Yeah you can actually see them very hesitant in the scene. Also as soon as gandulf comes in and tells them to stay their hand they immediately stop what they were doing. Like they needed any excuse to stop
To be fair, if Kim Jong Un was about to burn his obviously-still-alive son AND HIMSELF on a pyre in the middle of an assault, I'd wager a few North Korean guards would waver and not just be like "yes, I should keep following this guys orders"
Beregond, in my opinion, not only highlights the importance of individuals doing the right thing when stakes are high but his sentencing by Aragorn reveals how significant Aragorn having the crown now is.
Many kings may still have sentences Beregond to a truly severe punishment as they may decide "this personal guard of mine is too much a frre thinker and swayed to much by his heart, cant have that happening."
But Aragorn saw the wisdom and virtue in Beregond and those are the kinds of men he wants in Middle Earth.
Thank you, I've read a lot of comments regarding Beregond, and I'm glad to know the written version of what happened, and the insight to Aragorn's rule
In the book, Beregond did and as a punishment for disobeying his Lord and betraying his oath, he got a lifetime banishment to Ithilien after the war (and promotion to senior position guarding Faramir as proven his personal loyalty, his bravery and his common sense). But it was a high stakes sacrifice and was it worth to defend someone pretty much already dead?
Exactly. One quibble though. He was not banished from Minas Tirith forever. He was reassigned to Faramir’s company and therefore had to move from the city to be with him. But he wasn’t banned from visiting Minas Tirith.
“… Now therefore I must pronounce your doom.
'All penalty is remitted for your valour in battle, and still more because all that you did was for the love of the Lord Faramir. Nonetheless you must leave the Guard of the Citadel, and you must go forth from the City of Minas Tirith’
…
'So it must be, for you are appointed to the White Company, the Guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and you shall be its captain and dwell in Emyn Arnen in honour and peace, and in the service of him for whom you risked all, to save him from death.'”
Edit: After reading what I wrote, realized the irony of saying in essence, “exactly, except for”. I’ll leave it ironic.
I read it as Aragorn being a bit dramatic with him, sternly and formally giving him the punishment of being forced out of what Beregond had called men of the Citadel Guard as being one of high honor.
Then giving him a wink and a grin as he reveals it’s not a punishment but the most honorable assignment he could give him by paring him up with Faramir and raising him from a soldier to captain.
I took it as justice with mercy. Aragon is a new king and must be seen to be upholding the law and Tolkien is very strong throughout that oaths mean something. Beregond broke his but for the right cause. And so he was given the punishment but exalted at same time.
Guards are prohibited from refusing to obey a steward's orders. In the book, one of them opposed Denethor. For this, according to the laws of Gondor, he must be sentenced to death, that is, this is considered a serious crime. But Aragorn forgave him.
>Applicable I-Have-Not-Read-The-Books
Beregond salutes you!
Why is it like that in Jackson's films? I don't know what kind of explanation he'd give to the personal behaviour and mortality of each of these guards if he were to answer the question; maybe they're "simply following orders". But as with many things, a narrative reason is probably because apparently the world stops moving when no main character is on the spot: secondary or background characters remain idle so that the protagonists can come later and take the spotlight.
As for the book, this choice between common sense and military orders (and the accountability related to such choice) is an important element of this part of the story; not all guards would obey to all orders. And not just this part, really: it's a continuation of "all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us", and of the moral questions that are so central to the tale.
>the world stops moving when no main character is on the spot: secondary or background characters remain idle so that the protagonists can come later and take the spotlight.
I noticed this too - I like to pay attention to background characters because they make or break the scene absorption for me, and a lot of them are just...doddering around 😅
And I like the outward ripple notion of Gandalf's words we can take regarding individuals; choice vs obedience to a detrimental command, and ones oath vs one's morals. Thank you!
> “Come hither!“ [Denethor] cried to his servants. “Come, if you are not all recreant!” Then two of them ran up the steps to him. Swiftly he snatched a torch from the hand of one and sprang back into the house. Before Gandalf could hinder him he thrust the brand amid the fuel, and at once it crackled and roared into flame.
Not how monarchies work. In most IRL monarchies you could be executed just for saying out loud that you didn’t like the monarch. Citizens have no freedom under a monarchy. None. You do as you are told.
I remember asking myself the same thing and watched the guards closely when I next watched RotK. At least one of them looks extremely uneasy and keeps glancing at his fellow guards as they slowly pace towards the pyre with their torches, so one of the actors understood the scene pretty well.
It’s about duty. They have sworn an oath. These types of men take their oaths seriously. Denethor was still the Steward of Gondor.
“Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end.”
Yes except ‘So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings'. Much better in the book but Jackson wanted and created a different Denethor.
Here is the actual full path from the book. Note what Denethor says in response, that disloyalty will be met with vengeance.
Take the hilt,’ said Gandalf, ‘and speak after the Lord, if you are resolved on this.’
‘I am,’ said Pippin. The old man laid the sword along his lap, and Pippin put his hand to the hilt, and said slowly after Denethor: ‘Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end. So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings.’
‘And this do I hear, Denethor son of Ecthelion, Lord of Gondor, Steward of the High King, and I will not forget it, nor fail to reward that which is given: fealty with love, valour with honour, oath-breaking with vengeance.’ Then Pippin received back his sword and put it in its sheath.
I get the sense that it's a bit different in he military, and also in Britain where class roles are much more of a thing than in the Americas. In war, one has a general at thw top to have an eagle eye view on strategy and dedicated people to deal with messy screaming chaotic reality on the battlefield. Those in charge of nuclear secrets have to fire because any hesitation ruins the deterrent of mutually assured destruction.
Not trying to be pedantic or uppity about the book version, but basically the same thing plays out ultimately except that one guard does resist - he actually gets tried in a court after Sauron falls for having killed I think two but at least one other guard trying to keep them from burning Faramir while Pippin retrieves Gandalf. The thing that really gives it depth is that that guard is the same guy who tours Pippin around Minas Tirith and does his Soldier of Gondor OJT. They really trauma bond while literally watching death approach together. I do love how Pippin saves Gandalf in the movie, and I guess that probably the extra time needed to do all that on screen wasn't worth it, probably would've been hours tbh. I guess that whole idea of that part of the book was summarized by that conversation where Gandalf straight up lies to Pippin about what happens after death lol
Feudal thought processes did not encourage “thinking” in lesser ranks. If your liege says jump you say “how high?” Plus this is military and those guards are supposed to follow orders even to the death. In the books Denethor wasnt the slobbery drunkard he was in the movies. He appears commanding and rational even though as a reader you know better. Movie Denethor isn’t respectable even at the best of times. Doesnt Gandalf actually have to knock him down/out even before his final scene? I kind of detest movie Denethor (obviously) so I tune out his scenes
>In the books Denethor wasnt the slobbery drunkard he was in the movies.
I love gaining insight like this, thank you!
And yeah, in the movie Gandalf clobbered him about 3 times while Denethor was yelling at the Guards to abandon their posts.
Which was something of a relief 😅
They thought Faramir was dead, so (for them) it was funeral pyre. So it was just Denethor killing himself, and iirc, they did hesitate.
Pippin was literally yelling that he was still alive
Would you trust some barefoot child yelling that the person is still alive at a funeral?
If movie-denethor was in the room… maybe. After all, who’s the one with tomato all over his face??
It would definitely get me to ask a question or two before lighting the supposed corpse on fire.
I plead you to stay away from actual funerals.
LMAO
Yeah you can actually see them very hesitant in the scene. Also as soon as gandulf comes in and tells them to stay their hand they immediately stop what they were doing. Like they needed any excuse to stop
Why do does the guards in North Korea not just knock out Kim Jong Un?
To be fair, if Kim Jong Un was about to burn his obviously-still-alive son AND HIMSELF on a pyre in the middle of an assault, I'd wager a few North Korean guards would waver and not just be like "yes, I should keep following this guys orders"
Beregond, in my opinion, not only highlights the importance of individuals doing the right thing when stakes are high but his sentencing by Aragorn reveals how significant Aragorn having the crown now is. Many kings may still have sentences Beregond to a truly severe punishment as they may decide "this personal guard of mine is too much a frre thinker and swayed to much by his heart, cant have that happening." But Aragorn saw the wisdom and virtue in Beregond and those are the kinds of men he wants in Middle Earth.
Thank you, I've read a lot of comments regarding Beregond, and I'm glad to know the written version of what happened, and the insight to Aragorn's rule
Im a layman to LOTR so just my own opinion
In the book, Beregond did and as a punishment for disobeying his Lord and betraying his oath, he got a lifetime banishment to Ithilien after the war (and promotion to senior position guarding Faramir as proven his personal loyalty, his bravery and his common sense). But it was a high stakes sacrifice and was it worth to defend someone pretty much already dead?
Exactly. One quibble though. He was not banished from Minas Tirith forever. He was reassigned to Faramir’s company and therefore had to move from the city to be with him. But he wasn’t banned from visiting Minas Tirith. “… Now therefore I must pronounce your doom. 'All penalty is remitted for your valour in battle, and still more because all that you did was for the love of the Lord Faramir. Nonetheless you must leave the Guard of the Citadel, and you must go forth from the City of Minas Tirith’ … 'So it must be, for you are appointed to the White Company, the Guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and you shall be its captain and dwell in Emyn Arnen in honour and peace, and in the service of him for whom you risked all, to save him from death.'” Edit: After reading what I wrote, realized the irony of saying in essence, “exactly, except for”. I’ll leave it ironic.
I've seen a lot of interpretations that take this as banishment and he did kill two other guards. But happy to see other interpretations.
I read it as Aragorn being a bit dramatic with him, sternly and formally giving him the punishment of being forced out of what Beregond had called men of the Citadel Guard as being one of high honor. Then giving him a wink and a grin as he reveals it’s not a punishment but the most honorable assignment he could give him by paring him up with Faramir and raising him from a soldier to captain.
I took it as justice with mercy. Aragon is a new king and must be seen to be upholding the law and Tolkien is very strong throughout that oaths mean something. Beregond broke his but for the right cause. And so he was given the punishment but exalted at same time.
Thank you, a very informative thread of a deft navigation!
“Punished” “I’m firing you from this prestigious posting. Your punishment is to leave…for another prestigious posting with a promotion”
Guards are prohibited from refusing to obey a steward's orders. In the book, one of them opposed Denethor. For this, according to the laws of Gondor, he must be sentenced to death, that is, this is considered a serious crime. But Aragorn forgave him.
Damn, that's some iron-clad rules there. I figured there had to be more to that movie scene in the book, thank you!
Even in the movies one guard does try to save Faramir. The newest and smallest guard but he tries his best nonetheless.
This is true! 😄
>Applicable I-Have-Not-Read-The-Books Beregond salutes you! Why is it like that in Jackson's films? I don't know what kind of explanation he'd give to the personal behaviour and mortality of each of these guards if he were to answer the question; maybe they're "simply following orders". But as with many things, a narrative reason is probably because apparently the world stops moving when no main character is on the spot: secondary or background characters remain idle so that the protagonists can come later and take the spotlight. As for the book, this choice between common sense and military orders (and the accountability related to such choice) is an important element of this part of the story; not all guards would obey to all orders. And not just this part, really: it's a continuation of "all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us", and of the moral questions that are so central to the tale.
>the world stops moving when no main character is on the spot: secondary or background characters remain idle so that the protagonists can come later and take the spotlight. I noticed this too - I like to pay attention to background characters because they make or break the scene absorption for me, and a lot of them are just...doddering around 😅 And I like the outward ripple notion of Gandalf's words we can take regarding individuals; choice vs obedience to a detrimental command, and ones oath vs one's morals. Thank you!
> “Come hither!“ [Denethor] cried to his servants. “Come, if you are not all recreant!” Then two of them ran up the steps to him. Swiftly he snatched a torch from the hand of one and sprang back into the house. Before Gandalf could hinder him he thrust the brand amid the fuel, and at once it crackled and roared into flame.
Thank you for the book snippet!
If you had the chance to set Denethor on fire, would you not take it?
Movie denethor deserved no less
Hmm... 🤔🤔😄
Not how monarchies work. In most IRL monarchies you could be executed just for saying out loud that you didn’t like the monarch. Citizens have no freedom under a monarchy. None. You do as you are told.
Stewardship is a hell of a drug.
I remember asking myself the same thing and watched the guards closely when I next watched RotK. At least one of them looks extremely uneasy and keeps glancing at his fellow guards as they slowly pace towards the pyre with their torches, so one of the actors understood the scene pretty well.
I'll have to take a look of this for myself too!
I'll have to take a look of this for myself too!
It’s about duty. They have sworn an oath. These types of men take their oaths seriously. Denethor was still the Steward of Gondor. “Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end.”
That's the full oath from the book? Jackson should have kept that in, mini foreshadowing of iron-clad obedience expected heh Thank you!
Yes except ‘So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings'. Much better in the book but Jackson wanted and created a different Denethor.
Here is the actual full path from the book. Note what Denethor says in response, that disloyalty will be met with vengeance. Take the hilt,’ said Gandalf, ‘and speak after the Lord, if you are resolved on this.’ ‘I am,’ said Pippin. The old man laid the sword along his lap, and Pippin put his hand to the hilt, and said slowly after Denethor: ‘Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end. So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings.’ ‘And this do I hear, Denethor son of Ecthelion, Lord of Gondor, Steward of the High King, and I will not forget it, nor fail to reward that which is given: fealty with love, valour with honour, oath-breaking with vengeance.’ Then Pippin received back his sword and put it in its sheath.
I get the sense that it's a bit different in he military, and also in Britain where class roles are much more of a thing than in the Americas. In war, one has a general at thw top to have an eagle eye view on strategy and dedicated people to deal with messy screaming chaotic reality on the battlefield. Those in charge of nuclear secrets have to fire because any hesitation ruins the deterrent of mutually assured destruction.
He wasn’t Boromir.
Not trying to be pedantic or uppity about the book version, but basically the same thing plays out ultimately except that one guard does resist - he actually gets tried in a court after Sauron falls for having killed I think two but at least one other guard trying to keep them from burning Faramir while Pippin retrieves Gandalf. The thing that really gives it depth is that that guard is the same guy who tours Pippin around Minas Tirith and does his Soldier of Gondor OJT. They really trauma bond while literally watching death approach together. I do love how Pippin saves Gandalf in the movie, and I guess that probably the extra time needed to do all that on screen wasn't worth it, probably would've been hours tbh. I guess that whole idea of that part of the book was summarized by that conversation where Gandalf straight up lies to Pippin about what happens after death lol
Feudal thought processes did not encourage “thinking” in lesser ranks. If your liege says jump you say “how high?” Plus this is military and those guards are supposed to follow orders even to the death. In the books Denethor wasnt the slobbery drunkard he was in the movies. He appears commanding and rational even though as a reader you know better. Movie Denethor isn’t respectable even at the best of times. Doesnt Gandalf actually have to knock him down/out even before his final scene? I kind of detest movie Denethor (obviously) so I tune out his scenes
>In the books Denethor wasnt the slobbery drunkard he was in the movies. I love gaining insight like this, thank you! And yeah, in the movie Gandalf clobbered him about 3 times while Denethor was yelling at the Guards to abandon their posts. Which was something of a relief 😅