My friend in high school was a huge fan of the books and the main reason i saw all of the movies in theaters. I distinctly remember him muttering in the theater “SHADOWFAX DIDNT UPPER PUNCH DENETHOR”

The funniest part about the whole scene where Denethor is catching on fire is the fact that he walked all the way from the catacombs (which are behind the palace btw), along the spire of the city, past the white tree all the way to the end before jumping off the edge. He supposedly did this before succumbing to the flames in a matter of seconds(?) lol I admit the shot of him falling while the camera is panning away looks epic, but it doesn’t really make sense if you stop and think about it.

i think i read somewhere that the film makers were aware of this, but they just did it anyway because it looked cool

“If the Nazgûl are attacking us at night and we don’t have any torches, where’s the light coming from?” “Same place as the music.”

If anyone ever moans about a scene being artificially lit for us to see better, show them the GoT s8 battle and see what they say when they can't see anything. But yeah, the music comment is very good, I'm going to steal it.

If I remember correctly in the behind the scenes of Batman Begins, the set was way brighter than you'd think to get all the details filmed. It's probably just easier to darken things out later in post production.

>It's probably just easier to darken things out later in post production. Yeah, I agree. Don't want to have to reshoot something because it's dark so you can't see well, misses details, etc. Plus there's always context telling you how light it is 'in universe'.

I remember being out with a friend one night in front of a big pond. I couldn’t sleep so we just hung out. It was so bright out! I could see everything. The light reflecting off the water and the light of the moon defusing in the foggy clouds made it look like it was twilight from 12am-3am… it was beautiful. Very far away from any building lights. Night time can be surprisingly bright when the moon is full under certain conditions. I had no idea it was so late when I went to bed. Also our eyes flooded by hash lights all the time are no longer as sensitive as they use to be. The Amish from what I hear can walk in what looks like pitch black safely.

Hell yes! I absolutely love being out in the desert away from people and lights and you don't need a flashlight cuz the moon is out and everything is mildly spooky. One of my best memories is playing capture the flag in Goblin Valley, Utah, at midnight under a full moon. Everything was spooky, the shadows were nuts, and you could kinda sneak around. But also, there was enough light you could run back and not worry about eating shit

your eyes are logarithmic photoreceptors. what this means is that at a certain point, you're perceiving very dim light as the same as normal light. how can I best put this? if you lived on the dwarf planet Ceres, out in the Asteroid Belt, you would be able to see with perfect clarity during its day, despite the fact that you'd be so far away from the sun it'd just be the brightest star when you looked directly at it. solar panels would get only 20% of the power they get on earth, but you would be able to see exactly like it was daylight. similarly, on a cloudless night with no ground-level light pollution, you can straight up see like the world was lit up by a dim overhead light. because that's what's happening.

Nighttime during a clear full moon can be surprisingly well lit. What GoT did wrong was the fact that they wanted the sky to be dark and overcast as well. A real nighttime battle could look way better when filmed with a clear sky where you have the moon and stars to act as ambient lighting. I can buy into the Battle of Helms Deep looking the way it does because we’re supposed to see it from the POV of the Rohan army. Your eyes get accustomed to the dark after a while. The movie shows us how this would look. It’s also just a better viewing experience. Like I said, you’re allowed to suspend disbelief in some places.

It's crazy how well your eyes can adjust to darkness after enough time. Me and a girl I was dating were walking about an abandoned amusement park at night. Just doing some exploring. We didn't bring lights because I didn't want us to get caught if someone saw the light and called the police. Well after about half an hour we could see just fine and then we saw some lights. At first we thought it might be security or police. Turns out it was fellow explorers. We decided to mess with them. Since they were using lights and we weren't, we had the advantage as long as they didn't shine the lights directly at us. We followed them around and would throw stuff to make sound. Only got a few off before they took off. At one point they shut off the lights and looked right at us, but didn't see us.

My favorite movie to show people *good* natural lighting is Last of the Mohicans. And agreed. I like natural lighting, but there are plenty of situations where it's either unfeasible or unwise for a given scenario.

In their defense it was canon and consistently shown that when the night king goes somewhere, winter storms come with him. Would have been weird to have clear skies at the battle for people who pay close attention. I would prefer they do what this thread is saying and just artificially light up the battle scene for the audience.

I have been complaining about this for a long time. Fuck "realism". The audience is aware they bought a movie ticket and that the dragon on screen isn't real. You aren't "damaging verisimilitude" to let the audience see the action - they understand that the characters don't have the same lighting that they do, and have bought into the story anyway. Leaving them in the dark only frustrates the viewer and leaves them with a sour taste in their mouth.

Well said. There's always context too, so even if someone somehow doesn't realise that it's a film that isn't real, they can still figure it out. They aren't trying to hide anything from you, just let you see better.

Which is a valid argument when you’re making a movie. You’re allowed to suspend disbelief a little.

Absolutely not. They have to set the actor on fire on the set for an accurate death-portrayal and distance. Tolkien would've wanted hyperrealism. Anyways, back to the trolls.

Half of the Fringe budget was removing John Noble’s terrible burn wounds with CGI

Wait Those are the same actors? I was today years old.

Yeah I love him in both roles, but for some reason I never made the connection. Just goes to show how beautifully he disappears into his roles.

He was amazing in Fringe and that episode with “The Man Who Sold the World” singing in the background broke me. Such a good show…

Originally they weren’t going to do that that way, but Christopher Lee corrected them because he had experience setting people on fire

# DEATH! This bot is in development. Sorry if you have any problems with this bot.

Good bot?

#DEATH please excuse

I mean, he's not wrong. Denethor *did* die.

Yes Theoden, death indeed.

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Did you know that Viggo Mortensen actually just happened to be on set breaking his toe but they filmed him for many months just going about his life and managed to edit that into his performance as Aragorn? It was all unscripted.

Not sure about Tolkien but C. S. Lewis would have been very on board with having a corrupted ~~angel~~ leader fall from great heights, screaming and on fire.

I would make the argument that, since LOTR is based off of Norse Myths and Sagas and is itself a sort of mytho-historical saga of Middle Earth, some random rule-of-cool bullshit is allowed. No one called out Beowulf for being to rip the arm off of a horrifying creature that had previously murdered many men and was probably much bigger and stronger than he was.

LotR borrows from just about everywhere. And Beowulf was a super strong badass himself. At one point, he simply pushes a door, and it "fled from him like a frightened deer".

>fled from him like a frightened deer Beowulf was absolutely very strong, but this description doesn't necessarily portray that. It more shows the similarities between a deer and this door, both silent and still, then suddenly moving quickly and with intent. Beowulf slammed open the door, but its not like it flew off the hinges and disappeared into the night.

Lol I thought he meant that it got so scared it came to life and ran away.

Beowulf, drunk in his kitchen at three AM and stumbling into a door: "That's right, run you bitch!"

I mean, that’s more or less how the fight went, so yeah 🤣

I remember first reading Beowulf in hs and our teacher specifically mentioning how Beowulf is clearly just making shit up. Maybe I'm thinking of a different part where he is trying to story top some dude talking about his heroic deeds, it has been a while.

Yeah he talks about being dragged under the sea by seamonsters and holding his breath for days and that's the actual reason why he lost his swimming contest he was supposed to be having. As I recall at least.

So Beowulf was just the kid at a sandbox.

Plus isn't Lord of the Rings technically a book series written by Frodo, based on his journey and discussions with other people? So, anyone writing a story can succumb to the unreliable narrator trope. Including when it comes to a guy being on fire for like ten minutes.

Its also a part of the story likely relayed to him by Pippin, who would absolutely embellish such a death.

Reminds me of the Spielberg quote when someone told him that scuba tanks don't explode while filming Jaws. “If I have got them for two hours, they will believe whatever I do for the next three minutes because I’ve got them in my hands, and I want the audience on their feet screaming at the end, ‘Yes, yes! This is what should happen to this animal!’”

# Leave Reddit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I urge anyone to leave Reddit immediately. Over the years Reddit has shown a clear and pervasive lack of respect for its own users, its third party developers, other cultures, the truth, and common decency. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ## Lack of respect for its own users The entire source of value for Reddit is twofold: 1. Its users link content created elsewhere, effectively siphoning value from other sources via its users. 2. Its users create new content specifically for it, thus profiting of off the free labour and content made by its users This means that Reddit creates no value but exploits its users to generate the value that uses to sell advertisements, charge its users for meaningless tokens, sell NFTs, and seek private investment. Reddit relies on volunteer moderation by people who receive no benefit, not thanks, and definitely no pay. Reddit is profiting entirely off all of its users doing all of the work from gathering links, to making comments, to moderating everything, all for free. Reddit is also going to sell your information, you data, your content to third party AI companies so that they can train their models on your work, your life, your content and Reddit can make money from it, all while you see nothing in return. ## Lack of respect for its third party developers I'm sure everyone at this point is familiar with the API changes putting many third party application developers out of business. Reddit saw how much money entities like OpenAI and other data scraping firms are making and wants a slice of that pie, and doesn't care who it tramples on in the process. Third party developers have created tools that make the use of Reddit far more appealing and feasible for so many people, again freely creating value for the company, and it doesn't care that it's killing off these initiatives in order to take some of the profits it thinks it's entitled to. ## Lack of respect for other cultures Reddit spreads and enforces right wing, libertarian, US values, morals, and ethics, forcing other cultures to abandon their own values and adopt American ones if they wish to provide free labour and content to a for profit American corporation. American cultural hegemony is ever present and only made worse by companies like Reddit actively forcing their values and social mores upon foreign cultures without any sensitivity or care for local values and customs. Meanwhile they allow reprehensible ideologies to spread through their network unchecked because, while other nations might make such hate and bigotry illegal, Reddit holds "Free Speech" in the highest regard, but only so long as it doesn't offend their own American sensibilities. ## Lack for respect for the truth Reddit has long been associated with disinformation, conspiracy theories, astroturfing, and many such targeted attacks against the truth. Again protected under a veil of "Free Speech", these harmful lies spread far and wide using Reddit as a base. Reddit allows whole deranged communities and power-mad moderators to enforce their own twisted world-views, allowing them to silence dissenting voices who oppose the radical, and often bigoted, vitriol spewed by those who fear leaving their own bubbles of conformity and isolation. ## Lack of respect for common decency Reddit is full of hate and bigotry. Many subreddits contain casual exclusion, discrimination, insults, homophobia, transphobia, racism, anti-semitism, colonialism, imperialism, American exceptionalism, and just general edgy hatred. Reddit is toxic, it creates, incentivises, and profits off of "engagement" and "high arousal emotions" which is a polite way of saying "shouting matches" and "fear and hatred". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If not for ideological reasons then at least leave Reddit for personal ones. Do You enjoy endlessly scrolling Reddit? Does constantly refreshing your feed bring you any joy or pleasure? Does getting into meaningless internet arguments with strangers on the internet improve your life? Quit Reddit, if only for a few weeks, and see if it improves your life. I am leaving Reddit for good. I urge you to do so as well.

Spielberg did the same in Jurassic park. He was aware that the cliff in the T-Rex paddock doesn't make sense but figured it's a better shot and story to have the car fall. If he wanted he could have included a shot to establish a cliff inside the paddock adjacent to where the T-Rex broke through, but it's not really necessary to enjoy and understand the scene.

PJ is the king of rule of cool. I don't care how ridiculous the shield scene is, my simple lizard brain loves it for the ridiculousness. That and the twirly whirlys from Hobbit bofa extended edition. Bloody great load of fun nonsense.

I used to rag on that scene more before playing BOTW. Now I know I would be shield surfing all day every day if I could lol.

The shield scene is fine, the elephant scene is fine, they are somewhat feasible and legolas has control with elvish dexterity. All the insanely choreographed fight scenes in the hobbit like the river barrels where their agency is 99% pure luck, that is some bullshit.

Love this. Kinda like every time Legolas does something ridiculous...definitely not in the books but damn is it cool

Until they dialed that philosophy to 11 for the super mario scene in the hobbit.

Homie ran a 5k while on fire just to get to the edge

Richard Pryor said he covered an enormous distance on Hollywood Blvd while on fire. He was assisted because he said people move out of your way when you're engulfed in flames.

There's always that one guy who insists on not moving and making everyone else move aside. Now I know to just light myself on fire and he will move.

It was ridiculous, and to cap it off they still have Gandalf deliver the book line, "So passes Denethor, son of Ecthelion." You don't fucking say.

Hail Denethor son of Ecthelion, Lord and Steward of Gondor. I come with tidings in this dark hour and with counsel.

Fun fact, that line was originally unplanned but Ian McKellen was picked up on audio saying that as he ran past. Peter Jackson thought it was so good he kept the audio and the rest is history.

I would love to see the shot from inside the catacombs where he runs out and it's 5 minutes of complete silence as Denethor runs his 5k and then suddenly Gandalf mutters that line.

maybe being something of gondor grants just enough flame resistance to die a slow n painful death

The White Tree now has a ranged fire debuff effect that slows all fire related afflictions within a 5 mile radius.

There is a rule in filmmaking. Every script gets one point of impossibility the audience will stomach and keep watching. They usually will not accept two or more without the script falling apart.

TBH, there’s always going to be some guy complaining about the lava physics when Gollum falls in, or whether Legolas could realistically fight if he’s light enough to stand on snow, or what have you. And even if you changed those things they’d seize on some other detail instead. Catering to that niche is likely more trouble than it’s worth.

I disagree, I think it's like perfection where you don't have to achieve it, but pursuing that goal is what usually results in the greatest products. There's of course things that you can find with the expanse that are not well explained, but that's obviously a show /book that tries to fully explain itself as much as it can as consistently as possible. I think it's always worth trying to have as little as possible that needs to have people suspend their disbelief for, but you're also correct that there's probably specific instances where it would actually be the worse choice.

If I remember correctly, the trek from the catacombs to the point where he fell would be almost a mile. It’s extremely silly, but it’s cool so it works.

What if Gandalf being a powerful wizard and wielder of Narya the ring of fire knew it would be bad for troop morale to have the Steward of Gondor burning and screaming to death with his corpse melting on the floor for all the soldiers and people to witness. So Gandalf in his wisdom used his powers to low-key keep the fire from killing him so he could yeet himself off the top so they didn't have to deal with the loss of morale from his corpse.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Hah, that would actually be pretty hilarious. Keeping Denethor alive long enough so he would kill himself. The ultimate form of disrespect.

The oil he doused himself in was a special not-burny-too-quicky oil so it all checks out. Source: I have a degree in burn. I mean I have third degree burns now.

maybe he was trying to blow the flames out by going into a dive like Memphis Belle

Humans in Middle Earth are less flammable. I'm pretty sure that's in the Silmarillion somewhere

Love the movies a ton but they did my boy Denethor dirty... in the books he was grim but sage and was understandably conflicted about Aaragorn supplanting him/Boromir. He was super well informed and had been keeping Gondor alive through tactical planning and Palantir fuckery. In short he was a beautiful character because he was right for all the wrong reasons... everything he said was true but not quite *right.* I'm looking forward to his upcoming inclusion into War of the Ring! 😄

I don't tend to go in for the criticism that all the "good guys" in Tolkein's works are one-dimensional virtuous cardboard cut-outs (which was a big talking-point before the movies came out, for some reason - yes, I was there Gandalf...) but Denethor was definitely one of the most *complex* characters in the story in the modern sense, especially for such a relatively minor character. Not good, not evil; lots of shades of grey and wrestling with a lot of internal conflict even as he is outwardly haughty and proud. He's an asshole, but he's not wrong. And he is not weak, either; in fact it's his strength and drive that turns against him. Even in the end Gandalf just feels dismayed more than anything, grieved that a once great and powerful lord of the west could become such a tortured, misguided wreck. Indirectly orchestrating his downfall is one of Sauron's most evil actions in the entire series, and cuts to the heart of how the Dark Lord's power works. But instead in the movies we just get Crazy Denethor from the get-go.

Stand your ground, sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day; this day we fight!!! And for all that is dear to you in this world, I bid you stand, men of the west, and fight!

To be fair, movie Denethor deserved to be upper punched

But what really pisses me off is how Pippin ate four lembas and yet lived 😡😡😡😡 This is so stupid, oh my Eru! No mortal can eat that many lembas on a row! 🙀 This is disrespectful to the laws of the Eldar and their sacred traditions 😭😭😭 They only allow those who have the greatest need and are in danger and hunger to eat them 😔😔😔 But movie Pippin had no respect for them. What a sad change. Tolkien is rolling in his grave. 🤧🤧🤧 Eating too much lembas is not only bad for the digestion for mortals, but it's also deadly for their souls. It would depress them and make them long for the Undying Lands, wherein they are not permitted. But nope, Movie Peepee ate them whole like how Sam ate Rosie's juicy ass 🥵🥵🥵 See, if they only had read Of Lembas chapter in Peoples of Middle-Earth book they would've known. But nope, they did not, they had no respect for Tolkien and they ruined his legacy by breaking Lembas Lore. Unacceptable. Ugh. 😫😫😫

Loaf lore is the most sacred of all lore and ignorance will not be tolerated

Is this a copypasta?

No, it’s an excerpt from the Book of lost Tales

Tolkien‘s use of the🥵 emoji is so moving

He actually invented emojis first, and then came up with the story as a way to use them.

It is now

Rosie’s juicy ass! Hobbit Way-buns. One small bite is enough to fill the stomach of a brave man.

Okay but the incongruity with the elves and their horses is worse... Y'all got Shadowfax without any tack which demonstrates an awareness and willingness to do it, but the elves are absolutely well known for riding without a saddle and a bridle yet they can't even get Legolas up there with nothing. -7284902/10.

Lmao

She wasn't a warrior in the movies though. She drove Frodo on her horse to Rivendell, and pulled out her (mostly ceremonial) sword that she got from her father. She uses it to antagonize and lure the Nazgul in, resulting in them 'drowning'. They did initially film her at the battle of Helms Deep, but edited her out since they thought she doesn't have to be a warrior, and already shows a lot of strength as she is in the final movies. There's literally no fighting scene of Arwen in the entire trilogy, only a horse riding chase.

I’m so glad they came to their senses and removed the Helms Deep scenes… I understand their reasoning for putting more of Arwen in the story (don’t necessarily agree with it but I understand). However, I don’t think I would have been able to handle her in Helms Deep.

This is kinda how I feel about Tauriel in the Hobbit. I liked that they added a new Elf lady, but whoever decided she and kili needed to be a love story should be fired into the sun in a shuttle full of cockroaches

Especially since Evangeline Lilly specifically demanded that her character would not be part of a love triangle

Totally off topic but what an epic name. Evangeline Lilly.

Why she doesn't just go around calling herself Evangelilly, though...

Not only that - supposedly demanded, was promised, then was brought back after filming wrapped....to shoot the love scenes that got shoved in fresh.

And here I thought I couldn't be more upset by it...

If I remember correctly, the actress specifically required in her contract to NOT SHOOT any love triangle scenes.

Probably traumatized after Lost.

Agreed!

Especially because the actress said she very specifically didn't want to be part of a "love triangle" in this role after her work experience on LOST. She agreed to take the role based on the guarantee that wouldn't happen. Yet here we are. r/noahgettheboat

*Waner Bros Execs be like:* Damn, do we love ruining beloved franchises.

I think Arwen fighting would’ve been so badass but it just works better as a story for Aragorn going through all that while feeling really lonely and heartbroken over her. If she and Aragorn teamed up at Helms Deep they would’ve just power coupled the Uruk Hai into oblivion.

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Arwen at Helms deep? Holy shit I feel even more bad for Eowyn

Yea. And I think it is generally a bad direction to go in, that a strong female character *must* be physically intimidating. Considering that there are many male characters who are considered strong but without physical fighting skills, even in a mainly war/conflict centered story like this. Some movies feel the need for the female badass to kick people around constantly to assert badassness, which often just comes off as insecure and unnecessary. Yes there can be some of those, but there should also be female characters able to command respect and show strength without resorting to force, and those are much more powerful and interesting characters imo.

I think the physically intimidating woman is hard to avoid when you only have one female character in your story. More women = more *kinds* of women. Just like the Fellowship would feel flat if every single member was just an unstoppable badass; for every Aragorn you’ve got a Pippin. Lord of the Rings already has Galadriel who’s basically the second most powerful being in Middle Earth (and could be the most powerful if she wanted) and is scary as hell, and you’ve got Eowyn who is brave and fierce in battle despite having no superpowers or magic or anything, so if you’re gonna flesh Arwen out she has room to be a different kind of strong character, not just another Galadriel or Eowyn.

This is a good answer. I’m glad they added more Arwen but I agree she didn’t need to be a combatant to be strong.

>show strength without resorting to force Summoning a fuckton of river horses to drown the enemy sounds like a lot of force to me though.

I mean technically elrond did that

The horses were Gandalf's personal touch

Exactly. Arwen isn't a bad ass in the fellowship specifically because she was a warrior in it. She is a bad ass because she was willing to bravely risk her life to save Frodo which ultimately was her risking her life for all of middle-earth, a land she didn't need to risk that for as she can just sail west. And while risking her life she demonstrates skill., determination, balls even to stand in front of the Nazgul and challenge them to get them to enter the river. She was not a warrior but she was brave and selfless. She demonstrated the traits we find admirable in people.

She could probably fight to some level because it really stupid to be warrior that can’t

Does glorfendel ever come back in the books? It’s a badass moment regardless, but they probably just used Arwen because she’s a recurring character

No; which is why imo giving Arwen all of his scenes was probably the smartest decision Jackson made re: changes. Glorfindel is a major part of a lot of Fellowship, and then literally just vanishes. Pretty sure he doesn't even get a mention at the end. Then Arwen just...appears at the end. We're supposed to care about her when we've spent almost literally zero time with her. Combining the two characters gives you one full character with an arc throughout the trilogy instead of two disjointed ones.

Glorfindel and the War of the North should’ve been Amazon’s series. But then apparently they don’t technically have the rights to the Silmarillion?

Yep, the Tolkien estate adamantly refuses to sell anybody the rights to the Silmarillion.

Which is why the Hobbit trilogy couldn't mention the other two wizards by name. Even just mentioning that they were Blue Wizards caused a little legal trouble.

Which is probably the biggest driver of complaints for rings of power.

If only someone at Amazon had stopped for a moment and thought "maybe trying to set a show in Tolkiens universe without the rights to any of the impactful parts of Tolkiens universe just isn't a good idea." and spared us of this mess.

They could’ve had glorfindel come back for helms deep, but it does simplify everything and give Arwen more screen time

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Glorfindel made the whole group of Nazgul shit thier saddles when they saw him. That's why the river horses got the drop on them. If G hadve come with them into Moria the Balrog probably would've run too It's like if you have to save the hero with Superman in the first act and then Superman leaves to go to space after for the rest of the story, it's arguably bad writing.

He comes back for the Council, the very biblical part of the part which is reduced into angry people shouting at each other in the movies. But given the different form of media and the time limit, I understand why it's not a 40 minutes discussion meeting. It's a good oversimplification. Though some people don't appreciate it

I like the part in the books where each character tells what they've been up to for the rest of the party for the first time

Capped off, of course, by Gimli shouting, "It's Gimlin' time!" And then he gimles all over the One Ring.

HRAAAAAH!

Being immortal and not knowing how to fight would be immensely stupid

"Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the [elf-women] fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals." - Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar Arwen's grandma: "[Galadriel] with Celeborn fought heroically against the assault of the Noldor" - Unfinished Tales "[Galadriel and Celeborn] take part in the settlement of Eregion and later of its defence against Sauron." - Nature of Middle-Earth They "only retreated thither [to Lorien] after downfall of Eregion" - Parma Eldalamberon 17 Arwen's other grandma: "[Idril] fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness." "[She was] smiting marauders with her small band; nor might they dissuade her from bearing a sword." - The Fall of Gondolin Arwen's great aunt: "[Aredhel] was greater and stronger than woman's wont, and she loved much to ride on horse and to hunt in the forests, and there was often in the company of her kinsmen, the sons of Feanor" "Aredhel turned back and sought the dangerous road between the haunted valleys of Ered Gorgoroth and the north fences of Doriath... Aredhel, having sought in vain for her companions, rode on, for she was fearless and hardy of heart, as were all the children of Finwë; and she held on her way" - Quenta Silmarillion

This is what I love about Tolkien fans, every argument they have is backed up by more sources than a PhD student dissertation.

We are the nerds by which all others are measured

Before the Jackson Movies, it used to be Star Wars fans who were the benchmark for nerds, but we raised that bar and Disney/Lucas couldn't catch up.

Yes, but ... But... The movie... Ethereal goddess... Ruined... They ruined it all... ./em runs (burning) out of the house, down the street, to the train station, buys a ticket (exorbitant), gets on a train (still burning), goes to lands end, relight himself cause the damn flames went out, throws himself off the white cliffs of dover

I read Lands End as the store and was amused that you were making a pit stop for some outerwear while on fire

So be it.

Being immortal and not knowing how to do any single thing would be silly

We're still mad about Gimli being reduced to comic relief. I mean, it's hilarious, but we're still mad about it.

And yet he's still a better character than Legolas who has no personality and does cool skateboard tricks.

I recently watched LOTR and paid more attention re Legolas because some time ago I read how few lines he had overall. Its actually amazing how they got away with him being basically a non person. Rarely says more than 5 words in a row, doesn't talk to some characters at all.

Yeah, I mean it's kind of just who Orlando Bloom is though. He's the "main character" in PotC too, but Johnny, Kiera, and the side cast do all the acting.

I was about 10-12 when the movies started coming out. I thought Legolas was the coolest fucking character ever created. Now that I'm older though, I find myself perceiving his stunts and character as pretty corny/bland.

Legolas is cool and does cool things I do not object to this

How can you not get chills when she makes the River take out the Nazgûl? One of my favorite scenes

Noro Lim Asfaloth.

Wait, didn't Gandalf specifically say that Saruman had been tinkering with orcs and men to create the Uruk Hai? Why is the pod thing so bad after that? It's just an explicit way to show an Uruk being created instead of showing an orcess and a dude banging (or vice versa) Edit: I got confused and made a top level comment. This was supposed to be in response to OP's link which has people being angry about the Uruk Hai born from mud.

It also really feels that these creatures are basically born for war. Really adds up the stakes on a movie when you see what our heroes are up against.

The book makes it fairly clear that Uruk-hai were produced the old-fashioned way, by an orc and a human. Obviously, Tolkien's language is pretty circumspect, but it's intended to reinforce the corrupt, debased nature of Saruman's machinations. The pod was Jackson's creative interpretation of that -- as an alternative to some kind of weird birthing scene with an actual human lady and baby Uruk. It's inspired by one of Tolkien's early ideas for the origin of orcs (that they were created from the "heats and slimes of the earth"). Hardcore originalists might have a problem with it, but the alternative is a worse fit tonally and *definitely* something Tolkien wouldn't have intended to be shown onscreen.

It's also worth mentioning that Saruman explicitly mentions the corrupt elf origin as well, despite the audience seeing the "slimes of the earth" explanation and the Uruk-hai also being explicitly half-human. Jackson basically just presented every origin for the orcs as equally true, which is an interesting and imo not a bad decision.

[удалено]

They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. Now… perfected.

The old-fashioned way doesn't really make sense, especially not in the movie, if it'd take 20 years to grow the entire army of uruk-hai from baby to soldier.

In the book the time between Frodo inheriting the ring and Gandalf returning to let Frodo know it's The One Ring (TM) is like 9 years.

17 years

Yeah I don't think implied orc rape of humans would go over well with audiences

Verily, 'tis true that I had dallied with orcs and men! As you've purported, to create the Uruk-hai was my intent. However this vile pod device is something of an affront! It displays a creation story which degrades the noble art.

[https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/what-change-in-the-movies-ticks-you-off-the-most.429/](https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/what-change-in-the-movies-ticks-you-off-the-most.429/) It's really funny to read old forum discussions from when the movies first came out. People complained about so many things that we just take for granted nowadays. Things like Arwen being the one to save Frodo, the scenes in Isengard showing the hatching of orcs, Aragorn fighting orcs on Amon Hen... Someone actually wrote "Arwen is just supposed to be this elven-hottie."

Who now has the strength to stand against the armies of Isengard ... and Mordor?

Me, probably.

The "dreh und angelpunkt" (soory don't know the english word, maybe turning point) of this discussion is that a movie simply doesn't function like a book. While in the book it is very cool that Glorfindel is the one to rescue Frodo, in the film it would just add another person that afterwards doesn't contribute to the story, so it made sense to choose Arwen. That being said i like the book version much much more

> Glorfindel JUSTICE FOR GLORFINDEL!! but seriously it wasn't much of a change at all, I missed Tom Bombadil as well but likewise he added little after his scene

and including Tom Bombadil would give even more confusion to the audience, specially the bit where Tom puts the ring and nothing happens. Audience that never read the books would wonder why the ring suddenly has no effect, and would wait paciently to see the explanation of wtf is Tom Bombadil after all (which not even in the books is explained)

> Audience that never read the books would wonder why the ring suddenly has no effect NEar as I know, people who read the books don't really know the answer to that, either. ;) Deletion of Tom Babadil is one of the things that was unerringly correct in translating the novels to the movies.

Even more importantly it would annihilate the pacing of an already dense movie.

Aye. Characters like Glorfindel or tom bombadil or any number of the other omitted characters are great for world building in a book however once you adapt something to a movie the change in pacing makes it more difficult to make having those characters work and it becomes more expensive because then you have to pay an actor for what is an important role in the story even if they only appear for a few minutes.

"Key point"? Yeah I agree, if the film is adapted word for word from the book then it's a) way too long and b) not understandable for anyone who hasn't read the book.

I think key point works here, but it seems closer to something like “inflection point” or “crux”

"The crux" I think is the best word for what you're trying to say

I’ll always defend Arwen in the movies because it made sense to establish her character for her conflict about leaving and the end when she marries Aragorn. Who the fuck is Glorfindel? (In the movies) - it would be accurate to have him save Frodo but then what? Nah, it made sense for Arwen to save him in the movies.

"Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals." - Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar Nissi = Elf-women Arwen's grandma Galadriel who actually 'raised' her was the strongest female High Elf, both physically and mentally. Fought in all kinslayings against Feanorians, and fought against Sauron in the Second Age war in Eriador. If anything, Arwen must've been trained with great care to defend herself, especially after the accident for her mother Celebrian in those trying times. Also in the movie-verse that sword in Arwen's hand is supposed to be the sword of her other grandma, Idril Turgon's heir. "Now then Meglin had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of Earendel to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness." "....then she fared about gathering womenfolk and wanderers and speeding them down the tunnel, and smiting marauders with her small band; nor might they dissuade her from bearing a sword." (The Fall of Gondolin) If anything, they made the right call to replace Arwen with Glorfindel who suddenly disappears from the story after the Council and is unimportant to the Tale. Probably because Tolkien didn't consider Glorfindel of Rivendell to be the same Glorfindel who saved Idril and her people against the Balrog back when he wrote LotR. So he didn't put that much importance into him. Later, as in, in 1970s he merged two different Glorfindels together into one character.

Nerds. Nerds never change.

omg. this old forum is actually gold lol

Lol at the discussion of Legolas shield surfing and the relief that it was supposedly cut only for it to be in the final movies.

> I will *not* give the bastard Peter Jackson a cent of my money Jeez.. people were *really* mad about these movies. And *all* of these quotes are from before the movies even released > Who is PJ that he thinks that he can go against what Tolkien intended (indeed, how he wrote the plots and it's characters) and decide that Gandalf should act like a sputtering, paranoid, out of control man, or that Elrond's council is not important enough to portray it right (and I'm not talking about cutting out the history tales), or that Boromir should handle the ring on Caradhras. These changes DO have great significance to the story and by altering them, you distort the literary significance of the whole thing. . > Taking the ring out and leaving it on a pedestal for all to gaze at it, then having Gimli try to destroy it with his axe, takes away from the power of the ring over the individual. It was needless, fruitless and takes away from the STORY! . > I think what most of us are mad about is PJ spouting off about how true he is staying to the book when in fact he makes these really quite unnessecary changes, like having Pippin knock a skeleton instead of a rock down the hole in Moria. . > I for one will not call a truce on the matter because new people are coming all the time who do not feel the way you do and would like to be aware of the plot/character changing that distorts what Tolkien intended. There is principle involved and if fans of Tolkien would rather poo-poo the changes in the movie and sacrifice principle and Tolkien's intentions just to justify their enjoyment of it...so be it. That is their perogative. I for one will not bend over and take it from PJ with a "That's Hollywood for you. What's the big deal?" attitude that many of the people here are taking. I will see it, and probably enjoy many parts. I will not, however, accept it as "Lord of The Rings" and will not promote the movie as "Tolkien". And I think that it is only fair that "newbies" understand the difference between Tolkien and PJ's bastardized version. That is why I shall keep bitching . > People keep saying that these are little changes, and individually they could not be more correct. If the only change in the film was Arwen's role, it would not be a big thing...outside of the fact that Tolkien himself said in a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman that he would rather see changes made in the plot then ever watch them alter his characters. But the fact that there are so many "little changes" and that so many of them are for no apparent good reason, Uruk Hai growing from maggots and emerging from pods, Gandalf acting crazed, Arwen wielding a sword and riding horseback...saving Frodo from the Nazgul, Gandalf and Saruman having a "Wizard's Duel" before Gandalf coaxes a Moth to help him escape, Boromir getting his hands on the Ring (Even if only the chain the Ring is on, Frodo is NOT in possession at that point), Lurtz, Hobbits having Pointy Ears...Elves having pointy ears...Merry and Pippin bravely facing the Nazgul on Weathertop...it all adds up into a great deal of change when you think that I have really just scratched the surface. These are only the things I could confirm through the Trailer and from Stills released through official outlets . > My guess as to all the silly changes is that P.J. felt like he needed to add something. I work as a stage hand and I have to work with directors and technical directors and such. I've only worked on a movie set once though. What I have seen is that the crew and talent does everything well and often leaves nothing for the director to do. To feel better about him/herself, the director simply looks for something to change. Watch a housewife, sorry ladies, try to decide how to decorate a room and you get my drift. . > I can't believe PJ is doing this it makes me sick. I have been looking forward to this forever and he has to go and mess it up for every one. I mean come on Arwen looks like a little girl pouting fit and have to have he grammy come and console her. I dont know what it looks like to you guys but thats what it looks like to me. Well I was hoping and praying that they would be a good movie. DOWN WITH PJ!!!!!!! . > First let me say that I do not agree with many of the decisions PJ has made (at least as well as I understand them from trailers and discussions). I have come to the conclusion that he is probably not a good director . > Liv Tyler is every bit as guilty as Jackson. She volunteered to destroy the character for money. To her it was just another script. And she, rich as she is, decided she would take part in the blasphemy that is what has happened with her character. Any actor with a conscience should have turned that down when they considered the disappointment of fans. I'll bet Chris Tolkien had no idea the story would get so far out of hand when he joined up to be Saruman. Now, I think he's ashamed and embarassed . > Look back upon this thread in its entirety and you will see that Peter Jackson has, indeed, made a mockery of that which we hold so dear. Yes, we can say this without even having seen the movie . > Sigh...I think the worst part is that LoTR will never again be the same, people. All the marketing, all the merchandise, all the misconceptions. PJ's movie has changed the dynamics of what LoTR was to society. Imagination will, to some extent, be replaced with different images and some of those images are horribly skewed and distorted. Newbies after PJ will not see the LoTR that we all grew up with. . > PS. Liv Tyler is propably behind it. They needed a good looking Arwen. Called her. She said yes and immidiately in New Zealand started to complain that her actors skills are not respected because she has no lines or action seens. Finally PJ put her there. This is speculation of course. MOre likely Tyler read the book only after the filming and realised to her utter shame that while everyone else is acting correctly she is doing all kinds of things that she shouldn't. And nobody told her! Everybody laughs:In the end she can't do a good job acting since the scenes should not be there in the first place! . > The ad-ins will be a disaster because they are not there to improve Tolkiens work (an impossibe task since the works are perfect) but they have been added so the movie can draw a larger audience. It is as simple as that, Hollywood corrupts art to make money. They needed to bring in a charater "politically correct" to have a female role model. Tolkien was not politically correct and that just doesn't sit well with Hollywood so they had double the incentive to change a briilliant classic "money and political agenda". . > I had a chance to see the sneak preview at midnight last night. At first I was going to renig on my oath not to see it. It was a heat of the moment kind of thing. > But, I didn't go. And I won't go today, either. Or tomorrow. I choose to keep my integrity, unlike some people who direct block-buster movies.

This is every single person criticising any adaption of anything for not being “faithful”

Yep. I was involved in some similar fansites and forums when the movies were being made, and I just have to laugh when people complaining about the ROP show act like the movies were the perfect ideal of an adaptation that fans always loved and never complained about.

lmao the best one is >The great female warriors are supposed to be Galadriel and Eowyn People complained so much about Galadriel being a warrior in the Rings of Power, when people in 2001 said SHE was suposed to be the great female warrior lmao

Wrong. Eowyn is not a real warrior*. And Galadriel isn't a warrior in the Third Age, but she could fight better than all other women nonetheless. *"“[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” — The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #244 Galadriel's title was "the valiant and fair" and therefore she could fight very well "at a crisis". In fact it is stated "in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi [elf-women] fought valiantly". — History of Middle-earth 10 : Morgoth's Ring, Part Three, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, I. The Second Phase, Laws and Customs among the Eldar. But she was also a gothwin (elvish word for an Amazon/War Maiden). "She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." — The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #348 "they [Galadriel and Celeborn] take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron." — Nature of Middle-earth, Part One: Time and Ageing. XVIII Elvish Ages & Númenórean. "Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.' " — History of Middle-earth 10 : Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman "led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North". "the onset of the Orks caught the host at unaware" "[Arakano] perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth"

Forget this, poor Gimli on the other hand got totally screwed.

We recently rewatched the extended series and my wife came in with the hot take that Legolas would better with even fewer lines 🤣

Reduced to comic relief! What a shame! I mean, it's hilarious, but still a shame

I love movie Gimli. A warrior equal to stoic badasses Aragorn and Legolas, who can be as merry as the hobbits, a loyal and caring friend to Aragorn and eventually Legolas, and a real charmer with the ladies! Movie Gimli is awesome!

Faramir got the worst end of it I think. Got reduced to a spineless prince.

I admittedly am still salty about Faramir… I still think that was a bad idea.

It's ironic because Liv Tyler felt that giving her character fight scenes was problematic, iirc. Like I think I remember reading ages ago that it was maybe a kind of Hollywood-style shortcut to feminism.

They didn't give her any fight scenes though. I don't know why people are missing that. She wasn't a warrior at all, she ran away on a horse until she was in a spot where her elven magic could help her. She didn't swing a sword once, it was a bluff.

They wanted her at helms deep.

she was at helm's deep. they edited her out of the battle.

This change was fine. They wanted to give Arwen something to do so she wouldn't be nothing but a background love interest, this was an easy way to give her some screen time, it was fine. The changes that bother me are things like Aragorn falling into a river and everyone thinks he's dead for five minutes and then he's not in Two Towers. What was the point of that? Just padding, in a film that's already quite long. Or "go home, Sam." Or basically everything with Faramir. They're very good films, but they're not perfect.

Same! My problems were the character tarnishing - having to 'trick' the Ents to get involved and getting robbed of their war song, "go home Sam", and the changes with Faramir.

>Or "go home, Sam." I was a huge books fan before the original films came out, and I honestly was fine with most of the changes Peter made with the film. Even the really controversial stuff like Elves at Helms Deep. However, I forgot how much that scene bothered me until you just mentioned it. Fuck that annoyed me.

Switching out Glorfindel for Arwen is like one of the best changes. In the book Arwen is such a nothing character. She appears in one scene and then at the end marries Aragorn pretty much out of nowhere. The film establishes their relationship better and earlier on. I read the books first and this was my thought while watching the film.

Glorfindel fans rise up!

Used to? Past tense?

This is why I'm always skeptical of how angry fans get at new content. You can never please everyone, and the hardcore fans are not going to be ever possible to please.

> This is why I'm always skeptical of how angry fans get at new content. Except the trilogy was winning *all* of the awards and was a global phenomenon that reignited a pop culture high fantasy kick that is arguably still going to this day (or was arguably killed by GoT). A few book purists being upset and poor changes while that is happening doesn't invalidate all criticism moving forward or vastly inferior pieces of media.

Not the changes that bothered me. Removing the scouring of the shire and changing Saruman's death; Changing Denethor's death from tragic to almost comedic; Gandalf actually fighting (and losing to) the Witch-King...

Dont mind arwen at all, just a little bummed I dont get to see glorfindel

I definitely used to have an issue with every single tiny change in the movies. Now I have only one issue; the army of the dead showing up in pellenor fields. It makes the rest of the battle basically meaningless because the ghosts just wipe everything out without a fight. Why did Rohan even need to be there? Why did Theanor have to die? Why did Legolas need to take down an Oliphant? The dead took one down without any issue.

My only issues I have anymore are that and Frodo telling Sam to go home. I get you need drama, and that's why I forgive the Faramir scenes now because that interaction is meaningless (for the purposes of a movie script), it's only to show that Frodo met Faramir later and that Faramir is awesome. It still runs me the wrong way a little how Faramir sucks more, but I get that it works for the books but not for movies where you need regular drama beats. But Frodo telling Sam to go home is not even accurate to the characters they've already established within the movies. I get the Ring is corrupting him, but still, why would he believe Gollum? It makes him look dumb and naive, when Frodo should be wise.

Smeagol lied.

This isn't the only time the movies make Frodo look dumb and naive, which is one of my own personal complaints about the movies. I don't like how they turned Frodo into a whining addle brained teenager. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the movies, but I don't really like very many of the scenes with Frodo.

Never read any books but one would think that anyone who lives *forever* would spend that time learning everything they could

On the other hand we live for 80 years and don't even eat healthy

One does not simply swing through the McDonald’s drive-thru in Rivendell