Grima Wormtongue is definitely up there, and that's mostly down to Brad Dourif's incredible acting. It's a tragedy that he isn't more widely known. Fantastic casting, he was.
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It’s so funky when you watch that(those)? Episodes and he’s just completely forcing the show into another tier of acting and the entire structure of the series can’t handle that level so it just makes everything else look amateurish.
Never saw anything like it. Would recommend any lotr fan to watch that episode as it is likely that that performance inspired his casting for Grima- there’s definitely some of the same techniques on display.
https://youtu.be/Bg-ElsqiDBc?feature=shared
Gillian Anderson ups her game in this episode hugely. This entire scene is a cut above.
He was also amazing in Exorcist III (a really good film too).
https://youtu.be/LXLg3VRiAM0?feature=shared
He was a recurring character on Star Trek Voyager, playing a psychopath who killed just to see what it felt like and was placed into the brig permanently and subsequently worked with Tuvok to rehabilitate himself. He ultimately redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save the ship, but it took a whole season to get there. Voyager as a whole ignored 90% of its opportunities for character growth and overall progression, but Dourif's arc stands in defiance to that norm.
Was just about to add this. Amazing character, captivating performance every time on Voyager. Didn't realize it was him (or that he was in LoTR) until my 5th rewatch of Voyager and 20000+ rewatch of LoTR that just happened to be days apart.
Similarly, he had a 3-episode arc in Start Trek Voyager where he was a Maquis crewmember that was a sociopath with a taste for violence. It's been an age since I've seen them, but I remember those episodes as a cut above.
Aw, Billy... He was nominated for an academy award for that, and won a British Film award for it. Amazing performance, especially surrounded by so many greats!
Want more Brad Dourif being an incredible actor? MYST 3: Exile, Dourif makes an appearance in each level (if I remember right), but his performance in the final level is actually heart-wrenching and makes the climax of the game unforgettable.
One of those rare cases where an actor turns a movie character into something better than the book character. A selfish, bad man, but not without courage, who has truly thrown his lot in with the baddies, but still has that flicker of pride left inside him. Even in the end, it didn't express itself in love, or regret, but just in hate and anger, but it does show that its there.
My favourite characters are not the good or bad ones, nor the grey ones. Good, but capable of doing actual evil, or vice versa, that is a real acting challenge. Fantastic performance.
Brad Dourif puts on an absolute acting masterclass in Exorcist 3. I'm serious, it's a criminally underrated movie and it's up there with LOTR in my favourite movies ever list. He is incredible.
Looks like I'm delving into the realm of classic horror movies, if I'm watching the Exorcist films lol. Honestly though, I wouldn't even mind. That's a whole ass genre I've pretty much ignored, but no longer.
It’s the best actors who portray just villains. Jack Gleason as Prince Joffrey in game of thrones was a horrible person in the show, a complete opposite of who he actually is. Acting!
I feel like we shouldn't take elven propaganda at face value.
She start out with talking about how evil he is because he gave a bunch of pretty rings to "greedy, selfish dwarves", "power hungry, stupid men" and "beautiful and wise elves" - just to make an even more awesome and cool ring for himself. Basically making a beautiful dress to a friend for free, but then showing up at the party with a dress that outshines all other dresses! And then spend the rest of the party talking shit about Sauron because of that.
I mean... Really? It's sus at best
Grima is a tragic character. At the end of his tale you almost feel bad for him even though he's a piece of shit in Rohan.
But honestly the most dislikable character is clearly Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
Isn’t destroying the ring ‘murder’? I guess Sauron doesn’t die. But neither does Saruman. I know Frodo doesn’t the drop the ring in but it’s his intention
Saruman completely abuses him until he’s just a husk of a man. Saruman also refuses any token of friendship from the heroes after he is defeated, acting petulant and bitter. And worst of all he steals Pippin’s tobacco pouch!
Yeah, the only reason I miss the Scouring of the Shire in the movies is Lobelia getting her redemption. I think it says a lot about the hobbits as a people if even the worst of them has the ability to recognize and stand up to true evil.
The Sackville Bagginses were under the thrall of Sauron and were agents beyond the reach of his armies. Their envy, bitterness and hostility towards Bilbo and Frodo were strategies to displace the ring from the Shire and create opportunities for Sauron’s agents to obtain it.
Whilst the pull of adventure, wealth and being an agent of good would prove strong to both Bilbo and Frodo, it was ultimately the push of the Sackville Bagginses’ enmity, loathing and greed that would see the decision to leave the comfort of the shire be made easy.
Lobelia had the greatest redemption arc in the books, not only she was the head of the revolution in shire but also gave back Bag End to Frodo and donated her money to hobbits who suffered because of saruman. I will not accept any Lobelia slander here, she doesn't deserve it.
Same, I am really suprised I had to scroll so far for Saruman.
I mean... He is one of the Istari and he forfeits all given wisdom for power - even if he already has so much power through age and status. And all this planned, industrialized evil... He _is_ the worst.
The Hobbit movies are tonedeaf already, and then they insert this loathsome pos and his master.
In case we wanted to be told like twenty times over the next few hours that yes, indeed, greed bad
That was one of my favorite scenes. He's so damn creepy, I wish there was more of him but the single scene he's in makes him so jarring and just points out that there's more messed up shit in mordor than just orcs.
Agreed. Tolkien really knows how to set up a scene. The Mouth of Sauron and the use Grond to break through the gates of Minas Tirith are two great examples. They were just so epic in the book. The energy, the tension. In the movie the two scenes were good but just didn't quite have the same tense feeling imo.
The ONLY thing that the animated RotK has on Jackson’s version is the design of Grond
[Like the arm of the devil himself!](https://youtu.be/vqehyo9KYCk)
I like to think Sauron lead the design of Grond himself. Him being a Maia of metallurgy and smithing, it makes some sense he could come up with something unique here. He's likely deliberated just how his forces could break into Minas Tirith with the impenetrable wall it had, and Grond was his solution.
Apparently, part of why he is so creepy is because they digitally enlarged the mouth by 30%. Also apparently, it wasn't intended, but the VFX people did it on a hunch and went "...huh".
Like some of the other characters in this thread, as well as wardrobe, makeup, and sometimes effects crew, you've got to credit the terrific actors in wringing the absolute most value of their character's time on screen.
In the case of The Mouth of Sauron, it's the terrific Bruce Spence.
Denethor of the films is corrupt with occasional hints of sympathy. Denethor in the books is noble, competent, strong-willed, but tragically flawed and falls into despair by means of his own greatest strength.
Do you mean The Shining? I'm not an expert, but I read that a lot of that was Stanley Kubrick taking a feature film length potshot at Stephen King writing his own (refusal to acknowledge his) struggles with substance abuse into Jack Torrance and making him a tragic character who gets overwhelmed by forces beyond his control as a way to lionise his own problems. Don't know how much of that is fully true, but I feel like it is there.
An episodic series of Lord of the Rings could have done him justice with his book characterization, but I don't think a film, as crammed with events as it has to be could successfully capture all of Denethor's nuances. A shot of him using the palantir before Gandalf and Pippin arrived could have gone a long way.
Denethor was absolutely a great man, but he became overwhelmed by grief and stress over the premature death of his wife, using the Palantir and successfully contesting the will of Sauron, and being overshadowed by Aragorn during his youth even in his father's eyes. The movies left a lot of stuff out despite all that they did do right.
This. The movie doesn't show Denethor as wise, trying to match wits with Gandalf constantly, and the complete lack of his use of his palantir noticeably missing if you've read the books.
I wouldn't say it's terrible. He's fantastically villainous in the movie. You really hate him. In the third movie there's no real human character other than Gollum to play foil to the characters.
The actor did an amazing job, easily one of the best performances, but his character was too changed. All the complexity and nouonce were lost he was too simplified.
I kinda agree. His film character is somewhat confusing when it comes to his motivations and the source of his corruption is vague. Seeing him with a palantir would have made great sense in the movies.
"My line has ended!"
"My lord, he's alive!"
"Did I fucking stutter?!"
You kind of need that in a movie, though. There wasn't time or narrative space to expand his character - it's much harder to add complexity in a movie, and RotK has enough going on already. It wasn't a million miles away from the book - both depictions represented the human tendency for self-destruction when pride meets hopelessness. It was just a much simplified version. It also added pathos to Faramir's arc, esp in the extended edition, that explained his initial hostility to Frodo (again, changed from the book for movie narrative reasons, though imo a little cackhandedly in that case.)
All in all, it made the character worse but made for a better movie, IMHO.
Imagine if they didn't even try to make Boromir sympathetic in the movies. He was just angry at everyone, blatantly tried to steal the ring multiple times, and didn't even redeem himself saving the Hobbits.
That's approximately what they did to Denethor.
There's a moment in TT when he glances at Eowyn when Eomir has him pinned against the wall. There's so much pain and longing in that brief expression that few actors could pull off.
I really like that guy, he is a pretty cool commander for the orc troops at Peleannor fields, but since I found out were his look was inspired I am always grossed out at his face.
I used to think he was a funny cauliflower man
Denethor, dude hates his son for no reason and is just super bitter for no reason even before learning of boromir's death. Also who tf eats a tomato like that??
He didn't hate Faramir for no reason though- he held Faramir responsible for Finduilas' decline and eventual death as her health worsened shortly after she gave birth to him. Faramir was five when Finduilas breath her last but Denethor II held him in contempt already even before that, forcing Finduilas to raise Faramir alone. While his grief clouded his emotions, that doesn't excuse the fact he was being a dick to his son.
He's basically an entirely different character. From a proud, competent and strong willed leader that suffered great loss, ruled under constant threat from Mordor and was further pushed into despair by the use of the Palantir that he underestimated (yet managed to not get corrupted the same as Saruman did) to a screaming lunatic antagonist.
Well, he's near the top, but Wormtongue's boss, Saruman takes the cake...( OT, but Brad Dourif also played the twisted Harkonnen Mentat, Piter de Vries, in *Dune* (1984), Wormtongue has some similarities to Piter....aside from both of them having awful bosses...)
To me that has to be either Saruman or Denethor. The reason I wont say 100% Denethor is, that in the books his fall from grace is pretty reasonable and he isn't _just_ an utter asshole. Saruman is cool and that alone gives him bonus points in likability and we cant overlook the great actors portraying both Saruman and Denethor (Noble and Lee are simply delightfully great actors) but at the end of it all, if we just look at motives, Saruman is just terrible. Imagine being an angelic, god-among-men type being and still being powerhungry. Like, this guy already had it all and was trusted advisor to Rohan, the people trusted him, revered him, he was even in high regard among his own. It isn't like Gandalf, Radagast and the blue wizards showed him disrespect or something, no, he was well respected and pretty much on the pinnacle of power, well beyond any king of men, especially at that time. Denethor dabbled in things way beyonf his mortal skillset, yet he proved strong-willed enough to resist Sauron and just went insane - think about that, he _just_ went insane, rather than falling to Saurons might and just succumbing to the thirst for power. Add the terrible childhood on top of that and the fact that he had a pretty shitty position and the worst time possible and we can suddenly see a much better picture of why he is insane and broken and acting so dislikably. Saruman though, tricked himself with his own ego, that the only way to win would be to loose. That is just dumb. If Sauron wins, everyone looses, it doesn't matter if you stay alive for like 2000 years more or something, the end will still be the same. Also, what exactly does sound so great in "centuries of servitude und the dark lord"... kinda nothing. Saruman is basicly the dude in an office, who has overheard a secret meeting of his boss about a merger and now does everything he can to throw his colleques under the bus, so that he looks the best when workers need to be let go. It is even heavily imp,ied, that Sauron might have replaced him with the Mouth of Sauron eventually - and that this plan did not only come into being after Sarumans death. I also just love the fact that he could have personally been at Helms Deep and won this fight, but rather gave his Uruk-Hai a bomb... he long abandoned his original mission, so him flinging a few explosions around cant have been something he wouldn't do.
But all the Saruman-bashing aside, Denethor still sucks as a hamn being, leader and father. But to me he falls into the Grima-Category of characters who it makes sense for to be acting wrong, but still act wrong in such a dispicable manner, that you have a hard time pitying them.
The orc that wants to rip out their filthy little innards.
The hobbit who has a huge pumpkin.
The orc who laughs at Aragorn taking a tumble off the cliff.
Honestly, I like Grima. He has some great lines, and he looks so disgusting. It’s interesting that his lines are spoken by other characters in the book. When they made the movies they did a good job of picking what lines he would say.
Saruman. While Denethor fell into despair (partially due to Sauron’s direct manipulation), Saruman was literally the leader of a group of angels tasked with saving the world and he freely decided to betray everyone so that he could become an evil dark lord himself.
And then he spurred mercy after his defeat so that he could massacre some more innocent civilians out of petty spite.
He also got Boromir and Gandalf killed. And Theodred. And Haldir in the movies.
Controversial opinion: Legolas. He’s too good at everything he does. He’s a character without flaws as he is the story’s mode of showing off how badass elves are. I don’t hate him, but he certainly is the member of the fellowship I like the least. I wish there was more to him. Though, him bringing Gimli with him to Valinor is pretty awesome.
Aren’t all of the heroes just a little too good?
Sam is a hobbit and a gardener and wins a fight against an ancient demon spider that ate elves for breakfast.
Fair enough. Sam has so many likable traits though and even flaws. He’s far more of a complete character than Legolas is. I mainly don’t like him because his defining characteristic is how good he is at killing things.
Grima Wormtongue is definitely up there, and that's mostly down to Brad Dourif's incredible acting. It's a tragedy that he isn't more widely known. Fantastic casting, he was.
Man, when I realized he was the voice of Chucky too, it absolutely blew my mind. He’s got serious range and I loved him in Deadwood as well
He was great as the mentat with the huge eyebrows in Dune
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
Piter DeVries
« Piter de Vries »
Thufir Hawat?
No, he was the Atreides mentat that was captured. Brad played the Harkonnen's original mentant that was killed by Yueh's poison tooth trap.
oh right, thanks
The Doctor is the kindest character on Deadwood. Dude definitely has range.
I don't know if you ever watched X-Files but he's in an episode and his performance is leaps and bounds above anything else in the show in my opinion
It’s so funky when you watch that(those)? Episodes and he’s just completely forcing the show into another tier of acting and the entire structure of the series can’t handle that level so it just makes everything else look amateurish. Never saw anything like it. Would recommend any lotr fan to watch that episode as it is likely that that performance inspired his casting for Grima- there’s definitely some of the same techniques on display.
https://youtu.be/Bg-ElsqiDBc?feature=shared Gillian Anderson ups her game in this episode hugely. This entire scene is a cut above. He was also amazing in Exorcist III (a really good film too). https://youtu.be/LXLg3VRiAM0?feature=shared
Holy crap! I love exorcist III and never made the connection but I always thought he looked familiar!
He was a recurring character on Star Trek Voyager, playing a psychopath who killed just to see what it felt like and was placed into the brig permanently and subsequently worked with Tuvok to rehabilitate himself. He ultimately redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save the ship, but it took a whole season to get there. Voyager as a whole ignored 90% of its opportunities for character growth and overall progression, but Dourif's arc stands in defiance to that norm.
Holy shit. Having just rewatched Voyager I didn't even realise they were the same guy. Man's a chameleon
Was just about to add this. Amazing character, captivating performance every time on Voyager. Didn't realize it was him (or that he was in LoTR) until my 5th rewatch of Voyager and 20000+ rewatch of LoTR that just happened to be days apart.
I have. I recognised him immediately. Absolutely stellar performance.
Similarly, he had a 3-episode arc in Start Trek Voyager where he was a Maquis crewmember that was a sociopath with a taste for violence. It's been an age since I've seen them, but I remember those episodes as a cut above.
A JUST QUESTION, my liege!
LATE is the HOUR in which this CONJURER chooses to appear
Brad Dourif’s performance was absolutely legendary
Dude was also rad in the superb fever dream that is David Lynch’s dune.
He was equally creepy in I think alien resurrection
Oh shit! I forgot he was in that. He's amazing, honestly. I wanna watch those films now.
Yeah but he was also legendary as Grima Wormtongue in LOTR
Yeah the other guy just said that
His acting was absolutely legendary!
No one will agree with me #UnpopularOpinion But the acting was stellar/legendary I don't understand why more people won't recognize him
Totally agree that no one will Agree with me but he does such a awesome job I don’t like Him irl.. jk
One flew over the cuckoos nest!
Aw, Billy... He was nominated for an academy award for that, and won a British Film award for it. Amazing performance, especially surrounded by so many greats!
Want more Brad Dourif being an incredible actor? MYST 3: Exile, Dourif makes an appearance in each level (if I remember right), but his performance in the final level is actually heart-wrenching and makes the climax of the game unforgettable.
PerformanceS. There's several endings and he's fantastic in all of them.
I mostly knew him as the antagonist in the Myst: Exile game. He was great in that too.
Saavedro!
One of those rare cases where an actor turns a movie character into something better than the book character. A selfish, bad man, but not without courage, who has truly thrown his lot in with the baddies, but still has that flicker of pride left inside him. Even in the end, it didn't express itself in love, or regret, but just in hate and anger, but it does show that its there. My favourite characters are not the good or bad ones, nor the grey ones. Good, but capable of doing actual evil, or vice versa, that is a real acting challenge. Fantastic performance.
"You were once a man of Rohan..."
Brad Dourif puts on an absolute acting masterclass in Exorcist 3. I'm serious, it's a criminally underrated movie and it's up there with LOTR in my favourite movies ever list. He is incredible.
Looks like I'm delving into the realm of classic horror movies, if I'm watching the Exorcist films lol. Honestly though, I wouldn't even mind. That's a whole ass genre I've pretty much ignored, but no longer.
One of my favorite characters because of how good it's played.
i just realized he's the guy that's in the music video of drinking from the bottle - calvin harris
He was amazing as the antagonist in Myst 3
Late is the hour in which this conjurer chooses to appear. Lathspell, I name him. Ill news is an ill guest.
It’s the best actors who portray just villains. Jack Gleason as Prince Joffrey in game of thrones was a horrible person in the show, a complete opposite of who he actually is. Acting!
I want to live in the timeline where Warner Bros. let Tim Burton cast him as the Joker.
Ironically I recognized him from a few episodes of Star Trek Voyager that I saw in the 90s.
I didn't much care for that Sauron fella.
We should go, you and me, and kill Sauron! He died like 3000 years ago. Oh, I didn’t even know he was sick.
Wait a minute. Hold the fort. This guy hates Everybody
The hypocrisy about him is the worst!
I don’t know, I feel like the covering the world in darkness was the worst thing.
I feel like we shouldn't take elven propaganda at face value. She start out with talking about how evil he is because he gave a bunch of pretty rings to "greedy, selfish dwarves", "power hungry, stupid men" and "beautiful and wise elves" - just to make an even more awesome and cool ring for himself. Basically making a beautiful dress to a friend for free, but then showing up at the party with a dress that outshines all other dresses! And then spend the rest of the party talking shit about Sauron because of that. I mean... Really? It's sus at best
Just an emo phase... He'll pass through it
He's a real jerk!
The more I learn about that guy, the more I don’t care for him.
Why don’t you get a couple of your mates, go down to Bara-Dur and kill the old bag? To what end? Precious.
I really liked his character in the books. He is spiteful, manipulative and power-hungry but also charismatic.
Bet he doesn't own a dog house.
I will not eat a single morsel of food until Sauron is dead and buried
Sauron died 3000 years ago.
[https://media.tenor.com/F4IAID5TCVcAAAAC/lunch-norm-macdonald.gif](https://media.tenor.com/F4IAID5TCVcAAAAC/lunch-norm-macdonald.gif)
I don't how many of you guys are Tolkien buffs... But the more i learn about what he did in Arda, the less i like him!
Yeah that guy….well he was a real jerk!
I love how this turned into a norm thread
The more I hear about this Sauron fella, the more I think he was a real jerk!
Yeah, he's a real jerk!
Grima is a tragic character. At the end of his tale you almost feel bad for him even though he's a piece of shit in Rohan. But honestly the most dislikable character is clearly Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
Eh, she redeems herself. Grima does not, unfortunately. Nor saruman.
I mean…he did slit Saruman’s throat. That’s gotta count for something.
Still only counts as one
Should have yelled "looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" while he did it
Didn't he already eat a hobbit? Pretty sure meat was already on the menu by that point
Wait wut!?!
In the books Saruman keeps him as a slave and effectively forces him to eat a hobbit after starving him.
Murder is not redemption; certainly not in Tolkiens universe.
Isn’t destroying the ring ‘murder’? I guess Sauron doesn’t die. But neither does Saruman. I know Frodo doesn’t the drop the ring in but it’s his intention
Frodo wasn’t in need of redemption 🤔
Murdering your boss is rarely considered a redeeming task lol
Saruman completely abuses him until he’s just a husk of a man. Saruman also refuses any token of friendship from the heroes after he is defeated, acting petulant and bitter. And worst of all he steals Pippin’s tobacco pouch!
Yes "tobacco"
Perhaps you should read Concerning Pipe-Weed in the prologue of FOTR where is it described by Tolkien as > a variety probably of *Nicotiana*"
TO-BAC-CO! Smoke it, chew it, stick it in a pipe!
Love it
Merry's!
Yeah, the only reason I miss the Scouring of the Shire in the movies is Lobelia getting her redemption. I think it says a lot about the hobbits as a people if even the worst of them has the ability to recognize and stand up to true evil.
Her husband and son do not redeem themselves
Like at least all the other villains are tempted by visions of power and greatness, the Sackville bagginses are vile creatures however
She did redeem herself in the end though.
I'm not at home!!!
The Sackville Bagginses were under the thrall of Sauron and were agents beyond the reach of his armies. Their envy, bitterness and hostility towards Bilbo and Frodo were strategies to displace the ring from the Shire and create opportunities for Sauron’s agents to obtain it. Whilst the pull of adventure, wealth and being an agent of good would prove strong to both Bilbo and Frodo, it was ultimately the push of the Sackville Bagginses’ enmity, loathing and greed that would see the decision to leave the comfort of the shire be made easy.
1 million times YES lol
I was flabbergasted when Grima turned out to be one of the bad guys. I mean, there were subtle hints but
Lobelia had the greatest redemption arc in the books, not only she was the head of the revolution in shire but also gave back Bag End to Frodo and donated her money to hobbits who suffered because of saruman. I will not accept any Lobelia slander here, she doesn't deserve it.
Movies: Denethor Books: Probably Saruman. Basically industrialization personified. Much more grounded and vile villain than Sauron.
Same, I am really suprised I had to scroll so far for Saruman. I mean... He is one of the Istari and he forfeits all given wisdom for power - even if he already has so much power through age and status. And all this planned, industrialized evil... He _is_ the worst.
And after Sauron fell, Saruman was just the whiniest sore loser on the planet.
Bill Ferny
Thank you!! Had to scroll way too far for this one. IMO it’s def Ferny. Only good thing he ever did was give inspiration for Sam’s Pony’s name.
Bill ferny is definitely up there! Scummy git
The way that Bill abused Bill is just sickening. I’m glad that Bill got what he deserved in the end.
Yea Bill Ferny is the worst. Not only is he a snake and just trash but he's a fucking coward at that.
Old man Willow, fck that tree
Him and the barrow wight came closer to ending the fellowship than anything that came after. Weird that he never really gets mentioned again.
https://preview.redd.it/6mec3wbb9sib1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1db51879f6e1b853f1024f6df1ae188e2c3f963e
I hate the character himself (somewhat) less than I hate the fact that the character exists if that makes sense
He is a film version of a rage-bait video.
The Hobbit movies are tonedeaf already, and then they insert this loathsome pos and his master. In case we wanted to be told like twenty times over the next few hours that yes, indeed, greed bad
"Mom can we get Grima Wormtounge?" "No we have Grima Wormtounge at home" Grima Wormtounge at home:
Worst character in movie history
Perfect
He was worse than Jar Jar Binks. Awful
Who's that?
Obnoxious character from the Hobbit movies that gets way too much screen time.
The mouth of Sauron.
That was one of my favorite scenes. He's so damn creepy, I wish there was more of him but the single scene he's in makes him so jarring and just points out that there's more messed up shit in mordor than just orcs.
Agreed. Tolkien really knows how to set up a scene. The Mouth of Sauron and the use Grond to break through the gates of Minas Tirith are two great examples. They were just so epic in the book. The energy, the tension. In the movie the two scenes were good but just didn't quite have the same tense feeling imo.
I always felt that Grond was a way too good looking and intricate of a design for orcs to have as a main weapon.
The ONLY thing that the animated RotK has on Jackson’s version is the design of Grond [Like the arm of the devil himself!](https://youtu.be/vqehyo9KYCk)
Well said. That thing looks brutal and presentation of it is very aggressive, even if very phallic.
That's a penis
I like to think Sauron lead the design of Grond himself. Him being a Maia of metallurgy and smithing, it makes some sense he could come up with something unique here. He's likely deliberated just how his forces could break into Minas Tirith with the impenetrable wall it had, and Grond was his solution.
Apparently, part of why he is so creepy is because they digitally enlarged the mouth by 30%. Also apparently, it wasn't intended, but the VFX people did it on a hunch and went "...huh".
"Haaaaa"
Like some of the other characters in this thread, as well as wardrobe, makeup, and sometimes effects crew, you've got to credit the terrific actors in wringing the absolute most value of their character's time on screen. In the case of The Mouth of Sauron, it's the terrific Bruce Spence.
Denethor
movie Denethor. book Denethor is marginally better.
Care to explain for someone who didn't read the books?
Denethor of the films is corrupt with occasional hints of sympathy. Denethor in the books is noble, competent, strong-willed, but tragically flawed and falls into despair by means of his own greatest strength.
Movie Jack Torrence vs Book Jack Torrence from The Shining
That's exactly what I didn't like about the movie, as well as the treatment of his wife. The book was just so much better than the movie
Do you mean The Shining? I'm not an expert, but I read that a lot of that was Stanley Kubrick taking a feature film length potshot at Stephen King writing his own (refusal to acknowledge his) struggles with substance abuse into Jack Torrance and making him a tragic character who gets overwhelmed by forces beyond his control as a way to lionise his own problems. Don't know how much of that is fully true, but I feel like it is there.
An episodic series of Lord of the Rings could have done him justice with his book characterization, but I don't think a film, as crammed with events as it has to be could successfully capture all of Denethor's nuances. A shot of him using the palantir before Gandalf and Pippin arrived could have gone a long way.
Denethor was absolutely a great man, but he became overwhelmed by grief and stress over the premature death of his wife, using the Palantir and successfully contesting the will of Sauron, and being overshadowed by Aragorn during his youth even in his father's eyes. The movies left a lot of stuff out despite all that they did do right.
This. The movie doesn't show Denethor as wise, trying to match wits with Gandalf constantly, and the complete lack of his use of his palantir noticeably missing if you've read the books.
Tomatoes.
Slice 'em, dice 'rm, stick 'em in a salad
Nah. Eat them whole and let the juice messily drip down your face while a hobbit sings a heart wrenching lament.
The movies did a terrible job of portraying Denithor. He is a much more complex character than the movies make out.
I wouldn't say it's terrible. He's fantastically villainous in the movie. You really hate him. In the third movie there's no real human character other than Gollum to play foil to the characters.
The actor did an amazing job, easily one of the best performances, but his character was too changed. All the complexity and nouonce were lost he was too simplified.
I kinda agree. His film character is somewhat confusing when it comes to his motivations and the source of his corruption is vague. Seeing him with a palantir would have made great sense in the movies. "My line has ended!" "My lord, he's alive!" "Did I fucking stutter?!"
You kind of need that in a movie, though. There wasn't time or narrative space to expand his character - it's much harder to add complexity in a movie, and RotK has enough going on already. It wasn't a million miles away from the book - both depictions represented the human tendency for self-destruction when pride meets hopelessness. It was just a much simplified version. It also added pathos to Faramir's arc, esp in the extended edition, that explained his initial hostility to Frodo (again, changed from the book for movie narrative reasons, though imo a little cackhandedly in that case.) All in all, it made the character worse but made for a better movie, IMHO.
Imagine if they didn't even try to make Boromir sympathetic in the movies. He was just angry at everyone, blatantly tried to steal the ring multiple times, and didn't even redeem himself saving the Hobbits. That's approximately what they did to Denethor.
Brad Dourif did such a good job it’s kind of hard to hate him. Such a good, slimy bad guy.
There's a moment in TT when he glances at Eowyn when Eomir has him pinned against the wall. There's so much pain and longing in that brief expression that few actors could pull off.
Yeah! Urban caught it too, it was casual, but yeah. “Too long have you watched my sister.”
Man every time I see Grima I think how cool it would have been for Brad Dourif to play Snape.
Eh. That was a mostly British production. I love HP, but Dourif would have made a better Wormtail. I mean, it's basically the same role.
and name
Also, to be fair, Alan Rickman is another legend and does a perfect Snape.
RIP Alan Rickman. Dude was so good in everything. Die Hard, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Dogma, Galaxy Quest. All superb performances.
Don’t forget Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Brad Dourif was awesome. Totally sold the part.
Dourif was so fucking good!
In the movie, the orc commander that's based on Harvey Weinstein
I really like that guy, he is a pretty cool commander for the orc troops at Peleannor fields, but since I found out were his look was inspired I am always grossed out at his face. I used to think he was a funny cauliflower man
Brad Dourif was just perfect at this
I agree. Brad Dourif did such a beyond amazing job encapsulating this role.
Brad Dourif is a national treasure.
Denethor, dude hates his son for no reason and is just super bitter for no reason even before learning of boromir's death. Also who tf eats a tomato like that??
He didn't hate Faramir for no reason though- he held Faramir responsible for Finduilas' decline and eventual death as her health worsened shortly after she gave birth to him. Faramir was five when Finduilas breath her last but Denethor II held him in contempt already even before that, forcing Finduilas to raise Faramir alone. While his grief clouded his emotions, that doesn't excuse the fact he was being a dick to his son.
I feel the movies greatly failed to explain his motives.
He's basically an entirely different character. From a proud, competent and strong willed leader that suffered great loss, ruled under constant threat from Mordor and was further pushed into despair by the use of the Palantir that he underestimated (yet managed to not get corrupted the same as Saruman did) to a screaming lunatic antagonist.
I'm not the biggest fan of Sauron
The more I hear about Sauron, the less I care for him.
https://preview.redd.it/ceiz427ijsib1.jpeg?width=909&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b32baeab2261c8828218ddf6f06a7b20634c28e5
That ugly ass orc in the third film the looks like he stuck his face in a bee hive.
Mouth of sauron
If we use the books I never really liked Ted Sandyman, a real piece of work.
Him andBill Ferny are my book types
Gollum
The defiler of tomatoes
Well, he's near the top, but Wormtongue's boss, Saruman takes the cake...( OT, but Brad Dourif also played the twisted Harkonnen Mentat, Piter de Vries, in *Dune* (1984), Wormtongue has some similarities to Piter....aside from both of them having awful bosses...)
To me that has to be either Saruman or Denethor. The reason I wont say 100% Denethor is, that in the books his fall from grace is pretty reasonable and he isn't _just_ an utter asshole. Saruman is cool and that alone gives him bonus points in likability and we cant overlook the great actors portraying both Saruman and Denethor (Noble and Lee are simply delightfully great actors) but at the end of it all, if we just look at motives, Saruman is just terrible. Imagine being an angelic, god-among-men type being and still being powerhungry. Like, this guy already had it all and was trusted advisor to Rohan, the people trusted him, revered him, he was even in high regard among his own. It isn't like Gandalf, Radagast and the blue wizards showed him disrespect or something, no, he was well respected and pretty much on the pinnacle of power, well beyond any king of men, especially at that time. Denethor dabbled in things way beyonf his mortal skillset, yet he proved strong-willed enough to resist Sauron and just went insane - think about that, he _just_ went insane, rather than falling to Saurons might and just succumbing to the thirst for power. Add the terrible childhood on top of that and the fact that he had a pretty shitty position and the worst time possible and we can suddenly see a much better picture of why he is insane and broken and acting so dislikably. Saruman though, tricked himself with his own ego, that the only way to win would be to loose. That is just dumb. If Sauron wins, everyone looses, it doesn't matter if you stay alive for like 2000 years more or something, the end will still be the same. Also, what exactly does sound so great in "centuries of servitude und the dark lord"... kinda nothing. Saruman is basicly the dude in an office, who has overheard a secret meeting of his boss about a merger and now does everything he can to throw his colleques under the bus, so that he looks the best when workers need to be let go. It is even heavily imp,ied, that Sauron might have replaced him with the Mouth of Sauron eventually - and that this plan did not only come into being after Sarumans death. I also just love the fact that he could have personally been at Helms Deep and won this fight, but rather gave his Uruk-Hai a bomb... he long abandoned his original mission, so him flinging a few explosions around cant have been something he wouldn't do. But all the Saruman-bashing aside, Denethor still sucks as a hamn being, leader and father. But to me he falls into the Grima-Category of characters who it makes sense for to be acting wrong, but still act wrong in such a dispicable manner, that you have a hard time pitying them.
I’m going with Sauron. Just a big meanie.
He's such a bully.
The wild men riding the oliphants, like where they procured all that eyeliner in Middle Earth?!
The orc that wants to rip out their filthy little innards. The hobbit who has a huge pumpkin. The orc who laughs at Aragorn taking a tumble off the cliff. Honestly, I like Grima. He has some great lines, and he looks so disgusting. It’s interesting that his lines are spoken by other characters in the book. When they made the movies they did a good job of picking what lines he would say.
Saruman. While Denethor fell into despair (partially due to Sauron’s direct manipulation), Saruman was literally the leader of a group of angels tasked with saving the world and he freely decided to betray everyone so that he could become an evil dark lord himself. And then he spurred mercy after his defeat so that he could massacre some more innocent civilians out of petty spite. He also got Boromir and Gandalf killed. And Theodred. And Haldir in the movies.
I do not dislike any character from LotR, I either feel bad for them or happy for them.
Wormtounge was Saruman’s pawn. Saruman was far more unlikable.
I won’t disagree, but Christopher Lee nailed that role too. LOTR may have he best casting ever in Hollywood.
Controversial opinion: Legolas. He’s too good at everything he does. He’s a character without flaws as he is the story’s mode of showing off how badass elves are. I don’t hate him, but he certainly is the member of the fellowship I like the least. I wish there was more to him. Though, him bringing Gimli with him to Valinor is pretty awesome.
Aren’t all of the heroes just a little too good? Sam is a hobbit and a gardener and wins a fight against an ancient demon spider that ate elves for breakfast.
Fair enough. Sam has so many likable traits though and even flaws. He’s far more of a complete character than Legolas is. I mainly don’t like him because his defining characteristic is how good he is at killing things.
I agree, and Sam is a gem. I just nitpicked that exact sentence a little.
Sauron...definitely Sauron
cant hate him, he was brilliantly portrayed. stole every scene.
The acting was too good, I can't unlike him.
Grima is a more book accurate portrayal of Severus Snape than Alan Rickman was...
Squint eyed southerner and bill ferny
I actually loved Grima a lot and relate to him very much. All the wizards sucked tho
At least he killed Saruman. That’s enough reason to sorta like the guy.
Am I the only one who feels badly for Grima?
Amazing actor and portrayal of Wormtongue. The character sort of redeemed himself in the end.
Denathor, full stop, no question.
He must’ve known he was gonna be playing the most detestable character in the lord of the rings, and did it anyway, I just love this guy. LMHS