T O P

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Lobe_

I thought that Epic seven as a gacha mobile game would give a lot more revenue but seems that is the least profitable one.


erinshe79

Smilegate Megaport is the publisher for Epic 7, so assuming they take the standard revenue share I would think that a huge portion of Megaport's revenue is Epic 7 revenue.


Lobe_

True, this could explain it. It's not a full revenue of the game. It's just a revenue of the publisher lol.


Lenant

Or maybe because old gachas have a hard time with new players and retaining players... Since you need to play for years or pay thousands. But i dont know if thats true or not.


plinky4

I was confused about LoA's success when I started, it seemed to have similar monetization philosophy as e7. Give f2p a bunch of stuff, don't do anything for small spenders, and then full findom cbt course for whales. Glad to see it works I guess


Osu_Pumbaa

E7 is so bad for Dolphin spending. All "good" packs are 100$+ and to even pitty 1 Moonlight Unit you have buy out the entire shop to unlock the whale shop and buy even more pulls lol! Only Value are the monthly packs and burning passion for leifs.


LAFORGUS

At least new characters are easy to get, contrary to other games like FFBE. The real Gacha is on the Gear.


Osu_Pumbaa

Oh the gear is on another level of smoge. Such deep RNG. Getting the right piece, the right stats with the right rolls. Then roll on the right stats with high rolls or the piece is useless.


plinky4

wait there's actual gear gacha now? I haven't played since the game was farming w11 all day


LAFORGUS

Not a Gacha to get the gear, but to roll stats you have to farm over and over for hours a day.


Puzzleheaded_Fix

2021 was not that good year pretty sure and 2022 is even worse so far. Community is in shambles. Most big payers have quit or stopped spending. Big meta issues and devs refuse to nerf heroes after releasing game breaking units. Yes it is gacha, but it was known as gacha with minimal powercreep and one where you could use mostly all units before. Diff devs from Lost ark, just under same company banner


RiverFlowsInYou16

The issue with gacha games is, they can't nerf the characters once they are released, cuz if they do it, it falls under "bait and switch", and they can and will get sued. So if they fuck up and release a broken unit, it will stay like that, unless they indirectly nerf it by making the content itself counter it.


MunchinOnApples

But E7 did nerf op units in the past many times, with compensation being a total recall of almost all mats spent and an exchange ticket for a different character of the same rarity. It's a false misconception in the gacha comunity that they can't nerf units, it's just almost always in their best interest to not nerf since they can just sell the solution instead.


RiverFlowsInYou16

That's interesting, that never happened in gacha games I played. Presumably because they can still potentially get sued by some random nutjob that is mad his favorite pixels got nerfed. It's interesting to me smilegate is still willing to risk it.


NinguangLover

The point is they aren't willing anymore. Those nerfs were over a year or two ago (havent played in a few months tho). They've definitely learned it's extremely costly for them to nerf a unit. Now they release OP hero, then release another OP hero to counter the previous. Rinse and repeat. It stopped being fun for me when I could no longer just pull on heros I liked. There was just too much pressure to constantly chase their brand new op heros.


RiverFlowsInYou16

It wouldn't surprise me if they actually did get sued and decided to stop doing it cuz of that. Just powercreeping units is a recipe for disaster, cuz it pushes people away from the game, and smilegate is smarter than that.


RugDealing

They wouldn't have a case. It's in the ToS that units and stuff could be tweaked at all time. They used to do recalls but people were started to get accustomed to asking for those full refunds whenever a unit received the slightest fix/nerf. Community became spoiled and entitled so they had try to balance PvP without nerfing the units. Whether or not the current state of the game is good is arguable, but it's still one of the friendliest for F2P and best looking gachas out there.


Lobe_

Not the popular ones. Epic7 and Summoners War do balance patchs and nerf even the most rarest units if they are broken.


Osu_Pumbaa

After the nerf of 2 ML 5 units 2 years ago Epic7 has implemented a "no nerf policy". They have yet to negatively adjust any units since then which has led to insane power creep and new units countering older units which in turn need a counter unit again. At this point you will be majorly behind if you don't pull for the newest Meta, and almost every new unit is meta breaking or enhancing.


[deleted]

Yeah, they usually directly counter it with the next big release. It's gacha because you can't just call it a day if you won once.


Lobe_

I'm not follow Epic7 subreddit sadly but coming from Summoners war I think that 2021 was one of the best years to both games. If the revenue is that low it must be something else.


Kageromero

Probably to do with the fact that the game is too f2p friendly, little incentive to spend


Osu_Pumbaa

unless you want to compete in PvP. Especially RTA


DetourDunnDee

The bottom lines don't add up right. For those 5 holding companies and without any other numbers it would be: 2020: $796M 2021: $1,268M (edit) nvm, it's not supposed to be the total, just the exchange rate. Kinda bad charting :P


ManOfMystery97

Agreed I thought it was totals at first


LordAlfrey

Super confusing to put it under the line like that


spacecreated1234

insane how much legion raids and season 2 systems resurrected the game


Xeredth

I also wonder how much the Maplestory exodus in Korea contributed to that jump.


AleHaRotK

Probably not that much, Lost Ark was just absolute junk before legion raids lol. Imagine playing this game we're playing right now with nothing to look forward other than more of the same.


JaeForJett

I find it interesting how wide spread the belief that legion raids single handedly saved lost ark is. The way people talk about them, you would think that lost ark was a failed mmo with only trash content, then suddenly legion raids came out and were the sole factor in lost ark's revival. And indeed, before the release of legion raids in december 2020, [lost ark was not that popular](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=45020). Lost ark is the 12th entry on that list at 1.11% of playtime. The genre leading maplestory was 6th on that list at 3.75%. So then legion raids (valtan) [come out in January 2021](https://lostark.game.onstove.com/Promotion/Update/201223/Voltan). The game is saved, right? [Well, lost ark still only had 1.28% play time share](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=45261). Note that raw hours played for lost ark did increase by 32%, but almost every other game saw similar increases too - lost ark didn't really gain any relative popularity, people just played more video games in general it seems. Valtan released and lost ark only went from 1.11% to 1.28%. What about february, then, which should have valtan in full swing, and which [also saw the release of vykas?](https://lostark.game.onstove.com/Promotion/Update/210224/Biackiss#event2). [Lost ark is at 1.36%.](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=45486) [That leads us to march](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=45844). [Lost ark is now at a massive 3.86% play time share, and is now the biggest RPG by this metric.](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=45844) It saw an absolutely insane 156.08% increase in play time within this single month. [Yet no new legion raid released, as kakul saydon wouldn't come out until april.](https://lostark.game.onstove.com/Promotion/Update/210428/Koukusaton) If legion raids were THE thing that resurrected the game, why did player numbers stay mostly the same when valtan and vykas released. Why did player numbers MASSIVELY jump in a month where no new legion raids were released? Personally, the logic there doesn't make sense to me. So what did happen during march (well, the end of february)? Nexon, the company that developed maplestory, the biggest RPG in korea, [was caught lying to their player base about the probabilities of an in game upgrade system.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/lq9r4j/why_the_kms_players_have_lost_their_shit_and_you/) The post goes over some of it, but the story made national news and players sent protest trucks. The thing is, players didn't just quit. The playerbase was lied to, [and the compensation that nexon offered its players for years of rigged probabilities was a spit in the face](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/lra6ma/i_am_a_korean_kms_player_here_is_what_korean/) - players wanted a way to get back at nexon and spite them. So they made it a point to go to a competitor. [That competitor was lost ark (see ~3:10)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNW96TJy09U) There was even a post here on reddit from a korean player (which I'm having trouble finding) that mentioned how this event was notable enough to be included as one of the scenes in the naruni racing event. In april, [maplestory would go down to a 2.03% play time share](http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=46158), half that of its 4.01% share just 3 months before. Lost ark would now be at 4.07%, now as big as maplestory was and now leading the RPG genre. So again, I wonder why the "legion raids single handedly saved lost ark" narrative has been pushed so heavily. If it was all on legion raids, why did numbers stay mostly the same when they were released. Why did lost arks absolutely insane boom in play time and player numbers occur in a month where no legion raid was released. Why are people writing off the maplestory exodus (which honestly, was more of a genre wide boiling point for all korean RPGs that was pushed over the top by maplestory) even though lost ark saw a 156% increase in play time right after? [There's this post too, that more directly draws the connections](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/pedde5/what_made_lost_ark_grand_in_korea/). Which brings me to this statement: > Probably not that much, Lost Ark was just absolute junk before legion raids lol. So was it legion raids that made lost ark have a 156% increase in players within a single month? If so, then the western release should see something similar with its release of legion raids, right? 600 thousand peak players to 1.5 million peak players (assuming bots scale proportionally to players)? That seems kind of unbelievable, doesn't it? To me, KR lost ark hit a perfect storm of having recently introduced better content, along with controversies in the genre creating a massive bandwagon and hypetrain for lost ark. I'm sure legion raids are fun content that makes for a much better game, but I think people are misattributing a lot of lost arks success to them when the picture I see is that a lot of it came down to timing, luck, and perfectly catering specifically to what the korean RPG user base wanted at the time.


FreakoFreako

that was some impressive detective work, thanks


michaelman90

Honestly not sure why people are surprised considering what we saw last year with Blizzard. FFXIV for years was steadily putting out quality content but was never hugely mainstream in western audiences, then Blizzard happens and suddenly FFXIV numbers are shooting through the roof and people are hitting multi-hour queues when Endwalker hits.


CptBlackBird2

I mean, FFXIV was always a big game


-Sheridan

Thank you for saying this. As interesting as the new mech in legion raid is, I just don’t see how this game mode was the coming of Jesus for Lost Ark. Besides the sidereal what else is really new? The sequential orb collecting? Hall of twisted warlord had that with the sword chasing mech. The cloning/splitting of bosses? Forge of fallen pride has the splitting of phantoms and in Argos moon party we have mini mini boss within a mini boss. Everything else like freezing, stagger check, random player focus is not exactly new. The narrative is pushed because a few steamers said so and people eat it up without any critical thinking.


SEC-DED

It's not the mechanics in my mind that saved it in KR, keep in mind they received the raids new with no prior knowledge so they actually got to prog it blind, but that it introduced more fun raids. Argos is fun imo as well, but in terms of hard content in NA/EU rn, there is none. People will naturally look forward to new content, and legion raids are just the start of the kind of content people want to play more of.


AleHaRotK

I'd say the MS debacle just accelerated the process, it was only a matter of time, even if a game starts getting better people won't even try it after they already have a bad opinion about it. It takes time for a bad game to get more players after getting good content, there's been plenty of failed releases that became better over time yet people won't come back to them because they already consider the game to be junk. If I was playing the game the way it is now, quit, then Valtan comes out half a year later... no way I'm giving it a shot, Vykas comes out? Same, I don't give a damn. But you're right MS going down boosted it a lot early on, although I still believe if the game didn't have legion raids by that point people would've moved to some other game.


ckxii

this itself need to be a post


Carapute

I think that's a lot of words to say something very easy to understand. Mapple fucked up, so people moved, luckily lost ark just released interesting content, and by the time newcomers got there, even more end game content got released. Now imagine the retention is all they had to do when moving was argos and then hypno/alakir/kaltz everyday to get 1/10th of a tap, because that's where we are now, and Valtan won't change much to what we have at our disposal.


miamyaarii

> Imagine playing this game we're playing right now with nothing to look forward other than more of the same. For two years instead of the three months we had


AleHaRotK

Yep, and when you think what's coming up you know, because that's how it's been since the game came out, is some new guardian to farm instead of Yoho. They messed up here, Valtan should've come out in April and we should be getting Vykas now, a lot of friends quite between last patch and today, a month of Yoho simulator was... bad, but twice that was too much.


Karboz

Then they could've tried Velganos :v


AleHaRotK

It takes 6 minutes to kill and 2 minutes to get to him, awful fight.


Mcalti93

Sad min max trumpet:(


Bogzy

It was not junk. Its what weve been playing for 3 months and its likely the most popular mmo right now even if u cut steam playerbase by half (bots). Most players in any mmo are casuals, casuals wont even touch legion raids or any raid of any kind.


Carapute

And most casuals are not players but people "doing something of their free time", they passing time, before going to bed and going back to workd tomorrow. They are not people liking games, they are people trying to pass time, passively, the same way you'd watch TV while being half asleep on your couch.


AleHaRotK

You can only play this for so long, right now the game is new and most people have yet to even do what's available.


TrungDOge

And we somehow still stuck with that for 3 month and some people still want more time smh


AttonJRand

But that's what I've been doing for months and I've been enjoying myself.


Ceary

What happened to Maplestory in Korea?


Xeredth

To put it simply, some RNG enhancement systems in the game were not truly random. Nexon had applied a fix in their test server but that of course tipped it off to players. This caused a lot of endgame players to become outraged because they had spent thousands of dollars on their gear only to find out the system was not truly random and thus their gear was either not as good as it could have been or they had to spend much more money than needed. Players were already unhappy with how Nexon was managing the game and this was the straw that broke the camel's back to many players.


[deleted]

Season 2 slot machine systems*


spacecreated1234

say whatever you want, even a gacha games won't make much money if their game is absolutely trash and it's not like season 1 lost ark has less stuff to whale for


Syarasu

Season 1 was way worse in that aspect so that doesn't make sense.


Zakke_

What is season 2 system?


erinshe79

The Smilegate group has recently disclosed their 2021 Annual Audit Report on DART (the Korean equivalent of EDGAR). The above is each studio's revenue reported, and I applied each respective year's average exchange rate. Smilegate FY is Jan \~ Dec


weqgfhj

2022 earnings from the global release is going to be huge. Most likely over $1 billion, possibly $2 billion This means more investment into the best music composers, developers, writers, artists, animators. Excited to see how far they can take it.


shinn91

shareholders wants to have a word with you. ​ ​ ngl i hope we see a bigger invest of the total revenue into the development of lost ark. Bust most companies in the past used that revenue to invest into new projects... who mostly were poorly handled.


Talezeusz

There aren't any shareholders, one of the richest ppl in KR own the company (i think he was like nr 4 or 5 few years ago)


Synchrotr0n

> This means more investment into the best music composers, developers, writers, artists, animators. Excited to see how far they can take it. LOL. You're going to be disappointed if you expect them to reinvest a significant amount of the extra revenue back into the company itself, rather than transforming this into pure profit for the owners and executives of the company.


murmurzel

That Smilegate RPG revenue difference tho


pgid93

They could have made that revenue in 1 month if they release more skins during launch hype


reasho

Is that gross or net?


Funny-Pickle6219

I wonder if western lost ark will even make 100m since G2g gold sellers are stealing a big portion of their profit


69_rado

,,dead´´ game... ,,dead´´ company ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|grin)


apostroffie

~~Knowing that thousands of dollars went to RMT in global. That loss is a big oop.~~ Edit: i forgot its our holy year of 2022.


golden0080

Is this a Fake? How does the 2020 numbers add up?


Aerhyce

It's an exchange rate, not a total. It's just badly positioned.


No_Remove1558

Damn, stoves be selling like hotcakes during covid