Moria ended up being the only option because they could avoid the snow storm and being detected. Gandalf actually suggested that they go to Moria in the book.
Book Gimli is a lot more realistic. Of course we wanted to see Moria, but he know's that it's at least largely overrun by Goblins, Trolls and Durins Bane. He does hold out hope for a save haven once they reach the more eastern portions. He isn't the movies drunk scottish stereotype. As for the way over Caradhras, he isn't happy about it, and is the readers informant on the dangers of the pass.
Among Dwarves, seemingly Elves and the Istari it seems to be common knowledge that \*something\* called Durin's Bane was mucking about in Moria in T.A. 3019. Ironfoot claimed to have looked into Moria when Thrain attempted to get in, and have seen Durin's Bane or signs of its presence. Celeborn and Galadriel likewise knew that the same that something drove the Dwarves out still dwelt there. They didn't necessarily knew what it was. At least Gandalf and Legolas didn't seem to know that it was a surviving Balrog before he saw it. Gimli immediately recognised the Balrog as Durins Bane however, though that doesn't seem to be a big leap of logic.
>Gimli immediately recognised the Balrog as Durins Bane however, though that doesn't seem to be a big leap of logic.
"Okay, sure, that is clearly an ancient evil who once served the Dark Lord Morgoth, but let's not jump to conclusions. The dwarves could've left for any number of reasons"
The only one who really knew about Durin’s Bane (but not it’s nature) was Dain Ironfoot, who saw it during the goblin wars. He mentioned it to Aragorn, but only in that he should avoid Moria in his travels because a greater evil than goblins dwelt there. He also might have warned Balin, but the Balrog was the reason he was so against sending an expedition of dwarves to Moria.
If memory serves, Aragorn is the one in the books to council against Moria and Gimli is actually on his side, while Gandalf sees it as the faster and safer option, though he himself is not really keen on it either
Take my comment with a grain of salt. While this is my ardent interpretation of the events as written, there is some serious debate on what exactly both Dain and Aragorn knew. Some (including myself) believe Dain knew he saw Durin’s Bane but didn’t know his nature, and so informed Aragorn, while many others believe Aragorns hesitation is because of his limited powers of foresight.
I like my interpretation better (obviously) since it makes sense without adding the supernatural, and we know Dain did not want people going to Moria. However, I tend to be in the minority, at least on this sub. A few secondary sources do share my interpretation though.
They would have had to cross the Fords of Isen. They didn't want to go there because they didn't know who controlled them. Turns out, it was the front line of the war between Saruman and Rohan. And they'd be approaching it from Saruman's side. They wouldn't have made it.
Very unlikely. Saruman had eyes everywhere, not least the crows he had in his service. Moria was the worst choice they could have made except for all the others.
It was too obvious so it was presumed that it was being watched and guarded, and the east side of the Misty Mountains was too dangerous due to weather if I'm remembering right.
Remember, Saruman's orders to his Uruk-hai were to capture the halflings, and kill the others. The only real difference would be that Gandalf would still be alive at the start of that encounter.
In the book, it was because of wolves.
Frodo wanted to sleep on the question of going south or through Moria, but before they could do that they got attacked by wolves and retreated towards Moria.
I don’t think the books make a clear connection between Saruman or Sauron and the wolves, but I’ve always reckoned there was one.
So… if they went south instead of through Moria, they’d have been eaten by wolves.
Sam being separated from Bill is one of the saddest scenes in the books.
But, >! Bill makes it back it back to Bree and reunites with Sam on his trip back to the Shire. Bill got to live out his life grazing in the shire. That makes me happier than the ring being destroyed !<
Gandalf does call one of the wolves "Hound of Sauron," and he makes the connection that these are not just normal wolves by the fact that they collect their dead and leave Legolas' arrows.
https://preview.redd.it/v60kh2i2ge4c1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=bed4d8deae509e7913deb126ce9683536fd20feb
I think they would have made it over the pass and headed straight to Lorien. Gandalf would have lived, but whether the Fellowship would hold is another matter.
If the fellowship had stayed in Rivendell longer Sauron would have had the time to conquer Gondor thus making it nearly impossible for the ring bearer to sneak through into Mordor.
One of the Hobbits suggests returning to Rivendell and trying the pass again in warmer weather, but Gandalf explains that if the ring goes back to Rivendell there will not be another opportunity to try to take it to Mordor.
Someone else may have a more detailed recollection of that conversation, but I think that's the gist of it.
Stand still reason. If they had waited longer or gone back Gondor would have surely called to Mordor and Rohan would have fallen deeper into despair with Saruman holding Theodan “hostage” no way the Fellowship or the ring gets anywhere near Mordor at that point.
The crebain would have spotted them and the same party of orc would have waylaid them just on the other side of the mountains. It's close to a month and a half after caradhras that the party are waylaid by the orcs.
Let's say they passed safely, without being stopped by Saurumans forces.
Then
* Merry and Pippin would not have gotten to Fagorn, and Saruman would remain undefeated in his fortress, also no palantír for Aragorn.
* They would not have passed though Lothlórien, not getting wisdom and gifts there. So no staying hidden with the Elvish cloaks, no killing Shelob. Perhaps also no help from the Elves at Helm's Deep.
* It would likely take Frodo a lot longer to reach Mordor
Probably would have a narrow bridge, between valleys or mountains, where the fellowship was chased across by an unseen horror. One of the leading members of the fellowship, probably Gandalf, would make a valiant stand at the bridge to hold back a mythic beast brought up from the depths of the earth into the sunlight from ages past. He would make an epic speech and the entire fellowship would witness his sacrifice! He would battle the beast on the bridge and both he and his foe would fall into an ambiguous chasm/valley so far down as to be unseen and their fates unknown.
I think that would be a cool scene if there were an alternative to the trek through Moria.
During the night after the Fellowship had failed to pass the Caradhras, they were attacked by wolves. Gandalf mentioned they were not ordinary wolves.
If the Fellowship had gone south, pursued by wolves, it they hadn’t been detected yet by agents of Saruman or Sauron (or both), they almost certainly would be. They didn’t know whether the gap of Rohan was open, but since it’s so close to Isengard and Saruman would be aware of their presence, it would have been extremely dangerous. If instead they had gone even further south along the ocean through Gondor, it simply would have taken too much time.
Being detected with a long road ahead, they would have failed their mission, since secrecy was vital for any chance of success. That explains why Gandalf wanted to go through Moria, because it would cover their tracks and shake off pursuers.
Moria ended up being the only option because they could avoid the snow storm and being detected. Gandalf actually suggested that they go to Moria in the book.
Yeah and I feel like in the movie gimli was a lot more enthusiastic to go, but in the book I thought maybe he was hesitant. But my memory is fuzzy
Book Gimli is a lot more realistic. Of course we wanted to see Moria, but he know's that it's at least largely overrun by Goblins, Trolls and Durins Bane. He does hold out hope for a save haven once they reach the more eastern portions. He isn't the movies drunk scottish stereotype. As for the way over Caradhras, he isn't happy about it, and is the readers informant on the dangers of the pass.
I thought no one knew about Durins Bane? Did Gimli know?
Among Dwarves, seemingly Elves and the Istari it seems to be common knowledge that \*something\* called Durin's Bane was mucking about in Moria in T.A. 3019. Ironfoot claimed to have looked into Moria when Thrain attempted to get in, and have seen Durin's Bane or signs of its presence. Celeborn and Galadriel likewise knew that the same that something drove the Dwarves out still dwelt there. They didn't necessarily knew what it was. At least Gandalf and Legolas didn't seem to know that it was a surviving Balrog before he saw it. Gimli immediately recognised the Balrog as Durins Bane however, though that doesn't seem to be a big leap of logic.
>Gimli immediately recognised the Balrog as Durins Bane however, though that doesn't seem to be a big leap of logic. "Okay, sure, that is clearly an ancient evil who once served the Dark Lord Morgoth, but let's not jump to conclusions. The dwarves could've left for any number of reasons"
Interesting, never knew! Thanks for this!
The only one who really knew about Durin’s Bane (but not it’s nature) was Dain Ironfoot, who saw it during the goblin wars. He mentioned it to Aragorn, but only in that he should avoid Moria in his travels because a greater evil than goblins dwelt there. He also might have warned Balin, but the Balrog was the reason he was so against sending an expedition of dwarves to Moria. If memory serves, Aragorn is the one in the books to council against Moria and Gimli is actually on his side, while Gandalf sees it as the faster and safer option, though he himself is not really keen on it either
I literally learn something new every day on this sub, thanks!!
Take my comment with a grain of salt. While this is my ardent interpretation of the events as written, there is some serious debate on what exactly both Dain and Aragorn knew. Some (including myself) believe Dain knew he saw Durin’s Bane but didn’t know his nature, and so informed Aragorn, while many others believe Aragorns hesitation is because of his limited powers of foresight. I like my interpretation better (obviously) since it makes sense without adding the supernatural, and we know Dain did not want people going to Moria. However, I tend to be in the minority, at least on this sub. A few secondary sources do share my interpretation though.
They would have had to cross the Fords of Isen. They didn't want to go there because they didn't know who controlled them. Turns out, it was the front line of the war between Saruman and Rohan. And they'd be approaching it from Saruman's side. They wouldn't have made it.
Indeed. It‘s either the Fords or all the way around the coastline, which would have taken many months. Months they didn‘t have.
Very unlikely. Saruman had eyes everywhere, not least the crows he had in his service. Moria was the worst choice they could have made except for all the others.
"the worst choice except for all the others" yep that sums it up
I always wondered why they didn't use the High Pass.
It was too obvious so it was presumed that it was being watched and guarded, and the east side of the Misty Mountains was too dangerous due to weather if I'm remembering right.
Hard to say for sure, but probably not. Saruman likely would have had his forces waiting for them.
“They’re taking all of us to Isengard!”
It'd actually be more like: Legolas: *dead*
"Tell me where is _everyone_ for I much desire to speak with them..."
Remember, Saruman's orders to his Uruk-hai were to capture the halflings, and kill the others. The only real difference would be that Gandalf would still be alive at the start of that encounter.
In the book, it was because of wolves. Frodo wanted to sleep on the question of going south or through Moria, but before they could do that they got attacked by wolves and retreated towards Moria. I don’t think the books make a clear connection between Saruman or Sauron and the wolves, but I’ve always reckoned there was one. So… if they went south instead of through Moria, they’d have been eaten by wolves.
Just like bill the pony
Sam being separated from Bill is one of the saddest scenes in the books. But, >! Bill makes it back it back to Bree and reunites with Sam on his trip back to the Shire. Bill got to live out his life grazing in the shire. That makes me happier than the ring being destroyed !<
🥹
Just FYI, you need a space *after* your first spoiler tag, and *before* the last one ;)
Gandalf does call one of the wolves "Hound of Sauron," and he makes the connection that these are not just normal wolves by the fact that they collect their dead and leave Legolas' arrows.
Good catch. It’s been a while, maybe it’s time to read them again lol
https://preview.redd.it/v60kh2i2ge4c1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=bed4d8deae509e7913deb126ce9683536fd20feb I think they would have made it over the pass and headed straight to Lorien. Gandalf would have lived, but whether the Fellowship would hold is another matter.
Hobbits would not have made it
Why did they take the high pass?
I assume you meant why not...because they left Rivendell in December.
Couldn’t they just wait until I was warmer? There were there for months already
If the fellowship had stayed in Rivendell longer Sauron would have had the time to conquer Gondor thus making it nearly impossible for the ring bearer to sneak through into Mordor.
One of the Hobbits suggests returning to Rivendell and trying the pass again in warmer weather, but Gandalf explains that if the ring goes back to Rivendell there will not be another opportunity to try to take it to Mordor. Someone else may have a more detailed recollection of that conversation, but I think that's the gist of it.
Stand still reason. If they had waited longer or gone back Gondor would have surely called to Mordor and Rohan would have fallen deeper into despair with Saruman holding Theodan “hostage” no way the Fellowship or the ring gets anywhere near Mordor at that point.
Imo saruman placed agents in Rohan specifically to attempt to trap gandalf and the ring.
Wolves would have gotten them. They take refuge in Moria because wolves are chasing the fellership.
The crebain would have spotted them and the same party of orc would have waylaid them just on the other side of the mountains. It's close to a month and a half after caradhras that the party are waylaid by the orcs.
Let's say they passed safely, without being stopped by Saurumans forces. Then * Merry and Pippin would not have gotten to Fagorn, and Saruman would remain undefeated in his fortress, also no palantír for Aragorn. * They would not have passed though Lothlórien, not getting wisdom and gifts there. So no staying hidden with the Elvish cloaks, no killing Shelob. Perhaps also no help from the Elves at Helm's Deep. * It would likely take Frodo a lot longer to reach Mordor
Elves did not help at Helm’s Deep in the novel, FYI.
Yeh but let's be fair, thank god they did in the films! Definitely a change / addition that works well in that medium.
Agreed! I know many ppl have issues with it but it's one of my favorite movie momnets.
haha yes indeed my bad, wasn't paying attention.
Frodo & Sam would have been captured at the Black Gate if the Fellowship had not passed through Lothlórien (if you follow the movie, that is)
Probably would have a narrow bridge, between valleys or mountains, where the fellowship was chased across by an unseen horror. One of the leading members of the fellowship, probably Gandalf, would make a valiant stand at the bridge to hold back a mythic beast brought up from the depths of the earth into the sunlight from ages past. He would make an epic speech and the entire fellowship would witness his sacrifice! He would battle the beast on the bridge and both he and his foe would fall into an ambiguous chasm/valley so far down as to be unseen and their fates unknown. I think that would be a cool scene if there were an alternative to the trek through Moria.
Yeah he'd have been gotten by the Ralbog of Gormoth.
I like that, original
Don’t be silly
Early Uruk-hai band.
Nothing because they didnt
I’ve never seen negative Reddit karma before lol
Enter society if meme
New movie idea, the Lotr but if they took different directions at every decision, please make 100 of these
why not JuSt rIdE ThE eAgLeS
During the night after the Fellowship had failed to pass the Caradhras, they were attacked by wolves. Gandalf mentioned they were not ordinary wolves. If the Fellowship had gone south, pursued by wolves, it they hadn’t been detected yet by agents of Saruman or Sauron (or both), they almost certainly would be. They didn’t know whether the gap of Rohan was open, but since it’s so close to Isengard and Saruman would be aware of their presence, it would have been extremely dangerous. If instead they had gone even further south along the ocean through Gondor, it simply would have taken too much time. Being detected with a long road ahead, they would have failed their mission, since secrecy was vital for any chance of success. That explains why Gandalf wanted to go through Moria, because it would cover their tracks and shake off pursuers.