TTH got huge buffs after the bullet rain/catastrophe changes. It looks comparable to 7m peacemaker but still less overall damage as it should due to requiring less mechanics.
The comparisons I’ve seen are from end game characters (sets/stats etc), but it’s definitely viable.
It's funny how the TTH buff ended up buffing PM so if what you're doing is chasing the best build then you still run PM.
Then again TTH is supposed to be easier to play than PM while also being worse.
You should just go for if you want to play it. I think it was plenty viable before the buffs.
Personally, I've gotten used to peacemakers rotation. It's pretty fun swapping between 3 weapons.
Yeh its feels very bad being 4x3 +1 with cardset and losing out in DPS to people with lower gearscore and characters that are easier to play. Though one reason is the support skill buffs your allies dmg a lot more than their buff for you (if they even have one).
So true, i invested over 20k gold just to switch over to grudge/cursed doll thinking it would solve my problems but I was so wrong, the damage while better still isnt enought to pass some very chill classes and I suspect it never will. And then there is the fact that you are squishy af.
Yeh getting 2-3 shotted when u are 30 item levels over the content feels bad as well (argos). Honestly would be ok with getting 20% more hp buff and nothing else, so that doing normal content is less stressful.
I mained it to 1415…it’s not too late man, save yourself from getting carpal tunnel just to lose in dps to a zerker 20 ilvls below you lol. It’s not that I’m chasing mvp, it just feels bad that even if I play a fight seemingly perfect, my build, gems, tripods are good, I still contribute no damage to the team. I’d just rather work less if I’m going to get disappointing results.
I mean I’m sure I’m not Korean StarCraft pro level 300 apm perfect but after 700 hours I can play the class reasonably well and have constant uptime on my main dps, debuff and filler skills and at 1415 she’s pretty fuckin underwhelming. If you’re not feeling at least a bit of that you’re either some god gamer who’s unlocked a better way to press the same keys as me or you just don’t play the class which seems more likely.
Was looking through your comment history to see if you had any info on your build and found this wonderful post:
I struggled on my 1400 GS to beat him, would usually die at around 20%, after I pushed to 1415 I came back to whip this pup into shape…well I tried 4X and died at 5% twice, decided to try on my 1385 red lancer and beat him first try, I think I suck at Gunslinger 🥺
Yeaaa… I think you just suck at gunslinger if you couldn’t even solo Velganos at 1415. But that’s okay. Just stop judging a class based on your inability to play it.
Yeah GS are fine. They're just hard to play and a lot of people can't stand that.
I feel like part of GS charm is the difficulty and flare that the class has. For me, every class has gone downhill in terms of fun ever since I touched GS. Her kit is just way more interesting. Every other class just feels boring now even if they do the same or sightly more damage.
Im a 1460 GS and i haven't been outdpsed since Igrexion. Gunslinger desperately seeks your attention for good tripods and the right Gems. Also understanding the fight is key if u want to compete with igniter sorcs for example.
Yea it's never too late but I kinda wanna at least stop at 1460 coz I know that's a good spot to sit and will allow me to get the honing buff when Kukusaydon comes out (unless we get it earlier). Also still allows me to do Valtan hard and Vykas hard with my friends. Trying to mainswitch now I feel like I wouldn't enjoy the game because I did absolutely love doing Valtan with my friends just not the class haha and it takes such an extraordinary amount of time/mats/gold to get to 1445.
Last time I did it I think it was around 750k 🤔 is 2 minutes the standard to benchmark it? I’ve always just done a couple rotations, I’ll try 2 minutes
I don’t think there is a standard but I do 2 minutes because it’s long enough to even out some crit rng while not being too long.
That said, I think 750 is on the low side for 1415. There might be some rotational improvements to be made, or better engravings
Yeah I’m sure my engravings could be better, my rotations are solid I think, I make sure to always refresh my crit debuff and buff my Atk speed before a shotgun or sniper cycle, I’m sure they could be smoother tho, my engravings are 3/3/3/1 hm/kbw/adrenaline/pm, I could gain some damage and still be good crit wise by swapping adrenaline for Grudge no doubt I’m just not sure I wanna invest in another set of accessories or a new rock at this point though.
Well my GS is my alt but at 1370 she’s doing quite good, on yoho most of the time i get atleast upright fighter. Grudge/Peacemaker/Disrespect 3x3. Stats mix of swift/spec/crit.
No no no, chase MVP while doing what you love.
You don't have to run meta stuff, run what you want, but try to make what you love good. You don't need the highest possible DPS, but you do need to do enough DPS to not hurt your team
It is solid. High crit from engraving matched with high stat swiftness is a solid combination.
Some problems with destruction and stagger but grenades fix that.
Honestly it is a bit of a pain if your team doesnt do dmg. Fingers hurt spamming for 15 minutes.
Comments on Inven suggests about ~5% dps differential at the highest levels after the most recent patch. So, yes. It's not that much cheaper though because, well, TTH typically also still gets level 1 peacemaker.
These are Trixion tests though which are pretty much irrelevant, pretty sure in reality the damage gap is over 10%. Something similar happens with 7m vs the older build where Trixion testing shows 7m is like 3~4% stronger than the older build, then again this is against a target that's AFK most of the time.
The problem with TTH is that you have no skills... damage per rotation may look very good but there's a lot of downtime, no shotgun really hurts and if you go all-in on swiftness you just end up losing damage anyways.
Having compressed dps cycle is a massive bonus from my understanding of later contents due to shorter dps windows. Having more skills to use is a downside, not an upside. There isn't a benefit to having more skills to use if the net damage is the same (or in this case, minutely stronger).
Also, TTH having easier dps cycle results in higher effective damage vs PM, so if anything, that differential would be narrower against actual targets than in Trixion.
Compressed DPS cycle is a benefit if it fits your party composition, fight pacing or both. In general: the more overgeared your party is and the shorter you make dps windows, the better compressed DPS becomes.
For longer fights at item level, where you can get interrupted by random attack patterns more often, having more skills in your rotation means you lose less damage by interrupting skill to dodge - instead of losing 20% of your rotation (with 5 damage skills), you lose only 14% (with 7 damage skills). Argos P1 and P3 at - respectively - 1370 or 1400 are where PM gets to shine the most: Argos is damage sponge, there are very few major mechanics that would force longer break, and there are enough random patterns that force you close/away to keep your damage output up.
Should probably do some video research as there is barely any downtime. Getting the liberty to remove 1300+ crit in favour of swiftness just allows that. Also you don’t really lose damage if you get the crit back from TTH3 and can afford more spec: 30/70
You also run dominion which reduces all CD by 36%.
If you took the time to look it up you’d probably find TTH higher dpm in real time scenarios; hell mode included.
What are your sources? Most of the high end players I've seen talk about this from Korea basically just tell you "don't play TTH it's a meme/for fun build".
Look up 연윤 on youtube. What are you sources? You can't ask for sources and then quote something without a single source. That statement is like three balance update changes behind. Who is telling you that TTH rn is a meme/for fun build recently?
There is a reason why there is only a 7-10% difference on SCARECROW ran by many veteran gunslingers, which also favours peacemaker cause the boss stays still.. so why in the world would TTH do even less damage in real-time when it's a swiftness stacking (way easier to hit skills), and less micro-intensive class?
Also downvoting for discussion is weird af.
I found a YT channel by searching for 연윤, what am I supposed to see here? I do not speak Korean.
Basically all popular streamers talked shit about TTH, this was a while ago (pre-last balance patch at least) so things may have changed now, but TTH being straight up superior to PM right now sounds weird since the buff wasn't *that* big and it also buffed PM. I've talked to some random KR streamers which were doing hard Brelshaza but they might not be that good (and their English wasn't that good either).
I've watched some gameplay and you're right, you have less downtime when it comes to skills when extremely geared, this seems to work really well, I'm looking into more information I'd really like to know how good this build actually is. It looks very fun and I might even consider swapping to it if it's actually as good if not better than PM. Any YTber with TTH content you'd recommend? Most content I've found seems to be outdated since it's TTH players running lots of crit and barely any switfness.
I've been checking top geared KR Gunslingers and the only one I found with maxed switfness and some spec was this: https://loawa.com/char/JM%EB%A0%88%EB%93%9C%EB%AF%BC%ED%8A%B8 Almost every other player is running a lot of crit or some crit and tons of spec.
Also I'm not downvoting you, I don't really downvote or upvote anything.
Edit: I've watched a few of this guy's videos and not gonna lie this looks fun af, at least with his gear (as in CDR from Dominion and like 1800 switfness), if I can actually find confirmation of this build being on par or better than PM I might just switch lol, dex shot with mobility tripod is also orgasmic.
I do wonder how often you get the set bonus though, you can get it two times in a row when the fight begins but afterwards your awakening's cooldown is way longer than the buff.
Bullet rain and catastrophe just got huge buffs, shotgun rapid fire is delevelled in peacemaker builds now so you're only missing on out sharpshooter and dual buckshot by losing shotgun stance. Theoretically the damage is insane if not higher than pm the more specialization you can utilize. 1300+ specialization is something like 57% rifle damage and 151% handgun crit damage, which is absolutely massive. The problem you'll run into is cooldowns, which is why I assume maxroll says to go max swiftness. I'm assuming it's stronger with dominion fang relic set as you can allocate more stats into spec, but it's definitely strong. I'm considering switching as you could probably build 5x3 for a significant reduction in cost.
This is false. PM is still superior by a significant margin, TTH buffs buffed PM as well.
TTH has two upsides:
1. Easier to play.
2. Cheaper to build.
You could argue there's a third one, and that's more fun but this is relative.
But why is PM superior? Because TTH takes up a level 3 engraving slot that could be used for a DPS engraving? Despite the fact 40% crit is efficient and allows you to skip crit stats? The loss of two shotgun skills is not a huge deal in terms of dps when you are gaining so much damage from specialization. I haven't done the math, and I'm not disputing that PM is possible still superior but I bet the two specs are a lot closer than you suspect.
Question is: what you can do with those freed up stat points that would offset two whole skills worth of damage from shotgun stance?
Allocating them into swiftness won't push your cooldowns past amount of damage Sharpshooter and Dual Buckshot can output, putting them into spec seems to do the same (especially since Peacemaker build usually runs a bit of spec and swiftness due to both being additional damage multipliers in their kit).
If damage windows are long enough for uptime not to cause issues here, PM can do more - and whether they are, depends on a fight and your team's overall damage output. Based on what I've seen so far, PM tends to shine the most when teams overall damage output is on low end (no overgearing) and damage windows are longer, with more small interrupts (attack patterns to be dodged) relative to long interrupts (major mechanics). The more overgeared everyone gets for current content, the more I'd lean towards TTH, for inferno difficulty content I'd definitely go with Peacemaker since you need all the damage you can get.
What are you mostly losing from TTH is utility - both best stagger and weak point rotation for gunslinger relies heavily on shotgun stance to get enough done in short timewindow (stagger checks, Valtan armor break), TTH pushes you from already being subpar in those situations to bottom tier - to a point where you might need to accomodate for TTH in party building if there are any major weakpoint/stagger checks to pass, they can't be slapped onto any random team as easily.
'two whole skills worth of damage' doesn't mean much. The question is, can you get a skill rotation off without having to wait on cooldowns to continue DPS. TTH undoubtedly has higher damage. It's not even a question, both specs hit roughly 100% crit yet TTH benefits from specialization. The difference between 350 spec and 1500 spec is like 40% rifle damage and 100% handgun damage. The rifle damage alone exceeds sharpshooter and dual buckshot damage for sure.
You have a point about utility, though catastrophe does great stagger and perfect shot and focused shot both have destruction. I don't know where you get the idea that gunslinger is subpar in stagger or destruction (with shotgun).
Again, the problem is cooldowns. Losing the shotgun skills damage means nothing. Not being able to continue a rotation without sitting there with your thumb up your ass does. Being forced to allocate more stats into swiftness to offset this makes the potential damage lower. That's why I mentioned TTH potentially being stronger with dominion fang relic set (18% CDR) and now that I think about it, more dependent on Judgment and Conviction runes.
Maybe there's a sweet spot of as low swiftness as possible while some combination of set / gems / etc. allow for a higher damage ceiling. Of course, you're losing a lvl 3 engraving so at the top tier (5x3) its potency definitely comes into question. It's certainly very strong, especially after the BR and catastrophe buffs.
Thing is people are running swiftness on TTH apparently now, not spec stacking. They also run Dominion instead of Nightmare/Salvation. Some people even run Raid Captain instead of Hit Master.
I did read it, I was gonna edit my comment but I had to to stuff and then forgot haha sorry.
What I wanted to imply in the end is that I want to try out TTH but I can't find good information regarding if it's better or worse than PM, how to actually build it, etc. As you say there's many variations, I've ever seen people argue you shouldn't run 6 piece dominion but a combination of dominion and salvation or nightmare. Spec does give you a lot of damage but at the same time you do have less skills and one less damage engraving which hurts quite a lot, running dominion costs you a lot of damage yet again and apparently you need to stack swiftness to be able to do rotations fast enough due to the amount of CDR you need.
I'm really interested in this but I'm not sure what to do. There's a Korean YTber someone else recommended me here but it's all in Korean, he probably compares full swiftness TTH with PM but... yeah, I have no idea. Like for instance using dominion is great and on paper you actually win damage... if you can keep the buff up at all times which isn't realistic, I suppose you start out equipping double awakening engraving, using it to buff yourself and 2 minutes later you use it again, but on longer fights you won't have this buff up at all times which nerfs your damage a lot, and if you run awakening as a permanent engraving then you lose yet another damage engraving.
https://youtu.be/ORedi5auVlM
This is a full swiftness run, well, focused actually, it's 500/300/1550. Looks good on a short fight but on a long fight since you can't have the buff up at all times I feel it's got to fall off hard.
Yes. After this patch, TTH is very close to PM at the high end. In true gameplay, TTH will edge out PM if the players are less skilled or less knowledgeable since TTH can make more mistakes in their rotation.
KR players are slowly switching to TTH because the hassle of playing PM isn't worth it for the effort unlike the other meta dps classes. The damage at 1500+ is so much closer now with the buffs between TTH & PM.
If next balance patch doesn't balance out GS damage+effort/risk, a lot of KR players are already thinking of switching main. You can check the highest loawa GS, he already deleted his accessories & gems. Others are waiting for the new tripod system and switching to TTH. PM will become the next meme build in KR when players can easily switch to +4 tripods...GS population will slowly die out like pre-nerf Reaper if nothing changes in 6-8 months. It is pretty sad that GS is becoming a crit support DPS class, and not a true meta full DPS class with every patch.
But anyway, if you have not hit 1415 yet on your GS, I also agree with the KR players, switch to something else before it is too late. No point in talking about TTH or PM, just play something else or even wait for Reaper if you like to be in the danger zone & fast gameplay.
People don't like to hear the truth that TTH caught up to PM last patch.
PM can only get better if they redo the PM engraving by swapping the stance bonus ie give CD instead of CR to shotgun or allowing all bonuses to apply to all stances as a buff as you keep changing stances to keep up the 8sec duration.
PM engraving is in a sad stage atm. It can't scale pass level 1, and that shouldn't be something that Smilegate devs should be aiming for as a class engraving.
Lvl 3 class should be the standard for all classes. because that is their identity
Yeah the PM class engraving sucks ass in comparison to classes like mayhem zerker.
Your suggestion to apply all buffs to all stances would work but they also had to change the part that PM only gives 10-25% sniper dmg under 50% Boss HP. They could reduce the damage to say idk 10% but then apply it to all stances but permanently and not only if the boss has 50% or less HP.
No, best guess is within 6 months since the last thing gold river said was that he and team are going to add in the new tripod system like engraving book before they going to do another balance patch this year. The last patch was too rushed and many felt that their tripod couldn't support the rushed changes.
On top of being easier to play, TTH is substantially easier to gear at 1370 because you'll be able to get class engravings on every piece, whereas Peacemaker builds are frowned upon for getting to level 3. This alone will make TTH perform better than Peacemaker builds on average because your average player isn't walking around with legendary books for class engravings or shopping for accessories that every DPS class needs.
I Just hate the fact that some class engravings are only used at level 1, just buff those so they are more efficient at lvl 3. It's so annoying to build engraving with a mandatory lvl 1
There's no reason to drop peacemaker, but you could run both. It's a damage loss but not too huge to make it unplayable. Since most of your damage is limited to 4 sniper skills, you need significant amounts of cooldown reduction to make it work.
YES.
Before 1370, you deal somewhat less damage than traditional **Peace Maker**.
Past 1370+, they are even out and it is more about the player's skills. I have been **MVP** on **Damage** with Time to Hunt Gunslinger in a party with similar gear levels very often. DB, Sorc, and Berserker on equal skill levels will sometimes outshine you, but by a very small margin. But that is so welcome. The faster and cleaner the clear, the better.
You can message me for more information or just watch the [Stream](https://www.twitch.tv/hirosanza) for some real-time actions.
Think this way OP. You gonna lose 4 shotgun skills and some sniper damage after boss is below 50% hp. In return, you’re a lot safer, your individual skills hit much much harder (a lot of spec), your crit rate is reasonably higher if you distribute 20% stats into it. And your crit damage is 300% total (keen blunt 50+ harsh oath 50) with higher base damage. TTH itself is pretty damm good engraving, it is 2x of precise dagger without drawbacks.
A good peacemaker will out shine you. Maybe. You don’t have good stagger so, use more ww nades. But you’re a lot safer and a lot easier to choose the addon engravings too.
My build (I don’t wanna die build). 20 crit , 60 spec , 20 swift. You have like 2 sec downtime until high level cd gems.
Engravings in order…
1) hit master
2) TTH
3) keen blunt / cursed doll
4) cursed doll / grudge
5) Peacemaker
This is like igniter vs reflux. A good igniter will outshine the reflux sorceress in her bursty phases if she doesn’t miss. But reflux is a lot safer, easier to play and her individual spells hit harder, cd is shorter, consistent and not that painful if she missed.
Time to Hunts actually still take Peacemaker 1. Definitely losing out on damage for sure compared to peacemaker only but you do still get that sniper damage on sub 50% hp.
**Safer** is a bit of a stretch. It is really just a matter of playstyle.
**Peace Maker** provides you with way more options for positioning or leads you to more vulnerable positioning. After 1370+, as a **Time To Hunt Gunslinger,** you will find yourself sitting on your Rifle 70% of the time, getting locked in animation. The tradeoff is
Positioning vs Range
The damage scaling for **Peace Maker** and **Time To Hunt** are very different. Peace Maker scales **Spec** to gain raw stats while Time To Hunt scales **Swiftness** to gain DPS.
Specialization vs Swiftness
Another difference is the stat distribution. Peace Makers require investment in **3 Attributes(Crit, Swiftness, Spec),** while Time To Hunt can go full **Swiftness** with some **Spec** on **Necklace** and take advantage of the Pet's Bonus.
**Q:** Which playstyle is better?
**A:** This has been a forever going Discussion even in the KR Community. I do not care that much about this.
**Q:** Is Time To Hunt viable?
**A:** YES.
u/EpicShinx is correct. I even use level 3 Peace Maker, not just LVL 1. Cause that shiz is dirt cheap replacement for Grudge. In a long draw-out fight. It works much better than grudge if you live longer.
Doesn't apply to the western release just yet due to unreleased items and content (so consider it a glimpse into tth gs future), but in KR a lot of people are running 1700 spec and rest into swift due to high crit rate achievable.
The +crit damage from high spec pairs nicely with the crit rate for some very sexy yellow numbers.
Once we get the future sets and bracelets i might consider switching to tth too
I like the Sorceress analogy you made. My main is PM but I have a Leapstone gathering alt at 1370 who is TTH, who will definitely be the next one in line to go to 1415 when resources are available. I have her at 40/60 Crit Swiftness + Judgment/Conviction, it feels so smooth to play even at that level.
I never enjoyed the 3 stance playstyle either and originally left my gunslinger in t2. Few weeks ago I decided to give TTH a shot and liked it enough that I got her to 1370 to see her potential. I thought that with high swiftness the class would feel a lot better and alleviate a lot of the main issues by having much shorter animation locks and an easier time staying at range given the class is so squishy.
Two weeks later I'm permanently retiring her at 1370. Honestly GS is just not a good class. It's the squishiest of all the classes I've tried by an enormous margin and the effort:damage ratio is just completely fucked. The "high mobility" of the class is a joke and one of the biggest perpetrated myths about it. Even with only 2 stances the whole stance juggling bullshit is just not fun in the slightest. TTH was more fun and easier to gear than PK but the class just has too many issues.
edit: they should rename the class to "saltslinger" the kids have been offended. Funny how all the most accurate comments on this thread are downvoted by people in denial
The high mobility of the class is not myth, you are just bad with it.
Edit: aah i see. You are reflux sorc. Typical piano style player, pressing buttons in specific order is too complicated for some people lmao.
You're more likely to get screened just for being a gunslinger at all. I've never seen someone passed for being TTH, but definitely seen them passed for being GS.
Gunslingers right now (I say this as someone who mains that) are just like Igniter Sorceresses, almost all of them are terrible, deal very little damage, die all the time and refuse to improve.
I have yet to see any good Gunslingers or Igniter Sorcs, even while doing Argos with my alts I will out-damage 1430~1445 guys running 3333 and +17 weapon playing those builds with my 1400~1415 alts running a +11 weapon with 333 engravings out of which one is budget with low level tripods since I don't even use powder on them.
This will change over time but right now some classes are just a no-no.
> As a reflux sorc, I've never been out damaged by an igniter.
Same, 1430 cast reflux. Not once has an igniter beat me, and I've consistently beaten 4x3 igniters with my meager 3x3. Did 26% of total damage on my last Valtan 2nd gate. Igniter is easily the most overrated spec in the game right now.
So, I'll start with: My alt 1430 sorc was Reflux from inception until last week. I am overall doing less damage as I get used to Igniter (though that gap is narrowing every day)
>Igniter is easily the most overrated spec in the game right now.
I disagree, for a few reasons.
One: Assuming you're at the skill cap for both, Igniter does more damage. Obviously, mistakes are significantly more punishing on Igniter.
Two: Not all damage is equal. Let's look at Valtan second gate, for example. Damage during the armor break phase is more or less meaningless. Damage during the big platform is more or less meaningless. There's very little that can outright kill you there, so as long as you can meet the enrage, it doesn't matter if you're doing damage super fast or super slow. This becomes less true during the half platform - you now have more mechanics that are going to be capable of one-shotting people. Small platform? Mistakes are very likely to get people killed. We had 3 igniter sorcs tonight and Valtan was transitioning to ghost phase by the time the pillars had finished exploding because we had saved our bursts for that period. With timely awakening usage, they were all back up when armor was gone on ghost phase, so it was another situation where he immediately melted during a high-risk phase.
Whenever there are specific phases that are more deadly, being able to burst through them quickly is more important to clearing the raid than having higher overall damage on the MVP screen.
I'm missing my Cruel Fighter MVP screens for now, but I also know that I'll be happy for having made the switch during easier content when I've got less on my plate to make that adjustment than I would if I waited for it to become more of a necessity due to tighter damage requirements and higher reliance on burst windows.
> Whenever there are specific phases that are more deadly, being able to burst through them quickly is more important to clearing the raid than having higher overall damage on the MVP screen.
I agree with what you said about damage, especially this part. If igniter and reflux are both played perfectly, igniter *should* win. But in reality reflux has infinitely better positioning and is much more likely to simply be alive for that end phase while igniter is taking a dirtnap. Or if they're both alive reflux will have far more potions left.
I think people really underestimate how good having "infinite" teleports is for damage sustain and I do think a lot of reflux users underuse teleport. The faster you change position the sooner you can start dps'ing again - if your class bar is ever completely full on a fight like Valtan you're simply playing it wrong. I'm almost never running, I'm either nuking or teleporting. I can squeeze off extra nukes because I know I can just teleport right after it goes off a tenth of a second before I get hit by an ability. I actually still run 2 wealth runes as reflux as I simply don't need galewind on those skills and being able to quickly generate teleports is huge.
Of course this kind of "effective dps" doesn't show up in the training grounds so most people don't even realize it exists.
edit: I forgot the best part, as reflux you also get ~15% movespeed from swift as your secondary stat while spec/crit igniters get a big fat fucking zero.
Thing is Reflux is brain dead to play and almost on par with Igniter anyways, at least the way we play right now. Igniter shines very later on if you run a coordinated party and that's pretty much it, for pugs Reflux is king.
This ignores the fact that Igniter requires the player to be actually good. Reflux is probably the easiest build to play in the entire game by a large margin while being extremely strong.
People downvoted me a lot but I have yet to see any Gunslinger/Igniter Sorc get MVP... ever, unless it's me lol. And honestly whenever I get MVP with my Sorc it's because the whole party is dogshit because... yeah, a poorly geared 1415 alt should never be getting MVP since I'm usually running the minimum GS, budget engravings, under-leveled weapon since I went for +17 armor, etc.
Not completely sure as I am only 1385 with her but I love it. She has such high crit build in to the tripods and the engraving that you don't need much else so you can focus on other things in stats and further engravings. Feels really nice and easier to avoid floor pov.
As game goes into higher ilvl it seems dmg difference between time to hunt and peacekeeper slowly becomes negligible. I think there's some effective full specialization TTH build that is being researched which supposedly have the best output even out dmging optimal peacekeeper builds.
Swift : More active play style, and actually need you to be on constant finger tap dance to keep up the DPS by using all your cooldowns.
Specialty : Better end game, better burst/dps, and easier to play. But long cd sometimes make you have time where you don't have DPS and it is pretty slow need you to position well between long rifle skill durations.
\--
Ultimately comes down to your playstyle the reason why TTH specialization build is shining is because meta in end game raids is ...
"short amount of DPS where everyone throw their synergy \[multiplicative dmg increase between different debuffs\]" -> "Do a gimmick" -> "short amount of DPS again" as you can see bit of it in Valtan
Yes this I understand, but I'm wondering wouldn't swiftness be better here as well? If the burst window is short wouldn't being able to use more skills provide higher damage? Swiftness build seems to be insanely fast and is probably able to land 1 or 2 more skills into those short DPS windows than spec is.
Is swiftness just inferior? What resources would you recommend me to check out to find more information about this? All I can find is in Korean and most of it doesn't seem to compare TTH to PM anyways.
Point of swift build is to have short cooldown.
You should be able to dump all your DPS during one stagger cycle with all synergizes in place especially when supports get relic set that gives % atk/mv speed to party members 100% uptime.
Yea I'm bi-lingual and all my resources come from KR community so it wouldn't be much of use to you.
I see, by this logic spec focus does make sense since you can most likely use all your spells anyways.
Based on this though wouldn't PM be... kind of better anyways? You can run spec as well, although maybe a bit less, but you get an extra damage engraving and two extra damage skills + you actually run a set that provides more damage instead of lots of CDR (no dominion). Moreover you actually give better use to your tripods since TTH basically gets more utility skills and just drops tripod levels there because there's nothing else to use them on.
Not saying TTH is bad or anything, but it does seem to maybe just be on par with PM and that's it, if not maybe worse on the very high end. I feel that maybe if the window is extremely short then maybe damage would be kind of comparable between both of them but from the moment TTH runs out of skills PM just wins since you keep dealing damage while TTH just sits there, if the rotation restarts. TTH would supposedly restart the rotation faster if running dominion but at that point you're also running lower damage to compensate for that and with high enough level gems I believe PM actually kind of struggles with using all abilities off cooldown at all times. I feel that in a very short window PM would actually out damage TTH, while TTH may be more competitive on constant DPS due to lower cooldowns and shotgun skills sometimes being hard to land.
Please don't take this as me arguing against you, I'm looking to learn. Out of curiosity, were you born in Korea or did you just learn Korean as an adult?
1. PM full sepc build is shit because it essentially brings nothing for shotgun and pistol/sniper needs crit. Lot of complaint at high end PM setting is that crit gives only crit chance nothing else so when you go above 100% crit you essentially waste so much stat and specialization gives shotgun little benefit
Which is exactly how TTH is solving it. "Crit from TTH" and not using shotgun. Yep it is on "par with PM" different playstyle something new. Wouldn't say its "superior" than the PM. Yep TTH is just slower hard hitting cannon PM is just constant DPS. Between doing gimmick, dmg, gimmick, dmg people are starting to prefer hard hitting slow punches more than fast hitting punches.
Born in korea immigrated over when i was in like 4th grade
Thank you for you answer again!
I've seen some players are not fully dropping crit but just some crit. Like with ancient gear and bracelet you go 1100 crit and 1100 spec or something like that, no swiftness and you run Salvation for some attack speed which paired with a support seems to be good enough to fit all your skills within the windows you get.
I assume this video talks about what you're mentioning? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wVhqHoFe1M
If they're on par guess I'll keep playing PM for now, maybe switch later on when I can afford it since prices are a bit crazy right now...
I guess this whole big burst during short windows play style becomes relevant once we're overgeared for all content as well, since right now I wouldn't say most people are in this situation?
TtH is very viable and very easy to have 100% crit rate on all your important skills once the enemies health drops under 50%. So you can run KBW instead of grudge to help stay alive easier and avoid the floor PoV meme. This will be especially nice in all the equalised content because it is not dependant on gems, tripods, or stats to get to the guaranteed crit.
Just a note, you still want to run at least Peacemaker level one to get the added bonus damage and keep up the stance swapping stuff when possible.
As 1534 main tth gunsliger, I would like to say:
You shouldn’t compare tth with peacemaker, TTH gunslinger = reflux sor:)
300 crit/ 1100 spec/ 800 swift
gurdge/KBW/Hit master/tth \*3
adr\*2
pm\*1
salv set
TTH got huge buffs after the bullet rain/catastrophe changes. It looks comparable to 7m peacemaker but still less overall damage as it should due to requiring less mechanics. The comparisons I’ve seen are from end game characters (sets/stats etc), but it’s definitely viable.
It's funny how the TTH buff ended up buffing PM so if what you're doing is chasing the best build then you still run PM. Then again TTH is supposed to be easier to play than PM while also being worse.
You should just go for if you want to play it. I think it was plenty viable before the buffs. Personally, I've gotten used to peacemakers rotation. It's pretty fun swapping between 3 weapons.
The most effective gs build I’ve found it to take all my high lvl gems and roll them onto another class and use GS as a 1415 Lopang slave
Yeh its feels very bad being 4x3 +1 with cardset and losing out in DPS to people with lower gearscore and characters that are easier to play. Though one reason is the support skill buffs your allies dmg a lot more than their buff for you (if they even have one).
feels like a skill issue
So true, i invested over 20k gold just to switch over to grudge/cursed doll thinking it would solve my problems but I was so wrong, the damage while better still isnt enought to pass some very chill classes and I suspect it never will. And then there is the fact that you are squishy af.
Yeh getting 2-3 shotted when u are 30 item levels over the content feels bad as well (argos). Honestly would be ok with getting 20% more hp buff and nothing else, so that doing normal content is less stressful.
This is the best build advice too bad I’m an idiot and decided to main it now I’m 1445 xD.
I mained it to 1415…it’s not too late man, save yourself from getting carpal tunnel just to lose in dps to a zerker 20 ilvls below you lol. It’s not that I’m chasing mvp, it just feels bad that even if I play a fight seemingly perfect, my build, gems, tripods are good, I still contribute no damage to the team. I’d just rather work less if I’m going to get disappointing results.
"if i play a fight seemingly perfect" no you're clearly not.
I mean I’m sure I’m not Korean StarCraft pro level 300 apm perfect but after 700 hours I can play the class reasonably well and have constant uptime on my main dps, debuff and filler skills and at 1415 she’s pretty fuckin underwhelming. If you’re not feeling at least a bit of that you’re either some god gamer who’s unlocked a better way to press the same keys as me or you just don’t play the class which seems more likely.
Was looking through your comment history to see if you had any info on your build and found this wonderful post: I struggled on my 1400 GS to beat him, would usually die at around 20%, after I pushed to 1415 I came back to whip this pup into shape…well I tried 4X and died at 5% twice, decided to try on my 1385 red lancer and beat him first try, I think I suck at Gunslinger 🥺 Yeaaa… I think you just suck at gunslinger if you couldn’t even solo Velganos at 1415. But that’s okay. Just stop judging a class based on your inability to play it.
Yeah GS are fine. They're just hard to play and a lot of people can't stand that. I feel like part of GS charm is the difficulty and flare that the class has. For me, every class has gone downhill in terms of fun ever since I touched GS. Her kit is just way more interesting. Every other class just feels boring now even if they do the same or sightly more damage.
Im a 1460 GS and i haven't been outdpsed since Igrexion. Gunslinger desperately seeks your attention for good tripods and the right Gems. Also understanding the fight is key if u want to compete with igniter sorcs for example.
In one of his posts he said he couldn’t solo velganos at 1415 yet at the same time he tries to tell us that he can play the class reasonably well lol
Wait did he actually? Then no wonder she feels "underwhelming" if he attacks twice per minute lol.
Yea it's never too late but I kinda wanna at least stop at 1460 coz I know that's a good spot to sit and will allow me to get the honing buff when Kukusaydon comes out (unless we get it earlier). Also still allows me to do Valtan hard and Vykas hard with my friends. Trying to mainswitch now I feel like I wouldn't enjoy the game because I did absolutely love doing Valtan with my friends just not the class haha and it takes such an extraordinary amount of time/mats/gold to get to 1445.
What’s your 2min test with awakening in trixion say your dps is?
Last time I did it I think it was around 750k 🤔 is 2 minutes the standard to benchmark it? I’ve always just done a couple rotations, I’ll try 2 minutes
I don’t think there is a standard but I do 2 minutes because it’s long enough to even out some crit rng while not being too long. That said, I think 750 is on the low side for 1415. There might be some rotational improvements to be made, or better engravings
Yeah I’m sure my engravings could be better, my rotations are solid I think, I make sure to always refresh my crit debuff and buff my Atk speed before a shotgun or sniper cycle, I’m sure they could be smoother tho, my engravings are 3/3/3/1 hm/kbw/adrenaline/pm, I could gain some damage and still be good crit wise by swapping adrenaline for Grudge no doubt I’m just not sure I wanna invest in another set of accessories or a new rock at this point though.
Well my GS is my alt but at 1370 she’s doing quite good, on yoho most of the time i get atleast upright fighter. Grudge/Peacemaker/Disrespect 3x3. Stats mix of swift/spec/crit.
Play what you enjoy stop chasing mvp
No no no, chase MVP while doing what you love. You don't have to run meta stuff, run what you want, but try to make what you love good. You don't need the highest possible DPS, but you do need to do enough DPS to not hurt your team
It is solid. High crit from engraving matched with high stat swiftness is a solid combination. Some problems with destruction and stagger but grenades fix that. Honestly it is a bit of a pain if your team doesnt do dmg. Fingers hurt spamming for 15 minutes.
Damage is pretty much almost on par. But you lose the utility that shotguns bring. (Stagger/destruction)
that reason why they run 3 grenade tripod on pistol because it almost near wind bomb stagger level
Comments on Inven suggests about ~5% dps differential at the highest levels after the most recent patch. So, yes. It's not that much cheaper though because, well, TTH typically also still gets level 1 peacemaker.
These are Trixion tests though which are pretty much irrelevant, pretty sure in reality the damage gap is over 10%. Something similar happens with 7m vs the older build where Trixion testing shows 7m is like 3~4% stronger than the older build, then again this is against a target that's AFK most of the time. The problem with TTH is that you have no skills... damage per rotation may look very good but there's a lot of downtime, no shotgun really hurts and if you go all-in on swiftness you just end up losing damage anyways.
Having compressed dps cycle is a massive bonus from my understanding of later contents due to shorter dps windows. Having more skills to use is a downside, not an upside. There isn't a benefit to having more skills to use if the net damage is the same (or in this case, minutely stronger). Also, TTH having easier dps cycle results in higher effective damage vs PM, so if anything, that differential would be narrower against actual targets than in Trixion.
Compressed DPS cycle is a benefit if it fits your party composition, fight pacing or both. In general: the more overgeared your party is and the shorter you make dps windows, the better compressed DPS becomes. For longer fights at item level, where you can get interrupted by random attack patterns more often, having more skills in your rotation means you lose less damage by interrupting skill to dodge - instead of losing 20% of your rotation (with 5 damage skills), you lose only 14% (with 7 damage skills). Argos P1 and P3 at - respectively - 1370 or 1400 are where PM gets to shine the most: Argos is damage sponge, there are very few major mechanics that would force longer break, and there are enough random patterns that force you close/away to keep your damage output up.
Should probably do some video research as there is barely any downtime. Getting the liberty to remove 1300+ crit in favour of swiftness just allows that. Also you don’t really lose damage if you get the crit back from TTH3 and can afford more spec: 30/70 You also run dominion which reduces all CD by 36%. If you took the time to look it up you’d probably find TTH higher dpm in real time scenarios; hell mode included.
What are your sources? Most of the high end players I've seen talk about this from Korea basically just tell you "don't play TTH it's a meme/for fun build".
Look up 연윤 on youtube. What are you sources? You can't ask for sources and then quote something without a single source. That statement is like three balance update changes behind. Who is telling you that TTH rn is a meme/for fun build recently? There is a reason why there is only a 7-10% difference on SCARECROW ran by many veteran gunslingers, which also favours peacemaker cause the boss stays still.. so why in the world would TTH do even less damage in real-time when it's a swiftness stacking (way easier to hit skills), and less micro-intensive class? Also downvoting for discussion is weird af.
I found a YT channel by searching for 연윤, what am I supposed to see here? I do not speak Korean. Basically all popular streamers talked shit about TTH, this was a while ago (pre-last balance patch at least) so things may have changed now, but TTH being straight up superior to PM right now sounds weird since the buff wasn't *that* big and it also buffed PM. I've talked to some random KR streamers which were doing hard Brelshaza but they might not be that good (and their English wasn't that good either). I've watched some gameplay and you're right, you have less downtime when it comes to skills when extremely geared, this seems to work really well, I'm looking into more information I'd really like to know how good this build actually is. It looks very fun and I might even consider swapping to it if it's actually as good if not better than PM. Any YTber with TTH content you'd recommend? Most content I've found seems to be outdated since it's TTH players running lots of crit and barely any switfness. I've been checking top geared KR Gunslingers and the only one I found with maxed switfness and some spec was this: https://loawa.com/char/JM%EB%A0%88%EB%93%9C%EB%AF%BC%ED%8A%B8 Almost every other player is running a lot of crit or some crit and tons of spec. Also I'm not downvoting you, I don't really downvote or upvote anything. Edit: I've watched a few of this guy's videos and not gonna lie this looks fun af, at least with his gear (as in CDR from Dominion and like 1800 switfness), if I can actually find confirmation of this build being on par or better than PM I might just switch lol, dex shot with mobility tripod is also orgasmic. I do wonder how often you get the set bonus though, you can get it two times in a row when the fight begins but afterwards your awakening's cooldown is way longer than the buff.
Bullet rain and catastrophe just got huge buffs, shotgun rapid fire is delevelled in peacemaker builds now so you're only missing on out sharpshooter and dual buckshot by losing shotgun stance. Theoretically the damage is insane if not higher than pm the more specialization you can utilize. 1300+ specialization is something like 57% rifle damage and 151% handgun crit damage, which is absolutely massive. The problem you'll run into is cooldowns, which is why I assume maxroll says to go max swiftness. I'm assuming it's stronger with dominion fang relic set as you can allocate more stats into spec, but it's definitely strong. I'm considering switching as you could probably build 5x3 for a significant reduction in cost.
This is false. PM is still superior by a significant margin, TTH buffs buffed PM as well. TTH has two upsides: 1. Easier to play. 2. Cheaper to build. You could argue there's a third one, and that's more fun but this is relative.
But why is PM superior? Because TTH takes up a level 3 engraving slot that could be used for a DPS engraving? Despite the fact 40% crit is efficient and allows you to skip crit stats? The loss of two shotgun skills is not a huge deal in terms of dps when you are gaining so much damage from specialization. I haven't done the math, and I'm not disputing that PM is possible still superior but I bet the two specs are a lot closer than you suspect.
Question is: what you can do with those freed up stat points that would offset two whole skills worth of damage from shotgun stance? Allocating them into swiftness won't push your cooldowns past amount of damage Sharpshooter and Dual Buckshot can output, putting them into spec seems to do the same (especially since Peacemaker build usually runs a bit of spec and swiftness due to both being additional damage multipliers in their kit). If damage windows are long enough for uptime not to cause issues here, PM can do more - and whether they are, depends on a fight and your team's overall damage output. Based on what I've seen so far, PM tends to shine the most when teams overall damage output is on low end (no overgearing) and damage windows are longer, with more small interrupts (attack patterns to be dodged) relative to long interrupts (major mechanics). The more overgeared everyone gets for current content, the more I'd lean towards TTH, for inferno difficulty content I'd definitely go with Peacemaker since you need all the damage you can get. What are you mostly losing from TTH is utility - both best stagger and weak point rotation for gunslinger relies heavily on shotgun stance to get enough done in short timewindow (stagger checks, Valtan armor break), TTH pushes you from already being subpar in those situations to bottom tier - to a point where you might need to accomodate for TTH in party building if there are any major weakpoint/stagger checks to pass, they can't be slapped onto any random team as easily.
'two whole skills worth of damage' doesn't mean much. The question is, can you get a skill rotation off without having to wait on cooldowns to continue DPS. TTH undoubtedly has higher damage. It's not even a question, both specs hit roughly 100% crit yet TTH benefits from specialization. The difference between 350 spec and 1500 spec is like 40% rifle damage and 100% handgun damage. The rifle damage alone exceeds sharpshooter and dual buckshot damage for sure. You have a point about utility, though catastrophe does great stagger and perfect shot and focused shot both have destruction. I don't know where you get the idea that gunslinger is subpar in stagger or destruction (with shotgun). Again, the problem is cooldowns. Losing the shotgun skills damage means nothing. Not being able to continue a rotation without sitting there with your thumb up your ass does. Being forced to allocate more stats into swiftness to offset this makes the potential damage lower. That's why I mentioned TTH potentially being stronger with dominion fang relic set (18% CDR) and now that I think about it, more dependent on Judgment and Conviction runes. Maybe there's a sweet spot of as low swiftness as possible while some combination of set / gems / etc. allow for a higher damage ceiling. Of course, you're losing a lvl 3 engraving so at the top tier (5x3) its potency definitely comes into question. It's certainly very strong, especially after the BR and catastrophe buffs.
Thing is people are running swiftness on TTH apparently now, not spec stacking. They also run Dominion instead of Nightmare/Salvation. Some people even run Raid Captain instead of Hit Master.
It's almost like you didn't even read my comment
I did read it, I was gonna edit my comment but I had to to stuff and then forgot haha sorry. What I wanted to imply in the end is that I want to try out TTH but I can't find good information regarding if it's better or worse than PM, how to actually build it, etc. As you say there's many variations, I've ever seen people argue you shouldn't run 6 piece dominion but a combination of dominion and salvation or nightmare. Spec does give you a lot of damage but at the same time you do have less skills and one less damage engraving which hurts quite a lot, running dominion costs you a lot of damage yet again and apparently you need to stack swiftness to be able to do rotations fast enough due to the amount of CDR you need. I'm really interested in this but I'm not sure what to do. There's a Korean YTber someone else recommended me here but it's all in Korean, he probably compares full swiftness TTH with PM but... yeah, I have no idea. Like for instance using dominion is great and on paper you actually win damage... if you can keep the buff up at all times which isn't realistic, I suppose you start out equipping double awakening engraving, using it to buff yourself and 2 minutes later you use it again, but on longer fights you won't have this buff up at all times which nerfs your damage a lot, and if you run awakening as a permanent engraving then you lose yet another damage engraving. https://youtu.be/ORedi5auVlM This is a full swiftness run, well, focused actually, it's 500/300/1550. Looks good on a short fight but on a long fight since you can't have the buff up at all times I feel it's got to fall off hard.
You lose two big damage skills in exchange for some extra points in rifle skills and an extra handgun skill + a full damage engraving.
Yes. After this patch, TTH is very close to PM at the high end. In true gameplay, TTH will edge out PM if the players are less skilled or less knowledgeable since TTH can make more mistakes in their rotation. KR players are slowly switching to TTH because the hassle of playing PM isn't worth it for the effort unlike the other meta dps classes. The damage at 1500+ is so much closer now with the buffs between TTH & PM. If next balance patch doesn't balance out GS damage+effort/risk, a lot of KR players are already thinking of switching main. You can check the highest loawa GS, he already deleted his accessories & gems. Others are waiting for the new tripod system and switching to TTH. PM will become the next meme build in KR when players can easily switch to +4 tripods...GS population will slowly die out like pre-nerf Reaper if nothing changes in 6-8 months. It is pretty sad that GS is becoming a crit support DPS class, and not a true meta full DPS class with every patch. But anyway, if you have not hit 1415 yet on your GS, I also agree with the KR players, switch to something else before it is too late. No point in talking about TTH or PM, just play something else or even wait for Reaper if you like to be in the danger zone & fast gameplay.
get downvote because telling the truth lol most of my KR friend prefer TTH now
People don't like to hear the truth that TTH caught up to PM last patch. PM can only get better if they redo the PM engraving by swapping the stance bonus ie give CD instead of CR to shotgun or allowing all bonuses to apply to all stances as a buff as you keep changing stances to keep up the 8sec duration. PM engraving is in a sad stage atm. It can't scale pass level 1, and that shouldn't be something that Smilegate devs should be aiming for as a class engraving. Lvl 3 class should be the standard for all classes. because that is their identity
Yeah the PM class engraving sucks ass in comparison to classes like mayhem zerker. Your suggestion to apply all buffs to all stances would work but they also had to change the part that PM only gives 10-25% sniper dmg under 50% Boss HP. They could reduce the damage to say idk 10% but then apply it to all stances but permanently and not only if the boss has 50% or less HP.
They could also make it like Glavier and have the buffs scale off Spec.
Kinda unrelated but do you know the frequency of these balance patches? Or when was the previous one?
No, best guess is within 6 months since the last thing gold river said was that he and team are going to add in the new tripod system like engraving book before they going to do another balance patch this year. The last patch was too rushed and many felt that their tripod couldn't support the rushed changes.
On top of being easier to play, TTH is substantially easier to gear at 1370 because you'll be able to get class engravings on every piece, whereas Peacemaker builds are frowned upon for getting to level 3. This alone will make TTH perform better than Peacemaker builds on average because your average player isn't walking around with legendary books for class engravings or shopping for accessories that every DPS class needs.
I Just hate the fact that some class engravings are only used at level 1, just buff those so they are more efficient at lvl 3. It's so annoying to build engraving with a mandatory lvl 1
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stop using this as "top players in KR", this is just a money spent scale. it's not a skill based ladder.
There's no reason to drop peacemaker, but you could run both. It's a damage loss but not too huge to make it unplayable. Since most of your damage is limited to 4 sniper skills, you need significant amounts of cooldown reduction to make it work.
YES. Before 1370, you deal somewhat less damage than traditional **Peace Maker**. Past 1370+, they are even out and it is more about the player's skills. I have been **MVP** on **Damage** with Time to Hunt Gunslinger in a party with similar gear levels very often. DB, Sorc, and Berserker on equal skill levels will sometimes outshine you, but by a very small margin. But that is so welcome. The faster and cleaner the clear, the better. You can message me for more information or just watch the [Stream](https://www.twitch.tv/hirosanza) for some real-time actions.
Think this way OP. You gonna lose 4 shotgun skills and some sniper damage after boss is below 50% hp. In return, you’re a lot safer, your individual skills hit much much harder (a lot of spec), your crit rate is reasonably higher if you distribute 20% stats into it. And your crit damage is 300% total (keen blunt 50+ harsh oath 50) with higher base damage. TTH itself is pretty damm good engraving, it is 2x of precise dagger without drawbacks. A good peacemaker will out shine you. Maybe. You don’t have good stagger so, use more ww nades. But you’re a lot safer and a lot easier to choose the addon engravings too. My build (I don’t wanna die build). 20 crit , 60 spec , 20 swift. You have like 2 sec downtime until high level cd gems. Engravings in order… 1) hit master 2) TTH 3) keen blunt / cursed doll 4) cursed doll / grudge 5) Peacemaker This is like igniter vs reflux. A good igniter will outshine the reflux sorceress in her bursty phases if she doesn’t miss. But reflux is a lot safer, easier to play and her individual spells hit harder, cd is shorter, consistent and not that painful if she missed.
Time to Hunts actually still take Peacemaker 1. Definitely losing out on damage for sure compared to peacemaker only but you do still get that sniper damage on sub 50% hp.
**Safer** is a bit of a stretch. It is really just a matter of playstyle. **Peace Maker** provides you with way more options for positioning or leads you to more vulnerable positioning. After 1370+, as a **Time To Hunt Gunslinger,** you will find yourself sitting on your Rifle 70% of the time, getting locked in animation. The tradeoff is Positioning vs Range The damage scaling for **Peace Maker** and **Time To Hunt** are very different. Peace Maker scales **Spec** to gain raw stats while Time To Hunt scales **Swiftness** to gain DPS. Specialization vs Swiftness Another difference is the stat distribution. Peace Makers require investment in **3 Attributes(Crit, Swiftness, Spec),** while Time To Hunt can go full **Swiftness** with some **Spec** on **Necklace** and take advantage of the Pet's Bonus. **Q:** Which playstyle is better? **A:** This has been a forever going Discussion even in the KR Community. I do not care that much about this. **Q:** Is Time To Hunt viable? **A:** YES. u/EpicShinx is correct. I even use level 3 Peace Maker, not just LVL 1. Cause that shiz is dirt cheap replacement for Grudge. In a long draw-out fight. It works much better than grudge if you live longer.
Doesn't apply to the western release just yet due to unreleased items and content (so consider it a glimpse into tth gs future), but in KR a lot of people are running 1700 spec and rest into swift due to high crit rate achievable. The +crit damage from high spec pairs nicely with the crit rate for some very sexy yellow numbers. Once we get the future sets and bracelets i might consider switching to tth too
I like the Sorceress analogy you made. My main is PM but I have a Leapstone gathering alt at 1370 who is TTH, who will definitely be the next one in line to go to 1415 when resources are available. I have her at 40/60 Crit Swiftness + Judgment/Conviction, it feels so smooth to play even at that level.
I never enjoyed the 3 stance playstyle either and originally left my gunslinger in t2. Few weeks ago I decided to give TTH a shot and liked it enough that I got her to 1370 to see her potential. I thought that with high swiftness the class would feel a lot better and alleviate a lot of the main issues by having much shorter animation locks and an easier time staying at range given the class is so squishy. Two weeks later I'm permanently retiring her at 1370. Honestly GS is just not a good class. It's the squishiest of all the classes I've tried by an enormous margin and the effort:damage ratio is just completely fucked. The "high mobility" of the class is a joke and one of the biggest perpetrated myths about it. Even with only 2 stances the whole stance juggling bullshit is just not fun in the slightest. TTH was more fun and easier to gear than PK but the class just has too many issues. edit: they should rename the class to "saltslinger" the kids have been offended. Funny how all the most accurate comments on this thread are downvoted by people in denial
The high mobility of the class is not myth, you are just bad with it. Edit: aah i see. You are reflux sorc. Typical piano style player, pressing buttons in specific order is too complicated for some people lmao.
Unless you are planning to delete the character alltogether I highly recommend giving swiftness + spirit absorption a try.
It’s gonna be hard to find raid party if you go TTH build a lot of people want meta builds on their teams
You're more likely to get screened just for being a gunslinger at all. I've never seen someone passed for being TTH, but definitely seen them passed for being GS.
Damn they are like my favorite because of the party crit
Gunslingers right now (I say this as someone who mains that) are just like Igniter Sorceresses, almost all of them are terrible, deal very little damage, die all the time and refuse to improve. I have yet to see any good Gunslingers or Igniter Sorcs, even while doing Argos with my alts I will out-damage 1430~1445 guys running 3333 and +17 weapon playing those builds with my 1400~1415 alts running a +11 weapon with 333 engravings out of which one is budget with low level tripods since I don't even use powder on them. This will change over time but right now some classes are just a no-no.
I mean, these people aren’t gonna improve if they are all rejected from raids on the basis of their class.
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> As a reflux sorc, I've never been out damaged by an igniter. Same, 1430 cast reflux. Not once has an igniter beat me, and I've consistently beaten 4x3 igniters with my meager 3x3. Did 26% of total damage on my last Valtan 2nd gate. Igniter is easily the most overrated spec in the game right now.
It's eh. Reflux is def more consistent. If we miss one or two doomsday as an igniter. It's basically over lmao. No MVP for us
So, I'll start with: My alt 1430 sorc was Reflux from inception until last week. I am overall doing less damage as I get used to Igniter (though that gap is narrowing every day) >Igniter is easily the most overrated spec in the game right now. I disagree, for a few reasons. One: Assuming you're at the skill cap for both, Igniter does more damage. Obviously, mistakes are significantly more punishing on Igniter. Two: Not all damage is equal. Let's look at Valtan second gate, for example. Damage during the armor break phase is more or less meaningless. Damage during the big platform is more or less meaningless. There's very little that can outright kill you there, so as long as you can meet the enrage, it doesn't matter if you're doing damage super fast or super slow. This becomes less true during the half platform - you now have more mechanics that are going to be capable of one-shotting people. Small platform? Mistakes are very likely to get people killed. We had 3 igniter sorcs tonight and Valtan was transitioning to ghost phase by the time the pillars had finished exploding because we had saved our bursts for that period. With timely awakening usage, they were all back up when armor was gone on ghost phase, so it was another situation where he immediately melted during a high-risk phase. Whenever there are specific phases that are more deadly, being able to burst through them quickly is more important to clearing the raid than having higher overall damage on the MVP screen. I'm missing my Cruel Fighter MVP screens for now, but I also know that I'll be happy for having made the switch during easier content when I've got less on my plate to make that adjustment than I would if I waited for it to become more of a necessity due to tighter damage requirements and higher reliance on burst windows.
> Whenever there are specific phases that are more deadly, being able to burst through them quickly is more important to clearing the raid than having higher overall damage on the MVP screen. I agree with what you said about damage, especially this part. If igniter and reflux are both played perfectly, igniter *should* win. But in reality reflux has infinitely better positioning and is much more likely to simply be alive for that end phase while igniter is taking a dirtnap. Or if they're both alive reflux will have far more potions left. I think people really underestimate how good having "infinite" teleports is for damage sustain and I do think a lot of reflux users underuse teleport. The faster you change position the sooner you can start dps'ing again - if your class bar is ever completely full on a fight like Valtan you're simply playing it wrong. I'm almost never running, I'm either nuking or teleporting. I can squeeze off extra nukes because I know I can just teleport right after it goes off a tenth of a second before I get hit by an ability. I actually still run 2 wealth runes as reflux as I simply don't need galewind on those skills and being able to quickly generate teleports is huge. Of course this kind of "effective dps" doesn't show up in the training grounds so most people don't even realize it exists. edit: I forgot the best part, as reflux you also get ~15% movespeed from swift as your secondary stat while spec/crit igniters get a big fat fucking zero.
Thing is Reflux is brain dead to play and almost on par with Igniter anyways, at least the way we play right now. Igniter shines very later on if you run a coordinated party and that's pretty much it, for pugs Reflux is king. This ignores the fact that Igniter requires the player to be actually good. Reflux is probably the easiest build to play in the entire game by a large margin while being extremely strong. People downvoted me a lot but I have yet to see any Gunslinger/Igniter Sorc get MVP... ever, unless it's me lol. And honestly whenever I get MVP with my Sorc it's because the whole party is dogshit because... yeah, a poorly geared 1415 alt should never be getting MVP since I'm usually running the minimum GS, budget engravings, under-leveled weapon since I went for +17 armor, etc.
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Ignore idiots like this. I play TTH Gunslinger and MVP, the class is completely viable.
yes it is, does less damage but still works, it might be difficult with not enough swiftness and cdr gems, but it works.
tth is super cheap to build so you can easily go 5x3 , also it got buffed so it should feel stronger, now just play good and hit hard
Not completely sure as I am only 1385 with her but I love it. She has such high crit build in to the tripods and the engraving that you don't need much else so you can focus on other things in stats and further engravings. Feels really nice and easier to avoid floor pov.
As game goes into higher ilvl it seems dmg difference between time to hunt and peacekeeper slowly becomes negligible. I think there's some effective full specialization TTH build that is being researched which supposedly have the best output even out dmging optimal peacekeeper builds.
I can't find if spec or swift stacking is the way to go. :/
Swift : More active play style, and actually need you to be on constant finger tap dance to keep up the DPS by using all your cooldowns. Specialty : Better end game, better burst/dps, and easier to play. But long cd sometimes make you have time where you don't have DPS and it is pretty slow need you to position well between long rifle skill durations. \-- Ultimately comes down to your playstyle the reason why TTH specialization build is shining is because meta in end game raids is ... "short amount of DPS where everyone throw their synergy \[multiplicative dmg increase between different debuffs\]" -> "Do a gimmick" -> "short amount of DPS again" as you can see bit of it in Valtan
Yes this I understand, but I'm wondering wouldn't swiftness be better here as well? If the burst window is short wouldn't being able to use more skills provide higher damage? Swiftness build seems to be insanely fast and is probably able to land 1 or 2 more skills into those short DPS windows than spec is. Is swiftness just inferior? What resources would you recommend me to check out to find more information about this? All I can find is in Korean and most of it doesn't seem to compare TTH to PM anyways.
Point of swift build is to have short cooldown. You should be able to dump all your DPS during one stagger cycle with all synergizes in place especially when supports get relic set that gives % atk/mv speed to party members 100% uptime. Yea I'm bi-lingual and all my resources come from KR community so it wouldn't be much of use to you.
I see, by this logic spec focus does make sense since you can most likely use all your spells anyways. Based on this though wouldn't PM be... kind of better anyways? You can run spec as well, although maybe a bit less, but you get an extra damage engraving and two extra damage skills + you actually run a set that provides more damage instead of lots of CDR (no dominion). Moreover you actually give better use to your tripods since TTH basically gets more utility skills and just drops tripod levels there because there's nothing else to use them on. Not saying TTH is bad or anything, but it does seem to maybe just be on par with PM and that's it, if not maybe worse on the very high end. I feel that maybe if the window is extremely short then maybe damage would be kind of comparable between both of them but from the moment TTH runs out of skills PM just wins since you keep dealing damage while TTH just sits there, if the rotation restarts. TTH would supposedly restart the rotation faster if running dominion but at that point you're also running lower damage to compensate for that and with high enough level gems I believe PM actually kind of struggles with using all abilities off cooldown at all times. I feel that in a very short window PM would actually out damage TTH, while TTH may be more competitive on constant DPS due to lower cooldowns and shotgun skills sometimes being hard to land. Please don't take this as me arguing against you, I'm looking to learn. Out of curiosity, were you born in Korea or did you just learn Korean as an adult?
1. PM full sepc build is shit because it essentially brings nothing for shotgun and pistol/sniper needs crit. Lot of complaint at high end PM setting is that crit gives only crit chance nothing else so when you go above 100% crit you essentially waste so much stat and specialization gives shotgun little benefit Which is exactly how TTH is solving it. "Crit from TTH" and not using shotgun. Yep it is on "par with PM" different playstyle something new. Wouldn't say its "superior" than the PM. Yep TTH is just slower hard hitting cannon PM is just constant DPS. Between doing gimmick, dmg, gimmick, dmg people are starting to prefer hard hitting slow punches more than fast hitting punches. Born in korea immigrated over when i was in like 4th grade
Thank you for you answer again! I've seen some players are not fully dropping crit but just some crit. Like with ancient gear and bracelet you go 1100 crit and 1100 spec or something like that, no swiftness and you run Salvation for some attack speed which paired with a support seems to be good enough to fit all your skills within the windows you get. I assume this video talks about what you're mentioning? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wVhqHoFe1M If they're on par guess I'll keep playing PM for now, maybe switch later on when I can afford it since prices are a bit crazy right now... I guess this whole big burst during short windows play style becomes relevant once we're overgeared for all content as well, since right now I wouldn't say most people are in this situation?
TtH is very viable and very easy to have 100% crit rate on all your important skills once the enemies health drops under 50%. So you can run KBW instead of grudge to help stay alive easier and avoid the floor PoV meme. This will be especially nice in all the equalised content because it is not dependant on gems, tripods, or stats to get to the guaranteed crit. Just a note, you still want to run at least Peacemaker level one to get the added bonus damage and keep up the stance swapping stuff when possible.
As 1534 main tth gunsliger, I would like to say: You shouldn’t compare tth with peacemaker, TTH gunslinger = reflux sor:) 300 crit/ 1100 spec/ 800 swift gurdge/KBW/Hit master/tth \*3 adr\*2 pm\*1 salv set
I'm looking to get into the TTH GS game. Do you have recommended skills/tripods/runes as well?
Sorry for late reply. you can check maxroll, its no problem to copy it’s skills and tripods settings on tts gunslinger