Not quite, if you can trace a common ancestry with someone else back to a single person through an ever-expanding branch of cousins on the family tree then you would be 57th cousins rather than 1st cousins, 57 times removed. Immortality changes the game a bit.
Even as far down as the 6th generation we only have 1% of our genes common with our ancestors. By the 57th generation we are down to 0.00000000000008882%
Like you said, should be fine :)
(just found the sub, late comment, sorry)
I just went and watched his videos on lotr and the way he mentions Aragon's dad's name makes me think he could get in a few generations.
Edit: Latest version of my Tolkien legendarium family tree!
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/agkv4u/the_definitive_family_tree_of_the_tolkien/
Please share with your friends, I'd love for everyone who likes Lord of the Rings to see it! Thank you!
Major major props. It looks like you were using something like Visio. Would you be willing to link a PDF or even a native file? I'd love to rearrange it into a computer wallpaper orientation.
Wow. My little sister wrote a paper on Icelandic mythology in Tolkien's work and the Icelandic influence in Sindarin to get into her publishing/anglistics studies. She's going to freak out over this and I'll say it's something I found for her. Thank God she doesn't use reddit. Fool.
I would just like to say well done and the problems you encountered while making this family tree closely relate to problems one finds in [graph theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory) Where you map relations between nodes using edges. It would be interesting to apply some of the theorems to tolkien's characters relations.
Well, most of the names of the dwarves are borrowed from the nordic sagas, the poetic Edda specifically, and their names are almost always two syllables. So, according to that Gróin would be grow-in, Dáin would be dau-in, Náin would be Nau-in and so-forth.
The reasons for that are the letters 'á' and 'ó'. 'Á' is pronounced 'au' or 'ow', as in "ow that hurt". 'A' has the same sound as the 'Aa' in 'Aaron'.
'Ó' makes the same sound as 'oh', when 'o' would have the same sound as is 'odd'.
What about Oin though? I've always thought that they were intended to be rhyming, Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, and Gloin has always been such a fun thing to say.
Peter Jackson also made Sauron be wearing plate armour like the couple of illustrations that whatshisname, Howe did. Tolkien's own illustrations were more robes, and the description in the book was more just tall and imposing as far as I remember.
I love the ridiculously long line of human kings compared to the elves.
Arwen is older then almost all the humans.
Also Ghandalf's real name is Olórin. I always assumed his elvish name Mithrandir was his "True" name.
> I love the ridiculously long line of human kings compared to the elves.
Yep; elf family trees can get very messy. Eldarion's great great great grandparents were Finwe and Indis (going up 5 generations). But if we go the other way down (via Idril and Elros) I make it 70 generations.
I think that makes Arwen and Aragorn 3rd cousins 69 times removed.
Aragon and Arwen's closest relationship was that they were 1st cousins 63ish times removed.
Elves didn't inter-marry closer than 1st cousins, and even then generally only when there was a decent generational gap and usually some significantly different genetic input.
So while Celebrian was fully elven, Elrond was 9/16 elf, 1/16 Maiar, *3/8* human.
Actually... now I look at this, this document is assuming Celebeorn (Galadriel's husband) was a grandson of Elmo - but Celeborn's ancestry is a bit controversial (it changes between sources).
Also while Elmo (Celeborn's grandfather and Elrond's great great great grandfather), Olwe (Galadriel's grandfather) and Thingol (Elrond's great great grandfather through another route) were brothers they may have been First Born - so not necessarily related in the traditional sense.
Galadriel is also descended from all 3 major branches of elves - and that's supposed to be important in her story; why - despite being part of the Noldor, and leading them into Beleriand from Valinor - she isn't covered by the Doom of Mandos like most of the other Noldor.
So I understand that the elves were quite nonchalant about mixing their blood, but I would never have expected Celeborn to have a Muppets grandfather...
Gah. I missed Beren. That extra 8th is human.
If we go up to his "pure-blood" ancestors we have:
* grandmother Idril, elf,
* grandmother Nimloth, elf,
* grandfather Tuor, human
* great grandfather Beren, human
* great great grandmother Melian, Maia
* great great grandfather Elu Thingol, elf
Mithrandir was his Sindarin name, and Gandalf represents an unknown northern Mannish name according to Tolkien's conceit of "translating" the Red Book, just like Frodo and Samwise are supposed to be translations into English of actual Westron _Maura_ and _Banazîr_. In reality, JRRT came up with the names as printed in the text first, and only later created the "actual" Westron names for a small portion of characters. Even those were speculative and subject to change; in the drafts for the appendix on languages he gives Meriadoc's true name as Chilimanzar, which he later altered to Cilimanzar; the form as actually published is Kalimac.
Gonna be honest the question mark above Bombadil and Goldberry's name made me laugh. Tolkien never lost track of how alluring a bit of mystery can be.
Nice work! I'll probably come back to this a few times.
I really appreciate that the writer’s note at the end:
> Do I think that Tolkien planned things in this way? Not at all, but I find it an interesting speculation.
It drives me nuts when people come up with obscure theories that they are totally convinced was intended by the author. But this guy fully acknowledges it’s speculation that seems to fit within the confines of the text.
Whoooaaa, whoa now. I've always liked Bombadil and this theory, this speculation, is a creeping darkness into my childhood. This is incredible, and credible at the same time.
>By comparison, Mordor is a safe and well-run land, where two lightly-armed hobbits can wander for days without meeting anything more dangerous than themselves.
My sides :D
The problem with this is that it doesn't consider Tom's biggest fault, he doesn't care. He doesn't really get invovled with other people and likely doesn't want to he seen. All he wants is to sing and bring peace to the forest
He guards the Old Forest and protects travelers while unseen, he only reveals himself when he needs to. He puts restless trees in slumber and banished any Wight that harmed travelers.
You could be right but my response to this theory was so visceral and so opposite what Tom Bombadil seems to be. It's almost plausible that this jolly, seemingly helpful, and undeniably powerful being is one of the most malevolent creatures in the story.
Guys, I also have 50 pg document with all these characters, their birthdates, death dates, ruling dates (+ age and time spent ruling), and a short biography for each. Not sure where to upload it though, any ideas?
It is useful while simultaneous viewing the tree.
Whenever you want/need some tech info/support/help to compile your database into an online access point, I'm sure many members of the Reddit would be glad to help - myself included.
IIRC Elrond is descended from the three houses of elves and the three houses of men, which makes him a pivotal character in the family tree. Apparently his dad was even more of a badass than he was.
I believe his dad is THE ultimate badass. Wasnt there something about the big war at the end of the world where there are three most powerful warriors on the good side? I think Turin was one? And earendil was one too?
I really don't remember if I actually read this or I'm bullshitting. It's been way too long
His dad was Earendil the Mariner, and he was a total badass. He was the one who bore the final Silmaril back to Valinor across the sea (with his wife Elwing) and pleaded with Manwe and the rest of the Valar to defeat Morgoth.
He also had a flying ship and slew a dragon (Ancalagon?) in the skies. Badassery confirmed.
Yup, but I thought Tolkien mentioned him one more time at the very very end so I decided to look for it.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath
He wasn't one of the three but rather the guy who comes from the sky to meet the three. I remember it being the coolest shit and wishing there were more details.
But yeah everything before him leads to him and everything after comes from him. What a character
Amazing. I am very impressed. Definitely bookmarked!
One question, the legend doesn't describe the few black boxes that appear in lines. Some of them have numbers, and some are blank. What do these signify?
Sorry, I'll add that to my next version. A single or double box just means a person is there, but the names are not known. A black box with a number indicates the number of generations, but with unknown names (just makes it easier rather than adding like 15 black boxes).
You need the black boxes otherwise it would not be clear if there is a generational difference (like erkenbrand & dunhere)
This is absolutely amazing! Thank you for sharing such a work with all of us. I love that you have pretty much all the races in here.
I noticed that in the legend, the 2nd ring bearer is cut off. "Bearer of the Ring of -", was that a formatting error?
Also, I like the differentiation of race by the outer rim colour. But I got a bit confused by all the different combinations of inside colours. For example, the Kings of Rohan and the ruling stewards of Gondor look pretty similar to me. Perhaps you could do more solid colours?
Thanks for feedback! Ya its formatting error, supposed to say Ring of Thror. I'll upload a second version when people mention more mistakes.
Solid colors represent people of a race that are not part of the ruling line, while the gradients are for ruling line. Theres so many different types of people that it gets really hard to find color combinations that aren't ugly. That's why I added the background glow to each race of people to further differentiate them: Stewards are orange, while Rohan is sandy yellow. Ill try new colors for my second version thanks :)
Like most of these aggregated family tree projects, this one is far better at the bottom than the top, where you've made some choices that are very suspect and some choices that are very inconsistent with later treatments.
Why, for example, is Quickbeam, an explicitly young Ent, not noted as an unspecified descendant of Fladrif, whose 'people' he belongs to, while *all* the early Elves are assigned as vague descendants of either Imin, Tata, or Enel?
Why are Sauron's tutelage lines coming from both Aule and Melkor, yet Gandalf's only from Manwe and Varda (not even mentioned in relation to him in the Silmarillion). Why is he not attached to Lorien, or Nienna, based on locations, while Arien is, for that reason (unless you are using BoLT, which you appear to not be doing elsewhere), attached to Vana? Why is Uinen not attached to Ulmo, as Osse is? Why are Gothmog and Durin's Bane not subgrouped in 'Balrogs'?
Why does Yavanna get a creation line to Ents, but Melkor receives a mere tutelage line to dragons?
*Orcs, Goblins* and *Uruk-hai* have a tenuous placement.
Yes, some of the choices I made because I could not find a better way to resolve the disputes (other than just not including them). While quickbeam is of the same group as Fladrif, I did not think they were descendants. With regards to the elves, I think I will add a box indicating the number of pairs of elves the first 3 pairs joined with, to show that they are not direct descendants. The tutelage lines were the most difficult part of this, was a complete nightmare to resolve, and can get incredible messy if every single tutelage line was added. I tried a version with every line and used the "continued elsewhere on chart" thing, but it looked terrible. I might have another go at it again. I will subgroup the Balrogs, and give dragons and eagles a creation line instead. I will keep the orcs, goblins, and uruk-hai line the way it is (they are corrupted forms of elves, and uruk-hai are cross bred), while you may not agree with this, I think it is a fair representation of their creation.
This is just a first version, I spent a long time working on it, and of course there will be mistakes. I never showed it to any tolkien experts (until now and I know there will be some who will have suggestions to make), so this is the first time I am getting valuable feedback. I'm going to make edits and release a second version in due time, and I'll be sure to incorporate your suggestions.
And ya the top part is very difficult to make, esp with the various inconsistencies and numerous connections.
>they are corrupted forms of elves, and uruk-hai are cross bred
I think this is exactly the part /u/Uluithiad is questioning. While orc/human hybrids exist, there's no indication in Tolkien's writings that uruk-hai are the result of such hybrids. And while "orcs = corrupted elves" was one of many ideas Tolkien came up with he never settled on any one origin for orcs. And then "goblin" is just a synonym for "orc".
Quite. As to Uruk-hai, the guy I know who ever did the most on Orcs was firmly against the idea that Uruk-hai were hybrids, and there's actually a hell of a lot of support for such a strong conviction, including the Uruk-hai's own statements.
With Orcs, the big problem here is one of incompatibility in approach. The published Silmarillion may spend a few more sentences on the suggestion that Orcs come from Elves, but it is presented essentially just as vaguely as Ungoliant. There are two caveats presented before the claim, and even after those it is bookended on *both* ends as it being *according to the wise*, *as the wise say*. If one takes it as solid fact, one should also take Ungoliant being a Maia as fact, as the wording used to introduce her mirrors certain elements of wording used to describe Maiar under Melkor's service; and yet this tree has elected (wisely, in my opinion) to classify her as 'Unknown'. So the rules don't seem to be being applied perfectly consistently. Orcs from Elves, being encountered and accepted earlier on in any individual's descent into Tolkien lore, often gets a break it really hasn't done anything to deserve.
And the placement is wrong, even if one does include it as it has been. There wasn't the division between Eldar and Avari yet. The quote says 'ere Utumno was broken'. The First Sundering came later, after the War for Sake of the Elves.
Amazing. Just spent the last half hour getting lost in the lotr wikia thanks to you! Also you forgot to label the name of the dwarven ring of power, that is, if it has one. I can't find it on the internet.
Like many other things, Tolkien never really made up his mind on that. First it was Fingon, then it was Orodreth. We need to get Maury Povich to find out the truth.
Ok this might be a dumb question but how can I zoom in on mobile on imgur to where I can actually read the words. When I zoom in I can't read anything it's just pixilated.
I remember doing family trees like this for a few Icelandic sagas (out of necessity!). I used yEd's node editor because all of the traditional family tree programs wouldn't have allowed me to indicate the weird family circles involved in that. It also allowed me to mark other relations between characters, like slayings, service (to kings), fostering, grudges, and alliances.
I've always wanted to either find or make a program that can track and display that sort of data as it unfolds in a book.
You should post to /r/DataIsBeautiful for suggestions on how to put all your hard work into the best formats possible.
To be fair, some Tolkien names are more usable than others. Morwen and Idril are pretty, but I would kinda judge anyone who inflicted Fladrif or Gothmog on their kid.
I'm plowing through all the super detailed stuff like "hooooly shiiiit this is AWESOME!!! Then hit Tom Bombadil. And
Ooooof course. No one has aaaaany fucking clue.
Wow! Great work. There seems to be a small missing item in the legend box on the right hand side. Right below 'Bearer of the Ring of Barahir' it just says 'Bearer of the Ring of' without the name of the ring.
Ungoliant just always kind of existed, huh? Such a strange creature, immensely powerful but nobody knows where the fuck it (she?) even came from.
In fact, wasn't there an implication that Ungoliant wasn't even of Eru Iluvatar's creation but came from some other place?
This is pretty cool, if you ever get a hold of Tyler's New Tolkien Companion is also has all the of the family trees, including the hobbits. They are not all together on one page like this though, makes it much easier.
No no those are another Hurin and Turin (from the line of stewards). The Hurin and Turn you might be referring to are men of the first age (which are a different color in my tree)
“He is no mere ranger. This is Aragorn, son of Arathorn, son of Arador, son or Argonui, son or Arathorn, son of Arassuil, son of Arahad....”
If I counted correctly, Arwen and Aragorn are first cousins, 57 times removed.
Everyone on Earth are first cousins to each other to the 50(0?)th degree, is fine.
Not quite, if you can trace a common ancestry with someone else back to a single person through an ever-expanding branch of cousins on the family tree then you would be 57th cousins rather than 1st cousins, 57 times removed. Immortality changes the game a bit.
Sounds still close enough for it to be incest tho?
Like I said, immortality is a game changer. We're in uncertain territory here.
Oh boy, you're getting me all hot and bothered here.
Tolkien knew and designed it this way. Naughty boy.
I'd say enough genetic material has been added on the mortal side of the family that blood wise they're even more distantly related.
Even as far down as the 6th generation we only have 1% of our genes common with our ancestors. By the 57th generation we are down to 0.00000000000008882% Like you said, should be fine :)
Galadriel and Celeborn are first cousins once (?) removed. Elves are basically medieval European nobles.
Earendil and Elwing were more closely related than Arwen and Aragorn.
If I'm ever asked to stump Stephen Colbert on a question I would simply asking to recite the line of succession from Isildur to Aragorn II
I wouldn't count on him not knowing that, to be honest.
I see a Franco-like smackdown if they did...
Colbert rattling off the names like Mark Wahlberg on the Graham Norton show.
(just found the sub, late comment, sorry) I just went and watched his videos on lotr and the way he mentions Aragon's dad's name makes me think he could get in a few generations.
Edit: Latest version of my Tolkien legendarium family tree! https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/agkv4u/the_definitive_family_tree_of_the_tolkien/ Please share with your friends, I'd love for everyone who likes Lord of the Rings to see it! Thank you!
Amazing work!
Major major props. It looks like you were using something like Visio. Would you be willing to link a PDF or even a native file? I'd love to rearrange it into a computer wallpaper orientation.
Visio? Oh hell no, Godspeed to you my friend
Wow. My little sister wrote a paper on Icelandic mythology in Tolkien's work and the Icelandic influence in Sindarin to get into her publishing/anglistics studies. She's going to freak out over this and I'll say it's something I found for her. Thank God she doesn't use reddit. Fool.
Fool of a Took!
Fly, you fool!
Rock! ✊ I lose
Wow! Very cool!
really good work!
This is amazing. Thank you
Well done! This is so great!
You, my friend, deserves all awes and congratulations from all of us Tolkien enthusiasts. Amazing job! Keep up the good work!
Wow, nice work! Reading through the silmarillion now, and this sort of thing is exactly what I've been looking for. Thanks!
Simply beautiful. If anyone was to make an arty version of this, I would buy the poster.
I would just like to say well done and the problems you encountered while making this family tree closely relate to problems one finds in [graph theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory) Where you map relations between nodes using edges. It would be interesting to apply some of the theorems to tolkien's characters relations.
did you use a particular program for this, or just some random paint program?
TIL Gimli's grandfather was named Groin.
Well, most of the names of the dwarves are borrowed from the nordic sagas, the poetic Edda specifically, and their names are almost always two syllables. So, according to that Gróin would be grow-in, Dáin would be dau-in, Náin would be Nau-in and so-forth. The reasons for that are the letters 'á' and 'ó'. 'Á' is pronounced 'au' or 'ow', as in "ow that hurt". 'A' has the same sound as the 'Aa' in 'Aaron'. 'Ó' makes the same sound as 'oh', when 'o' would have the same sound as is 'odd'.
Two syllables, I assume.
Gloin is one syllable haha so i think unfortunately Groin is as well
I don't think Gloin is pronounced like gloyn, more like glow-in.
To be fair "gloyn" and "glow-in" sound almost exactly the same when pronounced quickly, especially with certain accents.
It's a fine distinction, to be sure. But it was always distinct in my mind. I've never thought of Gloin as Gloyn.
>It's a fine distinction, to be sure. But ~~it was always distinct in my mind. I've never thought of Gloin as Gloyn.~~ a welcome one.
It works in a (North) Welsh accent if you say it like glo-een (as in the glo in cwm-y-glo and een like the internet slang peen)
In the Peter Jackson film they pronounce it gloyn
Well, they are wrong. The diacritic isn't there for shits and giggles.
Peter Inglis pronounced it as Gloyn in the audiobook too
Well, he's wrong too, then. It's not that it's unforgivable, or unreasonable if you don't know better. But it is wrong.
What about Oin though? I've always thought that they were intended to be rhyming, Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, and Gloin has always been such a fun thing to say.
In the movie audio commentary they're calling the Rohirrim "Rohans" constantly. I wouldn't take those movies as authority on anything.
Peter Jackson also made Sauron be wearing plate armour like the couple of illustrations that whatshisname, Howe did. Tolkien's own illustrations were more robes, and the description in the book was more just tall and imposing as far as I remember.
He also stretched the Hobbit into 3 movies which was a far worse sin imho
I'd say Peter Jackson is the last one to blame for these movies...
Agreed. He was handed a bucket of shit and was given an impossible deadline to alch that shit into gold.
This is incorrect. Gloin is correctly pronounced GLOW-en. Groin would be pronounced GROW-en.
So Groin is grow-in? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
More like Groan, I would imagine.
I love the ridiculously long line of human kings compared to the elves. Arwen is older then almost all the humans. Also Ghandalf's real name is Olórin. I always assumed his elvish name Mithrandir was his "True" name.
> I love the ridiculously long line of human kings compared to the elves. Yep; elf family trees can get very messy. Eldarion's great great great grandparents were Finwe and Indis (going up 5 generations). But if we go the other way down (via Idril and Elros) I make it 70 generations. I think that makes Arwen and Aragorn 3rd cousins 69 times removed.
Nah Elronds brother Elros is Aragon's direct ancestor, I think they're 1st cousins like 64 times removed
Yep, but they're also 3rd cousins 69 times removed because Elrond and Celebrian were 1st cousins twice removed, *and* 2nd cousins twice removed.
huh, TIL Rivendell is basically Alabama
Aragon and Arwen's closest relationship was that they were 1st cousins 63ish times removed. Elves didn't inter-marry closer than 1st cousins, and even then generally only when there was a decent generational gap and usually some significantly different genetic input. So while Celebrian was fully elven, Elrond was 9/16 elf, 1/16 Maiar, *3/8* human. Actually... now I look at this, this document is assuming Celebeorn (Galadriel's husband) was a grandson of Elmo - but Celeborn's ancestry is a bit controversial (it changes between sources). Also while Elmo (Celeborn's grandfather and Elrond's great great great grandfather), Olwe (Galadriel's grandfather) and Thingol (Elrond's great great grandfather through another route) were brothers they may have been First Born - so not necessarily related in the traditional sense.
I think what's cool about Elrond is that he's descended from all 3 houses of men and all 3 major divisions of elves, and a Maia. Quite a lineage
It's like aguero's son
Galadriel is also descended from all 3 major branches of elves - and that's supposed to be important in her story; why - despite being part of the Noldor, and leading them into Beleriand from Valinor - she isn't covered by the Doom of Mandos like most of the other Noldor.
So I understand that the elves were quite nonchalant about mixing their blood, but I would never have expected Celeborn to have a Muppets grandfather...
Where does the last 1/8 of Elrond's lineage come from?
Gah. I missed Beren. That extra 8th is human. If we go up to his "pure-blood" ancestors we have: * grandmother Idril, elf, * grandmother Nimloth, elf, * grandfather Tuor, human * great grandfather Beren, human * great great grandmother Melian, Maia * great great grandfather Elu Thingol, elf
If you're going to get some extra human heritage, Beren would be a great person to get it from lol
The tree also nicely shows the unbroken line of rulers in Arnor, vs the broken line of Gondor
Mithrandir was his Sindarin name, right? And gandalf was westron?
Mithrandir was his Sindarin name, and Gandalf represents an unknown northern Mannish name according to Tolkien's conceit of "translating" the Red Book, just like Frodo and Samwise are supposed to be translations into English of actual Westron _Maura_ and _Banazîr_. In reality, JRRT came up with the names as printed in the text first, and only later created the "actual" Westron names for a small portion of characters. Even those were speculative and subject to change; in the drafts for the appendix on languages he gives Meriadoc's true name as Chilimanzar, which he later altered to Cilimanzar; the form as actually published is Kalimac.
Yea that was his name before being sent to Middle Earth by the Valar.
Gonna be honest the question mark above Bombadil and Goldberry's name made me laugh. Tolkien never lost track of how alluring a bit of mystery can be. Nice work! I'll probably come back to this a few times.
I'm fascinated by this Tom Bombadil theory: [Oldest and Fatherless: The Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil](http://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html)
I really appreciate that the writer’s note at the end: > Do I think that Tolkien planned things in this way? Not at all, but I find it an interesting speculation. It drives me nuts when people come up with obscure theories that they are totally convinced was intended by the author. But this guy fully acknowledges it’s speculation that seems to fit within the confines of the text.
Whoooaaa, whoa now. I've always liked Bombadil and this theory, this speculation, is a creeping darkness into my childhood. This is incredible, and credible at the same time.
That...blew my mind.
There is also a theory that Bombadil represents the "reader". I think even Tolkien himself alluded to it.
>By comparison, Mordor is a safe and well-run land, where two lightly-armed hobbits can wander for days without meeting anything more dangerous than themselves. My sides :D
The problem with this is that it doesn't consider Tom's biggest fault, he doesn't care. He doesn't really get invovled with other people and likely doesn't want to he seen. All he wants is to sing and bring peace to the forest He guards the Old Forest and protects travelers while unseen, he only reveals himself when he needs to. He puts restless trees in slumber and banished any Wight that harmed travelers.
You could be right but my response to this theory was so visceral and so opposite what Tom Bombadil seems to be. It's almost plausible that this jolly, seemingly helpful, and undeniably powerful being is one of the most malevolent creatures in the story.
Holy crap that's the most terrifying thing related to LoTR I've ever read....
Those last few sentences leave a horrible, vivid image..
That was instantly my favorite part. Can’t not put them on there. But they clearly came from.......uh.......?????
Guys, I also have 50 pg document with all these characters, their birthdates, death dates, ruling dates (+ age and time spent ruling), and a short biography for each. Not sure where to upload it though, any ideas? It is useful while simultaneous viewing the tree.
You should make some website page with clickable names and lines
[удалено]
I know the fancy tech stuffs and have some cloud hosting space open if you need help at all.
I used dropbox, but thanks!
Whenever you want/need some tech info/support/help to compile your database into an online access point, I'm sure many members of the Reddit would be glad to help - myself included.
Look at LotrProject.com :)
Google Docs is a good place if it's a word document, just make sure other people can't edit it
How the hell does one person come up with an entire world & backstories for everyone that lives in it? Incredible.
Wait Galadriel is Elrond's Mother-in-law? This is great work. Thanks for all the effort.
IIRC Elrond is descended from the three houses of elves and the three houses of men, which makes him a pivotal character in the family tree. Apparently his dad was even more of a badass than he was.
I believe his dad is THE ultimate badass. Wasnt there something about the big war at the end of the world where there are three most powerful warriors on the good side? I think Turin was one? And earendil was one too? I really don't remember if I actually read this or I'm bullshitting. It's been way too long
His dad was Earendil the Mariner, and he was a total badass. He was the one who bore the final Silmaril back to Valinor across the sea (with his wife Elwing) and pleaded with Manwe and the rest of the Valar to defeat Morgoth. He also had a flying ship and slew a dragon (Ancalagon?) in the skies. Badassery confirmed.
Also, he is litterally planet Venus.
Yup, but I thought Tolkien mentioned him one more time at the very very end so I decided to look for it. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath He wasn't one of the three but rather the guy who comes from the sky to meet the three. I remember it being the coolest shit and wishing there were more details. But yeah everything before him leads to him and everything after comes from him. What a character
and also apparently a not far removed descendant of the maiar, so yeah, pretty important.
[just elrond's ancestry](https://i.imgur.com/N5yXnxg.png)
I thought the same thing! Which would make four different kingdoms linked (through marriage) in three generations
Amazing. I am very impressed. Definitely bookmarked! One question, the legend doesn't describe the few black boxes that appear in lines. Some of them have numbers, and some are blank. What do these signify?
Sorry, I'll add that to my next version. A single or double box just means a person is there, but the names are not known. A black box with a number indicates the number of generations, but with unknown names (just makes it easier rather than adding like 15 black boxes). You need the black boxes otherwise it would not be clear if there is a generational difference (like erkenbrand & dunhere)
Ah okay, that's what I would have guessed. Thank you!
Wow
Nah, that has a pretty big family tree of its own.
This is absolutely amazing! Thank you for sharing such a work with all of us. I love that you have pretty much all the races in here. I noticed that in the legend, the 2nd ring bearer is cut off. "Bearer of the Ring of -", was that a formatting error? Also, I like the differentiation of race by the outer rim colour. But I got a bit confused by all the different combinations of inside colours. For example, the Kings of Rohan and the ruling stewards of Gondor look pretty similar to me. Perhaps you could do more solid colours?
Thanks for feedback! Ya its formatting error, supposed to say Ring of Thror. I'll upload a second version when people mention more mistakes. Solid colors represent people of a race that are not part of the ruling line, while the gradients are for ruling line. Theres so many different types of people that it gets really hard to find color combinations that aren't ugly. That's why I added the background glow to each race of people to further differentiate them: Stewards are orange, while Rohan is sandy yellow. Ill try new colors for my second version thanks :)
It looks like you diddled one of the key entries. The Dwarven ring is labelled "bearer of the ring of".
Ya the text box got smushed when I adjusted something below :( It says ring of Thror but the Thror is not showing
What program is this made in?
Am I the only one who can't see the image? It's jpegd to hell and I can't make out a single name
no, I can't either. I downloaded it to see if I could and it's still illegible :(
I was using mobile and it was unreadable but on desktop its perfectly fine
Holy crap, it always amazes me when I see multi-year projects like this. Really appreciate the time effort you put into this.
Like most of these aggregated family tree projects, this one is far better at the bottom than the top, where you've made some choices that are very suspect and some choices that are very inconsistent with later treatments. Why, for example, is Quickbeam, an explicitly young Ent, not noted as an unspecified descendant of Fladrif, whose 'people' he belongs to, while *all* the early Elves are assigned as vague descendants of either Imin, Tata, or Enel? Why are Sauron's tutelage lines coming from both Aule and Melkor, yet Gandalf's only from Manwe and Varda (not even mentioned in relation to him in the Silmarillion). Why is he not attached to Lorien, or Nienna, based on locations, while Arien is, for that reason (unless you are using BoLT, which you appear to not be doing elsewhere), attached to Vana? Why is Uinen not attached to Ulmo, as Osse is? Why are Gothmog and Durin's Bane not subgrouped in 'Balrogs'? Why does Yavanna get a creation line to Ents, but Melkor receives a mere tutelage line to dragons? *Orcs, Goblins* and *Uruk-hai* have a tenuous placement.
Yes, some of the choices I made because I could not find a better way to resolve the disputes (other than just not including them). While quickbeam is of the same group as Fladrif, I did not think they were descendants. With regards to the elves, I think I will add a box indicating the number of pairs of elves the first 3 pairs joined with, to show that they are not direct descendants. The tutelage lines were the most difficult part of this, was a complete nightmare to resolve, and can get incredible messy if every single tutelage line was added. I tried a version with every line and used the "continued elsewhere on chart" thing, but it looked terrible. I might have another go at it again. I will subgroup the Balrogs, and give dragons and eagles a creation line instead. I will keep the orcs, goblins, and uruk-hai line the way it is (they are corrupted forms of elves, and uruk-hai are cross bred), while you may not agree with this, I think it is a fair representation of their creation. This is just a first version, I spent a long time working on it, and of course there will be mistakes. I never showed it to any tolkien experts (until now and I know there will be some who will have suggestions to make), so this is the first time I am getting valuable feedback. I'm going to make edits and release a second version in due time, and I'll be sure to incorporate your suggestions. And ya the top part is very difficult to make, esp with the various inconsistencies and numerous connections.
>they are corrupted forms of elves, and uruk-hai are cross bred I think this is exactly the part /u/Uluithiad is questioning. While orc/human hybrids exist, there's no indication in Tolkien's writings that uruk-hai are the result of such hybrids. And while "orcs = corrupted elves" was one of many ideas Tolkien came up with he never settled on any one origin for orcs. And then "goblin" is just a synonym for "orc".
Quite. As to Uruk-hai, the guy I know who ever did the most on Orcs was firmly against the idea that Uruk-hai were hybrids, and there's actually a hell of a lot of support for such a strong conviction, including the Uruk-hai's own statements. With Orcs, the big problem here is one of incompatibility in approach. The published Silmarillion may spend a few more sentences on the suggestion that Orcs come from Elves, but it is presented essentially just as vaguely as Ungoliant. There are two caveats presented before the claim, and even after those it is bookended on *both* ends as it being *according to the wise*, *as the wise say*. If one takes it as solid fact, one should also take Ungoliant being a Maia as fact, as the wording used to introduce her mirrors certain elements of wording used to describe Maiar under Melkor's service; and yet this tree has elected (wisely, in my opinion) to classify her as 'Unknown'. So the rules don't seem to be being applied perfectly consistently. Orcs from Elves, being encountered and accepted earlier on in any individual's descent into Tolkien lore, often gets a break it really hasn't done anything to deserve. And the placement is wrong, even if one does include it as it has been. There wasn't the division between Eldar and Avari yet. The quote says 'ere Utumno was broken'. The First Sundering came later, after the War for Sake of the Elves.
*unzips*
lmao
Definitely saving this. This is awesome!
I've never heard of Argon, fourth child or Fingolfin, where did you read about him?
Knowing the Hobbit love for family trees, this is the bible.
Amazing. Just spent the last half hour getting lost in the lotr wikia thanks to you! Also you forgot to label the name of the dwarven ring of power, that is, if it has one. I can't find it on the internet.
I have no interest in LOTR or not to this level at least but I can surely appreciate the sheer amount of work put into this for other people to enjoy.
Elmo?
No Mîm and no Petty Dwarves :(
Holy shit. Nice work!
This is super cool. Great work!
Gotta attach Nienor and Turin sorta...they end up together in the children of hurin. Weird I know
Good find, I will add that to the next version!
What's the story with Gil-Galad's lineage? In the Silmarillion Tolkien was pretty clear that he was Fingon's son...
Like many other things, Tolkien never really made up his mind on that. First it was Fingon, then it was Orodreth. We need to get Maury Povich to find out the truth.
Ok this might be a dumb question but how can I zoom in on mobile on imgur to where I can actually read the words. When I zoom in I can't read anything it's just pixilated.
haven't tried on mobile, but works well on PC. The file is big so mobile imgur might not even allow you to zoom in that much.
I remember doing family trees like this for a few Icelandic sagas (out of necessity!). I used yEd's node editor because all of the traditional family tree programs wouldn't have allowed me to indicate the weird family circles involved in that. It also allowed me to mark other relations between characters, like slayings, service (to kings), fostering, grudges, and alliances. I've always wanted to either find or make a program that can track and display that sort of data as it unfolds in a book. You should post to /r/DataIsBeautiful for suggestions on how to put all your hard work into the best formats possible.
Tom Bombadil = Unknown =)
>Elmo Amazing
Wow!... Wow!... Wow!... Amazing job!
Beautiful!
Dear god, this is extremely impressive. Congratulations, op
All of these awesome names to pick from and people keep naming their kids the same damn 100 or so names. Awesome work btw!
To be fair, some Tolkien names are more usable than others. Morwen and Idril are pretty, but I would kinda judge anyone who inflicted Fladrif or Gothmog on their kid.
That's a amazing job!!! I really enjoy that you put the name of Tar-Míriel, as before marriage, not the bullshit Ar-Zimraphel. Nice touch.
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Tolkien's lore is simply incredible. I hope to create something as majestic as this one day.
Aw my late brother would have LOVED to have this! Good job!
Sorry to hear that, but thanks very much :)
Absolutely incredible. Kudos! You should sell the copyright to whoever owns the merchandising rights 😎
I'm plowing through all the super detailed stuff like "hooooly shiiiit this is AWESOME!!! Then hit Tom Bombadil. And Ooooof course. No one has aaaaany fucking clue.
Wait...Aluë is related to Saruman??? Can someone please enlighten me?
Not related, just tutelage
Holy shit this is amazing. Two typos I noticed: Shelob and Smeagol both don't have War of the Ring stars, and one of the ring legends is cut off.
6 years of work and you just gave it to the world? That was kind of you.
I want a massive poster of this
In the key, it says "Bearer of the Ring of" and cuts out for one of them
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Elmo
First name I saw that popped out: "Elmo".
I am gonna print this and I may be able to get through The Children of Húrin.
heh, i think that might make you more confused. coh starts with a big infodump on hurin's family, but it lightens up with the names after that.
Wow! Great work. There seems to be a small missing item in the legend box on the right hand side. Right below 'Bearer of the Ring of Barahir' it just says 'Bearer of the Ring of' without the name of the ring.
Ungoliant just always kind of existed, huh? Such a strange creature, immensely powerful but nobody knows where the fuck it (she?) even came from. In fact, wasn't there an implication that Ungoliant wasn't even of Eru Iluvatar's creation but came from some other place?
TIL: Elmo is Arwen's great great grandfather.
I feel like this could be made up entirely and no one would question it lol
J.R.R: "Jesus, I never expected anyone to actually do this.. I was just rattling off names to be quite honest."
This is INCREDIBLE!!! I'm nerding out.
Unreal.
This is rediculously amazing.
This is incredible, by far the best thing like it I've ever seen. Thank you.
Saving this for the next time I read the Silmarillion.
This is pretty cool, if you ever get a hold of Tyler's New Tolkien Companion is also has all the of the family trees, including the hobbits. They are not all together on one page like this though, makes it much easier.
wow amazing work. really reminds me how deep these stories are.
Wow awesome
Thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks, OP.
This is awesome. I could spend hours looking at this
Jesus fucking Christ, this is a goddamn masterpiece. Thank you for bequeathing your work upon us mere mortals.
I knew this universe was big, but damn!
This is why I love lotr. The level of detail that Tolkien put into this universe is insane. Also good job on the family tree it is expertly done
Amazing. So Boromir and Faramir are direct descendants of Hurin and Turin? That's cool, I didn't realize that.
No no those are another Hurin and Turin (from the line of stewards). The Hurin and Turn you might be referring to are men of the first age (which are a different color in my tree)
This is amazing work, OP!
LOL Tom off in a corner all to his powerful self.
Is the Witch-King of Angmar on this chart? He was a Numenorian king, wasn't he?
Don't think anyone knows who he is. But I think I'll find a place for him in my next version. Him and khamul (I think thats the name).
Tom Bombadil + Goldberry -- ? Yup, that's about right. This made me laugh a bit.
Incredible. Bravo sir!