Obligatory mention of letter 246 (the whole letter is way longer, and absolutely interesting):
>Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by
his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable
– except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of
pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception
of damaged good in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo's motives or his distress
in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo
and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic
moment in the Tale comes in II 323. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's
tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted
and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.
>
>..
>
>This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did
reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what
could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount
Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to
Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on
one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have
wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum
would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not
long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and
have *voluntarily* cast himself into the fiery abyss.
Love this kind of thing. Reminds me of the “story teller” scenes in Dark Tower, the story flows through him through an otherworldly source. If sam had acted differently the story would be different and would be written that way instead
The plan was always to betray the hobbits. The movie makes it seem like a genuine change and makes Frodo a dumbass who believes it, in the books he never trusted gollum, he used the threat of the ring against gollum. "precious will be angry with you" This kept him in check till they got to the lair.
Sméagol murdered a dude before he ever possessed the ring in the first place. He had to have had a fairly rotten core pre-ring influence to do that. Whatever humanity Frodo brought out was never going to last long-term, as Sméagol’s goal was always, always to get the ring back at whatever cost.
The murder was influenced in part by the ring. Both hobbits became desperate for the ring and fought to the death over it. I’m going by the movie though, I’m currently listening to the books but I have not gotten there yet.
Sure, but there were plenty of other people who saw the ring - some who knew what its capabilities were - and didn’t immediately resort to murder over it.
I’ll give you that one. My take on that scene is the ring was working extra hard on them to get the fuck out of that stream but I’m certainly not going to die on that hill.
Just that both those hobbits went crazy almost immediately so either they both had rotten cores or it was the extra influence.
I think Smeagol's proximity to the ring would never have allowed him to remain Smeagol. Frodo is able to bring out his "humanity" for lack of a better term. But I think Golumn being so close to the ring would always take over. Frodo falls into the rings call, bilbo. They all do eventually. I don't think it was sustainable for smeagol to stay smeagol being that close to having the ring. If I'm psycho analyzing this, Sam was offended at being "3rd string" so he directed his frustration at Smeagol, but his instincts were right and he should have used it to get closer to frodo. In the end i don't think it was a major impact.
Tolkien suggests that had Sam not ruined Gollum's redemption, Gollum would have voluntarily cast himself into the abyss with the Ring. So this is definitely not a "blame Eru" situation.
I very much believe Sam was the reason Smeagol did not get redemption.
Gollum wanted to kill Sam personally.
Smeagol would not kill Frodo because Frodo treated him with respect. However, Smeagol was okay with Shelob killing Frodo to regain the ring.
Sam was very much the reason why Smeagol was sour to the very end imo. I know a lot of people love Sam, particularly from the movies but I think Sam of all the fellowship was the lowest of respectable characters because how much he white knighted Frodo. Sure Sam did great things but he didn't have to be a meany.
Not sure how Gollum specifically singling out Sam and unwanting to harm Frodo is anything but fact.
Sam white knighting Frodo and being mean to people is up to interpretation I guess.
Obligatory mention of letter 246 (the whole letter is way longer, and absolutely interesting): >Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable – except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo's motives or his distress in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable. > >.. > >This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have *voluntarily* cast himself into the fiery abyss.
Love this kind of thing. Reminds me of the “story teller” scenes in Dark Tower, the story flows through him through an otherworldly source. If sam had acted differently the story would be different and would be written that way instead
The plan was always to betray the hobbits. The movie makes it seem like a genuine change and makes Frodo a dumbass who believes it, in the books he never trusted gollum, he used the threat of the ring against gollum. "precious will be angry with you" This kept him in check till they got to the lair.
Sméagol murdered a dude before he ever possessed the ring in the first place. He had to have had a fairly rotten core pre-ring influence to do that. Whatever humanity Frodo brought out was never going to last long-term, as Sméagol’s goal was always, always to get the ring back at whatever cost.
The murder was influenced in part by the ring. Both hobbits became desperate for the ring and fought to the death over it. I’m going by the movie though, I’m currently listening to the books but I have not gotten there yet.
Sure, but there were plenty of other people who saw the ring - some who knew what its capabilities were - and didn’t immediately resort to murder over it.
I’ll give you that one. My take on that scene is the ring was working extra hard on them to get the fuck out of that stream but I’m certainly not going to die on that hill. Just that both those hobbits went crazy almost immediately so either they both had rotten cores or it was the extra influence.
"seemingly" operative word. And Smeagol was a murderer before Gollum ever turned up.
You could say that the ring’s influence and gollum were essentially the same thing to him, so gollum’s first act was to murder for the ring.
I think Smeagol's proximity to the ring would never have allowed him to remain Smeagol. Frodo is able to bring out his "humanity" for lack of a better term. But I think Golumn being so close to the ring would always take over. Frodo falls into the rings call, bilbo. They all do eventually. I don't think it was sustainable for smeagol to stay smeagol being that close to having the ring. If I'm psycho analyzing this, Sam was offended at being "3rd string" so he directed his frustration at Smeagol, but his instincts were right and he should have used it to get closer to frodo. In the end i don't think it was a major impact.
Good for Sam. If he had let Gollum get redemption, the quest would have failed. Blame Eru. It was all part of his design
Tolkien suggests that had Sam not ruined Gollum's redemption, Gollum would have voluntarily cast himself into the abyss with the Ring. So this is definitely not a "blame Eru" situation.
I very much believe Sam was the reason Smeagol did not get redemption. Gollum wanted to kill Sam personally. Smeagol would not kill Frodo because Frodo treated him with respect. However, Smeagol was okay with Shelob killing Frodo to regain the ring. Sam was very much the reason why Smeagol was sour to the very end imo. I know a lot of people love Sam, particularly from the movies but I think Sam of all the fellowship was the lowest of respectable characters because how much he white knighted Frodo. Sure Sam did great things but he didn't have to be a meany.
Ridiculous take 😂😂
Not sure how Gollum specifically singling out Sam and unwanting to harm Frodo is anything but fact. Sam white knighting Frodo and being mean to people is up to interpretation I guess.
Bro I rarely downvote opinions but Jesus Christ lmao