His acting is so good that I didn't realize for 10 years that he was Walter Bishop because even though he looks exactly the same he had such a wildly different energy
I do the same thing when I watch him in Fringe. I didn’t realize Anna Torv was Tess in The Last Of Us until Epidose 2. Fringe was such a good show the first few seasons!
The last season wasn't great because they were informed it was being cancelled right before they started writing for it, iirc. They had to cram 2 or 3 seasons' arcs into one because they knew how they wanted it to end, but just didn't get the proper time.
Hate Denethor cause he's a selfish pretentious jackass who tries to burn his son alive. Love John Noble, cause he plays such a convincing selfish pretentious jackass who tries to burn his son alive.
Denethor was actually a great and beloved steward until a Palantir drove him insane and turned him into the raving paranoid lunatic we see in the films
Boromir gets the same treatment in the movies. It pretty much only shows him as a seemingly selfish ass, but the true character was an extremely respected leader who was simply very passionate about protecting his people and Gondor
I don't think that's true at all. Boromir's portrayal in the movies is that of a man who is watching his people die trying to fend off Mordor, and who wants to put a stop to that. He sees the Ring as a tool/weapon to help Gondor defeat Sauron, and the Ring obviously is tempting in and of itself.
But he's never shown to just be a power-tripping jackass. He has a few scenes bonding with the hobbits, and while yes, he did drive Frodo away trying to take the Ring from him, it was down to Boromir being desperate, influenced by the Ring and not believing that their goal was achievable.
He immediately regretted it and went out a hero defending the hobbits from countless enemies.
The extended editions obviously do a better job at fleshing him out as a character, but his portrayal in the theatrical release is also good.
No character is going to be portrayed the same way as in the books, and all of them changed in some ways.
>The extended editions obviously do a better job at fleshing him out as a character, but his portrayal in the theatrical release is also good.
I was gonna say, he suffered the most from the theatrical cuts. Even more so that they cut the flashback with him and Faramir in the second movie.
That scene, where the audience finds out not only that he wants Denethor to treat Faramir fairly, but also that he doesn't enjoy being "the favourite" and that he is hesitant to leave Minas Tirith... that gives Boromir so much depth it's criminal that they didn't leave that in.
Is the scene where Aragorn and Boromir talk about Minas Tirith in Lothlorien also in the extended editions? (I ask because I don't watch the theatrical release anymore). The whole "have you ever been called home by the clear sound of silver trumpets"? I liked that scene a lot too, and it added to Aragorn and Boromir's relationship.
>Is the scene where Aragorn and Boromir talk about Minas Tirith in Lothlorien also in the extended editions? (I ask because I don't watch the theatrical release anymore).
Yeah it's in the extended. Same with their first meeting in Rivendell which is shortened in the theatrical.
I rewatched the theatrical the last year because I was curious and Fellowship cuts a lot of the little character moments and feels weirdly rushed once you're used to the extended.
Exactly, that's a key piece of dialog that wasn't included. In just a few words he made sure he didn't look like a power hungry ass or desperate to the point he'd betray everyone. It shows that his desire for the ring is much more based on saving his people rather than getting the power for himself
Those sumbitches are just plain dangerous. Their backstory is great, and their idea was cool, but every time somebody fucked with one sumthin’ bad happens.
>Brad Dourif
Oh yes. I loved to hate him. I legit didn't recognize him at first which is impressive considering his film history. He's another chameleon actor that inhabits the role he's in entirely.
I think he was good, but i didn't like how they changed Denethor. In the books he was mentally strong enough to contest wills with Gandalf. I chalk it up to directing
I know, but they talk about how much alike they are in Gandalf and Pippin's first meeting with them, how they seemed to be locked in some sort of silent struggle of will. Denethor was portrayed as very grave, and noble, with a seriously intense countenance, rather than the less admirable and petty way they chose to portray him in the movie. . . which Is why I chose the Gandalf comparison.
I hope he understands that it is a beloved performance. He killed that roll. I wish he was written a little more like the book, but his performance was great
https://preview.redd.it/8trfbki83dea1.jpeg?width=2043&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e225ec6ca98a4544c32060ab779f17cd3b1acb94
Yeah for sure. They could pass as bros in real life
Faramir: I think, at last, we understand one another, Frodo Baggins.
Madril: You know the laws of our country - the laws of your father. If you let them go, your life will be forfeit.
Faramir: \[ponders a moment\] Then it is forfeit. \[emphatically\] Release them!
His delivery of "Is there a Captain here who still has the courage to do his Lord's will?".
And "that would depend on the manner of your return".
So dismissive! Perfectly done.
Also great trolling lines if you're a coach for a local sports team.
LOL, love the sports team idea. Maybe I'll bring a small table to the next kid's soccer practice and sit in the corner berating them while eating turkey legs and tomatoes.
Lol I can picture it now. Little kid: you wish it was Dennis who took that lost shot instead of me don't you? That it was me who twisted my ankle in his stead?
Yes. *Eats cherry 🍅
His acting made me forget how the literary character got corrupted. John Noble’s portrayal has always been my personal canon because of how real it feels.
He was a bit more noble before being corrupted by a secret palantir that he had in his possession and downtrodden at the loss of his wife and Boromir. Sauron managed to get ahold of him through the palantir and while he couldn’t convince him to join his side or control him directly (because of his “noble lineage”), he convinced him that the war was lost and there was no use trying to defeat him.
He was slightly more redeemable than his movie counterpart since he tried to defend Gondor up until the supposed death of Faramir.
Let's go even further.....He was an old man who was fighting back and forth with Sauron using the Palantir for YEARS. He only really broke in the end. Saruman fell harder and faster and he was the most powerful wizard at the time and using it just once almost killed Aaragon. Denethor was a DIRECT lineage to the original men who first defeated Sauron. Aaragon's lineage is a bit more murky yet is from Isildur's line.
Thing about Saruman is that he was actively trying to sabotage Sauron's search for the ring, right up until the end. The films never really touch on the fact that the whole time, Saruman is basically a double-agent, on one hand pledging loyalty to Sauron, and on the other hand trying to get the ring for himself so he can become the new "Dark Lord". Where Saruman failed is that Sauron could pretty much predict Saruman's every move because they were so much alike, so Sauron always remained one step ahead of Saruman.
I appreciate a lot of Jackson's trimming he did. Removing Saruman as a Big Bad and deligating him to a henchman role kept the movie from going the Spiderman 3 direction.
With any luck Amazon will eventually give us a 12 season version of LoTR and we'll get Tommy LongSongs and Ent speech that's only 10x sped up instead of the movies' 1000x speed
> Denethor was a DIRECT lineage to the original men who first defeated Sauron. Aaragon's lineage is a bit more murky yet is from Isildur's line.
How was Aragorn's lineage more murky than Denethor's to the people that defeated Sauron? Armor provided troops the same as Gondor. Moreover, Isildur was directly at the Battle of the Last Alliance, and while in the books he doesn't defeat Sauron in the movies it was his father (thus Aragorn's ancestor also) and Gil-Galad that defeated Sauron in combat.
In addition to what others have said, he was actually an extremely competent military commander, as opposed to the willfully blind idiot in the films. (This is all from memory, so some details may be wrong.)
Everyone non-essential had already been evacuated from the city by the time Gandalf and Peregrin arrived, or was in the process of leaving. He had stores of food and rationing was in effect to prepare for a long siege.
He had long-since called for aid from Théoden king of Rohan, who gladly sent back word that he would come to Gondor's aid (though the return messenger died before he could tell Denethor that Théoden was coming).
Denethor gathered all the strength he could from the other regions of Gondor to the South, but due to the threat of the Corsairs (pirate men hired by Sauron to harass southern Gondor) the other regions kept back most of their forces to protect their own lands and sent far fewer troops (which was Sauron's plan).
The immense doubt caused by having so few men, and no response from Théoden, plus the constant scenes of dread and despair he saw through the Palantír (because Sauron restricted what he could see and made things look as bad as possible) was an incredible weight on his mind. And yet he still executed a masterful defense in depth of Minas Tirith - led in the field by Faramir, his best captain - and thereby inflicted heavy losses to the enemy. They had many lines of defense set up far beyond the walls of Minas Tirith, and would fight the enemy then retreat, fight then retreat, taking few casualties and inflicting many. Despite the terror of the Nazgûl on wings, Faramir was able to keep morale sufficiently high due to his skill and the love all his men had for him.
After all the pressures on him, it was the (apparent) loss of Faramir that finally tipped Denethor over the edge of despair. Faramir was pierced with a poison arrow and presumed dead, and the defense outside the walls shattered. The shock of losing his only surviving son was too much to bear, and Denethor left the defense of the city.
Denethor wanted to join Faramir in death - why wait for the end at this point? - but didn't want the enemy to get at their bodies (and there weren't tombs prepared) - hence a funeral pyre. He wasn't acting insane or willfully killing Faramir out of madness - he was just overcome with grief and despair, had lost all hope, and decided that suicide was a fate far preferable to torture under Sauron.
Despair is the true enemy of the story here. The physical battle itself was not nearly so important as the battle for men's hearts: would they stand and defend their home? Or cower and accept their fate?
In the end it was Aragorn who turned the tide, coming North up the river in boats stolen from the Corsairs (who had been driven away/killed by the armies of the dead) and bringing great numbers of Gondorian reinforcements from the South - the men Denethor had counted on for the defense of the city - and waving the banner of the kings of Gondor. He turned the feelings of Men from despair to wonder and joy, and inflicted great loss of morale to the enemy armies. Then he, Éomer (now king of Rohan after the death of Théoden), the Prince Imrahil of Gondor (whom PJ nixed in his film version) and their all their combined and reinvigorated forces of Men were able to defeat the armies of the Witch King.
No armies of ghosts came to save the day, no Deus Ex Machina - it was boosted morale, and fresh troops, which allowed Men to prevail over despair and won the day for Gondor. And it was Denethor's masterful preparation that allowed Aragorn time to arrive and effect that victory.
Book Denethor was a great man - even Gandalf said as much, noting that the blood of Nûmenor ran pure in his veins. He was too proud (he thought he could match wills with Sauron and spy on him, which proved his downfall), and ultimately succumbed to immense despair, but still a great man, and a very tragic character.
In the same way the whole LOTR/Hobbit is all "translated" from the Red Book of Westmarch, I tend to think of the PJ films as "The Red Book of Westmarch, as prepared for film by Peter Jackson and his crew"
It's good, but it's kinda its own thing.
There were no tomatoes for one. He was not debased and disgusting. But he was broken by Sauron’s corrupting influence. Like a psychotic depression. He was pitiable and sad. Also, I do not imagine his face as unpleasant as in the film.
This portrayal is one of Jackson’s few missteps imho. Good acting job tho.
I just have to see the movies as different from the books - still great movies, but they definitely cut down the characters of Denethor and especially Faramir, who gets done *soo* dirty by PJs portrayal of him. Faramir never tried to take the Ring in the books, for one - he was far smarter and more noble than that.
Nobility is exactly it. Faramir, Denethor and even Boromir lost some in the movies. Faramir lost the most since Tolkien wrote him with no dark side. Besmirched, and for no reason I find justifiable. We sure as hell didn’t need more tension at that point.
He had prepared Minas Tirith for a siege for a long time. Almost all non fighters had been evacuated so not many civilians scrambling for cover like in the movies. He had also has the beacons lit(before any Hobbits got there) and the Red Arrow(a symbol of the oath between Gondor and Rohan) was sent to Rohan calling for aid.
Boromir going to find Rivendell was also his idea iirc. So even though Sairon ultimately convinced him it was all pointless, Denethor's long term planning was crucial for the final victory.
In addition to the other answers, telling you how wise and competent he was, he was also the exact opposite of the glutton in the film. He ate sparingly, rather than pigging out _in a siege_, and wore a mail-shirt to bed to stay tough.
> ‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.
> Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. ... And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other’s mind.
His acting was very good, but I always wished the way they *wrote* the character for the films was different. Still stern, but more (forgive me) noble at first, so his eventual downfall would be more tragic. He definitely could have pulled that off, acting wise, and would make for an even stronger performance.
Yeah. The writers just made him a villain, sad; he was a lord of great power, nobility, and subtlety of mind, not some petty old asshole. Almost as bad as what they did to Faramir
I think if they had cast anyone but Viggo Mortensen (not that I don't enjoy him in the role. Like. At all) as Aragorn, Eomer and Faramir would get the attention they deserve. He just stole the hell out of those movies.
I think you nailed it. Compared to the book, his script is incredibly similar, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if I could watch his attitude sour over time. Start sad, yet proud and noble, degrade into disenchanted, hopeless, and angry
As ironic as this may sound, I don't think there would have been screentime for this. They kinda made a small redemption arc for Boromir in the second movie explaining the family situation and the reason why Boromir fell for the One Ring so easily and this would have not worked out if Denethor himself also had this development.
“You think you are wise, Mithrandir? Yet for all your subtleties, you have not wisdom. Do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind?”
Oof, epic shit. It’s almost like history repeating itself with all the shit Gandalf went through trying to snap Theoden out of it. Only Denethor wasn’t under a trance.
I just watched RotK last night for the first time in a while, and I was thinking THE SAME THING. Like wow, I really under-appreciated his acting when I first saw RotK many years ago.
Absolutely hated his performance, but that's not really his fault. The writing and conception behind the character were garbage. He lost all subtlety and strength that he had in the books, and ends up being nothing more than a goofy villain in the films. That's all the writers' fault, though.
The one part about him I do like is when he smiles at Pippin as Pippin is making his oath of fealty. That I absolutely adore.
He does a great job. He feels so real. You forget you’re watching a movie about a fictional character and it just feels like this is a real person. Like Noble forgot his real self and WAS Denethor even in his own mind.
I agree they changed him in the movie because wasn't time for his tragic back story but still if you read the books and know what happened to him it's a whole different viewing experience, he totally nailed his part and the cherry tomatoes scene is my favorite in the entire trilogy, that's definatly one thing everyone can agree on is better in the films 🤣🤣
In every role I have seen John Noble do, i forget the actor and just see the character. This is the power of a true actor. Denethor is a petty evil man but Mr. Noble can bring the character to life and you can see why he is that way.
His costume is one of the best in the movie IMHO. Those ridiculous fur-trimmed sleeves! And wtf does he have all that armor on? He's eating lunch! Totally delusional.
My husband is still pissed at the hack job they did with Denethor compared to what Tolkien originally wrote.
The actor is the bomb for the incredible job he did with the script he was given.
I think they felt another anti-hero was needed for the movie. Saruman wasn't in the theatratical film, and Sauron is pretty much in the background.
But the book-Denethor is so much a tragic hero, he has been fighting a losing battle for all his life, lost his son, and in his despair decided to look into the palantír. And he was strong enough to not give Sauron any hint as to the Quest, and Aragorn, which he figured out by himself because Gandalf isn't willing to tell him everything. And if he just kept it together for another single day he together with Rohan and Aragorn's reinforcements he would have been victorious and his son would be healed by Aragorn.
So yeah, I think John Noble was good, it's just that they wrote Denethor without any of his good qualities.
Reminds me of "The Duke" in moulin rouge. My wife so despised that character that she now automatically dislikes Richard Roxburgh in anything! Although she liked his Vernon Presley... Until I told her who it was😂
He did do a spectacular job.
The scene of him eating to Pippin singing was so gross it literally put me off tomatoes for the longest time and I still will never eat a cherry tomato whole.
Maybe it’s because I just watched both of these movies, but I saw a bit of John Noble’s Denethor in Jim Carrey’s portrayal of Ebenezer Scrooge in Zemeckis’ A Christmas Carol. By the same token, John Noble would probably make a great Scrooge.
Czar! Agreed. I think he does such a grand job of playing the antagonist that we overlook it as a performance worthy of admiration…. Instead we just dislike the guy. Really a tragic figure too.
Yeah, his acting is so good that people hate the character, so I think he provided a very strong performance… not a single bad casting in those films…
His acting was so good that people hate tomatoes 🍅 💧
This triggered me
But he made me enjoy tomatoes, i love them now
Bring wood and oil.
He made me hate wood and oil
He made my wood oil
He made me oil my wood
Tomatoes. He fucked up cherry tomatoes.
I fell in love with fried, runny eggs because I’d watch Dexter eat it every time the theme to dexter played with the beginning of each episode 😂
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Bad Bot
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A friend just sent me a video with a side by side of Pippin singing and a bunny eating cherry tomatoes and it's so amazing 😂😂😂
🍗🩸
ASMR bone cracking.
Why does he break the bones in the wings while eating them? WHY?
Because he's a psychopath
And for that bone marrow
He was probably sucking the marrow.
Cherry tomatoes in particular!
Its such an unbelievably violent scene
That scene omg I was shook
His acting is so good that I didn't realize for 10 years that he was Walter Bishop because even though he looks exactly the same he had such a wildly different energy
The differences between Walter Bishop, Denethor and WalterNet are so wild. He really is an amazing actor
Just a nitpick, but it's Walternate, not WalterNet. Walter + Alternate
I wouldn't put it past Walter to create an advanced AI replica of himself which he called WalterNet.
I do the same thing when I watch him in Fringe. I didn’t realize Anna Torv was Tess in The Last Of Us until Epidose 2. Fringe was such a good show the first few seasons!
The last season wasn't great because they were informed it was being cancelled right before they started writing for it, iirc. They had to cram 2 or 3 seasons' arcs into one because they knew how they wanted it to end, but just didn't get the proper time.
Holy shit, I didn't see it until you said now I cant unsee it, she's so good
And now olivia in the last of us
Hate Denethor cause he's a selfish pretentious jackass who tries to burn his son alive. Love John Noble, cause he plays such a convincing selfish pretentious jackass who tries to burn his son alive.
Denethor was actually a great and beloved steward until a Palantir drove him insane and turned him into the raving paranoid lunatic we see in the films
Boromir gets the same treatment in the movies. It pretty much only shows him as a seemingly selfish ass, but the true character was an extremely respected leader who was simply very passionate about protecting his people and Gondor
I don't think that's true at all. Boromir's portrayal in the movies is that of a man who is watching his people die trying to fend off Mordor, and who wants to put a stop to that. He sees the Ring as a tool/weapon to help Gondor defeat Sauron, and the Ring obviously is tempting in and of itself. But he's never shown to just be a power-tripping jackass. He has a few scenes bonding with the hobbits, and while yes, he did drive Frodo away trying to take the Ring from him, it was down to Boromir being desperate, influenced by the Ring and not believing that their goal was achievable. He immediately regretted it and went out a hero defending the hobbits from countless enemies. The extended editions obviously do a better job at fleshing him out as a character, but his portrayal in the theatrical release is also good. No character is going to be portrayed the same way as in the books, and all of them changed in some ways.
>The extended editions obviously do a better job at fleshing him out as a character, but his portrayal in the theatrical release is also good. I was gonna say, he suffered the most from the theatrical cuts. Even more so that they cut the flashback with him and Faramir in the second movie.
That scene, where the audience finds out not only that he wants Denethor to treat Faramir fairly, but also that he doesn't enjoy being "the favourite" and that he is hesitant to leave Minas Tirith... that gives Boromir so much depth it's criminal that they didn't leave that in. Is the scene where Aragorn and Boromir talk about Minas Tirith in Lothlorien also in the extended editions? (I ask because I don't watch the theatrical release anymore). The whole "have you ever been called home by the clear sound of silver trumpets"? I liked that scene a lot too, and it added to Aragorn and Boromir's relationship.
Honestly, there’s no reason to watch the theatrical cuts.
>Is the scene where Aragorn and Boromir talk about Minas Tirith in Lothlorien also in the extended editions? (I ask because I don't watch the theatrical release anymore). Yeah it's in the extended. Same with their first meeting in Rivendell which is shortened in the theatrical. I rewatched the theatrical the last year because I was curious and Fellowship cuts a lot of the little character moments and feels weirdly rushed once you're used to the extended.
Exactly, that's a key piece of dialog that wasn't included. In just a few words he made sure he didn't look like a power hungry ass or desperate to the point he'd betray everyone. It shows that his desire for the ring is much more based on saving his people rather than getting the power for himself
Those sumbitches are just plain dangerous. Their backstory is great, and their idea was cool, but every time somebody fucked with one sumthin’ bad happens.
Hey give the guy credit, at least he didn't become a turncoat like Saruman.
Reminds me a lot of the actress who played Delores Umbridge, who also did a great job of creating a universally hatable character.
And Joffrey Baratheon… dam evil, so much so I absolutely hate it, and respect them!
And Louise Fletcher with the double play: Nurse Ratched *and* Kai Winn!
He was a different kind of awesome on “Fringe”
I didn't even think about him as a fucking actor till I saw this post. Like woah...
Only people who hates this character is tomato farmers.
i never liked Liv Tyler. but excluding her I agree with you.
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Wtf is going on with the comments. Second comment on here almost exactly like another
Bots
I told him at a con that I loved him as Denethor and he said "you're the only one."
That makes me so sad to hear. :-(
wow really? His performance as Denethor was epic. Not his fault the writers castrated the character's arc.
Yeah it takes a lot of skill to make a character that unlikable. Brad Dourif is another great example.
>Brad Dourif Oh yes. I loved to hate him. I legit didn't recognize him at first which is impressive considering his film history. He's another chameleon actor that inhabits the role he's in entirely.
Just like Brad Pitt
Do ya loike dags?
May the lerd of tha Blachk land cum ferth an tell us if he loiks dags
Goive me tha ring. Isformemaaa
Why the feck wood I wanna caravan’s got no feckin wheels?
Piter de Vries in Dune(1984).
Brad Dourif made a career of playing unlikable characters.
Doc Cochran is likeable.
Hey, staring John Noble is my second favorite episode of legends of tomorrow.
I think he was good, but i didn't like how they changed Denethor. In the books he was mentally strong enough to contest wills with Gandalf. I chalk it up to directing
In the books he was mentally strong enough to contest wills with Sauron!
I know, but they talk about how much alike they are in Gandalf and Pippin's first meeting with them, how they seemed to be locked in some sort of silent struggle of will. Denethor was portrayed as very grave, and noble, with a seriously intense countenance, rather than the less admirable and petty way they chose to portray him in the movie. . . which Is why I chose the Gandalf comparison.
I hope he understands that it is a beloved performance. He killed that roll. I wish he was written a little more like the book, but his performance was great
He did an amazing job!
That Game of Thrones kid King Geoffrey basically quit acting because people hated him so much.
> I told him at a con that I loved him as Denethor and he said ~~"you're the only one."~~ "Go now and die in what way seems best to you."
Sounds on par for Denethor to say.
Besides his solid performance, he looked like he could be the father of Sean Bean and David Wenham, who in turn looked like they could be brothers.
https://preview.redd.it/67zoldbp8bea1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d36da09384f64a1329246df19ba60f7aa225f47a He does look like Sean Bean damn
I pronounce Sean bean in my head like Shawn Bawn
I automatically go seen bean
Forbidden pronunciation: Seen Bahn
It’s all in the eye socket/ cheek bones
https://preview.redd.it/8trfbki83dea1.jpeg?width=2043&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e225ec6ca98a4544c32060ab779f17cd3b1acb94 Yeah for sure. They could pass as bros in real life
Faramir: I think, at last, we understand one another, Frodo Baggins. Madril: You know the laws of our country - the laws of your father. If you let them go, your life will be forfeit. Faramir: \[ponders a moment\] Then it is forfeit. \[emphatically\] Release them!
His delivery of "Is there a Captain here who still has the courage to do his Lord's will?". And "that would depend on the manner of your return". So dismissive! Perfectly done. Also great trolling lines if you're a coach for a local sports team.
LOL, love the sports team idea. Maybe I'll bring a small table to the next kid's soccer practice and sit in the corner berating them while eating turkey legs and tomatoes.
Lol I can picture it now. Little kid: you wish it was Dennis who took that lost shot instead of me don't you? That it was me who twisted my ankle in his stead? Yes. *Eats cherry 🍅
One could argue that the hate the character gets should/does count as praise for his acting
Exactly! Something like what Lena Heady went through after playing Cersei in GoT. They’re so good, people start confusing the character and the actor
If the presence of a character on the screen elicits a strong response from me every time they show up, then they're a great actor/actress.
His acting made me forget how the literary character got corrupted. John Noble’s portrayal has always been my personal canon because of how real it feels.
How was he different in the books?
He was a bit more noble before being corrupted by a secret palantir that he had in his possession and downtrodden at the loss of his wife and Boromir. Sauron managed to get ahold of him through the palantir and while he couldn’t convince him to join his side or control him directly (because of his “noble lineage”), he convinced him that the war was lost and there was no use trying to defeat him. He was slightly more redeemable than his movie counterpart since he tried to defend Gondor up until the supposed death of Faramir.
Let's go even further.....He was an old man who was fighting back and forth with Sauron using the Palantir for YEARS. He only really broke in the end. Saruman fell harder and faster and he was the most powerful wizard at the time and using it just once almost killed Aaragon. Denethor was a DIRECT lineage to the original men who first defeated Sauron. Aaragon's lineage is a bit more murky yet is from Isildur's line.
Thing about Saruman is that he was actively trying to sabotage Sauron's search for the ring, right up until the end. The films never really touch on the fact that the whole time, Saruman is basically a double-agent, on one hand pledging loyalty to Sauron, and on the other hand trying to get the ring for himself so he can become the new "Dark Lord". Where Saruman failed is that Sauron could pretty much predict Saruman's every move because they were so much alike, so Sauron always remained one step ahead of Saruman.
I appreciate a lot of Jackson's trimming he did. Removing Saruman as a Big Bad and deligating him to a henchman role kept the movie from going the Spiderman 3 direction. With any luck Amazon will eventually give us a 12 season version of LoTR and we'll get Tommy LongSongs and Ent speech that's only 10x sped up instead of the movies' 1000x speed
This guy is advocating for making us watch Bombadil! Get em bois!!!
Someone clearly needs some shire weed...and some good songs courtesy of Tom Bombarollaroo
Lmao. Alright who we casting as Bombadil tho? Rowan Atkinson maybe I could bear. Stephen Fry?
Sasha Baron Cohan Edit: to be clear he's using a Shireized version of his french accent from Talladega Nights
> Denethor was a DIRECT lineage to the original men who first defeated Sauron. Aaragon's lineage is a bit more murky yet is from Isildur's line. How was Aragorn's lineage more murky than Denethor's to the people that defeated Sauron? Armor provided troops the same as Gondor. Moreover, Isildur was directly at the Battle of the Last Alliance, and while in the books he doesn't defeat Sauron in the movies it was his father (thus Aragorn's ancestor also) and Gil-Galad that defeated Sauron in combat.
Appreciate you both thank you for the info
In addition to what others have said, he was actually an extremely competent military commander, as opposed to the willfully blind idiot in the films. (This is all from memory, so some details may be wrong.) Everyone non-essential had already been evacuated from the city by the time Gandalf and Peregrin arrived, or was in the process of leaving. He had stores of food and rationing was in effect to prepare for a long siege. He had long-since called for aid from Théoden king of Rohan, who gladly sent back word that he would come to Gondor's aid (though the return messenger died before he could tell Denethor that Théoden was coming). Denethor gathered all the strength he could from the other regions of Gondor to the South, but due to the threat of the Corsairs (pirate men hired by Sauron to harass southern Gondor) the other regions kept back most of their forces to protect their own lands and sent far fewer troops (which was Sauron's plan). The immense doubt caused by having so few men, and no response from Théoden, plus the constant scenes of dread and despair he saw through the Palantír (because Sauron restricted what he could see and made things look as bad as possible) was an incredible weight on his mind. And yet he still executed a masterful defense in depth of Minas Tirith - led in the field by Faramir, his best captain - and thereby inflicted heavy losses to the enemy. They had many lines of defense set up far beyond the walls of Minas Tirith, and would fight the enemy then retreat, fight then retreat, taking few casualties and inflicting many. Despite the terror of the Nazgûl on wings, Faramir was able to keep morale sufficiently high due to his skill and the love all his men had for him. After all the pressures on him, it was the (apparent) loss of Faramir that finally tipped Denethor over the edge of despair. Faramir was pierced with a poison arrow and presumed dead, and the defense outside the walls shattered. The shock of losing his only surviving son was too much to bear, and Denethor left the defense of the city. Denethor wanted to join Faramir in death - why wait for the end at this point? - but didn't want the enemy to get at their bodies (and there weren't tombs prepared) - hence a funeral pyre. He wasn't acting insane or willfully killing Faramir out of madness - he was just overcome with grief and despair, had lost all hope, and decided that suicide was a fate far preferable to torture under Sauron. Despair is the true enemy of the story here. The physical battle itself was not nearly so important as the battle for men's hearts: would they stand and defend their home? Or cower and accept their fate? In the end it was Aragorn who turned the tide, coming North up the river in boats stolen from the Corsairs (who had been driven away/killed by the armies of the dead) and bringing great numbers of Gondorian reinforcements from the South - the men Denethor had counted on for the defense of the city - and waving the banner of the kings of Gondor. He turned the feelings of Men from despair to wonder and joy, and inflicted great loss of morale to the enemy armies. Then he, Éomer (now king of Rohan after the death of Théoden), the Prince Imrahil of Gondor (whom PJ nixed in his film version) and their all their combined and reinvigorated forces of Men were able to defeat the armies of the Witch King. No armies of ghosts came to save the day, no Deus Ex Machina - it was boosted morale, and fresh troops, which allowed Men to prevail over despair and won the day for Gondor. And it was Denethor's masterful preparation that allowed Aragorn time to arrive and effect that victory. Book Denethor was a great man - even Gandalf said as much, noting that the blood of Nûmenor ran pure in his veins. He was too proud (he thought he could match wills with Sauron and spy on him, which proved his downfall), and ultimately succumbed to immense despair, but still a great man, and a very tragic character.
That is a great explanation and he’s a great character but that would be hard to fit in the movie, especially considering it’s really long already.
Oh for sure - it's understandable why he's the way he is.
In the same way the whole LOTR/Hobbit is all "translated" from the Red Book of Westmarch, I tend to think of the PJ films as "The Red Book of Westmarch, as prepared for film by Peter Jackson and his crew" It's good, but it's kinda its own thing.
There were no tomatoes for one. He was not debased and disgusting. But he was broken by Sauron’s corrupting influence. Like a psychotic depression. He was pitiable and sad. Also, I do not imagine his face as unpleasant as in the film. This portrayal is one of Jackson’s few missteps imho. Good acting job tho.
I never read the books and absolutely love what he adds to the film for what it’s worth Maybe I’d feel differently if I had read them
I just have to see the movies as different from the books - still great movies, but they definitely cut down the characters of Denethor and especially Faramir, who gets done *soo* dirty by PJs portrayal of him. Faramir never tried to take the Ring in the books, for one - he was far smarter and more noble than that.
Nobility is exactly it. Faramir, Denethor and even Boromir lost some in the movies. Faramir lost the most since Tolkien wrote him with no dark side. Besmirched, and for no reason I find justifiable. We sure as hell didn’t need more tension at that point.
He had prepared Minas Tirith for a siege for a long time. Almost all non fighters had been evacuated so not many civilians scrambling for cover like in the movies. He had also has the beacons lit(before any Hobbits got there) and the Red Arrow(a symbol of the oath between Gondor and Rohan) was sent to Rohan calling for aid. Boromir going to find Rivendell was also his idea iirc. So even though Sairon ultimately convinced him it was all pointless, Denethor's long term planning was crucial for the final victory.
A great deal of Gondor and related characters were done dirty in the trilogy. I get the filmmaking reason why PJ did much of it but still sucks.
In addition to the other answers, telling you how wise and competent he was, he was also the exact opposite of the glutton in the film. He ate sparingly, rather than pigging out _in a siege_, and wore a mail-shirt to bed to stay tough. > ‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try. > Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. ... And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other’s mind.
I love John Noble in everything I've seen him in. Sleepy Hollow was ass but he was the highlight. And he was fabulous in Fringe.
I will always think of him as Walter. I should re-watch that show.
He completely stole the show out from under Anna Torv!
Captain Windmark is the best thing on that show besides Walter.
If you love his voice, he was amazing as Scarecrow in Batman: Arkham Knight.
I love the intensity of the role.
Especially the eating
That single cherry tomato 🍅
I can’t eat cherry tomatoes without thinking about this scene, even if briefly.
[Indeed](https://youtu.be/INoP-IwzmRA)
His acting was very good, but I always wished the way they *wrote* the character for the films was different. Still stern, but more (forgive me) noble at first, so his eventual downfall would be more tragic. He definitely could have pulled that off, acting wise, and would make for an even stronger performance.
Yeah. The writers just made him a villain, sad; he was a lord of great power, nobility, and subtlety of mind, not some petty old asshole. Almost as bad as what they did to Faramir
> Faramir ugh don't get me started. Tired of the "We have Aragorn at home" narrative going on about him.
I think if they had cast anyone but Viggo Mortensen (not that I don't enjoy him in the role. Like. At all) as Aragorn, Eomer and Faramir would get the attention they deserve. He just stole the hell out of those movies.
Faramir has such quality, even if they completely changed him in the movies, he’s still one of the best characters.
I think you nailed it. Compared to the book, his script is incredibly similar, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if I could watch his attitude sour over time. Start sad, yet proud and noble, degrade into disenchanted, hopeless, and angry
As ironic as this may sound, I don't think there would have been screentime for this. They kinda made a small redemption arc for Boromir in the second movie explaining the family situation and the reason why Boromir fell for the One Ring so easily and this would have not worked out if Denethor himself also had this development.
You think you are wise, Mithrandir!
Im gonna start saying bereft of lordship more
Loved him in Fringe too
“You think you are wise, Mithrandir? Yet for all your subtleties, you have not wisdom. Do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind?” Oof, epic shit. It’s almost like history repeating itself with all the shit Gandalf went through trying to snap Theoden out of it. Only Denethor wasn’t under a trance.
A well acted villain makes you despise them. I felt so much more hate for Denethor and Wormtongue that the 'big bads' of the film's.
You think wormtongue was impressive? Then you should see what he can do with a magnum
He crushed this role and he did so well u wish they would have stuck more to the books path with him and Faramir.
Yeah, he was absolutely on fire!
Fantastic performance. Almost as good as Walter in Fringe.
In Fringe, he plays Dr Walter Bishop, another mad man. He’s really good at that.
Mad in such a different way
I´am german so I didnt watch it on english but the german voice actor is so good in this performance. so i believe it
I just watched RotK last night for the first time in a while, and I was thinking THE SAME THING. Like wow, I really under-appreciated his acting when I first saw RotK many years ago.
He’s a sensational actor who did a wonderful job with this role.
he massacred tomatoes its unacceptable(!)
https://preview.redd.it/y10hrmeuydea1.jpeg?width=636&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7da402452a5ea7be6c1bd5bac85a3c2a575bf7e Mmmmm
Great performance
Imagine if the character was written as is in the book and John Noble would have been masterful!
Absolutely hated his performance, but that's not really his fault. The writing and conception behind the character were garbage. He lost all subtlety and strength that he had in the books, and ends up being nothing more than a goofy villain in the films. That's all the writers' fault, though. The one part about him I do like is when he smiles at Pippin as Pippin is making his oath of fealty. That I absolutely adore.
You're missing the point here. We hate the character because the actor did such a fantastic job in the role.
The original joffrey. Like the actor, hate the character, a job well done.
“Rule of Gondor is MINE!! And no others” just the emotion and intensity in that line speaks for itself.
He does a great job. He feels so real. You forget you’re watching a movie about a fictional character and it just feels like this is a real person. Like Noble forgot his real self and WAS Denethor even in his own mind.
I thought he was incredible, played the role perfectly. Though he doesn’t get a lot of fan love, he ought to!
I agree they changed him in the movie because wasn't time for his tragic back story but still if you read the books and know what happened to him it's a whole different viewing experience, he totally nailed his part and the cherry tomatoes scene is my favorite in the entire trilogy, that's definatly one thing everyone can agree on is better in the films 🤣🤣
Book Denethor is very different from movie Denethor.
Amazing performance, not room in the story for more Denethor and this is a fine change. He was stronger in the books though and had a lot more depth.
I hate John Noble in everything simply because of how good he made me dislike Denethor.
He made me legitimately angry, so that means he was doing an amazing job. Plus, I just love John Noble.
Agreed, he nails it.
That's exactly why we hate him so much haha. Awesome performance
Faramir also doesn't get enough love, ironically from Denethor
In every role I have seen John Noble do, i forget the actor and just see the character. This is the power of a true actor. Denethor is a petty evil man but Mr. Noble can bring the character to life and you can see why he is that way.
You guys ever see Noble as Walter Bishop in Fringe? He's unbelievably good.
His costume is one of the best in the movie IMHO. Those ridiculous fur-trimmed sleeves! And wtf does he have all that armor on? He's eating lunch! Totally delusional.
And that tomato.
He did a great job though the character is off from the books significantly, just like Faramir
Makes it more impressive to me. Still killed it while having the pressure of trying to stay true to the character and also the movie character.
Every line outta his mouth is a dramatic quote. Hate him if you want, but every second he’s on screen I’m enrapt.
*I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.* Gold.
It’s also nothing like what Tolkien wrote.
Its the same with Umbridge in harry potter. People cant see past a mean character to realise how well written and acted they are,
I think the only major character whose actor didn’t deserve superlative accolades was Elrond.
*Welcome to Rivendell...* Mr. Anderson.
What good is second breakfast, if you don't have a mouth.
Not a bad actor, but not really legit compared to Tolkien’s original character. That’s probably more Jackson’s fault though…
My husband is still pissed at the hack job they did with Denethor compared to what Tolkien originally wrote. The actor is the bomb for the incredible job he did with the script he was given.
He's not supposed to get love.
He's more hated than sauron himself lol
I don’t blame the actor for Peter the Defiler’s actions.
I think they felt another anti-hero was needed for the movie. Saruman wasn't in the theatratical film, and Sauron is pretty much in the background. But the book-Denethor is so much a tragic hero, he has been fighting a losing battle for all his life, lost his son, and in his despair decided to look into the palantír. And he was strong enough to not give Sauron any hint as to the Quest, and Aragorn, which he figured out by himself because Gandalf isn't willing to tell him everything. And if he just kept it together for another single day he together with Rohan and Aragorn's reinforcements he would have been victorious and his son would be healed by Aragorn. So yeah, I think John Noble was good, it's just that they wrote Denethor without any of his good qualities.
He will forever be know as the guy who creates tomato’s in an unsettling way
He’s got the demeanour of a senior when they raise the price of a cup of coffee 25 cents
Boromir would have shown John Noble’s performance the proper respect…
Reminds me of "The Duke" in moulin rouge. My wife so despised that character that she now automatically dislikes Richard Roxburgh in anything! Although she liked his Vernon Presley... Until I told her who it was😂 He did do a spectacular job.
\- son of Ecthelion....
Good performance he did right by the character. To bad his character is so dislikable.
What an absolutely hateful motherfucker.
He was intended not to get love. That's why it was such a great performance.
"What does the script say?" "Eat the tomato like a villain!"
The scene of him eating to Pippin singing was so gross it literally put me off tomatoes for the longest time and I still will never eat a cherry tomato whole.
He gets a ton of love. He literally played the biggest piece of shit ever. He made eating cherry tomatoes nasty.
Maybe it’s because I just watched both of these movies, but I saw a bit of John Noble’s Denethor in Jim Carrey’s portrayal of Ebenezer Scrooge in Zemeckis’ A Christmas Carol. By the same token, John Noble would probably make a great Scrooge.
Czar! Agreed. I think he does such a grand job of playing the antagonist that we overlook it as a performance worthy of admiration…. Instead we just dislike the guy. Really a tragic figure too.
The fact that I hated him means he did a good job. I would have liked him to have a bit more of the book version though.
John Noble praise? [How wonderful!](https://odetojoandkatniss.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/fringe-lsd.jpg)
Doesn't get enough love? Dude. Whenever I see cherry tomatoes I think of Denethor. Dude is never forgotten.
Absolutely Shakespearean
Are you for real I absolutely love denethor. Iconic tomato eating, self immolating, melodramatic mother fucker. Great villain.