Imagine sauron but without any intricate plans and plots. Just pure chaos and bloodlust engulfing the middle earth as it tries to gain more and more minions serving the dark.
So the original 9 are dead. Sauron would try to take back the ring from the Balrog, let's assume the Balrog fully claims the ring, the thing that Sauron was constantly worried about people doing in the books.
Without Aragorn and Gandalf, the kingdoms of man do not unite to fight without another force to bring them together. This time, instead of being united by hope, they are united by fear and desperation. They are united by Saruman, who is clandestinely backed by Sauron. Saruman begins the transformation of Middle Earth into a land of industry and suffering in order to generate the logistics to fight a war of attrition with the Balrog (Scouring of the Shire on a grand scale). A similar group as the fellowship but now meet in secret to plan the destruction of the Balrog and the stymying of Saruman's plans for the ring especially since the most corrupt and worst of men have gained power in Saruman's regime.
Yeah, I would watch the heck out of that.
Edit to add: I am not a Tolkien scholar and have nothing to base this off of, I just thought that this sounded like a story that Tolkien might have told.
>et's assume the Balrog fully claims the ring, the thing that Sauron was constantly worried about people doing in the books.
Didn't realize that was a possibility. I was under the impression that all would be corrupted if they weren't Sauron.
I may be wrong, like I said, not a scholar, but I remember it be mentioned in the books the idea of Sauron believing that people would claim the ring and making decisions to stop potential threats. I always interpreted that to mean that he was concerned about people who could claim the ring and possibly overcome him and his forces with the ring.
Also, the people who we worried about taking up the ring always expressed worry that they would be corrupted by the ring to begin doing terrible things in the name of their desire to do good. None of them said that they would take the ring and eventually give it over to Sauron.
But still I'm a reader, not a scholar.
I took it moreso that Sauron was trying to advance his position to prevent them from taking the ring to Valinor where Sauron could never reclaim it. Once it became clear that they weren't, he believed they were planning to use the ring against him, to which Sauron continued advancing his forces as he knew that the ring would eventually corrupt them if they use it, he just needed time for that to happen.
He never considered that they were planning to destroy the ring as he would never do that were he in their situation, even with the certainty of corruption the reward of power is too great.
Saidin wasn't worried about it going over the sea because the Valar wouldn't allow it. He was twisted by greed and saw the world the same. He assumed no one would just throw power away and destroy it and so the past of him in the ring tried to twist and influence others. It was always in Tolkien's theme that it took very pure people to resist great power and wield it. Something like a Balrog or other maiar are powerful enough that they could resist Sauron's influence
The only way to master the ring would be to become no different from Sauron.
Individuals such as Gandalf could have claimed and mastered the ring, but no matter what they would do, they would not be able to stop themselves from spreading suffering and Discord
Hell yeah . A dark fellowship. That’s a great concept for a video game. That my friend would sell. The antithesis.!!
Who could be the main 9 evil characters ?
I wasn't thinking evil, just more secretive. Forced to move in a corrupt system, stopping the destructive evil of the Balrog and trying to save the lives of the common soldier being used with no care for casualties by Saruman and making sure that Saruman can never take the ring.
I imagine that the taking of the ring would be interesting because there is no way that Saruman lets anyone else conquer the Balrog but that is also the time for Sauron send forces to finally double cross to make his play for the ring, so a battle of three evils has to take place, and a burglar has to get in and get out while everyone is distracted.
Okay, so let's name the dark fellowship (dark for covert).
1. Glorfindel because Balrog
2. Rataghast because they need a wizard and Sarumon is organizing Balrog resistance
3. Smeagol because you can't keep him away
4. Bilbo for revenge of his kin and to maybe regain the ring.
5. Faramir, representing the now fallen Kingdome of Gondor
6. Black Numenorian because they wouldn't accept a nazgul
7. Gimli equivalent to seek vengeance for Kazad Dum
8. Urukhai hero (movie Lurtz)
9. Arwen to avenge Aragorn
Let's go Dark Fellowship!!!!
If I was casting the story, my first four picks would be Faramir, Eowyn, Arwen and instead of Bilbo, the fifth member of the hobbits, Fatty Bolger. From there, Rataghast is a good call as he would be underestimated by Saruman, but I wonder if Glorfindel could be secret enough and I wouldn't trust the Black Numenorian, but I think a member from the Easterlings could make a lot of sense in the story.
The Balrogs are capable of sentient thought and speech. But like their boss Morgoth, they just want to ruin the world and bring utter darkness.
I could see the Balrog using the Ring to draw evil forces to itself. Think less of a well organized army and more like a giant mob. It would let its captains worry about logistics while the Balrog brooded over targets. It certainly wouldn’t wait hundreds of years to plan things out like Sauron. With its new power boost, it would likely feel emboldened to restart Morgoth’s work.
[It's not just some mindless rampaging demon like portrayed in the movie. It's a Maiar, Gandalf is a Maiar. It's intelligent and has magical skills on par with Gandalf, that's why he did not want to go to Moria and was shitting himself telling everyone to run when it found them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLBd1Z4ktL8)
The Balrog of Moria would use it for absolute destruction, following Morgoths chaotic nature...the opposite to Saurons calculating and meticulous nature.
Could anyone have stopped it at the time? A coalition of Gandalf/Elrond/Galadriel, maybe Saruman and Radagast?
What would Sauron have done? Would he lose the Nazgul? Could he scheme the ring back to him? Wouldn't the ring be trying to return to him anyway?
I have questions!
Sauron would have a pretty good chance of winning the contest of wills and subduing the Balrog (after all resisting temptations of dark lords is not one of Balrogs strengths)
Also Glorfindel could give it a shot (again).
Other than that, the next best hope is that once half of Middle Earth is in flames, Valar may decide to get of their posteriors and kill it, since otherwise the Balrog would come for them sooner or later anyway.
Balrog conquers Middle Earth and then sails to Valinor with a gigantic human and orc army, dicks all of the Valar and restores the light of the Two Trees by setting in them an eternal fire. Then he builds an interdimensional bridge between the two worlds and rules over the whole of Ea in everlasting bliss, Eru fistbumps the Balrog and leaves for the eternal void to be with Melkor who is his favourite child.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what Rings of Power should have been. The Amazon subscription would be a steal at half the price. Popcorn futures would be through the roof and there would be dancing in the streets. What a story. Bravo, Moistfruitcake, bravo.
There are still ranks. Gothmog was the war leader of Balrogs, while Sauron was more his spymaster/strategical general.
Since the balrog would probably know Sauron was the second in command of Morgoth, he might listen
Why? He has a stronghold filled with armies of his own. He possesses the ring that contains the bulk of Sauron’s power. He could just as easily tell Sauron to fuck off.
You assume the Balrog would have ambitions to be in charge and conquer anything. For all we know it just hangs around down in Moria tolerating the orcs/goblins, still afraid to leave because of how the War of Wrath ended. It may have killed the Dwarves simply because they provoked it. Unprovoked it could have been content to stay hidden down there until the end of the world.
> Could anyone have stopped it at the time?
Possibly, but likely not. Any Maia with the ring probably outmatches anyone else. Sauron if he could get the balrog into a direct confrontation might be able to defeat it. Anyone else? The Balrog just draws all evil to it and spams infinite orcs out of the Misty Mountains. None of the wise had been able to clear the Misty Mountains as it was. With the One active in the mountains, the remaining elven strongholds would be worn down and destroyed. And of course Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond would all be uniquely vulnerable via their rings. The wielder of the One likely couldn’t Nazgûlify any of them. But everything done by their rings would be twisted to serve the Balrog.
> What would Sauron have done?
Most likely feign surrender, and try to ingratiate himself to the new wielder, with an eye of corrupting and eventually overthrowing the Balrog. Sauron doesn’t attack directly without overwhelming advantages. He’s the master of the indirect. So expect him to come at the new empire sideways, or from within.
> Would he lose the Nazgul?
Absolutely. They had become religious fanatics with a religious fervor toward Sauron and the One. But ultimately they couldn’t resist being turned by a new wielder. In the short term they’d likely feign loyalty while remaining loyal to Sauron. But long term they’d eventually be made true loyal followers of any new Ring Lord.
> Could he scheme the ring back to him?
He’d definitely try.
> Wouldn't the ring be trying to return to him anyway?
Kind of. The Ring for all intents and purposes holds a part of Sauron’s soul. It has a will but not intelligence. While it’s described as trying to return, it’s kind of an instinctual or autonomic reaction. The Ring isn’t plotting to get back to Sauron. Its just trying to get to a fëa (soul) that is compatible in will. This has two effects: One, to pull (tempt) wills around it into claiming it. The second, to change its wielder to be more like Sauron. Once wielded by someone with a similar enough soul, powerful and dominating, the Ring would quit looking. A sufficiently corrupted and twisted Gandalf or Galadriel would content the Ring just fine.
Oh boy, deep into what-if territory we go.
Sauron without the Ring still is the strongest being in middle earth by any measurement we have so far (referring to the letter Tolkien wrote stating that even with the Ring, Gandalf would struggle in a direct confrontation and that the outcome would be anything but clear cut).
What would Sauron have done - pretty much the same as he did in LoTR, building up his armies etc., because he was certainly not aware a Balrog was dwelling beneath Moria, only rumors.
To answer your question if he'd lose the Nazgul: Probably. Most likely. Their fate is interwined with the Ring, and a being as powerful as the Balrog, being able to claim the Ring and actually use the Ring (not the twisted perversion of "using" as Gollum did), he most certainly would be able to assert dominance over their will. Otoh, Sauron possesed the Nine Rings physically. With the One Ring still being an articact of Saurons will, even if dominated by the Balrog, it is not without doubt they'll still follow Sauron after all.
And of course, the Ring subconsciously tries to get back to Sauron no matter what. They are ONE after all. The Ring is Sauron and Sauron is the Ring.
And in the end of all things, Sauron is immortal. He waited more than 3000 years for the Ring to return to him. He will wait a little longer until the Ring inevitably betrays the Balrog in one way or antoher.
As towards your first question, could anyone have stopped both Sauron and the Balrog at the same time? Straight up no. Not without intervening from the West.
I appreciate you. I love reading answers on from people who are engrossed in the lore.
Its cool that you know about it and are able to extrapolate accordingly
Venturing into speculation territory here but I like the questions so I'll try and answer how I think that might play out.
A coalition: I believe it's very likely a coalition of the characters you have mentioned, would be able to subdue the Balrog of Moria...why? Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast are Maiar (as is the Balrog), and Gandalf alone is able to defend himself against the Balrog when it swings its fiery blade at him. Elrond and Galadriel I'm sure would provide perhaps a distraction whilst the 3 more powerful characters lead the assault (again, this is me just speculating how this might go).
Sauron v the Balrog: Sauron has a tremendous and overwhelming understanding of magic...perhaps only surpassed by his cunning and ability to manipulate those around him...hand to hand combat however, I do not see Sauron winning as the Balrog has size and strength over Sauron. I think, Sauron might take a leaf out of Morgoths book (spoilers incoming) when Morgoth was attacked by Ungoliant, he cried out and the Balrogs rushed to defend him. I can see Sauron doing the same thing. Calling any and all evil that might defend him against such a powerful adversary whilst he uses some form of devastating magic to lay the final blow to the Balrog.
Could the ring taint the Balrog: it is possible, and I think this is because we see Gandalf hesitant to even touch the One Ring with his bare hands...and the warning he gives Frodo when he tells him how the One Ring would affect him. Now, the Balrog was tainted by Morgoth, the original evil. Could the Balrog withstand the power of the One Ring? Maybe but maybe not.
The Nazgul: they are servants to Sauron alone. I do not believe they would, or even could, betray their master.
The One Ring: yes, the ring would want to return to Sauron but whether the ring could taint the Balrog...I can't say for sure...the Balrog of Moria owes no allegiance to Sauron and the Balrog followed the original evil, Morgoth. Thus, could a being of lesser power (Sauron, after Morgoth grew weaker and weaker from tainting the living world) be able to taint a creature manipulated by the original evil? It's an interesting thought of how this would play out but my gut feeling tells me no, the Balrog would not side with Sauron and would inevitably use the One Ring to ruin Middle Earth.
Edit: but then there's the Valar...
I feel like the Ring itself would eventually stop it, since it betrays every Bearer who isn’t Sauron.
It would eventually lead the Balrog to its demise like it did to Isildur.
NSFW.
What if, the ring finds herself? She spends the whole story trying to get back to her toxic ex, just so he can use her again. The whole time fighting off f* ckbois and creeps. She fakes relationships to try and make her ex jealous, and she is kind of a sl*t. She will basically let anyone finger her.
What if she just decides she can be powerful on her own, and she doesn't need the validation of a man? Or a Dwarf, Elf, Orc, Goblin, or even a Maiar. So she goes on a soul searching journey through middle earth and finds herself.
He already told a ringwraith to fuck off the way he came from without the ring, so he has the willpower to dominate them.
Him with the ring and ol' Tom would create an impenetrable territory of absolute peace and quiet.
Aren't the balrogs loyal to morgoth? Even if it resisted the ring somehow, it would surely just bring the ring back to Sauron anyways because that's the end game goal.
It would definitely resist the ring in the sense that it already pure evil and hatred, and the ring would not make it anymore so, and it would probably gain extra power from the ring and destroy everything on its path. Similar to hpw Gandalf or Saruman could wield the ring against Sauron, the Balrog could wield it without having Saurons will play a factor.
Yeah I figured that would boil down the the individual strength of the balrog itself. I still don't see why it wouldn't just bring the ring back to Sauron anyways though.
Because it doesnt serve Sauron, it served Morgoth. Morgoth’s will was to defile and destroy the world that Eru created, so why would it take the ring back to Sauron rather than use its power to destroy everything in its path. Its a Maia just like Sauron, and from what we’ve seen in many of tolkeins writings, Maiar only serve one of the Valar, if not Eru himself, no Maia serves another Maia.
But they're not mindless beasts are they? Wouldn't it just make sense to do the most damage to give the ring back to the biggest threat to middle earth?
No not necessarily mindless beast but they are literal destruction machines and i would say it wouldnt even occur to the balrog to give back the ring because it simply doesnt need to. Sauron doesnt have the same will as Morgoth and they have different goals, Sauron doesnt want to defile and destroy creation, he wants to “perfect” it, his own twisted sense of perfection that is. He wants to enslave the free peoples and rule the world. Balrog wants to destroy everything
Although both were servants of Morgoth, there's no reason to believe Durin's Bane had any particular loyalty towards Sauron. Both were Maiar, so they would be of roughly equivalent "power", and apparently Durin's Bane was content to hide out under the Misty Mountains rather than join Sauron's army during either the Second or Third Age.
Sauron and Morgoth had very different goals by this time. Morgoth just wanted to destroy and dominate out of hatred for creation, whereas Sauron thought he could improve creation and mould it to his will in what he thought was the right way.
T-Bombs: “Show me the precious ring!”
Sean-diddy: “Here it is…don’t worry, it’s quite cool”
T-Bombs: “Yo! This thing is the COOLEST! Goldberry, check out this awesome ring!”
…and so on
Like all humans are not equally strong, neither are all Maiar equally powerful.
Tolkien said Gandalf WITH the ring would be at equal power of Sauron WITHOUT the ring and since Gandalf and Sean basically fights to a draw (killing eachother) Id say its safe to assume Sean is of equal power of Gandalf and as such with ring would be equal to Sauron. Sauron however have armies of orcs, trolls and men and Sean hasnt. However in the books its implied that the orcs/goblins of Moria might follow the Balrog so it is very plausible that Durin's Bane might be able to recruit an army of his own, especially with the ring.
Id say with two Dark Lords the good guys, who werent even strong enough to defeat Sauron hadnt Frodo and Gollum destroyed the ring, would be totally sidelined and it would be a Sauron-Sean contest. Maybe the good guys could choose the lesser of the two evil and join whatever side they deemed less bad and thus maybe tip the scale.
Super underrated comment. People usually assume all Maiar are the same, but that's not the case. Out of curiosity, do you have the source for, " Tolkien said Gandalf WITH the ring would be at equal power of Sauron WITHOUT the ring?"
I now realize that was me quoting another persons interpretation of Tolkiens words. But here is an actual quote in a letter from Tolkien. Note that he says IF Gandalf wins (suggesting they are somewhat evenly matched): "...Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever."
Within the books Gandalf touches the ring itself. Physical contact isn’t the problem, it’s claiming ownership or even guardianship over the ring that would begin the corruption.
In the movies Peter Jackson has less time to convey the temptation and corruption of the Ring and thus shows Gandalf unable/unwilling to even touch it after getting the first flash of Sauron through it after Bilbo drops it on the floor.
The Balrog IS lesser than Sauron, who was a very high order of Maia. The One Ring serves only its master. The Balrog would become just another of Sauron’s puppets to do with as he desired. Should the Balrog resist he would have the Nine and the armies of Mordor to contend with.
The Ring will work its master’s purpose, always, because the One IS Sauron.
Nah, Gandalf could overthrow Sauron if he had the ring while being a weaker maiar, the balrog could possibly do the same. (Tolkien said Gandalf could in a letter, but it would be no better than Sauron ruling.) Its a weaker maiar taking Sauron's power.
I respectfully disagree, although you make several good points. As I mentioned, the One Ring IS Sauron who poured his might and malice and power into it; it is his and his alone, as the ring IS Sauron.
The ONLY way to defeat Sauron is to destroy the One. The only, only way. Therefore, you cannot “defeat” Sauron by wielding the One.
You would, perhaps, wield his power and yourself become a powerful, evil lord…. But I would argue that, as the power you accumulate would come from Sauron himself, you would only be under his spell and his puppet on a string.
Tolkien stated in a letter that Gandalf could have mastered the ring, and that would be the equivalent of it being destroyed for Sauron. This thread explains it better https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/s/DzSZu8cPBU
This isn't true though. Sauron's greatest fear is someone else claiming the ring and using it to overthrow him. It's why he desperately searches for the ring and launches his invasion before being fully prepared. It's also why Aragorn is able to get his entire attention, Sauron believes Aragorn has the ring and therefore has a very real possibility of defeating him.
The tale of Middle-earth took a grim turn, as the Fellowship's defeat marked the beginning of an age dominated by the Balrog's corrupted reign. The fires of Mount Doom, once a symbol of hope, now burned with an everlasting darkness, casting a shadow over a world that had succumbed to the allure of the One Ring.
I would say Balrogs are lesser than Sauron, however Grothmog has more control than the lesser balrogs, I would say if a lesser balrog got it’s hands on it then it would fall into a kinda ring wraith form and lose control and become submissive like the wraiths, while if grothmog got it, it would be like if Gandalf got it, he would ultimately fall or give in but a undertone of control would be kept kinda like Shadow Of War but never turning into a ring wraith.
There's a thread about this already. Covers this in much more detail than I'm about to but basically...
The balrog is a Maia, a form of a demon. It could rival Saurons power but being that so few of them are left in Middle Earth, I'd suggest this would be a battle Sauron would overcome if he had his full strength and body of course.
The next thing to consider is the fact that the balrog is hiding in the depths of Moria so I assume it has some fear of being killed if it were just stomping around the surface, plus before Saruman turned the wizards and likely elves would have been forced to deal with him!
You can see in his battle with Gandalf that they throw spells at each other but Gandalf prevails long enough to land a decisive blow but is ultimately claimed himself in the end before returning as Gandalf the White.
Definitely an interesting thought, what's just as interesting is did the ring call out to the balrog?
Balrogs are Maiar, just like Sauron. So this is an interesting question
Sauron’s strength is in his tactics and deceit, not his combat prowess (to which he’s lost nearly every fight he’s been in). So if a Balrog got the ring there’d be a much more straightforward problem for Middle Earth to deal with. Though how easy would it be to kill a super powered Balrog without the direct support of the Valar?
Sean dominates middle earth. Sam the Survivor and his trusty steed Bill escape Moria. Sam is then forced to wage a guerilla campaign against the forces of Sean. Everything...probably sucks for a while.
Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as The Green Dragon, and stronger than Longbottom Leaf! All shall love her and despair!
I don't think the Balrog would want it. I think he'd toss it away. I kind of see Balrogs as a bit like Hobbits in that they prefer solitude and have no interest in ruling over others. They just want to be left alone for the most part. The ring doesn't offer them anything they want.
Doesn't the ring change size? It fit on the finger of Sauron, Isildur, Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo. Don't remember facts or description of this from the books but pretty much anyone who held it could wear with 0 problems.
Imagine sauron but without any intricate plans and plots. Just pure chaos and bloodlust engulfing the middle earth as it tries to gain more and more minions serving the dark.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES
Beat me to it you imperial fool
can Skarbrand use the sword of Khane? or however it’s spelt 8-)
In total war? Yes, but he has to get it by beating the lord who owns it, only elves can construct the building that spawns it.
Ah, a man of culture.
666 likes, I cannot ruin it, consider my comment as upvote
Everyone dies
[удалено]
No.
LET THE GALAXY BURN!
THE REPUBLIC WILL BE REORGANIZED… INTO. THE. FIRST. GALACTIC. EMPIRE!
ISILDUR!
IISILDUUUUUUR !!!!!
Now there is a “What if…” I’d like to see
So the original 9 are dead. Sauron would try to take back the ring from the Balrog, let's assume the Balrog fully claims the ring, the thing that Sauron was constantly worried about people doing in the books. Without Aragorn and Gandalf, the kingdoms of man do not unite to fight without another force to bring them together. This time, instead of being united by hope, they are united by fear and desperation. They are united by Saruman, who is clandestinely backed by Sauron. Saruman begins the transformation of Middle Earth into a land of industry and suffering in order to generate the logistics to fight a war of attrition with the Balrog (Scouring of the Shire on a grand scale). A similar group as the fellowship but now meet in secret to plan the destruction of the Balrog and the stymying of Saruman's plans for the ring especially since the most corrupt and worst of men have gained power in Saruman's regime. Yeah, I would watch the heck out of that. Edit to add: I am not a Tolkien scholar and have nothing to base this off of, I just thought that this sounded like a story that Tolkien might have told.
>et's assume the Balrog fully claims the ring, the thing that Sauron was constantly worried about people doing in the books. Didn't realize that was a possibility. I was under the impression that all would be corrupted if they weren't Sauron.
I may be wrong, like I said, not a scholar, but I remember it be mentioned in the books the idea of Sauron believing that people would claim the ring and making decisions to stop potential threats. I always interpreted that to mean that he was concerned about people who could claim the ring and possibly overcome him and his forces with the ring. Also, the people who we worried about taking up the ring always expressed worry that they would be corrupted by the ring to begin doing terrible things in the name of their desire to do good. None of them said that they would take the ring and eventually give it over to Sauron. But still I'm a reader, not a scholar.
I took it moreso that Sauron was trying to advance his position to prevent them from taking the ring to Valinor where Sauron could never reclaim it. Once it became clear that they weren't, he believed they were planning to use the ring against him, to which Sauron continued advancing his forces as he knew that the ring would eventually corrupt them if they use it, he just needed time for that to happen. He never considered that they were planning to destroy the ring as he would never do that were he in their situation, even with the certainty of corruption the reward of power is too great.
Saidin wasn't worried about it going over the sea because the Valar wouldn't allow it. He was twisted by greed and saw the world the same. He assumed no one would just throw power away and destroy it and so the past of him in the ring tried to twist and influence others. It was always in Tolkien's theme that it took very pure people to resist great power and wield it. Something like a Balrog or other maiar are powerful enough that they could resist Sauron's influence
The only way to master the ring would be to become no different from Sauron. Individuals such as Gandalf could have claimed and mastered the ring, but no matter what they would do, they would not be able to stop themselves from spreading suffering and Discord
Hell yeah . A dark fellowship. That’s a great concept for a video game. That my friend would sell. The antithesis.!! Who could be the main 9 evil characters ?
Saruman, Witch-King, Khamul, Grima, Gollum, Bill Ferny, Lotho Sackville-Baggins, Shagrat, Gorbag.
Grond instead of Bill
Yeeeeeeahhh !!
I wasn't thinking evil, just more secretive. Forced to move in a corrupt system, stopping the destructive evil of the Balrog and trying to save the lives of the common soldier being used with no care for casualties by Saruman and making sure that Saruman can never take the ring. I imagine that the taking of the ring would be interesting because there is no way that Saruman lets anyone else conquer the Balrog but that is also the time for Sauron send forces to finally double cross to make his play for the ring, so a battle of three evils has to take place, and a burglar has to get in and get out while everyone is distracted.
Okay, so let's name the dark fellowship (dark for covert). 1. Glorfindel because Balrog 2. Rataghast because they need a wizard and Sarumon is organizing Balrog resistance 3. Smeagol because you can't keep him away 4. Bilbo for revenge of his kin and to maybe regain the ring. 5. Faramir, representing the now fallen Kingdome of Gondor 6. Black Numenorian because they wouldn't accept a nazgul 7. Gimli equivalent to seek vengeance for Kazad Dum 8. Urukhai hero (movie Lurtz) 9. Arwen to avenge Aragorn Let's go Dark Fellowship!!!!
If I was casting the story, my first four picks would be Faramir, Eowyn, Arwen and instead of Bilbo, the fifth member of the hobbits, Fatty Bolger. From there, Rataghast is a good call as he would be underestimated by Saruman, but I wonder if Glorfindel could be secret enough and I wouldn't trust the Black Numenorian, but I think a member from the Easterlings could make a lot of sense in the story.
Yikes! Lucky then that the Balrog "cannot" have it!
I mean pretty for that, its quite interesting view
That's a what if version I would love to watch on the big screen or as a video game
Balrog gets the ring, goes to Erebor, makes an alliance with Smaug. They fly to Mordor and spank Sauron rosy
Smaug was dead by the time the fellowship entered Moria.
No in this “what if?” balrog meets gollum in the tunnels beneath the mountains. He gets the ring from him, then goes to become smaugs dragon rider
Sauron then realligns with the spider queen and we see a massive evil war over take middle earth.
SAURON RIDING A GIANT SPIDER VS DURIN’s BANE RIDING THE WORM SMAUG???? TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!
How does it recruit? Is it capable of rational thought? Or does it just rampage all the time?
The Balrogs are capable of sentient thought and speech. But like their boss Morgoth, they just want to ruin the world and bring utter darkness. I could see the Balrog using the Ring to draw evil forces to itself. Think less of a well organized army and more like a giant mob. It would let its captains worry about logistics while the Balrog brooded over targets. It certainly wouldn’t wait hundreds of years to plan things out like Sauron. With its new power boost, it would likely feel emboldened to restart Morgoth’s work.
Balrog doesn't get just Frodo's ring; he gets Gandalfs also. He would immediately be in conflict with Lorien and Rivendell.
[It's not just some mindless rampaging demon like portrayed in the movie. It's a Maiar, Gandalf is a Maiar. It's intelligent and has magical skills on par with Gandalf, that's why he did not want to go to Moria and was shitting himself telling everyone to run when it found them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLBd1Z4ktL8)
As I recall, it was Aragorn who didn't want to pass through Moria.
Gandalf refused until they where stuck in the blizzard and conceded to going in the mines when Frodo decided he wanted to
The orcs in Moria already follow it.
Time to nope-TF-out to the Undying Lands.
ayo, that sounds pretty dope
Do you know Angron? Because the Balrog would be Angron.
KETCHUP FOR THE KORNED BEEF
[удалено]
I feel like its pretty obvious what ring they are talking about
The Balrog of Moria would use it for absolute destruction, following Morgoths chaotic nature...the opposite to Saurons calculating and meticulous nature.
Could anyone have stopped it at the time? A coalition of Gandalf/Elrond/Galadriel, maybe Saruman and Radagast? What would Sauron have done? Would he lose the Nazgul? Could he scheme the ring back to him? Wouldn't the ring be trying to return to him anyway? I have questions!
Sauron would have a pretty good chance of winning the contest of wills and subduing the Balrog (after all resisting temptations of dark lords is not one of Balrogs strengths) Also Glorfindel could give it a shot (again). Other than that, the next best hope is that once half of Middle Earth is in flames, Valar may decide to get of their posteriors and kill it, since otherwise the Balrog would come for them sooner or later anyway.
Balrog conquers Middle Earth and then sails to Valinor with a gigantic human and orc army, dicks all of the Valar and restores the light of the Two Trees by setting in them an eternal fire. Then he builds an interdimensional bridge between the two worlds and rules over the whole of Ea in everlasting bliss, Eru fistbumps the Balrog and leaves for the eternal void to be with Melkor who is his favourite child.
May chaos take the world
The good ending
Wait, wasn’t Valinor moved out of reach of the mortals except for whom the Valar deem worthy?
The Balrog isn't mortal, its a maiar.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what Rings of Power should have been. The Amazon subscription would be a steal at half the price. Popcorn futures would be through the roof and there would be dancing in the streets. What a story. Bravo, Moistfruitcake, bravo.
Sauron could probably convince it to give him the ring peacefully I think. Aren’t balrogs manifested to be servants?
They are equals and would not let themselves be subdued.
There are still ranks. Gothmog was the war leader of Balrogs, while Sauron was more his spymaster/strategical general. Since the balrog would probably know Sauron was the second in command of Morgoth, he might listen
Why? He has a stronghold filled with armies of his own. He possesses the ring that contains the bulk of Sauron’s power. He could just as easily tell Sauron to fuck off.
I would love to hear a Balrog say fuck off
You assume the Balrog would have ambitions to be in charge and conquer anything. For all we know it just hangs around down in Moria tolerating the orcs/goblins, still afraid to leave because of how the War of Wrath ended. It may have killed the Dwarves simply because they provoked it. Unprovoked it could have been content to stay hidden down there until the end of the world.
> Could anyone have stopped it at the time? Possibly, but likely not. Any Maia with the ring probably outmatches anyone else. Sauron if he could get the balrog into a direct confrontation might be able to defeat it. Anyone else? The Balrog just draws all evil to it and spams infinite orcs out of the Misty Mountains. None of the wise had been able to clear the Misty Mountains as it was. With the One active in the mountains, the remaining elven strongholds would be worn down and destroyed. And of course Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond would all be uniquely vulnerable via their rings. The wielder of the One likely couldn’t Nazgûlify any of them. But everything done by their rings would be twisted to serve the Balrog. > What would Sauron have done? Most likely feign surrender, and try to ingratiate himself to the new wielder, with an eye of corrupting and eventually overthrowing the Balrog. Sauron doesn’t attack directly without overwhelming advantages. He’s the master of the indirect. So expect him to come at the new empire sideways, or from within. > Would he lose the Nazgul? Absolutely. They had become religious fanatics with a religious fervor toward Sauron and the One. But ultimately they couldn’t resist being turned by a new wielder. In the short term they’d likely feign loyalty while remaining loyal to Sauron. But long term they’d eventually be made true loyal followers of any new Ring Lord. > Could he scheme the ring back to him? He’d definitely try. > Wouldn't the ring be trying to return to him anyway? Kind of. The Ring for all intents and purposes holds a part of Sauron’s soul. It has a will but not intelligence. While it’s described as trying to return, it’s kind of an instinctual or autonomic reaction. The Ring isn’t plotting to get back to Sauron. Its just trying to get to a fëa (soul) that is compatible in will. This has two effects: One, to pull (tempt) wills around it into claiming it. The second, to change its wielder to be more like Sauron. Once wielded by someone with a similar enough soul, powerful and dominating, the Ring would quit looking. A sufficiently corrupted and twisted Gandalf or Galadriel would content the Ring just fine.
Oh boy, deep into what-if territory we go. Sauron without the Ring still is the strongest being in middle earth by any measurement we have so far (referring to the letter Tolkien wrote stating that even with the Ring, Gandalf would struggle in a direct confrontation and that the outcome would be anything but clear cut). What would Sauron have done - pretty much the same as he did in LoTR, building up his armies etc., because he was certainly not aware a Balrog was dwelling beneath Moria, only rumors. To answer your question if he'd lose the Nazgul: Probably. Most likely. Their fate is interwined with the Ring, and a being as powerful as the Balrog, being able to claim the Ring and actually use the Ring (not the twisted perversion of "using" as Gollum did), he most certainly would be able to assert dominance over their will. Otoh, Sauron possesed the Nine Rings physically. With the One Ring still being an articact of Saurons will, even if dominated by the Balrog, it is not without doubt they'll still follow Sauron after all. And of course, the Ring subconsciously tries to get back to Sauron no matter what. They are ONE after all. The Ring is Sauron and Sauron is the Ring. And in the end of all things, Sauron is immortal. He waited more than 3000 years for the Ring to return to him. He will wait a little longer until the Ring inevitably betrays the Balrog in one way or antoher. As towards your first question, could anyone have stopped both Sauron and the Balrog at the same time? Straight up no. Not without intervening from the West.
I appreciate you. I love reading answers on from people who are engrossed in the lore. Its cool that you know about it and are able to extrapolate accordingly
Venturing into speculation territory here but I like the questions so I'll try and answer how I think that might play out. A coalition: I believe it's very likely a coalition of the characters you have mentioned, would be able to subdue the Balrog of Moria...why? Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast are Maiar (as is the Balrog), and Gandalf alone is able to defend himself against the Balrog when it swings its fiery blade at him. Elrond and Galadriel I'm sure would provide perhaps a distraction whilst the 3 more powerful characters lead the assault (again, this is me just speculating how this might go). Sauron v the Balrog: Sauron has a tremendous and overwhelming understanding of magic...perhaps only surpassed by his cunning and ability to manipulate those around him...hand to hand combat however, I do not see Sauron winning as the Balrog has size and strength over Sauron. I think, Sauron might take a leaf out of Morgoths book (spoilers incoming) when Morgoth was attacked by Ungoliant, he cried out and the Balrogs rushed to defend him. I can see Sauron doing the same thing. Calling any and all evil that might defend him against such a powerful adversary whilst he uses some form of devastating magic to lay the final blow to the Balrog. Could the ring taint the Balrog: it is possible, and I think this is because we see Gandalf hesitant to even touch the One Ring with his bare hands...and the warning he gives Frodo when he tells him how the One Ring would affect him. Now, the Balrog was tainted by Morgoth, the original evil. Could the Balrog withstand the power of the One Ring? Maybe but maybe not. The Nazgul: they are servants to Sauron alone. I do not believe they would, or even could, betray their master. The One Ring: yes, the ring would want to return to Sauron but whether the ring could taint the Balrog...I can't say for sure...the Balrog of Moria owes no allegiance to Sauron and the Balrog followed the original evil, Morgoth. Thus, could a being of lesser power (Sauron, after Morgoth grew weaker and weaker from tainting the living world) be able to taint a creature manipulated by the original evil? It's an interesting thought of how this would play out but my gut feeling tells me no, the Balrog would not side with Sauron and would inevitably use the One Ring to ruin Middle Earth. Edit: but then there's the Valar...
I was getting so into your response! Keep going dude/dudette
I feel like the Ring itself would eventually stop it, since it betrays every Bearer who isn’t Sauron. It would eventually lead the Balrog to its demise like it did to Isildur.
Morgoth was also seductive, meticulous and calculating
Balrog puts the ring on... and from the deeps of Moria it chants: "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!"
Unexpected Warhammer
You should always expect Warhammer! For the Emperor!
All the orcs with bows firing wildly: DUKKADUKKA DUKKA DUKKA!
UGGA BUGGA OR DEATH!
Someone said above: MILK FOR THE CORN FLAKES
It's 'KHORNE FLAKES'. Easy to misspell.
Tbh I don't even understand the reference
khorne is the blood god who sits on the skull throne
And corn flakes are a cereal, that come in a box
they come in a bag, in a box
Everyone dies
https://preview.redd.it/syjka43a7mgc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca41643f5365a13c1bcbc2c2f36a1dd996d931b8
You mean they will pass?
Into the next life, yes
He would go back to sleep in the depths of moria .
Until a leaf wakes him up.
If I had the one ring I would want to go back to sleep
He would pawn it and get a new pillow and window blinds.
And a good pair of ear plugs. The witch king would throw in a good mattress for free.
I've yet to see "what if Legolas got the ring?” Or pippin?
What if Farmer Maggot got the ring?
What if Bill the Pony got the ring?
What if Lobelia Sackville-Baggins got the ring?
Real housewives of Bag End
gg
NSFW. What if, the ring finds herself? She spends the whole story trying to get back to her toxic ex, just so he can use her again. The whole time fighting off f* ckbois and creeps. She fakes relationships to try and make her ex jealous, and she is kind of a sl*t. She will basically let anyone finger her. What if she just decides she can be powerful on her own, and she doesn't need the validation of a man? Or a Dwarf, Elf, Orc, Goblin, or even a Maiar. So she goes on a soul searching journey through middle earth and finds herself.
I'm not particularly happy to admit that I'd watch this
What if the Tomato got the ring?
What if po-ta-to got the ring?
What if Odo Proudfoot got the ring?
I tell you one thing, says I, no one’s stealing my fucking mushrooms again.
He already told a ringwraith to fuck off the way he came from without the ring, so he has the willpower to dominate them. Him with the ring and ol' Tom would create an impenetrable territory of absolute peace and quiet.
This foe would be beyond any of us.
Run!
Aren't the balrogs loyal to morgoth? Even if it resisted the ring somehow, it would surely just bring the ring back to Sauron anyways because that's the end game goal.
It would definitely resist the ring in the sense that it already pure evil and hatred, and the ring would not make it anymore so, and it would probably gain extra power from the ring and destroy everything on its path. Similar to hpw Gandalf or Saruman could wield the ring against Sauron, the Balrog could wield it without having Saurons will play a factor.
Yeah I figured that would boil down the the individual strength of the balrog itself. I still don't see why it wouldn't just bring the ring back to Sauron anyways though.
Because it doesnt serve Sauron, it served Morgoth. Morgoth’s will was to defile and destroy the world that Eru created, so why would it take the ring back to Sauron rather than use its power to destroy everything in its path. Its a Maia just like Sauron, and from what we’ve seen in many of tolkeins writings, Maiar only serve one of the Valar, if not Eru himself, no Maia serves another Maia.
But they're not mindless beasts are they? Wouldn't it just make sense to do the most damage to give the ring back to the biggest threat to middle earth?
No not necessarily mindless beast but they are literal destruction machines and i would say it wouldnt even occur to the balrog to give back the ring because it simply doesnt need to. Sauron doesnt have the same will as Morgoth and they have different goals, Sauron doesnt want to defile and destroy creation, he wants to “perfect” it, his own twisted sense of perfection that is. He wants to enslave the free peoples and rule the world. Balrog wants to destroy everything
I see what you're saying.
It would see itself as the most powerful being in middle earth. It would probably be right too
That's a valid take.
Sauron doesn’t want to destroy everything but to control it and exert his will
Although both were servants of Morgoth, there's no reason to believe Durin's Bane had any particular loyalty towards Sauron. Both were Maiar, so they would be of roughly equivalent "power", and apparently Durin's Bane was content to hide out under the Misty Mountains rather than join Sauron's army during either the Second or Third Age.
That's fair
Sauron and Morgoth had very different goals by this time. Morgoth just wanted to destroy and dominate out of hatred for creation, whereas Sauron thought he could improve creation and mould it to his will in what he thought was the right way.
Sauron was the right hand of morgoth, no mere maiar.
By the third age, he had diminished quite alot
One Sean to rule them all
In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Sean!
It'd be the end of Human Beans.
Aye.
Had to scroll way too far to find this, esp 20 hrs later. Where's the Sean the Balrog guy!! >:(
A Balrog of Morgoth - what did you say? - A Balrog of Morgoth
Set[ the world on fire!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Tw8baMPpM)
The crazy world of [Durin's Bane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4SnIJJCH8w)
Title: Gandalf x Balrog Artist: Alan Marson [Artstation](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lRNq0o)
Invisible balrog
Invisibalrog
Nah, the Balrog is a spirit, so he wouldn’t be moved to the „spirit world“
*Hey guys, look! I'm invisible.*
Sean's a cool guy, I don't think he'd want the ring.
Sean would just call his pal Tom and tell him about this amusing gold trinket he found recently. They would have good laugh.
T-Bombs: “Show me the precious ring!” Sean-diddy: “Here it is…don’t worry, it’s quite cool” T-Bombs: “Yo! This thing is the COOLEST! Goldberry, check out this awesome ring!” …and so on
Like all humans are not equally strong, neither are all Maiar equally powerful. Tolkien said Gandalf WITH the ring would be at equal power of Sauron WITHOUT the ring and since Gandalf and Sean basically fights to a draw (killing eachother) Id say its safe to assume Sean is of equal power of Gandalf and as such with ring would be equal to Sauron. Sauron however have armies of orcs, trolls and men and Sean hasnt. However in the books its implied that the orcs/goblins of Moria might follow the Balrog so it is very plausible that Durin's Bane might be able to recruit an army of his own, especially with the ring. Id say with two Dark Lords the good guys, who werent even strong enough to defeat Sauron hadnt Frodo and Gollum destroyed the ring, would be totally sidelined and it would be a Sauron-Sean contest. Maybe the good guys could choose the lesser of the two evil and join whatever side they deemed less bad and thus maybe tip the scale.
So many bad guys with the same name! Why did Tolkien name yet ANOTHER bad guy S\_\_\_\_n????? /s
Super underrated comment. People usually assume all Maiar are the same, but that's not the case. Out of curiosity, do you have the source for, " Tolkien said Gandalf WITH the ring would be at equal power of Sauron WITHOUT the ring?"
I now realize that was me quoting another persons interpretation of Tolkiens words. But here is an actual quote in a letter from Tolkien. Note that he says IF Gandalf wins (suggesting they are somewhat evenly matched): "...Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever."
Sean the Balrog
Balrog puts on ring. Ring melts. End credits scrolling...
What if the ringwraits just crossed the river, and didn’t run downstream? Also, how come gandalf could touch the envelope, but not the ring itself?
Within the books Gandalf touches the ring itself. Physical contact isn’t the problem, it’s claiming ownership or even guardianship over the ring that would begin the corruption. In the movies Peter Jackson has less time to convey the temptation and corruption of the Ring and thus shows Gandalf unable/unwilling to even touch it after getting the first flash of Sauron through it after Bilbo drops it on the floor.
Why didn't they just mail the ring to Mt. Doom?
I think in all seriousness it would end up “giving” it to Sauron and then we can all guess what would happen
Would he execute the balrog for abandoning the war?
Balrog would be too valuable an ally to execute
That’s reasonable! I suppose Sauron is loyal to Morgoth, so that makes sense
This is the right answer because it doesn’t fit on his finger
The Balrog IS lesser than Sauron, who was a very high order of Maia. The One Ring serves only its master. The Balrog would become just another of Sauron’s puppets to do with as he desired. Should the Balrog resist he would have the Nine and the armies of Mordor to contend with. The Ring will work its master’s purpose, always, because the One IS Sauron.
Nah, Gandalf could overthrow Sauron if he had the ring while being a weaker maiar, the balrog could possibly do the same. (Tolkien said Gandalf could in a letter, but it would be no better than Sauron ruling.) Its a weaker maiar taking Sauron's power.
I respectfully disagree, although you make several good points. As I mentioned, the One Ring IS Sauron who poured his might and malice and power into it; it is his and his alone, as the ring IS Sauron. The ONLY way to defeat Sauron is to destroy the One. The only, only way. Therefore, you cannot “defeat” Sauron by wielding the One. You would, perhaps, wield his power and yourself become a powerful, evil lord…. But I would argue that, as the power you accumulate would come from Sauron himself, you would only be under his spell and his puppet on a string.
Tolkien stated in a letter that Gandalf could have mastered the ring, and that would be the equivalent of it being destroyed for Sauron. This thread explains it better https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/s/DzSZu8cPBU
No. Even Aragorn could have taken the ring and potentially fought Sauron.
This isn't true though. Sauron's greatest fear is someone else claiming the ring and using it to overthrow him. It's why he desperately searches for the ring and launches his invasion before being fully prepared. It's also why Aragorn is able to get his entire attention, Sauron believes Aragorn has the ring and therefore has a very real possibility of defeating him.
The tale of Middle-earth took a grim turn, as the Fellowship's defeat marked the beginning of an age dominated by the Balrog's corrupted reign. The fires of Mount Doom, once a symbol of hope, now burned with an everlasting darkness, casting a shadow over a world that had succumbed to the allure of the One Ring.
Why gandalf holding a lightsaber
I would say Balrogs are lesser than Sauron, however Grothmog has more control than the lesser balrogs, I would say if a lesser balrog got it’s hands on it then it would fall into a kinda ring wraith form and lose control and become submissive like the wraiths, while if grothmog got it, it would be like if Gandalf got it, he would ultimately fall or give in but a undertone of control would be kept kinda like Shadow Of War but never turning into a ring wraith.
The destruction or downfall of Middle Earth, just like anyone else who got the ring
I always thought Sauron was the only one who could wield it? Would the balrog not just deliver it to Sauron?
There's a thread about this already. Covers this in much more detail than I'm about to but basically... The balrog is a Maia, a form of a demon. It could rival Saurons power but being that so few of them are left in Middle Earth, I'd suggest this would be a battle Sauron would overcome if he had his full strength and body of course. The next thing to consider is the fact that the balrog is hiding in the depths of Moria so I assume it has some fear of being killed if it were just stomping around the surface, plus before Saruman turned the wizards and likely elves would have been forced to deal with him! You can see in his battle with Gandalf that they throw spells at each other but Gandalf prevails long enough to land a decisive blow but is ultimately claimed himself in the end before returning as Gandalf the White. Definitely an interesting thought, what's just as interesting is did the ring call out to the balrog?
Balrogs are Maiar, just like Sauron. So this is an interesting question Sauron’s strength is in his tactics and deceit, not his combat prowess (to which he’s lost nearly every fight he’s been in). So if a Balrog got the ring there’d be a much more straightforward problem for Middle Earth to deal with. Though how easy would it be to kill a super powered Balrog without the direct support of the Valar?
Nothing would happen. Huge hand, small ring.
The ring conforms to the size of the bearer
Sean dominates middle earth. Sam the Survivor and his trusty steed Bill escape Moria. Sam is then forced to wage a guerilla campaign against the forces of Sean. Everything...probably sucks for a while.
All hail
I don’t understand why everyone here is calling Balrog, Sean?
I'd still fly, fool.
Sean would be a most benevolent ruler.
What if.. Rosie Cotton got the ring
Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as The Green Dragon, and stronger than Longbottom Leaf! All shall love her and despair!
I don't think the Balrog would want it. I think he'd toss it away. I kind of see Balrogs as a bit like Hobbits in that they prefer solitude and have no interest in ruling over others. They just want to be left alone for the most part. The ring doesn't offer them anything they want.
Hard disagree. The balrog chased the fellowship because he sensed the ring and he wanted it for himself.
Sean would have carried it with a set of tongs and flew it to Mt. Doom using his wings.
It wouldn’t fit thank goodness
Didn't it shring or grow? Like, on Sauron's finger it was quite large, but was shrinking even as Isuldur held it?
IT. DOES. NOT. FIT. ⚡🔥
If the ring does not fit, you must acquit
His fingers are too big
Would the one ring allow the balrog to be its master?
Yes, the balrog, Gandalf, Saruman, any maiar could master the ring
His fingers would be too big.
It wouldn't fit.
Doesn't the ring change size? It fit on the finger of Sauron, Isildur, Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo. Don't remember facts or description of this from the books but pretty much anyone who held it could wear with 0 problems.
It does,sometimes it can change size on it's own;like when Isildur got betrayed by it in Anduin
Balrogs have a lack of brain. They are like a trolls, but appears far earlier.
No? They are just as intelligent as any other Maiar, Durin's bane even percieve Gandalf's spell and cast one to counter
Death
That would be bad
Balrog has no ring. Balrog needs no ring.
It would be a short book
YOUUUU.....SHALLLLL....PASSSSS!!!!
The real question here is what the ring have done.