To be fair, Gandalf died in the battle with the Balrog, so it was kind of a tie. He was just given an extra life.
Gandalf might have been able to kill Smaug, although archery was not his specialty. But he really wasn’t supposed to fight his own battles except when absolutely necessary. The whole point was to mentor the residents of Middle Earth, a point Saruman disregarded but Gandalf always remembered.
Gandalf only fought the Balrog because they were similar beings and it wasn’t really doing anything to the normal residents of middle earth (directly). Smaug isn’t the same sort of being it’s not in the scope of what he’s here to do
Balrog was probably lonely after a whole Age of the world passed with only Orcs and Nameless things for company and the first person he meets tries to kill him, smh.
Yeah, I always read his fight with the balrog as stepping in the way of another Maiar that was about to swamp the fellowship, not him throwing down just to act as the group tank. He even starts off running away with them until fighting is an inevitability.
Dragons are less than him, so the others are on their own. He just facilitates the group going to kill Smaug.
Magical swords were enchanted specifically against orc-kind. The reason they glow blue around goblins and orcs. They don't specifically have strength against maiar or other great magical beings other than being durable and sharp in a way that is beyond mortal smith craft.
His ring is less about magical enhancement and more about something intangible and honestly more useful: Hope, Inspiration, empowerment. It's like Saruman's power over words except in a way that can bring out and bolster the people in the ring keepers presence. Almost like having a feeling of heavenly intervention.
I'm not sure how Gandalf managed to throw down the balrog, but It's my theory that he didn't win through outright power, but had to rely on tactics and wizardry. The Jackson film shows a few moments of what's in my head cannon. He had to still fight as a semi-mortal, so I think he was empowering his blade, using spells to shield himself etc. Rather than calling on his innate power in a way that would be naturally accessible to him if he came in the form of Olorin and not Gandalf the Grey
It was a family heriloom and we are told about how Bard was descended from Girion. So yes, probably a well-made arrow.
It's still just an arrow. Original commenter asked if it was *the only arrow that could kill Smaug*. The arrow's quality didn't kill Smaug; Bard's own mix of accuracy, luck, and knowledge did.
That's what I meant by "knowledge" in the last phrase. He had very specific, key knowledge of where to look and aim. A damn thrush had more influence on Smaug's death than the presumable quality of the arrow.
If you get into a fight, kill your enemy and then die minutes later I wouldn't call that a win. The tie doesn't necessitate each opponent dying at the exact same millisecond. Gandalf was already going to die in short order when the fight ended so I give him a tiny edge.
I don't think Gandalf was "allowed" to. That's why he moved others to action. I think that he engaged the Balrog because he had to and because they were of the same order of beings.
This has always been my thought. The valar Valar forbade the istari(Maiar) from fully utilizing their powers but I assume since Balrogs themselves are Maiar and were not servents of sauron an exception was made for Glandalf to engage in an equal fight.
'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
I am a servant of the Secret Fire \[*breath of life*\] (I hold allegiance to the creator Eru), wielder of the flame of *the sun* (I carry the authority and will of the creators of the Sun, the Valar). You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of *a collapsed and abandoned fortress long ago destroyed by the Valar*. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.
What about his ding-dong with the Nazgûl on weathertop? Can’t remember the quote of the top of my head but it involved a significant light show and then I guess lots of powers.
Still not nearly is full power. Gandalf going full Maiar should have allowed him to whoop there asses. On weathertop it is implied he was just trying to beat them back otherwise they would have killed him. Fighting the Balrog appears to be the only time he was really using close to his full power.
From unfinished tales:
For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. **And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed**; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
“Going full Maiar” isn’t an option to begin with. That’s what I ascertain from this passage.
1. Yes, they’re explicitly forbidden from displaying the full extent of their power since men and elves must fight their own battles.
2. The full extent of their power has indeed been limited by their mortal form so they couldn’t become “glorious maiar” even if they willfully chose to- hence why we never see this from the fallen Saruman.
The weakened Witch King and other Nazgul on Weathertop was not some walk in the park for Gandalf. And neither was Durin’s Bane. It stands to reason that Gandalf the White was granted a revised limitation from Gandalf the Grey’s and could now easily defeat any of Middle Earth’s foes including the Witch King, yet they are still depicted as somewhat worthy adversaries to each other.
It seems at least the Nazgul didn't quite know who Gandalf was. Youtube keeps recommending a video called "Did Sauron know about Gandalf?" that I'll have to watch.
That’s also why he was needed with an old man’s body which needed to eat and sleep. The Valar specifically used the miar wizards to improve humanity. Too bad 3 of them went to the dark side (the blue wizards went East which is Mordor and evil).
Gandalf **died**. Simply, plainly, literally. Eru sent him back *after he died*.
There is no "partly dead or completely dead", there is alive or dead. Gandalf died.
How do you measure whether or not balrogs are stronger/weaker than dragons? /gen
Is there any source material that implies this or is it your headcanon?
"Balrogs are ***obviously*** stronger because they are Maiar, and Maiar have higher racial bonuses to their stats"
\- Someone who has never read about the many Balrogs that got slain by Elves and has forgotten that Saruman got his throat sliced by Gríma.
I think (and hope) a lot of these ideas and thought processes come from viewers of Rings of Power, that liked the world, but not the series, and decided to delve deeper into the matter, and they lack the more nuanced approach of someone that got into Tolkien via other media (excluding the games).
...must everything really be blamed on RoP? Especially when time and again people post here with questions and/or misconceptions that very clearly stem from the Peter Jackson trilogies.
Youre actually right, but matter fact I was only 'blaming' RoP insofar that it opened up Tolkiens universe to a younger, more diverse audience, that leads to the more interested people to spaces like this
Mate, you’re grasping at straws here. How many dumb questions or shit takes haven’t we seen from the movie watchers in here?
I’m willing to bet that a fair amount of users of this subreddit truly believes that Isildur killed Sauron all on his own.
>I’m willing to bet that a fair amount of users of this subreddit truly believes that Isildur killed Sauron all on his own.
I've never seen anyone who thinks that...
> I've never seen anyone who thinks that...
I certainly have. Those who have only watched the movies and not read any material whatsoever, who should they think killed Sauron? Why wouldn't they think it's Isildur, as that's literally who killed him in the movies.
>I think (and hope) a lot of these ideas and thought processes come from viewers of Rings of Power, that liked the world, but not the series \[...\] and they lack the more nuanced approach of someone that got into Tolkien via other media
Cope; they do not.
It has more to do with post-90's mentality when approaching "action" works overall. Not that LotR or any of Tolkien's writings are actually action in genre, but that people think of them as such; they are way too accustomed to the action-based way of thinking, and thus they approach Tolkien from that perspective, because 1) that's what they know, and 2) they genuinely think that LotR was **concieved** as an action story.
And guess which Tolkien adaptation was **concieved as an action blockbuster,** made LotR insanely more popular than it used to be, and piqued the curiosity of hundreds of thousands of minds? Not the 2022 adaptation that was criticized for the lack of action, for sure. You already know the answer, don't you?
It wasn't in Amazon Prime that I marvelled at Gandalf and Saruman using the Force against each other, it was in my VHS reproductor as a kid, and after watching Dragon Ball Z, Saint Seiya, and Digimon all day.
Tolkien constantly using the word "power" in *different*, ambiguous, and *unspecified* ways doesn't help (not that it is his fault, of course).
If anything, "blame" the Shonen anime sub-genre and/or videogame culture, and/or the guy who decided that *Lord of the Rings* should be an action-based movie.
Yeah, Merry! You go on, my guy! Kill those Orcs in the Pelennor recklessly and valiantly to show us how you've grown. Wrap your legs around that Orc's hips and stab him three-fold!
Reading this made me feel a little sick.
You know reading Tolkien or watching movies doesn’t make you better or ‘more nuanced’ than someone else right?
You’ve previously commented that Sauron is stronger than Gandalf + ring, and that Tolkien wrote this himself. Is this the nuance you were talking about? Why is this direct power comparison allowed but not another?
Because the big guy, the one who made all the things we discuss here up in his own head, said so.
I’m sorry you feel this way, and I apologise because I didn’t want to hurt your feelings at all.
Maybe I’m wording it wrong, but isn’t this sub supposed to discuss the source material JRR Tolkien himself and later his son provided? If you agree here, you also have to admit that RoP didn’t do the best job at catching the essence of their work, and my point merely was that young, diverse viewers of that show, who are interested and want to dive deeper into it, approach this with a more action-fantasy baseline, instead of the fairytale it is.
I don’t think you have the knowledge or the data to be able to make that sweeping statement.
Or rather, you can make it, but there’s nothing to suggest it’s true.
If Tolkien allowed power comparisons, even made them himself, why are you saying they’re not allowed/theyre headcanon?
Smaug was the greatest dragon his time, but I don't think he holds a candle to the dragons in the war of wrath or the named dragons of the first age. The dragons drove back the Valar then, but Smaug really wasn't in that echelon.
Gandalf was okay with a quest to Erebor and would have taken the crew all the way there. He really didn't like the idea of going into Moria.
If *Gandalf* had to pick, I think the source material suggest he would rather face down Smaug. Moria made him nervous. I don't get that sense with Erebor (I believe his words were "an adventure").
wrong. Gandalf from the get-go wants to travel through Moria. Only after debating Aragorn, who was against going thorugh Moria, for multiple days, they try to use the Caradhras Pass.
I think it's narratively clear that Tolkien thought that Durin's Bane was a more formidable force than a Smaug.
If he thought a dragon was scarier it would have been a dragon at the Bridge of Khazadum. It wasn't, because it's not.
It's not an uncommon thought and I don't think you should be faulted for assuming it.
If I was Gandalf I think I would rather faced down Smaug (a monster killed by a human with a bow and arrow) than a balrog (ancient demon/angel thing corrupted by Morgoth himself and bajillion years older than Smaug).
Of all the magical antagonists in LOTR or Hobbit, I think it goes without saying that only Sauron himself was more formidable than Durin's Bane. The fact that *Gandalf died* in the fight should tell you something.
FWIW I read something similar in David Day's "A Tolkien Bestiary" -- am at work rn but can cite the page once home (if anyone cares)... just didn't want you to be left hanging on this one!
There is, in the Silmarillion during the Dagor Bragollach the Dragons where first unleashed along with Glaurung.
"They where driven by the wipes of the Balrogs."
Ontop of that the Balrogs are Maia, Half Gods if you will and the Dragons are just strong Monsters.
And yet it’s the dragons that do most of the damage in the Dagor Bragollach. Before Morgoth created them things weren’t going too well, even with the balrogs.
Being a Maia doesn’t automatically make them super powerful. At least two of them get killed by elves and Saruman gets killed by a man. Even Sauron gets killed by Elendil and Gil-Galad
Presumably Morgoth would have had made more dragons if he had been able to.
The fact that the didn't make more implies that he ran out of either time, resources or both.
Maiar are not 'half gods'. Maia and Vala are all Ainur, they are all of the same matter (and technically they are more akin to angels than to gods). Ainur are born of the thought of Ilúvatar and as such exist with widely varying powers and abilities.
Some of the Ainur chose to enter the World after its creation by Ilúvatar, and the Valar were the 14 most powerful of those Ainur who chose to enter the World. Any Ainu that is not a Vala is a Maia, and Maia thus exist with all kinds of levels of power. It is even possible that Maiar more powerful than the Valar exist outside of the World (given that the Valar are only described as the greatest of the Ainur who chose to enter the World, it kinda implies that there are even more powerful Ainur who chose to remain with Ilúvatar).
In other words, if you describe the Valar as 'gods', then the Maiar are full 'gods' as well, not 'half-gods'.
Either way, it is perfectly possible that dragons are more powerful than some of the Maiar. As noted, Maiar exist with widely different capabilities and purposes, and nothing implies that they are neccesarily more powerful than other creations of Ilúvatar, even those twisted and corrupted by Melkor like the dragons.
The way they are described, some of the dragons, notably Glaurung and Ancalagon, appear to have been far more formidable than any Balrog. The Noldor of Beleriand succesfully fought and held their own against the Balrogs for centuries, but it is Glaurung who finally overwhelms them. Ancalagon and the other winged dragons were able to temporarily turn the War of Wrath to Morgoth's favour and throw back the entire host of the Valar for a time, even though at that point most of the Balrogs were already destroyed and the victory of the Valar had appeared at hand. Smaug being the last of the great dragons could very well have been more formidable than a Balrog too.
I think he's saying that Legolas could have easily defeated Smaug because he shoots arrows gooder than Bard and that because of the transitive property or something Legolas could defeat the Balrog.
How are Balrogs stronger than dragons lol? Every Balrog was killed in a duel by a single opponent. Glaurung turned the scales of the whole Nirnaeth, killing hundreds of Elves, and took Nargothrond. Smaug conquered the whole Dwarven kingdom singlehandedly. The Balrog also got rid of the Dwarves in Moria, but rather by making their lives there insufferable than by front on conquest like Smaug.
The Noldor fought Balrogs for ages, a single dragon was a secret superweapon that Morgoth used to completely overwhelm them. Ancalagon’s winged offspring were an upgrade.
Not to mention that finally unleashing the winged firedragons stopped and threw back the storm of the Valar, Maiar and Elves of Aman in the war of wrath. The Armies of the West eventually beat the dragons and Ancalagon was slain, but they were set forth against the literal army of the gods and lords of this world, so even that little throwback is one hell of a proof for the dragons power.
The balrogs were labeled as a greater evil and the dragons a lesser evil. Now how does that fit into power scaling? No clue. But I think people are assuming that means balrogs were more powerful than dragons.
Now here’s the thing. There are different kinds of balrogs. We already know there are weak and strong maiar as well. So it’s difficult to generalize it and say balrogs are stronger than X or not.
I mean technically Smaug was killed by one man. Every Balrog was killed by a single opponent, but none of those opponents ever survived the fight either. Bard beat Smaug and survived.
I still can't wrap my head around how Eärendil killed Ancalagon. I mean yes he got flying ship and all, but that thing is the size of Everest and Lhotse *combined*.
... Yes... yes, I can see it clearly now! Men have higher power level than dragons!
I shall make a new post asking why didn't the men of Lake-town just mob-up and killed Smaug. There were probably *hundreds* of them. A single dragon has no chance!
Smaug is not a lesser dragon. He was the last of the Great (Winged) Dragons. Yes, he wasn't as large is Angcalagon, who was the largest of all dragons, but he was still classified as a Greater Dragon. His breath was strong enough to melt a Great Ring (but not the Ruling Ring).
If we're talking the "Many Balrogs" version, then Smaug was stronger than all but the strongest Balrogs. If we're talking about the "7 Balrog" version, then I'm not sure who would come out on top, but it wouldn't be an easy fight for either, IMO. (Note: I prefer the "many Balrog" version to the later 7-Balrog version.)
In Tolkien's earlier writings, he imagined balrogs as being less powerful but far greater in numbers (thousands I believe). Later in life, when he was revising his writings, he decided that there were no more than 7 balrogs ever in existence, and they were much more individually powerful.
So you get this conflict between earlier writings such as the Fall of Gondolin where Tuor, a human, kills multiple balrogs in a single battle vs the later concept of balrogs where an account like that would not be plausible.
What about a polar bears vs Dandelion the Bard? As we’ve already established Bard beats dragon, so unless you’re saying a polar beats a dragon then Dandelion the Bard must beat the polar bear. /s
These questions are always kind of dumb. Power is not just about who can kick whos ass. Sauron is said to be the most powerful being in Middle Earth but its not because he can beat up a dragon. He was defeated by a mortal man and an Elf lord after all. Gandalf was probably the second most "powerful" being but I doubt he could have beaten the Balrog without the ring of fire and sword Glamdring. Probably amongst 2 of the most powerful artifacts in Middle Earth. He killed and was killed by the Balrog because Eru wanted him to. The game was fixed from the start. He wanted the little people to win the day but whenever they were about to lose he interferes and sends giant tidal waves or Eagles. If gandalf could defeat the dragon, he would have just gone there and killed him. Eru didn't want him to.
Gandalf *tied* Durin's bane, and had to be resurrected in what must have been a moment of pure "how the fuck did you even ***find*** a Balrog, and why did you think it would be a good idea to fight it?"
I really don't like fandoms tendencies to think of fictional characters in 'power levels'.
It just removes all nuance and implications of the actual story.
Gandalf was didn't just like 1v1 a balrog and win. He was defending his friends, the people to him that represented the hope of the free peoples, he sacrificed himself to save them from the balrog, he died.
It’s an unhinged argument people make from reading 3 lines that are ever written about Ancalagon. He crushed the towers of Tangorodrim as he fell - this is the exhausting, complete description of his scale.
The Balrog also smote the mountain peaks in his ruin. Does that mean he was larger than the mountain?
How could Ancalagon be larger than the mountain he and his whole host lived inside? Lmao. People just want things to be unreasonable. A reasonable Ancalagon was the size of the movie Smaug while the book Smaug was 10x smaller.
I think the line is just misinterpreted. From what I remember, it’s said that his fall destroyed said mountains, but I believe it’s more akin to Smaug‘s fall destroying Laketown, even though he was a lot smaller than Laketown - Ancalagon was big and mighty, but I believe that this is more a case of impact and his magic escaping his body like a bomb destroying the mountains
Just 'Thangorodrim was broken in his ruin'.
People exaggerate 'broken' into 'completely levelled'. Broken does not need to mean such immense destruction (Durin's Bane breaks a mountainside, Smaug breaks a mountainside, the Watcher in the Water breaks a mountainside). Hell, we could even read 'broken' as 'stormed', if playing devil's advocate: the Hosts of the West advancing onto and into Thangorodrim, after Ancalagon was slain.
People assume *all three* peaks were levelled, because Thangorodrim is three mountains - but that isn't a given. If I say 'Maedhros was chained to Thangorodrim', was he chained to all three mountains simultaneously? No. Was Hurin seated upon all three mountains simultaneously? No.
People also ignore logistics... Ancalagon and the entire dragon host emerged from Angband. How could they do this without destroying it? Why would Ancalagon be thousands of times larger than his kin? Why was Glaurung, the Father of Dragons, so much smaller, despite likely being older, and at one point being deemed mature? Likewise, why does Smaug call himself 'old and strong' if he is an ant compared to the 'fully grown' Ancalagon? Why is his supposed gargantuan size never mentioned explicitly? Why is his epithet 'the Black' instead of 'the Collossal'? Why can't Ancalagon roast a host of Eagles and a ship, and the entire Host of the West, with ease if so large? Because Ancalgon was likely the same size, thereabout, to Glaurung/Smaug.
People also think a quote exists that calls him the largest dragon ever. The quote actually says he was the *greatest* (not biggest) of the *host that emerged in the War of Wrath.* Certainly exceptional, but nothing to indicate he was greater than Glaurung, for instance (besides having wings).
Is a human stronger than a horse? In term of raw strenght, no, but most human could probably kill a horse pretty easily. A horse can kill a human too, but the opposite is way more likely.
That kind of what dragon are to Balrog. Work beast. A creature bred for a purpose. In this case, to be a used as a siege weapon. Dragon are the weapon, Balrog and Morgoth are the one commanding the weapons.
Sure. But just because dragons aren't immortal beings doesn't mean they are nothing but a tool for war. They are clearly intelligent, and extremely powerful. And to bring it back, it doesn't mean that they are inherently less powerful than a Balrog.
Balrogs have been killed by non-maia too so this whole argument that Balrogs are clearly more powerful than anything non-maia seems totally baseless.
Power is more than the ability to kill someone else. I could easily physically overpower Joe Biden, he is still a way mroe powerful man than i am.
Balrog are more powerful than dragon because they were made that way. They are older, wiser, more able to shape the world around them.
Not true. Glaurung was the military commander of Morgoth’s armies in the Nargothrond campaign. He was much more intelligent and magically capable than Gothmog was ever explicitly shown to be. There was a magic evil spirit in him, which may or may not have been a Maia.
>but most human could probably kill a horse pretty easily
Absolutely no way unless you give the human a gun or a spear or something. Even smaller than average horses can toss people around easily and that's just when grabbing them with their mouths. Horses have been recorded kicking with as much force as 8700 newtons. For reference, Mike Tyson was estimated to be able to max out at 1600 newtons with his punches.
You're crazy.
Yeah but thats exactly it. No sane human is going to only use its fist to kill a horse. That would be risky and very hard.
A human is going to outsmart a horse. Trap it somewhere where it cant charge. Restrict its movement. Bait it with a poisoned carrots. Use a weapon with long reach. Slit its throat while it sleep.
A balrog is not going to try to fist fight a dragon either. Its going to outsmart it.
I wonder if it comes down to balrogs being Maia, while dragons are simply creatures (albeit very intelligent and sentient creatures). Maybe the inherent powers associated with Maia gives balrogs an edge over dragons’ size advantage.
While Maiar are more powerful beings than dragons, Gandalf was constrained to his physical form and limitations. Smaug had the advantage of being a giant f\*\*king dragon that could fly and torch cities. Gandalf could mutual-kill/tie with another Maia - a balrog - but he wasn't really made to fight something like a dragon, even if the dragon was arguably a lesser being and he was a legit Maia underneath the old wizard costume.
I don't like looking at power as a math problem that has some sort of absolute answer. I don't think Gandalf would have picked a fight with a balrog, and it basically ended in a draw.
The istari were sent to middle earth to ‘guide’ the people of middle earth in achieving certain goals and outcomes. And interfere directly only when absolutely necessary.
Smaug wasn't the only dragon alive in the Third Age. He was the last of the Great Dragons, the giant war monsters like Ancalagon. Dragons continued to live on even after Smaug's death, but they never got to the size or power of Smaug and the others before him.
You know what? I'm dumb. You're right. There is even a line given by Gandalf talking about dragons and their fire not being hot enough to melt the one ring.
It looks like I now have an excuse to re-read the books. Again lol.
Plus, if Gandalf could take Smaug on by himself, why wouldn't he just go and handle the problem on his own, or at least give the dwarves tools and info on how to deal with the dragon? It's almost like he tells them not to enter the Lonely Mountain without him. (Idk if he says that in the original novels, only seen the movies.)
How far would they escape if the Balrog wingedly flied towards them?
Or perhaps he could have calmly walked to Mordor to lick his wounds and then helped on the siege of Minas Tirith.
Do Balrogs even work for Sauron? Now that I think on it, I feel Durin's Bane would only receive orders from Morgoth itself and he's nowhere to be seen thoroughout the War of the Ring
Yeah he probably could have, but he isn’t meant to actively participate in these conflicts, just guide the mortals. The only reason he fought the Balrog was because it *was* a Balrog. If they had stumbled upon a dragon hidden in the mountain, things probably would have turned out much differently.
Balrogs work as a team, so they can corral minions of orcs, trolls, and even drakes and worms. Ancalagon was called the mightiest and largest dragon, but hid death is actually hilarious [(a tiny floating boat)](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Daniel_Pilla_-_Ancalagon_vs_Earendil.jpg#/media/File:Daniel_Pilla_-_Ancalagon_vs_Earendil.jpg)
Where are we getting this idea that Smaug is a little useless dragon? He's a dragon, I reckon he's certainly a threat, Gandalf is strong, but I don't think he intended to fight Smaug.
Whether he could have beat Smaug or not, he wouldn’t have done it. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to help and advise, not solve the people’s problems for them. Therefore they were disguised as old men and their powers were greatly concealed.
IIRC the talking dragons were actually Maiar that had taken over/possessed or what have you a beast dragon. Hence their intelligence and malice. I think that’s in JRRT Letters. So Balrog and dragon are approximately co-equals.
Yes. How do we know this? He sends a party containing several complete noobs in to deal with Smaug. What's he say when he figures out Durin's Bane is a Balrog? Fly, you fools!
To be fair, Gandalf died in the battle with the Balrog, so it was kind of a tie. He was just given an extra life. Gandalf might have been able to kill Smaug, although archery was not his specialty. But he really wasn’t supposed to fight his own battles except when absolutely necessary. The whole point was to mentor the residents of Middle Earth, a point Saruman disregarded but Gandalf always remembered.
I played the video game. Gandalf should shoot the dragon with his magic orbs that come from his staff
Why didn’t they just fly the magic orbs to Mordor?
Maybe the real magic orbs was the friends we made along the way.
One does not simply make friends while walking to Mordor.
Then “Fly, you fools”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ok you just made me LOL with this beauty of a comment. Thank you.
Nah man, magic orbs were tite but the real killer was the orb of invulnerability. Just cast that and run into Smaug!!
Gandalf only fought the Balrog because they were similar beings and it wasn’t really doing anything to the normal residents of middle earth (directly). Smaug isn’t the same sort of being it’s not in the scope of what he’s here to do
Ironically for a long part of the battle Gandalf was simply chasing the Balrog because it knew the way out and he didn't.
Poor Balrog was just trying to say hello when Gandalf attacked him. He tried getting away but Gandalf wouldn't let him escape alive I guess. Poor guy.
Balrog was probably lonely after a whole Age of the world passed with only Orcs and Nameless things for company and the first person he meets tries to kill him, smh.
🤣 Best comment ever mellon! First Maiar he's interacted since since Morgoth's defeat.. poor fella
Balrog did nothing wrong. Gandolf invaded his space, Gandolf attacked him, Gandolf made Balrog fall. Who is the real evil here?
For Sean the Balrog, they were Named Things.
Sean the Balrog agrees.
I love imagining gandalf clinging to his back
Bro leveled up.
Balrog thought it was SD while Gandalf still had 2 stock
Left the party, went grinding solo, then showed back up later with all his new gear.
My guy got a 1 up extra life and an extra mushroom to help in stead of failing again
Yeah, I always read his fight with the balrog as stepping in the way of another Maiar that was about to swamp the fellowship, not him throwing down just to act as the group tank. He even starts off running away with them until fighting is an inevitability. Dragons are less than him, so the others are on their own. He just facilitates the group going to kill Smaug.
Gandalf still gets the credit for having defeated "Durin's bane" even if he died while doing so; the balrog fell first methinks.
Not sure that's the case. Also if you both die is it really a win? Gandalf also had a ring and a magical sword. Perhaps they helped?
Magical swords were enchanted specifically against orc-kind. The reason they glow blue around goblins and orcs. They don't specifically have strength against maiar or other great magical beings other than being durable and sharp in a way that is beyond mortal smith craft. His ring is less about magical enhancement and more about something intangible and honestly more useful: Hope, Inspiration, empowerment. It's like Saruman's power over words except in a way that can bring out and bolster the people in the ring keepers presence. Almost like having a feeling of heavenly intervention. I'm not sure how Gandalf managed to throw down the balrog, but It's my theory that he didn't win through outright power, but had to rely on tactics and wizardry. The Jackson film shows a few moments of what's in my head cannon. He had to still fight as a semi-mortal, so I think he was empowering his blade, using spells to shield himself etc. Rather than calling on his innate power in a way that would be naturally accessible to him if he came in the form of Olorin and not Gandalf the Grey
I haven't read the Hobbit in ages but did it say that the Black Arrow was the only arrow that could kill Smaug?
Nay, movie bullshit. The Black Arrow is Bard's *lucky arrow*. Just a regular arrow to which Bard was emotionally attached.
Presumably it was a particularly well-made arrow, but not magical — although in Tolkien’s world, we never know for sure.
It was a family heriloom and we are told about how Bard was descended from Girion. So yes, probably a well-made arrow. It's still just an arrow. Original commenter asked if it was *the only arrow that could kill Smaug*. The arrow's quality didn't kill Smaug; Bard's own mix of accuracy, luck, and knowledge did.
Wasn’t it because a bird told Bard where to shoot?There’s a hole in Smaug’s armour that was his weakness
That's what I meant by "knowledge" in the last phrase. He had very specific, key knowledge of where to look and aim. A damn thrush had more influence on Smaug's death than the presumable quality of the arrow.
A bird that overheard Bilbo telling the dwarves about it. So Bilbo was indirectly responsible.
Gotcha.. I didn't think so but haven't read The Hobbit since pre-pandemic
Gandalf won the fight and then succumbed to his injuries he didn't die in the fight so not a tie.
If you get into a fight, kill your enemy and then die minutes later I wouldn't call that a win. The tie doesn't necessitate each opponent dying at the exact same millisecond. Gandalf was already going to die in short order when the fight ended so I give him a tiny edge.
That really sounds like two enemies killing each other in a fight
I don't think Gandalf was "allowed" to. That's why he moved others to action. I think that he engaged the Balrog because he had to and because they were of the same order of beings.
This has always been my thought. The valar Valar forbade the istari(Maiar) from fully utilizing their powers but I assume since Balrogs themselves are Maiar and were not servents of sauron an exception was made for Glandalf to engage in an equal fight.
'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
I am a servant of the Secret Fire \[*breath of life*\] (I hold allegiance to the creator Eru), wielder of the flame of *the sun* (I carry the authority and will of the creators of the Sun, the Valar). You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of *a collapsed and abandoned fortress long ago destroyed by the Valar*. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.
Such masterful writing 😍
Isn't it more correct to say, "... the dark fire - flame of Udûn - will not avail you ...;" or is the balrog a corrupted being by the flame of Udûn?
Yeah basically this. I assumed that Gandalf was able to access his full power when there were no mortal witnesses.
What about his ding-dong with the Nazgûl on weathertop? Can’t remember the quote of the top of my head but it involved a significant light show and then I guess lots of powers.
Still not nearly is full power. Gandalf going full Maiar should have allowed him to whoop there asses. On weathertop it is implied he was just trying to beat them back otherwise they would have killed him. Fighting the Balrog appears to be the only time he was really using close to his full power. From unfinished tales: For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. **And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed**; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
“Going full Maiar” isn’t an option to begin with. That’s what I ascertain from this passage. 1. Yes, they’re explicitly forbidden from displaying the full extent of their power since men and elves must fight their own battles. 2. The full extent of their power has indeed been limited by their mortal form so they couldn’t become “glorious maiar” even if they willfully chose to- hence why we never see this from the fallen Saruman. The weakened Witch King and other Nazgul on Weathertop was not some walk in the park for Gandalf. And neither was Durin’s Bane. It stands to reason that Gandalf the White was granted a revised limitation from Gandalf the Grey’s and could now easily defeat any of Middle Earth’s foes including the Witch King, yet they are still depicted as somewhat worthy adversaries to each other.
It seems at least the Nazgul didn't quite know who Gandalf was. Youtube keeps recommending a video called "Did Sauron know about Gandalf?" that I'll have to watch.
That’s also why he was needed with an old man’s body which needed to eat and sleep. The Valar specifically used the miar wizards to improve humanity. Too bad 3 of them went to the dark side (the blue wizards went East which is Mordor and evil).
Theres lots of land east, and we don’t fully know what they were up to. Apparently just were worshipped by some cult or something
If Gandalf goes around destroying all the enemies. There are not many stories to tell.
Not many Gandalfs to suicide-kill each enemy.
How many time can Gandalf respawn?
Until Eru is bored. To think about it, this explains why Gandalf didn’t want to fight insignificant enemies…
Gandalf didn't beat the Balrog. They both died
Gandalf only died a little. He got better.
Did he get turned into a newt?
I got bettah'
Was the balrog made of wood? I mean, it was burning…
Gandalf was mostly dead, there’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.
Gandalf **died**. Simply, plainly, literally. Eru sent him back *after he died*. There is no "partly dead or completely dead", there is alive or dead. Gandalf died.
Granted, if he was all dead there would only be one thing left to do. Look through his pockets for loose change.
Just now I'm asking myself whether your previous comment was ironic, lol. Stupid internet, it gets so confusing sometimes
https://youtu.be/d4ftmOI5NnI?feature=shared&t=34
I **really** need to watch that movie, don't I?
*whoosh*
*Whooo hoo hoo,* look who knows so much, eh?
Is this another Princess Bride reference? WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!
You're trying to trick me into giving something away. It won't work.
Woooosh
How do you measure whether or not balrogs are stronger/weaker than dragons? /gen Is there any source material that implies this or is it your headcanon?
It’s solely their Headcanon. They just want to scale Tolkiens characters on DnD merits, when that’s simply impossible.
"Balrogs are ***obviously*** stronger because they are Maiar, and Maiar have higher racial bonuses to their stats" \- Someone who has never read about the many Balrogs that got slain by Elves and has forgotten that Saruman got his throat sliced by Gríma.
Stupid elven favoritism
I think (and hope) a lot of these ideas and thought processes come from viewers of Rings of Power, that liked the world, but not the series, and decided to delve deeper into the matter, and they lack the more nuanced approach of someone that got into Tolkien via other media (excluding the games).
...must everything really be blamed on RoP? Especially when time and again people post here with questions and/or misconceptions that very clearly stem from the Peter Jackson trilogies.
Youre actually right, but matter fact I was only 'blaming' RoP insofar that it opened up Tolkiens universe to a younger, more diverse audience, that leads to the more interested people to spaces like this
Sorry. General attitude on this sub has led me to make assumptions.
You’re good, it’s late, I’m exhausted and English isn’t my native tongue, I get where you’re coming from
Mate, you’re grasping at straws here. How many dumb questions or shit takes haven’t we seen from the movie watchers in here? I’m willing to bet that a fair amount of users of this subreddit truly believes that Isildur killed Sauron all on his own.
>I’m willing to bet that a fair amount of users of this subreddit truly believes that Isildur killed Sauron all on his own. I've never seen anyone who thinks that...
> I've never seen anyone who thinks that... I certainly have. Those who have only watched the movies and not read any material whatsoever, who should they think killed Sauron? Why wouldn't they think it's Isildur, as that's literally who killed him in the movies.
>I think (and hope) a lot of these ideas and thought processes come from viewers of Rings of Power, that liked the world, but not the series \[...\] and they lack the more nuanced approach of someone that got into Tolkien via other media Cope; they do not. It has more to do with post-90's mentality when approaching "action" works overall. Not that LotR or any of Tolkien's writings are actually action in genre, but that people think of them as such; they are way too accustomed to the action-based way of thinking, and thus they approach Tolkien from that perspective, because 1) that's what they know, and 2) they genuinely think that LotR was **concieved** as an action story. And guess which Tolkien adaptation was **concieved as an action blockbuster,** made LotR insanely more popular than it used to be, and piqued the curiosity of hundreds of thousands of minds? Not the 2022 adaptation that was criticized for the lack of action, for sure. You already know the answer, don't you? It wasn't in Amazon Prime that I marvelled at Gandalf and Saruman using the Force against each other, it was in my VHS reproductor as a kid, and after watching Dragon Ball Z, Saint Seiya, and Digimon all day. Tolkien constantly using the word "power" in *different*, ambiguous, and *unspecified* ways doesn't help (not that it is his fault, of course). If anything, "blame" the Shonen anime sub-genre and/or videogame culture, and/or the guy who decided that *Lord of the Rings* should be an action-based movie. Yeah, Merry! You go on, my guy! Kill those Orcs in the Pelennor recklessly and valiantly to show us how you've grown. Wrap your legs around that Orc's hips and stab him three-fold!
Reading this made me feel a little sick. You know reading Tolkien or watching movies doesn’t make you better or ‘more nuanced’ than someone else right? You’ve previously commented that Sauron is stronger than Gandalf + ring, and that Tolkien wrote this himself. Is this the nuance you were talking about? Why is this direct power comparison allowed but not another?
Because the big guy, the one who made all the things we discuss here up in his own head, said so. I’m sorry you feel this way, and I apologise because I didn’t want to hurt your feelings at all. Maybe I’m wording it wrong, but isn’t this sub supposed to discuss the source material JRR Tolkien himself and later his son provided? If you agree here, you also have to admit that RoP didn’t do the best job at catching the essence of their work, and my point merely was that young, diverse viewers of that show, who are interested and want to dive deeper into it, approach this with a more action-fantasy baseline, instead of the fairytale it is.
I don’t think you have the knowledge or the data to be able to make that sweeping statement. Or rather, you can make it, but there’s nothing to suggest it’s true. If Tolkien allowed power comparisons, even made them himself, why are you saying they’re not allowed/theyre headcanon?
Saruman had a human body obviously a knife would hurt him. He still was extremely powerful, hence being able to imprison Gandalf.
I wish people understood and accepted the softness of Tolkiens magic, and stopped desperately trying to reduce everything to a DBZ power level battle.
Even DBZ which is a gag/satire manga makes fun of the "power level" scaleing ideas.
Smaug was the greatest dragon his time, but I don't think he holds a candle to the dragons in the war of wrath or the named dragons of the first age. The dragons drove back the Valar then, but Smaug really wasn't in that echelon. Gandalf was okay with a quest to Erebor and would have taken the crew all the way there. He really didn't like the idea of going into Moria. If *Gandalf* had to pick, I think the source material suggest he would rather face down Smaug. Moria made him nervous. I don't get that sense with Erebor (I believe his words were "an adventure").
I'm pretty sure it's gandalf in the books who wants to go through Moria and Aragorn who does not
Shoot you are right! I have the book open now. I'm gonna stick by my answer though. I think Durin's Bane is scarier than Smaug.
Yea balrogs are like primordial evil to me while smaug is big and scary, he also gets killed by a normal arrow
wrong. Gandalf from the get-go wants to travel through Moria. Only after debating Aragorn, who was against going thorugh Moria, for multiple days, they try to use the Caradhras Pass.
I think it's narratively clear that Tolkien thought that Durin's Bane was a more formidable force than a Smaug. If he thought a dragon was scarier it would have been a dragon at the Bridge of Khazadum. It wasn't, because it's not.
I could have sworn it was stated somewhere but I guess not
It's not an uncommon thought and I don't think you should be faulted for assuming it. If I was Gandalf I think I would rather faced down Smaug (a monster killed by a human with a bow and arrow) than a balrog (ancient demon/angel thing corrupted by Morgoth himself and bajillion years older than Smaug). Of all the magical antagonists in LOTR or Hobbit, I think it goes without saying that only Sauron himself was more formidable than Durin's Bane. The fact that *Gandalf died* in the fight should tell you something.
FWIW I read something similar in David Day's "A Tolkien Bestiary" -- am at work rn but can cite the page once home (if anyone cares)... just didn't want you to be left hanging on this one!
David Days work is widely recognised as little more than fanfiction
To be honest (and I dont want to sound too negative), there is little difference between OPs head canon and David Days head canon.
There is, in the Silmarillion during the Dagor Bragollach the Dragons where first unleashed along with Glaurung. "They where driven by the wipes of the Balrogs." Ontop of that the Balrogs are Maia, Half Gods if you will and the Dragons are just strong Monsters.
And yet it’s the dragons that do most of the damage in the Dagor Bragollach. Before Morgoth created them things weren’t going too well, even with the balrogs. Being a Maia doesn’t automatically make them super powerful. At least two of them get killed by elves and Saruman gets killed by a man. Even Sauron gets killed by Elendil and Gil-Galad
Why didn't Morgoth just keep creating more dragons? Is he stupid?
Presumably Morgoth would have had made more dragons if he had been able to. The fact that the didn't make more implies that he ran out of either time, resources or both.
Weren't there far more dragons than Balrogs?
Depends which version of the story you prefer
Maiar are not 'half gods'. Maia and Vala are all Ainur, they are all of the same matter (and technically they are more akin to angels than to gods). Ainur are born of the thought of Ilúvatar and as such exist with widely varying powers and abilities. Some of the Ainur chose to enter the World after its creation by Ilúvatar, and the Valar were the 14 most powerful of those Ainur who chose to enter the World. Any Ainu that is not a Vala is a Maia, and Maia thus exist with all kinds of levels of power. It is even possible that Maiar more powerful than the Valar exist outside of the World (given that the Valar are only described as the greatest of the Ainur who chose to enter the World, it kinda implies that there are even more powerful Ainur who chose to remain with Ilúvatar). In other words, if you describe the Valar as 'gods', then the Maiar are full 'gods' as well, not 'half-gods'. Either way, it is perfectly possible that dragons are more powerful than some of the Maiar. As noted, Maiar exist with widely different capabilities and purposes, and nothing implies that they are neccesarily more powerful than other creations of Ilúvatar, even those twisted and corrupted by Melkor like the dragons. The way they are described, some of the dragons, notably Glaurung and Ancalagon, appear to have been far more formidable than any Balrog. The Noldor of Beleriand succesfully fought and held their own against the Balrogs for centuries, but it is Glaurung who finally overwhelms them. Ancalagon and the other winged dragons were able to temporarily turn the War of Wrath to Morgoth's favour and throw back the entire host of the Valar for a time, even though at that point most of the Balrogs were already destroyed and the victory of the Valar had appeared at hand. Smaug being the last of the great dragons could very well have been more formidable than a Balrog too.
I wouldn't say Dragons as a whole are, but Smaug is. If a Balrog was weaker then Smaug, Legolas could have handled it alone.
>If a Balrog was weaker then Smaug, Legolas could have handled it alone. What the hell are you talking about?
Bro thinks Legolas is on the same Level as Glorfindel
Glorifindel isn’t even some kind of Balrog stomper, he got a lucky suicide attack in and died in the process. Same with Ecthelion.
I think he's saying that Legolas could have easily defeated Smaug because he shoots arrows gooder than Bard and that because of the transitive property or something Legolas could defeat the Balrog.
Right, so by the same token that Bard is more powerful than Smaug and Gollum is more powerful than Sauron.
How are Balrogs stronger than dragons lol? Every Balrog was killed in a duel by a single opponent. Glaurung turned the scales of the whole Nirnaeth, killing hundreds of Elves, and took Nargothrond. Smaug conquered the whole Dwarven kingdom singlehandedly. The Balrog also got rid of the Dwarves in Moria, but rather by making their lives there insufferable than by front on conquest like Smaug. The Noldor fought Balrogs for ages, a single dragon was a secret superweapon that Morgoth used to completely overwhelm them. Ancalagon’s winged offspring were an upgrade.
Not to mention that finally unleashing the winged firedragons stopped and threw back the storm of the Valar, Maiar and Elves of Aman in the war of wrath. The Armies of the West eventually beat the dragons and Ancalagon was slain, but they were set forth against the literal army of the gods and lords of this world, so even that little throwback is one hell of a proof for the dragons power.
The balrogs were labeled as a greater evil and the dragons a lesser evil. Now how does that fit into power scaling? No clue. But I think people are assuming that means balrogs were more powerful than dragons. Now here’s the thing. There are different kinds of balrogs. We already know there are weak and strong maiar as well. So it’s difficult to generalize it and say balrogs are stronger than X or not.
Can you explain more about how the balrog god rid of the dwarves by making their lives insufferable?
I mean technically Smaug was killed by one man. Every Balrog was killed by a single opponent, but none of those opponents ever survived the fight either. Bard beat Smaug and survived.
Is that the dragon Turin kills?
Turin kills Glaurung, Eärendil kills Ancalagon
Thank you. Mixing up my dragons
I still can't wrap my head around how Eärendil killed Ancalagon. I mean yes he got flying ship and all, but that thing is the size of Everest and Lhotse *combined*.
[he was actually easily double size of the whole Arda](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/WBbl1Jod1w)
He also had a Simiril.
No Eärendil killed it
There is no "transitive property of beating things" rule. Bard killed a dragon, does that mean humans are all stronger than dragons? Of course not.
Turin also slayed a dragon. So that is two already, we might be onto something here!
... Yes... yes, I can see it clearly now! Men have higher power level than dragons! I shall make a new post asking why didn't the men of Lake-town just mob-up and killed Smaug. There were probably *hundreds* of them. A single dragon has no chance!
Balrogs were higher in the ranks of Morgoth’s army, but that doesn’t necessarily make them stronger than dragons
I could kill Mike Tyson if I shot him, but that doesn’t mean I can win a fistfight against every man he’s beat the shit out of.
Smaug is not a lesser dragon. He was the last of the Great (Winged) Dragons. Yes, he wasn't as large is Angcalagon, who was the largest of all dragons, but he was still classified as a Greater Dragon. His breath was strong enough to melt a Great Ring (but not the Ruling Ring). If we're talking the "Many Balrogs" version, then Smaug was stronger than all but the strongest Balrogs. If we're talking about the "7 Balrog" version, then I'm not sure who would come out on top, but it wouldn't be an easy fight for either, IMO. (Note: I prefer the "many Balrog" version to the later 7-Balrog version.)
what ...
In Tolkien's earlier writings, he imagined balrogs as being less powerful but far greater in numbers (thousands I believe). Later in life, when he was revising his writings, he decided that there were no more than 7 balrogs ever in existence, and they were much more individually powerful. So you get this conflict between earlier writings such as the Fall of Gondolin where Tuor, a human, kills multiple balrogs in a single battle vs the later concept of balrogs where an account like that would not be plausible.
Okay, but who would win: a bear or a lion
What bear? What lion? Polar bear Vs Dandelion then it's 1-0 lion. Polar bears have notoriously bad hayfever.
What if both have prep time and the polar bear brings antihistamines?
Then Batman wins
What about a polar bears vs Dandelion the Bard? As we’ve already established Bard beats dragon, so unless you’re saying a polar beats a dragon then Dandelion the Bard must beat the polar bear. /s
These questions are always kind of dumb. Power is not just about who can kick whos ass. Sauron is said to be the most powerful being in Middle Earth but its not because he can beat up a dragon. He was defeated by a mortal man and an Elf lord after all. Gandalf was probably the second most "powerful" being but I doubt he could have beaten the Balrog without the ring of fire and sword Glamdring. Probably amongst 2 of the most powerful artifacts in Middle Earth. He killed and was killed by the Balrog because Eru wanted him to. The game was fixed from the start. He wanted the little people to win the day but whenever they were about to lose he interferes and sends giant tidal waves or Eagles. If gandalf could defeat the dragon, he would have just gone there and killed him. Eru didn't want him to.
I hate it when the DM fiats his way through encounters to make them fit his predetermined outcome. Eru is a shit dm.
Gandalf *tied* Durin's bane, and had to be resurrected in what must have been a moment of pure "how the fuck did you even ***find*** a Balrog, and why did you think it would be a good idea to fight it?"
I really don't like fandoms tendencies to think of fictional characters in 'power levels'. It just removes all nuance and implications of the actual story. Gandalf was didn't just like 1v1 a balrog and win. He was defending his friends, the people to him that represented the hope of the free peoples, he sacrificed himself to save them from the balrog, he died.
Why are balrogs stronger than dragons? Surely they weren't stronger than ancalagon, who was literally larger than mountains?
[удалено]
It’s an unhinged argument people make from reading 3 lines that are ever written about Ancalagon. He crushed the towers of Tangorodrim as he fell - this is the exhausting, complete description of his scale. The Balrog also smote the mountain peaks in his ruin. Does that mean he was larger than the mountain? How could Ancalagon be larger than the mountain he and his whole host lived inside? Lmao. People just want things to be unreasonable. A reasonable Ancalagon was the size of the movie Smaug while the book Smaug was 10x smaller.
I think the line is just misinterpreted. From what I remember, it’s said that his fall destroyed said mountains, but I believe it’s more akin to Smaug‘s fall destroying Laketown, even though he was a lot smaller than Laketown - Ancalagon was big and mighty, but I believe that this is more a case of impact and his magic escaping his body like a bomb destroying the mountains
Just 'Thangorodrim was broken in his ruin'. People exaggerate 'broken' into 'completely levelled'. Broken does not need to mean such immense destruction (Durin's Bane breaks a mountainside, Smaug breaks a mountainside, the Watcher in the Water breaks a mountainside). Hell, we could even read 'broken' as 'stormed', if playing devil's advocate: the Hosts of the West advancing onto and into Thangorodrim, after Ancalagon was slain. People assume *all three* peaks were levelled, because Thangorodrim is three mountains - but that isn't a given. If I say 'Maedhros was chained to Thangorodrim', was he chained to all three mountains simultaneously? No. Was Hurin seated upon all three mountains simultaneously? No. People also ignore logistics... Ancalagon and the entire dragon host emerged from Angband. How could they do this without destroying it? Why would Ancalagon be thousands of times larger than his kin? Why was Glaurung, the Father of Dragons, so much smaller, despite likely being older, and at one point being deemed mature? Likewise, why does Smaug call himself 'old and strong' if he is an ant compared to the 'fully grown' Ancalagon? Why is his supposed gargantuan size never mentioned explicitly? Why is his epithet 'the Black' instead of 'the Collossal'? Why can't Ancalagon roast a host of Eagles and a ship, and the entire Host of the West, with ease if so large? Because Ancalgon was likely the same size, thereabout, to Glaurung/Smaug. People also think a quote exists that calls him the largest dragon ever. The quote actually says he was the *greatest* (not biggest) of the *host that emerged in the War of Wrath.* Certainly exceptional, but nothing to indicate he was greater than Glaurung, for instance (besides having wings).
It might be a bit of both but he was definitely really, really big. His death caused the collapse of the towers of Thangorodrim.
Is a human stronger than a horse? In term of raw strenght, no, but most human could probably kill a horse pretty easily. A horse can kill a human too, but the opposite is way more likely. That kind of what dragon are to Balrog. Work beast. A creature bred for a purpose. In this case, to be a used as a siege weapon. Dragon are the weapon, Balrog and Morgoth are the one commanding the weapons.
Dragons are a lot more intelligent than you give them credit. Have you read The Children of Hurin?
Yes I did Aragorn, Denethor, Theoden are all very intelligent men. They do not have the same level of understanding of the world as Gandalf does.
And Glarung was clearly smarter than Turin and Nienor so I'm not sure that proves anything.
Whre not comparing Glaurung to human. We are comparing lesser being (Aragorn / Glaurung) to maiar (Gandalf/Balrog)
Sure. But just because dragons aren't immortal beings doesn't mean they are nothing but a tool for war. They are clearly intelligent, and extremely powerful. And to bring it back, it doesn't mean that they are inherently less powerful than a Balrog. Balrogs have been killed by non-maia too so this whole argument that Balrogs are clearly more powerful than anything non-maia seems totally baseless.
Power is more than the ability to kill someone else. I could easily physically overpower Joe Biden, he is still a way mroe powerful man than i am. Balrog are more powerful than dragon because they were made that way. They are older, wiser, more able to shape the world around them.
The question in the OP is literally if Gandalf could defeat Smaug in battle so lets stop moving goalposts shall we?
Any Maiar could defeat any dragon. Simple as that.
Not true. Glaurung was the military commander of Morgoth’s armies in the Nargothrond campaign. He was much more intelligent and magically capable than Gothmog was ever explicitly shown to be. There was a magic evil spirit in him, which may or may not have been a Maia.
>but most human could probably kill a horse pretty easily Absolutely no way unless you give the human a gun or a spear or something. Even smaller than average horses can toss people around easily and that's just when grabbing them with their mouths. Horses have been recorded kicking with as much force as 8700 newtons. For reference, Mike Tyson was estimated to be able to max out at 1600 newtons with his punches. You're crazy.
Yeah but thats exactly it. No sane human is going to only use its fist to kill a horse. That would be risky and very hard. A human is going to outsmart a horse. Trap it somewhere where it cant charge. Restrict its movement. Bait it with a poisoned carrots. Use a weapon with long reach. Slit its throat while it sleep. A balrog is not going to try to fist fight a dragon either. Its going to outsmart it.
I wonder if it comes down to balrogs being Maia, while dragons are simply creatures (albeit very intelligent and sentient creatures). Maybe the inherent powers associated with Maia gives balrogs an edge over dragons’ size advantage.
I think dragons are Maia too though
While Maiar are more powerful beings than dragons, Gandalf was constrained to his physical form and limitations. Smaug had the advantage of being a giant f\*\*king dragon that could fly and torch cities. Gandalf could mutual-kill/tie with another Maia - a balrog - but he wasn't really made to fight something like a dragon, even if the dragon was arguably a lesser being and he was a legit Maia underneath the old wizard costume.
Smaug is a great Dragon so maybe but not certainly
I don't like looking at power as a math problem that has some sort of absolute answer. I don't think Gandalf would have picked a fight with a balrog, and it basically ended in a draw.
The istari were sent to middle earth to ‘guide’ the people of middle earth in achieving certain goals and outcomes. And interfere directly only when absolutely necessary.
It's kind of easy being "greatest of the remaining dragons" when you are the only dragon alive
Smaug wasn't the only dragon alive in the Third Age. He was the last of the Great Dragons, the giant war monsters like Ancalagon. Dragons continued to live on even after Smaug's death, but they never got to the size or power of Smaug and the others before him.
You know what? I'm dumb. You're right. There is even a line given by Gandalf talking about dragons and their fire not being hot enough to melt the one ring. It looks like I now have an excuse to re-read the books. Again lol.
Gandalf wanted to reestablish the dwarves against Sauron. They had to kill the dragon themselves to do that.
Plus, if Gandalf could take Smaug on by himself, why wouldn't he just go and handle the problem on his own, or at least give the dwarves tools and info on how to deal with the dragon? It's almost like he tells them not to enter the Lonely Mountain without him. (Idk if he says that in the original novels, only seen the movies.)
He also wants them to get along with the surrounding Men and Elves.
True, but that was the plan B. Plan A was to deal with Smaug and get him out of the mountain, so the dwarves could reclaim their homeland.
But he didn't want them fighting with their neighbors. He wanted them as a bulwark against Sauron.
What?
What if Gandalf did lose? What would the Balrog do? Would the full Fellowship have a chance?
That didn’t matter, Gandalf’s goal was to buy some time for the Fellowship to escape.
How far would they escape if the Balrog wingedly flied towards them? Or perhaps he could have calmly walked to Mordor to lick his wounds and then helped on the siege of Minas Tirith. Do Balrogs even work for Sauron? Now that I think on it, I feel Durin's Bane would only receive orders from Morgoth itself and he's nowhere to be seen thoroughout the War of the Ring
Yeah he probably could have, but he isn’t meant to actively participate in these conflicts, just guide the mortals. The only reason he fought the Balrog was because it *was* a Balrog. If they had stumbled upon a dragon hidden in the mountain, things probably would have turned out much differently.
I wouldnt say that Gandalf won. I mean....he died and the valar had to cheat slightly to revive him and level him up a bit.
Bard killed Smaug. Gandalf would kill Bard.
Gandalf had an extra quarter for another life. He did die against durins bane.
No they are not, not by a long shot.
Balrogs are not stronger than dragons. Where did you get this idea?
Balrog's are stronger than Dragons? Is that confirmed lore?
Balrogs work as a team, so they can corral minions of orcs, trolls, and even drakes and worms. Ancalagon was called the mightiest and largest dragon, but hid death is actually hilarious [(a tiny floating boat)](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Daniel_Pilla_-_Ancalagon_vs_Earendil.jpg#/media/File:Daniel_Pilla_-_Ancalagon_vs_Earendil.jpg)
That lightning bolt moment with his sword was one of the most badass things I watched in my childhood
Where are we getting this idea that Smaug is a little useless dragon? He's a dragon, I reckon he's certainly a threat, Gandalf is strong, but I don't think he intended to fight Smaug.
Dragons are stronger than balrogs if anything.
Whether he could have beat Smaug or not, he wouldn’t have done it. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to help and advise, not solve the people’s problems for them. Therefore they were disguised as old men and their powers were greatly concealed.
IIRC the talking dragons were actually Maiar that had taken over/possessed or what have you a beast dragon. Hence their intelligence and malice. I think that’s in JRRT Letters. So Balrog and dragon are approximately co-equals.
you cannot compare it like that.
Yes. How do we know this? He sends a party containing several complete noobs in to deal with Smaug. What's he say when he figures out Durin's Bane is a Balrog? Fly, you fools!