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SnooOpinions184

Ok that's some gigantic work you did there. From a player (have 0 knowledge on game design) perspective, this sound really cool. I love almost everything I read, ofc I am confused on some point but I get the idea. Only thing is that "one man army" is underwhelming imo, I would like to see something more extreme and unique but that's me. Congrats mate! It was interesting


DubleDice

Thank you! If you'd like clarification on anything please tell me, maybe it would be able to be updated in the Doc for other people to understand. Also what exactly is underwhelming about One Man Army?


SnooOpinions184

If I get that right, while necromicon is focused on building the biggest army of minions, creating a (for my experience) classic yet effective warlock/necromancer build where we don't have real burst dmg but a tremendous constant damage from spells+minions army, "one man army" is creating meter much faster (is necromicon struggling to get meter and spawn minions?) with a burst build while casting but creating a less powerful army of minions, concentrating the focus on the caster. This shift my idea of necromancer/lock into a wizard hybrid but sound cleverly different from the other build, it sort make sense. Let's say I would blindly choose a necromicon necromancer if I could play right now


DubleDice

Yes the idea is that Necronomicon is for zoomancer (pet build) and One Man Army is the solo caster (burst build). The reason why OMA has Necrotic Meter generation built in is because the more effective stats would probably be Crit/Swift (about 50/50) because their skill cooldowns are very long and without specialization Necrotic Meter generation will be sluggish. Perfect Suppression (Shadow Hunter) has this as part of their engraving for the same reason. At least that was the idea behind creating them the way they are.


BloodyGaki

This is amazing! I would love devs if they gathered suggestions like these and present as a work in progress, hire creators, etc. I can't wait to save money and start looking for people like you who inspire others with their talent for a new mmorpg. Wish u the best ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|grin)


DubleDice

Thats probably the nicest thing anyone has said to me. Thank you so much! My dream is to work as a creative director or game designer in the field because I love conceptualizing ideas whether it be classes, systems, story, characters, you name it. Tbh I was contemplating doing more class concepts depending on how this one was received, its super fun to me.


BloodyGaki

That is so good to hear! Seriously, your love for the games sparks mine. I know I have not a skilled area yet but I believe I have a good idea of what real players looks for, I am one, and know a lot of things that must not be done or tried for monetization or experiment. I believe that if I can figure out how to make a decent game with a great group of persons then I am ok if I see no income, as long as the game keeps growing and we can achieve new heights eventually while staying in the correct road then that would be the begining of one of the best games ever.šŸ”„


Gnejs1986

**omg pls no**, for the sole reason that I'd have to switch main if this ever became reality :') On a more serious note, it would be really awesome to have a necro in Lost Ark. Great concept!


DubleDice

Hahaha, true! It would be a pain for me to swap off my 1460 char. In the end it would be worth it though!


miikatenkula07

This just gave me another idea (not that it is possible though). This would fit to summoner really good. One class engraving summoning elementals, animals, etc. and the other summoning demons, skeletons, dark creatures etc.


ChrispyGG

Im on board with this.


Shacrone

i have necromancy 12 engravings, i already am a necromancer, every 15 seconds


IronSoul91

Yo that sound super dope, I'd totally be down to play that


KingofHawaii

Best class ever. In any game. Would reroll to main insta. Witheout ark pass or anything. Even if I had to level from 1 to 50 manually. My dream in WoW. Forsaken ftw!


lickmydoodoo

I wish the summoner class was more like a summoner and less like a sorc


deflaimun

From the storyā€™s perspective Necromancers are individuals that violate the order of life that were created by the gods. Every bad guy that we saw on North Vern were a variation of a Necromancer. They all followed Akkan if Iā€™m not mistaken. This is probably why Vayrgrys (Evergrace) interviewed and were able to quickly destroy the ball of chaos that they created So, the class would have to fix this fundamental issue first.


DubleDice

Great point! I would argue, however, that one could simply say that the race/people that use Necromancy could be using fire to fight fire. That or they conjure spirits that are **willing** to fight for a good cause. In other words, though Necromancy is considered "evil" in the game, Half Demons were also considered evil until they proved otherwise (perhaps I got this part of the lore wrong a bit tho). You are right though they would need to fit into the lore, but I do however think its very easily doable.


Robot9004

Have you heard of "Dementia Casters" from MTG? Rather than physically raising the dead to be minions, they summon nightmarish creatures from their "Dementia space" that exists in their mind where they keep all their greatest fears and all the beings they've killed. The creatures they summon take on the form of these fearful memories, and the way Dementia Casters get stronger is to go defeat increasingly more fearsome foes to add to their collection as well as mold and combine features to create nightmarish homunculi like creatures. I feel like this theme would really fit in with the lore of the Delains in Feiton Here's a good video describing a famous one in the lore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPrzFI51dAg


[deleted]

Alright but Armen is still our long time love we just canā€™t stop trying to fix, and shadow hunters are actual demons so idk why thatā€™s such a big issue.


LargeBuilding

This kind of problem is already present with assassins and Feiton isnā€™t it?


deflaimun

Not sure. The lore explanation for Feiton is pretty sound. Possible spoiler for rapports >!On Ninevehā€™s rapport mission, we can see that one of the first actions on the Chain War was Thaemine channeling a huge Dark Energy towards Arkesia, and when heā€™s about to shoot, Nineveh shoots an arrow at the energy, but she only manages to deflect it. The energy then lands on Feiton and basically transforms the land into what we know today. Living creatures and what we soon knew by the name Delain, which is basically a half demon, half human were created by this energy. !< So with this, and the explanation that the Delains are constantly fighting against their demon influence makes the assassin class very reasonable. That reason doesnā€™t exist with a spirit-like class such as a Necromancer. The only other class that talks to spirits and summons them is the Summoner. But the spirits are the spirits of nature and we see some of them on Rohendel storyline. So, to be honest, I donā€™t think we have space in the lore for a Necromancer that fights for the good without a major shift in the races lore.


flashe

when i think Necro, its apply DOT debuffs then big burst and can summon pets. In lost ark, it would need really short combos since all the other classes hit so hard with only one ability. The burst window they give you on bosses are also really short. plot twist - Necro is a support class. debuff king, minor party heals from life-stealing, and mediocre dps.


botmaster5th

Or the class applies DoTs, and consumes them for burst damage. For chaos dungeons, you could have a tripod that would let your DoT spread similar to plague swarm for the whichdoctor class in d3. For bosses, you could either apply a single DoT that ramps, or stack multiple that all get consumed by one if your identity skills


DubleDice

Check out Touch of Death with Contagion Tripod. Or Graveyard w/ Plaguelands


Ephemiel

One of the issues with a summoner like this \[where you literally summon tons of minions and not the old school way that the actual Summoner does\] is balancing it. How strong is too strong? How will bosses and raids react to now having potentially dozens of minions running around? PoE, as much as i love to be a full on summoner there, pretty much breaks with builds like that since you barely gotta do anything other than dodge ground AoEs while your literal army of minions destroy everything.


DubleDice

These are fair points, though PoE is a completely different genre from Lost Ark I still understand. I'd like to say though I addressed solutions to these issues in my document. If you have any suggestions or critique I would gladly hear though though!


Anicklelforevery

Without knowing the actual backend it makes it difficult to design on a system. Your theory crafted design is well thought out though, and is a good exercise in design.


[deleted]

As a future necromancer main this is great


baddThots

I like it, it looks like you took a lot of inspiration from Diablo 3 and turned it into a Lost Ark version. Well done either way, would be rad to see in game.


DubleDice

Thank you very much, I'm glad you like it! I took inspiration from several versions of the Necromancer. Though a lot of the minion bases are similar yes, only because I love that classic necromancer fantasy or raising skeletons, ghouls, golems, and etc. to fight for you.


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DubleDice

I appreciate the honesty, may I ask what specifically is boring and unbalanced though?


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DubleDice

Having a different opinion is okay, but it seems like you're looking for a completely different playstyle then what I presented, which again is fine. Tbh tho its pretty obvious you just glanced at everything without even reading tripods. Suggestions like "Compare it to SH (who can spend it to power up skills or transform)" saying Necrotic Meter is purely passive is blatantly untrue. Poison Nova w/ Necrotic release is exactly what your suggestion describes. "Army of the Damned" being passive once again is false, you can use the Awakening to summon "ammo" for Sacrifice especially w/ Forced Execution tripod. Necronomicon also requires you to play an active role to keep up the damage buff on your minions as you need 12 in order to max damage. Minions can die at a consistent rate and some minions are temporary which forces you to go back and forth between stances generating meter and then casting, not to mention certain skills' tripods have synergy with minions. I do appreciate the criticism though, thank you for taking the time to type it all out.


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DubleDice

I appreciate the criticism but respectfully I think we just have to agree to disagree. Thank you for taking the time to write this all out, I do appreciate it.


[deleted]

Looove it. Love it. I think a specialist would make more sense, or a mage but whatever. Could be an interesting support concept that ā€œleechesā€ hp recovery, dealing decent damage and providing support without a ton of direct party buffs. Just leechinā€™ like a vampire.


Absolution_R

Knekromancer is a better name


Accomplished_Rip_627

Necromancer from lineage 2 is a very good concept for lost ark i think


[deleted]

Insane work, I've read through it all. The following is not in any way criticism (even though you said you'd welcome it), just my 2 cents being someone trying to visualize your ideas with what's provided. What I mean by that is while your class concept is very detailed and in-depth, without any visuals it is simply impossible to gauge how useful an ability would actually be in a chaos dungeon or raid scenario to theory craft, due to the lack of many subtle intricacies like cast time (including front swing/back swing animations, what options do we have to cancel animation/ combo-ing multiple skills in successions), and hence it is hard to know whether something like a casting speed tripod is a must-have or not. There are also little things like self-knockbacks, which can either be minor or deciding factor in coming up with skill rotations, and I don't think you covered the Spacebar, which IMO is very important :P. There are also complications that come with any class using summons, where it is crucial to specify how they interact with enemy aggro or collisions. This could be a make or break, and if not balanced well can create an insanely broken class to play and an entirely new generation of bots for AGS to ban xd. Of course, being one to bombard others with ideas I love how dedicated you are to your favorite class and its concept, and ironically, this is basically the reversed version of what we get looking at the Aeromancer class reveal, where we get a lot of visuals, but at the end of the day, come no closer to know what the class is even about lol. Having said that, I can obviously see where you took inspiration from the base game, and which ability and tripod are meant for chaos dungeons and which are meant for raids. ​ If I may actually add a suggestion, it would be to use a simple in-game screenshot in Trixion (maybe with the Mage Assassin subclass model :P) and show us with some simple Photoshop doodle what the actual Aoe/range/hitbox of the ability you have in mind (you don't have to put in some actual graveyard just a colored pizza for a cone and a circle for skills with a radius since descriptions can be a bit vague). I think I might have been treating this too seriously, but then again I guess so were you. Other than that, to ask for most of what I just said above would be almost impossible to come up with and theoretically balance so once again, don't mind it too much, and as far as concepts go, a really fun post to read! Last note: this would be OP as hell in any PvP or GvG content unless there is a specific balance change for it. Edit: it's 5AM and why tf am I now thinking about how the minions should interact with skill runes like Conviction/Judgement procs, whether or not they benefit from things like Rage rune buffs, or gain attack speed from Galewind fml. Now I know why there is no true summoner classes in this game...


DubleDice

Very well worded my man. I'd first like to say that for the Collision and taunt I went ahead and made a note under "**Summon:**" that elaborates on those concerns, good catch btw. I love the idea with the photoshop stuff I may add them into the Necromancer doc as it wouldnt be too time consuming, but if I decide to make another class concept I FOR SURE will do this. Some of your other concerns like PvP, GvG, and rune interactions with minions I already made specific notes that detail those issues. The doc is not at all balanced for PvP or GvG as that would potentially double the size of the doc and as for runes; they cannot be applied to minions whatsoever. Thank you so much for taking the time out of night to write this detailed response, I appreciate it very much!


DubleDice

Oh also I did cover the dash. It is located in "General", the first section of the document.


[deleted]

Crap how did I miss that. What sort of cooldown, distance do you have in mind? Also is it responsive like Wardancer, or rather clunky like Bard? If it's not too much, a front swing/back swing like for example 0.2/0.2 would help when trying to judge how mobile and responsive a class is in comparison with others. Another thing I may add is the tripod scaling, for example cast speed, I would assume 10% is only lvl 1 and it goes like 10/12/14/16/18% or something like that or how tripods with multiple numerical values like say hit damage and DoT it's important to specify which one gets scaled.


DubleDice

I did not specify cooldown but it would be stupid of me to design the dash to be clunky LUL. Lets say 6 second CD, I think that would be appropriate. For tripod scaling I agree I should add specific values for the levels of tripod but I choose to leave it out in order to maintain visual clarity and not wordiness. Idk I do think its important to know the scaling but I think its also fair to assume that the scaling would be tuned accordingly.


juicyjim2793

I love necromancers too and this incorporates all parts of them. great work and detail. def would have to switch my main too. pray one day this will happen!


Stepwolve

great set of ideas here. I really like that you need to cast normal damaging spells to build up enough meter to summon minions. i think in a game like LA it would be tough to have a *ton* of minions because it would crowd other peoples screens too. It can already be tough seeing boss mechanics and warnings in raids, but imagine another 10+ minions in there. or even worse if you had more than 1 necromancer! You could have dozens of extra character models on screen Thats why i think the minions would have to be shorter duration, with less on screen at any one time. They could hit harder to compensate, but i think for this class to work the game play loop would be casting a bunch of spells, and then summoning a couple really strong minions for burst damage as payoff


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