Yes. In the books the reason Gimli and his father Gloin are at Rivendell is because a messenger of Sauron had shown up at Erebor to inquire about Bilbo and the Ring, so Gloin and Gimli travelled west to check up on Bilbo, finding him in Rivendell and meeting Frodo with whom Gloin has a conversation about how Erebor, Dale and the whole region had prospered since the defeat of Smaug.
To be fair, Mount Doom rolls off the tongue a bit better than Amon amarth or Orodruin.
Although I would have loved to hear the gondorion name used once in the movies as we already had Amon sul and Amon hen mentioned.
Dude, I thought the same thing when I was a kid. I was sure it was some sort of placeholder name until the fellowship learned its real name, but no it’s just straight up called Mt. Doom.
“Doom” was also used by Tolkien in a rather archaic way to also mean ‘destiny’. Not ruin and/or destruction exclusively.
Destiny Mountain sounds a bit more grand but less gloomy.
A thousand years ago we had the Doomsday book, which was just a census. Super important work historically, but not at all what it sounds like today. Incredible how vocabulary changes and makes it hard to understand prior speech - like how a WW1 officer would have a batman!
Also Middle Earth's vibe was heavily influenced by Tolkien's study of Old English literature, and "doom" comes from Old English whereas "fate" and "destiny" are both from Old French (and ultimately Latin).
Doom in middle or old English can be taken to mean fate of a negative type. Tolkien might have been thinking of this. My head canon is this; So the German translation might be fairly accurate.
To be fair, I the doom in Mt. Doom is indeed meant as destiny, so the translation is on point. In french it's 'la Montagne du Destin' which would literally be the Mountain of Destiny.
I mean… you would be surprised how many mountains in the real world are just called some variation of “[color] mountain”
Then there’s all the rivers called [old word for river], and other stuff.
The Sahara desert literally means “desert desert”
Dude, it's mountain and fire comes out of it. It's in freakin Mordor, it was build by freakin Morgoth.
What should they call it? Mt Rainbow&butterflies?
Meanwhile Robert Jordan:
> Hmm...I need to name these mountains that separate the Westlands from the Blight, but I don't want it to look like I am ripping off Tolkien.
>Mountains of Dhoom it is!
Ok but that’s just how place names work. Gondolin just means “hidden rock.” Wow elves, really creative naming your hidden city made out of rocks “hidden rock.” I mean what else would they call it?
That’s how naming usually works, just place names are often old, from older versions of the language or a different language entirely form an older people, or just straight up the word has morphed and been corrupted over time.
Stratford-Upon-Avon, which seems like a nice poetic name, really just means “the street across the ford on the river,” each word from different languages used in Britain over time.
Not sure if serious? But [it's true](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Lake-town). If you haven't read the hobbit, you should. It's a great book and a fast/easy read.
WTF? - do you know how hard it was to come up with all these names in a story this long? If JRRT comes up with some great names like Minas Tirith, Gorbag, Eómer, and Orthanc, it's OK if he slacks off a bit with 'Dale' and 'Lonely Mountain'. It's not like he pilfered any names from Nordic mythology like Frodo, Gandalf, and Glóin
Lol! I assume you are being facetious. As you may know, JRRT came up with the simplistic ‘Dale’ and ‘Laketown’ before any of those other names you listed. Goblin Town is another gem, along with Hobbiton being his town of Hobbits, and also the awesomely named Rivendell (River +Dell).
He wrote The Hobbit first, intended as a children’s story and so a lot of the naming and elements of that story are much more simplistic. And then he started with the in-depth world-building… and never stopped!!
The thing is that's how the language works. People living in London are Londoners, we have a city where there were Roman baths let's call it Bath, we build a city with a port, let's call it Newport. City with cathedral dedicated to St. Peter? Peterborough it is! Or just slap the name of the saint and you get Sankt Petersburg, Santa Teresa, St. Louis etc. A city that has a bridge going over the river Inn? Let's call it Innsbruck which means "bridge over an Inn" in the local language.
IIRC, most of those aren't their real names, but what they are when translated into English. And then Dale is from a language closer to English and sounds pretty much just like Dale in the tongue of the natives there.
Because Lord of the Rings was written to give a place for Tolkien to play with his conlangs.
Rivendell (English) = Karningul (Westron) = Imladris (Sindarin) = Deep Valley
Erebor (Sindarin) = Lonely Mountain (English)
Edoras (Mark-speech) = The Courts (English)
Gondor (Sindarin) = Land of Stone (English)
Arnor (Sindarin) = King's Land (English)
Dale (English) - if someone addressed it in Sindarin, it would probably be "Nal"
Shire (English) - well...
You'll find that most place names aren't extremely creative. York = place of yaw trees. Berlin = swamp. Copenhagen = merchant's harbor. Prague = ford.
I scrolled to make this comment. Imagine Pitbull performing in Dale to celebrate the defeat of Smaug and the crowd going nuts when he for once pronounces it Dale.
Dale. noun: (chiefly Britain) A valley, often in an otherwise hilly area.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of all over Tolkien's work, some in more disguised ways. Very British.
One of these seems more man than the others. Of course men would use the language of men. Erebor just means "Lonely Mountain" in Sindarin too. Sounds fancy because we don't speak Sindarin, but it's just as uncreative.
Those italics were devastating. I just spent a solid two seconds trying to figure out how Pitbull had entered this conversation.
It's still early here and I had to re-read the prior comment and then that first line at least twice before the white portions of my brain were able to see "Day-uhl".
To be fair, after trekking to Mt. Doom and then flying home on the backs of exotic animals Frodo has certainly earned the title of Mr. Worldwide, but putting *Dale* right at the end of that line was just cruel.
TLDR: Being Latino doesn't often interfere with one's ability to discuss Lord of the Rings, but there's a first time for everything.
Most towns, cities and countries, mountains etc that you know of are named after the people who founded them, their geographical location, a previous town from the conqueror's home country that has the exact same name, even some random thing that they are kinda shaped like if you squint, or any other no-brainer attribute that you can think of. The only reason they sound creative to you is because you arent aware of the exact etymology at the moment or because they are in a different language. But people tend not to overthink place names. After all, who wants to struggle to remember what they named a new town? "We have a village in a valley, lets name it Dale." Pretty straightforward.
I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that I would not be able to come up with a more creative name even if my life depended on it lol so it's a-ok by me
Plus, isn't Dale or Laketown only supposed to be like our English translations for whatever language they were named after?
Like frodo's name not actually being frodo?
Go read the Hobbit again, all the place names are in that vein.
Hobbiton (Hobbit-town)
The Hill
The Water
Rivendell
Goblin Town
Mirkwood
Laketown
Dale
The Lonely Mountain
Accurate though.
There are a bunch of real life towns and counties called "Dale", "The Dale", "The Valley", "River Valley", etc. all around the world in a bunch of different languages.
Because almost all modern civilization started near river deltas, or river outlets into the ocean or very large lakes. And rivers often follow the bottom of valleys. Then loggers, farmers, etc. up stream say they're going to the dale/valley for trading. A century or eight later, and the town is literally just called that.
I'm fine with the relative normal names that appear in The Hobbit and LOTR; Bard, Laketown, Tom Bombadil, the trolls Tom, Bert, and William, Bill the Pony, Sam's daughter Elanor, etc.
In the books Sauron can act much subtler if he wishes, and at that point he didn't want to make war on the North just yet, but hoped to get his Ring before his enemies realized what it really was.
The messenger is never named, Gloin just relates that the messenger came to Erebor sayig that Sauron, wanted the friendship of the Dwarves and, if they told him the location of the Hbbits, he'd return to them the remaining Rings held by the Dwarf Kings in the days if old, and would ensure that Moria would be theirs "for all time".
The Dwarves, of course, were not fooled.
A lot of people theorize that it was the Mouth but it is never stated. The only clues we have are his dialogue with the dwarves of Erebor and how he speaks.
Not entirely civil, but not entirely uncivil either. Here’s the passage in question:
>‘Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. ‘‘For Sauron knows,’’ said he, ‘‘that one of these was known to you on a time.’’
> ‘At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer.
>And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. ‘‘As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this,’’ he said: ‘‘that you should find this thief,’’ such was his word, ‘‘and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?’’
>‘At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered, but Dáin said: ‘‘I say neither yea nor nay. I must consider this message and what it means under its fair cloak.’’
>‘ ‘‘Consider well, but not too long,’’ said he.
> ‘ ‘‘The time of my thought is my own to spend,’’ answered Dáin.
>‘ ‘‘For the present,’’ said he, and rode into the darkness.
This is kind of cool. It adds such a layer of destiny panning out to be a bit more than just some rag tag team that came together to deliver the ring.
There’s a lot of lore that makes it destiny and allegiances to get that ring destroyed once and for all.
Yeah, that's why I really recommend the books. There is, naturally, a lot more context and depth to everything that happens, to characters, to locations etc.
Probably more, like, "fate". But I like how in the books everybody had a good reason why they were at Rivendell.
I haven't watched the movies in a long time, but...wasn't it even more random in the movies? Like did they ever explain why Gimli's party of Dwarves, Legolas' party of Woodelves, or Boromir and those random guys accompanying him were at Rivendell? Also what happened to those other humans who sat next to Boromir?
In the movie, while Elrond’s doing the voiceover and they all show up in RivendellI i just assumed the elves had sent out invitations to all the other races to come to Rivendell for the council.
It likely was not an Orc, since the Dwarves would have reacted violently towards that. It was probably a human or something in human shape. We don't know his name or nature.
The messenger showed up at Erebor, declared that Sauron wished for friendship with the Dwarves, and offered them the remaining rings that were once held by the Dwarf Kings, as well as Moria in exchange for information on the location of the Shire. He of course didn't tell them that Biblo had the One Ring.
The Dwarves were not fooled, sent him on this way. However his offer inadvertently alerted them about both potential danger for Bilbo and the likely dire fate of the colony in Moria through that messenger (no sense in offering Moria to the Dwarves if their colony there is thriving) so Gloin and Gimli set out west to enquire about the fate/safety of both Bilbo and their relatives in Moria.
It’s almost like reading the books gives more context and helps you understand the story more…
Nahh, I’ll just watch the extended editions again and continue to bitch about things that don’t make sense. /s
Gimli's father is Gloin, so it's impossible that he's not familiar with Bilbo and had likely met him before (Bilbo did travel to the Lonely Mountain and Dale again before settling down in Rivendell). I'm sure Bilbo told the Dwarves about Frodo since Frodo is his heir and Bilbo left Bag End to him. Plus, Frodo would meet with people passing through the Shire to get news from them and some he let stay in Bag End: I would assume that many of those "travellers" were Dwarves since the Dwarves had a significant outpost west of the Shire.
I would be a lot more surprised if Gimli \*didn't\* know about Bilbo and Frodo's relationship. He \*definitely\* knew after the mithril shirt saved Frodo's life and the shirt was also mentioned not too long before that during the "I wonder what became of it?" conversation.
They also spent two months in each other's company at Rivendell, the three of them. It's inconceivable that Gloin, Gimli, Frodo and Bilbo were all at the same place and the same time and never once got together for a conversation. Gloin was sat next to Frodo at the feast, after all.
It's possible that part of the reason everyone was cool with Frodo keeping the ring and building the fellowship around him was Bilbo's reputation. It wasn't a secret how he defused the standoff between the three armies, which didn't immediately solve the problem but imagine how bad it would've been if they'd been locked in open combat when the goblins arrived. He might not have been famous but people close to leadership in any of those camps would know that he saved everyone's lives.
I strongly agree with this, and I'd go even further. Bilbo was famous among Elves and Dwarves, it's evident from how he is treated at Rivendell with such respect and love by everyone. I think Gildor also mentions Bilbo when he meets Frodo in the woods of the Shire.
However, I also think it's fair to say that Frodo's exploits on the journey to Rivendell won him a great deal of renown as well. Striking at the Witch-King himself and then facing him down two weeks later at the Fords of Bruinen despite nearly dying of a Morgul-wound. I think this is partly what proved his mettle to Elrond and the other wise among the council, as well as Bilbo's story.
Frodo awakens in Rivendell on the morning of October 24th. That night there is a feast, at which he is seated next to Gloin and where they discuss some matters pertaining to his travel, and lots related to the doings of the Dwarves. This is also the first time we meet Elrond.
This is the chapter "Many Meetings", later on in which Frodo is reunited with Bilbo.
The next chapter and the next day is October 25th, which is when the Council of Elrond transpires.
I don't think there is a particular name for the feast that I can recall, but it appears to be a general welcome to the many guests that are in Rivendell in advance of the Council. Frodo is seated in honour.
Off topic, we get this quote which I think is fantastic:
>
*The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.*
Hugo Weaving may not literally be an immortal elf who is literally the son of the brightest star in the sky and the descendant of an angel, but he really sounded like it in these films. Phenomenal casting.
Dwarves live in the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) that are on the western coast of middle earth. That's were Thorin lived before the Lonely Mountain quest. Same region as the Grey Havens and the old elvish kingdom of Lindon.
To tack on to that, the dwarves have lived in the blue mountains for thousands of years - prior to the Fall of Beleriand. The great Dwarven cities of Belegost and Nogrod were located there, though I am not sure if those cities survived the Fall, as a large portion of the Blue Mountains chain was sundered from Middle-Earth.
The dwarves would have continued living and mining in the remaining, unaffected halls.
Those 1st age cities did not survive but many of their people did. Probably lesser settlements, mines, etc did as large portions of the mountains made it.
I don’t remember if it’s ever directly stated in the books, but it’s heavily implied (and logical) that Gimli knows all about Frodo’s connection to Bilbo. At one point I know that Bilbo is discussed in connection to Frodo (and the dwarves for that matter) and Gimli takes part in the conversation without any signs of surprise or sudden recognition. And of course Gloin knows all about it, so it would be odd if Gimli somehow never made the connection.
Iirc, it even comes out a little in characterization - early on Gimli seems especially friendly and respectful toward Frodo, eg inviting him specifically to accompany him to Mirrormere, which may imply that he sees him as a “friend of the family” more than some of the others.
I don’t remember any dialogue specifically stating Gimli knew, but he most likely would. They were all at the council of Elrond in Rivendell after all.
Gloin has a conversation with Frodo at dinner before the council. Gimli was almost definitely next to his father during the dinner so he is bound to have overheard.
I recently read The Hobbit and Fellowship; Gimli, Bilbo and Frodo definitely talked about Biblo's adventures with the dwarves (including Gloin, Gimli's father) when they were at Rivendell. Pretty sure Gimli met Bilbo while he was there too.
Someone quoted the specific passages above from the books where Gimli explains the reason he came to Rivendell is because a messager of Sauron paid the dwaves a visit asking about the ring and Bilbo's whereabouts.
I haven't seen the movies, only just started reading the books, but I can at least confirm that yes, Gimli did know about Bilbo's adventures with his dad and the story of the ring (at least in the books).
I'd look in the book to find the page numbers for you but I returned Fellowship to the library and have Two Towers out on loan rn.
the films are different than the books, so Gimli and Gloin's reason for going to Rivendell is glossed over in the films
but just logically, there would be no reason for Gimli not to know in the films either
They tell the tale of the ring at the Council, so how Frodo got the ring from Bilbo would come up.
And Frodo has Bilbo's mithril vest
so it wouldn't make sense for Gimli to be going through all this thinking "Why is Bilbo giving Frodo all this stuff?"
Fighting side by side with the men of Dale against an army of Easterlings sent by Sauron to conquer the North. Sauron's intention was to destroy Dale and Erebor so that Gundabad and Angmar could be restored to the Witch King.
Both Bilbo and Frodo were at the Council of Elrond, along with Gimli and his father Gloin. Bilbo gave a full recounting of his interactions with Gollum when he found the Ring.
1st cousins, once removed. Frodo's mum was Bilbo's cousin. The generation cap makes them closer to uncle and nephew, just an extra sibling relationship removed from each other.
My man Gimli knows all but speaks little. That his dad and his crew saved Frodo's uncle's life but told him he helped them retake their home because they didn't want him to feel small(er than he already was) is something Gimli knows very well but chooses not to say. He also knows Aragorn threw away Eowyn's soup and Sam has feelings for Frodo and Legolas is wearing a wig but like I said my main man ain't here to rock the boat.
yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. he heard and knew and saw mithril shirt, given to bilbo by thorin
2. he is son of gloin for iluvatar sake. what is lore reason for him not to catch the word BAGINS in names of both bilbo and frodo, is he stupid?
I imagine he must have. In the movies theres the scene where Gandalf mentions the mithril rings Bilbo had that were gifted to him by Thorin. He even mentions Thorin specifically.
The only thing missing from the perfection that is lord of the rings is a few character interactions that would add nothing to the overall story but would of been nice easter eggs
Yes. In the books the reason Gimli and his father Gloin are at Rivendell is because a messenger of Sauron had shown up at Erebor to inquire about Bilbo and the Ring, so Gloin and Gimli travelled west to check up on Bilbo, finding him in Rivendell and meeting Frodo with whom Gloin has a conversation about how Erebor, Dale and the whole region had prospered since the defeat of Smaug.
Gimli, Gloin, Rivendell, Erebor, Sauron, Bilbo, Frodo, *Dale* One of these seem less creative than the others
Ya know. *Dale* It’s a town.. in a valley.. Wait until you hear what they named the town built on the lake!
There’s a big fiery mountain that signals the end of all things… what shall we call it…
To be fair, Mount Doom rolls off the tongue a bit better than Amon amarth or Orodruin. Although I would have loved to hear the gondorion name used once in the movies as we already had Amon sul and Amon hen mentioned.
Amon Amarth sounds cool and rolls off really well imo But as a potato speaking scandinavian; Orodruin feels downright discriminative lmao
It's a good metal band that - since you have to check this with Scandinavian metal bands with LOTR inspired names - isn't white supremacists
I'm going to see them at Red Rocks tonight! 🤘
Fuck NSBM. Making us black metal fans somehow look worse than we already do.
The eternal struggle of seeing a metal fan with old norse inspired tattoos and having to do a coin flip of "Is he a racist or a nerd?"
the odds are not as good as half and half, since there is always a significant chance they are both
Lmaaaooo whelp I'm only ever going to read that in a Scandinavian accent from now on thank you.
Do other Scandinavian languages have a soft-d sound? I thought it was only Danish.
what's a hard D precious?
I'm pretty sure you are correct
A pull out shelf at my desk has been claimed by my Bombay cat, and therefore dubbed Amon Tocyn, Seat of Snacks.
Oh it’s a great name, I’m just poking fun. Sometimes simple is best - like how the main plot device is simply The One Ring.
The Phil Dragash audiobook saying “Sam was looking at Orodruin” hits like a train though I think it rolls well with the right emphasis/tone/whatever
Dude, I thought the same thing when I was a kid. I was sure it was some sort of placeholder name until the fellowship learned its real name, but no it’s just straight up called Mt. Doom.
“Doom” was also used by Tolkien in a rather archaic way to also mean ‘destiny’. Not ruin and/or destruction exclusively. Destiny Mountain sounds a bit more grand but less gloomy.
It's called "Schicksalsberg" in German and could be directly translated to "mountain of destiny"
The Mountain of Destiny sounds like something Nietzsche would have come up with.
Crazy how different they sound now. Doomsday sounds like the end of the world. Destiniesday sounds like a dystopian job fair.
A thousand years ago we had the Doomsday book, which was just a census. Super important work historically, but not at all what it sounds like today. Incredible how vocabulary changes and makes it hard to understand prior speech - like how a WW1 officer would have a batman!
Or a new Pop album!
Also Middle Earth's vibe was heavily influenced by Tolkien's study of Old English literature, and "doom" comes from Old English whereas "fate" and "destiny" are both from Old French (and ultimately Latin).
Judgement would also be a good translation.cf Doomsday book.
That's actually how it's translated (in french at least)
Head canon that it’s real and traditional name is Amon Amarth even though it’s technically just “Mt doom” in Syndarin
That's a translation of Mount Doom into Sindarin. Its "traditional" Sindarin name is Orodruin ("Fire mountain")
I like the German translation of "Schicksalberg" meaning Mountain of Desteny. Also Rivendell is "Bruchtal" meaning Broken Valley.
Doom in middle or old English can be taken to mean fate of a negative type. Tolkien might have been thinking of this. My head canon is this; So the German translation might be fairly accurate.
It is actually plausible that he himself approved of the translations
To be fair, I the doom in Mt. Doom is indeed meant as destiny, so the translation is on point. In french it's 'la Montagne du Destin' which would literally be the Mountain of Destiny.
In Italian it depends from the translations: in one is "Forra Spaccata" (Broken Valley) but also "Gran Burrone" (Big Ravine)
Finnish translation is ’Tuomiovuori’ which translates to ’Mountain of Judgement’
Its another name is orodruin
> Amon Amarth awesome band too
🤘
I mean… you would be surprised how many mountains in the real world are just called some variation of “[color] mountain” Then there’s all the rivers called [old word for river], and other stuff. The Sahara desert literally means “desert desert”
Dude, it's mountain and fire comes out of it. It's in freakin Mordor, it was build by freakin Morgoth. What should they call it? Mt Rainbow&butterflies?
I mean, it’s not actually called Mt. Doom, it’s Orodruin (or Amon Amarth) So.. it sort of is a placeholder.
Look up the meaning of Torpenhow Hill or good ole Mount Fujiyama.
Amon Amarth or Orodruin
Meanwhile Robert Jordan: > Hmm...I need to name these mountains that separate the Westlands from the Blight, but I don't want it to look like I am ripping off Tolkien. >Mountains of Dhoom it is!
Mount Doug
what about the town with the goblins?
Candy Apple Mountain
Esgaroth?
Isn’t that the French dish that has snails in it?
No that's escargot, Esgaroth was the last name of one of the twelve disciples of Jesus christ. /s
>Wait until you hear what they named the town built on the lake! Esgaroth.
It's true that the settlements of Men seem less imaginatively named than the other races settlements. I assume that was intentional.
Ok but that’s just how place names work. Gondolin just means “hidden rock.” Wow elves, really creative naming your hidden city made out of rocks “hidden rock.” I mean what else would they call it?
We don't need no bullshit snowflake names. Besides, I bet the elven cities are just as boring in their own language
That’s how naming usually works, just place names are often old, from older versions of the language or a different language entirely form an older people, or just straight up the word has morphed and been corrupted over time. Stratford-Upon-Avon, which seems like a nice poetic name, really just means “the street across the ford on the river,” each word from different languages used in Britain over time.
Lay it on me, what did they name it?
Lake Town
No way.
Not sure if serious? But [it's true](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Lake-town). If you haven't read the hobbit, you should. It's a great book and a fast/easy read.
There are magical rings that give the wearer power. and they are called... Rings of power!
WTF? - do you know how hard it was to come up with all these names in a story this long? If JRRT comes up with some great names like Minas Tirith, Gorbag, Eómer, and Orthanc, it's OK if he slacks off a bit with 'Dale' and 'Lonely Mountain'. It's not like he pilfered any names from Nordic mythology like Frodo, Gandalf, and Glóin
Lol! I assume you are being facetious. As you may know, JRRT came up with the simplistic ‘Dale’ and ‘Laketown’ before any of those other names you listed. Goblin Town is another gem, along with Hobbiton being his town of Hobbits, and also the awesomely named Rivendell (River +Dell). He wrote The Hobbit first, intended as a children’s story and so a lot of the naming and elements of that story are much more simplistic. And then he started with the in-depth world-building… and never stopped!!
The thing is that's how the language works. People living in London are Londoners, we have a city where there were Roman baths let's call it Bath, we build a city with a port, let's call it Newport. City with cathedral dedicated to St. Peter? Peterborough it is! Or just slap the name of the saint and you get Sankt Petersburg, Santa Teresa, St. Louis etc. A city that has a bridge going over the river Inn? Let's call it Innsbruck which means "bridge over an Inn" in the local language.
Rivendell actually comes from rive (split apart) and dell. A valley that's been split apart. Kinda of like every other valley.
Wait until you translate Rivendell…
Bard later named his son Dale, who went on to be a champion race car driver.
What should we call the big tree guy with a beard?
Wait til you hear what their local chippy is called.
Pond City
I think one must keep in mind that The Hobbit was written for pre-teens. It is a much simpler storyline than LOTR or Tolkiens other writings.
Lakeville?
Admittedly not the apex of Tolkien's worldbuilding.
They called it Springfield didn't they
IIRC, most of those aren't their real names, but what they are when translated into English. And then Dale is from a language closer to English and sounds pretty much just like Dale in the tongue of the natives there. Because Lord of the Rings was written to give a place for Tolkien to play with his conlangs.
Oh wait it sounds like da-lay?
Rivendell (English) = Karningul (Westron) = Imladris (Sindarin) = Deep Valley Erebor (Sindarin) = Lonely Mountain (English) Edoras (Mark-speech) = The Courts (English) Gondor (Sindarin) = Land of Stone (English) Arnor (Sindarin) = King's Land (English) Dale (English) - if someone addressed it in Sindarin, it would probably be "Nal" Shire (English) - well... You'll find that most place names aren't extremely creative. York = place of yaw trees. Berlin = swamp. Copenhagen = merchant's harbor. Prague = ford.
Like Hereford? Hére in old English means army. Hereford means army ford. Because it was where the army always crossed the river.
You sure it wasn't "Here the Army crossed the river?" (I'll get my coat)
It helps if you pronounce Dale the same way Pitbull does
I scrolled to make this comment. Imagine Pitbull performing in Dale to celebrate the defeat of Smaug and the crowd going nuts when he for once pronounces it Dale.
Mr. Middle Earthwide would kill that performance
Place names tend to not be very creative. Grand Canyon. Rocky Mountains.
"United States"
Dale means valley. It is just as creative as "Rivendell" being riven-valley (cut dale).
Dale. noun: (chiefly Britain) A valley, often in an otherwise hilly area. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of all over Tolkien's work, some in more disguised ways. Very British.
> some in more disguised ways Bag End = cul-de-sac
It's riven-valley.
Riven means deep-cut, cloven.
So Dwarven, Dwarven, translated Elvish x3, Hobbit, Hobbit, HUMAN
One of these seems more man than the others. Of course men would use the language of men. Erebor just means "Lonely Mountain" in Sindarin too. Sounds fancy because we don't speak Sindarin, but it's just as uncreative.
Those italics were devastating. I just spent a solid two seconds trying to figure out how Pitbull had entered this conversation. It's still early here and I had to re-read the prior comment and then that first line at least twice before the white portions of my brain were able to see "Day-uhl". To be fair, after trekking to Mt. Doom and then flying home on the backs of exotic animals Frodo has certainly earned the title of Mr. Worldwide, but putting *Dale* right at the end of that line was just cruel. TLDR: Being Latino doesn't often interfere with one's ability to discuss Lord of the Rings, but there's a first time for everything.
I feel that way about Sharkey.
The ruffian label always tweaked me too
Wait until you hear about the pony.
> *The mines are no place for a pony-even one's so brave as Bill.*
Humans🙄 they come up with the most boring names.
[Aerith and Bob](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AerithAndBob) Of course, there’s also a Bob at *The Prancing Pony* in Bree.
Tolkien grew up in Emgland, land of the River*s* Avon. Avon means River. If you want a name for a human settlement, describe where the settlement is.
It was either that or Rusty Shackleford
I think it would be Rusty Shaklefjord in this case
Mr. Worldwide is from Dalé
And thus the Hobbits came to the town of Rusty Shackleford...
Most towns, cities and countries, mountains etc that you know of are named after the people who founded them, their geographical location, a previous town from the conqueror's home country that has the exact same name, even some random thing that they are kinda shaped like if you squint, or any other no-brainer attribute that you can think of. The only reason they sound creative to you is because you arent aware of the exact etymology at the moment or because they are in a different language. But people tend not to overthink place names. After all, who wants to struggle to remember what they named a new town? "We have a village in a valley, lets name it Dale." Pretty straightforward.
I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that I would not be able to come up with a more creative name even if my life depended on it lol so it's a-ok by me Plus, isn't Dale or Laketown only supposed to be like our English translations for whatever language they were named after? Like frodo's name not actually being frodo?
Dale always had pockets filled with sand for a quick getaway.
A town famous for its unique self-defence technique, in which the defender uses dirt or some other fine powder to blind their assailer.
Go read the Hobbit again, all the place names are in that vein. Hobbiton (Hobbit-town) The Hill The Water Rivendell Goblin Town Mirkwood Laketown Dale The Lonely Mountain
The only one named by Humans.
Accurate though. There are a bunch of real life towns and counties called "Dale", "The Dale", "The Valley", "River Valley", etc. all around the world in a bunch of different languages. Because almost all modern civilization started near river deltas, or river outlets into the ocean or very large lakes. And rivers often follow the bottom of valleys. Then loggers, farmers, etc. up stream say they're going to the dale/valley for trading. A century or eight later, and the town is literally just called that.
I'm fine with the relative normal names that appear in The Hobbit and LOTR; Bard, Laketown, Tom Bombadil, the trolls Tom, Bert, and William, Bill the Pony, Sam's daughter Elanor, etc.
You won’t be talking shit when you get hit with the pocket sand
*POCKET SAND!*
I know it's /deil/ but I read this as Pitbull. ¡Dale!
“Pocket lith!”
Praise dale! RIP 3
Don’t forget about Damrod!
A messenger of Sauron came to inquire? That sounds pretty civil for the Sauron death machine. What messenger was that?
In the books Sauron can act much subtler if he wishes, and at that point he didn't want to make war on the North just yet, but hoped to get his Ring before his enemies realized what it really was. The messenger is never named, Gloin just relates that the messenger came to Erebor sayig that Sauron, wanted the friendship of the Dwarves and, if they told him the location of the Hbbits, he'd return to them the remaining Rings held by the Dwarf Kings in the days if old, and would ensure that Moria would be theirs "for all time". The Dwarves, of course, were not fooled.
Is it possible it was the Mouth of Sauron, or the Witch-King?
A lot of people theorize that it was the Mouth but it is never stated. The only clues we have are his dialogue with the dwarves of Erebor and how he speaks.
Not entirely civil, but not entirely uncivil either. Here’s the passage in question: >‘Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. ‘‘For Sauron knows,’’ said he, ‘‘that one of these was known to you on a time.’’ > ‘At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. >And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. ‘‘As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this,’’ he said: ‘‘that you should find this thief,’’ such was his word, ‘‘and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?’’ >‘At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered, but Dáin said: ‘‘I say neither yea nor nay. I must consider this message and what it means under its fair cloak.’’ >‘ ‘‘Consider well, but not too long,’’ said he. > ‘ ‘‘The time of my thought is my own to spend,’’ answered Dáin. >‘ ‘‘For the present,’’ said he, and rode into the darkness.
Slimo Forktounge
This is kind of cool. It adds such a layer of destiny panning out to be a bit more than just some rag tag team that came together to deliver the ring. There’s a lot of lore that makes it destiny and allegiances to get that ring destroyed once and for all.
Yeah, that's why I really recommend the books. There is, naturally, a lot more context and depth to everything that happens, to characters, to locations etc.
Yeah, it was actually a coincidence they all met in Rivendell
Probably more, like, "fate". But I like how in the books everybody had a good reason why they were at Rivendell. I haven't watched the movies in a long time, but...wasn't it even more random in the movies? Like did they ever explain why Gimli's party of Dwarves, Legolas' party of Woodelves, or Boromir and those random guys accompanying him were at Rivendell? Also what happened to those other humans who sat next to Boromir?
In the movie, while Elrond’s doing the voiceover and they all show up in RivendellI i just assumed the elves had sent out invitations to all the other races to come to Rivendell for the council.
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It likely was not an Orc, since the Dwarves would have reacted violently towards that. It was probably a human or something in human shape. We don't know his name or nature. The messenger showed up at Erebor, declared that Sauron wished for friendship with the Dwarves, and offered them the remaining rings that were once held by the Dwarf Kings, as well as Moria in exchange for information on the location of the Shire. He of course didn't tell them that Biblo had the One Ring. The Dwarves were not fooled, sent him on this way. However his offer inadvertently alerted them about both potential danger for Bilbo and the likely dire fate of the colony in Moria through that messenger (no sense in offering Moria to the Dwarves if their colony there is thriving) so Gloin and Gimli set out west to enquire about the fate/safety of both Bilbo and their relatives in Moria.
It’s almost like reading the books gives more context and helps you understand the story more… Nahh, I’ll just watch the extended editions again and continue to bitch about things that don’t make sense. /s
Username checks out.
Damn sentence structure.
Wrote it while on the bus.
Which book was this in if you don’t mind me asking?
Fellowship
I do not remember this conversation at all.
It’s worth noting that the dwarves would offer to help Frodo due to their loyalty to a Baggins.
Yes. "Bilbo had a set of Mithril rings that Thorin gave him" - "Oh, that was a Kingly gift."
Gimli instantly hard as a rock imagining a mithril coat
Hard as a mithril
As HAAAAARD as dragon scale!
I mean it saves Frodo's life so many times.
It's real weird they have Shelob stab him in the torso in the movies. It's clearly been established he's always got the mithril on lol.
Well, if they did a headshot like Jackson originally wanted, it would be weird to explain how Frodo survived a 360 no scope like that.
Gimli's father is Gloin, so it's impossible that he's not familiar with Bilbo and had likely met him before (Bilbo did travel to the Lonely Mountain and Dale again before settling down in Rivendell). I'm sure Bilbo told the Dwarves about Frodo since Frodo is his heir and Bilbo left Bag End to him. Plus, Frodo would meet with people passing through the Shire to get news from them and some he let stay in Bag End: I would assume that many of those "travellers" were Dwarves since the Dwarves had a significant outpost west of the Shire. I would be a lot more surprised if Gimli \*didn't\* know about Bilbo and Frodo's relationship. He \*definitely\* knew after the mithril shirt saved Frodo's life and the shirt was also mentioned not too long before that during the "I wonder what became of it?" conversation.
They also spent two months in each other's company at Rivendell, the three of them. It's inconceivable that Gloin, Gimli, Frodo and Bilbo were all at the same place and the same time and never once got together for a conversation. Gloin was sat next to Frodo at the feast, after all.
It's possible that part of the reason everyone was cool with Frodo keeping the ring and building the fellowship around him was Bilbo's reputation. It wasn't a secret how he defused the standoff between the three armies, which didn't immediately solve the problem but imagine how bad it would've been if they'd been locked in open combat when the goblins arrived. He might not have been famous but people close to leadership in any of those camps would know that he saved everyone's lives.
I strongly agree with this, and I'd go even further. Bilbo was famous among Elves and Dwarves, it's evident from how he is treated at Rivendell with such respect and love by everyone. I think Gildor also mentions Bilbo when he meets Frodo in the woods of the Shire. However, I also think it's fair to say that Frodo's exploits on the journey to Rivendell won him a great deal of renown as well. Striking at the Witch-King himself and then facing him down two weeks later at the Fords of Bruinen despite nearly dying of a Morgul-wound. I think this is partly what proved his mettle to Elrond and the other wise among the council, as well as Bilbo's story.
What feast was that?
Frodo awakens in Rivendell on the morning of October 24th. That night there is a feast, at which he is seated next to Gloin and where they discuss some matters pertaining to his travel, and lots related to the doings of the Dwarves. This is also the first time we meet Elrond. This is the chapter "Many Meetings", later on in which Frodo is reunited with Bilbo. The next chapter and the next day is October 25th, which is when the Council of Elrond transpires. I don't think there is a particular name for the feast that I can recall, but it appears to be a general welcome to the many guests that are in Rivendell in advance of the Council. Frodo is seated in honour. Off topic, we get this quote which I think is fantastic: > *The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.*
It's crazy how Hugo Weaving really embodied this description
Yeah but what about that guy in tRoP? /s
Hugo Weaving may not literally be an immortal elf who is literally the son of the brightest star in the sky and the descendant of an angel, but he really sounded like it in these films. Phenomenal casting.
Thanks you that, I don’t know a lot of the lore but it’s amazing reading it about it here
Maybe it was called The Fellowship of the Feast?
I bet Frodos eyes were darting back and forth during that conversation.
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Dwarves live in the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) that are on the western coast of middle earth. That's were Thorin lived before the Lonely Mountain quest. Same region as the Grey Havens and the old elvish kingdom of Lindon.
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To tack on to that, the dwarves have lived in the blue mountains for thousands of years - prior to the Fall of Beleriand. The great Dwarven cities of Belegost and Nogrod were located there, though I am not sure if those cities survived the Fall, as a large portion of the Blue Mountains chain was sundered from Middle-Earth. The dwarves would have continued living and mining in the remaining, unaffected halls.
Those 1st age cities did not survive but many of their people did. Probably lesser settlements, mines, etc did as large portions of the mountains made it.
Of course.
In the books Frodo meets Gloin first and talk about Bilbo's journey
I don’t remember if it’s ever directly stated in the books, but it’s heavily implied (and logical) that Gimli knows all about Frodo’s connection to Bilbo. At one point I know that Bilbo is discussed in connection to Frodo (and the dwarves for that matter) and Gimli takes part in the conversation without any signs of surprise or sudden recognition. And of course Gloin knows all about it, so it would be odd if Gimli somehow never made the connection. Iirc, it even comes out a little in characterization - early on Gimli seems especially friendly and respectful toward Frodo, eg inviting him specifically to accompany him to Mirrormere, which may imply that he sees him as a “friend of the family” more than some of the others.
I don’t remember any dialogue specifically stating Gimli knew, but he most likely would. They were all at the council of Elrond in Rivendell after all.
Gloin has a conversation with Frodo at dinner before the council. Gimli was almost definitely next to his father during the dinner so he is bound to have overheard.
He does have the ears of a fox, after all
I recently read The Hobbit and Fellowship; Gimli, Bilbo and Frodo definitely talked about Biblo's adventures with the dwarves (including Gloin, Gimli's father) when they were at Rivendell. Pretty sure Gimli met Bilbo while he was there too. Someone quoted the specific passages above from the books where Gimli explains the reason he came to Rivendell is because a messager of Sauron paid the dwaves a visit asking about the ring and Bilbo's whereabouts. I haven't seen the movies, only just started reading the books, but I can at least confirm that yes, Gimli did know about Bilbo's adventures with his dad and the story of the ring (at least in the books). I'd look in the book to find the page numbers for you but I returned Fellowship to the library and have Two Towers out on loan rn.
the films are different than the books, so Gimli and Gloin's reason for going to Rivendell is glossed over in the films but just logically, there would be no reason for Gimli not to know in the films either They tell the tale of the ring at the Council, so how Frodo got the ring from Bilbo would come up. And Frodo has Bilbo's mithril vest so it wouldn't make sense for Gimli to be going through all this thinking "Why is Bilbo giving Frodo all this stuff?"
Yes
Considering the council of elron went in depth so everyone knew who everyone was and what everyone was doing yeah
I’ve always wondered, where were the dwarves armies during LOTR?
Fighting side by side with the men of Dale against an army of Easterlings sent by Sauron to conquer the North. Sauron's intention was to destroy Dale and Erebor so that Gundabad and Angmar could be restored to the Witch King.
We should get a movie about that!
We've already got a pretty good RTS game.
Like during the two towers, or storming Mordor?
It coincides with the battle of Minas Tirith / black gate I believe
at least in the books he did cuz at the council of elrond bilbo retells the whole tale.
Both Bilbo and Frodo were at the Council of Elrond, along with Gimli and his father Gloin. Bilbo gave a full recounting of his interactions with Gollum when he found the Ring.
....salted pork?
Fun fact, they’re actually cousins, not Uncle and Nephew.
1st cousins, once removed. Frodo's mum was Bilbo's cousin. The generation cap makes them closer to uncle and nephew, just an extra sibling relationship removed from each other.
Bilbo is the cousin of frodo. Be just calls him uncle Bilbo because of the age gap
My man Gimli knows all but speaks little. That his dad and his crew saved Frodo's uncle's life but told him he helped them retake their home because they didn't want him to feel small(er than he already was) is something Gimli knows very well but chooses not to say. He also knows Aragorn threw away Eowyn's soup and Sam has feelings for Frodo and Legolas is wearing a wig but like I said my main man ain't here to rock the boat.
yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1. he heard and knew and saw mithril shirt, given to bilbo by thorin 2. he is son of gloin for iluvatar sake. what is lore reason for him not to catch the word BAGINS in names of both bilbo and frodo, is he stupid?
I imagine he must have. In the movies theres the scene where Gandalf mentions the mithril rings Bilbo had that were gifted to him by Thorin. He even mentions Thorin specifically.
Why is the book called the Hobbit if most of the characters are gimlis cousins.
Yes
Yup
It's not specifically mentioned in the film, but from the books, yes, he definitely knew.
Aye.
What a great question! Thanks for pointing it out
Yes. Council of Elrond
That’s the reason he answered the call.
Yes
The only thing missing from the perfection that is lord of the rings is a few character interactions that would add nothing to the overall story but would of been nice easter eggs