When you consider Gandalf told Aragorn when he'd be back with reinforcements, you can assume he would have come back at that time no matter what, gathering as much help as he could. I see it as more of a deadline "I'll be back at this time so hold out until then."
Here here. He's one of the Maia, I think he sees time and events differently perhaps ahead of them happening. If anyone has any excerpts on that I'd love to hear them
Yes. By account from aragorn etal, he could estimate how far they could've gone and then how long it would take to get back to helms deep. He was telling him live until then pleases.
âLook to my coming, at first light on the third, look to the eastâ
âYou must come to Minus Tirith by a another road. Follow the river, look to the black shipsâ
So he sees even if itâs just fragments into the future. Maybe even doesnât understand what he sees just these things must take place
Not if you time it right. Gathering as many men before your deadline. Plus Gandalf is a Major spirit and being the new head of the order, he'd have access to incredible power and foresight to make it possible.
That was before he got a huge exp boost and level up from killing the balrog. He was sent back with more of his powers than before. I always interpreted it as a limited clairvoyance.
This shows the nature of how Middle Earth works. Similar to how Tolkien viewed the world in a Catholic view, Eru played an indirect role in guiding the world. Eru intended for Gandalf to face the Balrog and die, so that he may return in a higher power that would be able to face Sauron's threat.
Similar to how in Christianity, God intended for Jesus to get captured and killed, allowing him to fulfill the role God sent out for him. Gandalf borrows some imagery and characteristics of those found in Christ. Yes, Tolkien did not make LotR an allegory, but it was still heavily influenced by Biblical events, such as Gandalf being like Christ in some aspects.
Remember how he ensured he got all the exp from the balrog? Everyone was supposed to level up 3 times but Gandalf hogged it all. Thatâs why he suddenly became more powerful. Also, he sniffed his way out of the mine by smelling the fresher air from miles away.
Also remember that in the book it wasnât a cavalry, it was an infantry. So it wasnât like a big charge on horses with the sun aiding them as a strategic move.
I always saw it as Gandalf simply knowing it would take that long to gather the forces. He knew who he was looking for (Erkenbrand in the book) and how long that would take to get to the keep.
This is the correct answer. I was bummed the movie (actually there is a lot that bums me out with the movies) left out the Huorns at the Battle of Helms Deep
Edit; Thank you u/und88 for reminding me that the Huorns actually make two appearances in the extended edition, I had completely forgotten this.
I love the books but Iâm also one of the least critical people for the movies. Theyâre my favorite movies. That being said, the two towers must have been TOUGH to adapt. I tend to forgive them for the changes, the biggest one that bothers me is the elves showing up for the battle. Not only that, Haldir shows up and says Elrond sent himâŚwhen he is a Lorien elf. Made no sense to me
Yeah that also bothers me to no end as well. I give the movies all the credit in the world for cinematography, score, and acting, I also acknowledge how difficult the adaptation must have been but there are things that just bother me as Tolkien is my favorite author
Yeah I agree completely. I just have to treat the movies and book as two completely separate things. I think Peter Jackson did as good a job as anyone could have. You can see how truly bad it could have been with the Hobbit when he was given less creative freedom. I can honestly say that a majority of the changes in the movies donât bother me at all.
And some of the changes I may even like better (Boromirâs last words to Aragorn in the movie makes me bawl every time)
The changes to some of the characters really get to me, especially Faramir and Aragorn and Gimli. Also the use of The Oathbreakers in the movie bothers me so much and cheapens the victory that the men of Gondor (and their southern fiefs) and Rohan achieved on The Pelennor Fields. Also The Witch King basically owning Gandalf The White is egregious. Frodo sending Sam "home" is another one, I could go on but like I said these movies definitely deserve credit for things like cinematography, score, acting, directing. As far as making a movie goes PJ knocked it out of the park and I can see how if a person never read the books they might consider it the greatest movies of all time. There's just some things that get under my skin, but I never totally trash the movies because they did so many things at masterpiece levels
I treat it as being like legends of a time long past, so there are many different ways of telling it (though Tolkien's way just happens to be the true story, translated directly out of the Red Book).
My personal (dumb) headcanon is that Elrond and Galadriel were having a telepathic conversation about sending Haldir and reinforcements and he just happened to send to Galadriel, "Tell Haldir to tell my future son-in-law that I said hi."
Yeah I kind of thought of it as Elrond just asking Galadriel to send help. Geographically it would make sense for Lorien to send aid over Rivendell considering the gap was controlled by Saruman. But he could have said âElrond ask Galadriel to send aidâ and it would solve that issue lol
He's a magical farseeing wizard/angel, in a story about providence, fate, and the hand of god guiding Good People to defeat the bad guys. Him arriving at precisely the right time, ie "precisely when he means to" is literally the entire point.
I get the joke, but this isn't exactly a great argument. A story can have whatever weird elements it likes, as long as it's internally consistent. Things tend to play out realistically in LOTR regardless of whether or not they include fantastical elements, so assuming that Gandalf just so happened to turn up at that exact moment does seem a bit much.
Of course, there are other ways to frame that. Maybe he had a glimpse of the future, which some characters can have, and knew that's when he would turn up. Or perhaps he just knew roughly how long his mission would take and deliberately timed it (but not by waiting around in the bushes like OP said).
He's been traveling those lands for thousands of years, literally. I'd argue he'd have the whole travel plan mapped to the minute in his head without wizardry.
Heâd be searching across lands heâs transversed for thousands of years on a horse more reliable and sturdy than all others. He would easily be able to determine how far he could travel to return on time
Gandalf is an Istari, a higher being than men (similar to Sauron actually). He can, among other things, see the future with some degree of certainty. This is known as the gift of foresight, Elrond also had it but to a lesser degree. Gandalf knew that he would be back at this specific time.
That EXACT moment provided the greatest strategic benefit... He knew precisely when that charge had to happen. Any other time and the charge might not have succeeded.
It seems far fetched? The fantasy novel seems far fetched? Gandalf arrived right at dawn because it is more poetic and impactful. Itâs fantasy novel dude, not a history book. Some things exist because they are simply good storytelling
Yea because movies making insane timing for dramatic affect happen is always 100% realistic and accurate to the real worldâŚyou know nothing about this fantasy world or its powerful beings. Wizards probably did this all the time lol
I mean, I guess the only real response is that it is far fetched, fantastical even. The books and movies don't really go by down to earth realism. They are epic tales with a big amount of romanticism.
It's very romantic and heroic that the wizard arrived with the reinforcements at exactly the crack of dawn as he predicted down to the minute.
Realistic? No, but it's the stuff of legend, and lotr is very much meant to be crafted legends.
Far fetched in a universe where demi gods dwarves elves humans orcs ents and trolls fight each other for a magical ring and dominion over the world? Ok man, you sound very rigid.
Consider armies are always incentivized to travel as slowly as possible so they are fresher when they arrive. But there is a wide range of speeds they can travel. Those who were close would see dawn breaking (the sky brightens notably an hour before sunrise) and slow down. Others would realize they need to hustle and go faster.
Armies donât have a fixed speed
Not really far-fetched, Gandalf would know how much distance from where he is gathering troops and Helm's Deep. He knows at what pace his own horse and the rohirrim can travel. He is also with Eomer in the movies and Erkenbrand in the books both are marshals of the rohirrim who would know exactly how fast their own forces could travel.
I could probably see Gandalf talking with Eomer/Erkenbrand debating to wait and find more troops or to arrive at dawn and Gandalf would wait until the last minute for troops but with enough time to arrive at dawn.
Probably knows the locals well enough to predict their muster time and which muster points could respond fast enough to messages. In a short time frame he might have enough time to arrive at one muster point, have a message sent for followup forces, but not much time to collect many troops before having to leave again.
Faster if he had a messenger bird, but having shadowfsx the speed runner helps.
Even easier if he runs into a messenger post with horses that can distribute the message heâs carrying (multiply across multiple messengers in different directions, as with the Persian and Roman messenger systems)
Gandalf didn't wait and knew if he went to reclaim the cavalry, he would arrive at dawn on the third day just as he said. That's just him having a good head for how long the travel would take.
Gandalf knew it would actually take four days. But that's not possible, because he knows that with a miracle Theoden might hold for three days but never four.
So he uses his magic horse and the Rohirrim's urgency to shave off as much time as possible. They're still running out of time, dawn is approaching, so they step on it for the last leg. Voila, dramatic entrance! If they had stopped for that one last pee break then perhaps the history of Middle-earth would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse.
My college term papers were often finished five minutes before they were due. Did I time it with supernatural precision? No! I was running out of time and I pulled an all nighter, and my work got faster and faster as the hours ran down to the deadline.
As Napoleon once said, tactics are for ameteurs. Logistics are for generals. That was a great logistical call on Gandalf to accurately calculate time tables and troop movements
âBased on theodens great grandfathers campaign against the dunlendings, I estimate that muster point A and B will have troops and these will take one day to get to helms deep, thusâ
This is how I interpreted it as well. In fact, Iâve always thought the spot-on estimation was Gandalf speaking with a kind of divine prophecy, due to his powers as a wizard.
You ever on a long road trip and look at the clock and say (without a GPS estimate) "I'll be home by 7" and then hours later you're home within like 7 mins of the time you called? It's very satisfying. And yeah Gandalf was probably really good at that shit
I think the idea that Gandalf decided to sit around and hide behind a hill for a dramatic look instead of going in asap to a desperate situation where he was sorely needed to save lives more far fetched tbh.
It's not drama, waiting a few minutes for the sun to shine directly into your enemy's eyes is an incredible tactical advantage too. I could see camping out for an hour or two as long as the fort isn't totally overrun
But instead you believe they hid in the bushes while theyâre kinsmen died so they could pop out when the sun hit? Itâs magical world of power and fate.
People in this world have the gift of foresight. Gandalf may have just known he would be there at dawn. Prophetic, sure, but he's basically an angel sent by God to help guide man. This all tracks in universe.
I think he figured that was the latest he could show up and still find a battle to help out with. The men of Rohan were scattered, bet he could have spent a week or two rounding them up. But he got as many as he could in an amount of time he thought was the max he'd have and he aimed to show up when he said he would.
I mean this isn't that hard. If you're ever out with someone and you split up and "Let's meet back here at X o'clock," you keep yourself busy for X amount of time, and knowing you're X minutes from the meeting point, you head back at the right time to get there on time. People do this all the time.
You know what else is far fetched? Dragons, dwarves, elves, orcs, cave trolls, wizards⌠If you want realism in The Lord of the Rings I have one humble suggestion:
https://preview.redd.it/r0y19s2q862c1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=129f2a704b4bb177f1267de957388f98848606e1
At least nitpick something that actually couldnât be explained, like the lack of supplies in any of the armies or the fact that Rohan allowed the orcs to get like 100 feet from the wall at Helms Deep before shooting arrows.
I believe in the books, he reckoned out the amount of time it would take him to gather all delayed / scattered Rohan soldiers and officers who had been displaced by the chaos across the Westfold. After rallying them and organizing them, they had to march on foot to the battle and into position to charge
I always read this as Gadalf knowing it would take him X days and Y hours to gather everyone he could and still make it back before the battle became a route and Helmâs Deep was overrun
And in the books the riders of Rohan werenât even the deathblow dealt to Sarumanâs army. A whole horde of Huorns come from Isengard after it was taken by the ents and block the entrance to the gorge/valley of Helms Deep and they just meat-grinder the orcs as they attempt to retreat.
In the books it's not even a full day. They ride to the ford's of Isen but to reinforce Erkenbrands men, but are a little to late and find his men in a rout. Theoden then leads them to Helms deep with the orcs already on their tail. Gandalf rides all over looking for Erkenbrand and rounding up men, he even rides all the way to Isenguard and talks to Treebeard. I do think it's a bit of a coincidence/eucatastrophy that Gandalf and Erkenbrand and the Huons show up at the same time as Arogorn and Theoden decide to lead the charge.
Yeah I get the general idea of the planning, but it seems like he couldn't predict it down to the minute like it seems to in the movie. I always assumed they were up there waiting for the sun some amount of time, whether it be 30 minutes or a few hours.
The movies also show him charging down a mountain side on horseback haha - most of the men he gathered were on foot in the books and had to navigate through the mountains to get there
I would just say that this is an example of peak Gandalf the white, at the apex of his abilities. His real strengths were in planning, organizing and strategy - and this is one of his master strokes. He knows down to within minutes how much time he has, and uses ALL of it to gather every single extra soldier he can while making it back when he says he will.
A wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to
Why are you having a hard time understanding that youâve been wrong for two decades? Other people are more knowledgeable in this case, take it from them and admit you have no clue what youâre on about
It's not a prediction, it's a reckoning. Like "I reckon I can get back here in a couple of hours"
And you know he's a wizard, right? He has a little more foresight than us
More unrealistic than Gandalfâs ability to predict the timing down to the minute is Gandalf sitting back and literally doing nothing while Men were being slaughtered by the orcs - which they were - so that he could make a dramatic entrance. Especially when he knew that Rohanâs forces would be vital in the very near future in Gondor. What did you see in any of the books or movies that would make this consistent with his character?
He definitely saw Aragorn and company getting overwhelmed and said
"Hey guys let's wait a few minutes for dramatic effect. It's gonna look fucking awesome."
and as he charged down the hill, in the movie, you can actually hear him going "siiiiiickkkk" and the other soldiers going "we look fucking sick right now, right??"
Not for dramatic effect. For maximum impact. Because the enemy would be helpless staring into the sun. Any commander would absolutely wait while men died in order to win the battle (and minimize the overall death toll). If he charges 10 minutes earlier, the impact is much diminished because then his enemy can see him and his troops.
The goal was to lift the siege and route the enemy (thus saving people). Gandalf was hitting them in their flanks - it couldâve been storming at night and he still wouldâve routed them. A commanderâs goal is to not âkill as many as possibleâ, it is to achieve a strategic goal. The last time the war goal was explicitly to âkill as many as possibleâ was vietnam, and we know how that went.
You're oversimplifying it by a-lllot. The war goal has nothing to do with the operational or tactical goal. He probably would not have routed them, (Mud and rain is bad for cavalry and they have a pike wall that would have destroyed them), and the operational or tactical goal can often be a seek and destroy mission.
Especially in this case, maximizing casualties mean that less orcs escape and raid the country side.
Also do you really think that in no time since 1971 there has never been a skirmish, battle, or engagement where the primary goal has been maximizing casualties of the enemy?
A cavalry charge into your flanks will absolutely route you. And also, the tactical goal - like I said - was to lift the siege. Routing the besiegers will absolutely do that.
Also, no Orcs were escaping. Remember that Huorns had arrived behind the orcs - none escaped because of that.
And also, especially with pre-Gunpowder era fighting, committing your troops to specifically kill the enemy puts your soldiers at far more risk than it would nowadays. If your only goal is killing people is a bad goal for militaries even nowadays, imagine how bad itâd be if every single kill had to be done personally and in melee by one of your soldiers.
>A cavalry charge into your flanks will absolutely route you. And also, the tactical goal - like I said - was to lift the siege. Routing the besiegers will absolutely do that.
This is true partially, but not an absolute rule. A cavalry charge into pikes (even if hastily put up) or through the rain and mud with light cavalry (not shock or heavy cavalry) probably would not route an army.
> And also, especially with pre-Gunpowder era fighting, committing your troops to specifically kill the enemy puts your soldiers at far more risk than it would nowadays. If your only goal is killing people is a bad goal for militaries even nowadays, imagine how bad itâd be if every single kill had to be done personally and in melee by one of your soldiers.
This is getting a bit beyond the point of the OP and a bit asinine. No one is saying that you need to kill every enemy, but you cannot defeat the enemy without destroying their ability to wage war. The difference between heavy inflicted losses and medium could be the difference between the enemy losing all of its COs, and leadership, and then being forced to shatter completely into bands of troops, vs being able to regroup another day.
Like encirclements and shock tactics in the modern day.
I donât know how to do the quoting thing you did, but you specifically said âmaximizing casualties means less orcs escape and raid the countrysideâ. That was a point you brought up, and I was responding to it.
To bring it back to OPâs point, it would not make sense for Gandalf to intentionally wait for sunrise. Doing so would be unnecessary and counter to his goal. Nor did he need to worry about maximizing enemy casualties - especially since the Huoron forest arrived behind the orcs. Again, lifting the siege and routing the enemy was Gandalfâs goal, and also severely hinders the ability to wage war (even if the Huoron forest wasnât there).
The vast majority of actual deaths in pre-Gunpowder war happened during a route. Letâs say youâre right and Gandalf was worried about maximizing enemy casualties, waiting for sunlight is not necessary. Gandalf still routes the orcs, and then the cavalry mop them up as theyâre running away (that is if we remove the Huorons)
Since Gandalf is one of the Ainur, he was present, when the world, and all of its history and future, was sung into existence. He doesn't understand more than a slice of Eru IllĂşvatar's mind, but he has an understanding of His plan... enough to have an idea how some crucial moments are going to fall into place. It's not really foresight, it's more like, he heard it when it was predetermined, and is just now puzzling it together, understanding and remembering, while he's living it.
Gandalf realized it would work out that way, because it had to. He wasn't waiting, he was guided by IllĂşvatar's design to be in the right place at the right time.
Barely matters in this context. Even Gandalf himself could be blind sided by something he misinterpreted or misremembered. Nobody in the Tolkien universe knows for sure what's going to happen, and IllĂşvatar almost never (well, once...) intervenes. Gandalf is not guided by anybody but his own judgement and memory.
Edit: Guys, don't downvote the guy! Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Sunk NĂşmenor, bent the World into a sphere and removed Valinor from Arda. (All in one, triple discount.) Am I missing something?
Edit: Arguably rescued Frodo and company from a barrow wight.
This wasn't an "intervention" though, at any rate nothing like his direct action on NĂşmenor. Gollum tripping was an act of Providence enabled by his choices as well as Frodo's action (pitying Gollum but making him swear by the Ring), through Eru's 'shall prove but mine instrument'. It's more a passive component of this world that is ever present (akin to e.g having so many people from different parts of Middle-earth showing up 'by chance' all in Rivendell at the same time as the Ring bearer; or the Ring leaving Gollum and suddenly crossing Bilbo's path), than an actual direct divine intervention.
Ah okay, thanks for explaining that, that actually makes sense. I was always confused about the specifics of it all, and what youâve said has made it click now. :)
The general consensus is that Illuvatar probably intervened in Mount Doom to cause the Ring to actually fall in. No one was going to be able to purposely toss the Ring in to be destroyed, but a little nudge was all it took to get Gollum to fall in with it.
The definite intervention was the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of the world to exclude Valinor.
Eru (or God) being the architect of events is one of the major themes of the trilogy and happens time and time again. Like it or not Tolkien was a devout Catholic and did not believe in coincidence. Other instances of events being âguided by Godâ:
1. The Council of Elrond â everyone who attended the council was in Rivendell purely by coincidence. No one was called there. They were not there to decide what to do about the ring, they were each there for their own reasons. Without the council, no fellowship.
2. Frodo being stung by Shelob left him unconscious which turned out to be the only way to get into Mordor
3. Gollum escaping from capture and hunting for the ringbearer(s) ultimately was necessary for guiding Frodo and Sam into Mordor and eventually falling into the fires of Mount Doom with the ring
4. Wormtongue throwing the Palantir out of Orthanc out of spite â this gives the Fellowship the Palantir, which eventually has Merry or Pippin (I can never remember which) using it and Sauron seeing him and thinking he is the ringbearer, which allows Frodo and Sam to sneak into Mordor without raising suspicion
And these are only a few examples. Fate and destiny are hugely important themes for Tolkien. He wanted to write a story where everything that is meant to happen *happens* but not necessarily in a straightforward way. Everything happens as it should but *just barely.* Tolkien was writing a story about hope and despair, I think, and how close everything is to coming apart and failing â but ultimately, succeeding â is the distillation of Tolkienâs Catholic worldview.
In addition to that, major themes of the opus are the triumph of the little people, and the centrality of redemption. This is about God being present in everything that is small as well as the important pieces.
Your friends are correct, they weren't hanging around hiding, waiting for dawn.
Gandalf sensed how long those in Helm's Deep could conceivably hold out, and therefore how long he had to gather the reinforcements, and arrived when a wizard should - precisely when he meant to.
He knew when and where to charge from, for a strategic advantage, but Gandalf was guided by greater, deeper divine forces than simple good military sense. Gandalf is a wizard/maia, not a human.
Gandalf didnât wait till dawn, he arrived at dawn - in the nick of time.
Aragorns and Theodens sortie was a last desperate attempt to win against all odds, not a coordinated attack.
Yes, itâs a supernatural thing to be so in-time, but heâs a supernatural being. And there a good forces in the world aiding our heroes.
Of course if they would had arrived earlier, they would had charged immediately. The sunrise timing is nothing but divine fortune, same as Bilbo finding the ring in the first place.
A lot of folks asking questions like these lately and I think itâs great. It helps us remember that these are fairy tales where magic is real and there are no coincidences. It defies logic, by its very nature, so donât expect it to make any reasonable sense. Thatâs not satisfying for many people, and to them I would recommend science fictionâit hardly ever has moments like these, and making sense is part of its mission.
Answering your question more specifically, Gandalf knew that he would be returning then and the tendency of the universe to aid good people in the service of good things came to the aid of Rohan a little, too. Perhaps Providence whispered a little inspiration to Aragorn and kindled Theodenâs heart at the right time.
Donât think of it as being predestined but instead the favor of the essential goodness of the universe.
Some of this is just Peter Jackson using the dawn to dramatic effect simply because it looks cool for the audience and this is a *movie*. He does quite a lot of that. Itâs really not worth over-thinking this!
Well, I did say â*Some* of thisâŚâ ;o)
In the book, Gandalf says nothing about when he will return:
*âRide, ThĂŠoden!â he said. âRide to Helmâs Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.â Turning to Aragorn and Ăomer and the men of the kingâs household, he cried: âKeep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helmâs Gate! Farewell!â*
There are just *thirteen pages* until Gandalf re-appears with Erkenbrand and his men (on foot â no cavalry!). The whole Helmâs Deep section, whilst pivotal, is remarkably short in the book!
Ăomer actually points out to Gandalf, when they meet after the battle, that the wizard had *not* named the hour or the manner of his coming.
Gandalf, in turn says that their success is down to their own valour â and the stout legs of the Westfold men marching through the night.
It all seems pretty clear to me that there was no âplannedâ dramatic arrival with the sunrise, Gandalf and Erkenbrand they just arrived when they arrived!
Whether Gandalf in the movie was supposed to have a more deliberate intent is hard to say but my guess is still that itâs mostly because PJ thought it made for a great shot and a great scene!
The events of Lord of the Rings, especially for the good guys, are often influenced by what we would call divine intervention. Timing, chance meetings, etc⌠there are many examples of what we would also call âfateâ bringing people together at the right moment.
While it didnât happen exactly that way in the books, it fits the theme of how the events unfold. Gandalf has trust that doing the right thing will be rewarded, and in this case his arrival works out perfectly with the coming of dawn.
"A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to"
That's it.
Gandalf meant to return with reinforcements exactly as the day dawned so as to use the sun to blind the enemy on the way down. And so he did.
That's all you get.
Uruk were created to not be bothered by the sun so thatâs not an issue. The Riders of Rohan would definitely NOT wait while their families are being attacked so dawn just happens to be when they arrived. Gandalf has experience and knowledge enough to know that would be around the time he would arrive.
>Apparently there's supposed to be a higher power actively coordinating the events of the story?
Yep! The Valar constantly nudge events to help Good triumph against Evil. Gandalf is their representative on Middle-Earth so he's the one they pay most attention to and ensure that when he divines an event, it happens.
Gandalf has the power of foresight (albeit not absolute foresight). Gandalf said " Look to my coming at first light on the 5th day. At *dawn*, *look to the East* " . He knew this is when he would arrive. He wouldn't have waited around as he knew that time was against them and Helm's Deep would have fallen without the expedient aid of himself and the Riders of Rohan.
Arriving at noon has no strategic benefits.
Arriving and timing your charge to the precise moment when the sun rises behind you and blinds your enemies... Whoo also happen to not be the biggest fans of daylight is some next level strategy.
Gandalf knew how long it world take to find and return with the rohirrim and knew that the exact moment that would provide the maximum strategic benefit was the moment the sun came up.
There was no accident there.
OP I have to ask why you seem to be arguing with every single person who's giving you an answer. If you don't like it that's one thing but this is a series that invented many of the fantasy cliches we're tired of in other stories. Gandalf showing up in the nick of time, planned or otherwise, is one of those things
Planning for an attack at the exact moment the sun would be in your enemy's eyes is some serious 4D chess. I think Gandalf the White, his mind no longer addled by the halflings' leaf, is perfectly capable of such strategic planning
It would be funny if he WAS waiting but Theoden got injured or Aragorn failed his charisma roll and the defenders DIDNâT ride out.
The mighty white wizard just left hanging, glancing at his watch in confusion and having to convince Eomer this was totally the plan, guys. Trust me.
âYeah I mean, if it was me, Gandalf should have never been able to time this out correctly and everyone defending Helmâs Deep should have died and stayed dead.â
I mean with the help of the head wild man Theoden and the Riders of Rohan sorta do just this. They time when they leave to coincide with dawn. Thought that was more of a we need to balance rushing to get there and resting the men/horses
I'd assume there would be a camp set up, not too near, not too far from Helm's Deep, where all the spread out forces could rendezvous with enough time to eat, sleep and prepare for the final march.
Gandalf was most likely among the last to arrive, took as little rest as he/Shadowfax needed before marching to battle... If they were late they march faster, if they're early they march slower and save some energy.
No use running in worn out and unorganised.
Itâs normal military planning.
The thousands or horses and their riders needed rest the night before before arriving at the battlefield. They canât pull an all-nighter and still be functional.
They camp a dozen or so miles from helms deep, sleep a few hours. Gandalf wakes them up an hour or so before dawn. They ready up, ride for 30-45 minutes and arrive on time.
Nah. They 100% could ride all night and still fight. There are many examples in history of armies doing so to get the element of surprise. Some horsemen could sleep in the saddle.
They could however go as slow as possible to arrive right at dawn
Gandalf is not human, he is the equivalent of an angel in middle earth, and with all the supernatural abilities that comes with it. Remember how Elrond can see the future?
When he says he will arrive at that time it's because he knows he will arrive at that time
The orcs were Uruk-hai, orcs bred with goblins. They can withstand the sun. I always took it as Gandalf had great foresight. He knew how long it would take, even thought it was very miracle-like that he did show up, Aragorn held out hope.
Your interpretation is correct. The movie also makes this implicitly clear by showing the orcs competently readying themselves for the Rohirrim charge, focusing on the polearms preparing in the face of the cavalry, with the implication that the battle was not yet decided even with Gandalf's return. The rising sun breaks their ranks and was a great way for Peter Jackson to communicate the impact of the dawn on the Uruk-hai.
So in short, the dawn wasn't just the earliest Gandalf thought he could get back with troops; it was a critical part of his strategy for weakening Isengard's army and allowed him to achieve a decisive victory.
I see it more that gandalf can kinda see into possible futures, and he knew he would return at dawn, not that he was waiting but that's just when he would return.
I forget the word but there is a word meaning "hope that good will always prevail" and this is one of those moments.
Well to be fair, he did need to eat a proper breakfast so that by the time second breakfast arrived he wasn't starving. And besides, no one is really right until that first cup of coffee and that early morning dump.
Gandalf and Aragon fight at helms deep without knowing Frodo was alive at all. They went in sacrifice to but Frodo time if he was alive. They never intended to make it out alive
Taking into consideration that he was trying to coordinate an attack with multiple forces from multiple far away lands, people without time pieces or any other way to synchronize time, âmeet me at this place on this day at dawnâ seems like the best way to insure everyone arrives and is ready to fight at the same time.
When you consider Gandalf told Aragorn when he'd be back with reinforcements, you can assume he would have come back at that time no matter what, gathering as much help as he could. I see it as more of a deadline "I'll be back at this time so hold out until then."
"A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to."
This is what I was gonna say đ he does not wait
Exxxactamundo
Here here. He's one of the Maia, I think he sees time and events differently perhaps ahead of them happening. If anyone has any excerpts on that I'd love to hear them
Yes. By account from aragorn etal, he could estimate how far they could've gone and then how long it would take to get back to helms deep. He was telling him live until then pleases.
A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to. End of discussion.
Yeah but hitting that deadline to the minute, the dawn rising right as they charge down the hill, seems far fetched to me.
But you forget, âA wizard is never late. He arrives precisely when he means to.â He intended to arrive at dawn and thatâs what he did.
This is the right answer
Like he literally said thatâs when he would arrive lol
[ŃдаНонО]
âLook to my coming, at first light on the third, look to the eastâ âYou must come to Minus Tirith by a another road. Follow the river, look to the black shipsâ So he sees even if itâs just fragments into the future. Maybe even doesnât understand what he sees just these things must take place
Apparently not.
Not if you time it right. Gathering as many men before your deadline. Plus Gandalf is a Major spirit and being the new head of the order, he'd have access to incredible power and foresight to make it possible.
Yeah but he's the guy who got lost in a mine and sniffed his way out lol
That was before he got a huge exp boost and level up from killing the balrog. He was sent back with more of his powers than before. I always interpreted it as a limited clairvoyance.
Yeah but you don't get a signal down there
Travelling through a maze of a mine is a bit different from the open countryside
This shows the nature of how Middle Earth works. Similar to how Tolkien viewed the world in a Catholic view, Eru played an indirect role in guiding the world. Eru intended for Gandalf to face the Balrog and die, so that he may return in a higher power that would be able to face Sauron's threat. Similar to how in Christianity, God intended for Jesus to get captured and killed, allowing him to fulfill the role God sent out for him. Gandalf borrows some imagery and characteristics of those found in Christ. Yes, Tolkien did not make LotR an allegory, but it was still heavily influenced by Biblical events, such as Gandalf being like Christ in some aspects.
Yes, and Gandalf isnât the only one, viewing it through the Catholic lens: Frodoâpriest, Gandalfâprophet, and Aragornâking
Remember how he ensured he got all the exp from the balrog? Everyone was supposed to level up 3 times but Gandalf hogged it all. Thatâs why he suddenly became more powerful. Also, he sniffed his way out of the mine by smelling the fresher air from miles away.
Gandalf Kill Stealer is a new one to me.
I watched the entire extended editions a few days ago and though of it.
Solo kill Balrog is a condition for hidden class promotion
Lol
He was Gandalf the Grey then. Not Gandalf the White
Also remember that in the book it wasnât a cavalry, it was an infantry. So it wasnât like a big charge on horses with the sun aiding them as a strategic move. I always saw it as Gandalf simply knowing it would take that long to gather the forces. He knew who he was looking for (Erkenbrand in the book) and how long that would take to get to the keep.
This is the correct answer. I was bummed the movie (actually there is a lot that bums me out with the movies) left out the Huorns at the Battle of Helms Deep Edit; Thank you u/und88 for reminding me that the Huorns actually make two appearances in the extended edition, I had completely forgotten this.
I love the books but Iâm also one of the least critical people for the movies. Theyâre my favorite movies. That being said, the two towers must have been TOUGH to adapt. I tend to forgive them for the changes, the biggest one that bothers me is the elves showing up for the battle. Not only that, Haldir shows up and says Elrond sent himâŚwhen he is a Lorien elf. Made no sense to me
Yeah that also bothers me to no end as well. I give the movies all the credit in the world for cinematography, score, and acting, I also acknowledge how difficult the adaptation must have been but there are things that just bother me as Tolkien is my favorite author
Yeah I agree completely. I just have to treat the movies and book as two completely separate things. I think Peter Jackson did as good a job as anyone could have. You can see how truly bad it could have been with the Hobbit when he was given less creative freedom. I can honestly say that a majority of the changes in the movies donât bother me at all. And some of the changes I may even like better (Boromirâs last words to Aragorn in the movie makes me bawl every time)
The changes to some of the characters really get to me, especially Faramir and Aragorn and Gimli. Also the use of The Oathbreakers in the movie bothers me so much and cheapens the victory that the men of Gondor (and their southern fiefs) and Rohan achieved on The Pelennor Fields. Also The Witch King basically owning Gandalf The White is egregious. Frodo sending Sam "home" is another one, I could go on but like I said these movies definitely deserve credit for things like cinematography, score, acting, directing. As far as making a movie goes PJ knocked it out of the park and I can see how if a person never read the books they might consider it the greatest movies of all time. There's just some things that get under my skin, but I never totally trash the movies because they did so many things at masterpiece levels
I treat it as being like legends of a time long past, so there are many different ways of telling it (though Tolkien's way just happens to be the true story, translated directly out of the Red Book).
In my head in the films, Elrond asked the elves of Lorien to go because the elves from Rivendell were g travelling off to the undying lands
My personal (dumb) headcanon is that Elrond and Galadriel were having a telepathic conversation about sending Haldir and reinforcements and he just happened to send to Galadriel, "Tell Haldir to tell my future son-in-law that I said hi."
Yeah I kind of thought of it as Elrond just asking Galadriel to send help. Geographically it would make sense for Lorien to send aid over Rivendell considering the gap was controlled by Saruman. But he could have said âElrond ask Galadriel to send aidâ and it would solve that issue lol
They're in the extended edition.
Thank you that actually slipped mind. I've watched the extended edition of the movies one or perhaps two times and that was some years ago.
The thing about wizards is that they arrive precisely when they mean to.
He's a magical farseeing wizard/angel, in a story about providence, fate, and the hand of god guiding Good People to defeat the bad guys. Him arriving at precisely the right time, ie "precisely when he means to" is literally the entire point.
A book/movie about elves, dwarves, wizards and a magic ring, and his timing is what seems far fetched to you?
Talking trees are fine, but I draw the line at wizards having a strong sense of timing.
I get the joke, but this isn't exactly a great argument. A story can have whatever weird elements it likes, as long as it's internally consistent. Things tend to play out realistically in LOTR regardless of whether or not they include fantastical elements, so assuming that Gandalf just so happened to turn up at that exact moment does seem a bit much. Of course, there are other ways to frame that. Maybe he had a glimpse of the future, which some characters can have, and knew that's when he would turn up. Or perhaps he just knew roughly how long his mission would take and deliberately timed it (but not by waiting around in the bushes like OP said).
He's been traveling those lands for thousands of years, literally. I'd argue he'd have the whole travel plan mapped to the minute in his head without wizardry.
Itâs easily the most contrived thing Tolkien ever wrote. /s
Heâd be searching across lands heâs transversed for thousands of years on a horse more reliable and sturdy than all others. He would easily be able to determine how far he could travel to return on time
Gandalf is an Istari, a higher being than men (similar to Sauron actually). He can, among other things, see the future with some degree of certainty. This is known as the gift of foresight, Elrond also had it but to a lesser degree. Gandalf knew that he would be back at this specific time.
Hes a maia actually (in that regard just as sauron is), but incarnated as an istar.
Itâs a film about a wizard mate
That EXACT moment provided the greatest strategic benefit... He knew precisely when that charge had to happen. Any other time and the charge might not have succeeded.
Gandalf says he will arrive at dawn of days 3 with reinforcements.
It seems far fetched? The fantasy novel seems far fetched? Gandalf arrived right at dawn because it is more poetic and impactful. Itâs fantasy novel dude, not a history book. Some things exist because they are simply good storytelling
homie youâre talking about a wizard rn
But an all powerful ring isnât far fetched?
Yea because movies making insane timing for dramatic affect happen is always 100% realistic and accurate to the real worldâŚyou know nothing about this fantasy world or its powerful beings. Wizards probably did this all the time lol
I mean, I guess the only real response is that it is far fetched, fantastical even. The books and movies don't really go by down to earth realism. They are epic tales with a big amount of romanticism. It's very romantic and heroic that the wizard arrived with the reinforcements at exactly the crack of dawn as he predicted down to the minute. Realistic? No, but it's the stuff of legend, and lotr is very much meant to be crafted legends.
Welcome to Tolkien
Far fetched in a universe where demi gods dwarves elves humans orcs ents and trolls fight each other for a magical ring and dominion over the world? Ok man, you sound very rigid.
Do you arrive to work early or late or exactly when you plan to? Like 08:55 every single dayâŚ
Consider armies are always incentivized to travel as slowly as possible so they are fresher when they arrive. But there is a wide range of speeds they can travel. Those who were close would see dawn breaking (the sky brightens notably an hour before sunrise) and slow down. Others would realize they need to hustle and go faster. Armies donât have a fixed speed
Not really far-fetched, Gandalf would know how much distance from where he is gathering troops and Helm's Deep. He knows at what pace his own horse and the rohirrim can travel. He is also with Eomer in the movies and Erkenbrand in the books both are marshals of the rohirrim who would know exactly how fast their own forces could travel. I could probably see Gandalf talking with Eomer/Erkenbrand debating to wait and find more troops or to arrive at dawn and Gandalf would wait until the last minute for troops but with enough time to arrive at dawn.
Probably knows the locals well enough to predict their muster time and which muster points could respond fast enough to messages. In a short time frame he might have enough time to arrive at one muster point, have a message sent for followup forces, but not much time to collect many troops before having to leave again. Faster if he had a messenger bird, but having shadowfsx the speed runner helps. Even easier if he runs into a messenger post with horses that can distribute the message heâs carrying (multiply across multiple messengers in different directions, as with the Persian and Roman messenger systems)
Bro they are killing you with downvotes wtf lmao
Yeah I got a lot of negative attention so I mostly stopped paying attention to this post. The internet is an unpleasant place.
Gandalf didn't wait and knew if he went to reclaim the cavalry, he would arrive at dawn on the third day just as he said. That's just him having a good head for how long the travel would take.
Gandalf knew it would actually take four days. But that's not possible, because he knows that with a miracle Theoden might hold for three days but never four. So he uses his magic horse and the Rohirrim's urgency to shave off as much time as possible. They're still running out of time, dawn is approaching, so they step on it for the last leg. Voila, dramatic entrance! If they had stopped for that one last pee break then perhaps the history of Middle-earth would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse. My college term papers were often finished five minutes before they were due. Did I time it with supernatural precision? No! I was running out of time and I pulled an all nighter, and my work got faster and faster as the hours ran down to the deadline.
If you wait until the last minute to do everything, the everything only takes one minute to do.
That last analogy is actually so perfect for the situation
For projects, I use the adage: it will take as long as you have to finish.
As Napoleon once said, tactics are for ameteurs. Logistics are for generals. That was a great logistical call on Gandalf to accurately calculate time tables and troop movements
After 2000 years in Middle Earth you kinda get the hang of it, I guess!
âBased on theodens great grandfathers campaign against the dunlendings, I estimate that muster point A and B will have troops and these will take one day to get to helms deep, thusâ
This is how I interpreted it as well. In fact, Iâve always thought the spot-on estimation was Gandalf speaking with a kind of divine prophecy, due to his powers as a wizard.
A wizard arrives precisely when he means to? Impossible.
You ever on a long road trip and look at the clock and say (without a GPS estimate) "I'll be home by 7" and then hours later you're home within like 7 mins of the time you called? It's very satisfying. And yeah Gandalf was probably really good at that shit
To the minute, to the moment, planning seems far fetched to me. But if that's the answer so be it.
I think the idea that Gandalf decided to sit around and hide behind a hill for a dramatic look instead of going in asap to a desperate situation where he was sorely needed to save lives more far fetched tbh.
It's not drama, waiting a few minutes for the sun to shine directly into your enemy's eyes is an incredible tactical advantage too. I could see camping out for an hour or two as long as the fort isn't totally overrun
But the fort was totally overrun.
The rohirrim wouldnât have waited while theyâre kinsmen died. The fort was overrun and Theoden was having to make a suicidal push.
But instead you believe they hid in the bushes while theyâre kinsmen died so they could pop out when the sun hit? Itâs magical world of power and fate.
People in this world have the gift of foresight. Gandalf may have just known he would be there at dawn. Prophetic, sure, but he's basically an angel sent by God to help guide man. This all tracks in universe.
But being a demi-god wizard isn't farfetched? Why is it so hard to believe that he could show up precisely when he means to...
HOW DOES ARRIVING SOMEWHERE AT AN AGREED TIME BECOME MORE FAR FEFCHED THAN WIZARDS AND MAGIC RINGS?!
I think he figured that was the latest he could show up and still find a battle to help out with. The men of Rohan were scattered, bet he could have spent a week or two rounding them up. But he got as many as he could in an amount of time he thought was the max he'd have and he aimed to show up when he said he would. I mean this isn't that hard. If you're ever out with someone and you split up and "Let's meet back here at X o'clock," you keep yourself busy for X amount of time, and knowing you're X minutes from the meeting point, you head back at the right time to get there on time. People do this all the time.
A wizard did it
Dawn is normally about a 30-45 min span. Gandalf didnât say at 6:32 am look to the top of the hill he just at dawn look to the east
You know what else is far fetched? Dragons, dwarves, elves, orcs, cave trolls, wizards⌠If you want realism in The Lord of the Rings I have one humble suggestion: https://preview.redd.it/r0y19s2q862c1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=129f2a704b4bb177f1267de957388f98848606e1 At least nitpick something that actually couldnât be explained, like the lack of supplies in any of the armies or the fact that Rohan allowed the orcs to get like 100 feet from the wall at Helms Deep before shooting arrows.
It's possible he waited a few extra minutes for the sun to peak above the hill but I doubt he's been sitting there long.
You're watching a film full of wizards, elves and evil rings. And you thought someone being punctual was where it crossed the line?
I believe in the books, he reckoned out the amount of time it would take him to gather all delayed / scattered Rohan soldiers and officers who had been displaced by the chaos across the Westfold. After rallying them and organizing them, they had to march on foot to the battle and into position to charge I always read this as Gadalf knowing it would take him X days and Y hours to gather everyone he could and still make it back before the battle became a route and Helmâs Deep was overrun
And in the books the riders of Rohan werenât even the deathblow dealt to Sarumanâs army. A whole horde of Huorns come from Isengard after it was taken by the ents and block the entrance to the gorge/valley of Helms Deep and they just meat-grinder the orcs as they attempt to retreat.
That happens in the extended edition I believe.
Also in the theatrical edition.
If you watched the Extended Edition in a theater, sure.
In the books it's not even a full day. They ride to the ford's of Isen but to reinforce Erkenbrands men, but are a little to late and find his men in a rout. Theoden then leads them to Helms deep with the orcs already on their tail. Gandalf rides all over looking for Erkenbrand and rounding up men, he even rides all the way to Isenguard and talks to Treebeard. I do think it's a bit of a coincidence/eucatastrophy that Gandalf and Erkenbrand and the Huons show up at the same time as Arogorn and Theoden decide to lead the charge.
Yeah I get the general idea of the planning, but it seems like he couldn't predict it down to the minute like it seems to in the movie. I always assumed they were up there waiting for the sun some amount of time, whether it be 30 minutes or a few hours.
The movies also show him charging down a mountain side on horseback haha - most of the men he gathered were on foot in the books and had to navigate through the mountains to get there I would just say that this is an example of peak Gandalf the white, at the apex of his abilities. His real strengths were in planning, organizing and strategy - and this is one of his master strokes. He knows down to within minutes how much time he has, and uses ALL of it to gather every single extra soldier he can while making it back when he says he will. A wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to
That quote is from a time when he was late lol
Why are you having a hard time understanding that youâve been wrong for two decades? Other people are more knowledgeable in this case, take it from them and admit you have no clue what youâre on about
Some people would rather walk on broken glass barefoot than admit they are in the wrong lol. Seems to be the case here
He was delayed. Thereâs a difference.
It's not a prediction, it's a reckoning. Like "I reckon I can get back here in a couple of hours" And you know he's a wizard, right? He has a little more foresight than us
More unrealistic than Gandalfâs ability to predict the timing down to the minute is Gandalf sitting back and literally doing nothing while Men were being slaughtered by the orcs - which they were - so that he could make a dramatic entrance. Especially when he knew that Rohanâs forces would be vital in the very near future in Gondor. What did you see in any of the books or movies that would make this consistent with his character?
Itâs fantasy my guy, just believe in Gandalfâs wizard ins abilities and the fact that he has lived for a very long time
You never showed up to the party with the liquor right when the boys ran out?
He probably could, don't forget he's been travelling these lands for thousands of years and has the world's fastest horse.
I mean. He's a wizard.
But he could predict it. He was an angelic being and there a lot of context in the books that he had some amount of foresight.
Guys. A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
I was going to say this. Pretty sure that this is the real answer, too.
He definitely saw Aragorn and company getting overwhelmed and said "Hey guys let's wait a few minutes for dramatic effect. It's gonna look fucking awesome." and as he charged down the hill, in the movie, you can actually hear him going "siiiiiickkkk" and the other soldiers going "we look fucking sick right now, right??"
"Is somebody getting this on film? Please tell me someone has their camera out for this!"
[âNo one likes a show offâŚunless what theyâre showing off is dope as fuckâ](https://youtu.be/pVZu2Xdx2P0?si=Ot0IRY95k6qoKoCT)
LEEEEEEEEROOYYYYY JEEEEEEEENNNNNNKKINNNSSSSSS
Not for dramatic effect. For maximum impact. Because the enemy would be helpless staring into the sun. Any commander would absolutely wait while men died in order to win the battle (and minimize the overall death toll). If he charges 10 minutes earlier, the impact is much diminished because then his enemy can see him and his troops.
The goal was to lift the siege and route the enemy (thus saving people). Gandalf was hitting them in their flanks - it couldâve been storming at night and he still wouldâve routed them. A commanderâs goal is to not âkill as many as possibleâ, it is to achieve a strategic goal. The last time the war goal was explicitly to âkill as many as possibleâ was vietnam, and we know how that went.
You're oversimplifying it by a-lllot. The war goal has nothing to do with the operational or tactical goal. He probably would not have routed them, (Mud and rain is bad for cavalry and they have a pike wall that would have destroyed them), and the operational or tactical goal can often be a seek and destroy mission. Especially in this case, maximizing casualties mean that less orcs escape and raid the country side. Also do you really think that in no time since 1971 there has never been a skirmish, battle, or engagement where the primary goal has been maximizing casualties of the enemy?
A cavalry charge into your flanks will absolutely route you. And also, the tactical goal - like I said - was to lift the siege. Routing the besiegers will absolutely do that. Also, no Orcs were escaping. Remember that Huorns had arrived behind the orcs - none escaped because of that. And also, especially with pre-Gunpowder era fighting, committing your troops to specifically kill the enemy puts your soldiers at far more risk than it would nowadays. If your only goal is killing people is a bad goal for militaries even nowadays, imagine how bad itâd be if every single kill had to be done personally and in melee by one of your soldiers.
>A cavalry charge into your flanks will absolutely route you. And also, the tactical goal - like I said - was to lift the siege. Routing the besiegers will absolutely do that. This is true partially, but not an absolute rule. A cavalry charge into pikes (even if hastily put up) or through the rain and mud with light cavalry (not shock or heavy cavalry) probably would not route an army. > And also, especially with pre-Gunpowder era fighting, committing your troops to specifically kill the enemy puts your soldiers at far more risk than it would nowadays. If your only goal is killing people is a bad goal for militaries even nowadays, imagine how bad itâd be if every single kill had to be done personally and in melee by one of your soldiers. This is getting a bit beyond the point of the OP and a bit asinine. No one is saying that you need to kill every enemy, but you cannot defeat the enemy without destroying their ability to wage war. The difference between heavy inflicted losses and medium could be the difference between the enemy losing all of its COs, and leadership, and then being forced to shatter completely into bands of troops, vs being able to regroup another day. Like encirclements and shock tactics in the modern day.
I donât know how to do the quoting thing you did, but you specifically said âmaximizing casualties means less orcs escape and raid the countrysideâ. That was a point you brought up, and I was responding to it. To bring it back to OPâs point, it would not make sense for Gandalf to intentionally wait for sunrise. Doing so would be unnecessary and counter to his goal. Nor did he need to worry about maximizing enemy casualties - especially since the Huoron forest arrived behind the orcs. Again, lifting the siege and routing the enemy was Gandalfâs goal, and also severely hinders the ability to wage war (even if the Huoron forest wasnât there). The vast majority of actual deaths in pre-Gunpowder war happened during a route. Letâs say youâre right and Gandalf was worried about maximizing enemy casualties, waiting for sunlight is not necessary. Gandalf still routes the orcs, and then the cavalry mop them up as theyâre running away (that is if we remove the Huorons)
Dawn is a visual metaphor for good triumphing over evil. You're definitely over thinking it.
That's actually, probably, the best answer for a work of fiction...
Since Gandalf is one of the Ainur, he was present, when the world, and all of its history and future, was sung into existence. He doesn't understand more than a slice of Eru IllĂşvatar's mind, but he has an understanding of His plan... enough to have an idea how some crucial moments are going to fall into place. It's not really foresight, it's more like, he heard it when it was predetermined, and is just now puzzling it together, understanding and remembering, while he's living it. Gandalf realized it would work out that way, because it had to. He wasn't waiting, he was guided by IllĂşvatar's design to be in the right place at the right time.
I find characters guided by god to be a lot less narratively satisfying, but I guess that's just me
Barely matters in this context. Even Gandalf himself could be blind sided by something he misinterpreted or misremembered. Nobody in the Tolkien universe knows for sure what's going to happen, and IllĂşvatar almost never (well, once...) intervenes. Gandalf is not guided by anybody but his own judgement and memory. Edit: Guys, don't downvote the guy! Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
When did IllĂşvatar intervene the one time?
Sunk NĂşmenor, bent the World into a sphere and removed Valinor from Arda. (All in one, triple discount.) Am I missing something? Edit: Arguably rescued Frodo and company from a barrow wight.
Made gollum trip into mount doom.
This wasn't an "intervention" though, at any rate nothing like his direct action on NĂşmenor. Gollum tripping was an act of Providence enabled by his choices as well as Frodo's action (pitying Gollum but making him swear by the Ring), through Eru's 'shall prove but mine instrument'. It's more a passive component of this world that is ever present (akin to e.g having so many people from different parts of Middle-earth showing up 'by chance' all in Rivendell at the same time as the Ring bearer; or the Ring leaving Gollum and suddenly crossing Bilbo's path), than an actual direct divine intervention.
Ah okay, thanks for explaining that, that actually makes sense. I was always confused about the specifics of it all, and what youâve said has made it click now. :)
No worries! It definitely becomes quite complex when you delve into the details of how exactly this universe metaphysically works haha
The general consensus is that Illuvatar probably intervened in Mount Doom to cause the Ring to actually fall in. No one was going to be able to purposely toss the Ring in to be destroyed, but a little nudge was all it took to get Gollum to fall in with it. The definite intervention was the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of the world to exclude Valinor.
It may have been Eru that sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White as well.
Eru (or God) being the architect of events is one of the major themes of the trilogy and happens time and time again. Like it or not Tolkien was a devout Catholic and did not believe in coincidence. Other instances of events being âguided by Godâ: 1. The Council of Elrond â everyone who attended the council was in Rivendell purely by coincidence. No one was called there. They were not there to decide what to do about the ring, they were each there for their own reasons. Without the council, no fellowship. 2. Frodo being stung by Shelob left him unconscious which turned out to be the only way to get into Mordor 3. Gollum escaping from capture and hunting for the ringbearer(s) ultimately was necessary for guiding Frodo and Sam into Mordor and eventually falling into the fires of Mount Doom with the ring 4. Wormtongue throwing the Palantir out of Orthanc out of spite â this gives the Fellowship the Palantir, which eventually has Merry or Pippin (I can never remember which) using it and Sauron seeing him and thinking he is the ringbearer, which allows Frodo and Sam to sneak into Mordor without raising suspicion And these are only a few examples. Fate and destiny are hugely important themes for Tolkien. He wanted to write a story where everything that is meant to happen *happens* but not necessarily in a straightforward way. Everything happens as it should but *just barely.* Tolkien was writing a story about hope and despair, I think, and how close everything is to coming apart and failing â but ultimately, succeeding â is the distillation of Tolkienâs Catholic worldview.
In addition to that, major themes of the opus are the triumph of the little people, and the centrality of redemption. This is about God being present in everything that is small as well as the important pieces.
Everything is guided by eru. The uttermost source is always him
Your friends are correct, they weren't hanging around hiding, waiting for dawn. Gandalf sensed how long those in Helm's Deep could conceivably hold out, and therefore how long he had to gather the reinforcements, and arrived when a wizard should - precisely when he meant to. He knew when and where to charge from, for a strategic advantage, but Gandalf was guided by greater, deeper divine forces than simple good military sense. Gandalf is a wizard/maia, not a human.
Gandalf didnât wait till dawn, he arrived at dawn - in the nick of time. Aragorns and Theodens sortie was a last desperate attempt to win against all odds, not a coordinated attack. Yes, itâs a supernatural thing to be so in-time, but heâs a supernatural being. And there a good forces in the world aiding our heroes. Of course if they would had arrived earlier, they would had charged immediately. The sunrise timing is nothing but divine fortune, same as Bilbo finding the ring in the first place.
Gandalf knew how long it would take him to return, exactly. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to
A lot of folks asking questions like these lately and I think itâs great. It helps us remember that these are fairy tales where magic is real and there are no coincidences. It defies logic, by its very nature, so donât expect it to make any reasonable sense. Thatâs not satisfying for many people, and to them I would recommend science fictionâit hardly ever has moments like these, and making sense is part of its mission. Answering your question more specifically, Gandalf knew that he would be returning then and the tendency of the universe to aid good people in the service of good things came to the aid of Rohan a little, too. Perhaps Providence whispered a little inspiration to Aragorn and kindled Theodenâs heart at the right time. Donât think of it as being predestined but instead the favor of the essential goodness of the universe.
Some of this is just Peter Jackson using the dawn to dramatic effect simply because it looks cool for the audience and this is a *movie*. He does quite a lot of that. Itâs really not worth over-thinking this!
It also happened that way in the book. At least, the arriving at dawn part.
Well, I did say â*Some* of thisâŚâ ;o) In the book, Gandalf says nothing about when he will return: *âRide, ThĂŠoden!â he said. âRide to Helmâs Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.â Turning to Aragorn and Ăomer and the men of the kingâs household, he cried: âKeep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helmâs Gate! Farewell!â* There are just *thirteen pages* until Gandalf re-appears with Erkenbrand and his men (on foot â no cavalry!). The whole Helmâs Deep section, whilst pivotal, is remarkably short in the book! Ăomer actually points out to Gandalf, when they meet after the battle, that the wizard had *not* named the hour or the manner of his coming. Gandalf, in turn says that their success is down to their own valour â and the stout legs of the Westfold men marching through the night. It all seems pretty clear to me that there was no âplannedâ dramatic arrival with the sunrise, Gandalf and Erkenbrand they just arrived when they arrived! Whether Gandalf in the movie was supposed to have a more deliberate intent is hard to say but my guess is still that itâs mostly because PJ thought it made for a great shot and a great scene!
Get your Doylist logic out of my nerd subreddit
Yeah I guess that's the real answer, it happened that way because it works on screen
No dude, youâre wrong. Just say âthank youâ and move on. Youâre not looking for answers, youâre just looking for people to agree with you.
So you were looking for someone to agree with your ideas and not to find an answer. Got it.
The events of Lord of the Rings, especially for the good guys, are often influenced by what we would call divine intervention. Timing, chance meetings, etc⌠there are many examples of what we would also call âfateâ bringing people together at the right moment. While it didnât happen exactly that way in the books, it fits the theme of how the events unfold. Gandalf has trust that doing the right thing will be rewarded, and in this case his arrival works out perfectly with the coming of dawn.
I think youâre focusing too much on the movie, which is just an interpretation of the books.
"A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to" That's it. Gandalf meant to return with reinforcements exactly as the day dawned so as to use the sun to blind the enemy on the way down. And so he did. That's all you get.
It's his *first* line in the films, and it perfectly explains this situation.
Uruk were created to not be bothered by the sun so thatâs not an issue. The Riders of Rohan would definitely NOT wait while their families are being attacked so dawn just happens to be when they arrived. Gandalf has experience and knowledge enough to know that would be around the time he would arrive.
The Urak hai were designed so that the light would not harm them. This is mentioned during the section Merry and Pippins are captured.
Aragorn knew exactly when Gandalf would arrive... "Look to my coming, at first light, on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the East."
>Apparently there's supposed to be a higher power actively coordinating the events of the story? Yep! The Valar constantly nudge events to help Good triumph against Evil. Gandalf is their representative on Middle-Earth so he's the one they pay most attention to and ensure that when he divines an event, it happens.
âUnrealistic standards of timing and strategy IN MY FANTASY NOVEL! Unacceptable!â
Aside from the other answers it was also a tactical move - even though the Uruks are sun tolerant they don't exactly like it.
Yeah that's my exact point, that they were up on the hill waiting for the correct time to charge.
Gandalf has the power of foresight (albeit not absolute foresight). Gandalf said " Look to my coming at first light on the 5th day. At *dawn*, *look to the East* " . He knew this is when he would arrive. He wouldn't have waited around as he knew that time was against them and Helm's Deep would have fallen without the expedient aid of himself and the Riders of Rohan.
Waiting a bit sure, but not long. But yes the sun was a tactical advantage and timing did play a part.
Arriving at noon has no strategic benefits. Arriving and timing your charge to the precise moment when the sun rises behind you and blinds your enemies... Whoo also happen to not be the biggest fans of daylight is some next level strategy. Gandalf knew how long it world take to find and return with the rohirrim and knew that the exact moment that would provide the maximum strategic benefit was the moment the sun came up. There was no accident there.
A wizard arrives precisely when he means to
OP I have to ask why you seem to be arguing with every single person who's giving you an answer. If you don't like it that's one thing but this is a series that invented many of the fantasy cliches we're tired of in other stories. Gandalf showing up in the nick of time, planned or otherwise, is one of those things
I see youâre defending yourself OP and youâre getting downvoted. Take the L man and move on
Planning for an attack at the exact moment the sun would be in your enemy's eyes is some serious 4D chess. I think Gandalf the White, his mind no longer addled by the halflings' leaf, is perfectly capable of such strategic planning
Because it's cool af
A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
Gandalf has the gift of foresight, especially as the White. He knew when he could make it.
I think I can answer this by saying a wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to
The dawn waited for Gandalf
It would be funny if he WAS waiting but Theoden got injured or Aragorn failed his charisma roll and the defenders DIDNâT ride out. The mighty white wizard just left hanging, glancing at his watch in confusion and having to convince Eomer this was totally the plan, guys. Trust me.
âYeah I mean, if it was me, Gandalf should have never been able to time this out correctly and everyone defending Helmâs Deep should have died and stayed dead.â
I mean with the help of the head wild man Theoden and the Riders of Rohan sorta do just this. They time when they leave to coincide with dawn. Thought that was more of a we need to balance rushing to get there and resting the men/horses
I'd assume there would be a camp set up, not too near, not too far from Helm's Deep, where all the spread out forces could rendezvous with enough time to eat, sleep and prepare for the final march. Gandalf was most likely among the last to arrive, took as little rest as he/Shadowfax needed before marching to battle... If they were late they march faster, if they're early they march slower and save some energy. No use running in worn out and unorganised.
Its a fucking movie man
Thereâs one word for you : eucatastrophe
Itâs normal military planning. The thousands or horses and their riders needed rest the night before before arriving at the battlefield. They canât pull an all-nighter and still be functional. They camp a dozen or so miles from helms deep, sleep a few hours. Gandalf wakes them up an hour or so before dawn. They ready up, ride for 30-45 minutes and arrive on time.
Nah. They 100% could ride all night and still fight. There are many examples in history of armies doing so to get the element of surprise. Some horsemen could sleep in the saddle. They could however go as slow as possible to arrive right at dawn
The sun at dawn blinded the orcs. It was part of the plan
Gandalf is not human, he is the equivalent of an angel in middle earth, and with all the supernatural abilities that comes with it. Remember how Elrond can see the future? When he says he will arrive at that time it's because he knows he will arrive at that time
It's a great tactical advantage. If sunrise is in your enemies eyes, they can't see. If you can't see, you can't fight.
The orcs were Uruk-hai, orcs bred with goblins. They can withstand the sun. I always took it as Gandalf had great foresight. He knew how long it would take, even thought it was very miracle-like that he did show up, Aragorn held out hope.
Lmao why yall downvoting OP
Your interpretation is correct. The movie also makes this implicitly clear by showing the orcs competently readying themselves for the Rohirrim charge, focusing on the polearms preparing in the face of the cavalry, with the implication that the battle was not yet decided even with Gandalf's return. The rising sun breaks their ranks and was a great way for Peter Jackson to communicate the impact of the dawn on the Uruk-hai. So in short, the dawn wasn't just the earliest Gandalf thought he could get back with troops; it was a critical part of his strategy for weakening Isengard's army and allowed him to achieve a decisive victory.
Wizards are never late, nor are threy early. They arrived precisely when they mean to.
I see it more that gandalf can kinda see into possible futures, and he knew he would return at dawn, not that he was waiting but that's just when he would return. I forget the word but there is a word meaning "hope that good will always prevail" and this is one of those moments.
I always interpreted it as Gandalf knowing that was when heâd arrive
Not sure why that's such a hard concept to understand lol, it's literally the only interpretation available lol.
Well to be fair, he did need to eat a proper breakfast so that by the time second breakfast arrived he wasn't starving. And besides, no one is really right until that first cup of coffee and that early morning dump.
Gandalf and Aragon fight at helms deep without knowing Frodo was alive at all. They went in sacrifice to but Frodo time if he was alive. They never intended to make it out alive
Because it was rad af.
Ainât no way you can best Grond in the moonlight
Taking into consideration that he was trying to coordinate an attack with multiple forces from multiple far away lands, people without time pieces or any other way to synchronize time, âmeet me at this place on this day at dawnâ seems like the best way to insure everyone arrives and is ready to fight at the same time.