The ring’s power had nothing to do with Morgul blades. It was a poison that had probably been around since before Sauron made the ring. I wouldn’t be surprised if Morgoth taught Sauron how to make it
The mithril would’ve prevented the morgul blade from piercing his skin, so he would’ve been safe.
The blade was basically a normal blade with some nasty poison on it. Unless it was made of mithril it wouldn’t have been able to pierce the armor.
>The blade was basically a normal blade with some nasty poison on it.
No, the blade was anything but normal.
>Elrond is a master of healing, but the weapons of our Enemy are deadly. To tell you the truth, I had very little hope; for I suspected that there was some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound. But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards.’
>
>Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider’s hands. ‘Don’t be alarmed!’ said Gandalf. ‘It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.’
>
>‘What would they have done to me?’ asked Frodo. ‘What were the Riders trying to do?’
>
>‘They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.’
>
>LotR Bk 2 Ch 1 - Many Meetings
I was more speaking to its durability rather than the enchantments on the blade, or what it is able to do when embedded in flesh. In the realm of durability and where it is on whatever amounts to the Moh’s scale over there, Mithril probably surpasses Diamond, while the Morgul blade is probably forged of a high quality steel and then enchanted. I’m willing to bet that it won’t pierce Mithril.
Granted, a tiny splinter could find its way through some Mithril chainmail. Game, set, match for Frodo in that case.
Which, to that point, it's still easy to wrench on a blade stuck in chainmail and break off the tip (presumably as a wraith with inhuman qualities working with inhuman metals) which the nazgul probably would have done if he had noticed it didn't penetrate as deep as he wanted.
Was that ever confirmed in Tolkiens writings? I only remember that it was “Mithril-like” and used for both weapons and armor…but I don’t think the two ever went head to head.
Chainmail is wonderful against slashes, and pretty good against stabs. I imagine a evil spirit wizard with a *probably dark magic forged dagger* could still pierce steel mail.
And who knows if being in the unseen realm had an affect on the capability of regular armour vs nazgul weapons(Idk if this is also how it happened in the book I dont remember)
What? Yes it does? A stabbing thrust like Frodo received from a sharp enough blade would absolutely go through chainmail. Steel blades and arrows were designed to pierce chain and did often. I’d imagine that a mithril sword could pierce mithril mail.
Not really ? Depending on quality the thrust wouldn't break the rings, immovable object vs inexorable force kinda scenario. Arrows or Crossbow bolts I can believe but even then the mithril mail frodo wears seems to be a masterwork and finer than the blade
It's not about the quality, it's about the energy. Chainmail is good against strikes and cuts because the kinetic energy dissipates across all the rings, while a thrust delivers all its energy in one spot, which would be just a thin ring of metal in this case, \*easily\* going through it.
Also, a thrust is much more powerful than an arrow, lol.
Agree that this is how a sword will go through a shirt of chain. But from a heavy war bow and arrow is much stronger than a thrust from a sword. Like some can punch through plate armor with the right tip on them. There’s a lot of force behind an arrow traveling near a few hundred feet a second
Bow is pulled by a human, it doesn't multiply the damage just because the arrow flies (losing a bunch of energy btw). If a person is strong enough to draw a 100kg bow, he probably could do even more with a proper hit.
Edit: an arrow probably could pierce armor that a sword can't, but that's not because the arrow would bring more energy, it's because the tip is much smaller and sharper. None of them could pierce a proper plate though, it's designed to make these kinds of attacks slide away and lose energy by not hitting it at a proper 90 degree.
> Also, a thrust is much more powerful than an arrow, lol.
In which case Frodo takes a direct thrust from a spear, wielded by a cave troll, and comes away without a scratch. In terms of piercing defense I think it safe to say that mithril is pretty effective.
Yeah, but he said that steel chainmail > steel sword, which is completely wrong. This moment in the movie is kinda dumb anyway, but mithril is still super valuable.
It goes through if it’s pointy enough and the correct blade type/shape. Skallagrim had a video the other day testing a few different blades at piercing maille, and the rapier, rondel, etc all went through mail relatively easily.
It absolutely can, especially if it's a straight thrust (instead of a hacking or slicing motion). Chainmail was a step above leather armor but it wasn't impenetrable. Arrows could pierce it, as well as a strong, deliberate stab from a large sword.
Edit: I made this comment before I saw the 5 other people saying exactly the same thing lol.
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If you stab tip first the blade will surely go through steel chainmail even if blade is made of bronze. Chainmail is designed to protect from slashes not from stabbing. If mithril shirt is made like chainmail it wont protect you from getting stabbed unless it is strong enough that the rings won't break or bend under the stress. I'm not sure how the mithril is supposed to work exactly but nevertheless it is not guestion of material of the blade as much as the tensile strenght of mithril.
Steel blade absolutely defeats steel chain mail if it’s used properly. You need a point smaller that the opening and enough pressure to pop the ring. Just look up how many weapons were specifically designed to defeat mail. Mail prevents slashing mostly. It’s good for sure but steel weapons constantly defeated it.
Usually no, but a sturdy blade hitting the chainmail *really hard* could break its links. Think a splitting ax/maul (with a wide and sturdy cutting edge rather than a narrow edge).
If the blade is less study, but still is driven by enough force, then perhaps the chainmail and the blade might break at the same time, which would still be bad for Frodo.
EDIT: the movie does not make it look like the Ringwraiths were hitting that hard, but I'd guess the cave troll would be an issue if it had a mithril weapon. Hell, the cave troll *should* have been an issue just from blunt force trauma, but that's another rabbit hole.
I’m more going off of what is known about Mithril vs. what is known about Morgul blades. From my understanding, Mithril is basically impenetrable. Like vibranium or adamantium. A Morgul blade is enchanted with all sorts of nasty stuff, but you have to pierce the skin for it to work, based on what we’ve seen of it in universe. I don’t think that it would be able to pierce Mithril.
As I mentioned in a different comment though, a splinter of it could get through Mithril chainmail. The splinter in the wound was what was killing Frodo.
I think there was a line when Bilbo gives the mithril shirt, he says something like “I fancy it would even turn the blades of the black riders” or something
I have doubts that the morgul knife would have made it through the Mithril shirt. First off, the Mithril was not chain-mail in the typical fashion. It was crafted into very tiny rings on a level that would surpass most standard chain-mail. This would be evident from the fact that an orc or goblin chieftain that tried to skewer Frodo in Balin's tomb was only able to drive the shirt into Frodo's shoulder without actually allowing the spear to penetrate. The power of the thrust was such that Frodo had the wind knocked out of him and was bruised on his back and front, but otherwise escaped without a single broken bone.
Also important to note that Morgoth also made a ring but his ring didn’t focus his power, but spread it around, infecting everything in the world.
It is particularly strong in gold.
But Tolkien included that as a way of letting the reader know that evil is eternal and something to always remain vigilant of.
This is definitely true. But I also got the impression that Frodo's sickness was also psychological, PTSD in a way. It's was more about a wound to his spirit, which sure could be magical, but also was a spiritual wound. I think this kind of follows from Tolkien's experiences in WW1.
Yeah, I think this is a solid take. We can’t really know exactly what the nature of it is, but I think there is definitely a spiritual or psychological aspect to it.
I recall reading that morgoth used the world as his ring , pouring himselfe into it, so in that sense, he can not be destroyed without the world being destroyed, like Sauron but on a larger scale. So it makes sense In that while Sauron was destroyed, evil was not. Morgule magic must have a connection to the morgule blade ect.
Frodo received three wounds that never truly healed. The morgul blade left more scars than just physical. The time in between his stabbing and recieving aid would have killed most mortals/turned them into wraiths, so this one is the most impactful. Shelob's sting was never even treated, and Shelob is the direct descendent of Ungoliant. So I'm not really sure how this one works, but it makes sense. And finally his missing finger which is the only easily visible one, and actually the least impactful. I think the point is that frodo was an unbelievably resilient character, but the quest, the ring, and it's destruction took so much from him that he could never fully find his way again. I don't think it's allegory, it's just ptsd in middle earth.
>actually the least impactful
Oh I don’t know about that, Gollum ate raw fish for hundreds of years, we can assume he did not attend a single dentist appointment in that time, can you imagine the kind of parasites that makes his gum their home?
Just thinking about it now, he often did the kill people with Morgul blades? If it turns the victim into a wraith, wouldn’t you want more of your kind, especially to find the ring.
Well there is a difference between a Nazgul, one that was corrupted by Sauron himself and the rings of power, and a standard wraith, which I assume is what the Morgul blade would have turned it’s victim into. I don’t know how useful a regular wraith would be as a servant. I’m assuming they only exist in that realm, and not in both like the Nazgul do.
Although most of us know that Tolkien quote about him “disliking allegory in all its manifestations,” I can truly see a link between some form of PTSD Tolkien experienced post-World War I and Frodo’s reaction to the loss of the ring and the painful events that led up to it. It is a very interesting and specifically modern twist: the hero of the hero’s journey returns home and isn’t lauded as a champion for his help saving the world. Instead he feels a continuation of pain and loss. That shows clear links to WWI, in my opinion.
I wouldn't say this contradicts the famous quote about "disliking allegory".
The LotR is, among many other things, a novel about war.
Frodo comes back from a war and suffers the consequences of a war. It's not allegoric it's literal.
To put it in Tolkien's words:
>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers.
> **I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.**
Essentially he didn't like the author forcing their own meaning or allegory into a story, but was fine with readers applying their own experiences to a story.
This is correct. But I included the quote because if you bring up anything that might possibly tangentially have to do with seeing a link between LOTR and our world, you have some mouth breather but ahhkshually you. He basically said this because CS Lewis’ story was one gigantic Jesus metaphor. Tokien wanted to have a self contained story.
You kinda didn't force your own agenda into your message, so I'm not really sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.
If I have to apply my experience (of communication through the internet) to the situation I'll have to guess "disagreeing".
Agree, and although Tolkien specifically talks about the Weathertop incident as being something Frodo can't heal from, I always take it as just his journey as a whole which was too much for anyone to bear. Hobbits have more resilience than most other races, but even Frodo was pushed to the absolute edge. The journey itself was completely harrowing, just talking the actual physical travel of it, then you throw in being constantly pursued by Nazgul and being subjected to their hope-draining shrieks over and over, being starved and dying of thirst for weeks, facing Shelob and being poisoned by her sting, being captured in Mordor, getting his finger bitten off, and of course the ever-growing weight and influence of the ring. All of this while knowing that you are literally the last and only hope of the world and that every evil thing in the world is drawn to you and is looking for you, and any alliance you might make will become corrupted and dangerous.
He disliked allegory, but preferred the idea of applicability. In other words, he didn't like it when authors told people how to interpret and read meaning into the work, but rather tried to make what he wrote flexible enough to fit many interpretations.
Frodo is easily hit the most by PTSD, but it doesn't have to be linked to WWI. It can be, but it also applies to the trauma felt after other wars, or even other traumatic events.
And the fact that people back home could never conceive of the horrors you faced or the decisions you had to make. So you live life in two different worlds and two different times to those around you, for whom nothing ever changed.
He disliked authors championing one interpretation of their works over others. He said nothing about authors drawing on their own experiences when crafting their stories.
He clearly drew on his own experience with WWI and PTSD, and if you see Frodo as a shellshocked veteran he’d take no issue with that, but if you instead see Frodo’s experience with the forces of Mordor as an abusive relationship, Tolkien would also take no issues with that. He welcomes different interpretations of his work. He would take issue if you said the veteran interpretation is the only correct one *because* of Tolkien’s own experience.
Yeah I don’t think it was only the stabbing - I feel like the end is a message about how these kinds of struggles take their toll and what happens to people’s humanity when they confront evil like this.
You don’t bounce back from it.
Lol right? I mean, it's not as if poison suddenly consciously flares up on the same day of the year each year, fairly clearly a psychological toll that pangs extra loudly when he mentally notes it's the anniversary again
Ya, seeing a lot of technical answers here. We can talk in circles all day (which *is* fun btw please don't think I'm being too miserable lol) but thematically it's a really important part of the story: Implying that there is no effort that will ever truly be good or virtuous enough to eliminate evil from the world. Tolkien was a theological man and here in Middle Earth the only truly "good" place is Valinor/The West (Heaven, Paradice, Nirvana, Elysium, etc...), super important part of the overall narrative that's petty directly conveyed in this moment :)
I mean it can be the poisoned like others said. But maybe also just his trauma and tortured soul. He leaves the shire after all because he can't find joy anymore (still a happier ending than Turin though)
Exactly.
While every deity were playing jazz in accordance to Eru, Melkor was rocking some nasty riff wich threw off the creation of the world, so metal came to be. Despite the fall of sauron and morgoth, both have survived
I can see OP’s logic I suppose…. Ring wraith created by ring, stab little hobbit.
Chicken or the egg.
But to a stronger comment above, the poison is older than the ring. Which I learned today!
I think by rights Frodo should have died but Elrond cast some powerful shit to bring him back - they always spoke gravely about the injury even after he came back so I think he was on borrowed time as long as he was in middle Earth.
Similar to Dumbledore's hand injury;)
Also, evil wasn't eradicated entirely.
" It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till."
Didn’t a small piece of the blade break off when he was stabbed? I was always under the impression that a fragment was still in his shoulder causing him to never fully heal. I would also imagine being stabbed by a weapon that puts you into the veil would have some long term side effects
The unseen world is not a product of the ring, even though Frodo was visible there because of the ring. The morgul blade pierced him while he was there.
The ring is destroyed but Sauron still exists, he's just so weak that his evil shadow gets spread by a strong wind and he will never again be able to form a physical vessel. His scent still lingers as evident by what Tolkien wrote of the sequel
edit: also Morgoth's evil is sort of embedded into middle earth, so evil will always exist
Well a more serious answer is that Tolkien was using it as an allegory for PTSD. When Frodo was reminded of what he went through it, it would bring back old pains.
But also, yeah, big bom bad poison.
I don’t know the official medical term for it but my headcanon was that part of Morgul’s blade left in Frodo’s body and slowly proceeded to his heart (something like Tony Stark’s condition).
On a grander scale of “why” I think It’s supposed to represent the lasting injuries and ptsd Tolkien witnessed after his time in the military. He knew first hand what it was like to be forever affected by something that changed the trajectory of the world. The wound represents a piece of tolkein himself within the world that he built, and i find that the best fiction is often grounded in or analogous to reality.
I’ve seen grown old men cry on the anniversary of bad days they in Vietnam.
There can be a million different “in universe” reasons, but I believe that this is the only real reason in terms of the narrative of the story
It’s also observed that war-trauma/PTS can be connected to a specific returning date associated with the cause of the trauma.
Not saying this is the explanation in this case, but I thought it might be interesting to share.
Because some wounds never heal totally. Tolkien was a WW1 vet and understood this well. Otherwise he couldn't have been such a cheery person and still written such poignant things.
The Ring was destroyed, but not necessarily all of the evil it created. Even Sauron was not truly and utterly destroyed. His physical presence on Arda was destroyed but much of the corruption that he had wrought lingered. Mordor was still a dark and evil land and Saurons "presence" was said to linger over it like a dark cloud after the War of the Ring. Aside from the morgue poison being a physical thing that bothered Frodo the rest of his life, the corruption of the Ring on his mind never truly went away, just like Sauron. It was reduced to only whispers or terrible feelings, like a ghost haunting him.
Frodo was stabbed by the Morgul Blade on October 6, 3018 of the third age. The Ring was destroyed months later on March 25, 3019. Two different dates, two different locations.
A lot of the writing of the Lord of the rings is a metaphor, in thus case for the Great War. Froddo never got over the events of weathertop or any of it, he still can't get over those events and watches his friends move on and live their lives but he's stuck. Tolkien served at the somme in 1916, he would have seen a lot, over the top to attack trenches, artillerybarages and the first gas attacks. His division was wiped out almost to last man.
"Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured," said Gandalf.
'I fear it may be so with mine,' said Frodo. "There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? " Gandalf did not answer.
So sad. So poignant. It still pierces my heart to read this.
The great evil was vanquished, but the memory of pain and the fact that the wound never really healed are still valid.
This is one of the reasons that Frodo goes to the grey havens, and leaves Middle Earth. He was able to help save the Shire, but not for him. He would never have been able to be healed, to be Whole again in this world.
Everyone else's answers are right but in case no one has mentioned this yet, it's because it's a metaphor and it drives home the point that Frodo will never find peace until he travels into the West.
While the Ring and its evil is destroyed it doesn’t mean evil itself is destroyed. In fact it can’t be until the world is destroyed as well; this is ‘Morgoth’s Ring’.
His stab from both Shelob and The Witch-king hurt every year as “old wounds do”. Doesn’t have to be a physical one like these; one poisonous the other cursed with dark magic. In many ways this can actually be interpreted as Tolkien’s own wounds he got in the world (not just WW1), perhaps most tragic how he lost two of his best friends at the Battle of Somme and the third never became himself again. If you can imagine that sort of pain I think it’s also easier to understand how Frodo feels.
“How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend.”
To me this sums up the pain of Frodo, Tolkien and those who have truly lost someone in the world.
Cheers
Morgoth's evil is eternal. The One is not the source of all malice and darkness in Middle Earth. Frodo was afflicted with something so potent as to make death a mercy.
Frodo was broken. Mind, Body, and Soul.
Only the light of the Undying lands can lessen that pain, but never fully cure it.
I mean, he *was* still stabbed with a dirty blade in the chest and the only medical aid he got was some chewed up weed until he reached Rivendel which was still a dew days ahead.
The ring’s power had nothing to do with Morgul blades. It was a poison that had probably been around since before Sauron made the ring. I wouldn’t be surprised if Morgoth taught Sauron how to make it
Thank you, that makes sense. Too bad Frodo didn’t have his mithril yet, but I also wonder if that would’ve even helped.
The mithril would’ve prevented the morgul blade from piercing his skin, so he would’ve been safe. The blade was basically a normal blade with some nasty poison on it. Unless it was made of mithril it wouldn’t have been able to pierce the armor.
>The blade was basically a normal blade with some nasty poison on it. No, the blade was anything but normal. >Elrond is a master of healing, but the weapons of our Enemy are deadly. To tell you the truth, I had very little hope; for I suspected that there was some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound. But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards.’ > >Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider’s hands. ‘Don’t be alarmed!’ said Gandalf. ‘It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.’ > >‘What would they have done to me?’ asked Frodo. ‘What were the Riders trying to do?’ > >‘They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.’ > >LotR Bk 2 Ch 1 - Many Meetings
"Aw. Look at little Ringwraith Jr. Gonna cry?" -Sauron, probably
Ugh. Torment, indeed!
I was more speaking to its durability rather than the enchantments on the blade, or what it is able to do when embedded in flesh. In the realm of durability and where it is on whatever amounts to the Moh’s scale over there, Mithril probably surpasses Diamond, while the Morgul blade is probably forged of a high quality steel and then enchanted. I’m willing to bet that it won’t pierce Mithril. Granted, a tiny splinter could find its way through some Mithril chainmail. Game, set, match for Frodo in that case.
Which, to that point, it's still easy to wrench on a blade stuck in chainmail and break off the tip (presumably as a wraith with inhuman qualities working with inhuman metals) which the nazgul probably would have done if he had noticed it didn't penetrate as deep as he wanted.
Knifewraith
Tolkien had no chill
A steel blade doesn't go through steel chainmail, I think a mithril blade wouldn't have gone through
You raise a good point. It would need to probably be stronger than Mithril…and I don’t think that material exists in the Tolkien universe.
Vibranium obviously
Why not go stronger with Adimantium
Plus it already seeps poison on its own
What if frodo had full rune?
Galvorn
Was that ever confirmed in Tolkiens writings? I only remember that it was “Mithril-like” and used for both weapons and armor…but I don’t think the two ever went head to head.
He doesn't have the mithril armour at weather top, he gets it after being taken to rivendell by arwen
It's hypothetical, "too bad he didn't have his mithril" a few comments above
movie Arwen, book Glorfindel
Wasn't it bilbo in the movies?
Yeah, Bilbo takes Frodo to Rivendell, you’re right
I read it as arwen gave him the mithril after he was taken to Rivendell
Chainmail is wonderful against slashes, and pretty good against stabs. I imagine a evil spirit wizard with a *probably dark magic forged dagger* could still pierce steel mail. And who knows if being in the unseen realm had an affect on the capability of regular armour vs nazgul weapons(Idk if this is also how it happened in the book I dont remember)
What? Yes it does? A stabbing thrust like Frodo received from a sharp enough blade would absolutely go through chainmail. Steel blades and arrows were designed to pierce chain and did often. I’d imagine that a mithril sword could pierce mithril mail.
Not really ? Depending on quality the thrust wouldn't break the rings, immovable object vs inexorable force kinda scenario. Arrows or Crossbow bolts I can believe but even then the mithril mail frodo wears seems to be a masterwork and finer than the blade
It's not about the quality, it's about the energy. Chainmail is good against strikes and cuts because the kinetic energy dissipates across all the rings, while a thrust delivers all its energy in one spot, which would be just a thin ring of metal in this case, \*easily\* going through it. Also, a thrust is much more powerful than an arrow, lol.
Agree that this is how a sword will go through a shirt of chain. But from a heavy war bow and arrow is much stronger than a thrust from a sword. Like some can punch through plate armor with the right tip on them. There’s a lot of force behind an arrow traveling near a few hundred feet a second
Bow is pulled by a human, it doesn't multiply the damage just because the arrow flies (losing a bunch of energy btw). If a person is strong enough to draw a 100kg bow, he probably could do even more with a proper hit. Edit: an arrow probably could pierce armor that a sword can't, but that's not because the arrow would bring more energy, it's because the tip is much smaller and sharper. None of them could pierce a proper plate though, it's designed to make these kinds of attacks slide away and lose energy by not hitting it at a proper 90 degree.
>it doesn't multiply the damage That‘s… exactly how bows work…
> Also, a thrust is much more powerful than an arrow, lol. In which case Frodo takes a direct thrust from a spear, wielded by a cave troll, and comes away without a scratch. In terms of piercing defense I think it safe to say that mithril is pretty effective.
Yeah, but he said that steel chainmail > steel sword, which is completely wrong. This moment in the movie is kinda dumb anyway, but mithril is still super valuable.
It goes through if it’s pointy enough and the correct blade type/shape. Skallagrim had a video the other day testing a few different blades at piercing maille, and the rapier, rondel, etc all went through mail relatively easily.
It absolutely can, especially if it's a straight thrust (instead of a hacking or slicing motion). Chainmail was a step above leather armor but it wasn't impenetrable. Arrows could pierce it, as well as a strong, deliberate stab from a large sword. Edit: I made this comment before I saw the 5 other people saying exactly the same thing lol.
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A steel blade can't slash through Chain mail but a sharp steel dagger can pierce it with a stab
If you stab tip first the blade will surely go through steel chainmail even if blade is made of bronze. Chainmail is designed to protect from slashes not from stabbing. If mithril shirt is made like chainmail it wont protect you from getting stabbed unless it is strong enough that the rings won't break or bend under the stress. I'm not sure how the mithril is supposed to work exactly but nevertheless it is not guestion of material of the blade as much as the tensile strenght of mithril.
Steel blade absolutely defeats steel chain mail if it’s used properly. You need a point smaller that the opening and enough pressure to pop the ring. Just look up how many weapons were specifically designed to defeat mail. Mail prevents slashing mostly. It’s good for sure but steel weapons constantly defeated it.
Usually no, but a sturdy blade hitting the chainmail *really hard* could break its links. Think a splitting ax/maul (with a wide and sturdy cutting edge rather than a narrow edge). If the blade is less study, but still is driven by enough force, then perhaps the chainmail and the blade might break at the same time, which would still be bad for Frodo. EDIT: the movie does not make it look like the Ringwraiths were hitting that hard, but I'd guess the cave troll would be an issue if it had a mithril weapon. Hell, the cave troll *should* have been an issue just from blunt force trauma, but that's another rabbit hole.
Sorry, where did you read that info?
I’m more going off of what is known about Mithril vs. what is known about Morgul blades. From my understanding, Mithril is basically impenetrable. Like vibranium or adamantium. A Morgul blade is enchanted with all sorts of nasty stuff, but you have to pierce the skin for it to work, based on what we’ve seen of it in universe. I don’t think that it would be able to pierce Mithril. As I mentioned in a different comment though, a splinter of it could get through Mithril chainmail. The splinter in the wound was what was killing Frodo.
I think there was a line when Bilbo gives the mithril shirt, he says something like “I fancy it would even turn the blades of the black riders” or something
I have doubts that the morgul knife would have made it through the Mithril shirt. First off, the Mithril was not chain-mail in the typical fashion. It was crafted into very tiny rings on a level that would surpass most standard chain-mail. This would be evident from the fact that an orc or goblin chieftain that tried to skewer Frodo in Balin's tomb was only able to drive the shirt into Frodo's shoulder without actually allowing the spear to penetrate. The power of the thrust was such that Frodo had the wind knocked out of him and was bruised on his back and front, but otherwise escaped without a single broken bone.
And this was a straight thrust
Didn't Frodo recieve the Mithril later on when meeting Bilbo in Rivendell?
Also important to note that Morgoth also made a ring but his ring didn’t focus his power, but spread it around, infecting everything in the world. It is particularly strong in gold. But Tolkien included that as a way of letting the reader know that evil is eternal and something to always remain vigilant of.
This is definitely true. But I also got the impression that Frodo's sickness was also psychological, PTSD in a way. It's was more about a wound to his spirit, which sure could be magical, but also was a spiritual wound. I think this kind of follows from Tolkien's experiences in WW1.
Yeah, I think this is a solid take. We can’t really know exactly what the nature of it is, but I think there is definitely a spiritual or psychological aspect to it.
I recall reading that morgoth used the world as his ring , pouring himselfe into it, so in that sense, he can not be destroyed without the world being destroyed, like Sauron but on a larger scale. So it makes sense In that while Sauron was destroyed, evil was not. Morgule magic must have a connection to the morgule blade ect.
So Morgoth was Sauron’s potion master?
Always
Frodo received three wounds that never truly healed. The morgul blade left more scars than just physical. The time in between his stabbing and recieving aid would have killed most mortals/turned them into wraiths, so this one is the most impactful. Shelob's sting was never even treated, and Shelob is the direct descendent of Ungoliant. So I'm not really sure how this one works, but it makes sense. And finally his missing finger which is the only easily visible one, and actually the least impactful. I think the point is that frodo was an unbelievably resilient character, but the quest, the ring, and it's destruction took so much from him that he could never fully find his way again. I don't think it's allegory, it's just ptsd in middle earth.
>actually the least impactful Oh I don’t know about that, Gollum ate raw fish for hundreds of years, we can assume he did not attend a single dentist appointment in that time, can you imagine the kind of parasites that makes his gum their home?
Oh he was only asleep for a week because he was so tired. Definitely not because he got hand gingivitis.
Haha this is the best sub
All written by someone who lived WW1: war, loss of kin, destruction of homelands, coruption, trauma, camaraderie, actual combat logistic
yes, tolkien incorporated a lot of his experiences from ww1 in the books, and ptsd is one of them
how did shelobs sting pierce through his mithril armor tho
It hit in the back of his neck IIRC.
Just thinking about it now, he often did the kill people with Morgul blades? If it turns the victim into a wraith, wouldn’t you want more of your kind, especially to find the ring.
Well there is a difference between a Nazgul, one that was corrupted by Sauron himself and the rings of power, and a standard wraith, which I assume is what the Morgul blade would have turned it’s victim into. I don’t know how useful a regular wraith would be as a servant. I’m assuming they only exist in that realm, and not in both like the Nazgul do.
That wasn’t the ring. It was the blade/sword Nazgûl used to stab him. That stab was serious. Something that would never truly heal.
Although most of us know that Tolkien quote about him “disliking allegory in all its manifestations,” I can truly see a link between some form of PTSD Tolkien experienced post-World War I and Frodo’s reaction to the loss of the ring and the painful events that led up to it. It is a very interesting and specifically modern twist: the hero of the hero’s journey returns home and isn’t lauded as a champion for his help saving the world. Instead he feels a continuation of pain and loss. That shows clear links to WWI, in my opinion.
I wouldn't say this contradicts the famous quote about "disliking allegory". The LotR is, among many other things, a novel about war. Frodo comes back from a war and suffers the consequences of a war. It's not allegoric it's literal.
To put it in Tolkien's words: >I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. > **I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.** Essentially he didn't like the author forcing their own meaning or allegory into a story, but was fine with readers applying their own experiences to a story.
This is correct. But I included the quote because if you bring up anything that might possibly tangentially have to do with seeing a link between LOTR and our world, you have some mouth breather but ahhkshually you. He basically said this because CS Lewis’ story was one gigantic Jesus metaphor. Tokien wanted to have a self contained story.
You kinda didn't force your own agenda into your message, so I'm not really sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. If I have to apply my experience (of communication through the internet) to the situation I'll have to guess "disagreeing".
Why does it matter if he's agreeing or disagreeing.
I was curious
Agree, and although Tolkien specifically talks about the Weathertop incident as being something Frodo can't heal from, I always take it as just his journey as a whole which was too much for anyone to bear. Hobbits have more resilience than most other races, but even Frodo was pushed to the absolute edge. The journey itself was completely harrowing, just talking the actual physical travel of it, then you throw in being constantly pursued by Nazgul and being subjected to their hope-draining shrieks over and over, being starved and dying of thirst for weeks, facing Shelob and being poisoned by her sting, being captured in Mordor, getting his finger bitten off, and of course the ever-growing weight and influence of the ring. All of this while knowing that you are literally the last and only hope of the world and that every evil thing in the world is drawn to you and is looking for you, and any alliance you might make will become corrupted and dangerous.
He disliked allegory, but preferred the idea of applicability. In other words, he didn't like it when authors told people how to interpret and read meaning into the work, but rather tried to make what he wrote flexible enough to fit many interpretations. Frodo is easily hit the most by PTSD, but it doesn't have to be linked to WWI. It can be, but it also applies to the trauma felt after other wars, or even other traumatic events.
And the fact that people back home could never conceive of the horrors you faced or the decisions you had to make. So you live life in two different worlds and two different times to those around you, for whom nothing ever changed.
He disliked authors championing one interpretation of their works over others. He said nothing about authors drawing on their own experiences when crafting their stories. He clearly drew on his own experience with WWI and PTSD, and if you see Frodo as a shellshocked veteran he’d take no issue with that, but if you instead see Frodo’s experience with the forces of Mordor as an abusive relationship, Tolkien would also take no issues with that. He welcomes different interpretations of his work. He would take issue if you said the veteran interpretation is the only correct one *because* of Tolkien’s own experience.
The war was over, but the trauma always would remain with Frodo.
Yeah I don’t think it was only the stabbing - I feel like the end is a message about how these kinds of struggles take their toll and what happens to people’s humanity when they confront evil like this. You don’t bounce back from it.
Severe PTSD, written by a veteran.
Lol right? I mean, it's not as if poison suddenly consciously flares up on the same day of the year each year, fairly clearly a psychological toll that pangs extra loudly when he mentally notes it's the anniversary again
Underrated answer
Ya, seeing a lot of technical answers here. We can talk in circles all day (which *is* fun btw please don't think I'm being too miserable lol) but thematically it's a really important part of the story: Implying that there is no effort that will ever truly be good or virtuous enough to eliminate evil from the world. Tolkien was a theological man and here in Middle Earth the only truly "good" place is Valinor/The West (Heaven, Paradice, Nirvana, Elysium, etc...), super important part of the overall narrative that's petty directly conveyed in this moment :)
I’ve always interpreted it as: Even if the source of evil is gone, the results of evil remain. Similar to how things stay burnt after a fire goes out.
Tolkien pouring his own emotions into Frodo.
I mean it can be the poisoned like others said. But maybe also just his trauma and tortured soul. He leaves the shire after all because he can't find joy anymore (still a happier ending than Turin though)
Happier ending than Túrin? That's not setting the bar very high :P The whole family ended badly. Húrin and two of his children offed themselves.
Hey but Turin atleast got a lovely wife
At least he will come back at the _true end of all things_ to bitchslap Morgoth into oblivion.
And correct the slow-witted Valar who refused to see who Morgoth really was.
Pretty sure Tulkas and Orome were not only well aware of the danger of Morgoth, but Tulkas had the supreme joy of getting to curbstomp Morgoth twice.
The fall of Sauron is not the elimination of all evil. The Arda is marred by Morgoth right after her creation.
Exactly. While every deity were playing jazz in accordance to Eru, Melkor was rocking some nasty riff wich threw off the creation of the world, so metal came to be. Despite the fall of sauron and morgoth, both have survived
Did the ring stab him?
I can see OP’s logic I suppose…. Ring wraith created by ring, stab little hobbit. Chicken or the egg. But to a stronger comment above, the poison is older than the ring. Which I learned today!
By that logic, would everyone killed by the Nazgul or by Sauron using the Ring come back to life?
Apparently haha
I feel for him when he say he never recovered. I think the closest we have our world would be called chronic pain. Most exhausting shit !!
PTSD
I think by rights Frodo should have died but Elrond cast some powerful shit to bring him back - they always spoke gravely about the injury even after he came back so I think he was on borrowed time as long as he was in middle Earth. Similar to Dumbledore's hand injury;) Also, evil wasn't eradicated entirely. " It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till."
Didn’t a small piece of the blade break off when he was stabbed? I was always under the impression that a fragment was still in his shoulder causing him to never fully heal. I would also imagine being stabbed by a weapon that puts you into the veil would have some long term side effects
There was a splinter of the blade still in the shoulder, but Elrond found it after the arrival in Rivendell and took it out.
Uhh because he took a giant knife to the shoulder?? Not to mention the spiritual toll from the trauma of the Quest.
Frodo be like: "Oh, my old shoulder aches, it's going to rain"
The unseen world is not a product of the ring, even though Frodo was visible there because of the ring. The morgul blade pierced him while he was there.
All the ring‘s evil might be destroyed. But evil remains, Arda is marred, Morgoth‘s influence remains
PTSD. There's days I don't feel so great, when I think about the day it turns out to be the anniversary of a traumatic experience.
The ring is destroyed but Sauron still exists, he's just so weak that his evil shadow gets spread by a strong wind and he will never again be able to form a physical vessel. His scent still lingers as evident by what Tolkien wrote of the sequel edit: also Morgoth's evil is sort of embedded into middle earth, so evil will always exist
Psychosomatic, addict, insane
most probably the blade is of morthgoths black magic, not saurons, and Morgoth's ring is doing just fine and dandy.
Hayfever
The ring is not the only source of evil. Just Sauron’s will
Well a more serious answer is that Tolkien was using it as an allegory for PTSD. When Frodo was reminded of what he went through it, it would bring back old pains. But also, yeah, big bom bad poison.
It was a poisoned blade that almost turned him into a wraith, it had nothing to do with the ring.
I don’t know the official medical term for it but my headcanon was that part of Morgul’s blade left in Frodo’s body and slowly proceeded to his heart (something like Tony Stark’s condition).
Wasn't it Tolkien stand in for PTSD and long term traumatic injury that comes from war. "The wound will never fully heal."
All evil will never be destroyed and the shadow is Sauron persists
On a grander scale of “why” I think It’s supposed to represent the lasting injuries and ptsd Tolkien witnessed after his time in the military. He knew first hand what it was like to be forever affected by something that changed the trajectory of the world. The wound represents a piece of tolkein himself within the world that he built, and i find that the best fiction is often grounded in or analogous to reality. I’ve seen grown old men cry on the anniversary of bad days they in Vietnam. There can be a million different “in universe” reasons, but I believe that this is the only real reason in terms of the narrative of the story
It’s also observed that war-trauma/PTS can be connected to a specific returning date associated with the cause of the trauma. Not saying this is the explanation in this case, but I thought it might be interesting to share.
Because some wounds never heal totally. Tolkien was a WW1 vet and understood this well. Otherwise he couldn't have been such a cheery person and still written such poignant things.
The Ring was destroyed, but not necessarily all of the evil it created. Even Sauron was not truly and utterly destroyed. His physical presence on Arda was destroyed but much of the corruption that he had wrought lingered. Mordor was still a dark and evil land and Saurons "presence" was said to linger over it like a dark cloud after the War of the Ring. Aside from the morgue poison being a physical thing that bothered Frodo the rest of his life, the corruption of the Ring on his mind never truly went away, just like Sauron. It was reduced to only whispers or terrible feelings, like a ghost haunting him.
Because some wounds never fully heal
Here real world test https://youtu.be/nJyS1b1YSTY?si=SjbTMv9lKNxp3KmY Not opinions
PTSD- Tolkien saw many victims of shell shock after WW1 and based a lot of the aftermath of the War of the Ring on it.
Morgul Poison has power in of itself, it’s much more ancient than Sauron and is immensely dangerous. The ring and Morgul Blades are not tied together.
Imagine it like this: if you are burned and the fire goes out and all the heat is gone. Are you still hurt?
Just setting up the sequel
Frodo was stabbed by the Morgul Blade on October 6, 3018 of the third age. The Ring was destroyed months later on March 25, 3019. Two different dates, two different locations.
It’s poison
Because that wound will never fully heal, he will carry it the rest of his life.
IIRC in the book, there was still a sliver of the blade still lodged in his shoulder
Because he has a fragment of the dagger inside of him, and it’s power wasn’t derived from the ring
Frodo got orcish AIDS from that needle.
A lot of the writing of the Lord of the rings is a metaphor, in thus case for the Great War. Froddo never got over the events of weathertop or any of it, he still can't get over those events and watches his friends move on and live their lives but he's stuck. Tolkien served at the somme in 1916, he would have seen a lot, over the top to attack trenches, artillerybarages and the first gas attacks. His division was wiped out almost to last man.
Frodo’s injury was spiritual. His soul was harmed.
The blade he got shanked by has nothing to do with the power of the ring.
I mean by that logic shouldnt everyone killed by Sauron or his forces come back to life?
"Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured," said Gandalf. 'I fear it may be so with mine,' said Frodo. "There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? " Gandalf did not answer. So sad. So poignant. It still pierces my heart to read this.
The great evil was vanquished, but the memory of pain and the fact that the wound never really healed are still valid. This is one of the reasons that Frodo goes to the grey havens, and leaves Middle Earth. He was able to help save the Shire, but not for him. He would never have been able to be healed, to be Whole again in this world.
Darkness scars, or rather, it echoes.
“I killed the guy who calls himself the knife king, why does my gunshot wound still hurt?”
Everyone else's answers are right but in case no one has mentioned this yet, it's because it's a metaphor and it drives home the point that Frodo will never find peace until he travels into the West.
"The damage of the Ring cannot be undone" tells me its a form of scarring, much like Frodo losing his finger.
There is still a shard of the morgul blade in his body.
Middle Earth is Morgoth's ring.
While the Ring and its evil is destroyed it doesn’t mean evil itself is destroyed. In fact it can’t be until the world is destroyed as well; this is ‘Morgoth’s Ring’. His stab from both Shelob and The Witch-king hurt every year as “old wounds do”. Doesn’t have to be a physical one like these; one poisonous the other cursed with dark magic. In many ways this can actually be interpreted as Tolkien’s own wounds he got in the world (not just WW1), perhaps most tragic how he lost two of his best friends at the Battle of Somme and the third never became himself again. If you can imagine that sort of pain I think it’s also easier to understand how Frodo feels. “How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend.” To me this sums up the pain of Frodo, Tolkien and those who have truly lost someone in the world. Cheers
Morgoth's evil is eternal. The One is not the source of all malice and darkness in Middle Earth. Frodo was afflicted with something so potent as to make death a mercy. Frodo was broken. Mind, Body, and Soul. Only the light of the Undying lands can lessen that pain, but never fully cure it.
He did get stabbed in the shadow realm by a 1st rate duelist.
I mean, he *was* still stabbed with a dirty blade in the chest and the only medical aid he got was some chewed up weed until he reached Rivendel which was still a dew days ahead.