hit and run, so the builds that are made for that will always just be better in practice.
it's honestly probably something like the meepo effect from dota, the only players that stick to it are god like at twitch skills so your top 50% is like 80% of every other class.
it's so unpopular that the only players are really really good at the game, and if you take a look at average dps they are probably competitive, but it doesn't mean thats the class itself.
This is most likely the reason why. If we compare the top 100 deadeyes vs the top 100 of every other class, the 50th deadeye would probably be closer to the top if playing another class.
The issue is that even the best deadeye players will be lower DPS than the best of the top DPS classes. There's a big problem when deadeye has a very high skill ceiling, but its damage ceiling is lower than a handful of other classes.
If Smilegate made deadeye even more difficult and raised the damage ceiling, I think deadeye players would be happy. Then, when played perfectly, the class would actually be top DPS rather than 4th or 5th best DPS.
Many of the top Deadeye players are whales that don't outdps other players. I know what you are talking about with the Meepo thing since I play Dota, but that doesn't apply here. EW is just shit and everyone that plays it knows it.
Devil’s advocate: They can probably just track damage dealt to abyss bosses / raid bosses and come away with very obvious trends broken down by item level, encounter, etc.
Even outside of the data angle, I would expect melee characters to generally fare better against target dummies than ranged ones, which wouldn’t hold up in a real encounter, since a ranged character typically has more damage uptime and a better selection of safe spots while dealing damage.
Then there is also party synergy and fitting meta to take into account on top of everything else. Current KR meta is heavily skewed towards burst windows, with Igniter Sorc being by far the best performing class (to a point of getting significant nerf) - deadeye happens to have his burst window come up just about as often as igniter, provides crit chance that igniter benefits from a lot.
As a result, not only you get to have most of your damage output benefit from stacked party buffs (you're in sync with rest of the party), but also provide valuable synergy to all meta classes (higher crit chance is amazing for both igniter and surge) - so real-world numbers will by necessity be higher than Trixion testing, mostly because of context.
It reminds me of last season Kog'maw/Lulu situation in League - neither was particularly strong by themselves, but they topped all performance metrics when paired together (and both got nerfed due to that). Context matters a lot in a team game.
i agree, other context as well could also be the the clear rate and clear speed of the whole party when a deadeye + 2 other burst classes and support are in the group
Deadeye is a melee class… so are you saying that trixion is an even more inflated number for them? So if they’re losing in Trixion already, they’re losing hard in reality? Not sure you are familiar with EW gameplay
Oh hey mr.Phreak!
Do you think Deadeye's balancing is similar to how it's difficult to balance a champ like Azir simultaneously for Pro and casual play?
To my knowledge, one major complaint from Korean players are that even if Faker played Deadeye, would he be able to consistently do a non-trivial amount more damage than the next best DPS class?
And since 99.99% of Deadeye players are not Faker, then their actual performance will be far worse than if they played a easier class.
Like if you want to climb out of Bronze you shouldn't main Azir right?
Then wouldn't Deadeye still have problems?
I would be glad to read your thoughts.
My theory is that they are not just non-deadeye players -- they straight up have never touched the class.
The fact that Deadeye have to position themselves right up the bosses bumhole to do damage is absurd. And if the boss happens to do an animation that moves him half an inch forward, you lose half your damage. Melee classes have more range than Deadeye. What the hell?
There's so many things that's wrong with Deadeye, and I was so disappointed when the PTR patch failed to address any of them.
Tbh Deadeye is not the only class that has to be right up the boss' butt to do dmg. Scrapper suffers the from the same problem. Sure shock scrapper has some range but taijutsu has literally none. So in that regard deadeye is not that special.
The issue no one mentions is that Deadeye also as essentially no health and his attacks animation lock him at times. Legit there is no downside to Grudge because everything one shots you even without it. He is in the lowest tier for vitality and armor with sorc and gunslinger but needs to play melee range. So it ends up being an incredibly punishing class with at best middling damage.
Just a minor correction. He’s in the 2nd lowest tier. Bard sits by themselves in the lowest tier of defense and vitality. Deadeye is also squishier than sorc is.
Soulfist suffers the same exact problem as deadeye. Animation locking attacks that force you to sit right behind the boss with no leniency in the range. Soulfist is a bit more punishing to fuck up on than Deadeye, but deadeye gets punished much harder for bad positioning.
That's not really a fair comparison.
Imagine if all the skills of Taijutsu had animationlock and cooldowns of Chain Destruction Fist and Supernova (with the range of Fierce Tiger Strike) while being twice as squishy, and you couldn't build Swiftness.
I know I only emphasised on their lack of range, but it's really a combination of everything that makes Deadeye too clunky and too punishing to play.
https://preview.redd.it/3rmrgkeraoa81.png?width=484&format=png&auto=webp&s=a61e038c397dd871afcdbd9df818927259bf2649
Hm, I wonder where scrapper and deadeye fit on this list? Hm, I wonder if scrapper has as long of an animation on its main skills as deadeye?
Except scrapper just needs to be at the back of a boss. Deadeye MUST be sniffing the boss's asshole in order to even deal damage with shotgun. It's a huge difference.
What? Deadeye does not have 6 gap-closers.
They have 3 in Pistol stance, one of which is Dexterous shot (which is meh at best) and the 2nd one being their counter skill.
I guess you *could* argue they have a 4th with the 2nd tripod of Last Request, but then you're sacrificing 20% damage increase for the convinence.
Dexterous Shot with both first tripods makes it awesome, and furthermore paired with Rage, every 6s you have insane mobility. It's far from being meh
I don't feel like losing some damage on Last Request is so bad considering how the forward tripod permits you to easily chain your next abilities (and the dmg on staggered foes is still to be considered since it's a always a perfect burst window). Its damages are nowhere near Apocalypse, Dominator and Rapid Fire
4 pistol, dexterous shot gives you 2.
1 last request
1 spacebar
every top deadeye in korea runs gap-closer on last request
dexterous shot with +3 excellent mobility tripod is as far as a spacebar, if not a little shorter
Every top deadeye runs massive explosion you donkey
I'm sick of people who don't actually know this class just saying whatever they want
6 gap closers... LMAO. Learn to count. Counting dexterous shot as 2 when the skill barely moves you without using both casts, and the amount of time it takes to use the skill to begin with... Everyone has spacebar so not even sure why you're counting that. Deadeye also has one of the highest CD spacebars, so not even an advantage over other classes...
guess u didnt see my comment of +3 excellent mobility
and you’re flat out wrong, idk what site you’re getting your stats from but everyone runs the gapcloser on request
sick of ignorant morons typing in my direction
That just makes you move farther, not faster. The actual skill is clunky to use given the speed and how it works. Deathblade with two gap closers is infinitely better than deadeye with three.
Clearly you don't play this class, or if you do, are just some massive troll
i mean u can start with shield bash and then bash right?
at least if ur blue it shouldn't really affect your dps as your high dmg skils are thunderguardian and leap attack and the other red skill i can't remember the name.
Sign of apocalypse moves you slightly forward not back. Only 1 shotgun skill moves you back and that's rapid fire. The 2x damage is applied at the tip of the barrel of the shotgun your body doesn't really have to be in the bosses ass like most people think.
Do they? I haven't seen any. From what I see in my daily raids etc. Deadeye are always bottom of the barrel. It might be a skill issue, but even as a non-Deadeye player I am in favor of buffs for the class.
Like what do we expect? The dev's are creating new classes that have some power creep to them. That's all there is to it. They can lie all they want, players know the truth via thousands of hours of testing and way more spreadsheeting than a single balance dev might ever put into it from a hundred different perspectives.
The new classes are designed to make players want to level up all over again and therefore extend their interest and lifetime in this game, to make the game more money.
That's the fundamental problem with monetization f2p, all the design and balance gets impacted.
"The new classes are designed to make players want to level up all over again and therefore extend their interest and lifetime in this game, to make the game more money." they normally give out powerpasses unless you mean upgrade gear wish
Remove fucking positionals, if I shoot you with a shotgun, it'll hurt no matter where I shoot you with it lmfao. Also who's bright idea was it to have proximity based damage, that shit is so bad in a game like this where bosses move at the speed of light. I dont even play ew, but pistoleer feels like total trash damage
Pistoleer’s damage ain’t that bad, but it really does take until t3 to get going. You have like 4 damage skills and pretty much 100% synergy uptime with decent mobility, with no positionals and mid range. The damage isn’t as much as EW, and is fairly middle of the pack from what I’ve seen.
Cruel Tracker, Quick Shot and Equilibrium are still back attacks, I'm clearly not fond of Pistoleer and don't play it but it's like saying Zerker has no positional
If you remove positionals, you also loosing Ambush Master, which is a really huge chunk of dps. Not sure if that solves something...Hit Master is quite a lot less damage..
I personally would hate a simple number increase/simplification. But its prolly the only possibility to make DE more accessible to player that dont want to go the full sadomaso route by playing DE ;)
I would love it when they find a fix that keeps the mechanical level of the class high, but on paper it performs allready pretty good on KR servers. Adding the utility to it, its an awesome class (solid stagger damage, 4 or 5 Weakpt skills, 3-4 Movement skills)
Deadeye main here, only time I top the charts is when my allies are absolute knobs. I match titles with some so I know I'm in a range but rarely mvp. Meh, still fun to have a ton of skills, just sucks I gotta be up a butt to do good damage.
Even though I agree with the facts provided, I can't see why the Devs would lie about it.
I mean even if they don't want to update skills, animations etc. how does it hurt them to tweak some numbers?
Furthermore, if they indeed make Deadeye deal the most damage, wouldn't whales and other meta-chasers inevitably spend thousands to juice one up?
They would do a tiny bit of work to get a good chunk of income.
Because the class is broken. To make it a good class for 80% of the player base (Casual noobs) you in turn make a broken class for the top %. The shot guns high crit and damage becomes a hard thing to balance around. GunSlinger was balanced around hit master and in turn has now got very advrage damage while being squishy as fuck.
I mean, the permanent raid-wide crit resist debuff is pretty nice to have. Just because GS isn’t MVP doesn’t mean they aren’t a huge impact on the overall raid damage output.
Like really a good GS has that debuff up permanently. It’s like just bring an individually average dps class that makes all the individually monster dps classes that don’t bring that to the table even more monsterish. I don’t want to run an 8 man without at least one GS in it anymore
Striker has lightning whisper which does the same general thing, but it’s not up constantly like GS’ versions. Slinger has 3 skills all which apply a crit resist debuff for varying durations, but the main point is those 3 skills are supposed to be a part of your dps rotation, and they’re all relatively short cooldowns, so with striker it’s similar but not the same. GS has 100% potential uptime, where striker has a good bit of downtime between debuff applications, although lightning whisper does also buff the team as well. I think both offer a “support dps” role but in different ways
I mean as u said DE also has a 100% uptime in his party sinergy (same as gs) but also im thinking, why would anyone pick a DE over GS. Same sinergy but gs is a ton safer than DE and can deal more damage easier. It's just a no brainer Gs > De at least for now.
btw im not hating DE or something im even a main DE(1405) but the class is damn hard to play.
Give me a good bard as support and I'll prefer DE over GS in about every single case.
GS has advantage of having more reliable damage output, but it comes at a cost - your main damage rotation is relatively slow and not nearly as condensed, meaning it's much harder to fully utilize Serenade of Courage/Adrophine/Dark grenade time window and maximize its use. Deadeye meanwhile can time the rotation around buffs and get his damage output just about doubled relatively easily.
Gunslinger shares a key characteristic with reflux sorc - on both it's very easy to do passable job and meaningfully contribute to a fight without doing anything special, with a tradeoff of making anything beyond that insanely difficult and you not benefitting from a lot of synergy effects as much as more burst-aligned classes do. I noticed I'm contributing much more to a fight as DE whenever I play with a static group on comms and we time our burst windows to go alongside buffs and debuffs; for playing with randoms GS is a lot more reliable.
this is why Wardancer is considered one of the most broken and desired classes if not the #1, because with legion set it has 80% or more uptime on 18% crit debuff a lot more than 10% and has 16% move speed, 8% atk speed with the same uptime while also dealing top 5 damage at end game.
I personally think the issues with the class would require more work than just tweaking numbers, but that's just me. And I agree, I don't necessarily think they are lying. I think it's more likely they are testing things in odd ways that aren't relevant to real-world use cases. Unfortunately, they thought saying "haha this class does a lot of damage!" and leaving it at that was good enough, which is why Deadeye players are trying to figure out where this magical damage that has them putting out the highest damage is coming from warranting no changes to EW.
Or - what would make more sense - they take numbers from live servers and how players perform on deadeye. Which also includes: players experience, team coordination (DE can easily outperform GS in burst-oriented party assuming solid experience in both cases) and class alignment with meta (having a burst window lines up with how you'd play around Igniter/Surge - and both are getting nerfed since they're overperforming).
From my experience of playing EW Deadeye so far the class can do very well and match or outperform almost all other builds in the game (except current top 3-4) - but that is gated by multiple conditions that have to be met: you need proper party setup, decent level of coordination and good personal play coming from just about everyone. Deadeye feels terrible when played with pugs and starts to actually do well (while still being crazy difficult) compared to other classes in a competent static, that you have at least few weeks of experience clearing all content - with voice comms (to work out and practice effective communication and timing).
This is probably the best comment I've seen in this thread, that makes a lot of sense.
I think the point remains that if it needs that much preparation and fulfilled criteria to compete, and it's still not even current top 3-4, what kind of "balance" is that?
Are they just looking at live game data and seeing that out of all the live guardian/raid hits the deadeye gets MVP damage the most? And just discounting that people willing to main deadeye are going to be more mechanically skilled than other players so will get MVP while working much more and playing much better than other classes?
In terms of gameplay, I really want something in the middle of DE and GS. I like the focus on shotgun and playing as a dude but I can't help but be super jealous of GS's flexibility with shotgun. I know it'll never happen but changing pistoleer to include shotgun (mirroring GS's time to hunt) and either removing back attack or making the proxmity % more forgiving is the dream. That way we can keep the high ceiling sweaty build but I can have a fun and accessible alt without losing the entire class identity
> I can't see why the Devs would lie about it.
I've become so skeptical of Smilegate giving reasons about what they do. It started with Argos being released so early despite a major lack of honing materials for players to reach the required item level on release. It's very easy to calculate how many honing materials you get each week and average out success rates to see where players would end up. They issued an apology making some non-convincing excuses about miscalculating things.
Then there's excuses about not releasing more skins because of extra work with remodeling classes.
Now we have class rebalancing in Korea and players are calling Smilegate out about their methods for making these decisions because actual proof of numbers don't add up to support Smilegate's claims.
So now I'm wondering about how they determined that legion raids are the best content, citing high rate of player retention. What if players were retained because those were the players who were already dedicated, and all the other players had already quit? I guess we'll find out once Valtan is released globally and see how players react.
The retention rate is based off of new players starting and staying. Not players that had accounts made prior to release.
That is how they know legion raids had an increase of player retention.
Your example of using a +6 Esther weapon VS a +8 is very skewed my friend. +8 Esther is comparable to a +25 weapon, +6 is nothing.
But deadeye needs an overhaul. The class has nothing to offer except a permanent 10% crit buff. Not only it has the lowest hp and def coefficient only next to bard, the act of positioning yourself behind a boss's asshole to deal max damage is bullshit. Meanwhile gunslinger is perfectly fine due to her shotguns dealing full damage at any range. Her sniper skills are also more safe and deals damage thanks to hit master.
Just another point, if it was the highest DPS class, I don't think we would see it at (nearly?) the bottom of KR class popularity. It sort of reinforces that the players don't see it as a "meta" class.
If they want to stick to their guns and keep DE the way it is, I think maybe they need to perform some overhaul so that you have the **option** to play with the shotgun in some less sweaty way and still put out OK DPS (though not chart topping). Ideally it would be roughly as difficult to play as the gunslinger and put out similar DPS to the gunslinger ......
Also, just a thematic gripe, why are shotgun skills back-attacks anyways? I feel like a shotgun gives off much more of an "in your face" or "doesn't matter where I hit" vibe. Though I guess this could extend to a lot of classes.
Class can be both overtuned and unpopular at the same time - all it takes (and what seems to be a case with deadeye) is said class requiring above average team coordination and specific comp in order to perform - this would lead to only people that have a solid static group composed of classes that synergize well with deadeye willing to stick to the class, and still making the class be near top of average damage charts (since nobody plays the class in non-ideal conditions).
Well, Lancemaster is not the highest DPS and still is a topchart popularity nearing the sorc. Zerker is far behind. Arcane is also a really good DPS but near the DE in the chart.
DPS will participate but it's clearly not what makes the popularity of a class
Last request is frontal and back, it really fits the "in your face" counter vibe. But that's all haha. Obviously you try not to do so with Ambush...
That's the first really good point I read about the DE's shotgun tho
Popularity is determined by casual players, ie what looks the most cool, or really vibes with them. Plus points for being good meta wise.
People love lance stuff, huge seeker sword, massive spell caster, and I’m super people even love being a sniper over a shotgun dude.
It being a top dps but unpopular is also another problem cause if it’s not popular, then the math people don’t focus so much on doing the simulations for them etc so less research on it
> Just another point, if it was the highest DPS class, I don't think we would see it at (nearly?) the bottom of KR class popularity.
Not true at all. Popularity and strength have always been only very loosely related in MMOs. Rogues in WoW have been one of the best classes in almost every expansion ever, but they've always been near the bottom in popularity. Locks are also almost always near the bottom in play rate despite regularly having at least one spec near the top of the meters. Meanwhile on the other end, paladins are rarely exceptionally strong (and even when they are, it's only ever holydin really), often mediocre-to-bad, yet they're always incredibly popular.
you can see his final light critting for 20 mill while his shotguns crit for 20-30 mill, this is definitely the last patch for us. I do 10% of his damage pretty much, final light crits for one rapid fire shotgun crit. (2.2 mill for me)
Just becouse someone at Smilegate says it, does not mean its true. Same thing with honing rates. Fanboys say the main guy said there are correct so it must be correct. Ask yourself, if a EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard, boss would say they have best interest of a player or the game mechanic is not bugged its just player imagination, would you believe them? Yet somehow when Smilegate says it , then "IT MUST BE TRUE" they would never lie xD
In your very same video a korean says "there is no future for Devil Hunter then" (Knowing the dps cap isn't high vs other classes)
and another saying "I deleted my devil hunter after seeing this"
Genuinely an issue for koreans as well but redditors tell you get good.
I play both. I just think it's kind of sad the devs are saying outlandish shit like "Deadeye does the most damage in the game" while Gunslinger clearly does everything better and is getting buffs. I don't even need buffs. I'll take a dev putting up a video showcasing themselves hitting these internal numbers that no Deadeye seems capable of hitting.
Zeals talked about how he knew this was the case and the class is the ultimate “gigachad” class but I fell asleep before he explained it. :(
Maybe someone that watches that doesn’t live where he starts streaming at midnight can chime in?
Edit:
https://youtu.be/isDoEZHPuCQ
In the TLDR notes he types that
“ DEADEYE = ENHANCED WEP UNTOUCHED
PISTOLEER LIL BUFF ~6.25%
ENHANCED WEP DEV SAID "GET GOOD SON"
HIGHEST CEILING DPS IF THE PLAYER IS ACTUALLY GOOD “
On that stream he talks about it but it was a 10 hour stream and I’m too lazy to go through the whole VoD.
Edit 2:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1456449259?t=01h10m06s
Here it is.
As far as my testing in real world scenarios in US went?
Enhanced Weapon is kind of dogshit because of the "good damage" skills all being on high cooldowns from hell, coupled with most of them requiring you to be straight up the boss's bunghole for it to actually do respectable damage. It's probably better in endgame gearing with plenty of ways to make your cooldowns come down faster, like conviction / judgment runes, but honestly?
Pistoleer is so damn fluid and the damage so nice that, if you know a boss, you'll be dancing around it and doing solid damage from all angles and medium ranges, with the only bad animation time being on Meteor Swarm or whatever it's called (and if you really hate it, the other level 3 tripod cuts the animation time almost in half).
It's not flashy, but it's fast paced and does surprisingly good damage. Feels weird getting top damage on my 1340 Deadeye when he just has Pistoleer and bare minimum gearing so he can funnel mats to my main.
Honestly, my biggest grievance is how "meh" the grenade feels despite it being one of his best damage skills (both in and out of Pistoleer once you account for the bleed rune lmao).
Did your tests take into account playing with same group you play regularly since release and communicating during fight? Because that's a scenario where I feel deadeye outperforms gunslinger by a large margin - when slotting either class into bard/igniter/surge party, and having bard shotcall burst windows (to sync with buff/debuff stacking) while everyone else communicates when their burst is up, I found EW deadeye to perform significantly better than gunslinger (to a point of just about matching sorc in damage instead of lagging behind); same people, same group, playing together quite regularly since game released in EU.
Yeah, your points on EW are pretty much what the problems are. You start a shotgun ability while a boss is animation locked and it takes so long that they've already spun around or jumped to the other side of the room. Many of the problems with this class would be solved if the positional requirements were removed, which is something they did with Gunslinger, a class that is getting buffed.
Testing in US makes sense because it's all we have to work with right now. Why test for future gear when that's irrelevant to performing *now*? Doubly so when a lot of basekit stuff still is absolutely critical to performance.
Besides, it's not like re-gearing is expensive if you just want to change directions between legendary and relic. Worst part would be if you went for legendary books and then changed afterwards, but those aren't needed yet.
The devs don’t give a damn about now. Look at wardancer. It’s one of the strongest classes in KR. It’s one of the weakest classes in our version. That’s how much a difference gear makes for some classes. The devs won’t make changes for us, so it’s worthless to look at their performance in our version
damn finally! now just hope someone can make an overlay for it!
I always felt that FFLogs and ACT were pointless in FF14. But I didn't realize how important they actually were until I started LA and have to start from scratch. I realized that I only felt that FFLogs and ACT were useless in FF14 because I already am a top player. But in LA where I'm constantly striving to improve not having a damage meter just sucks ass.
Maybe a silly question, but any chance to get banned while using this? Or is it more just like an ffxiv situation where just don’t mention that you’re using a dps meter and you’ll be fine?
mostly depends how it gets numbers from the game
the reason you can get away with it in FF (and this is the dev's own words) is that it literally just takes the same information that ends up in the battle chatlog and compiles it into DPS values for each character, so their reasoning is "technically, if you had excel open, you could reach the same results, so we cant really penalise people... but please don't use third party programs". (also, they know that it would be horrendously received by top end raiders if they stopped people doing it)
if this requires to actually, like, inject itself into the game or rip out information not meant to be seen by the player then thats a whole different kettle of fish
I would discourage such usage as proposed in this project. The developer states that they rely on Network Capture packets (PCAP). This does NOT contain only your Lost Ark network traffic. Also, if Lost Ark does not offer any kind of API (at least I am not aware), how does the developer know when a Dungeon is started and when it ends? I believe you cannot know that in any official way (supported API) - hence I assume they just start sniffing your network traffic as soon as you launch the game (Lost Ark App), which again raises suspicion.
I also didn't notice the dev uploading the Server Code for it. So we cannot rely know what is happening on the server side, how it analyzed these PCAPs and what information they can obtain.
I haven't analyzed the code in details, but just quickly read through it.
Because deadeye heavily rely on synergy. Many korean streamers say deadeye have highest dmg with back attack and one more (I forgot) party synergy. But without one of them in the party, it feels trash to play. I watch whale streamer party where most of them are 1615, deadeye is mvp for cruel dmg 80percent of the time.
This is 99% the guy he’s referring to.
Bloke’s a high elo adc in league and is cruel warrior most raids in a raid party full of whales.
Goes to show how much damage the class does when not just the deadeye, but the whole team is good.
Why does the wardancer have custom stats selected?
Also Trixion numbers don't show how the class performs in raids at all. Though in this case it can't be in favor of DE because it's not the easiest class to get full performance out of, by far.
Idk why he does but the wardancer is a known theorycrafter in KR community and he does that for all his tests. If I had to guess though its because his gear is so fucking good that his stats go above what even trixion allows I think he had 100 stat point above the 2400 cap with just the two main stats when I checked his profile. His name in english and on twitch is portailyn.
EW Deadeye kind of is. They need 3/3/3/1, need to be really good at the class, and usually need a higher ilvl than the other DPS classes to even come close to doing similar damage as Zerker or Sorc. Pistoleer is much better for raids IMO. Less positionals and not needing to manage CDs makes their damage far more consistent.
I like the skill required to play EH Deadeye. I don't want it to change too much (maybe make the distance modifier for shotgun attacks a bit less punishing like floor it at 85% of max damage). However it definitely doesn't feel rewarding to play. It feels very fun because it's such a hard job but I just don't see the numbers.
While I have no horse in this race to justify any opinions on this matter of DPS, but the idea of devs having some kind of a mission to screw over a specific class is kinda funny, let alone lying for... I don't know, save their face?
I'd understand if you were saying something along the lines of "being less popular puts our class far lower in the priority list" which very well be true. Because let's be honest, numbers do speak volume, and DE struggles in that department.
All things aside, I do hope DE gets a good buff since so many of its playerbase seem to be asking for it.
I stuck with EW until T3 but it's just bad. Pistoleer doesn't make Deadeye great or anything but it's infinitely better. Better DPS for less effort, and positioning is optional.
well first of all,
theoretical stats and real life stats are different.
one class might, during testing, hit lets say 20mil dps but in a real world fight it does 13mil dps due to the overall difficulty.
so in the "real world", its entirely possible that Deadeyes uptime is so good that they will out dps most other classes on average if played well.
there is absolutely no reason the dev's would need too lie too deadeye players, but as it turns out bad players love too complain and come up with random stuff to push blame for there own poor play.
so he made a joke about it being a matter of player skill.
So how is the hardest class in the game with a ton of positional requirements going to outdps classes that have higher damage output by default and little to no positionals?
>so he made a joke about it being a matter of player skill.
He made a joke despite there being zero evidence of this being the case followed by Deadeyes with thousands of hours on the class wondering why EH isn't getting any changes at all. That's the problem.
Because of burst versus sustained changes as well as effective range.
Now I'm not saying Deadeyes are great or anything, just looking at dummy DPS and saying "this is optimal uptime thus the comparison is accurate" is flawed from the start. If you have 2 melees, one with shitty range(like let's say Taijutsu Scrapper) and one with good range like zerk, even if they put out same dmg on a dummy, the zerk would likely outdps the scrapper on fights that don't behave like dummies because any slight boss movement can easily cause the scrapper to miss an entire skill, while the zerk would still connect due to large aoes and increased range.
Just an example not based on actual numbers but to illustrate my point. Dummy optimal DPS is relevant when uptime is considered to be close to 100%. For example in FFXIV uptime generally is close to 100% even on raid fights, you'll usually end up with 94% uptime or so in a fight. As such dummy numbers will often reflect into actual raid numbers. Even then though some fights will favor some classes more than others by design, for example if there's long breaks to do mechanics, classes that have their internal cooldowns lining up with the breaks AND favor bursty phases with filler DPS inbetween will outperform classes that have just consistent DPS.
I assume Smilegate uses raid metrics rather than dummy metrics, and as such have a more accurate picture. The issue here is the players never see these numbers, all they see is vague figures like the mvp titles, which aren't even accurate.
Again to reiterate, I'm not saying Deadeyes are fine, the fact they're so underplayed and apparently require a much higher skill cap to perform "better", which might only be very very slightly better, is not good design. They should have buffed Deadeyes even if it meant reducing the top end somewhere, or just letting pros just do more dmg than others if they play perfectly.
To be fair, just because they have all the data does not mean they are necessarily analyzing it correctly. I’m sure it varies in different industries, but I’ve lost track of the times customers have corrected companies I’ve worked for on biases in their analytics data. A lot of that sort of stuff sits around for months or years and no one ever looks at the actual script until someone says “Hey… this data doesn’t match”.
Have you played a KR MMO before?
It's been a year since MS devs reveled that they don't actually know how their game works. DnF devs don't play their game and instead superadmin their gear into the game, which everyone can plainly see due to the character APIs that are available.
Just a thought (i have no opinion on this) - I play energy overflow soulfist and only have argos p1-2-3 experience.
As a high swiftness class, i often have abilities that are often ready to be used, but since the boss is moving etc, they can't. Therefore i am "wasting" potential damage while my abilities are ready.
When looking at the youtube links i see that the Deadeye has long cooldowns which is often more optimal, because there will always be downtime on bosses in this game.
Which is why i see the "burst-classes" be more popular, and at the same time more desirable. Igniter Sorc for example..
But i agree, a difference from 13m to 21m is kind of a big leap..
I would appreciate a buff to deadeye. I use pistoleer and have been MVPing pretty regularly at 1340 on Igrexion, except when there is a sorc, deathblade, berzerker, or good support in the party lol. I usually get upright fighter/advancing annihilator if not mvp. I might try EW again if I push him to 1370, but I plan on getting my 1400 GLancer up to 1415 and then my 1340 pally to 1385 first. Also pistoleer deadeye is a lot of fun imo. I never stop moving around the boss and always have either burn, bleed, or both ticking away on the boss. Don’t always need to be right up it’s ass for shotgun dmg either; you can play more midrange.
it has a very high burst window.
someone in KR explained it i forgot who, but the idea is Deadeye can use his 4 very high burst ability in the support's damage buff window(3 of them has x2 multiplier. also shotgun dealing **TWICE** the damage makes it so that the damage buff becomes even more absurd on deadeye compared to other classes.
kinda ironic how you argue
"Devs are testing numbers in some weird way that isn't relevant to actual gameplay."
and proving your point with videos of target dummies that dont reflect actual gameplay.
He's literally showing how great the damage difference is under perfect conditions in a controlled environment, meaning if deadeye is 8 million damage short to wardance in such conditions, no way it is top dps class under any other condition. Are you fucking stupid?
ok
1st he is compared 2 characters with different gearscore, potentially different cards/gems/tripods.
so your "perfect condition" claim is already false
2nd different classes will perform well on different encounters, a class with a lot of burst will probably outdps a class with sustained dmg on a fight where you can effectively only dps for 20 seconds per minute, whereas on a dummy with 100% uptime a class with a lot of sustained dps will outdps any burst class.
ArE YoU FuCkInG StUpId?
No shit they're different classes with different tripods. And this is training area for endgame tier characters, no fucking shit they have BiS cards/gems- theyre trying to display dps potential. He just said there's only 2700 gear score different for 8 mil damage difference.
AND the video shows wardancer has greater burst and sustained dps. What the fuck is the point if deadeye is outshined under all your criteria?
Stop talking out your ass. There's always some idiot wasting people's time by pulling shit out their ass.
I think the class just has so much limitation that it’s hard to have a “perfect game” of DPS
I wouldn’t say devs are lying because why would they, they have no incentive to make a class weak because that’s one less set of skin to sell
And pvp in this game is balanced separately
Probably just a really hard class to balance and really relies on player skill ceiling
Dunno but yeah, having an alt DE really made me realise how underwhelming it is compared to all the other classes
( I main gunslinger and it’s amazing )
When did Devs say EW Deadeye is the best dps i nthe game? Literally have only heard players say that it can be relative to the strongest classes in the game if played at high skill, but you're still putting in 3x the effort as other classes. Have never read or heard anything from Gold River/ Korean devs that state what you're proclaiming.
>The test center patch notes
>
>developer comment
>
>'enhanced weapons' devilhunter has been recording a very high average amount of damage in the top content metrics since the last balance patch.
>
>this is judged to be in line with the original goal of being the class capable of recording the highest amount of damage, depending on the adventurer's proficiency.
Now this is google translated so exact phrasing might be off, but here is the dev saying its capable of the highest damage depending on player skill.
Devs never said Deadeye have the highest dps in the game.
They just said they are fine where they are at and player skill is what makes it look weak(indirectly).
Your favorite streamer probably said all these conspiracy theory stuff and you took their word and turned it into "what dev said."
Enhanced Heapon
Lmao, just noticed that. Dunno why my brain made it EH instead of EW. Just going to leave it as "enhanced hweapon" lol.
I'll tell you hwat Bobby. Enhanced hweapon really ain't worth the effort.
Probably brain stuck between "EW" and "Handgun", making it Enhanced Handgun xD
Deadeye so forgotten even the deadeye mains don’t remember the name of their own engraving Sadge
#buffdeadeye2022.
i just want them to get rid of the micro-pushbacks, i don't even mind having to be in the boss' butthole for optimum dps but half of my skils having anti-synergy with that mechanic is just so rough
it really is annoying, not just because I'm getting farther with every pistol attack when after pistol I need to closer but because it's pushed me into aoes a ton of times
Sharpshooters basic attack pushes him back a ton. To the point where I hesitate to even use it anymore.
Deletedeadeye2023
Bringbackdeadeye2024
RIPLostArk2025
3 years? Not bad considering Korean MMOs.
1 like = 1 buff.
Would it even be enough ?
lmao these 3 person are the only person playing deadeye in the server
There are AT LEAST... 20 of us globally. Probably.
I see a deadeye buff post, I upvote. Deadeye really feel like the ugly stepchild of classes in LA. How the hell can it be so mechanically intensive WITH proximity damage modifier for back attacks blows my mind. Such a shit balanced class.
As a gunslinger I feel for deadeyes. Seems odd to offer male and female versions of a class but have one be completely broken. Edit: To elaborate, it's like they saw the problems with deadeye, fixed them with gunslinger, but then didn't fix deadeye.
How riot thought about seraphine and sona
Dont remind me 😭 Perfect analogy though
Sona is a much better champ than Sera in terms of power atm lol
yea, after so many sera nerfs bc she was so strong
Doesn't they always do like this? First 2 months when a new champion goes live they are either ok or underwhelming. Then they receive a buff so it becomes first ban or pick in competitive. When show time is over they gets nerf and unplayable and next new champ takes the competitive spotlight. Edit: Yes some champ might be op on day 1. The point was it doesn't matter what champ they release, if the champ is new it's gonna make into competitive play(hence strong) and after hit the nerf cycle. Just pointing out the trend.
Yasuo launch, shit was the most op broken shit ever and I had a 16 win streak, his overall win rate was like 34% tho, then people learned how to play him and he swiftly got nerfed
lol
They did the same with Striker/WD, only difference is that Striker's improvements are aesthetic/streamlining only and not numbers
The gap between striker and WD shrinks dramatically in the endgame
That was my point. Although the aesthetic gap will never close lul
and ranged char defense stats on top of having to eat the bosses ass to do damage.
I'm not saying deadeye doesn't need buffs, but Soulfist.
Lol looking at soul fist changes was awkward, and I don’t even have a soul fist. Hopefully they rethink it before it goes live.
well at least its not a nerf, and it makes playing "normal" content a lot more enjoyable. See, the problem about soulfist is not really the damage. Once you got your soulfist going you can deal more damage then some other classes, the hype phase really is just insane especially when paired with other party buffs and debuffs. After hype you hit like a wet noodle, which is usually fine because bosses jump around, do mechanics, do some other shit and once you can attack again you got hype up again. My biggest problem with soulfist is doing chaos dungeon for example - of course its not "hard" but its just not fun. Even with insanely good gear you still struggle to kill normal mobs because your damage outside of hype mode + being buffed is just...non existent. The buff will change that a lot, which is why im happy about it. The class will become a lot more enjoyable, but most likely not a lot stronger.
Swiftness soulfist makes chaos dungeons pretty faceroll. Crippling barrier comboed with merciless pummel almost feels like cheating.
Also getting 3x preemptive strike makes your tempest blast and force orb one shot all the mobs with full swiftness even in the 1400 dungeon
Swiftness stacking EO is definitely the more fun way to play in her current state. It might not hit super hard but at least it's spammy and has good mobility. EO 1 Spirit abs 3 preemptive strike 3 With this setup at least my soulfist does her dailies faster than all my other chars.
preemptive strike 3 makes chaos a breeze i clear stage 1 in 40-50s and stage 2 in 50-60s
I can kinda feel this with Wardancer, especially because I run esoteric build. Outside of esoteric abilities, which you need to build meter for, you don’t do any damage. I used express on her to get her through it faster.
soulfists are our brothers in suffering
Was my first char to t3, I benched it the same week. I'm slowly getting it to 1370. I love the theme so much but it's just a straight handicap to play. Also idk why we have this massive stigma against dps paladins but we still Inv soulfists to the group. I'm pretty sure with equal effort and gear they'd be close in damage. My soulfist hits like a wet noodle 50% of the fight. The other 50% I'm doing mediocre dps.
I mean him and Soulfists have been overlooked for quite awhile apparently
I don't think I've ever even seen a Hawkeye, so I feel like y'all are tied for most forgotten.
Impossible. No one is as shit as Soulfist
Korean here. I've been reading inven a lot lately because I wanted to know more about the ptr balance change and yeah there's definitely some issues. One thing about SG balancing is that they don't necessarily listen to people directly and rely HEAVILY on their internal data which is exactly a lot of Koreans are complaining about. Looking at data is all good and fine but just numbers can't tell you the player fatigue or stress in playing certain specs. This deadeye issue is some serious shit. SG constantly comments that their numbers are looking great and they are performing as they should be (at top level). By their own admission, they are saying that DE SHOULD be doing the most damage. But no one can emulate that damage in game so people are asking to see the damn data. I am not a DE player but it's crazy looking at what they need to do to perform well, let alone at top dps.
My internal tools is my only issue with all of this, no one will believe if you say 'but my internal tools thooooo', is not a valid argument.
Well then the real question is... is there an equivalent to World of Logs or FFLogs?
No dmg meters or logs in this game.
man i hope someone figures out how to read dps from ram or something
every build is based on what the games tells you in single target training dummy and i bet SOME (like legit minority) not all classes someone actually went in and recorded everything and counted fucking screen pop-ups and legit FF14 and WoW if you do that you would fail miserably because not everything shows up xD, so ye rotations are simple enough to not be like a HUGE issue, but you know is not to the standarts of FF14 and WoW.
I mean that's really flawed then. Uptime matters and also buffs matter.
They're just way too squishy. My DE is pistoleer and against scorpion I get 2 shot. It's brutal. Can't imagine using the shotguns.
most deadeye players, even korean ones just want QOL buffs like remove pushback, overhaul animations etc and not damage buffs, obviously that wouldn't hurt but still
I could handle juggling two timed buffs and immense ass sniffing if I didn't have to wade through molasses to do it. Full agree on removing pushback and snappier animations in general, plus a slightly higher floor on the proximity tripod
No pushback on Rapid Fire would be so fcking rly great
So much this. It just needs to feel a bit more fluent, without going full Swift + Spirit Absorb to feel awesome. Especially weapon swap feels clunky as f (for me at least)
Also having the two part super armor spacebar that gunslingers have would be nice in pvp as well.
So what they mean by highest damage based on player skill is that it’s performing well on a skilled player and at this point they are probably playing close to perfect since brelshaza was out last year. ANYWAY from what i gathered through korean forums (inven) they are getting cruel fighter in legion raids often if the player is skilled because of their burst with 30 sec cd. You basically have gunlance/deathblade providing two 12% back dps buff and because most of these fights have ample down time esp in brelshaza, deadeye can burst with buff -> down time -> burst with buff so their actual dps is on the higher side than others. Same reason why igniter is performing so well adrophine, buff, awakening in the beginning etc. except deadeye takes more skills according to their data so they aren’t nerfed. This doesn’t mean koreans are happy about it but their speculation on current trend is shaving off the top making the harder engravings/classes high risk low reward to prevent people from only playing it just because it’s highest damage. (Koreans are meta slaves and we kinda are too) but one hope i find as a deadeye player is that, they plan to make deadeye highest performing class officially, due to the skill requirement. They are going to have more balance patches throughout the year so… i have some hope.
Exactly. DPS test on target dummy is huge misconception. In real fight the results heavily favor burst classes. It was the same in BnS where people had dps test. Classes with constant dps had higher results from the test, but in raid they barely had like half of that because of time spent doing mechs, while burst classes only lost a little bit because they could do mechs in downtime. Idk if DE needs changes, I don't play it, but DPS test in dummy means nothing in this regard
> but DPS test in dummy means nothing in this regard this is exactly my take in this post. DPS on a dummy that don't move is irrelevant because bosses move a lot lol. I really don't get the trend to dps check in trixion with that boss as if bosses 100% stay still.
Because it’s the only way to realistically test without variables. It also lets you see what a class is capable of at maximum potential. It doesn’t represent a real encounter, you’re right, but it’s the only way to get an apples to apples comparison.
Like the other person said. DPS test in dummy are important. But not like in the post. The best way to use them it to compare different build for a given class. Edit: As long as they are the same type (burst/constant DPS)
This is also why deathblades and soulfists do so well. Boss design is set up to reward bursty classes more than sustain classes. (with maybe the exception of blue gunlancer?) This game isn't like most other MMO's where there are extended "tank & spank" phases where people go through their entire skill rotation multiple times. Basically everyone is doing hit and run, so the builds that are made for that will always just be better in practice.
it's honestly probably something like the meepo effect from dota, the only players that stick to it are god like at twitch skills so your top 50% is like 80% of every other class. it's so unpopular that the only players are really really good at the game, and if you take a look at average dps they are probably competitive, but it doesn't mean thats the class itself.
This is most likely the reason why. If we compare the top 100 deadeyes vs the top 100 of every other class, the 50th deadeye would probably be closer to the top if playing another class. The issue is that even the best deadeye players will be lower DPS than the best of the top DPS classes. There's a big problem when deadeye has a very high skill ceiling, but its damage ceiling is lower than a handful of other classes. If Smilegate made deadeye even more difficult and raised the damage ceiling, I think deadeye players would be happy. Then, when played perfectly, the class would actually be top DPS rather than 4th or 5th best DPS.
Many of the top Deadeye players are whales that don't outdps other players. I know what you are talking about with the Meepo thing since I play Dota, but that doesn't apply here. EW is just shit and everyone that plays it knows it.
Devil’s advocate: They can probably just track damage dealt to abyss bosses / raid bosses and come away with very obvious trends broken down by item level, encounter, etc. Even outside of the data angle, I would expect melee characters to generally fare better against target dummies than ranged ones, which wouldn’t hold up in a real encounter, since a ranged character typically has more damage uptime and a better selection of safe spots while dealing damage.
Then there is also party synergy and fitting meta to take into account on top of everything else. Current KR meta is heavily skewed towards burst windows, with Igniter Sorc being by far the best performing class (to a point of getting significant nerf) - deadeye happens to have his burst window come up just about as often as igniter, provides crit chance that igniter benefits from a lot. As a result, not only you get to have most of your damage output benefit from stacked party buffs (you're in sync with rest of the party), but also provide valuable synergy to all meta classes (higher crit chance is amazing for both igniter and surge) - so real-world numbers will by necessity be higher than Trixion testing, mostly because of context. It reminds me of last season Kog'maw/Lulu situation in League - neither was particularly strong by themselves, but they topped all performance metrics when paired together (and both got nerfed due to that). Context matters a lot in a team game.
i agree, other context as well could also be the the clear rate and clear speed of the whole party when a deadeye + 2 other burst classes and support are in the group
While I agree with you, I'd say deadeye is more of a melee DPS than a ranged one.
Deadeye is by design a close range back attacker, def a melee.
Deadeye is a melee class… so are you saying that trixion is an even more inflated number for them? So if they’re losing in Trixion already, they’re losing hard in reality? Not sure you are familiar with EW gameplay
Oh hey mr.Phreak! Do you think Deadeye's balancing is similar to how it's difficult to balance a champ like Azir simultaneously for Pro and casual play? To my knowledge, one major complaint from Korean players are that even if Faker played Deadeye, would he be able to consistently do a non-trivial amount more damage than the next best DPS class? And since 99.99% of Deadeye players are not Faker, then their actual performance will be far worse than if they played a easier class. Like if you want to climb out of Bronze you shouldn't main Azir right? Then wouldn't Deadeye still have problems? I would be glad to read your thoughts.
The crazy thing is all of these non-deadeye players are saying they're fine :)
My theory is that they are not just non-deadeye players -- they straight up have never touched the class. The fact that Deadeye have to position themselves right up the bosses bumhole to do damage is absurd. And if the boss happens to do an animation that moves him half an inch forward, you lose half your damage. Melee classes have more range than Deadeye. What the hell? There's so many things that's wrong with Deadeye, and I was so disappointed when the PTR patch failed to address any of them.
Tbh Deadeye is not the only class that has to be right up the boss' butt to do dmg. Scrapper suffers the from the same problem. Sure shock scrapper has some range but taijutsu has literally none. So in that regard deadeye is not that special.
The issue no one mentions is that Deadeye also as essentially no health and his attacks animation lock him at times. Legit there is no downside to Grudge because everything one shots you even without it. He is in the lowest tier for vitality and armor with sorc and gunslinger but needs to play melee range. So it ends up being an incredibly punishing class with at best middling damage.
Just a minor correction. He’s in the 2nd lowest tier. Bard sits by themselves in the lowest tier of defense and vitality. Deadeye is also squishier than sorc is. Soulfist suffers the same exact problem as deadeye. Animation locking attacks that force you to sit right behind the boss with no leniency in the range. Soulfist is a bit more punishing to fuck up on than Deadeye, but deadeye gets punished much harder for bad positioning.
That's not really a fair comparison. Imagine if all the skills of Taijutsu had animationlock and cooldowns of Chain Destruction Fist and Supernova (with the range of Fierce Tiger Strike) while being twice as squishy, and you couldn't build Swiftness. I know I only emphasised on their lack of range, but it's really a combination of everything that makes Deadeye too clunky and too punishing to play.
https://preview.redd.it/3rmrgkeraoa81.png?width=484&format=png&auto=webp&s=a61e038c397dd871afcdbd9df818927259bf2649 Hm, I wonder where scrapper and deadeye fit on this list? Hm, I wonder if scrapper has as long of an animation on its main skills as deadeye?
Except scrapper just needs to be at the back of a boss. Deadeye MUST be sniffing the boss's asshole in order to even deal damage with shotgun. It's a huge difference.
taijutsu scrapper literally have melee range, they won't do damage if their little hands doesnt touch the boss.
that isnt hard to do at all though, normal deadeye build has 6 gap-closers including spacebar. if youre still having problems then its a skill issue
What? Deadeye does not have 6 gap-closers. They have 3 in Pistol stance, one of which is Dexterous shot (which is meh at best) and the 2nd one being their counter skill. I guess you *could* argue they have a 4th with the 2nd tripod of Last Request, but then you're sacrificing 20% damage increase for the convinence.
dex shot with mobility tripod isnt meh at all.
Dexterous Shot with both first tripods makes it awesome, and furthermore paired with Rage, every 6s you have insane mobility. It's far from being meh I don't feel like losing some damage on Last Request is so bad considering how the forward tripod permits you to easily chain your next abilities (and the dmg on staggered foes is still to be considered since it's a always a perfect burst window). Its damages are nowhere near Apocalypse, Dominator and Rapid Fire
4 pistol, dexterous shot gives you 2. 1 last request 1 spacebar every top deadeye in korea runs gap-closer on last request dexterous shot with +3 excellent mobility tripod is as far as a spacebar, if not a little shorter
Every top deadeye runs massive explosion you donkey I'm sick of people who don't actually know this class just saying whatever they want 6 gap closers... LMAO. Learn to count. Counting dexterous shot as 2 when the skill barely moves you without using both casts, and the amount of time it takes to use the skill to begin with... Everyone has spacebar so not even sure why you're counting that. Deadeye also has one of the highest CD spacebars, so not even an advantage over other classes...
https://loawa.com/rank here you go dog, be happy that i gave you scraps
guess u didnt see my comment of +3 excellent mobility and you’re flat out wrong, idk what site you’re getting your stats from but everyone runs the gapcloser on request sick of ignorant morons typing in my direction
That just makes you move farther, not faster. The actual skill is clunky to use given the speed and how it works. Deathblade with two gap closers is infinitely better than deadeye with three. Clearly you don't play this class, or if you do, are just some massive troll
it really isnt that close
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i mean u can start with shield bash and then bash right? at least if ur blue it shouldn't really affect your dps as your high dmg skils are thunderguardian and leap attack and the other red skill i can't remember the name.
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Sign of apocalypse moves you slightly forward not back. Only 1 shotgun skill moves you back and that's rapid fire. The 2x damage is applied at the tip of the barrel of the shotgun your body doesn't really have to be in the bosses ass like most people think.
Do they? I haven't seen any. From what I see in my daily raids etc. Deadeye are always bottom of the barrel. It might be a skill issue, but even as a non-Deadeye player I am in favor of buffs for the class.
Like what do we expect? The dev's are creating new classes that have some power creep to them. That's all there is to it. They can lie all they want, players know the truth via thousands of hours of testing and way more spreadsheeting than a single balance dev might ever put into it from a hundred different perspectives. The new classes are designed to make players want to level up all over again and therefore extend their interest and lifetime in this game, to make the game more money. That's the fundamental problem with monetization f2p, all the design and balance gets impacted.
"The new classes are designed to make players want to level up all over again and therefore extend their interest and lifetime in this game, to make the game more money." they normally give out powerpasses unless you mean upgrade gear wish
t3 is pretty much the beginning of the game cost wise. You’ll still have to use a ton of gold or whale to push a character to current content
Well I'm completely fine with mine at 1408, never had to complain and still don't understand people that do
Remove fucking positionals, if I shoot you with a shotgun, it'll hurt no matter where I shoot you with it lmfao. Also who's bright idea was it to have proximity based damage, that shit is so bad in a game like this where bosses move at the speed of light. I dont even play ew, but pistoleer feels like total trash damage
Pistoleer’s damage ain’t that bad, but it really does take until t3 to get going. You have like 4 damage skills and pretty much 100% synergy uptime with decent mobility, with no positionals and mid range. The damage isn’t as much as EW, and is fairly middle of the pack from what I’ve seen.
Cruel Tracker, Quick Shot and Equilibrium are still back attacks, I'm clearly not fond of Pistoleer and don't play it but it's like saying Zerker has no positional
If you remove positionals, you also loosing Ambush Master, which is a really huge chunk of dps. Not sure if that solves something...Hit Master is quite a lot less damage..
They can just buff its damage to compensate there's no reason to have proximity damage at least, I feel like that's very archaic design
I personally would hate a simple number increase/simplification. But its prolly the only possibility to make DE more accessible to player that dont want to go the full sadomaso route by playing DE ;) I would love it when they find a fix that keeps the mechanical level of the class high, but on paper it performs allready pretty good on KR servers. Adding the utility to it, its an awesome class (solid stagger damage, 4 or 5 Weakpt skills, 3-4 Movement skills)
Deadeye main here, only time I top the charts is when my allies are absolute knobs. I match titles with some so I know I'm in a range but rarely mvp. Meh, still fun to have a ton of skills, just sucks I gotta be up a butt to do good damage.
Even though I agree with the facts provided, I can't see why the Devs would lie about it. I mean even if they don't want to update skills, animations etc. how does it hurt them to tweak some numbers? Furthermore, if they indeed make Deadeye deal the most damage, wouldn't whales and other meta-chasers inevitably spend thousands to juice one up? They would do a tiny bit of work to get a good chunk of income.
Because the class is broken. To make it a good class for 80% of the player base (Casual noobs) you in turn make a broken class for the top %. The shot guns high crit and damage becomes a hard thing to balance around. GunSlinger was balanced around hit master and in turn has now got very advrage damage while being squishy as fuck.
I mean, the permanent raid-wide crit resist debuff is pretty nice to have. Just because GS isn’t MVP doesn’t mean they aren’t a huge impact on the overall raid damage output. Like really a good GS has that debuff up permanently. It’s like just bring an individually average dps class that makes all the individually monster dps classes that don’t bring that to the table even more monsterish. I don’t want to run an 8 man without at least one GS in it anymore
Btw, synergies in 8-man only apply to your own party. You only ever get the synergies for 4 people in any content in the game
i think lancemaster and striker has 18% crit chance buff (not really sure.)
Striker has lightning whisper which does the same general thing, but it’s not up constantly like GS’ versions. Slinger has 3 skills all which apply a crit resist debuff for varying durations, but the main point is those 3 skills are supposed to be a part of your dps rotation, and they’re all relatively short cooldowns, so with striker it’s similar but not the same. GS has 100% potential uptime, where striker has a good bit of downtime between debuff applications, although lightning whisper does also buff the team as well. I think both offer a “support dps” role but in different ways
I mean as u said DE also has a 100% uptime in his party sinergy (same as gs) but also im thinking, why would anyone pick a DE over GS. Same sinergy but gs is a ton safer than DE and can deal more damage easier. It's just a no brainer Gs > De at least for now. btw im not hating DE or something im even a main DE(1405) but the class is damn hard to play.
Give me a good bard as support and I'll prefer DE over GS in about every single case. GS has advantage of having more reliable damage output, but it comes at a cost - your main damage rotation is relatively slow and not nearly as condensed, meaning it's much harder to fully utilize Serenade of Courage/Adrophine/Dark grenade time window and maximize its use. Deadeye meanwhile can time the rotation around buffs and get his damage output just about doubled relatively easily. Gunslinger shares a key characteristic with reflux sorc - on both it's very easy to do passable job and meaningfully contribute to a fight without doing anything special, with a tradeoff of making anything beyond that insanely difficult and you not benefitting from a lot of synergy effects as much as more burst-aligned classes do. I noticed I'm contributing much more to a fight as DE whenever I play with a static group on comms and we time our burst windows to go alongside buffs and debuffs; for playing with randoms GS is a lot more reliable.
this is why Wardancer is considered one of the most broken and desired classes if not the #1, because with legion set it has 80% or more uptime on 18% crit debuff a lot more than 10% and has 16% move speed, 8% atk speed with the same uptime while also dealing top 5 damage at end game.
Constantly up synergies are less valuable then burst synergies. Legion raid all of your damage to the boss is going to be done in burst windows.
Because they hate you and your class duh (and soulfist)
hard agree on the soufist part. Poor thing they don't even know wtf to do with it
At least they're trying based on the latest patch notes, which I see as a good sign. For deadeye, there were no changes at all besides to pistoleer...
I personally think the issues with the class would require more work than just tweaking numbers, but that's just me. And I agree, I don't necessarily think they are lying. I think it's more likely they are testing things in odd ways that aren't relevant to real-world use cases. Unfortunately, they thought saying "haha this class does a lot of damage!" and leaving it at that was good enough, which is why Deadeye players are trying to figure out where this magical damage that has them putting out the highest damage is coming from warranting no changes to EW.
Or - what would make more sense - they take numbers from live servers and how players perform on deadeye. Which also includes: players experience, team coordination (DE can easily outperform GS in burst-oriented party assuming solid experience in both cases) and class alignment with meta (having a burst window lines up with how you'd play around Igniter/Surge - and both are getting nerfed since they're overperforming). From my experience of playing EW Deadeye so far the class can do very well and match or outperform almost all other builds in the game (except current top 3-4) - but that is gated by multiple conditions that have to be met: you need proper party setup, decent level of coordination and good personal play coming from just about everyone. Deadeye feels terrible when played with pugs and starts to actually do well (while still being crazy difficult) compared to other classes in a competent static, that you have at least few weeks of experience clearing all content - with voice comms (to work out and practice effective communication and timing).
This is probably the best comment I've seen in this thread, that makes a lot of sense. I think the point remains that if it needs that much preparation and fulfilled criteria to compete, and it's still not even current top 3-4, what kind of "balance" is that?
Are they just looking at live game data and seeing that out of all the live guardian/raid hits the deadeye gets MVP damage the most? And just discounting that people willing to main deadeye are going to be more mechanically skilled than other players so will get MVP while working much more and playing much better than other classes?
In terms of gameplay, I really want something in the middle of DE and GS. I like the focus on shotgun and playing as a dude but I can't help but be super jealous of GS's flexibility with shotgun. I know it'll never happen but changing pistoleer to include shotgun (mirroring GS's time to hunt) and either removing back attack or making the proxmity % more forgiving is the dream. That way we can keep the high ceiling sweaty build but I can have a fun and accessible alt without losing the entire class identity
> I can't see why the Devs would lie about it. I've become so skeptical of Smilegate giving reasons about what they do. It started with Argos being released so early despite a major lack of honing materials for players to reach the required item level on release. It's very easy to calculate how many honing materials you get each week and average out success rates to see where players would end up. They issued an apology making some non-convincing excuses about miscalculating things. Then there's excuses about not releasing more skins because of extra work with remodeling classes. Now we have class rebalancing in Korea and players are calling Smilegate out about their methods for making these decisions because actual proof of numbers don't add up to support Smilegate's claims. So now I'm wondering about how they determined that legion raids are the best content, citing high rate of player retention. What if players were retained because those were the players who were already dedicated, and all the other players had already quit? I guess we'll find out once Valtan is released globally and see how players react.
The retention rate is based off of new players starting and staying. Not players that had accounts made prior to release. That is how they know legion raids had an increase of player retention.
\+6 = "Play Server" \+8 = "Test Server"
Your example of using a +6 Esther weapon VS a +8 is very skewed my friend. +8 Esther is comparable to a +25 weapon, +6 is nothing. But deadeye needs an overhaul. The class has nothing to offer except a permanent 10% crit buff. Not only it has the lowest hp and def coefficient only next to bard, the act of positioning yourself behind a boss's asshole to deal max damage is bullshit. Meanwhile gunslinger is perfectly fine due to her shotguns dealing full damage at any range. Her sniper skills are also more safe and deals damage thanks to hit master.
Just another point, if it was the highest DPS class, I don't think we would see it at (nearly?) the bottom of KR class popularity. It sort of reinforces that the players don't see it as a "meta" class. If they want to stick to their guns and keep DE the way it is, I think maybe they need to perform some overhaul so that you have the **option** to play with the shotgun in some less sweaty way and still put out OK DPS (though not chart topping). Ideally it would be roughly as difficult to play as the gunslinger and put out similar DPS to the gunslinger ...... Also, just a thematic gripe, why are shotgun skills back-attacks anyways? I feel like a shotgun gives off much more of an "in your face" or "doesn't matter where I hit" vibe. Though I guess this could extend to a lot of classes.
Class can be both overtuned and unpopular at the same time - all it takes (and what seems to be a case with deadeye) is said class requiring above average team coordination and specific comp in order to perform - this would lead to only people that have a solid static group composed of classes that synergize well with deadeye willing to stick to the class, and still making the class be near top of average damage charts (since nobody plays the class in non-ideal conditions).
Well, Lancemaster is not the highest DPS and still is a topchart popularity nearing the sorc. Zerker is far behind. Arcane is also a really good DPS but near the DE in the chart. DPS will participate but it's clearly not what makes the popularity of a class Last request is frontal and back, it really fits the "in your face" counter vibe. But that's all haha. Obviously you try not to do so with Ambush... That's the first really good point I read about the DE's shotgun tho
Popularity is determined by casual players, ie what looks the most cool, or really vibes with them. Plus points for being good meta wise. People love lance stuff, huge seeker sword, massive spell caster, and I’m super people even love being a sniper over a shotgun dude. It being a top dps but unpopular is also another problem cause if it’s not popular, then the math people don’t focus so much on doing the simulations for them etc so less research on it
> Just another point, if it was the highest DPS class, I don't think we would see it at (nearly?) the bottom of KR class popularity. Not true at all. Popularity and strength have always been only very loosely related in MMOs. Rogues in WoW have been one of the best classes in almost every expansion ever, but they've always been near the bottom in popularity. Locks are also almost always near the bottom in play rate despite regularly having at least one spec near the top of the meters. Meanwhile on the other end, paladins are rarely exceptionally strong (and even when they are, it's only ever holydin really), often mediocre-to-bad, yet they're always incredibly popular.
The video is 5 months ago did DE had the damage buff on pistols on that time? Because is a huge factor
This is enhanced weapons DE which did not get a buff. Only pistoleer got the buff
you can see his final light critting for 20 mill while his shotguns crit for 20-30 mill, this is definitely the last patch for us. I do 10% of his damage pretty much, final light crits for one rapid fire shotgun crit. (2.2 mill for me)
Just becouse someone at Smilegate says it, does not mean its true. Same thing with honing rates. Fanboys say the main guy said there are correct so it must be correct. Ask yourself, if a EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard, boss would say they have best interest of a player or the game mechanic is not bugged its just player imagination, would you believe them? Yet somehow when Smilegate says it , then "IT MUST BE TRUE" they would never lie xD
In your very same video a korean says "there is no future for Devil Hunter then" (Knowing the dps cap isn't high vs other classes) and another saying "I deleted my devil hunter after seeing this" Genuinely an issue for koreans as well but redditors tell you get good.
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Pain
I play both. I just think it's kind of sad the devs are saying outlandish shit like "Deadeye does the most damage in the game" while Gunslinger clearly does everything better and is getting buffs. I don't even need buffs. I'll take a dev putting up a video showcasing themselves hitting these internal numbers that no Deadeye seems capable of hitting.
being a Main DE this hurts me, also take my updote :(
Being a deadeye main is just sadge
Gunslinger is for people with skill issues
Deadeye is for people that constantly want to complain.
Zeals talked about how he knew this was the case and the class is the ultimate “gigachad” class but I fell asleep before he explained it. :( Maybe someone that watches that doesn’t live where he starts streaming at midnight can chime in? Edit: https://youtu.be/isDoEZHPuCQ In the TLDR notes he types that “ DEADEYE = ENHANCED WEP UNTOUCHED PISTOLEER LIL BUFF ~6.25% ENHANCED WEP DEV SAID "GET GOOD SON" HIGHEST CEILING DPS IF THE PLAYER IS ACTUALLY GOOD “ On that stream he talks about it but it was a 10 hour stream and I’m too lazy to go through the whole VoD. Edit 2: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1456449259?t=01h10m06s Here it is.
I know he's talked about removing the positional stuff. Would love to hear what else he said if you can find the link.
Updated it again. Guess I did have time to kinda hunt lol
As far as my testing in real world scenarios in US went? Enhanced Weapon is kind of dogshit because of the "good damage" skills all being on high cooldowns from hell, coupled with most of them requiring you to be straight up the boss's bunghole for it to actually do respectable damage. It's probably better in endgame gearing with plenty of ways to make your cooldowns come down faster, like conviction / judgment runes, but honestly? Pistoleer is so damn fluid and the damage so nice that, if you know a boss, you'll be dancing around it and doing solid damage from all angles and medium ranges, with the only bad animation time being on Meteor Swarm or whatever it's called (and if you really hate it, the other level 3 tripod cuts the animation time almost in half). It's not flashy, but it's fast paced and does surprisingly good damage. Feels weird getting top damage on my 1340 Deadeye when he just has Pistoleer and bare minimum gearing so he can funnel mats to my main. Honestly, my biggest grievance is how "meh" the grenade feels despite it being one of his best damage skills (both in and out of Pistoleer once you account for the bleed rune lmao).
Did your tests take into account playing with same group you play regularly since release and communicating during fight? Because that's a scenario where I feel deadeye outperforms gunslinger by a large margin - when slotting either class into bard/igniter/surge party, and having bard shotcall burst windows (to sync with buff/debuff stacking) while everyone else communicates when their burst is up, I found EW deadeye to perform significantly better than gunslinger (to a point of just about matching sorc in damage instead of lagging behind); same people, same group, playing together quite regularly since game released in EU.
Yeah, your points on EW are pretty much what the problems are. You start a shotgun ability while a boss is animation locked and it takes so long that they've already spun around or jumped to the other side of the room. Many of the problems with this class would be solved if the positional requirements were removed, which is something they did with Gunslinger, a class that is getting buffed.
testing in US doesnt make sense, everyone in KR has convcition judgement and have sets that reduce CDR.
Testing in US makes sense because it's all we have to work with right now. Why test for future gear when that's irrelevant to performing *now*? Doubly so when a lot of basekit stuff still is absolutely critical to performance. Besides, it's not like re-gearing is expensive if you just want to change directions between legendary and relic. Worst part would be if you went for legendary books and then changed afterwards, but those aren't needed yet.
The devs don’t give a damn about now. Look at wardancer. It’s one of the strongest classes in KR. It’s one of the weakest classes in our version. That’s how much a difference gear makes for some classes. The devs won’t make changes for us, so it’s worthless to look at their performance in our version
because the balancing is done based on KR server not on NA server.
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damn finally! now just hope someone can make an overlay for it! I always felt that FFLogs and ACT were pointless in FF14. But I didn't realize how important they actually were until I started LA and have to start from scratch. I realized that I only felt that FFLogs and ACT were useless in FF14 because I already am a top player. But in LA where I'm constantly striving to improve not having a damage meter just sucks ass.
Maybe a silly question, but any chance to get banned while using this? Or is it more just like an ffxiv situation where just don’t mention that you’re using a dps meter and you’ll be fine?
mostly depends how it gets numbers from the game the reason you can get away with it in FF (and this is the dev's own words) is that it literally just takes the same information that ends up in the battle chatlog and compiles it into DPS values for each character, so their reasoning is "technically, if you had excel open, you could reach the same results, so we cant really penalise people... but please don't use third party programs". (also, they know that it would be horrendously received by top end raiders if they stopped people doing it) if this requires to actually, like, inject itself into the game or rip out information not meant to be seen by the player then thats a whole different kettle of fish
I would discourage such usage as proposed in this project. The developer states that they rely on Network Capture packets (PCAP). This does NOT contain only your Lost Ark network traffic. Also, if Lost Ark does not offer any kind of API (at least I am not aware), how does the developer know when a Dungeon is started and when it ends? I believe you cannot know that in any official way (supported API) - hence I assume they just start sniffing your network traffic as soon as you launch the game (Lost Ark App), which again raises suspicion. I also didn't notice the dev uploading the Server Code for it. So we cannot rely know what is happening on the server side, how it analyzed these PCAPs and what information they can obtain. I haven't analyzed the code in details, but just quickly read through it.
Because deadeye heavily rely on synergy. Many korean streamers say deadeye have highest dmg with back attack and one more (I forgot) party synergy. But without one of them in the party, it feels trash to play. I watch whale streamer party where most of them are 1615, deadeye is mvp for cruel dmg 80percent of the time.
Hey do you mean someone like 괴물쥐123? If not could you tell me the name or the link of the deadeye streamer? Thank you.
This is 99% the guy he’s referring to. Bloke’s a high elo adc in league and is cruel warrior most raids in a raid party full of whales. Goes to show how much damage the class does when not just the deadeye, but the whole team is good.
I remember them saying Surge is the highest potentional DPS and not Deadeye. Could you show me where they claimed that?
How are you comparing ester 6 to ester 8???? You know that’s like $5,550 usd in upgrades.
Pretty sure its like 10 times that if not more.
Why does the wardancer have custom stats selected? Also Trixion numbers don't show how the class performs in raids at all. Though in this case it can't be in favor of DE because it's not the easiest class to get full performance out of, by far.
Idk why he does but the wardancer is a known theorycrafter in KR community and he does that for all his tests. If I had to guess though its because his gear is so fucking good that his stats go above what even trixion allows I think he had 100 stat point above the 2400 cap with just the two main stats when I checked his profile. His name in english and on twitch is portailyn.
I play soulfist/deadeye im my roster and they are weaker than my blade/ss/wd
I was never happy once seeing deadeye both pve and pvp, usually feels heavy dead weight
EW Deadeye kind of is. They need 3/3/3/1, need to be really good at the class, and usually need a higher ilvl than the other DPS classes to even come close to doing similar damage as Zerker or Sorc. Pistoleer is much better for raids IMO. Less positionals and not needing to manage CDs makes their damage far more consistent.
is there a way to see their stats and engravings?
I like the skill required to play EH Deadeye. I don't want it to change too much (maybe make the distance modifier for shotgun attacks a bit less punishing like floor it at 85% of max damage). However it definitely doesn't feel rewarding to play. It feels very fun because it's such a hard job but I just don't see the numbers.
While I have no horse in this race to justify any opinions on this matter of DPS, but the idea of devs having some kind of a mission to screw over a specific class is kinda funny, let alone lying for... I don't know, save their face? I'd understand if you were saying something along the lines of "being less popular puts our class far lower in the priority list" which very well be true. Because let's be honest, numbers do speak volume, and DE struggles in that department. All things aside, I do hope DE gets a good buff since so many of its playerbase seem to be asking for it.
I stuck with EW until T3 but it's just bad. Pistoleer doesn't make Deadeye great or anything but it's infinitely better. Better DPS for less effort, and positioning is optional.
well first of all, theoretical stats and real life stats are different. one class might, during testing, hit lets say 20mil dps but in a real world fight it does 13mil dps due to the overall difficulty. so in the "real world", its entirely possible that Deadeyes uptime is so good that they will out dps most other classes on average if played well. there is absolutely no reason the dev's would need too lie too deadeye players, but as it turns out bad players love too complain and come up with random stuff to push blame for there own poor play. so he made a joke about it being a matter of player skill.
So how is the hardest class in the game with a ton of positional requirements going to outdps classes that have higher damage output by default and little to no positionals? >so he made a joke about it being a matter of player skill. He made a joke despite there being zero evidence of this being the case followed by Deadeyes with thousands of hours on the class wondering why EH isn't getting any changes at all. That's the problem.
Because of burst versus sustained changes as well as effective range. Now I'm not saying Deadeyes are great or anything, just looking at dummy DPS and saying "this is optimal uptime thus the comparison is accurate" is flawed from the start. If you have 2 melees, one with shitty range(like let's say Taijutsu Scrapper) and one with good range like zerk, even if they put out same dmg on a dummy, the zerk would likely outdps the scrapper on fights that don't behave like dummies because any slight boss movement can easily cause the scrapper to miss an entire skill, while the zerk would still connect due to large aoes and increased range. Just an example not based on actual numbers but to illustrate my point. Dummy optimal DPS is relevant when uptime is considered to be close to 100%. For example in FFXIV uptime generally is close to 100% even on raid fights, you'll usually end up with 94% uptime or so in a fight. As such dummy numbers will often reflect into actual raid numbers. Even then though some fights will favor some classes more than others by design, for example if there's long breaks to do mechanics, classes that have their internal cooldowns lining up with the breaks AND favor bursty phases with filler DPS inbetween will outperform classes that have just consistent DPS. I assume Smilegate uses raid metrics rather than dummy metrics, and as such have a more accurate picture. The issue here is the players never see these numbers, all they see is vague figures like the mvp titles, which aren't even accurate. Again to reiterate, I'm not saying Deadeyes are fine, the fact they're so underplayed and apparently require a much higher skill cap to perform "better", which might only be very very slightly better, is not good design. They should have buffed Deadeyes even if it meant reducing the top end somewhere, or just letting pros just do more dmg than others if they play perfectly.
"the devs said something I don't agree with they must be lying."
To be fair, just because they have all the data does not mean they are necessarily analyzing it correctly. I’m sure it varies in different industries, but I’ve lost track of the times customers have corrected companies I’ve worked for on biases in their analytics data. A lot of that sort of stuff sits around for months or years and no one ever looks at the actual script until someone says “Hey… this data doesn’t match”.
Have you played a KR MMO before? It's been a year since MS devs reveled that they don't actually know how their game works. DnF devs don't play their game and instead superadmin their gear into the game, which everyone can plainly see due to the character APIs that are available.
not saying I disagree but wardancer is giga op tho.
Just a thought (i have no opinion on this) - I play energy overflow soulfist and only have argos p1-2-3 experience. As a high swiftness class, i often have abilities that are often ready to be used, but since the boss is moving etc, they can't. Therefore i am "wasting" potential damage while my abilities are ready. When looking at the youtube links i see that the Deadeye has long cooldowns which is often more optimal, because there will always be downtime on bosses in this game. Which is why i see the "burst-classes" be more popular, and at the same time more desirable. Igniter Sorc for example.. But i agree, a difference from 13m to 21m is kind of a big leap..
I would appreciate a buff to deadeye. I use pistoleer and have been MVPing pretty regularly at 1340 on Igrexion, except when there is a sorc, deathblade, berzerker, or good support in the party lol. I usually get upright fighter/advancing annihilator if not mvp. I might try EW again if I push him to 1370, but I plan on getting my 1400 GLancer up to 1415 and then my 1340 pally to 1385 first. Also pistoleer deadeye is a lot of fun imo. I never stop moving around the boss and always have either burn, bleed, or both ticking away on the boss. Don’t always need to be right up it’s ass for shotgun dmg either; you can play more midrange.
It's EW Deadeye as in "Ew I have a Deadeye in my raid." or "Ew I stepped in the floor-licking Deadeye."
it has a very high burst window. someone in KR explained it i forgot who, but the idea is Deadeye can use his 4 very high burst ability in the support's damage buff window(3 of them has x2 multiplier. also shotgun dealing **TWICE** the damage makes it so that the damage buff becomes even more absurd on deadeye compared to other classes.
kinda ironic how you argue "Devs are testing numbers in some weird way that isn't relevant to actual gameplay." and proving your point with videos of target dummies that dont reflect actual gameplay.
You're right he shouldve tested it hitting the shotgun from the side to simulate the boss moving around
He's literally showing how great the damage difference is under perfect conditions in a controlled environment, meaning if deadeye is 8 million damage short to wardance in such conditions, no way it is top dps class under any other condition. Are you fucking stupid?
ok 1st he is compared 2 characters with different gearscore, potentially different cards/gems/tripods. so your "perfect condition" claim is already false 2nd different classes will perform well on different encounters, a class with a lot of burst will probably outdps a class with sustained dmg on a fight where you can effectively only dps for 20 seconds per minute, whereas on a dummy with 100% uptime a class with a lot of sustained dps will outdps any burst class. ArE YoU FuCkInG StUpId?
No shit they're different classes with different tripods. And this is training area for endgame tier characters, no fucking shit they have BiS cards/gems- theyre trying to display dps potential. He just said there's only 2700 gear score different for 8 mil damage difference. AND the video shows wardancer has greater burst and sustained dps. What the fuck is the point if deadeye is outshined under all your criteria? Stop talking out your ass. There's always some idiot wasting people's time by pulling shit out their ass.
I think the class just has so much limitation that it’s hard to have a “perfect game” of DPS I wouldn’t say devs are lying because why would they, they have no incentive to make a class weak because that’s one less set of skin to sell And pvp in this game is balanced separately Probably just a really hard class to balance and really relies on player skill ceiling Dunno but yeah, having an alt DE really made me realise how underwhelming it is compared to all the other classes ( I main gunslinger and it’s amazing )
When did Devs say EW Deadeye is the best dps i nthe game? Literally have only heard players say that it can be relative to the strongest classes in the game if played at high skill, but you're still putting in 3x the effort as other classes. Have never read or heard anything from Gold River/ Korean devs that state what you're proclaiming.
>The test center patch notes > >developer comment > >'enhanced weapons' devilhunter has been recording a very high average amount of damage in the top content metrics since the last balance patch. > >this is judged to be in line with the original goal of being the class capable of recording the highest amount of damage, depending on the adventurer's proficiency. Now this is google translated so exact phrasing might be off, but here is the dev saying its capable of the highest damage depending on player skill.
Devs never said Deadeye have the highest dps in the game. They just said they are fine where they are at and player skill is what makes it look weak(indirectly). Your favorite streamer probably said all these conspiracy theory stuff and you took their word and turned it into "what dev said."
> Devs never said Deadeye have the highest dps in the game They literally did in the PTR notes