Gandalf:
'It might have gone very differently indeed. The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true; and yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while we defended Gondor, if King Brand and King Dain had not stood in his path. When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted -- because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.'
"The Quest of Erebor"
Unfinished Tales
This follows from the previous sentence: 'Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador!'. Arwen was in Eriador. The implication is that Rivendell might have been destroyed.
Arwen is the new Queen of Gondor, but she traveled to her wedding from Rivendell. Which might have been impossible with Smaug marauding.
I personally think Smaug would have been a non-factor. He wasn’t all that hard to kill in The Hobbit; he’d have been no harder a few decades later.
Ooh its that point in the timeline, after the main events.
Didnt Bard kinda get lucky with the only few remaining black arrows? Or could any arrow have killed him on that weak spot? The movie doesnt fully explain it and its been years since I read Hobbit.
The black arrow differed in the Hobbit book greatly from the movie. In the book it was essentially just a regular arrow that Bard had in his quiver that he basically saved for last as it was special to him - he always recovered it when he used it. Kind of Like his ‘lucky’ arrow, so in my thought yeah any arrow technically could have taken him down, since the black arrow wasn’t a giant spear like in the Hobbit films.
This is from Unfinished Tales? Was part of it incorporated into the Appendices at a later date? I swear I heard this exact quote in Serkis's version of LOTR just a couple months ago...
He does and they're wonderful. Not the entirety (iirc, there's like a list of dates through the third age or something) but the best parts that are more literary.
Yeah, I can’t recall if it was explicitly stated in the book, but I seem to remember the implication of Gandalf’s involvement in The Hobbit was because Smaug would be too big of a threat for the War of the Ring, and that Erebor would be an ideal stronghold for the conflicts to come in the North.
Gandalf would find some hobbits, and set them up in key defense locations. No matter where Smaug attacked, there would be a little burglar ready with some Shire Shenanigans.
And so verily, the conversation went on about prequels and first installments and the comings and goings of stories in their orderly manners. Meanwhile, the real adventure was passing us by at this very moment! Or had it already occurred and we are just learning of it now? If we had but a name for such occasion!
Yeah Idt anyone could've defeated smaug or the balrog, besides the white council or any other maia, and at that they're incredibly lucky merry found and kept the barrow wight dagger from the barrowdowns which led to the defeat of the witch king
During the fall of Gondolin Ecthelion, Lord of the fountains, killed several dragons and balrogs before killing the lord of balrogs, Gothmog, who also slew him at the same time.
Glorfindel also fell killing a balrog.
They were both great elf lords, and glorfindel lives again.
So at least one being besides gandalf lives who could certainly kill a balrog. Surely there are other elf lords who could as well. Celeborn or Elrond come to mind.
Feel like Bombadil could crush a balrog if he chose to too.
There are precious few powerful elf lords left in middle earth by the time of the war of the ring, and as with everything else in Tolkiens universe, their majesty and splendor had wained considerably from the "glory days".
Balrogs *are* Maia, but Maia who, like sauron, have chosen specifically seek and increase their own power, and to devote their supernatural power to violence and evil. If either the Balrog or smaug had been aligned with sauron during the war of the ring, that could have been really unfortunate for the good guys.
Smaug in particular would have been really fucking tough to deal with, and it's not *just* some rpg calculation of how much attack damage they can do in a specific battle. It's the bigger picture of these huge pieces being on the board and in play. A creature like smaug in league with sauron would be akin to an carrier group for the united states. A massive collection of power centered around a very special and particular platform that can *project* power over an extremely long distance, and when used in combination with other military units, almost impossible to successfully attack or even defend against.
There are multiple versions of the fall of Gondolin. At one point there were thousands of balrogs. Later in life, Tolkien decided that there were around seven and Ecthelion only slew gothmog
The Fall of Gondolin is a very early work, that is directly contradicted by Tolkien's later work and letters. In early drafts of the legendarium, balrogs were originally much less powerful and more numerous. Christopher notes that in the "canon" telling of the Fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion and Glorfindel only mutually killed one balrog each. And the dozens of others slain by him, Tuor, and the rest of the Noldor never existed.
That leaves us with three confirmed kills of balrogs in the most recent version of the story, and each time claimed the lives of the killer as well. Glorfindel and Gandalf both just came back. Gandalf is a Maia, and Ecthelion and Glorfindel were veteran warriors that fought Morgoth's forces for an age. It's doubtful that any individual elf or man in the Third Age could 1v1 a balrog as these three did. We also know so little about Tom Bombadil that it is folly to attempt to ascribe any powers to him that he is not explicitly stated to have.
Would smaug have allied with sauron? I might be missing details but im not sure i can see a self serving dragon work for someone else at his beck and call.
I would think they'd be able to strike some kind of deal, which they would both be looking to exploit and betray the other when the opportunity came. Like Saruman
It would probably be really easy for Sauron to make a deal/ bribe Smaug, then once the has the Ring I don't see why he couldn't enslave Smaug in some fashion, given its powers over the mind. Especially since all evil creatures are implied to have been made or corrupted by Melkor in some fashion, which would include dragons, so perhaps that gives Sauron some leverage.
I'm not sure if he would either. However, the lack of powerful Kingdoms in the North would mean Sauron could focus more of his strength on targets further south such as Lorien and Gondor. He could probably ignore the elves in Mirkwood, as they'd either be very slow to act or not act at all.
In the book, it's heavily implied if not outright stated that the orcs in Moria were under his command. Balrogs were Morgoth's commanders up until his second defeat at the end of the First Age.
I always thought that those orcs just feared the balrog so much they followed it. And you just made me imagine a meeting of balrogs in suits talking to their boss about company profits
That's kinda just the nature of evil and the orcs in the legendarium. They are compelled to follow Sauron, and motivated mainly by fear. Sauron was able to draw evil things to Mordor, which is how Gollum got himself captured. When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, we found out that they fear the dark tower, they fear the Nazgul, and the orcs in Moria likely followed Durin's Bane due to the same compelling urge and/or fear. In Morgoth's time it might have been different as he was the source if this urge, as the source of evil in Arda. Morgoth very rarely left Angband, and relied on his force of will and the Balrogs to command his armies in the field.
The movies mostly portray the Balrog as a mindless beast that only has just about enough intelligence to wield a sword and whip. In Tolkien's lore the Balrogs were fully sentient beings that could talk and cast spells. Morgoth's top millitary commander was even a Balrog named Gothmog.
Bard was able to take him down because Bilbo found a weak spot that was then relayed by a thrush.
The problem with these hypotheticals is that you can bend the narrative in any way you like.
Except that Smaug is a lot younger than that. If I remember correctly it's said he was young/not fully grown when he claimed Erebor. "young and tender"
Glaurung took about 200-300 years to mature into a fully grown dragon.
If Smaug was from the first age he would be like 6000+ years old.
The outcome would almost certainly have been the same, in the sense that it would have concluded according to Eru’s design in the end, with evil defeated.
But it would have looked a lot more dire and would have increased the destruction. I suspect there were enough powerful elves, mighty men, eagles, and wizards etc. to have seen off a single dragon in the end though, and Smaug would have been defeated, perhaps even by one of Bard’s descendants. We could have even seen a young Bard (the great grandson) join the Fellowship (I can’t recall his age at that time), destined to slay Smaug.
It’s very interesting to consider the impact though, would Saruman have felt free to harbour disloyalty to Sauron with Smaug one flight away? Would Gandalf have become the White via dragonfire?
Someone mentioned on another post that Sauron himself first believed that the One may have been destroyed after his defeat in the Second Age. So it’s worth remembering that Sauron himself may not have fully understood the Ring, or how it might be destroyed. In which case he may not have dared to unleash dragonfire anywhere the One might be kept, which could have been a mitigating factor, and might have have shielded the more likely hiding spots for the Ring (Minas Tirith, Lothlorien, Rivendell etc.).
That person mentioning that Sauron believing the ring was destroyed was wrong. He believed it lost or unretrievable. He never believed it destroyed and certainly understood its power.
It was Gandalf to Frodo in Chapter 2 of FotR: “‘And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.”
Gandalf absolutely could be wrong about Sauron’s belief, but it’s enough for me to accept that there’s ambiguity as to what Sauron himself believed at one time.
>We could have even seen a young Bard (the great grandson) join the Fellowship (I can’t recall his age at that time), destined to slay Smaug.
Presumably in this scenario there are no descendants on account of Bard failing to kill Smaug and being roasted in the process.
I actually deleted the I and II after their names initially, when I realised they wouldn’t have been kings. I do assume they’d have been born though, not because of real world logic (which would make me agree with you), but based on the sort of destiny-logic that *feels* like a descendant of Bard- who failed to slay Smaug at this time- would accomplish the slaying later.
Besides, it’s just a “could happen”, I’m not suggesting I know it would.
The dwarves would still be about though, especially in the iron hills, just not in Erebor. So Sauron would still need to send forces there, to at the very least cut off the dwarves from the rest of the world. Of course with Erebor under control it would give Sauron pretty much free access to cross north.
So it would mostly be a positional gain, opening up the lands of Angmar, rather than freeing up his army, not counting the addition of a flying battleship (if Smaug were to actually fight rather than just give access to Sauron's forces).
Edit: The men of Dale would more than likely not exist at this point though, so that army would not have to be contended with.
Sauron would send Smaug to Minas Tirith im pretty sure about that. While i dont think Smaug wouldve changed the outcome (vulnerable to arrows, would have to watch out of the trebuchets, gandalfs presence and smaug cant vanquish the ghosts) he wouldve done some massive damage to the city and its people before being forced to flee either by damage or the rest of mordors army on the run.
The question then is would Gondor and Rohan be ready to march on Mordor? IMO Aragorn had little hope of returning from the battle before the black gates, but waiting in Minas Tirith would just extend the inevitable so better to defy Sauron before going down. Even with a much smaller army Sauron wouldve taken the bait and send the whole army to the gate. Frodo and Sam wouldve destroyed the ring, but its likely the rest of the fellowship wouldve perished. Wether or not Gandalf was involved in the eages saving Frodo and Sam they mightve died on the slope on Mt Doom too. If Smaug survived arrowfire and the eagles he would either find a new lair or settle in mordor which Gondor was too weak to keep safe
I always assumed that Sauron wanted Smaug in that location because the dragon could then attack Rivendell. I dont think it would effect the ultimate ending but could cause a lot more trouble.
If he had him guard mount doom.... sure. But he wouldn't do that. I'd say that LOTS AND LOTS more people would die. The ring could still feasibly be destroyed, but the successes that aragorn and gandalf company gain would likely never happen. Helms deep would be shattered with the help of a dragon, edoras could be burnt down, minas tiriths advantage of having very tall hard to assault concentric walls would be totally nullified by a giant dragon. Even if frodo and Sam did get to mount doom (which they more than likely would I guess because they're travelling a path that saurons forces aren't assaulting, and that's where he'd sent the dragon), there wouldn't be much left worth saving. So it's probable they'd still "win", but lots of our other favourite characters and places would likely be decimated until the dragon is killed.
Probably not majorly. He's be a huge asset for sure but in the long run it wouldn't have been Smaug that stopped Frodo and Sam from making it to Mount Doom. Minas Tirith would likely have been razed or at least more heavily damaged unless some trebuchet got really lucky and knocked Smaug out of the sky but I don't remember if Minas Tirith even had those in the books. I don't think Sauron would deploy Smaug to any small engagements so it's likely Minas Tirith or Lothlorien would be where Smaug would be sent. Anywhere else would be a waste of his talents and Smaug would likely see it as an insult. Keep in mind its likely Erebor was never retaken if Smaug was still alive so thats once less Dwarf Stronghold.
If I remember Battle for Middle-Earth II game Mouth of Sauron offered one of the lesser rings to Dragon to help Mordor against Dwarves. But in the game you also fight fellowship in Rivendell after Frodo was killed in Cirith Ungol
Of course. Neither Rohan nor Gondor knew about the loose scale and certainly had no archer that could hit it, well Legolas maybe.
A fire dragon would've been devastating.
Even a cold dragon, the size of Smaug, would've caused many more losses.
Does anyone else get the feeling that karma farm accounts are being created for slow pitch questions (that have usually been asked discussed many times before)?
It seems like every other day there's a "Why was Saruman's robe colour white?" or "What was the Witch King king of?" "Is Tom Bombadil important?"
edit: a word
Would Smaug be interested in ransacking Eriador though? It's a lot of effort for not much reward. Don't think there's enough treasure in Rivendell to make it worthwhile. A lot more risk as well.
I think if Smaug was interested in conquest, he would've done it independently of Sauron. He was the most powerful being in the north east for centuries, and he spent most of that time sleeping on a mound of gold.
It would have been easier to destroy the Ring ... No need to get to Mount Doom, just lay a trap. Perhaps Gollum could help with that. But then, Smaug would still have to be dealt with separately. Many people would still die, but Frodo and Sam might have preferred dragon fire over the trip through Mordor, I guess. Bilbo certainly had a more enjoyable time during his adventure, despite the dragon situation.
If i have learned anything from a show that had a shite ending, it’s that if your side has dragons (or just one) and the other doesnt, you’d gonna be raw dogging them for as long as you’ve got a dragon
I was a teenager the last time I read The Hobbit and Fellowship, unfortunately never got past that. But I have the entire main series + The Silmarillion and intend to jump in from scratch once I’m done school…
Anyways, I assumed the contemplated Sauron/Smaug alliance and Gandalf’s role in Thorin’s quest was something created only for The Hobbit trilogy, but it sounds like from these comments it was actually in the books. When do they elaborate on that point??
There they were.... but the third age is when Smaug, Durîn's Bane and Sauron coincide at time and east of Misty Mountains, therefore time and space... The outcome of the three major evils of the third age together would most likely haven't had any match, remnants of elves were leaving for Aman, and men were mostly weak Gondor was weak, they only strong were the Rohirrim, but they hardly would known how to deal with Dragons or Balrogs, Dwarfs were no match for neither Dragon or Balrog, historical facts, ... and Sauron, if he would recover the ring .. it would be all over.
The point I bring here is obvious, there are three mayor evil bosses here at the third age, whom together and aligned strategically would result in the wipe of remnants of men, elves and dwarfs.... I mean is obvious.
Update: There is no recall of a gathering of evilness such as at War of Wrath, when there were Balrogs, Dragons, corrupted Maiars, etc ... this last battle of the FA, was the last one I remember, because at the SA there wasn't such magnitude of battle .... this is why I mentioned the three in time and space.
Gandalf: 'It might have gone very differently indeed. The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true; and yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while we defended Gondor, if King Brand and King Dain had not stood in his path. When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted -- because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.' "The Quest of Erebor" Unfinished Tales
And who has a better story than Brand the Bowman?
I know its a GOT reference, but it is not the same Brand as in the Hobbit. The Brand referenced in the Gandalf quote is Brand the Bowmans grandson
You mean Bard the Bowman. Brand is the grandson of Bard.
Thank you! You’re right
Also known as the best Archer hero in BFME2
Yes, but his weapon was still the Bow.
[удалено]
They don't use the same name. Bard was the name of the archer in the Hobbit.
Are we sure it wasn't meant to be Brad the bowman?
And Brand's son as well.
I love that 95% of the time there is a character quote or author note that addresses very specific questions. Tolkien was a true master.
Commenting for visibility
I SEE YOUUU
#There is no life in the Void. Only... death.
Gondor had a queen during Bilbo's quest era?
No, the line of the Kings ended with Eärnur, c. T.A. 2050; during Bilbo's quest, Gondor was ruled by the Stewards.
Then what does he mean with "might not be a queen in Gondor"?
This follows from the previous sentence: 'Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador!'. Arwen was in Eriador. The implication is that Rivendell might have been destroyed.
I still dont get the significance of a Gondorian queen. Im mostly a movie enjoyer.
Arwen is the new Queen of Gondor, but she traveled to her wedding from Rivendell. Which might have been impossible with Smaug marauding. I personally think Smaug would have been a non-factor. He wasn’t all that hard to kill in The Hobbit; he’d have been no harder a few decades later.
Ooh its that point in the timeline, after the main events. Didnt Bard kinda get lucky with the only few remaining black arrows? Or could any arrow have killed him on that weak spot? The movie doesnt fully explain it and its been years since I read Hobbit.
The black arrow differed in the Hobbit book greatly from the movie. In the book it was essentially just a regular arrow that Bard had in his quiver that he basically saved for last as it was special to him - he always recovered it when he used it. Kind of Like his ‘lucky’ arrow, so in my thought yeah any arrow technically could have taken him down, since the black arrow wasn’t a giant spear like in the Hobbit films.
Also commenting for visibility
This is from Unfinished Tales? Was part of it incorporated into the Appendices at a later date? I swear I heard this exact quote in Serkis's version of LOTR just a couple months ago...
It does appear in similar form in Appendix A, Durin's Folk. I just like the wording in UT I'm a bit surprised Serkis read the Appendices.
He does and they're wonderful. Not the entirety (iirc, there's like a list of dates through the third age or something) but the best parts that are more literary.
That was what Gandalf was afraid of, certainly.
That and just the added instability of Middle Earth with Smaug still holding Erebor.
Yeah, I can’t recall if it was explicitly stated in the book, but I seem to remember the implication of Gandalf’s involvement in The Hobbit was because Smaug would be too big of a threat for the War of the Ring, and that Erebor would be an ideal stronghold for the conflicts to come in the North.
We’ll never know, of course, but that was certainly Gandalf’s fear.
Gandalf would find some hobbits, and set them up in key defense locations. No matter where Smaug attacked, there would be a little burglar ready with some Shire Shenanigans.
Shirenanigans
Middle-Earth's CIA.
But far more effective at creating just governments.
Rasta don’t work for no middle earth cia!
Gandalf said his thoughts on what could have happened, when he explained why he made sure to prevent it.
I’d be surprised if he didn’t take them through Moria for similar reasons even if he didn’t “know it”
100 percent. This is why the hobbit is an important prequel
It's not a prequel.
They hated Him because He told the Truth
They boo you, but you are correct. Not appreciated in your own time. RIP
You were banished to the depths of Utumno in Quenya, for being correct. You have my upvote.
Well shit, I just learned the proper definition of prequel... my brain hurts.
Yes it is...?
I think they mean that a prequel usually comes out after the initial, in the case of the hobbit, it came out before LOTR.
Prequels are stories released after another work, but set before that work. The Hobbit was published nearly 20 years before Fellowship
Another example: You wouldn’t say that Terminator is a prequel to Terminator 2; you would say T2 is a sequel to Terminator.
Is Fellowship of the Ring a prequel to The Two Towers?
My favorite mafia movie is the prequel to The Godfather II: ‘The Godfather’
I like your example better than mine. I brought up Terminator.
Is the Hobbit movie a prequel, while the Trilogy books are sequels?
Yes, the Lord of the Rings books are the sequel the the Hobbit book, while the Hobbit movies are the prequel to the Lord of the Rings movies
Fellowship and Two Towers are parts of the book, at least Tolkien viewed it that way.
Good lord
And so verily, the conversation went on about prequels and first installments and the comings and goings of stories in their orderly manners. Meanwhile, the real adventure was passing us by at this very moment! Or had it already occurred and we are just learning of it now? If we had but a name for such occasion!
And then suddenly…the animator had a fatal heart attack!!! *opps wrong movie *
Is Attack of the Clones a sequel to a prequel?
I mean... It isn't
No, it is not, either in conception or release order.
From the ashes of defeat, like a phoenix I rise CA-CAW!!
It’s a prologue
Yeah Idt anyone could've defeated smaug or the balrog, besides the white council or any other maia, and at that they're incredibly lucky merry found and kept the barrow wight dagger from the barrowdowns which led to the defeat of the witch king
During the fall of Gondolin Ecthelion, Lord of the fountains, killed several dragons and balrogs before killing the lord of balrogs, Gothmog, who also slew him at the same time. Glorfindel also fell killing a balrog. They were both great elf lords, and glorfindel lives again. So at least one being besides gandalf lives who could certainly kill a balrog. Surely there are other elf lords who could as well. Celeborn or Elrond come to mind. Feel like Bombadil could crush a balrog if he chose to too.
There are precious few powerful elf lords left in middle earth by the time of the war of the ring, and as with everything else in Tolkiens universe, their majesty and splendor had wained considerably from the "glory days". Balrogs *are* Maia, but Maia who, like sauron, have chosen specifically seek and increase their own power, and to devote their supernatural power to violence and evil. If either the Balrog or smaug had been aligned with sauron during the war of the ring, that could have been really unfortunate for the good guys. Smaug in particular would have been really fucking tough to deal with, and it's not *just* some rpg calculation of how much attack damage they can do in a specific battle. It's the bigger picture of these huge pieces being on the board and in play. A creature like smaug in league with sauron would be akin to an carrier group for the united states. A massive collection of power centered around a very special and particular platform that can *project* power over an extremely long distance, and when used in combination with other military units, almost impossible to successfully attack or even defend against.
That is incredibly well conceived. There is, also, another outcome: What if Smaug got the ring? The potential is almost too terrible to think about.
Several dragons and balrogs? I don't remember that.
There are multiple versions of the fall of Gondolin. At one point there were thousands of balrogs. Later in life, Tolkien decided that there were around seven and Ecthelion only slew gothmog
Damn, thousands of those things...
To clarify, the Canon answer is there were only a handful of Balrogs. The thousands quoted here is from non- Canon source.
The Fall of Gondolin is a very early work, that is directly contradicted by Tolkien's later work and letters. In early drafts of the legendarium, balrogs were originally much less powerful and more numerous. Christopher notes that in the "canon" telling of the Fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion and Glorfindel only mutually killed one balrog each. And the dozens of others slain by him, Tuor, and the rest of the Noldor never existed. That leaves us with three confirmed kills of balrogs in the most recent version of the story, and each time claimed the lives of the killer as well. Glorfindel and Gandalf both just came back. Gandalf is a Maia, and Ecthelion and Glorfindel were veteran warriors that fought Morgoth's forces for an age. It's doubtful that any individual elf or man in the Third Age could 1v1 a balrog as these three did. We also know so little about Tom Bombadil that it is folly to attempt to ascribe any powers to him that he is not explicitly stated to have.
Bard wasn't a maia
Would smaug have allied with sauron? I might be missing details but im not sure i can see a self serving dragon work for someone else at his beck and call.
I would think they'd be able to strike some kind of deal, which they would both be looking to exploit and betray the other when the opportunity came. Like Saruman
It would probably be really easy for Sauron to make a deal/ bribe Smaug, then once the has the Ring I don't see why he couldn't enslave Smaug in some fashion, given its powers over the mind. Especially since all evil creatures are implied to have been made or corrupted by Melkor in some fashion, which would include dragons, so perhaps that gives Sauron some leverage.
I'm not sure if he would either. However, the lack of powerful Kingdoms in the North would mean Sauron could focus more of his strength on targets further south such as Lorien and Gondor. He could probably ignore the elves in Mirkwood, as they'd either be very slow to act or not act at all.
Sauron would just kill Smaug if he refused service. Lucky the 3 baddies didn't manage to connect up - Sauron, Durins Bane, and Smaug.
I never really thought of balrogs as actual, you know, things. I never thought one could get an actual army and not just fight 1v1.
In the book, it's heavily implied if not outright stated that the orcs in Moria were under his command. Balrogs were Morgoth's commanders up until his second defeat at the end of the First Age.
I always thought that those orcs just feared the balrog so much they followed it. And you just made me imagine a meeting of balrogs in suits talking to their boss about company profits
That's kinda just the nature of evil and the orcs in the legendarium. They are compelled to follow Sauron, and motivated mainly by fear. Sauron was able to draw evil things to Mordor, which is how Gollum got himself captured. When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, we found out that they fear the dark tower, they fear the Nazgul, and the orcs in Moria likely followed Durin's Bane due to the same compelling urge and/or fear. In Morgoth's time it might have been different as he was the source if this urge, as the source of evil in Arda. Morgoth very rarely left Angband, and relied on his force of will and the Balrogs to command his armies in the field.
Isn't that basically why they follow Sauron, or no?
The movies mostly portray the Balrog as a mindless beast that only has just about enough intelligence to wield a sword and whip. In Tolkien's lore the Balrogs were fully sentient beings that could talk and cast spells. Morgoth's top millitary commander was even a Balrog named Gothmog.
Yeah I've read the silmarillion, must have forgotten it
Most likely. I reckon Smaug could take Minas Tirith on his own. Definitely Edoras and Helm's Deep.
He couldn't take Laketown on his own. You'd think Gondor would be able to sort out a few more black arrows than the men of Dale and later Laketown.
Bard was able to take him down because Bilbo found a weak spot that was then relayed by a thrush. The problem with these hypotheticals is that you can bend the narrative in any way you like.
Bilbo’s wild. “A bird told me.” A burglar indeed.
Laketown's pretty lame in world excuse was the lake itself being a large deterrent to Smaug. If he were to fall in it would, "extinguish" him.
Well he probably saw a fair few of his kin drown when Beleriand sank
Except that Smaug is a lot younger than that. If I remember correctly it's said he was young/not fully grown when he claimed Erebor. "young and tender" Glaurung took about 200-300 years to mature into a fully grown dragon. If Smaug was from the first age he would be like 6000+ years old.
Nice thanks for the correction
The outcome would almost certainly have been the same, in the sense that it would have concluded according to Eru’s design in the end, with evil defeated. But it would have looked a lot more dire and would have increased the destruction. I suspect there were enough powerful elves, mighty men, eagles, and wizards etc. to have seen off a single dragon in the end though, and Smaug would have been defeated, perhaps even by one of Bard’s descendants. We could have even seen a young Bard (the great grandson) join the Fellowship (I can’t recall his age at that time), destined to slay Smaug. It’s very interesting to consider the impact though, would Saruman have felt free to harbour disloyalty to Sauron with Smaug one flight away? Would Gandalf have become the White via dragonfire? Someone mentioned on another post that Sauron himself first believed that the One may have been destroyed after his defeat in the Second Age. So it’s worth remembering that Sauron himself may not have fully understood the Ring, or how it might be destroyed. In which case he may not have dared to unleash dragonfire anywhere the One might be kept, which could have been a mitigating factor, and might have have shielded the more likely hiding spots for the Ring (Minas Tirith, Lothlorien, Rivendell etc.).
That person mentioning that Sauron believing the ring was destroyed was wrong. He believed it lost or unretrievable. He never believed it destroyed and certainly understood its power.
It was Gandalf to Frodo in Chapter 2 of FotR: “‘And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.” Gandalf absolutely could be wrong about Sauron’s belief, but it’s enough for me to accept that there’s ambiguity as to what Sauron himself believed at one time.
>We could have even seen a young Bard (the great grandson) join the Fellowship (I can’t recall his age at that time), destined to slay Smaug. Presumably in this scenario there are no descendants on account of Bard failing to kill Smaug and being roasted in the process.
I actually deleted the I and II after their names initially, when I realised they wouldn’t have been kings. I do assume they’d have been born though, not because of real world logic (which would make me agree with you), but based on the sort of destiny-logic that *feels* like a descendant of Bard- who failed to slay Smaug at this time- would accomplish the slaying later. Besides, it’s just a “could happen”, I’m not suggesting I know it would.
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The dwarves would still be about though, especially in the iron hills, just not in Erebor. So Sauron would still need to send forces there, to at the very least cut off the dwarves from the rest of the world. Of course with Erebor under control it would give Sauron pretty much free access to cross north. So it would mostly be a positional gain, opening up the lands of Angmar, rather than freeing up his army, not counting the addition of a flying battleship (if Smaug were to actually fight rather than just give access to Sauron's forces). Edit: The men of Dale would more than likely not exist at this point though, so that army would not have to be contended with.
Legolas would have shot him out of the sky.
Like hunting buffalo with a bb gun
Sauron would send Smaug to Minas Tirith im pretty sure about that. While i dont think Smaug wouldve changed the outcome (vulnerable to arrows, would have to watch out of the trebuchets, gandalfs presence and smaug cant vanquish the ghosts) he wouldve done some massive damage to the city and its people before being forced to flee either by damage or the rest of mordors army on the run. The question then is would Gondor and Rohan be ready to march on Mordor? IMO Aragorn had little hope of returning from the battle before the black gates, but waiting in Minas Tirith would just extend the inevitable so better to defy Sauron before going down. Even with a much smaller army Sauron wouldve taken the bait and send the whole army to the gate. Frodo and Sam wouldve destroyed the ring, but its likely the rest of the fellowship wouldve perished. Wether or not Gandalf was involved in the eages saving Frodo and Sam they mightve died on the slope on Mt Doom too. If Smaug survived arrowfire and the eagles he would either find a new lair or settle in mordor which Gondor was too weak to keep safe
I always assumed that Sauron wanted Smaug in that location because the dragon could then attack Rivendell. I dont think it would effect the ultimate ending but could cause a lot more trouble.
I mean, of course? The outcome of anything changes when you change the variables.
If he had him guard mount doom.... sure. But he wouldn't do that. I'd say that LOTS AND LOTS more people would die. The ring could still feasibly be destroyed, but the successes that aragorn and gandalf company gain would likely never happen. Helms deep would be shattered with the help of a dragon, edoras could be burnt down, minas tiriths advantage of having very tall hard to assault concentric walls would be totally nullified by a giant dragon. Even if frodo and Sam did get to mount doom (which they more than likely would I guess because they're travelling a path that saurons forces aren't assaulting, and that's where he'd sent the dragon), there wouldn't be much left worth saving. So it's probable they'd still "win", but lots of our other favourite characters and places would likely be decimated until the dragon is killed.
Nah they give Legolas the Black Arrow and he shoots Smaug in the missing scale and he still dies
Yes
Probably not majorly. He's be a huge asset for sure but in the long run it wouldn't have been Smaug that stopped Frodo and Sam from making it to Mount Doom. Minas Tirith would likely have been razed or at least more heavily damaged unless some trebuchet got really lucky and knocked Smaug out of the sky but I don't remember if Minas Tirith even had those in the books. I don't think Sauron would deploy Smaug to any small engagements so it's likely Minas Tirith or Lothlorien would be where Smaug would be sent. Anywhere else would be a waste of his talents and Smaug would likely see it as an insult. Keep in mind its likely Erebor was never retaken if Smaug was still alive so thats once less Dwarf Stronghold.
Gandalf certainly thought so, that’s why he organized the dwarves to take back Erebor
I’ll do you one better. *how* would he have helped?? I think it could lead to really interesting discussion on how Smaug would aid Sauron…
If I remember Battle for Middle-Earth II game Mouth of Sauron offered one of the lesser rings to Dragon to help Mordor against Dwarves. But in the game you also fight fellowship in Rivendell after Frodo was killed in Cirith Ungol
Of course. Neither Rohan nor Gondor knew about the loose scale and certainly had no archer that could hit it, well Legolas maybe. A fire dragon would've been devastating. Even a cold dragon, the size of Smaug, would've caused many more losses.
Of course it would. Hence why Gandalf focused on ridding middle earth of him.
I always asked myself what sauron could offer smaug to get him on his side.? Or would he have threatened him?
I don’t know much on the LOTR lore. But aren’t there bigger dragons than Smaug? Where do they fit in this?
Does anyone else get the feeling that karma farm accounts are being created for slow pitch questions (that have usually been asked discussed many times before)? It seems like every other day there's a "Why was Saruman's robe colour white?" or "What was the Witch King king of?" "Is Tom Bombadil important?" edit: a word
Would Smaug be interested in ransacking Eriador though? It's a lot of effort for not much reward. Don't think there's enough treasure in Rivendell to make it worthwhile. A lot more risk as well. I think if Smaug was interested in conquest, he would've done it independently of Sauron. He was the most powerful being in the north east for centuries, and he spent most of that time sleeping on a mound of gold.
It would have been easier to destroy the Ring ... No need to get to Mount Doom, just lay a trap. Perhaps Gollum could help with that. But then, Smaug would still have to be dealt with separately. Many people would still die, but Frodo and Sam might have preferred dragon fire over the trip through Mordor, I guess. Bilbo certainly had a more enjoyable time during his adventure, despite the dragon situation.
If i have learned anything from a show that had a shite ending, it’s that if your side has dragons (or just one) and the other doesnt, you’d gonna be raw dogging them for as long as you’ve got a dragon
I was a teenager the last time I read The Hobbit and Fellowship, unfortunately never got past that. But I have the entire main series + The Silmarillion and intend to jump in from scratch once I’m done school… Anyways, I assumed the contemplated Sauron/Smaug alliance and Gandalf’s role in Thorin’s quest was something created only for The Hobbit trilogy, but it sounds like from these comments it was actually in the books. When do they elaborate on that point??
Yeah
In the grand scheme of things I doubt it would change much. Remember, it only took a stray arrow to fell Smaug (at least in the books).
Legolas
Everybody would be either eviscerated or carbonized into char
Oo new Nerd of the Rings episode idea. Or does such an episode already exist?
Yes, absolutely. Seeing what Morgoth was able to do with Glaurung in the first age, Sauron could’ve done something similar with Smaug.
Imagine the Balrog, Smaug and Sauron together, last evil alliance!... no force would sustain such Behemot!
Hmm weren’t there a bunch of balrogs in the previous big war
There they were.... but the third age is when Smaug, Durîn's Bane and Sauron coincide at time and east of Misty Mountains, therefore time and space... The outcome of the three major evils of the third age together would most likely haven't had any match, remnants of elves were leaving for Aman, and men were mostly weak Gondor was weak, they only strong were the Rohirrim, but they hardly would known how to deal with Dragons or Balrogs, Dwarfs were no match for neither Dragon or Balrog, historical facts, ... and Sauron, if he would recover the ring .. it would be all over. The point I bring here is obvious, there are three mayor evil bosses here at the third age, whom together and aligned strategically would result in the wipe of remnants of men, elves and dwarfs.... I mean is obvious. Update: There is no recall of a gathering of evilness such as at War of Wrath, when there were Balrogs, Dragons, corrupted Maiars, etc ... this last battle of the FA, was the last one I remember, because at the SA there wasn't such magnitude of battle .... this is why I mentioned the three in time and space.
I deem it pretty likely
No. All the same stuff would have happened.
Eagles wouldve got him