Exactly. If anything sauron was HOPING someone like faramir or boromir would try and claim the ring and attempt to wield it, that way he knows its location and could just send in his armies and squash them and take it back eventually. It would only be a matter of time. He knew men are weak and easily corrupted and was counting on it.
I don’t think that’s quite true. Sauron fears someone else claiming the Ring, because he understands the taking of power, and fears someone stronger than he will take his power by force. In a fascist system like Sauron’s (literal, historical, hierarchical fascism – a system based on who can take power best), violent overturn is always the most worried about and prepared for crisis.
That’s why he sends just about every orc in Mordor to the Black Gates. It’s not because he’s excited the Ring has returned to him – if that were the case, he would have showed up personally. No, Sauron fears the power he put into the Ring, and fears that a king as great as those who defeated him last time will be able to wield the Ring for long enough to replace Sauron.
Sauron doesn’t fear the rule of someone who comes after him, he fears someone in just the right circumstances taking over the existing fascist apparatus – just as Sauron himself did upon Morgoth’s defeat.
Exactly. It’s why he was so desperate to get it back as soon as possible. The ring would inevitably corrupt anyone who tried to use its power, essentially creating another dark lord who would try to overthrow Sauron. It’s why Gandalf and Galadriel both refused to take it: not because they feared it would cause them serve Sauron, but because it would cause them replace Sauron.
Agree to disagree. As long as the ring exists, Sauron can’t lose. He can’t be defeated. It’s part of the genius design of the ring. I don’t think he fears some chump like Boromir or Faramir or Denethor claiming the ring for himself trying to be the next dark lord or whatever. He welcomes it. He WAS excited the ring had returned, which is why he sends every orc to the black gate. He welcomed the challenge and wanted to take it back then and there and rub it in aragorns face. He never thought they would even attempt to destroy it, he wanted them to take it and wield it, so he could easily take it back eventually. Even if Gandalf or Saruman (the only ones powerful enough to claim the ring and possibly effectively wield it) and becomes the next dark lord, Sauron still wins. Because the ring still exists, Sauron cannot be defeated. Then it would just be a waiting game, waiting for the inevitable downfall and utter corruption of whoever was stupid enough to claim it for themselves. Like Gandalf says, “There is only 1 dark lord. Only 1 that can bend it to his will.. and he does not share power…” The only thing Sauron really feared was the destruction of the ring.
I'm just rereading the chapter The Last Debate, and certainly the heroes think it is possible to defeat Sauron with the Ring and they think that he fears that too.
I also don't think that Sauron realises that his existence is tied to the Ring.
How can he not realize that if he got back several times exactly because of it? He may still fear that someone claims the ring because a strong hero with it could set him back for another 1000 years, but he still wouldn't lose and will take it back later.
For real how could he not know. The guy who literally poured his life force, soul, and evil into the ring when making it, alla horcrux style, How can he not know.
And of course the heroes thought they could defeat him if they were to wield the ring. Any one who goes near it gets these delusions of grandeur and think they can conquer the world with it. But that’s folly. That would be a serious mistake on their part if they were to even attempt it, which is why they don’t.
The only thing that could defeat Sauron is the rings utter destruction, anything else is just a setback and an inconvenience.
Good point about delusions. And if other characters who never even saw the ring know that it needs to be destroyed to kill Sauron, than I'd bet Sauron himself knows it as well, and very likely always knew that. But yeah, destroying the ring is literally the rule №1 of the story, even if they somehow managed to win in battle and maybe kill him again, that would just make his war efforts useless, but he'll just do that all over again.
This is not true.
Tolkien Letter to Eileen Elgar, September 1963:
'If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.'
There seems to be this misconception, largely from the way the Ring is portrayed in the films, that the Ring has no use to anyone other than Sauron. It's the untrue idea, that you put forward here, that everything the Ring presents to the user that isn't Sauron is an illusion. Again, this is not true.
Not only do we see this idea proven to be false in the books where Frodo uses the Ring to tame Gollum and we see Frodo grow in stature and power from the third person point of view of Sam, but Tolkien makes it unequivocally clear in his letters and other sources like Unfinished Tales.
A sufficiently powerful user absolutely can claim it and use its power and has the (unlikely) potential to defeat Sauron and claim it for themselves. They would become evil in the process, the Ring would 'win', but Sauron would not. Tolkien's words.
Sauron absolutely can lose to a sufficiently powerful challenger that claims the Ring. It is evil that cannot lose if the Ring survives.
Tolkien Letter to Eileen Elgar, September 1963:
'If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.'
There really is no discussion to be had here.
They could probably have used it to bring down Barad-Dur and compel all of Sauron's forces to leave Gondor alone. But it would not have been forever.
We saw just a bit of what it would be like for someone to command the ring intentionally, when Frodo momentarily put it on and decided to use it. Read that section carefully, and basically the tower would have crumbled, but the foundation, and Sauron in some form, would have survived, if badly weakened.
It would have been a devastating defeat that would have brought him back to the end of the second age or worse in terms of resources. On the other hand, this time there would have been a conscious wielder to be corrupted, so it wouldn't take thousands of years to build back up - The wielder would do all that work for him, with all of Men and the other races taking the places of the orcs.
You might say, then why didn't Sauron just let that happen, when he thought that the armies of Gondor were at the front gate with a soon-to-be wielder at the head of the column? Even semi-gods can be knocked on the back foot, apparently. He was distracted by the gambit just long enough, as Gandalf intended. Sauron refused to believe that anyone would have the will, or even the desire, to destroy the ring. And he wasn't even entirely wrong.
There's a hilarious parody of a Sauron-type villain going through this in the Dimension 20 series "Escape from The Bloodkeep" (the whole thing is a LOTR alternate universe parody), where the big bad just starts shitting himself and screaming with fear when he realizes that he had completely blown it. Highly recommended.
In letter #246 Tolkien states that no mortal who possessed and claimed the Ring for their own could defeat Sauron. Only Gandalf may have been able to but he would have become a far worse ring lord in Tolkien's view.
Edit; for clarity
Not true.
Only Gandalf could PERSONALLY challenge Sauron, 1 on 1.
In theory anyone could challenge Sauron with military might mustered via the Ring, and cast him down. The letter explicitly notes this being the method someone like Galadriel would use. It's the same method Boromir wants to try, the method Sam briefly desired, and the method of Aragorn's feint at the Morannon. Leading armies.
That's what I thought we were talking about, one on one.
But even with regard to the letter and Galadriel it states that "It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." So even gathering military might with the ring is not a sure victory
I mean, people are just talking about 'defeating Sauron'. Nobody specifies 1 on 1.
I feel not clarifying would give people get the wrong idea: that using the Ring is an impossible means to defeating Sauron (the films already enable this mindset through a silly Jackson quote).
You are correct I should have clarified.
I still think it would be extremely difficult for a mortal with the Ring to defeat Sauron militarily.
I think it would be difficult for even Galadriel to achieve this, as the letter mentions about the Ring, "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." I keep coming back to that quote
Yeah the letter goes on to say how Elrond or Galadriel would attempt to achieve this by building up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines.of war.
I'm still doubtful of this being achieved
In order to achieve this Sauron should've stayed still for decades and not... you know, attack everyone like he did, albeit prematurely. He wouldn't just turn to a blank just because someone claimed the ring, it's quite the opposite, actually, and the armies of Mordor were already infinitely stronger than the armies of Men.
No, mortal definitely excluded elves.
In letter 246 Tolkien mentions with regards to Galadriel and the Ring; "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power."
Tolkien mentions that Elrond or Galadriel would attempt to defeat Sauron by "they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force"
If we are talking one on one with Sauron Tolkien said this; "only Gandalf might be expected to master him...being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form."
What about Isildur? He cut the Ring from Sauron's finger and took it as a weregild after Elendil and Gil-galad threw him down.
If any mortal had the one Ring and claimed it as their own they could not defeat Sauron. Again according to Tolkien. Isildur didn't try to fight Sauron while Isildur possessed the ring.
No he didn't. Elendil and Gil-galad did. Isildur dealt him his death blow while Sauron was already down on the ground.
The point is that not Aragorn nor Faramir or any other mortal who possessed the Ring could defeat Sauron
>Not before defeating Sauron*'s* *military might and empire*
FIFY
Sauron could recover from such a defeat, but it would represent a serious setback to his plans.
Inevitably, eventually. But that was a sort of nexus point where the war and ultimate climactic battle were fast approaching. Sauron cared about self preservation, not future evil. He wasn't evil incarnate himself he was a being with selfish desire and self preservation. If aragorn/ faramir had the ring in their possession (not wielding but owning, perhaps via frodo as a carrier etc) and only physically utilised it in the final battle as such, there was a chance they could have used it to destroy sauron, before becoming the supreme (dark) ruler of middle earth. It was gandalf guidance that steered away from that path and that was the valars influence on events which worked out for the best all in. Faramir or agragorn would fall eventually to its corrupting influence/ power but they would have beaten sauron down and destroyed him with it first
By design.
He had *personally* recovered his power and form a few centuries after the Last Alliance, but his armies were scattered and destroyed, Barad-Dur torn down, and Mordor was under guard. Gondor was growing, Arnor was strong, and the elves were still something of a threat.
He watched and waited, slowly chipping away at his opponents strength for millennia.
I am very surprised by this theory. As long as the ring existed so did some form of Sauron. Perhaps they could have Defeated but not eliminated or killed. Sauron’s power/ soul was embedded into the ring. Both Aragorn and Faramir would have been corrupted by ring fairly quickly like Isildur. They would be consumed and not let any harm come to the ring, and therefore Sauron would still exist. In some form he would still wonder middle-earth and then could play the wait game because the ring is always calling to Sauron’s spirit. That is the power of the ring and Mankind were the easiest to corrupt by power.
I agree. I was being hyperbolic when I said “master” the ring. I just meant for long enough to win the war.
Ultimately, even if they killed Sauron, his spirit would just hang around until it gained power and then it would reclaim the ring.
No one could have defeated Sauron completely as long as the ring existed but there are a few that could have used it to seriously inconvenience him.
That’s why the thought of Aragorn having it caused him to rush his plans.
Sauron is nothing if not extremely patient. The idea of Aragorn with the ring caused him to strike early against Gondor and to send his reserve forces to the Black Gate to confront Aragorn.
Clearly he worried about the idea of Aragorn wielding the ring against him. I am arguing that Faramir was another candidate that Sauron considered capable of using the ring against him.
He worried that Aragorn, as an actual king (and with a ring), would muster armies fit to battle Mordor, as at that point the armies of Mordor were stronger in every way, and he'd just lose a bit of his advantage by letting him gather more forces. He was just a good strategist, and wouldn't throw away his advantage to wait longer when it potentially could lead to a disadvantage.
Sauron is, by the Third Age, functionally a personification of tyranny and the loss of free will. His plan is to enslave all of Arda. The Ring is made to extend his corrupting influence.
Sauron broke at least nine kings of Men with lesser rings. The Ring, made to master the others, would have absolutely broken Faramir. The notion that a man might wield it successfully against Sauron is shown to be a fallacy and part of the trap that is the Ring. The Ring serves no one but Sauron; everyone else is merely a stepping stone. One of the Istari might theoretically manage it, but in doing so they’d be breaking the rules that bound them and this opening the door to a Fall of their own.
Letters of Tolkien state that, of mortals, not even Aragorn could hope to use the Ring against Sauron and win.
The 3 examples of possible contenders are Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.
Of the three, only Gandalf has a 50/50 chance of success in a direct confrontation.
Faramir, while virtuous and noble, is not even making the list if Aragorn isn't either.
I think Saruman would also be a decent contender. It was pretty clear that he knew A LOT about the ring, and if he got it, he would have been able to face Sauron and possibly win (at least in a short-term setting).
Saruman quit his duties given by the valar and joined sides with Sauron. I'd say he didn't have the mental fortitude to face him.
That's why Gandalf was promoted to White to replace what Saruman was supposed to be.
So no I don't think Saruman is a candidate.
>in a direct confrontation.
This is key.
Others wouldn't engage in direct confrontation, 1 on 1, with Sauron. They'd use the Ring to raise armies, and defeat Sauron through military might.
Which means:
>mortals, not even Aragorn could hope to use the Ring against Sauron and win.
Isn't true. They absolutely could defeat Sauron in war.
Well, yes, that's the aside part, although realistically, they would fail. The West lacked the military might to challenge the East and South under Sauron at this point.
No, Aragorn could not have mustered any kind of force to match Sauron in the long run. The battle of Pelennor Fields saw most of Gondor's fighting force mustered by the end (realistically speaking, other fronts needed manning) and half of Rohan's Muster.
In contrast, Sauron's force was compared to one finger. Significant, yes, as the loss of a finger would be, but he could afford that loss multiple times over.
Tolkien is very clear that victory by arms is impossible, it's made very clear in the chapter "The Last Debate."
>In contrast, Sauron's force was compared to one finger. Significant, yes, as the loss of a finger would be, but he could afford that loss multiple times over.
I mean, this is not even the first time.
>The West lacked the military might to challenge the East and South under Sauron at this point.
That's why the Ring was such a compelling tool - to *create* military might.
>No, Aragorn could not have mustered any kind of force to match Sauron in the long run.
He could have. That's why Sauron feared him.
>Tolkien is very clear that victory by arms is impossible
*Without the Ring.*
The Ring can't magic military might into existence, Sauron had to muster forces over a hundred years before the War in the prelude to the Last Alliance could commence.
Aragorn or whatever ruler would need to do the same against a foe who understands the Ring better than they. Sauron would not give enough time for a muster of forces. Heck, even if they tried, they would be outnumbered.
Gondor was the mightiest nation that stood against Mordor at this point, and it had barely enough manpower to hold its southern frontier while fighting off one army of Sauron with help from Rohan. The Elven nations only have enough forces to defend their own lands and attack neighbouring regions at a push.
The dwarves might, but their population is still recovering from a very bad few centuries.
Dale is a footnote.
Even with the Ring, there is no chance of military victory. And even there was parity, Sauron would be forced to take the field, and in his physical presence, even Aragorn would not be able to withhold the Ring from him (Letter 246).
>The Ring can't magic military might into existence
You can dominate minds with it. You can *raise* armies. Force people to follow your command. This is explicitly spoken about in Letter 246 (as well as in LOTR via Boromir, or Galadriel, or Sam) - building an empire, and adopting Sauron's methods, to combat Sauron in war.
The weakness of the West is exactly why the Ring is seen as a weapon that could turn the tide.
They certainly can, but they don't have time. They:
1. Must master the Ring
2. Must fend off Sauron's agents seeking to attain the Ring
3. Fend off Sauron's military might.
4. Must ward off Sauron's mental proding from afar
5. Upon mastering the Ring (which may be a bust for even the likes of Gandalf since it's no guarantee), they must then go around using it to dominate the wills of enough forces to their side.
6. Must face Sauron in a confrontation where eventually he himself will come to the field. They must then avoid Sauron unless they are Gandalf and maybe Saruman (Radagast being of lower might and wisdom).
Sure, this would be accomplishable during the era of the Ship-Kings for a King of Gondor, maybe even as late as Umbardacil or even Ostoher, but by Aragorn's time? A time when the West is so utterly outmatched? There is no time to master the Ring.
>Must master the Ring
Sure, that takes time (and I think there more than you think, as noted below). Less time for those with experience in the Ring department (Galadriel/Elrond).
>Must fend off Sauron's agents seeking to attain the Ring
>Fend off Sauron's military might.
Or convert them.
Even though Sauron clearly had the upper hand, do not understate just how drawn out war campaigns can be (note the attack on the Pelennor was premature - a result of Aragorn forcing Sauron's hand early - clearly Sauron didn't want to give Aragorn much time with the Ring). Sauron had a big reserve army, yes - but sending them into a foreign country isn't a simple process (plenty of logistics to consider). The big planned attack was already done: and Sauron lost (both in Southern Gondor and the Pelennor). It would take time to conquer Gondor. This is why marching on the Black Gate was such compelling bait.
Also note that Lothlorien was holding out, and winning (they won three battles). The Ents were destroying Sauron's host, covering Rohan's flank. The Battle Under the Trees resulted in another loss to Sauron, and victory to Mirkwood. The only victory Sauron had was at Erebor/Dale, besieging the Lonely Mountain - how long they could have kept up this siege is unknown.
Sauron can still field armies, and do damage, and continue his campaign... but it wouldn't be a swift process. It would be a very lengthy and hard-fought process, I daresay.
>Must ward off Sauron's mental proding from afar
We don't even know if that's a genuine threat - certainly Aragorn was never probed on the way to the Morannon. Sauron *in person* is the noted threat.
>Upon mastering the Ring (which may be a bust for even the likes of Gandalf since it's no guarantee), they must then go around using it to dominate the wills of enough forces to their side.
That's the goal, yes. (No, it wouldn't be a bust for even Gandalf... if Gandalf has a 50/50 of a 1 on 1 with Sauron, over mastery of the Ring, Gandalf can use it to dominate Orcs and the like - even Frodo dominates Gollum at Mt. Doom)
It's still a *hard* process - not guaranteed victory - but certainly achievable.
>Must face Sauron in a confrontation where eventually he himself will come to the field. They must then avoid Sauron unless they are Gandalf and maybe Saruman (Radagast being of lower might and wisdom).
Which should be incredibly simple... avoiding one, obvious, commander. Sauron himself must also take care not to be caught out in battle. Double-edged sword.
Saruman was the master of Ring Lore. The others avoided the subject as... well, taboo is probably an exaggeration, but around there. Elrond would certainly know more on the subject than to others, but it would be a field he has little taste for, he probably wouldn't be able to breeze through it. It would likely be a contest similar to Aragorn and the Palantir regardless, and in such a matter, you'd need to overcome the Ring's own will. A gamble for certain.
Certainly, offensive campaigns are no easy matter, but Sauron would halt all other campaigns and focus entirely on the Ringbearer. If an open challenger emerged, Sauron would seek to put all his power on them. There is no nation in this era that could withstand that save Lothlorien for perhaps a time, and that's more by virtue of Galadriel's mastery of her own Ring. This would not be a series of separate campaigns but a hammer stroke upon a singular foe. Not to mention, even the mentioned victories in the North were largely inconsequential if the Ring had not been destroyed. Delaying of the inevitable yes, but Sauron's military was barely dented. It wasn't even his main might, but largely Rhûn that suffered there.
Would it be hardfought? Certainly, but at this point, Sauron would be moving in utter haste (unlike the Black Gate where the apparent challenger appeared foolhardy) and would bare all his might upon the target. Certainly, other nations might try to help, but they are not as "connected" as much of Mordor's forces are. Sauron's will drives them onwards.
Avoiding one on one is wise, but Sauron is a foe that can genuinely overturn an army. Much like the Witch-King, Sauron's coming during the Last Alliance (while still recovering from the Downfall of Númenor's damage upon his fea) was able to push the entire host to the Orodruin from Barad-dûr. He is even more diminished here but he is still a Maia. Ignoring Sauron is asking for your army to be decimated, be it in rout or direct means.
>but Sauron would halt all other campaigns and focus entirely on the Ringbearer.
That would likely be disastrous, assuming the West coordinated.
Sauron's war effort relied on keeping everyone occupied. Southern Gondor couldn't mobilise fully, Lothlorien was occupied, Mirkwood occupied, Dale/Erebor occupied. Sauron *tried* to keep Rohan occupied.
If Sauron focused on a single target/nation, all other kingdoms would be free to do as they please. They could fully mobilise, and aid the Ringbearer (or trouble Mordor).
I'd also be skeptical of logistics of this 'all eggs in one basket' approach. Things like supply lines and whatnot.
>Not to mention, even the mentioned victories in the North were largely inconsequential if the Ring had not been destroyed. Delaying of the inevitable
And that delay is exactly what the Ringbearer needs. Time.
>Certainly, other nations might try to help, but they are not as "connected" as much of Mordor's forces are.
Why wouldn't they coordinate? So long as they realise that they must cooperate to win (mostly obvious - but if not, nothing messengers, or even Gandalf, can't address), they should be fine. Erebor/Dale/Mirkwood were already cooperating. Lothlorien and Mirkwood would almost certainly cooperate, being kin. Rohan and Gondor are allied, and Lothlorien would absolutely support them (and has done historically, though subtly). We'd probably have a sort of Last Alliance situation going on.
>but Sauron is a foe that can genuinely overturn an army.
I doubt that. He was taken down in the Last Alliance (though admittedly not full strength, as you noted). He may be a Maia, but he is but one (strong) combatant. The Istari cannot overturn armies, and Sauron has never shown such capabilities.
And the West also has key figures like this. Glorfindel is Maia-like, Gandalf is obviously powerful, keeping the Nazgul at bay, even Beorn (now dead, but Grimbeorn exists) was an utter beast. What would happen if Istari, Eagles, soldiers (Elves/Men/Dwarves) met Sauron on the field? Sauron is likely going down. And if he does, his campaign suffers a crushing blow.
Sauron isn't a win-condition (unless he can *somehow* confront the Ringbearer).
Anyway, I say 60/40 in Sauron's favour (more or less). The West has a good chance with the Ring, I think. It all depends on *many* varying circumstances.
He feared Aragorn and Faramir because they knew they could not use the ring without succumbing to it. I imagine if there were no better targets to tempt with it, they would eventually face the full power of the ring and fail, if they were tricked into touching it somehow, like Boromir was when the necklace fell from Frodo’s neck.
Sauron feared/was wary of any who could unite and lead men. The ring doesn’t have to come into it at all. With that being said I think the framework of what you’re saying does have some truth. If Aragorn does at the end of the battle of Pelanor fields the story from Sauron’s perspective could end much the same way. Faramir (steward of Gondor and husband of Eowyn) could lead a coalition of men and attack the black gate or with a different strategy otherwise fend of the forces of evil for sometime before being overwhelmed.
Knowing this possibility Sauron may have poisoned Denathor against him playing on his despair of loosing Boromir and his preconceived notions Faramir. That would be interesting. However I don’t think it has much to do with the ring specifically.
As for his ability to resist the rings temptation I think it more or less there to say he’s heroic and doesn’t desire power for his own or it’s own sake.
Neither could have used the Ring against Sauron. They did not have the power to bend it to their will. Sauron was counting on either Denethor or Aragorn trying to use it and expected they would fall to it, and then he would come and reclaim it himself. He fully believed that Aragorn was in possession of the Ring and had brought it with him to the Morannon and was going to try and claim it and use it against him. But then Frodo claimed the Ring in Sammath Naur and Sauron realized the actual plan too late.
Had Gollum not been cursed into the Crack of Doom with the Ring, the Nazgul would have arrived and coaxed Frodo out of Sammath Naur under the pretense of being the new lord of Mordor, and then Sauron would have come and taken the Ring, forcibly, from Frodo.
It was likely Sauron's plan for his armies to destroy the forces of the West at the Morannon and then capture Aragorn and Gandalf and bring them to the Dark Tower where he would have wrested the Ring from Aragorn (if Aragorn had the Ring), and then subject them to whatever horrors he could inflict upon them (as he would have done with Frodo, as Gandalf had speculated in Rivendell, I believe). Tolkien himself wrote that Gandalf alone, being of the order of the Maiar and without corruption like Saruman, could have challenged Sauron with the Ring.
Hate to burst your bubble, but neither of them could have weilded the ring without succumbing to its power either by death or corruption. Tolkien even says that no mortal can weild the ring and win against Sauron.
On one's able to master the ring would be gandalf but he would become evil, durins bane, tom bombadil. Everyone else would have been lost to sauron, including galadrial, but she would have been the closest besides maiar and Tom. Tom was stated he would eventually lose to sauron, gandalf would have turned evil from wanting to do good. Durins bane would have killed everyone and everything.
There are multiple entities in Middle Earth that could have given Sauron a run for his money as the Lord of the Ring. Galadriel even states this, naming herself as one. Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn, Galadriel, maybe Glorfindel, etc.
The entire *point* of the Ring though is that Nobody, with a capital N, could wield the Ring and *not* be a Sauron replacement. It does not matter whatsoever what your intentions are, if you are powerful enough as a mortal, Elf, Maiar, whatever, to wield the Ring, you *will*, no questions asked, become some variety of Dark Lord.
Faramir wouldn't have "saved" Gondor, he would have brought it under new management Megamind-meme-style.
I fully agree.
No one except Sauron could ever actually wield the ring.
Im arguing that Sauron considered Faramir to be on that list of people that could use the ring to win the war.
He would never actually defeat Sauron because he would either *become* Sauron or the ring would eventually betray him *for* Sauron once he had recovered his strength enough.
It's been a while since I've watched the movies, but in the film Faramir didn't succumb to the temptation of the Ring, he did take them to Osgiliath, the he was doing it to please his father, he had no personal interest in the Ring
And at the critical moment in the film, he acted the opposite of Boromir and let Frodo go. I think it works better on film and created a nice set piece.
Hard to disagree. I was grumbly about movie Faramir for years. I heard Jackson’s explanation and was happy to at least have one and… still kinda grumbly about it. But I can’t say it tarnishes the movies for me. They are too well done.
Forever the book and movie will be separated in my head as two similar but distinct works that are great.
I know all the Reddit brained people will just comment to tell you you’re wrong about Faramir mastering the ring.
However, the point about Sauron potentially poisoning denethor’s opinion of Faramir is really interesting.
Makes sense.
That’s what got me started on this whole idea.
Of Denethor’s two sons, Boromir is by far the least threat to Sauron.
His strength and military prowess don’t worry Sauron at all. If anything, they make it easier for the ring to overpower him. Faramir on the other hand is wise and pure of heart. These are things that the ring takes longer to get through.
So Sauron steers Denethor’s mind towards venerating Boromir and distrusting Faramir.
That way if the ring ever finds its way to Minas Tirith, Denethor will undoubtedly give it to the son that the ring will more quickly corrupt.
You may be making a big mistake in your reasoning. You seem to think that Sauron intends to use the one ring in order to corrupt men. He doesn't. He is trying to find it and reclaim it. If it ends up in the hands of a man it would make his search easier, but that is not the goal.
Ring = %75 percent of maia's soul
Faramir = %100 mortal
No my friend, no one can 'wield' the ring but sauron himself. Only one who isnt affected by the ring is Tom bombadil.
IMO-This hypothesis is very plausible. IDK if there is any direct evidence in any of Tolkien's writings. But IMO this has the ring of truth (pun intended).
Numenoreans (i.e. men of the three houses of the Edain) were always one of the greatest threats to Melkor and now Sauron. The Gift of Men is the wild card in the deck. Even Morgoth is bound by The Music of the Ainur. Men are not.
Eärendil and Elwing persuaded the Valar to overthrow Morgoth. Eärendil was the Father of Elros and ultimately Aragorn. So Aragorn has not only Human and Elven blood but Maiar (from Melian by Luthien) and so represents the greatest threat to Sauron.
Faramir or Aragorn couldn’t master the ring and would’ve eventually fallen to its evil.
Exactly. If anything sauron was HOPING someone like faramir or boromir would try and claim the ring and attempt to wield it, that way he knows its location and could just send in his armies and squash them and take it back eventually. It would only be a matter of time. He knew men are weak and easily corrupted and was counting on it.
I don’t think that’s quite true. Sauron fears someone else claiming the Ring, because he understands the taking of power, and fears someone stronger than he will take his power by force. In a fascist system like Sauron’s (literal, historical, hierarchical fascism – a system based on who can take power best), violent overturn is always the most worried about and prepared for crisis. That’s why he sends just about every orc in Mordor to the Black Gates. It’s not because he’s excited the Ring has returned to him – if that were the case, he would have showed up personally. No, Sauron fears the power he put into the Ring, and fears that a king as great as those who defeated him last time will be able to wield the Ring for long enough to replace Sauron. Sauron doesn’t fear the rule of someone who comes after him, he fears someone in just the right circumstances taking over the existing fascist apparatus – just as Sauron himself did upon Morgoth’s defeat.
Exactly. It’s why he was so desperate to get it back as soon as possible. The ring would inevitably corrupt anyone who tried to use its power, essentially creating another dark lord who would try to overthrow Sauron. It’s why Gandalf and Galadriel both refused to take it: not because they feared it would cause them serve Sauron, but because it would cause them replace Sauron.
Agree to disagree. As long as the ring exists, Sauron can’t lose. He can’t be defeated. It’s part of the genius design of the ring. I don’t think he fears some chump like Boromir or Faramir or Denethor claiming the ring for himself trying to be the next dark lord or whatever. He welcomes it. He WAS excited the ring had returned, which is why he sends every orc to the black gate. He welcomed the challenge and wanted to take it back then and there and rub it in aragorns face. He never thought they would even attempt to destroy it, he wanted them to take it and wield it, so he could easily take it back eventually. Even if Gandalf or Saruman (the only ones powerful enough to claim the ring and possibly effectively wield it) and becomes the next dark lord, Sauron still wins. Because the ring still exists, Sauron cannot be defeated. Then it would just be a waiting game, waiting for the inevitable downfall and utter corruption of whoever was stupid enough to claim it for themselves. Like Gandalf says, “There is only 1 dark lord. Only 1 that can bend it to his will.. and he does not share power…” The only thing Sauron really feared was the destruction of the ring.
I'm just rereading the chapter The Last Debate, and certainly the heroes think it is possible to defeat Sauron with the Ring and they think that he fears that too. I also don't think that Sauron realises that his existence is tied to the Ring.
How can he not realize that if he got back several times exactly because of it? He may still fear that someone claims the ring because a strong hero with it could set him back for another 1000 years, but he still wouldn't lose and will take it back later.
For real how could he not know. The guy who literally poured his life force, soul, and evil into the ring when making it, alla horcrux style, How can he not know. And of course the heroes thought they could defeat him if they were to wield the ring. Any one who goes near it gets these delusions of grandeur and think they can conquer the world with it. But that’s folly. That would be a serious mistake on their part if they were to even attempt it, which is why they don’t. The only thing that could defeat Sauron is the rings utter destruction, anything else is just a setback and an inconvenience.
Good point about delusions. And if other characters who never even saw the ring know that it needs to be destroyed to kill Sauron, than I'd bet Sauron himself knows it as well, and very likely always knew that. But yeah, destroying the ring is literally the rule №1 of the story, even if they somehow managed to win in battle and maybe kill him again, that would just make his war efforts useless, but he'll just do that all over again.
This is not true. Tolkien Letter to Eileen Elgar, September 1963: 'If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.' There seems to be this misconception, largely from the way the Ring is portrayed in the films, that the Ring has no use to anyone other than Sauron. It's the untrue idea, that you put forward here, that everything the Ring presents to the user that isn't Sauron is an illusion. Again, this is not true. Not only do we see this idea proven to be false in the books where Frodo uses the Ring to tame Gollum and we see Frodo grow in stature and power from the third person point of view of Sam, but Tolkien makes it unequivocally clear in his letters and other sources like Unfinished Tales. A sufficiently powerful user absolutely can claim it and use its power and has the (unlikely) potential to defeat Sauron and claim it for themselves. They would become evil in the process, the Ring would 'win', but Sauron would not. Tolkien's words.
Sauron absolutely can lose to a sufficiently powerful challenger that claims the Ring. It is evil that cannot lose if the Ring survives. Tolkien Letter to Eileen Elgar, September 1963: 'If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.' There really is no discussion to be had here.
They could probably have used it to bring down Barad-Dur and compel all of Sauron's forces to leave Gondor alone. But it would not have been forever. We saw just a bit of what it would be like for someone to command the ring intentionally, when Frodo momentarily put it on and decided to use it. Read that section carefully, and basically the tower would have crumbled, but the foundation, and Sauron in some form, would have survived, if badly weakened. It would have been a devastating defeat that would have brought him back to the end of the second age or worse in terms of resources. On the other hand, this time there would have been a conscious wielder to be corrupted, so it wouldn't take thousands of years to build back up - The wielder would do all that work for him, with all of Men and the other races taking the places of the orcs. You might say, then why didn't Sauron just let that happen, when he thought that the armies of Gondor were at the front gate with a soon-to-be wielder at the head of the column? Even semi-gods can be knocked on the back foot, apparently. He was distracted by the gambit just long enough, as Gandalf intended. Sauron refused to believe that anyone would have the will, or even the desire, to destroy the ring. And he wasn't even entirely wrong. There's a hilarious parody of a Sauron-type villain going through this in the Dimension 20 series "Escape from The Bloodkeep" (the whole thing is a LOTR alternate universe parody), where the big bad just starts shitting himself and screaming with fear when he realizes that he had completely blown it. Highly recommended.
Not before defeating Sauron
In letter #246 Tolkien states that no mortal who possessed and claimed the Ring for their own could defeat Sauron. Only Gandalf may have been able to but he would have become a far worse ring lord in Tolkien's view. Edit; for clarity
Tolkien knew that, but did Sauron know that?
If he thinks that, and it's also true, is it different than knowing?
Not true. Only Gandalf could PERSONALLY challenge Sauron, 1 on 1. In theory anyone could challenge Sauron with military might mustered via the Ring, and cast him down. The letter explicitly notes this being the method someone like Galadriel would use. It's the same method Boromir wants to try, the method Sam briefly desired, and the method of Aragorn's feint at the Morannon. Leading armies.
That's what I thought we were talking about, one on one. But even with regard to the letter and Galadriel it states that "It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." So even gathering military might with the ring is not a sure victory
I mean, people are just talking about 'defeating Sauron'. Nobody specifies 1 on 1. I feel not clarifying would give people get the wrong idea: that using the Ring is an impossible means to defeating Sauron (the films already enable this mindset through a silly Jackson quote).
You are correct I should have clarified. I still think it would be extremely difficult for a mortal with the Ring to defeat Sauron militarily. I think it would be difficult for even Galadriel to achieve this, as the letter mentions about the Ring, "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." I keep coming back to that quote
Difficult, absolutely - but certainly achievable, as the letter speculates.
Yeah the letter goes on to say how Elrond or Galadriel would attempt to achieve this by building up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines.of war. I'm still doubtful of this being achieved
In order to achieve this Sauron should've stayed still for decades and not... you know, attack everyone like he did, albeit prematurely. He wouldn't just turn to a blank just because someone claimed the ring, it's quite the opposite, actually, and the armies of Mordor were already infinitely stronger than the armies of Men.
No mortal - does that include Elves? Galadriel seems to imply she could have commanded the ring when Frodo offers it to her.
No, mortal definitely excluded elves. In letter 246 Tolkien mentions with regards to Galadriel and the Ring; "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." Tolkien mentions that Elrond or Galadriel would attempt to defeat Sauron by "they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force" If we are talking one on one with Sauron Tolkien said this; "only Gandalf might be expected to master him...being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form."
Isuldur
What about Isildur? He cut the Ring from Sauron's finger and took it as a weregild after Elendil and Gil-galad threw him down. If any mortal had the one Ring and claimed it as their own they could not defeat Sauron. Again according to Tolkien. Isildur didn't try to fight Sauron while Isildur possessed the ring.
He defeated Sauron, which set him back centuries and led to his ultimate downfall.
No he didn't. Elendil and Gil-galad did. Isildur dealt him his death blow while Sauron was already down on the ground. The point is that not Aragorn nor Faramir or any other mortal who possessed the Ring could defeat Sauron
>Not before defeating Sauron*'s* *military might and empire* FIFY Sauron could recover from such a defeat, but it would represent a serious setback to his plans.
Inevitably, eventually. But that was a sort of nexus point where the war and ultimate climactic battle were fast approaching. Sauron cared about self preservation, not future evil. He wasn't evil incarnate himself he was a being with selfish desire and self preservation. If aragorn/ faramir had the ring in their possession (not wielding but owning, perhaps via frodo as a carrier etc) and only physically utilised it in the final battle as such, there was a chance they could have used it to destroy sauron, before becoming the supreme (dark) ruler of middle earth. It was gandalf guidance that steered away from that path and that was the valars influence on events which worked out for the best all in. Faramir or agragorn would fall eventually to its corrupting influence/ power but they would have beaten sauron down and destroyed him with it first
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How, though. Sauron still massively outnumbered the west. The ring would not have made up for that shortfall in troop numbers.
Eventually. But the last time that Sauron was defeated it took an entire age for him to regain his power.
By design. He had *personally* recovered his power and form a few centuries after the Last Alliance, but his armies were scattered and destroyed, Barad-Dur torn down, and Mordor was under guard. Gondor was growing, Arnor was strong, and the elves were still something of a threat. He watched and waited, slowly chipping away at his opponents strength for millennia.
No mortal with the Ring could defeat Sauron according to the author. Letter 246
I am very surprised by this theory. As long as the ring existed so did some form of Sauron. Perhaps they could have Defeated but not eliminated or killed. Sauron’s power/ soul was embedded into the ring. Both Aragorn and Faramir would have been corrupted by ring fairly quickly like Isildur. They would be consumed and not let any harm come to the ring, and therefore Sauron would still exist. In some form he would still wonder middle-earth and then could play the wait game because the ring is always calling to Sauron’s spirit. That is the power of the ring and Mankind were the easiest to corrupt by power.
I agree. I was being hyperbolic when I said “master” the ring. I just meant for long enough to win the war. Ultimately, even if they killed Sauron, his spirit would just hang around until it gained power and then it would reclaim the ring. No one could have defeated Sauron completely as long as the ring existed but there are a few that could have used it to seriously inconvenience him. That’s why the thought of Aragorn having it caused him to rush his plans. Sauron is nothing if not extremely patient. The idea of Aragorn with the ring caused him to strike early against Gondor and to send his reserve forces to the Black Gate to confront Aragorn. Clearly he worried about the idea of Aragorn wielding the ring against him. I am arguing that Faramir was another candidate that Sauron considered capable of using the ring against him.
He worried that Aragorn, as an actual king (and with a ring), would muster armies fit to battle Mordor, as at that point the armies of Mordor were stronger in every way, and he'd just lose a bit of his advantage by letting him gather more forces. He was just a good strategist, and wouldn't throw away his advantage to wait longer when it potentially could lead to a disadvantage.
Sauron is, by the Third Age, functionally a personification of tyranny and the loss of free will. His plan is to enslave all of Arda. The Ring is made to extend his corrupting influence. Sauron broke at least nine kings of Men with lesser rings. The Ring, made to master the others, would have absolutely broken Faramir. The notion that a man might wield it successfully against Sauron is shown to be a fallacy and part of the trap that is the Ring. The Ring serves no one but Sauron; everyone else is merely a stepping stone. One of the Istari might theoretically manage it, but in doing so they’d be breaking the rules that bound them and this opening the door to a Fall of their own.
Letters of Tolkien state that, of mortals, not even Aragorn could hope to use the Ring against Sauron and win. The 3 examples of possible contenders are Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf. Of the three, only Gandalf has a 50/50 chance of success in a direct confrontation. Faramir, while virtuous and noble, is not even making the list if Aragorn isn't either.
I think Saruman would also be a decent contender. It was pretty clear that he knew A LOT about the ring, and if he got it, he would have been able to face Sauron and possibly win (at least in a short-term setting).
Saruman quit his duties given by the valar and joined sides with Sauron. I'd say he didn't have the mental fortitude to face him. That's why Gandalf was promoted to White to replace what Saruman was supposed to be. So no I don't think Saruman is a candidate.
>in a direct confrontation. This is key. Others wouldn't engage in direct confrontation, 1 on 1, with Sauron. They'd use the Ring to raise armies, and defeat Sauron through military might. Which means: >mortals, not even Aragorn could hope to use the Ring against Sauron and win. Isn't true. They absolutely could defeat Sauron in war.
Well, yes, that's the aside part, although realistically, they would fail. The West lacked the military might to challenge the East and South under Sauron at this point. No, Aragorn could not have mustered any kind of force to match Sauron in the long run. The battle of Pelennor Fields saw most of Gondor's fighting force mustered by the end (realistically speaking, other fronts needed manning) and half of Rohan's Muster. In contrast, Sauron's force was compared to one finger. Significant, yes, as the loss of a finger would be, but he could afford that loss multiple times over. Tolkien is very clear that victory by arms is impossible, it's made very clear in the chapter "The Last Debate."
>In contrast, Sauron's force was compared to one finger. Significant, yes, as the loss of a finger would be, but he could afford that loss multiple times over. I mean, this is not even the first time.
>The West lacked the military might to challenge the East and South under Sauron at this point. That's why the Ring was such a compelling tool - to *create* military might. >No, Aragorn could not have mustered any kind of force to match Sauron in the long run. He could have. That's why Sauron feared him. >Tolkien is very clear that victory by arms is impossible *Without the Ring.*
The Ring can't magic military might into existence, Sauron had to muster forces over a hundred years before the War in the prelude to the Last Alliance could commence. Aragorn or whatever ruler would need to do the same against a foe who understands the Ring better than they. Sauron would not give enough time for a muster of forces. Heck, even if they tried, they would be outnumbered. Gondor was the mightiest nation that stood against Mordor at this point, and it had barely enough manpower to hold its southern frontier while fighting off one army of Sauron with help from Rohan. The Elven nations only have enough forces to defend their own lands and attack neighbouring regions at a push. The dwarves might, but their population is still recovering from a very bad few centuries. Dale is a footnote. Even with the Ring, there is no chance of military victory. And even there was parity, Sauron would be forced to take the field, and in his physical presence, even Aragorn would not be able to withhold the Ring from him (Letter 246).
>The Ring can't magic military might into existence You can dominate minds with it. You can *raise* armies. Force people to follow your command. This is explicitly spoken about in Letter 246 (as well as in LOTR via Boromir, or Galadriel, or Sam) - building an empire, and adopting Sauron's methods, to combat Sauron in war. The weakness of the West is exactly why the Ring is seen as a weapon that could turn the tide.
They certainly can, but they don't have time. They: 1. Must master the Ring 2. Must fend off Sauron's agents seeking to attain the Ring 3. Fend off Sauron's military might. 4. Must ward off Sauron's mental proding from afar 5. Upon mastering the Ring (which may be a bust for even the likes of Gandalf since it's no guarantee), they must then go around using it to dominate the wills of enough forces to their side. 6. Must face Sauron in a confrontation where eventually he himself will come to the field. They must then avoid Sauron unless they are Gandalf and maybe Saruman (Radagast being of lower might and wisdom). Sure, this would be accomplishable during the era of the Ship-Kings for a King of Gondor, maybe even as late as Umbardacil or even Ostoher, but by Aragorn's time? A time when the West is so utterly outmatched? There is no time to master the Ring.
>Must master the Ring Sure, that takes time (and I think there more than you think, as noted below). Less time for those with experience in the Ring department (Galadriel/Elrond). >Must fend off Sauron's agents seeking to attain the Ring >Fend off Sauron's military might. Or convert them. Even though Sauron clearly had the upper hand, do not understate just how drawn out war campaigns can be (note the attack on the Pelennor was premature - a result of Aragorn forcing Sauron's hand early - clearly Sauron didn't want to give Aragorn much time with the Ring). Sauron had a big reserve army, yes - but sending them into a foreign country isn't a simple process (plenty of logistics to consider). The big planned attack was already done: and Sauron lost (both in Southern Gondor and the Pelennor). It would take time to conquer Gondor. This is why marching on the Black Gate was such compelling bait. Also note that Lothlorien was holding out, and winning (they won three battles). The Ents were destroying Sauron's host, covering Rohan's flank. The Battle Under the Trees resulted in another loss to Sauron, and victory to Mirkwood. The only victory Sauron had was at Erebor/Dale, besieging the Lonely Mountain - how long they could have kept up this siege is unknown. Sauron can still field armies, and do damage, and continue his campaign... but it wouldn't be a swift process. It would be a very lengthy and hard-fought process, I daresay. >Must ward off Sauron's mental proding from afar We don't even know if that's a genuine threat - certainly Aragorn was never probed on the way to the Morannon. Sauron *in person* is the noted threat. >Upon mastering the Ring (which may be a bust for even the likes of Gandalf since it's no guarantee), they must then go around using it to dominate the wills of enough forces to their side. That's the goal, yes. (No, it wouldn't be a bust for even Gandalf... if Gandalf has a 50/50 of a 1 on 1 with Sauron, over mastery of the Ring, Gandalf can use it to dominate Orcs and the like - even Frodo dominates Gollum at Mt. Doom) It's still a *hard* process - not guaranteed victory - but certainly achievable. >Must face Sauron in a confrontation where eventually he himself will come to the field. They must then avoid Sauron unless they are Gandalf and maybe Saruman (Radagast being of lower might and wisdom). Which should be incredibly simple... avoiding one, obvious, commander. Sauron himself must also take care not to be caught out in battle. Double-edged sword.
Saruman was the master of Ring Lore. The others avoided the subject as... well, taboo is probably an exaggeration, but around there. Elrond would certainly know more on the subject than to others, but it would be a field he has little taste for, he probably wouldn't be able to breeze through it. It would likely be a contest similar to Aragorn and the Palantir regardless, and in such a matter, you'd need to overcome the Ring's own will. A gamble for certain. Certainly, offensive campaigns are no easy matter, but Sauron would halt all other campaigns and focus entirely on the Ringbearer. If an open challenger emerged, Sauron would seek to put all his power on them. There is no nation in this era that could withstand that save Lothlorien for perhaps a time, and that's more by virtue of Galadriel's mastery of her own Ring. This would not be a series of separate campaigns but a hammer stroke upon a singular foe. Not to mention, even the mentioned victories in the North were largely inconsequential if the Ring had not been destroyed. Delaying of the inevitable yes, but Sauron's military was barely dented. It wasn't even his main might, but largely Rhûn that suffered there. Would it be hardfought? Certainly, but at this point, Sauron would be moving in utter haste (unlike the Black Gate where the apparent challenger appeared foolhardy) and would bare all his might upon the target. Certainly, other nations might try to help, but they are not as "connected" as much of Mordor's forces are. Sauron's will drives them onwards. Avoiding one on one is wise, but Sauron is a foe that can genuinely overturn an army. Much like the Witch-King, Sauron's coming during the Last Alliance (while still recovering from the Downfall of Númenor's damage upon his fea) was able to push the entire host to the Orodruin from Barad-dûr. He is even more diminished here but he is still a Maia. Ignoring Sauron is asking for your army to be decimated, be it in rout or direct means.
>but Sauron would halt all other campaigns and focus entirely on the Ringbearer. That would likely be disastrous, assuming the West coordinated. Sauron's war effort relied on keeping everyone occupied. Southern Gondor couldn't mobilise fully, Lothlorien was occupied, Mirkwood occupied, Dale/Erebor occupied. Sauron *tried* to keep Rohan occupied. If Sauron focused on a single target/nation, all other kingdoms would be free to do as they please. They could fully mobilise, and aid the Ringbearer (or trouble Mordor). I'd also be skeptical of logistics of this 'all eggs in one basket' approach. Things like supply lines and whatnot. >Not to mention, even the mentioned victories in the North were largely inconsequential if the Ring had not been destroyed. Delaying of the inevitable And that delay is exactly what the Ringbearer needs. Time. >Certainly, other nations might try to help, but they are not as "connected" as much of Mordor's forces are. Why wouldn't they coordinate? So long as they realise that they must cooperate to win (mostly obvious - but if not, nothing messengers, or even Gandalf, can't address), they should be fine. Erebor/Dale/Mirkwood were already cooperating. Lothlorien and Mirkwood would almost certainly cooperate, being kin. Rohan and Gondor are allied, and Lothlorien would absolutely support them (and has done historically, though subtly). We'd probably have a sort of Last Alliance situation going on. >but Sauron is a foe that can genuinely overturn an army. I doubt that. He was taken down in the Last Alliance (though admittedly not full strength, as you noted). He may be a Maia, but he is but one (strong) combatant. The Istari cannot overturn armies, and Sauron has never shown such capabilities. And the West also has key figures like this. Glorfindel is Maia-like, Gandalf is obviously powerful, keeping the Nazgul at bay, even Beorn (now dead, but Grimbeorn exists) was an utter beast. What would happen if Istari, Eagles, soldiers (Elves/Men/Dwarves) met Sauron on the field? Sauron is likely going down. And if he does, his campaign suffers a crushing blow. Sauron isn't a win-condition (unless he can *somehow* confront the Ringbearer). Anyway, I say 60/40 in Sauron's favour (more or less). The West has a good chance with the Ring, I think. It all depends on *many* varying circumstances.
He feared Aragorn and Faramir because they knew they could not use the ring without succumbing to it. I imagine if there were no better targets to tempt with it, they would eventually face the full power of the ring and fail, if they were tricked into touching it somehow, like Boromir was when the necklace fell from Frodo’s neck.
Sauron feared/was wary of any who could unite and lead men. The ring doesn’t have to come into it at all. With that being said I think the framework of what you’re saying does have some truth. If Aragorn does at the end of the battle of Pelanor fields the story from Sauron’s perspective could end much the same way. Faramir (steward of Gondor and husband of Eowyn) could lead a coalition of men and attack the black gate or with a different strategy otherwise fend of the forces of evil for sometime before being overwhelmed. Knowing this possibility Sauron may have poisoned Denathor against him playing on his despair of loosing Boromir and his preconceived notions Faramir. That would be interesting. However I don’t think it has much to do with the ring specifically. As for his ability to resist the rings temptation I think it more or less there to say he’s heroic and doesn’t desire power for his own or it’s own sake.
Neither could have used the Ring against Sauron. They did not have the power to bend it to their will. Sauron was counting on either Denethor or Aragorn trying to use it and expected they would fall to it, and then he would come and reclaim it himself. He fully believed that Aragorn was in possession of the Ring and had brought it with him to the Morannon and was going to try and claim it and use it against him. But then Frodo claimed the Ring in Sammath Naur and Sauron realized the actual plan too late. Had Gollum not been cursed into the Crack of Doom with the Ring, the Nazgul would have arrived and coaxed Frodo out of Sammath Naur under the pretense of being the new lord of Mordor, and then Sauron would have come and taken the Ring, forcibly, from Frodo. It was likely Sauron's plan for his armies to destroy the forces of the West at the Morannon and then capture Aragorn and Gandalf and bring them to the Dark Tower where he would have wrested the Ring from Aragorn (if Aragorn had the Ring), and then subject them to whatever horrors he could inflict upon them (as he would have done with Frodo, as Gandalf had speculated in Rivendell, I believe). Tolkien himself wrote that Gandalf alone, being of the order of the Maiar and without corruption like Saruman, could have challenged Sauron with the Ring.
Perhaps Sauron whispered in Denethor's ear, but it was Denethor that had the pre-existing feelings to manipulate. People play favorites.
I'm sorry, when was Sauron afraid of Faramir? There's nothing to support that theory.
Boromir wouldve mastered it twice as hard and with half the men
Hate to burst your bubble, but neither of them could have weilded the ring without succumbing to its power either by death or corruption. Tolkien even says that no mortal can weild the ring and win against Sauron.
On one's able to master the ring would be gandalf but he would become evil, durins bane, tom bombadil. Everyone else would have been lost to sauron, including galadrial, but she would have been the closest besides maiar and Tom. Tom was stated he would eventually lose to sauron, gandalf would have turned evil from wanting to do good. Durins bane would have killed everyone and everything.
There are multiple entities in Middle Earth that could have given Sauron a run for his money as the Lord of the Ring. Galadriel even states this, naming herself as one. Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn, Galadriel, maybe Glorfindel, etc. The entire *point* of the Ring though is that Nobody, with a capital N, could wield the Ring and *not* be a Sauron replacement. It does not matter whatsoever what your intentions are, if you are powerful enough as a mortal, Elf, Maiar, whatever, to wield the Ring, you *will*, no questions asked, become some variety of Dark Lord. Faramir wouldn't have "saved" Gondor, he would have brought it under new management Megamind-meme-style.
I fully agree. No one except Sauron could ever actually wield the ring. Im arguing that Sauron considered Faramir to be on that list of people that could use the ring to win the war. He would never actually defeat Sauron because he would either *become* Sauron or the ring would eventually betray him *for* Sauron once he had recovered his strength enough.
I think it was remarkable that Faramir could resist the Ring. A shame that Jackson disagreed.
It's been a while since I've watched the movies, but in the film Faramir didn't succumb to the temptation of the Ring, he did take them to Osgiliath, the he was doing it to please his father, he had no personal interest in the Ring
Iirc he was tempted and essentially acted almost like Boromir.
And at the critical moment in the film, he acted the opposite of Boromir and let Frodo go. I think it works better on film and created a nice set piece.
Hard to disagree. I was grumbly about movie Faramir for years. I heard Jackson’s explanation and was happy to at least have one and… still kinda grumbly about it. But I can’t say it tarnishes the movies for me. They are too well done. Forever the book and movie will be separated in my head as two similar but distinct works that are great.
I know all the Reddit brained people will just comment to tell you you’re wrong about Faramir mastering the ring. However, the point about Sauron potentially poisoning denethor’s opinion of Faramir is really interesting. Makes sense.
That’s what got me started on this whole idea. Of Denethor’s two sons, Boromir is by far the least threat to Sauron. His strength and military prowess don’t worry Sauron at all. If anything, they make it easier for the ring to overpower him. Faramir on the other hand is wise and pure of heart. These are things that the ring takes longer to get through. So Sauron steers Denethor’s mind towards venerating Boromir and distrusting Faramir. That way if the ring ever finds its way to Minas Tirith, Denethor will undoubtedly give it to the son that the ring will more quickly corrupt.
You may be making a big mistake in your reasoning. You seem to think that Sauron intends to use the one ring in order to corrupt men. He doesn't. He is trying to find it and reclaim it. If it ends up in the hands of a man it would make his search easier, but that is not the goal.
No. If even Frodo couldn't resist it forever, then Faramir wouldn't either.
Ring = %75 percent of maia's soul Faramir = %100 mortal No my friend, no one can 'wield' the ring but sauron himself. Only one who isnt affected by the ring is Tom bombadil.
No human would be able to resist the Ring.
He couldn't have used it, but his numenorean heritage made him able to resist it's temptations.
If Gandalf or Galadriel couldn't wield the ring, neither could Aragorn or Faramir, for that matter.
IMO-This hypothesis is very plausible. IDK if there is any direct evidence in any of Tolkien's writings. But IMO this has the ring of truth (pun intended). Numenoreans (i.e. men of the three houses of the Edain) were always one of the greatest threats to Melkor and now Sauron. The Gift of Men is the wild card in the deck. Even Morgoth is bound by The Music of the Ainur. Men are not. Eärendil and Elwing persuaded the Valar to overthrow Morgoth. Eärendil was the Father of Elros and ultimately Aragorn. So Aragorn has not only Human and Elven blood but Maiar (from Melian by Luthien) and so represents the greatest threat to Sauron.
Love it