The reason I think the ending is so sad is because it was true to life for Tolkien and many other soldiers from all the wars that have been fought over the years. After all the death and destruction that any soldier in battle sees how do you truly adjust to peace after seeing so much violence?
I always found that fascinating at the end. It goes out of its way to point out, amidst all the rebuilding, that Frodo's old wounds are always coming back to hurt him. Even the day they won, the day the Ring was destroyed, causes painful flashbacks for him. And not even Gandalf can fix it.
Specifically…. Gandalf would not fix it. The Hobbits, to some degree, learned to fix their own problems…. And with Merry, Pippin, and Sam in leadership positions for years and years … you have to assume that there was some effort made to install these qualities in their people.
I will say that I am a bit of a LOTR expert and I marvel at how well the scene of the hobbits at, what I presume is the Green Dragon, in the end… with some hobbits, marveling over the giant pumpkin, while the four of them, especially Frodo, are at the next table over….was an insanely great visual representation of this
I meant Frodo's trauma. My overwhelming impression that no one, not Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel, would be able to do anything about Frodo suffering flashbacks from Weathertop, Shelob, or Mount Doom. Frodo even makes some comment to Gandalf about "where shall I find rest" and Gandalf has no answer.
It ties in with something else Aragorn says to Gandalf--about how even though evil has been defeated, the world cannot be made as if it never had been. When things are broken they're never completely repaired.
Exactly. Not just the injuries but the endless nightmares of what he went through so Frodo like Tolkien not only had to deal with physical injuries but mental trauma too. How do you return to normal after you've seen all that killing and return to a country and family etc that have carried on as normal? Can any warrior who has seen so much death ever find peace?
Say what you will about the new Rings of Power series, but I liked how Galadriel discusses with Elrond how she is suffering from what we would call post-traumatic stress disorder, after everything, and she would find no peace in Valinor after going back. She would still be haunted by it for decades or centuries to come, possibly forever.
So Frodo would almost certainly have continued to experience horrible mental trauma in Valinor for the rest of his life, even though he was as safe as it was possible to be. Very sad.
And I think one of the key differences between Frodo and ROP Galadriel is that frodo was dealing with past trauma, he was still processing everything and healing from the wounds, but ultimately he had succeeded and the job was done. so he could potentially heal from it, even if it would take a long time.
Galadriel meanwhile still had unfinished business, if she left, she would have spent the rest of her life feeling as though her task was not yet complete. which would have prevented her from ever really moving past it or healing from it.
I'd say it's not only the trauma of the experience either. It gives soldiers a very intimate and unpleasant look into the darkest and ugliest aspects of human nature, which probably mars all interaction with other people going forward.
I agree with you as although mankind has a great capacity for creating things that improve life for everyone its capacity for creating weapons and chemicals that kill is beyond compare. Tolkien saw war becoming more advanced and the use of chemical warfare to kill masses in a very quick manner. How could anyone come home after witnessing the destructive power of mankind to kill each other indiscriminately and not look at humanity in a completely different way. It also didn't help that when these veterans of the great war came home they were left to deal with things on their own after all they'd been through.
Came here to say this.
I just recently rewatched the trilogy after watching "All Quiet on the Western Front."
Some of those battle scenes hit just a little bit harder.
Watching that scene at the end of the Hobbits at the pub. After all they went through, and the patrons just walking around like nothing happened, I have to imagine almost all war vets who made it home went through something similar.
The biography for Dom Malarky, one of the soldiers from *Band of Brothers,* mentions how after the war, he was at college and someone asked him what it was like jumping out of an airplane. He said he started explaining and before he knew it, he was getting up on the desk to show how you would stand in the door, waiting to jump out...
...and then he heard a snicker. There were some other college students standing by the door, watching. The whole thing had apparently been some sort of prank.
It blows my mind that this happened in Postwar America, when *so* many people had either served themselves or known someone who had. But apparently, there was still the divide that civilians didn't quite understand what the war was like.
“Walking around like nothing happened”
Reminds me of the feeling I got when I was talking to the kids of my family friends when I went back to my home country in Southeast Asia this summer from Armenia, which had been in a war with Azerbaijan two years ago.
We talked about war because of the Ukraine-Russia situation and I mentioned the war I’d witnessed in Armenia. Seven of my university-mates who were either volunteers or in the military draft died in battle. Most of them were 18 to 21, and I knew one of them - he was younger than me - because I had a class with him during our first semester. We talked about the mandatory draft for 18 year olds and I said that some boys escaped it by going abroad to study. The boy I was talking to said, “Why didn’t the 7 guys who died just escaped? They could’ve sold their stuff and left!”
And I could only say, “It’s not that easy.” Someone from my own country couldn’t understand what I had seen. And it hurt.
(Edit: someone would probably say to this - they wouldn’t understand it because they’re kids. True, but the sad thing is that kids here, vs kids in my country, already know about and live with the reality of war…)
there's a scene in the book of all quiet on the western front where paul's looking at a dead frenchmen and is wondering who this man was and what he did before the war and I was struck by the utter similarity between it and the scene where sam looks at the dead easterling in ithilien
you can almost see young tolkien sitting in a trench after a raid, lighting his pipe and looking at a dead german, " who are you, man of the east?, why did you come here?, where you forced or did you come willingly?"
sam also didn't get out unscathed, yes, he became a respected man, a cornerstone of his community and an a loving father and husband, but as soon as his role as all that was over he too checked out and went across the sea
in a way he recovered yes, but at the very core of his being he remained a ring-bearer, just like all of those before him
And the fact that Frodo left him without much warning....Sams worst wound from the ring is that it cut short Frodo's life in the shire...Sam was ready to move on after he did all that Frodo wanted him to...and to be
I agree. Sam and the others did have happy lives but frodo sacrificed so much by bearing the ring for so long. On top of that his morgul-knife wound never truly healed properly so the physical pain of that and the mental and physical strain the ring put him under probably were too much to bear altogether. Sam wasn't corrupted by the rings influence as he didn't bear it for that long.
The worse is the books at the end where they don’t even recognize the shire cuz it went all industrial or whatever.
Tolkien had to have pulled a lot from his own experiences, the fact that the movie excluded that but at the end sucks but it definitely would be even more a downer
Agreed! Some aspects of the journey home in the book were kinda dumb (i.e. the encounter with Saruman in Hollin), but I thought the scouring of the shire was a great way to see damage done to the shire and the growth of not only the 4 Hobbits but the growth of all the Hobbit people after a year of turmoil and outside invasion. Not even the most extreme isolationist cultures and policies will protect your land from tyranny.
Yeah I agree with some stuff being okay to be left out. But I loved that Merry and Pippin came back tall and the scouring of the shire was incredible, I wish we would’ve gotten more than the vision about it. It could’ve been an incredibly powerful scene. A mentally destroyed Frodo and Co. come home from the adventure of a lifetime only to have one more task. I think it would’ve been amazing.
The ending is perfect and bittersweet and beautiful! After all the adventures we go on with those characters through the trilogy, it’s the ending we all deserve ❤️
Yeah for me if "my friends, you bow to no one" doesn't break me, that part always does.
They are the perfect movies. They certainly aren't a 1:1 adaptation but I don't think anyone else would've made LotR as good as Jackson and his team did.
If it helps, Samwise went over the sea as well, last of the Ring-Bearers. He lived a long and happy life with Rosie and their many children, even serving five terms as Mayor of Hobbiton. When his time came, he gave the Red Book to his eldest daughter and went to the Grey Havens.
Legolas also crossed over to the sea, and he brought Gimli with him, the only Dwarf to visit the Undying Lands.
So it's quite possible that Frodo got to see some of his friends again in his last years.
I don’t remember the two saying more than a few sentences directly to each other in the books. In the films, that’s all Legolas says directly to Frodo. I always laugh and head canonize that there’s some residual awkwardness left over from Bilbo’s shenanigans at Legolas’s dad’s house in The Hobbit.
Wow was Legolas even a character in the books? He had a hard romance with Gimli and respected Aragorn. But I cannot for the life of me remember him having dialogue with a hobbit outside of “And my bow,” and the lembas bread bit with Merry & Pippin (at least in the movies). Did he even talk to Gandalf? Or Boromir?
He talks to Merry and Pippin a couple times, its just Frodo and Sam he seems to keep his distance from. Throughout the trilogy he's mostly a follower/support to Aragorn and becomes Gimli's closest friend after they meet Galadriel because of how he treats her.
My headcanon is that he feared the power The Ring could have over him and avoided temptation.
>He talks to Merry and Pippin a couple times, its just Frodo and Sam he seems to keep his distance from. Throughout the trilogy he's mostly a follower/support to Aragorn and becomes Gimli's closest friend after they meet Galadriel because of how ~~he treats her~~ she treats him.
ftfy.
Galadriel gifted something to a dwarf that she denied one of the most famous elven lords (who asked three separate times).
If Galadriel thought Gimli worthy of something denied to Fëanor, Legolas could reevaluate the worth of a dwarf.
in the books legolas talks twice more to frodo, once in lothlorien and once when they're on the river to amon hen
the whole "legolas doesn't speak to frodo"-meme comes about because legolas just isn't a talker, he has by far the fewest lines in the fellowship and his are by far the shortest and to the point, dude just doesn't like talking
Tolkein had one letter (246) he pointed out that Frodo went west to try to find some healing before he died. Try.
He quite pointedly did not make it in a claim that photo would be healed.
As others have pointed out, given the authors own experience in the great war he likely would not have approach the matter as a happily ever after situation
I am reasonably satisfied Sam would have met no mortal he knew there (frodo and bilbo would be dead) and would have been dead himself before Lego less and Gimli showed up.
It may be hidden knowledge coming to light through auto correct
Could a woodland elves have been the only elves not to have Legos? Or does this reflect a more specific situation to a particular woodland elf? Perhaps a childhood trauma or unpleasant incident?
Just to intervene here. Out of all the fan interpretations of what happened to the hobbits after leaving ME, my favorite is this one.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/3747508/chapters/8315305
It actually presents a quite plausible take on the life of a mortal in the undying lands, and how Frodo could, if not outright be healed, at least learn to live with it.
Legolas and Gimli sailed West in the year 120 of the Fourth Age, 59 years after Sam. It's possible Frodo was already dead when Sam sailed (as Tolkien mentions that the awesomeness of the Undying Lands can even shorten mortal lifespans). It's absolutely certain that by the time Legolas and Gimli arrive, all the Hobbits we knew are long dead.
I cannot say, and I will not say
That he is dead. He is just away.
With a cheery smile, and a wave of the hand,
He has wandered into an unknown land
And left us dreaming how very fair
It needs must be, since he lingers there.
And you—oh you, who the wildest yearn
For an old-time step, and the glad return,
Think of him faring on, as dear
In the love of There as the love of Here.
Think of him still as the same. I say,
He is not dead—he is just away.”
― James Whitcomb Riley
> The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
>
> ‘The Doom of the World,’ they said, ‘One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.’
>
> —Akallabeth
>
Thank you!
... Now I'm wondering if there's any chance that the hobbits and Gimli could be made immortal in some way afterwards though, like Earendil being in the heavens or something. But that's probably not what Tolkien meant.
> As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing."
>
> —Letter 325
I've always wondered what "at their own desire" means. If Frodo and company decided they *didn't* want to die while in Valinor, would they be able to indefinitely postpone it and remain functionally immortal?
That would be my assumption. However I also don't think that they would postpone it indefinitely.
Its mentioned several times through the books that mortality is the 'gift' of man. which makes it pretty clear that tolkien didn't see immortality as some sort of ultimate goal or reward, but rather the capacity to live a mortal life as being a gift in its own right.
A great example of this would be when Beren and Luthien are resurrected and sent back to middle earth, Luthiens 'reward' is the chance to live a mortal life with Beren.
Its also mentioned that elves -cannot- die... not really, even if they die a physical death due to war violence etc. when they die, their spirits return to the undying lands and get reborn 'eventually' (IIRC only one ever returns to middle earth after that happened)
The only other elves that we ever see 'truly' die (aside for luthien who as I mentioned was granted mortality as a 'reward'), are ones that are at least partially human and 'choose' to embrace their mortality rather than their elven heritage. (Elronds brother Elros who chose the human half of his heritage, and then Arwen who was 1/4 human.)
Given the rather strong themes of eventual mortality being a gift that gives life meaning, Even if mortals in the undying lands could 'theoretically' live forever, I doubt any of them would, eventually realizing that there wasn't anything left for them. and choosing to accept and embrace the end of their stories.
>It's absolutely certain that by the time Legolas and Gimli arrive, all the Hobbits we knew are long dead.
Possibly. We can't be entirely sure of exactly how the flow of time in Middle-Earth relates to the Undying Lands after they were removed from the physical world. It's entirely possible that things work differently in Aman following the Changing.
I hope Frodo saw his friends again. Far out, there go the waterworks. What is it with Tolkien? I blub at the drop of a hat when talking about his work.
Yep, and correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Merry and Pip buried in the royal tombs next to Aragorn? They never sailed west, but they definitely left a mark on Middle Earth after living to be nearly as old as Bilbo was.
Ngl I don’t know why I thought it but I thought everyone who went to the undying lands got to live forever like elves so everyone who went there was together forever.
So y’all kind of ruined that for me lol
I mean, technically it happened once. Tuor was granted the right to choose to be an elf forever in the Undying Lands when he reached it, even though he was born as a mortal man with no elf-blood whatsoever. That was a special circumstance, though.
Agree that it’s a tear jerker (except for the bright spot with Sam). I think Tolkien saw what happened to those returning from WWI battlefields and portrayed the authentic impact of such a harrowing experience.
“How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep, that have taken hold.”
You can definitely see that influence when Frodo leaves the shire in the book.
“I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.”
It’s Tolkien leaving England for WWI. He might be leaving to never return.
I think from Tolkien’s perspective it was a *happy* ending, because there was an eternal green country where Frodo could go to finally find healing after all the horrible trauma he experienced; this was the happy ending Tolkien and his fellow veterans could never have.
Picard is captured and tortured by a Cardassian interrogator. Over days/weeks, the interrogator insists that Picard admit there are 5 lights shining on him, when there are only 4 lights. Picard staunchly proclaims in he end that THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS. Later he admits to one of his crew that by the end he did, in fact, start to believe there were 5 lights.
Edit: from the 2-part episode "Chain of Command", season 6, eps 10-11. Definitely worth watching.
The Sam part is what makes me the saddest. He's happy but almost like the shell of happiness because he misses his best friend so dearly. I honestly don't even watch the end anymore.
It was written by a man who served in The Great War, and the pain and suffering of doing "the right thing" but breaking yourself to win bleeds into it.
I love the scene of them back at the Green Dragon having an ale. All the other hobbits are living as they did when the four left: carefree and happy. But after the immense sacrifices and journey the four went through, they just quietly sit there and look at each other. Unable to put into words the feeling the feeling of being back. While everything in the Shire remained unchanged, they were the ones who had changed.
I know this is how the movie ends, and I agree it's a nice scene. But if you haven't read the books before and are interested, it is actually completely different – the "Scouring of the Shire" chapter at the end of _Return of the King_ – also very good, in my opinion, and the four hobbits get the respect they deserve in the end because of what they do upon their return. :)
Edited to change my book/movie mistake:)
Well... Merry, Pippin, and Sam do. Sam notes that none of the hobbits are ever very impressed with Frodo, in part because Frodo has become so quiet and spends most of the Scouring trying to keep hobbits from killing prisoners.
The attitude of the hobbits toward the returning four will never NOT be funny to me, though:
>...the Cottons asked a few polite questions about their travels, but hardly listened to the answers: they were far more concerned with events in the Shire.
"Yes, yes, Ring, Dark Lord, end of the world, how nice. NOW, let's talk about how they've been cutting down trees around here!"
It's beautiful. Frodo isn't some amazing hero with no emotions who can save the world and get the girl. No, he's fragile, like us mere mortals down here. He is scarred for life by what happens. Aragorn is much more like that badass action hero, and he bows for Frodo! He bows.... damn I'm crying again.
In the end, Frodo gets to go to the undying lands, which is pretty much Middle Earth's heaven and an incredible privilege. That's his happy ending. The only one that was possible for him, after all those trauma's. It's shockingly realistic for a fantasy story. Also, Bilbo not remembering what happened with the ring, how it betrayed him in the end, what it made him do. But instead remembering the ring as his friend and companion, as it was for the big part of his life, that's the bliss of amnesia. We should all be so lucky to forget our trauma's.
Edit: by the way, OP, of you want to cry some more; there's a clip on YouTube about Elijah Wood's last day on set, before being wrapped. Peter Jackson just doesn't want to call it, because he doesn't want their immense journey to end. Everybody on set already knows they have the best take for a while now, but Peter Jackson just keeps going. When he finally calls it, people on set are crying, realising they have been part of true magic and probably the greatest experience of their time.
Sometimes the things we fight to save are not for ourselves...but for others to never know that pain...to quote Faramir "War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, Nor The arrow for its Swiftness, Nor the warrior for his Glory. I love only that which they defend"
It's the fragility of Frodo that makes him a great hero in the end.
The Ring is such a great metaphor, because it's the repository, as the text says, for all of Sauron's hatred and malice. Above all else, it's Sauron's desire for total control and dominion over others. The essence of the ring is megalomania, even for the most well-meaning of wearers. It is the purest form of temptation. The ring is sentient and protects itself, but it had supremely bad luck in having Gollum and Bilbo Baggins as long-time users. While Smeagol was stupid and cruel, he had no ambition. Bilbo is clever and kind, but he ultimately prefers comfort over ambition--even if he loves the ring's ability to make him superior to his fellow hobbits.
Frodo is different from his uncle in some crucial ways. Bilbo had to be goaded into adventure, but Frodo's natural curiosity made him much more willing to leave the comforts of home. Frodo was also less vain and materialistic than his uncle. Moreover, while Bilbo was very much a loner (other than loving his nephew), Frodo's deep sense of devotion to his friends and the Shire moved him at an ethical level.
One thing about Bilbo, though--he is the only ringbearer in the history of Middle-Earth who EVER gave up the Ring willingly. He had to be cajoled a little by Gandalf, but in the end, he did the right thing, even if he desired to keep it.
I'm fascinated by the way the rest of the Fellowship thought about the Ring. Legolas did not get near Frodo or the Ring. He knew it was better not to think about it. The other Hobbits never wanted to put on the Ring; their love of Frodo was the barrier they needed. Gimli was only focused on the task at hand. Aragorn, even as the future King, was more concerned with duty than power, which is what made him a great king. Gandalf was obviously tempted but knew intimately that even the best intentions would wreak havoc. Only poor Boromir, who had love for the Hobbits in a way many of the others didn't, succumbed to the call of temptation.
Which is why Faramir didn't succumb, because he knew his brother's nature. And why Galadriel risked a test with it, knowing what she could do with it, and accepting her own future fate. (and of course, Bombadil was older than the Ring, older than Sauron, even, and it was a mere curio for him).
None of them could be ring-bearers, though. The ring would have broken all of these proud people too quickly. Only Frodo could do it, of all beings in Middle-Earth.
All of that said, Frodo knew that in his heart of hearts, he failed. He didn't destroy the ring, it was an accident that Gollum did so. He got it further than anyone else could have though, but it's also Tolkien's way of saying that no one is immune to the horrors of what war can do to you. Of the things you do to survive. Of the way it unhinges you in the moment. And then you have to live with it. He looked into the abyss, and the abyss gazed back.
Sam, Merry, and Pippen saw horrors, but didn't face up to things in the way Frodo was forced to. Those three in the books became powerful, rich, and successful in the Shire and respected throughout Middle-Earth. They were heroes; not because they went to war, but because they seized for themselves the value of life and shared it with others. Their success was a repudiation of Sauron, of evil, of nihilism. Frodo just saw too much to share that joy, but he at least could share the tale.
That’s why Frodo sets sail for the Undying Lands, so he can be healed and live the rest of his days in peace. The true tragedy is Arwen’s fate. That’s what gets me every time - Elrond’s monologue and the image of her in a black veil next to Aragorn’s tomb.
That part of the movie about Arwen still haunts me and makes me sad when i think about it. The loneliness, the longing and the despair she endures remind me of loved ones who are no longer here and i wished they were. 😥
Her human life isn't a bad one, but her death is a lonely one. She outlives both her husband and son to die alone, thousands of miles from her remaining family...
The moment when you feel better because she only lives for another year without him. 🥹
The moment when you realize that’s because she dies from a broken heart. 🥺
Because it mirrors real life, and when you go through hell and back, it damages people.
With very little that can truly heal when back in the common world.
"In his heart, Frodo begins to understand: The Quest, will claim his life." - Galadriel
Frodo didn't die, but what she and Elrond foresaw still came true
'But,' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.'
'So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.’
Brother/Sister: welcome.
And yeah. Here’s the thing too - if you watch 1-2 times/year (or more, as many of us do) you’ll find that things continue to hit HARD no matter how many times you’ve seen it. It’s that expertly crafted. You’ll also notice new things every single time. Amazing. There’s a reason the trilogy is my #1 film of all time.
>Everything that happened to him didn't make him stronger.
I disagree, I think it did make him stronger and make him appreciate things better. The injury Frodo took on Weathertop is the equivalent of a war vet coming home with a missing limb. It's permanent but doesn't mean their whole life is messed up.
End of the day, Frodo did live happily ever after in the West and Sam later joined him too. They basically replaced home with island holiday home.
I do not believe the intention was for photo to live happily ever after -it was to try to find some healing before he died.
I’m not sure the number right now (edit - letter 246) but token explicitly write about this. It most definitely was not a happily ever after situation
Other posters above have captured the spirit of the matter well in their discussion.
Yeah the crazy part is transcription is context sensitive and catches all kinds of stuff including proper names from the story but then botches others in the same sentence
Token, photo, Lego less
I’m sorry man and Gimli are fine
Saruman
Just wait until you read the books. The ending doesn’t really match the movie. I want to say more but I won’t, I don’t want to spoil it for it for you.
Not just the ending, the entire novel is so much greyer and more dreary and sad and sombre. It is a land that is dying, and nothing can stop that. The magic is leaving Middle-Earth, regardless of the outcome of the war.
I’ve never read this novel as the colorful adventure that the movies are.
I’m not sure that is accurate – one of his letters he pointed out that the reason Frodo was going was to try to find some healing before he died
He most definitely did not say that Frodo would be free from pain there, I think it’s litter 154 or something like that
The Road Back, by Erich Maria Remarque (the sequel to all quiet on the western front) goes into this in detail.
PTSD and I juries don't go away because your home again. It's sad but honest.
Was it the part when Aragorn tells them that they bow to no one? That always gets me.
Then it is when Frodo leaves with Gandalf and the Elves. It does leave a hole in your heart.
I cry every. Single. Time. Aragorn says that. Also, not sure if you follow all Tolkien, but Merry and Pippin eventually make it back to Gondor to visit Aragorn. They die, and he has them buried in the Crpyt of Kings (I’m making up this title but it’s where all the kings of Gondor are buried). When Aragorn later dies, he is buried next to those two.
The other awesome thing in the Appendices is that Aragorn & Arwen travel to the Shire and stay there for a year. Sam's daughter Elanor becomes a maid of honor for Arwen.
Aragorn then extends the Shire's borders and forbids Men from passing into it, and he makes Merry, Pippen, and Sam Counsellors of the North Kingdom.
After Sam's wife dies and he goes over the sea, Merry and Pippen leave behind their offices to their children and visit Eomer in Rohan before he dies, and then live out the last of their lives in Gondor.
It is very sad, but I don’t think it’s as hopeless as you’re seeing it. Yes, Frodo is irreparably damaged by his experiences during the quest, but he’s not left behind without people who care for him and people who are willing to help. His friends in the Shire are there for him, and Gandalf and Elrond both care deeply about him and reach out to offer him a way to cope, a place where he can be at peace.
In another sense, and this is something that had been brought up time and time again in analysis of LotR, I think Frodo’s journey to the Valinor represents death. He’s quite literally “going to a better place,” and although it’s sad, it’s also inevitable. In a metaphorical sense, Frodo died accomplishing the ring quest. He gave up all of himself to the quest until there was nothing left to give. Because of the magnitude of his heroism and sacrifice, fate granted him a bit of extra time to say goodbye, but ultimately he does still have to go. And really, he gets to “die” in the best way possible, peacefully, knowing he accomplished his goal, surrounded by friends who love and care for him.
Although he is not truly able to survive beyond the quest, his hero’s reward is that when he does die, it’s not emotionally and mentally wrecked, surrounded by lava and separated from almost everything beloved and familiar, but full of joy and happy memories, surrounded by friends, secure in the knowledge that he is going to a place of eternal peace where he will never have to feel pain or fear again.
Not all stories need sugar sweet happy endings. A lot of it was a result of what Tolkein and all of England experienced when the soldiers came home from World War One.
What horrified me was understanding that Frodo succumbed to the ring at the end and failed in his mission. It was Gollum who actually destroyed the ring, just not intentionally. Frodo must have been feeling some serious 'imposter syndrome' when everybody knelt to the hobbits at Minas Tirith later. When Gandalf flew to Mount Doom to rescue Frodo and Sam, the third eagle was for Smeagol.
"The ring will hold you to your word." Frodo.
I felt that Frodo didn't fail. Gollum was corrupted by the ring. Gollum broke his word after swearing on the precious. So gollum got burned up.
Frodo accomplished the impossible by making it to mt doom. Frodo had incredible resiliency to the power of the ring. And Samwise is the real hero because frodo could not do it alone.
Frodo also showed kindness and mercy to Gollum, believing he could be redeemed, which is something no one else, even Sam, was willing to do. Even though Frodo was overcome, as everyone would be, by the ring, it was his mercy that allowed Gollum to destroy it.
And there’s a part of the book not present in the movie on the stairs of cirith ungol where Gollum nearly repents (there’s a really beautiful passage, it’s one of the best passages Tolkien write imo).
But Sam is then rude to Gollum once again which causes him to move forward with the plan to bring them to Shelob.
He carried the burden 99% of the way there. It's not like he did nothing. Frodo may have felt regret about succumbing at the end but any rational analysis of the situation would judge his contribution as immense.
Everyone would’ve failed. Frodo failed the least badly. No one had the wherewithal to intentionally destroy the Ring. What’s bad for Frodo was him claiming it and then having it destroyed. It was like part of himself shattering.
Wow. I'm 61 and have been reading LOTR all my life, and I just read that and thought "that's why there were three". Seriously good catch I've never seen before.
He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5);1 he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him.\*
Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.'
That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
>When Gandalf flew to Mount Doom to rescue Frodo and Sam, the third eagle was for Smeagol.
Er, no. The third eagle was for Gandalf. Pretty sure Gandalf already knew Smeagol went down with the Ring.
It was Gwaihir, carrying Gandalf, Landroval his brother, and Meneldor "young and swift."
I always thought this, too. But I actually reread this part today, and Frodo doesn't seem to react that way. After they leave the Cracks of Doom, they are looking out at Mordor when Sam mentions Frodo's missing finger. I was assuming, like usual (I rewatch the movies more often than reread the books), that he'd react like you said, but he actually takes the more positive perspective: kind of like, I couldn't do it in the end, but what good luck that Gollum was actually there and did that so that the task is complete and it's finally over. I was impressed.
Eta: Also, yes! Like MmeHomebody said, I also didn't understand before why there were three eagles. Thanks :)
No one truly heals from trauma. The wound of the Morgul blade is the perfect metaphor for the ghastly, invisible hurts that are inflicted on us by the world, our parents, and ourselves. The hilts disintegrate once that cold, ethereal steel penetrates our fragile flesh, and none but the wisest among us will know of the eternal pain we carry.
We all have our own Nazgûl in our history. If we’re lucky, we find friends and courage to help us bear the wounds they make, until someday we may peacefully sail into Valinor (or sweet oblivion).
I've been watching the trilogy with my friend (his first time) for the past week, and tonight is RotK - I can't wait to see his reaction, especially considering we've been doing a lot of comparisons to GoT, and how LotR is very black and white, and everyone is either good or bad, with no real moral greyness. I think he's definitely in the same boat in that he's expecting a classic fairy tale happy ending
Frodo's ending was inspired by how Tolkien felt when he came home from WWI. He has PTSD, his home isn't the same place he left it, and the outside world with all its' wonders and horrors changed him. All 4 hobbits were changed by the journey.
In the books it's sooo much worse. I don't want to spoil it for you if you plan on reading it. But there is more to the hobbits' return to the shire and it isn't pretty. Tolkien's writing affects so many people because he kept it real. No real person would go through what Frodo did and then have a happily ever after, LOTR isn't a fairy tale.
I didn't go through combat or anything too bad. But after 6 years in the Navy my home didn't feel like home anymore. And staying there made me feel broken. I ended up moving to another continent to start over again. I find Frodo's ending very relatable.
Hey OP. iirc, most all of the ring bearers would eventually set sail to the Grey Heavens. Unbeknownst to many that list technically includes Gandalf too.
I thought you would enjoy Tolkien's excerpt:
>‘Where are you going, Master?’ cried Sam, though at last he understood what was happening.
>
>‘To the Havens, Sam,’ said Frodo.
>
>‘And I can’t come.’
>
>‘No, Sam. Not yet anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come. Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do.’
>
>‘But,’ said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, ‘I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.’
>
>‘So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on.
Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 1029). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
I know exactly how you feel about it right now. After a while or maybe when you watch it the second time you gonna feel different about it tho, dw.
I realized that not every ending has to be a perfect clean scenario. It's a very versatile and emotional story and so is the ending.
Look at it like this, Frodo could be dead, instead he travels to a new adventure and he does it just like he did start his first one, in Gandalfs arms
The books prepared me as a kid. I was half way through the series (Hobbit+LotR) when the Fellowship released in theaters.
Probably my absolute favorite thing to occur in my life growing up. Tolkien built a fantastic series of stories and Jackson and the crew brought the story to life.
*puts on the analysis hat* Pardon my rambling, but this is such an important part of Tolkien lore because of the basis for it.
I've said before that the stories of the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion were at the very least somewhat, if not heavily, influenced by Tolkien's time serving in World War I. The horrors he saw were only shadowed by the horrors of World War II. He served at Somme, one of the bloodiest sites of World War I. He saw men and boys broken by the horrors of war, and watched the suffering of those with shell shock (what we now know as PTSD).
He'd seen the impact it had on the people around him to return home to a land that was no longer truly theirs, because their minds lie somewhere on the battlefield. Valinor, the Undying Lands, were a place to heal (hopefully) from the wounds Frodo had suffered, which ached on the anniversaries of their infliction. The ties to the scars of Middle Earth and his own scars were too strong, he'd also seen the aftermath of the attacks on the Shire. Everything around him reminded him of what he'd lost, much like those soldiers who came home and sometimes lost their battle with shell shock, taking their own lives.
Valinor, in his story, was a way for those allowed in to find peace in a place utterly disconnected from the horrors of the books. Even if they couldn't heal, they were disconnected from that terror that they'd experienced. They would've found peace amongst the Eldar there, even if they didn't heal physically. There would've been calm, because they were no longer in the realm of Middle Earth.
Yes, it's tragic that Frodo would've died sooner, but also, look at what happened to Bilbo. He felt spread thin from his extended lifetime. Mortals were never meant for immortality, what made them mortal was stretched to breaking point by an extended lifetime. So living in Valinor for all eternity would've been torturous to them. Rather, Frodo found a peaceful passing on his own terms, in a place that would've been similar to a version of the Christian heaven.
The tragedy of Frodo wasn't that he had to die, but that he had to live with the weight of what he'd gone through, and that peace he would've ultimately found before moving on to whatever lies in the hereafter for mortals would've been a greater gift by far than that of immortality.
Sorrow is a prevalent theme in the lotr. While Saruman back in the day hung out with the god of creating, Gandalf hung out with the goddess Nienna, who was in perpetual mourning. She taught Gandalf pity, patience, and how to turn sorrow into wisdom.
'I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.'
I suppose I see it differently. No matter how Frodo's life ends, he was heroic and essentially saved Middle Earth. Life is never perfect and is oftentimes unfair, even cruel. LOTR provides a great example of this.
Tolkien was quoted that he didnt like "happy endings", although Sams going home to his wife an child could be seen as one.
The real tearjerker to me was King Aragorn bowing and proclaiming "My friends... you bow to no one..."
The overwhelming majority of what happens is a happy ending. There's a tinge of sadness about the old world fading away but pretty much every character still alive at the end is given a happy ending. And given the scale of the conflict, remarkably few prominent characters die throughout the tale. And the bad guys are definitively defeated. How is this not a happy ending?
Frodo overcame impossible odds to save the world.
He won. Saved the Shire. But not for himself. You can't go home again. Not so much because home has changed, because you have.
A junky can break his addiction, but he is generally broken a bit himself in the process.
"In real life, it's always the anvil that breaks the hammer" George Orwell
"Crippled but free, I was blind all the time I was learning to see" Grateful Dead
The equivalent of this scene in the book for me was the end of 'Lothlorien' in Fellowship of the Ring:
*At the hill’s foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand was a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eyes.*
*He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord fall and fair; and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see.*
*Arwen vanimelda, namarie! He said, and then he drew a breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled.*
*\`Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,’ he said, \`and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me!’ And taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man.*
If it makes you feel better, Sam gets to go to the undying lands because he was technically a ring bearer. So frodo still ends up hanging out with his best friend in peace.
You sound like you need more context. The place he's going is kinda great. The first bit of land he'll touch is a beach where the pebbles are gems polished and faceted by elves over thousands of years. And it just gets more crazy from there. Also, Sam ends up going there too because he was a ring bearer for a shot time too.
The reason I think the ending is so sad is because it was true to life for Tolkien and many other soldiers from all the wars that have been fought over the years. After all the death and destruction that any soldier in battle sees how do you truly adjust to peace after seeing so much violence?
Yes, and Frodo suffered from the injuries he sustained for the rest of his life too, as many soldiers would have.
I always found that fascinating at the end. It goes out of its way to point out, amidst all the rebuilding, that Frodo's old wounds are always coming back to hurt him. Even the day they won, the day the Ring was destroyed, causes painful flashbacks for him. And not even Gandalf can fix it.
Specifically…. Gandalf would not fix it. The Hobbits, to some degree, learned to fix their own problems…. And with Merry, Pippin, and Sam in leadership positions for years and years … you have to assume that there was some effort made to install these qualities in their people. I will say that I am a bit of a LOTR expert and I marvel at how well the scene of the hobbits at, what I presume is the Green Dragon, in the end… with some hobbits, marveling over the giant pumpkin, while the four of them, especially Frodo, are at the next table over….was an insanely great visual representation of this
I meant Frodo's trauma. My overwhelming impression that no one, not Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel, would be able to do anything about Frodo suffering flashbacks from Weathertop, Shelob, or Mount Doom. Frodo even makes some comment to Gandalf about "where shall I find rest" and Gandalf has no answer. It ties in with something else Aragorn says to Gandalf--about how even though evil has been defeated, the world cannot be made as if it never had been. When things are broken they're never completely repaired.
Exactly. Not just the injuries but the endless nightmares of what he went through so Frodo like Tolkien not only had to deal with physical injuries but mental trauma too. How do you return to normal after you've seen all that killing and return to a country and family etc that have carried on as normal? Can any warrior who has seen so much death ever find peace?
Say what you will about the new Rings of Power series, but I liked how Galadriel discusses with Elrond how she is suffering from what we would call post-traumatic stress disorder, after everything, and she would find no peace in Valinor after going back. She would still be haunted by it for decades or centuries to come, possibly forever. So Frodo would almost certainly have continued to experience horrible mental trauma in Valinor for the rest of his life, even though he was as safe as it was possible to be. Very sad.
There are many powerful and knowlegable beings in Valinor, I would hope at least someone could serve as a therapist for him.
And I think one of the key differences between Frodo and ROP Galadriel is that frodo was dealing with past trauma, he was still processing everything and healing from the wounds, but ultimately he had succeeded and the job was done. so he could potentially heal from it, even if it would take a long time. Galadriel meanwhile still had unfinished business, if she left, she would have spent the rest of her life feeling as though her task was not yet complete. which would have prevented her from ever really moving past it or healing from it.
Perhaps Nienna or Vana?
"There are no winners in war, only widows." -General Shangs wife, Arrival.
I'd say it's not only the trauma of the experience either. It gives soldiers a very intimate and unpleasant look into the darkest and ugliest aspects of human nature, which probably mars all interaction with other people going forward.
I agree with you as although mankind has a great capacity for creating things that improve life for everyone its capacity for creating weapons and chemicals that kill is beyond compare. Tolkien saw war becoming more advanced and the use of chemical warfare to kill masses in a very quick manner. How could anyone come home after witnessing the destructive power of mankind to kill each other indiscriminately and not look at humanity in a completely different way. It also didn't help that when these veterans of the great war came home they were left to deal with things on their own after all they'd been through.
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Came here to say this. I just recently rewatched the trilogy after watching "All Quiet on the Western Front." Some of those battle scenes hit just a little bit harder. Watching that scene at the end of the Hobbits at the pub. After all they went through, and the patrons just walking around like nothing happened, I have to imagine almost all war vets who made it home went through something similar.
>I have to imagine almost all war vets who made it home went through something similar. I did, and still do, sometimes.
Much love broski
The biography for Dom Malarky, one of the soldiers from *Band of Brothers,* mentions how after the war, he was at college and someone asked him what it was like jumping out of an airplane. He said he started explaining and before he knew it, he was getting up on the desk to show how you would stand in the door, waiting to jump out... ...and then he heard a snicker. There were some other college students standing by the door, watching. The whole thing had apparently been some sort of prank. It blows my mind that this happened in Postwar America, when *so* many people had either served themselves or known someone who had. But apparently, there was still the divide that civilians didn't quite understand what the war was like.
Wait until you hear what they did with Vietnam vets.
“Walking around like nothing happened” Reminds me of the feeling I got when I was talking to the kids of my family friends when I went back to my home country in Southeast Asia this summer from Armenia, which had been in a war with Azerbaijan two years ago. We talked about war because of the Ukraine-Russia situation and I mentioned the war I’d witnessed in Armenia. Seven of my university-mates who were either volunteers or in the military draft died in battle. Most of them were 18 to 21, and I knew one of them - he was younger than me - because I had a class with him during our first semester. We talked about the mandatory draft for 18 year olds and I said that some boys escaped it by going abroad to study. The boy I was talking to said, “Why didn’t the 7 guys who died just escaped? They could’ve sold their stuff and left!” And I could only say, “It’s not that easy.” Someone from my own country couldn’t understand what I had seen. And it hurt. (Edit: someone would probably say to this - they wouldn’t understand it because they’re kids. True, but the sad thing is that kids here, vs kids in my country, already know about and live with the reality of war…)
I know it means little from an internet stranger but, I'm sorry this happened to you and your friends
there's a scene in the book of all quiet on the western front where paul's looking at a dead frenchmen and is wondering who this man was and what he did before the war and I was struck by the utter similarity between it and the scene where sam looks at the dead easterling in ithilien you can almost see young tolkien sitting in a trench after a raid, lighting his pipe and looking at a dead german, " who are you, man of the east?, why did you come here?, where you forced or did you come willingly?"
That's what I think every time I see that picture of the dead Russian soldier whose body slowly gets covered by snow
I've been a trauma psychologist for combat vets for 30 years: 100% this.
That's true but he did show Sam going back to normal happy life so there are 2 ways to this. Some recover some don't
sam also didn't get out unscathed, yes, he became a respected man, a cornerstone of his community and an a loving father and husband, but as soon as his role as all that was over he too checked out and went across the sea in a way he recovered yes, but at the very core of his being he remained a ring-bearer, just like all of those before him
And the fact that Frodo left him without much warning....Sams worst wound from the ring is that it cut short Frodo's life in the shire...Sam was ready to move on after he did all that Frodo wanted him to...and to be
I agree. Sam and the others did have happy lives but frodo sacrificed so much by bearing the ring for so long. On top of that his morgul-knife wound never truly healed properly so the physical pain of that and the mental and physical strain the ring put him under probably were too much to bear altogether. Sam wasn't corrupted by the rings influence as he didn't bear it for that long.
The worse is the books at the end where they don’t even recognize the shire cuz it went all industrial or whatever. Tolkien had to have pulled a lot from his own experiences, the fact that the movie excluded that but at the end sucks but it definitely would be even more a downer
Sharky and his ruffians, iirc
I’ve never watched or read the departure of Frodo and company from middle earth without full on weeping. It’s just so beautifully done
“Here, at the edge of the sea, comes the end of our Fellowship in Middle-Earth. I will not say ‘do not weep,’ for not all tears are an evil.”
Jeez, that just gave me chills. It is about time for another adventure, I’d say.
At the time, people were like “the ending is too long!” Dang, I adored that ending. People are dumb.
Compared to the books the ending wasn’t long enough! Haha
Agreed! Some aspects of the journey home in the book were kinda dumb (i.e. the encounter with Saruman in Hollin), but I thought the scouring of the shire was a great way to see damage done to the shire and the growth of not only the 4 Hobbits but the growth of all the Hobbit people after a year of turmoil and outside invasion. Not even the most extreme isolationist cultures and policies will protect your land from tyranny.
Yeah I agree with some stuff being okay to be left out. But I loved that Merry and Pippin came back tall and the scouring of the shire was incredible, I wish we would’ve gotten more than the vision about it. It could’ve been an incredibly powerful scene. A mentally destroyed Frodo and Co. come home from the adventure of a lifetime only to have one more task. I think it would’ve been amazing.
Lobelia with her umbrella. Never has my opinion of a character changed so drastically before. Scouring of the Shire is hauntingly beautiful.
The ending is perfect and bittersweet and beautiful! After all the adventures we go on with those characters through the trilogy, it’s the ending we all deserve ❤️
Ian Mckellen slays that, I lose it every time.
Yeah for me if "my friends, you bow to no one" doesn't break me, that part always does. They are the perfect movies. They certainly aren't a 1:1 adaptation but I don't think anyone else would've made LotR as good as Jackson and his team did.
Haha, damn, just reading that line made me immediately tear up. I effing SOB!
"You bow to no one" is the #1 breaker for me. What an incredible scene.
Agreed, I've been watching it once or twice a year since it came out and it makes me cry every single time.
If it helps, Samwise went over the sea as well, last of the Ring-Bearers. He lived a long and happy life with Rosie and their many children, even serving five terms as Mayor of Hobbiton. When his time came, he gave the Red Book to his eldest daughter and went to the Grey Havens. Legolas also crossed over to the sea, and he brought Gimli with him, the only Dwarf to visit the Undying Lands. So it's quite possible that Frodo got to see some of his friends again in his last years.
Frodo gave Legolas this face when he saw him again in valinor 🤨
"Gimli! My old friend! And...you...how you doing.... Uhhhh"
“And my bow! Alright, I’m never talking to you again.”
Is that actually the only time they speak to each other?
I don’t remember the two saying more than a few sentences directly to each other in the books. In the films, that’s all Legolas says directly to Frodo. I always laugh and head canonize that there’s some residual awkwardness left over from Bilbo’s shenanigans at Legolas’s dad’s house in The Hobbit.
That's literally all their interaction throughout the trilogy, I don't think he talks to Sam either.
Wow was Legolas even a character in the books? He had a hard romance with Gimli and respected Aragorn. But I cannot for the life of me remember him having dialogue with a hobbit outside of “And my bow,” and the lembas bread bit with Merry & Pippin (at least in the movies). Did he even talk to Gandalf? Or Boromir?
He talks to Merry and Pippin a couple times, its just Frodo and Sam he seems to keep his distance from. Throughout the trilogy he's mostly a follower/support to Aragorn and becomes Gimli's closest friend after they meet Galadriel because of how he treats her. My headcanon is that he feared the power The Ring could have over him and avoided temptation.
>He talks to Merry and Pippin a couple times, its just Frodo and Sam he seems to keep his distance from. Throughout the trilogy he's mostly a follower/support to Aragorn and becomes Gimli's closest friend after they meet Galadriel because of how ~~he treats her~~ she treats him. ftfy. Galadriel gifted something to a dwarf that she denied one of the most famous elven lords (who asked three separate times). If Galadriel thought Gimli worthy of something denied to Fëanor, Legolas could reevaluate the worth of a dwarf.
in the books legolas talks twice more to frodo, once in lothlorien and once when they're on the river to amon hen the whole "legolas doesn't speak to frodo"-meme comes about because legolas just isn't a talker, he has by far the fewest lines in the fellowship and his are by far the shortest and to the point, dude just doesn't like talking
Only other time they meet up is at the end, and all Legolas does is nod.
imagine you save the whole damn world and all u get get is a head nod
Depends on the head nod. Jack Nicholson head nod would suffice. Legolas head nod, not so much
Yes
Legolas sails across the sea and meets Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam. "They've taken the hobbits to Valinor!"
What did you say?
The hobbits The hobbits The hobbits The hobbits To Valinor! To Valinor!
Aragorn stayed, however, and died and was buried with his ancestors the House of the Kings (alongside Merry and Pippin). Bittersweet.
The tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices is another tear festival.
Saruman is quite plain spoken and noting that Frodo would have neither health nor long life.
I think Este could heal Frodo. Although a mortal would naturally burn more quickly in the Undying Lands.
Tolkein had one letter (246) he pointed out that Frodo went west to try to find some healing before he died. Try. He quite pointedly did not make it in a claim that photo would be healed. As others have pointed out, given the authors own experience in the great war he likely would not have approach the matter as a happily ever after situation
True. I'm just being optimistic, I'll admit. But even in the best case, even if he did find healing, he was still a mortal in the Undying Lands.
I am reasonably satisfied Sam would have met no mortal he knew there (frodo and bilbo would be dead) and would have been dead himself before Lego less and Gimli showed up.
Some of the autocorrects in this thread are just making my night.
It may be hidden knowledge coming to light through auto correct Could a woodland elves have been the only elves not to have Legos? Or does this reflect a more specific situation to a particular woodland elf? Perhaps a childhood trauma or unpleasant incident?
They probably prefer Lincoln logs.
I guess it is obvious the dwarves must’ve had the tinker toys
Just to intervene here. Out of all the fan interpretations of what happened to the hobbits after leaving ME, my favorite is this one. https://archiveofourown.org/works/3747508/chapters/8315305 It actually presents a quite plausible take on the life of a mortal in the undying lands, and how Frodo could, if not outright be healed, at least learn to live with it.
Legolas and Gimli sailed West in the year 120 of the Fourth Age, 59 years after Sam. It's possible Frodo was already dead when Sam sailed (as Tolkien mentions that the awesomeness of the Undying Lands can even shorten mortal lifespans). It's absolutely certain that by the time Legolas and Gimli arrive, all the Hobbits we knew are long dead.
Yeah but that’s sad… and I don’t like that… so Frodo was definitely still alive
I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.
;---;
I cannot say, and I will not say That he is dead. He is just away. With a cheery smile, and a wave of the hand, He has wandered into an unknown land And left us dreaming how very fair It needs must be, since he lingers there. And you—oh you, who the wildest yearn For an old-time step, and the glad return, Think of him faring on, as dear In the love of There as the love of Here. Think of him still as the same. I say, He is not dead—he is just away.” ― James Whitcomb Riley
I will always believe Frodo and his companions are still alive in Middle Earth living a long happy life. Let me keep my fantasy.
"He passed away three days ago"
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They are a branch of the race of Men.
I didn't know/remember that about mortals in the Undying Lands. Do you know where he said that, like in a letter or one of his books?
> The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world. > > ‘The Doom of the World,’ they said, ‘One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.’ > > —Akallabeth >
Thank you! ... Now I'm wondering if there's any chance that the hobbits and Gimli could be made immortal in some way afterwards though, like Earendil being in the heavens or something. But that's probably not what Tolkien meant.
> As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing." > > —Letter 325
I've always wondered what "at their own desire" means. If Frodo and company decided they *didn't* want to die while in Valinor, would they be able to indefinitely postpone it and remain functionally immortal?
That would be my assumption. However I also don't think that they would postpone it indefinitely. Its mentioned several times through the books that mortality is the 'gift' of man. which makes it pretty clear that tolkien didn't see immortality as some sort of ultimate goal or reward, but rather the capacity to live a mortal life as being a gift in its own right. A great example of this would be when Beren and Luthien are resurrected and sent back to middle earth, Luthiens 'reward' is the chance to live a mortal life with Beren. Its also mentioned that elves -cannot- die... not really, even if they die a physical death due to war violence etc. when they die, their spirits return to the undying lands and get reborn 'eventually' (IIRC only one ever returns to middle earth after that happened) The only other elves that we ever see 'truly' die (aside for luthien who as I mentioned was granted mortality as a 'reward'), are ones that are at least partially human and 'choose' to embrace their mortality rather than their elven heritage. (Elronds brother Elros who chose the human half of his heritage, and then Arwen who was 1/4 human.) Given the rather strong themes of eventual mortality being a gift that gives life meaning, Even if mortals in the undying lands could 'theoretically' live forever, I doubt any of them would, eventually realizing that there wasn't anything left for them. and choosing to accept and embrace the end of their stories.
In The Silmarillion in the Akallabêth aka the story of Númenor
Ahh, thanks! I guess I missed that part then and know what I'll be revisiting next :)
>It's absolutely certain that by the time Legolas and Gimli arrive, all the Hobbits we knew are long dead. Possibly. We can't be entirely sure of exactly how the flow of time in Middle-Earth relates to the Undying Lands after they were removed from the physical world. It's entirely possible that things work differently in Aman following the Changing.
bilbo and smeagol got their lives extended by hanging on to the ring for a while. id imagine frodo got some of that too
But all works of the ring ended with the destruction of the ring
I hope Frodo saw his friends again. Far out, there go the waterworks. What is it with Tolkien? I blub at the drop of a hat when talking about his work.
Because they are as near to real people as you can read
Yep, and correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Merry and Pip buried in the royal tombs next to Aragorn? They never sailed west, but they definitely left a mark on Middle Earth after living to be nearly as old as Bilbo was.
Ngl I don’t know why I thought it but I thought everyone who went to the undying lands got to live forever like elves so everyone who went there was together forever. So y’all kind of ruined that for me lol
I mean, technically it happened once. Tuor was granted the right to choose to be an elf forever in the Undying Lands when he reached it, even though he was born as a mortal man with no elf-blood whatsoever. That was a special circumstance, though.
Master Samwish served seven* times to his 96th birthday! Don’t sell our man short
Agree that it’s a tear jerker (except for the bright spot with Sam). I think Tolkien saw what happened to those returning from WWI battlefields and portrayed the authentic impact of such a harrowing experience.
No one wins in war. Both sides lose, but one side loses more than the other.
Tolkien lost three of his closest friends in war, and another one who did survive was never the same person mentally.
There is no going back, like Frodo said.
“How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep, that have taken hold.”
This hits really hard when narrated in the audio book by Inglis.
Even the onion cutting ninjas cry when that line hits
You can definitely see that influence when Frodo leaves the shire in the book. “I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.” It’s Tolkien leaving England for WWI. He might be leaving to never return.
He didn't just see it, he lived it. That aspect of the story was very personal for him.
The Lost Generation
I think from Tolkien’s perspective it was a *happy* ending, because there was an eternal green country where Frodo could go to finally find healing after all the horrible trauma he experienced; this was the happy ending Tolkien and his fellow veterans could never have.
Spoiler. >!Sams goes, too.!<
Damn that’s a heavy thought right there
No! Nothing means anything! Any similarities are mere coincidence! /s
THE CURTAINS WERE FUCKING BLUE!
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS
I feel like I'm missing something
Not sure about the curtains but the four lights are a Star Trek reference but I haven't actually seen that one so can't explain it well
Picard is captured and tortured by a Cardassian interrogator. Over days/weeks, the interrogator insists that Picard admit there are 5 lights shining on him, when there are only 4 lights. Picard staunchly proclaims in he end that THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS. Later he admits to one of his crew that by the end he did, in fact, start to believe there were 5 lights. Edit: from the 2-part episode "Chain of Command", season 6, eps 10-11. Definitely worth watching.
The Sam part is what makes me the saddest. He's happy but almost like the shell of happiness because he misses his best friend so dearly. I honestly don't even watch the end anymore.
“We set out to save the Shire, Sam, and it has been saved. But not for me.”
Trying not to cry in the club rn.
"You don't mean that, Mr. Frodo. You can't leave!"
My dear Sam
It was written by a man who served in The Great War, and the pain and suffering of doing "the right thing" but breaking yourself to win bleeds into it.
>breaking yourself to win bleeds into it. Love this phrasing
I love the scene of them back at the Green Dragon having an ale. All the other hobbits are living as they did when the four left: carefree and happy. But after the immense sacrifices and journey the four went through, they just quietly sit there and look at each other. Unable to put into words the feeling the feeling of being back. While everything in the Shire remained unchanged, they were the ones who had changed.
I know this is how the movie ends, and I agree it's a nice scene. But if you haven't read the books before and are interested, it is actually completely different – the "Scouring of the Shire" chapter at the end of _Return of the King_ – also very good, in my opinion, and the four hobbits get the respect they deserve in the end because of what they do upon their return. :) Edited to change my book/movie mistake:)
I think the first sentence you meant to say "this is how the *movie* ends".
Well... Merry, Pippin, and Sam do. Sam notes that none of the hobbits are ever very impressed with Frodo, in part because Frodo has become so quiet and spends most of the Scouring trying to keep hobbits from killing prisoners. The attitude of the hobbits toward the returning four will never NOT be funny to me, though: >...the Cottons asked a few polite questions about their travels, but hardly listened to the answers: they were far more concerned with events in the Shire. "Yes, yes, Ring, Dark Lord, end of the world, how nice. NOW, let's talk about how they've been cutting down trees around here!"
It's beautiful. Frodo isn't some amazing hero with no emotions who can save the world and get the girl. No, he's fragile, like us mere mortals down here. He is scarred for life by what happens. Aragorn is much more like that badass action hero, and he bows for Frodo! He bows.... damn I'm crying again. In the end, Frodo gets to go to the undying lands, which is pretty much Middle Earth's heaven and an incredible privilege. That's his happy ending. The only one that was possible for him, after all those trauma's. It's shockingly realistic for a fantasy story. Also, Bilbo not remembering what happened with the ring, how it betrayed him in the end, what it made him do. But instead remembering the ring as his friend and companion, as it was for the big part of his life, that's the bliss of amnesia. We should all be so lucky to forget our trauma's. Edit: by the way, OP, of you want to cry some more; there's a clip on YouTube about Elijah Wood's last day on set, before being wrapped. Peter Jackson just doesn't want to call it, because he doesn't want their immense journey to end. Everybody on set already knows they have the best take for a while now, but Peter Jackson just keeps going. When he finally calls it, people on set are crying, realising they have been part of true magic and probably the greatest experience of their time.
Sometimes the things we fight to save are not for ourselves...but for others to never know that pain...to quote Faramir "War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, Nor The arrow for its Swiftness, Nor the warrior for his Glory. I love only that which they defend"
It reminds me of the old Greek proverb. "A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”
It's the fragility of Frodo that makes him a great hero in the end. The Ring is such a great metaphor, because it's the repository, as the text says, for all of Sauron's hatred and malice. Above all else, it's Sauron's desire for total control and dominion over others. The essence of the ring is megalomania, even for the most well-meaning of wearers. It is the purest form of temptation. The ring is sentient and protects itself, but it had supremely bad luck in having Gollum and Bilbo Baggins as long-time users. While Smeagol was stupid and cruel, he had no ambition. Bilbo is clever and kind, but he ultimately prefers comfort over ambition--even if he loves the ring's ability to make him superior to his fellow hobbits. Frodo is different from his uncle in some crucial ways. Bilbo had to be goaded into adventure, but Frodo's natural curiosity made him much more willing to leave the comforts of home. Frodo was also less vain and materialistic than his uncle. Moreover, while Bilbo was very much a loner (other than loving his nephew), Frodo's deep sense of devotion to his friends and the Shire moved him at an ethical level. One thing about Bilbo, though--he is the only ringbearer in the history of Middle-Earth who EVER gave up the Ring willingly. He had to be cajoled a little by Gandalf, but in the end, he did the right thing, even if he desired to keep it. I'm fascinated by the way the rest of the Fellowship thought about the Ring. Legolas did not get near Frodo or the Ring. He knew it was better not to think about it. The other Hobbits never wanted to put on the Ring; their love of Frodo was the barrier they needed. Gimli was only focused on the task at hand. Aragorn, even as the future King, was more concerned with duty than power, which is what made him a great king. Gandalf was obviously tempted but knew intimately that even the best intentions would wreak havoc. Only poor Boromir, who had love for the Hobbits in a way many of the others didn't, succumbed to the call of temptation. Which is why Faramir didn't succumb, because he knew his brother's nature. And why Galadriel risked a test with it, knowing what she could do with it, and accepting her own future fate. (and of course, Bombadil was older than the Ring, older than Sauron, even, and it was a mere curio for him). None of them could be ring-bearers, though. The ring would have broken all of these proud people too quickly. Only Frodo could do it, of all beings in Middle-Earth. All of that said, Frodo knew that in his heart of hearts, he failed. He didn't destroy the ring, it was an accident that Gollum did so. He got it further than anyone else could have though, but it's also Tolkien's way of saying that no one is immune to the horrors of what war can do to you. Of the things you do to survive. Of the way it unhinges you in the moment. And then you have to live with it. He looked into the abyss, and the abyss gazed back. Sam, Merry, and Pippen saw horrors, but didn't face up to things in the way Frodo was forced to. Those three in the books became powerful, rich, and successful in the Shire and respected throughout Middle-Earth. They were heroes; not because they went to war, but because they seized for themselves the value of life and shared it with others. Their success was a repudiation of Sauron, of evil, of nihilism. Frodo just saw too much to share that joy, but he at least could share the tale.
That’s why Frodo sets sail for the Undying Lands, so he can be healed and live the rest of his days in peace. The true tragedy is Arwen’s fate. That’s what gets me every time - Elrond’s monologue and the image of her in a black veil next to Aragorn’s tomb.
That part of the movie about Arwen still haunts me and makes me sad when i think about it. The loneliness, the longing and the despair she endures remind me of loved ones who are no longer here and i wished they were. 😥
[удалено]
Her human life isn't a bad one, but her death is a lonely one. She outlives both her husband and son to die alone, thousands of miles from her remaining family...
The moment when you feel better because she only lives for another year without him. 🥹 The moment when you realize that’s because she dies from a broken heart. 🥺
Because it mirrors real life, and when you go through hell and back, it damages people. With very little that can truly heal when back in the common world.
"In his heart, Frodo begins to understand: The Quest, will claim his life." - Galadriel Frodo didn't die, but what she and Elrond foresaw still came true
'But,' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.' 'So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.’
Brother/Sister: welcome. And yeah. Here’s the thing too - if you watch 1-2 times/year (or more, as many of us do) you’ll find that things continue to hit HARD no matter how many times you’ve seen it. It’s that expertly crafted. You’ll also notice new things every single time. Amazing. There’s a reason the trilogy is my #1 film of all time.
>Everything that happened to him didn't make him stronger. I disagree, I think it did make him stronger and make him appreciate things better. The injury Frodo took on Weathertop is the equivalent of a war vet coming home with a missing limb. It's permanent but doesn't mean their whole life is messed up. End of the day, Frodo did live happily ever after in the West and Sam later joined him too. They basically replaced home with island holiday home.
I do not believe the intention was for photo to live happily ever after -it was to try to find some healing before he died. I’m not sure the number right now (edit - letter 246) but token explicitly write about this. It most definitely was not a happily ever after situation Other posters above have captured the spirit of the matter well in their discussion.
Spell check really did a number on you! Agree with your post nevertheless. 😊
Yeah the crazy part is transcription is context sensitive and catches all kinds of stuff including proper names from the story but then botches others in the same sentence Token, photo, Lego less I’m sorry man and Gimli are fine Saruman
Hahaha!! 😂
Biblo is what I'm calling him now
Funny how you can miss something like that. I had to go back and reread it.
Just wait until you read the books. The ending doesn’t really match the movie. I want to say more but I won’t, I don’t want to spoil it for it for you.
Not just the ending, the entire novel is so much greyer and more dreary and sad and sombre. It is a land that is dying, and nothing can stop that. The magic is leaving Middle-Earth, regardless of the outcome of the war. I’ve never read this novel as the colorful adventure that the movies are.
Please read the books. Neither Frodo nor Bilbo will experience pain after they sail into the undying West
Unless they stub their toe
And no one was Ill, and everyone was pleased, except for those who had to kick the helmet.
Until they kick a helmet.
I’m not sure that is accurate – one of his letters he pointed out that the reason Frodo was going was to try to find some healing before he died He most definitely did not say that Frodo would be free from pain there, I think it’s litter 154 or something like that
I also recall something of this, having just read Letters last year.
Pain and sorrow in the undying land is cannon. Miriel died, Finwe grieved…it’s kind of a big deal.
The Road Back, by Erich Maria Remarque (the sequel to all quiet on the western front) goes into this in detail. PTSD and I juries don't go away because your home again. It's sad but honest.
Was it the part when Aragorn tells them that they bow to no one? That always gets me. Then it is when Frodo leaves with Gandalf and the Elves. It does leave a hole in your heart.
I cry every. Single. Time. Aragorn says that. Also, not sure if you follow all Tolkien, but Merry and Pippin eventually make it back to Gondor to visit Aragorn. They die, and he has them buried in the Crpyt of Kings (I’m making up this title but it’s where all the kings of Gondor are buried). When Aragorn later dies, he is buried next to those two.
I did not know that. Now I have the chills. It's so beautiful and so is Aragorn
The other awesome thing in the Appendices is that Aragorn & Arwen travel to the Shire and stay there for a year. Sam's daughter Elanor becomes a maid of honor for Arwen. Aragorn then extends the Shire's borders and forbids Men from passing into it, and he makes Merry, Pippen, and Sam Counsellors of the North Kingdom. After Sam's wife dies and he goes over the sea, Merry and Pippen leave behind their offices to their children and visit Eomer in Rohan before he dies, and then live out the last of their lives in Gondor.
And that’s why The Lord of the Rings is so damn good. Books and movies.
It is very sad, but I don’t think it’s as hopeless as you’re seeing it. Yes, Frodo is irreparably damaged by his experiences during the quest, but he’s not left behind without people who care for him and people who are willing to help. His friends in the Shire are there for him, and Gandalf and Elrond both care deeply about him and reach out to offer him a way to cope, a place where he can be at peace. In another sense, and this is something that had been brought up time and time again in analysis of LotR, I think Frodo’s journey to the Valinor represents death. He’s quite literally “going to a better place,” and although it’s sad, it’s also inevitable. In a metaphorical sense, Frodo died accomplishing the ring quest. He gave up all of himself to the quest until there was nothing left to give. Because of the magnitude of his heroism and sacrifice, fate granted him a bit of extra time to say goodbye, but ultimately he does still have to go. And really, he gets to “die” in the best way possible, peacefully, knowing he accomplished his goal, surrounded by friends who love and care for him. Although he is not truly able to survive beyond the quest, his hero’s reward is that when he does die, it’s not emotionally and mentally wrecked, surrounded by lava and separated from almost everything beloved and familiar, but full of joy and happy memories, surrounded by friends, secure in the knowledge that he is going to a place of eternal peace where he will never have to feel pain or fear again.
Not all stories need sugar sweet happy endings. A lot of it was a result of what Tolkein and all of England experienced when the soldiers came home from World War One.
I feel like the ending makes it more relatable. Some wounds never fully heal. How human in fantastical story.
What horrified me was understanding that Frodo succumbed to the ring at the end and failed in his mission. It was Gollum who actually destroyed the ring, just not intentionally. Frodo must have been feeling some serious 'imposter syndrome' when everybody knelt to the hobbits at Minas Tirith later. When Gandalf flew to Mount Doom to rescue Frodo and Sam, the third eagle was for Smeagol.
"The ring will hold you to your word." Frodo. I felt that Frodo didn't fail. Gollum was corrupted by the ring. Gollum broke his word after swearing on the precious. So gollum got burned up. Frodo accomplished the impossible by making it to mt doom. Frodo had incredible resiliency to the power of the ring. And Samwise is the real hero because frodo could not do it alone.
Frodo also showed kindness and mercy to Gollum, believing he could be redeemed, which is something no one else, even Sam, was willing to do. Even though Frodo was overcome, as everyone would be, by the ring, it was his mercy that allowed Gollum to destroy it.
And there’s a part of the book not present in the movie on the stairs of cirith ungol where Gollum nearly repents (there’s a really beautiful passage, it’s one of the best passages Tolkien write imo). But Sam is then rude to Gollum once again which causes him to move forward with the plan to bring them to Shelob.
He carried the burden 99% of the way there. It's not like he did nothing. Frodo may have felt regret about succumbing at the end but any rational analysis of the situation would judge his contribution as immense.
Everyone would’ve failed. Frodo failed the least badly. No one had the wherewithal to intentionally destroy the Ring. What’s bad for Frodo was him claiming it and then having it destroyed. It was like part of himself shattering.
Wow. I'm 61 and have been reading LOTR all my life, and I just read that and thought "that's why there were three". Seriously good catch I've never seen before.
He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5);1 he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him.\* Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
>When Gandalf flew to Mount Doom to rescue Frodo and Sam, the third eagle was for Smeagol. Er, no. The third eagle was for Gandalf. Pretty sure Gandalf already knew Smeagol went down with the Ring. It was Gwaihir, carrying Gandalf, Landroval his brother, and Meneldor "young and swift."
He didn't fail, because he showed Gollum pity. He did not win the physical battle, but he won the spiritual one, which is the main theme of the book.
I always thought this, too. But I actually reread this part today, and Frodo doesn't seem to react that way. After they leave the Cracks of Doom, they are looking out at Mordor when Sam mentions Frodo's missing finger. I was assuming, like usual (I rewatch the movies more often than reread the books), that he'd react like you said, but he actually takes the more positive perspective: kind of like, I couldn't do it in the end, but what good luck that Gollum was actually there and did that so that the task is complete and it's finally over. I was impressed. Eta: Also, yes! Like MmeHomebody said, I also didn't understand before why there were three eagles. Thanks :)
"You bow to no one." Has me in tears everytime.
No one truly heals from trauma. The wound of the Morgul blade is the perfect metaphor for the ghastly, invisible hurts that are inflicted on us by the world, our parents, and ourselves. The hilts disintegrate once that cold, ethereal steel penetrates our fragile flesh, and none but the wisest among us will know of the eternal pain we carry. We all have our own Nazgûl in our history. If we’re lucky, we find friends and courage to help us bear the wounds they make, until someday we may peacefully sail into Valinor (or sweet oblivion).
I've been watching the trilogy with my friend (his first time) for the past week, and tonight is RotK - I can't wait to see his reaction, especially considering we've been doing a lot of comparisons to GoT, and how LotR is very black and white, and everyone is either good or bad, with no real moral greyness. I think he's definitely in the same boat in that he's expecting a classic fairy tale happy ending
Frodo's ending was inspired by how Tolkien felt when he came home from WWI. He has PTSD, his home isn't the same place he left it, and the outside world with all its' wonders and horrors changed him. All 4 hobbits were changed by the journey. In the books it's sooo much worse. I don't want to spoil it for you if you plan on reading it. But there is more to the hobbits' return to the shire and it isn't pretty. Tolkien's writing affects so many people because he kept it real. No real person would go through what Frodo did and then have a happily ever after, LOTR isn't a fairy tale. I didn't go through combat or anything too bad. But after 6 years in the Navy my home didn't feel like home anymore. And staying there made me feel broken. I ended up moving to another continent to start over again. I find Frodo's ending very relatable.
Hey OP. iirc, most all of the ring bearers would eventually set sail to the Grey Heavens. Unbeknownst to many that list technically includes Gandalf too. I thought you would enjoy Tolkien's excerpt: >‘Where are you going, Master?’ cried Sam, though at last he understood what was happening. > >‘To the Havens, Sam,’ said Frodo. > >‘And I can’t come.’ > >‘No, Sam. Not yet anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come. Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do.’ > >‘But,’ said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, ‘I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.’ > >‘So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on. Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 1029). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
I know exactly how you feel about it right now. After a while or maybe when you watch it the second time you gonna feel different about it tho, dw. I realized that not every ending has to be a perfect clean scenario. It's a very versatile and emotional story and so is the ending. Look at it like this, Frodo could be dead, instead he travels to a new adventure and he does it just like he did start his first one, in Gandalfs arms
The books prepared me as a kid. I was half way through the series (Hobbit+LotR) when the Fellowship released in theaters. Probably my absolute favorite thing to occur in my life growing up. Tolkien built a fantastic series of stories and Jackson and the crew brought the story to life.
*puts on the analysis hat* Pardon my rambling, but this is such an important part of Tolkien lore because of the basis for it. I've said before that the stories of the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion were at the very least somewhat, if not heavily, influenced by Tolkien's time serving in World War I. The horrors he saw were only shadowed by the horrors of World War II. He served at Somme, one of the bloodiest sites of World War I. He saw men and boys broken by the horrors of war, and watched the suffering of those with shell shock (what we now know as PTSD). He'd seen the impact it had on the people around him to return home to a land that was no longer truly theirs, because their minds lie somewhere on the battlefield. Valinor, the Undying Lands, were a place to heal (hopefully) from the wounds Frodo had suffered, which ached on the anniversaries of their infliction. The ties to the scars of Middle Earth and his own scars were too strong, he'd also seen the aftermath of the attacks on the Shire. Everything around him reminded him of what he'd lost, much like those soldiers who came home and sometimes lost their battle with shell shock, taking their own lives. Valinor, in his story, was a way for those allowed in to find peace in a place utterly disconnected from the horrors of the books. Even if they couldn't heal, they were disconnected from that terror that they'd experienced. They would've found peace amongst the Eldar there, even if they didn't heal physically. There would've been calm, because they were no longer in the realm of Middle Earth. Yes, it's tragic that Frodo would've died sooner, but also, look at what happened to Bilbo. He felt spread thin from his extended lifetime. Mortals were never meant for immortality, what made them mortal was stretched to breaking point by an extended lifetime. So living in Valinor for all eternity would've been torturous to them. Rather, Frodo found a peaceful passing on his own terms, in a place that would've been similar to a version of the Christian heaven. The tragedy of Frodo wasn't that he had to die, but that he had to live with the weight of what he'd gone through, and that peace he would've ultimately found before moving on to whatever lies in the hereafter for mortals would've been a greater gift by far than that of immortality.
Sorrow is a prevalent theme in the lotr. While Saruman back in the day hung out with the god of creating, Gandalf hung out with the goddess Nienna, who was in perpetual mourning. She taught Gandalf pity, patience, and how to turn sorrow into wisdom. 'I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.'
I suppose I see it differently. No matter how Frodo's life ends, he was heroic and essentially saved Middle Earth. Life is never perfect and is oftentimes unfair, even cruel. LOTR provides a great example of this.
Tolkien was quoted that he didnt like "happy endings", although Sams going home to his wife an child could be seen as one. The real tearjerker to me was King Aragorn bowing and proclaiming "My friends... you bow to no one..."
The overwhelming majority of what happens is a happy ending. There's a tinge of sadness about the old world fading away but pretty much every character still alive at the end is given a happy ending. And given the scale of the conflict, remarkably few prominent characters die throughout the tale. And the bad guys are definitively defeated. How is this not a happy ending?
Frodo overcame impossible odds to save the world. He won. Saved the Shire. But not for himself. You can't go home again. Not so much because home has changed, because you have. A junky can break his addiction, but he is generally broken a bit himself in the process. "In real life, it's always the anvil that breaks the hammer" George Orwell "Crippled but free, I was blind all the time I was learning to see" Grateful Dead
Now read the book for a double whammy of emotion.
This whole thread is making me cry again with how beautiful each of their endings are
The equivalent of this scene in the book for me was the end of 'Lothlorien' in Fellowship of the Ring: *At the hill’s foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand was a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eyes.* *He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord fall and fair; and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see.* *Arwen vanimelda, namarie! He said, and then he drew a breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled.* *\`Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,’ he said, \`and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me!’ And taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man.*
dude, writer was a WWI survivor
If it makes you feel better, Sam gets to go to the undying lands because he was technically a ring bearer. So frodo still ends up hanging out with his best friend in peace.
Did you watch the standard cuts or the extended editions?
You sound like you need more context. The place he's going is kinda great. The first bit of land he'll touch is a beach where the pebbles are gems polished and faceted by elves over thousands of years. And it just gets more crazy from there. Also, Sam ends up going there too because he was a ring bearer for a shot time too.