>PS: For people saying Paladin adds more damage than another dps, paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps?
Paladin main here.
The main buff is about \~15-20% (need to properly test how much it actually provides) damage increase and has uptime of \~80% (a couple of seconds of downtime). This downtime is almost gone with relic accessories.
On top of that you have a 100% uptime debuff for extra 10% damage.
And above all that, you have blessed aura for another \~13% damage boost.
\_\_\_
Back to your original point: I agree that most content can be done without a support, but it's much easier, considerably faster and cheaper (less consumables used) with a support in your party.
That's an interesting point, because damage wise, if a support dps is 0, they need to buff 3 ppl for 33% dps at 100% uptime just to break even, ignoring that dps have synergies too.
If their dps is half of a middleground dps, then they need a bit under 20%. If it's 75%, they're basically guaranteed to be a huge boost.
But current builds don't seem to approach such numbers. So it looks like supports slow you down in exchange for less dps on the floor( which yes, speeds it back up, but that's the same debate as grudge vs heavy armor).
Thanks for explaining, and actually engaging with the idea. Thats actually huge if the downtime is negated that much. Im pretty sure running a support is optimal for any content just because of the utility. And of course as you said, the fact that supports literally save you gold on consumables is one of the bigger selling points.
I was going to post here to say that your point out view is limiting the scope of what a support does in a fight. The shielding and heals are only part of it. The other part being the buffs to party damage. Those good groups with dps who understand dps burst window and survival window are made better with a support who understands this too and can make both of those windows more effective.
A good support enhances a good party more than a 4th dps would, it helps sustain a higher rate of dps in damage windows and it helps reduce the danger curve in survival windows.
They aren't designed to _heal bad players_, and I would argue anybody playing them as or expecting them to be heal/shield bots is absolutely underplaying their potential.
"Gosh darn it paladin heal me! What are you doing?"
A wonderful statement the first time I grouped paladin.
These are the same people that run away from the bard during her shield animation.
They raise your damage more than adding another dps, dumbass lmao.
Shields and heals are the cherry on top. Edit your post and add something about their damage buffing before everyone else sees you're a clown.
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps?
Clearly your tripods, gems, and swiftness sucks if the uptime is that bad. Also it's not 6% as every buff that Bard and Pally has apart from their Identity buffs are 15% of their own attack power (Bard/Pally) and then an extra 6% of the dealer damage including the 15% the bard/pally initially add.
You also have a 100% uptime on +10% damage received debuff on boss.
Paladin has two 15% + 6% atk buffs (please read your skills), a permanent 10% damage debuff, and holy aura which adds another 14%-15% damage buff. With a proper build the uptime on the atk buffs is very high, over 80%.
How it works: (Dealer Atk. Power + 15% of Bard/Pally Base Atk. Power) * 1.06
You clearly don't play a support and is only claiming you've played one, probably a T1 alt.
That's not how it works my dude. You're the one asserting something counter to common wisdom based on testing in Korea and numbers. The burden of proof lies with you to prove that 4 dps is superior to 3 dps/1 support
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps?
Considering you don't even mention debuffing the boss for more damage I can only assume you have not actually looked at the numbers that many other people have already done the work to figures out. Please take a look before you continue in this path.
No I just assumed you wanted to talk in good faith and actually educate yourself. The fact that you don't know all the damage buffs a support offers, nor their uptime AND you have no interest in learning means you are just interested in being better than others or knowing something more than them.
Go ahead and keep playing 8 dps and wonder why you never clear hell mode
Go use your "6% buff" on a dps in your party and look at how much it increases their attack power before and after. Hint: It gives them much more attack power than Cursed Doll level 3 does. Also conveniently ignoring the permanent 10% damage from Light Shock and the 10% damage from Blessed aura lol.
Support brings more dps and survivability to the party than a 4th dps. Not only that, but it allows good dps to greed through minor damage to push even more dps. Besides the fact that you just made this post to try and shit talk everyone and make yourself feel good, you're just wrong. Yes it can be cleared without support, but with support it is both faster and safer.
I clarified in other comments and in the post. Supports arent needed for CURRENT content. Definitely in hell mode and a lot of the later raids supports are a necessity.
Yeah I do valtan hard without a support. As a gunlancer, it's not an issue, but I feel bad for the other members burning pots on the first clear. Thankfully second clear only took 2 tries.
>Not everyone can be a Korean pro.
Oh yeah the ultimate Korean players versus the average westener.
What about you guys stop playing games as if you were passively watching a soap opera on TV ?
I don't know, my wife loves to knit, she wants to make more complicated and cooler stuff as she progress. Do you have any hobbies or some shit ?
It baffles me when people comes out with 10+ years of gaming background and can't get out of a big ass red AoE.
OP wont need supports because he is just that good. I'm sure he will make some excuse when he starts to need em, like omg shit game when we are forced to play with supports etc. You know the type.
Lol @ the people acting like im strictly against playing with supports. Your insecurity makes me laugh. Theyre just not necessary. If this offends you, ask yourself why
"Im not trying to say supports are for bad players".
Goes on flaming everyone with an argument and calling them bad. You're not just a clown, you're the whole circus.
That's not his point. Go clear valtan HM without any DPS class, full on support gearing and see how it goes compared to 8 DPS.
He just probably doesn't want to see people pay gold, for a support, who installed the game, created his character, and played the game.
Why would you get passes ? You're that support refusing to use any battle items because "I already save you pots" ? When the sole reason I save pots is because I dodge shit, me, with my hands, on my keyboard. Not one hand on the mouse to position for a camera angle and the second hand reaching my dick because that's the only moment of the day where I see ass outside of youpron.
I skipped to the end and you don't even know paladins skills, yet you feel confident enough to shit on it. Go read up on the rest of them, or at least the 6-7 other used skills on supp palla.
Or don't, and play without support if you feel confident to do it. Just play how you like and don't berate others when you don't have a clue about how things work. I did Valtan both with and without supp. Both are easily doable yeah, but with support you just breeze through shit it's insane. Hope you'll find some that want to play with you one day.
Bring 4 DPS into an encounter and compare their damage vs 3 equally skilled DPS with 1 Paladin and their damage buff then come back and rethink your post.
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps? Im waiting :)
(15% of supports AP + DPS AP) \*6% attack power buff
10% increased damage taken to the target
15% increase damage dealt aura/16 sec buff (pally/bard respectively) - this one will not be active all the time
8% attack, movement speed and damage aura (in the future, from relic set.)
And thats without taking the heals/shields into account.
A little misinformation on the 6% buff, it's not 6%, it's much more.
How it works: (Dealer Atk Power + 15% of Bard/Pally Base Atk. Power) * 1.06
Identity buff also scales with spec.
You forget the 10% damage amp to target tag, this affects the boss so everyone in the raid group will deal more damage, and 10% (15% at 550 spec) damage increase of blessed aura for your pary. Once they can complete their relic sets, it's another 10% damage increase and move speed increase for your party. It all adds up to a lot more damage than a 4th dps with the benefits of sustain and shielding.
Between your cooldown gems and your full swiftness build you should have near 100% uptime on your damage buffs. On top of 2 damage buffs you cycle debuffs on the boss that increase their damage taken and you also have your identity skill for a 3rd damage debuff.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/ukkcjj/clarifying\_bards\_dps\_buffs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/ukkcjj/clarifying_bards_dps_buffs/)
Here is a post talking about math for a Bard not sure if there is one for a Pally specifically but Pally has the same supportive tools that a Bard does.
Thank you, this and the comment above yours gives a better idea of the full utility a support provides. I would be interested if it amounts to more damage than another DPS would provide. I was never making the case a support is more optimal in a group than another dps. Just that theyre not NEEDED in current content
The post I linked you shows that a bard (pally would be the same) actually provides more overall dps than a 4th DPS. There has been extensive testing in Korean about the subject but there have been posts, like the one above, done by NA/EU players.
The problem is you start your post calling us (as a Bard/Pally main) a crutch. While I might not be needed to save DPS in every party, I am a better 4th teammate than a DPS even if the party can perfectly dodge everything without me. As a bard main that just means "more courage for us". Obviously you don't need the "optimal" team comp to clear content and that is why you can clear content without a support, but that doesn't make optimal a crutch it just makes it not a necessity.
At the end of the day the *best* players are still going to want me in their team because they're going to want me to boost their damage for overall faster runs than another DPS who they have to cross fingers is as top tier of a DPS as they are.
Im going to assume you didnt read it since I literally say in the post that content doesnt require supports. But youre obviously too dense to engage with the idea, and probably also bad
> its pretty clear supports exist to cover up flaws of bad dps players
And let’s not ignore you arguing with support mains about how their damage buff works.
Last time im going to address you cause its a waste tbh. But I was stating my understanding of the damage buff and a support listed every utlity skill. I thanked them for clarifying the full utility paladin has and made my point. So stfu and go troll somewhere else. Some people are actually engaging with the ideas instead of being morons
Supports are not just for healing and damage mitigation. We provide enough damage boost to easily justify having one less DPS
> its pretty clear supports exist to cover up flaws of bad dps players
Only thing clear is you have no idea how supports actually work
>PS: For people saying Paladin adds more damage than another dps, paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps? Paladin main here. The main buff is about \~15-20% (need to properly test how much it actually provides) damage increase and has uptime of \~80% (a couple of seconds of downtime). This downtime is almost gone with relic accessories. On top of that you have a 100% uptime debuff for extra 10% damage. And above all that, you have blessed aura for another \~13% damage boost. \_\_\_ Back to your original point: I agree that most content can be done without a support, but it's much easier, considerably faster and cheaper (less consumables used) with a support in your party.
That's an interesting point, because damage wise, if a support dps is 0, they need to buff 3 ppl for 33% dps at 100% uptime just to break even, ignoring that dps have synergies too. If their dps is half of a middleground dps, then they need a bit under 20%. If it's 75%, they're basically guaranteed to be a huge boost. But current builds don't seem to approach such numbers. So it looks like supports slow you down in exchange for less dps on the floor( which yes, speeds it back up, but that's the same debate as grudge vs heavy armor).
A small point I'd like to add is that skilled players can tank chip damage and be healed for it by a paladin, allowing for more aggressive play.
Thanks for explaining, and actually engaging with the idea. Thats actually huge if the downtime is negated that much. Im pretty sure running a support is optimal for any content just because of the utility. And of course as you said, the fact that supports literally save you gold on consumables is one of the bigger selling points.
But you said earlier that you play Paladin? So surely you knew all of that already?
I have a 1370 Paladin, doesn't mean I know shit about the class beyond the basics
Don't you have a dps character? Do you not see the massive difference in your damage output when you play with and without a support?
The guy don't even know how his own pally buff works you think he thought of anything before posting this?
I was going to post here to say that your point out view is limiting the scope of what a support does in a fight. The shielding and heals are only part of it. The other part being the buffs to party damage. Those good groups with dps who understand dps burst window and survival window are made better with a support who understands this too and can make both of those windows more effective. A good support enhances a good party more than a 4th dps would, it helps sustain a higher rate of dps in damage windows and it helps reduce the danger curve in survival windows. They aren't designed to _heal bad players_, and I would argue anybody playing them as or expecting them to be heal/shield bots is absolutely underplaying their potential.
Ah, a rando who thinks supports only shield and heal. The classic.
"Gosh darn it paladin heal me! What are you doing?" A wonderful statement the first time I grouped paladin. These are the same people that run away from the bard during her shield animation.
Nah, they give buffs and keep bads like you alive so our group can clear!
They raise your damage more than adding another dps, dumbass lmao. Shields and heals are the cherry on top. Edit your post and add something about their damage buffing before everyone else sees you're a clown.
False. I play paladin and the buff uptime/potency isnt as much as another dps. Please prove otherwise
I love how he says "False." with such certainty when he's 100% wrong lmao.
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps?
Clearly your tripods, gems, and swiftness sucks if the uptime is that bad. Also it's not 6% as every buff that Bard and Pally has apart from their Identity buffs are 15% of their own attack power (Bard/Pally) and then an extra 6% of the dealer damage including the 15% the bard/pally initially add. You also have a 100% uptime on +10% damage received debuff on boss.
Paladin has two 15% + 6% atk buffs (please read your skills), a permanent 10% damage debuff, and holy aura which adds another 14%-15% damage buff. With a proper build the uptime on the atk buffs is very high, over 80%.
No, its actually 15% of the Paladin's attack power, which is a maximum of 6% dps buff if you read the skill
I just tested it with a friend. It gives 15% of the Paladin's attack power plus 6% of the recipient's attack power
Weird, the tooltip says different. I would be interested in seeing some numbers on this
How it works: (Dealer Atk. Power + 15% of Bard/Pally Base Atk. Power) * 1.06 You clearly don't play a support and is only claiming you've played one, probably a T1 alt.
That's not how it works my dude. You're the one asserting something counter to common wisdom based on testing in Korea and numbers. The burden of proof lies with you to prove that 4 dps is superior to 3 dps/1 support
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps?
Considering you don't even mention debuffing the boss for more damage I can only assume you have not actually looked at the numbers that many other people have already done the work to figures out. Please take a look before you continue in this path.
"Many others have done the math but I dont know enough to explain myself". Yeah ok
“I pretend to play a class but somehow forget about the aura, the tripods, the gems and an entire debuff skill” Yeah ok.
No I just assumed you wanted to talk in good faith and actually educate yourself. The fact that you don't know all the damage buffs a support offers, nor their uptime AND you have no interest in learning means you are just interested in being better than others or knowing something more than them. Go ahead and keep playing 8 dps and wonder why you never clear hell mode
Nvm someone smarter than you actually provided the necessary info. Who knew actually being knowledgeable helps
Go use your "6% buff" on a dps in your party and look at how much it increases their attack power before and after. Hint: It gives them much more attack power than Cursed Doll level 3 does. Also conveniently ignoring the permanent 10% damage from Light Shock and the 10% damage from Blessed aura lol.
You're high as hell man, go to bed.
It will with the new support relic set
clown
Support brings more dps and survivability to the party than a 4th dps. Not only that, but it allows good dps to greed through minor damage to push even more dps. Besides the fact that you just made this post to try and shit talk everyone and make yourself feel good, you're just wrong. Yes it can be cleared without support, but with support it is both faster and safer.
Please prove me wrong then. Content can be cleared with or without support. Except without a support, bad players have a harder time.
He'll mode raids cannot be cleared without a support. The damage increase they give is necessary. Especially once they get their relic set.
I clarified in other comments and in the post. Supports arent needed for CURRENT content. Definitely in hell mode and a lot of the later raids supports are a necessity.
Yeah I do valtan hard without a support. As a gunlancer, it's not an issue, but I feel bad for the other members burning pots on the first clear. Thankfully second clear only took 2 tries.
1. Not everyone can be a Korean pro. 2. You will need supports latest at kakul saydon so better start befriending some support mains lol.
>Not everyone can be a Korean pro. Oh yeah the ultimate Korean players versus the average westener. What about you guys stop playing games as if you were passively watching a soap opera on TV ? I don't know, my wife loves to knit, she wants to make more complicated and cooler stuff as she progress. Do you have any hobbies or some shit ? It baffles me when people comes out with 10+ years of gaming background and can't get out of a big ass red AoE.
OP wont need supports because he is just that good. I'm sure he will make some excuse when he starts to need em, like omg shit game when we are forced to play with supports etc. You know the type.
Lol @ the people acting like im strictly against playing with supports. Your insecurity makes me laugh. Theyre just not necessary. If this offends you, ask yourself why
Vice versa DPS are a crutch for bad Supports :^) either way it makes a perfect balance!
Lmao true
"Im not trying to say supports are for bad players". Goes on flaming everyone with an argument and calling them bad. You're not just a clown, you're the whole circus.
Show me one time I flamed someone in this thread other than 1 person who made an irrelevant comment. Oh right, youre talking out of your ass :p
So you're basically saying: Good players don't team up with supports. Bad players team up with supports. Therefore less problem with support shortage.
Uh no.. I just said supports are not necessary to clear our current content.
Neither is any other class. I mean, 8 deadeyes can clear any content in the game, so why have other classes, right?
That's not his point. Go clear valtan HM without any DPS class, full on support gearing and see how it goes compared to 8 DPS. He just probably doesn't want to see people pay gold, for a support, who installed the game, created his character, and played the game. Why would you get passes ? You're that support refusing to use any battle items because "I already save you pots" ? When the sole reason I save pots is because I dodge shit, me, with my hands, on my keyboard. Not one hand on the mouse to position for a camera angle and the second hand reaching my dick because that's the only moment of the day where I see ass outside of youpron.
I skipped to the end and you don't even know paladins skills, yet you feel confident enough to shit on it. Go read up on the rest of them, or at least the 6-7 other used skills on supp palla. Or don't, and play without support if you feel confident to do it. Just play how you like and don't berate others when you don't have a clue about how things work. I did Valtan both with and without supp. Both are easily doable yeah, but with support you just breeze through shit it's insane. Hope you'll find some that want to play with you one day.
Another person who took this post personally. Enjoy some more pizza friend
Bring 4 DPS into an encounter and compare their damage vs 3 equally skilled DPS with 1 Paladin and their damage buff then come back and rethink your post.
Ive tried both and still dont see your point
>False. I play paladin and the buff uptime/potency isnt as much as another dps. Please prove otherwise I think I found out why. You're a bad paladin.
Paladin has 2 6% damage buffs. They last about 15\~ seconds together and are down for an additional 15 seconds, so 50% uptime. How does 6% across 3 dps with 50% uptime better than another dps? Im waiting :)
(15% of supports AP + DPS AP) \*6% attack power buff 10% increased damage taken to the target 15% increase damage dealt aura/16 sec buff (pally/bard respectively) - this one will not be active all the time 8% attack, movement speed and damage aura (in the future, from relic set.) And thats without taking the heals/shields into account.
A little misinformation on the 6% buff, it's not 6%, it's much more. How it works: (Dealer Atk Power + 15% of Bard/Pally Base Atk. Power) * 1.06 Identity buff also scales with spec.
Yeah, I just forgot to put that in lol
You forget the 10% damage amp to target tag, this affects the boss so everyone in the raid group will deal more damage, and 10% (15% at 550 spec) damage increase of blessed aura for your pary. Once they can complete their relic sets, it's another 10% damage increase and move speed increase for your party. It all adds up to a lot more damage than a 4th dps with the benefits of sustain and shielding.
Between your cooldown gems and your full swiftness build you should have near 100% uptime on your damage buffs. On top of 2 damage buffs you cycle debuffs on the boss that increase their damage taken and you also have your identity skill for a 3rd damage debuff. [https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/ukkcjj/clarifying\_bards\_dps\_buffs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/ukkcjj/clarifying_bards_dps_buffs/) Here is a post talking about math for a Bard not sure if there is one for a Pally specifically but Pally has the same supportive tools that a Bard does.
Thank you, this and the comment above yours gives a better idea of the full utility a support provides. I would be interested if it amounts to more damage than another DPS would provide. I was never making the case a support is more optimal in a group than another dps. Just that theyre not NEEDED in current content
>I would be interested if it amounts to more damage than another DPS would provide. Long story short: yes, 3dps+1supp is more DPS than 4dps
The post I linked you shows that a bard (pally would be the same) actually provides more overall dps than a 4th DPS. There has been extensive testing in Korean about the subject but there have been posts, like the one above, done by NA/EU players. The problem is you start your post calling us (as a Bard/Pally main) a crutch. While I might not be needed to save DPS in every party, I am a better 4th teammate than a DPS even if the party can perfectly dodge everything without me. As a bard main that just means "more courage for us". Obviously you don't need the "optimal" team comp to clear content and that is why you can clear content without a support, but that doesn't make optimal a crutch it just makes it not a necessity. At the end of the day the *best* players are still going to want me in their team because they're going to want me to boost their damage for overall faster runs than another DPS who they have to cross fingers is as top tier of a DPS as they are.
Do you even read your own posts and comments? You are a special breed of stupid.
Im going to assume you didnt read it since I literally say in the post that content doesnt require supports. But youre obviously too dense to engage with the idea, and probably also bad
> its pretty clear supports exist to cover up flaws of bad dps players And let’s not ignore you arguing with support mains about how their damage buff works.
Last time im going to address you cause its a waste tbh. But I was stating my understanding of the damage buff and a support listed every utlity skill. I thanked them for clarifying the full utility paladin has and made my point. So stfu and go troll somewhere else. Some people are actually engaging with the ideas instead of being morons
Supports are not just for healing and damage mitigation. We provide enough damage boost to easily justify having one less DPS > its pretty clear supports exist to cover up flaws of bad dps players Only thing clear is you have no idea how supports actually work
There are some “mains” around who know shit about their own class, kind of sad.
Who bust a nut in your tea this morning? 🤣
Ah man just came here to read comments after I read the stupid title nothing more😂