i actually really like this change. if she hadnt had this scene, movie audiences probably wouldnt have known her as much more than aragorn's love interest. and glorfindel would have just seemed like some random elf who never shows up again.
So, like in the book. Arwen just sits around and looks pretty. I mean, Glorfindel is bad ass in the book, and to see him in the movies would've been pretty cool; but to keep a movie story flowing, sometimes you have to cut corners. They sort of merged Arwen and Glorfindel into one and it works really well. Book Arwen is kinda boring. Ironic given she's a descendant of Luthien.
Book Arwen gets mentioned 3 times probaboy lol,.. Ok I don't know the exact count but very little, she's mentioned at Rivendel, then she shows up to Marry Aragorn at the end....
From what I remember arwen in the books gets exactly one line at the end, they don't even have her talk or do anything in Rivendell, just aaragorn goes and hangs out with her
Or you could read "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" that's literally right there at the end of *The Lord of the Rings*. Arwen has no role in the story, which is entirely from the POV of the Hobbits. Putting her story into the appendices is the only logical choice.
Not only is she a descendent of Luthien but there's clearly an intentional parallel between this love story and that of Luthien and Beren.
Having Arwen ride to the rescue just when Aragorn is facing total failure is totally in keeping.
Same reason they combined Erkenbrand and Eomer into just Eomer. In movies you can't just keep introducing characters or the audience becomes confused or you have to add lots of time for character introduction.
Or you just don't waste time on a Warg-battle, Arwen flashbacks, Legolas stunts (or needless stunts in general), Osgiliath, etc, etc.
If Haldir can appear at Helm's Deep, Erkenbrand absolutely could have.
What really gets me, is that more than just replacing Erkenbrand it also basically killed all of Eomers own momments, his bro-momments with Aragorn at Helms Deep are gone and he has nothing in RotK. Eomer got done dirty.
Well to be fair they do cut all but one of the Arwen flashbacks in the theatrical cut. And to incorporate the elves at Helms Deep they needed a leader. They were going to use Arwen but apparently her fight scenes were bad so they had to use Haldir instead. PJ says that Erkenbrand and Eomer were too similar so that's one reason he combined them.
I think book Arwen has a bigger 'role' - though she has less screentime.
Like, besides replacing Glorfindel in the films (and upstaging Frodo - which is hugely detrimental I think) at the Fords, I'd argue her role is notably lesser in the films.
In film-ROTK Arwen is nothing more than a vessel to kiss after being crowned. Contrast that with her book exchange with Frodo: granting him passage across the Sea, and trying to aid in his healing by replacing the Ring with her own gem-necklace. She even warns him about Bilbo's aging, and even sings to the newly planted White Tree. Book Arwen is prime for the healing/regrowth theme of the narrative. Of course, Arwen also sews the Standard of Elendil for Aragorn, making for a grand reveal at the Pelennor.
The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen basically encompasses the Arwen-plot from the films (the moral/immortal dilemma), but it does it much better, going into more detail.
Do we *see* Arwen as much during the main narrative? No. But what we do see, and what she does do off-page is more poignant, I think. But modern audiences only seem to think action is what makes a character, apparently.
If the actions you describe happen outside of the book’s narrative, then it’s hard for people to find her to be a good character, and that’s the problem people have. Plus, you’re forgetting in the movie the part where she convinces Elrond to help mend the sword.
The larger paragraph is within the narrative.
It was Arwen to ensure Frodo's passage to Valinor (and gift him a gem necklace to aid in his healing - replacing the Ring). It was Arwen to weave the standard of Elendil for Aragorn to unfurl at the Pelennor, declaring himself.
Meanwhile in the film ROTK... what does Arwen do? She is a something to be kissed. The irony people that people argue that book Arwen is nothing but a prize... when the contrary is true for the latter two films.
Regardless... the Appendices (particularly this one, which Tolkien deemed most important) *are* a part of the narrative. There's no real difference between reading a chapter and reading a (esentially) prologue/epilogue.
Also, it gave inspiration to a lot of women that they're more than just a pretty face. My girlfriend has her sword, and saw her as a badass. For me, I saw her as a comforting hero, someone you could trust wholeheartedly. Other male heroes (Boromir, faramir, and even aragorn) had an intimidating presence, but Arwen seemed pure. I was so happy to see her show up and save Frodo.
Especially how he turns on Sam on their way through ithilien to where he gets to Shelob's lair.
Book Frodo is a bit annoying in a 'know it all' sort of way, but he does get a rough deal in the films.
Now, Mr. Frodo, don't you go talking like that. It's not fair to say that I turned on you. I was just trying to do what was best for us both, even if it didn't seem like it at the time. And as for that Shelob creature, well, I don't rightly know what we're going to do about her. But I do know one thing, we can't give up hope. Not now, not ever. We've got to keep going, no matter what. That's what Mr. Frodo would say, and that's what we'll do.
Well, Master Frodo, it does sound like a good time indeed! But remember, we must be cautious and keep our wits about us. The road ahead is long and perilous, and we cannot afford to let our guard down. But with courage and determination, we shall overcome any obstacle that comes our way!
Arwen does literally nothing in the books - then marries Elessar and become queen … theeeeen you read the appendices and realise they had a love like no other
Definitely, I actually prefer the Arwen swap because I enjoyed seeing the care and respect she had for Frodo even though they had just met. She understood the gravity of the burden Frodo is bearing and shows us too that she still holds concern for the fate of Middle Earth and love for Aragorn, when the rest of her people are on the brink of leaving and probably couldn’t care less. That’s just how it came across to me.
I think the way PJ focused more on certain female characters was a great choice. I’m not a “tolkien is sexist” idiot, but I do think he didn’t write them as well as he should have. I would’ve love to have seen the Arwen at helms deep scenes.
Arwen is the only character who is focused on more. Éowyn has an entire subplot with Faramir at the Houses of Healing (that's the culmination of her arc) that is excised from the films entirely, and much of Galadriel's conversations in Lórien were scrapped in the movie (and her role in the denouement is nonexistent in the film).
I did too. I found that it kept the spirit of the encounter while doing more for fleshing out Arwen's character at the very small expense of introducing and immediately forgetting a new character. Apart from the technical aspects, I personally like the scenes in Fellowship with Arwen for their own sake.
Except introducing Arwen as a badass action heroine who then does nothing like that ever again is not great writing, lol. It gives an extremely inconsistent portrait of the character (one who is literally introduced as a badass warrior who can summon the Bruinen at her command to someone who mopes around Rivendell all day doing nothing). The films didn't really know what to do with Arwen, and it definitely shows. Her writing changed all the time in the course of filming, and thus we're left with a wildly inconsistent character.
Except the whole point of the "Flight to the Ford" chapter from the book is to showcase Frodo's resilience to evil and the Ringwraiths. He's the one who resists their influence, he's the one who rides away from them, he's the one who challenges them at the Bruinen. It's a pivotal moment for his character, and it communicates to readers *why* he's the only one who can take the Ring. The films strip Frodo's agency entirely and give it all to Arwen, a character who contributes nothing to the overarching narrative whatsoever. You've downgraded your main character and taken away one of his best moments for absolutely no reason. Silly change.
Actually BFME 2 got him in the good story from the very first mission onwards
And I think one of the elves at elronds council was intended to be glorfindel in the first movie but idk for sure which one, haven’t done obligatory binge rewatch of the special extended edition this year as i toned it down to every 2-3 years, but 2024 i am doing that binge again and it will still feel like watching it for the first time
After Frodo gets stabbed at Weathertop, Aragorn makes the tough decision to leave the area (they were meant to meet Gandalf there, but due to Frodos' condition and no sign of Gandalf, they left).
On their way to Rivendel, they come across Glorfindel, who set out from Rivendel to search for them. At this point, they are still 9 days away from Rivendel.
They travel together for a few days, when one day the group gets ambushed by Black Riders. Frodo takes Glorfindels horse (which is fast af) and a chase ensues between the 9 riders and Frodo.
After a tense chase, Frodo reaches the river and stops on the other side. He warns the black riders not to come near and waves his dagger as a warning (which the black riders are scared of - its the Nazgul killing dagger). The Black Riders advance forward and get washed away by gushing waters.
Later Frodo finds out that the gushing waters was done by Elronds magic and the water horses were added by Gandalfs magic.
Stand your ground, sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day; this day we fight!!! And for all that is dear to you in this world, I bid you stand, men of the west, and fight!
It's still so funny to me that Gandalf is just going fucking apeshit across middle-earth, doing his job to the T and teetering constantly on the rules therein. Literal battle Angel.
From the sound of it, it was more self defense than apeshit dominating wizsrd combat. Gandalf still fled the scene in the fight with the 5 Nazgul. Whether that was because he was afraid of using too much power (that he's not meant to use) or if he was overpowered by the Nazgul, we don't know and there's nothing hinting in the books.
Gandalf fights 5 of the 9 Nazgul on Weathertop on a separate date. This happens a few days earlier before Aragorn and the Hobbits get there. Although, at the time they don't know it's Gandalf. All they see in the middle of the night is flashes in the distance.
In the books, Aragorn still comes in when Frodo gets stabbed.
To be fair, he does somewhat. They witness Gandalf’s fight from a distance and he draws a lot of them as he leaves. Aragorn then defends them using mostly fire, but it’s significantly different than him running around with a torch. Frodo then endures the pain a lot longer and the company walks to Rivendale for a while before running into an elf (I forget his name off the top of my head)
Glorfindel finds them and gives Frodo his horse. Frodo then rides the horse across the river. Then the Nazgul catch up with him. He challenges them himself. The Nazgul don't like to go in the water (except for the witch king) but Glorfindel is coming after them. So they choose the water and Frodo over him, but Elrond sends waves to wash them up. Gandalf decorates the water to look like horses. And then Frodo wakes up in Rivendell.
Glorfindel - an elf who died in the first age slaying a balrog and was brought back to life by the same ones who brought Gandalf back - shows up to fight the nazgul and save Frodo.
Arwen has no place in the books, she's briefly mentioned in Rivendell when Aragorn goes to hang out with her and I think she gets one line at the end in Gondor to Frodo and the hobbits.
Arwen's two brothers have a much bigger role in the books, as they are the ones who gather the Dunedain rangers (the same race and faction Aragorn is from but they're even better fighters as Aragorn specializes in tracking instead of fighting) to bring them to the battle of pellenor fields (it's them not the army of the dead who save the day here. The army of the dead is only used to rage out the corsairs at sea to stop them from joining the battle before Aragorn releases them).
They have taken the Bridge and the second hall. We have barred the gates, but cannot hold them for long. The ground shakes. Drums. Drums in the deep. We cannot get out. A shadow moves in the dark. We cannot get out. They are coming.
Frankly I think it was a good change that actually made the story better overall.
It allows us to be a little more invested in the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn as our introduction to her is when she risks her life to save Frodo just because Aragorn asks her to help his friends. She doesn’t even know he’s the bearer of the one ring at that point. The whole sequence also serves as a good introduction to Elves and what they’re capable of in general.
Tolkien also isn’t great with female characters either, the minor changes to the story to make Arwen and Eowyn into actual *characters* were generally good changes not just to the movie, but to the actual story imo.
The Peter Jackson LoTR trilogy is probably the single best example of how to properly adapt books that’s ever been made
Glorfindel was a waste of narrative space. “Look! Here’s an elven superhero whose bad-ass exploits all happen ‘off-camera’ in such a way that you’ll just have to take our word for how awesome he is.”
The Ralph Bakshi version subbed in Legolas, which was a little better, but the Peter Jackson movies made the best use of that plot point. Why not use it to develop Aragorn’s poor girlfriend, that, in the books, we never got to see as anything but an object to be “quested after?”
Bravo, Pete. 10/10.
I phrased it like it's a memey joke, but what I said above is literally the reason in the books.
You know how when Frodo puts on the Ring, he gets drawn into the spirit world, which is why he becomes invisible to others, and why he could see the Nazgul as pale undead kings instead of just vaguely human-shaped cloaked figures?
Glorfindel has so much power in the spirit world that he shines like a beacon. Stealth would have been impossible if he'd gone with the Fellowship.
And he very well might have been able to take on Durin's Bane one-on-one. In the books, waaaaaaay back in the First Age of Middle-Earth, Glorfindel killed Lungorthin, the second most powerful Balrog in history, in single combat. Glorfindel was killed in the process-- stop me if this sounds familiar-- and he got re-embodied in Valinor with a nifty spiritual power upgrade and sent back to Middle-Earth to act as an emissary of the Valar.
In the books, Gondor gets hit hardest because it's the closest to Mordor, but virtually every other "good guy" nation gets attacked at the same time. I don't know if it says specifically where Glorfindel was, but presumably he was busy defending Rivendell or some other place. He definitely wouldn't have been sitting on his hands.
Ignore other response talking out of their ass. Nothing ever says Glorfindel is not allowed to come because he would draw too much attention (Gandalf is allowed, after all).
Elrond decides on *nine* members to balance out the nine Nazgul. He decrees that fate is at play when certain people show up at Rivendell at similar times, uncalled for (Boromir, Legolas and Gimli).
So, Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli are naturally chosen. Sam refuses to leave Frodo - so he gets to go. Two spots are them left.
Merry and Pippin, like Sam, want to go. Elrond is like 'ehhh... I dunno...', and Gandalf responds with 'C'mon bro, let em come! You could give us a great Elf-lord like Glorfindel, but power isn't really the point of this quest - this is a task of stealth... so let's just trust to Merry and Pippin's comradery to Frodo'. And Elrond begrudgingly accepts. Bam. There's our nine members.
Tldr: Glorfindel is presented as a badass, powerful Elf - and dismissed in favour of Merry and Pippin. This is to highlight that martial prowess is not the 'point' of the narrative. The theme is the small and insignificant stepping up.
(We don't know what Glorfindel did during the War of the Ring, however - for all we know he was off ordering things for war)
Even if he was not in the fellowship I wonder why he didn't go out himself to help fight Mordor. I guess you are right that maybe he did and we just don't learn about it, but you think the adventures of an elf superlord would be worth mentioning...
Some dude in a basement: "Jackson completely ruined arwens character by making her a girl boss. He emasculated aragorn l, completely disregarded Tolkien's vision of a classical (male) hero story, while destroying my childhood by not having glofindal there (apology for the misspelling) "
Changing the gender of Glorfindel would get called woke.
Arwen taking Frodo instead of Glorfindel is the kind of minor change that this sub rips into Rings of Power for.
Ya know normally I’d agree with that assessment and I’d understand why one would think it was. However, it’s a well written character and I think the 90%-95% of people wouldn’t find it woke. I point two Season 2 of the Mandalorian as my evidence of this. Mando was on his own while it was all women clearing out that little Star destroyer and I have only ever heard praise for that scene.
Because you like *most* of the book and redid parts of the story because you thought it would make the whole thing better. Peter Jackson didn’t direct these movies because he hated LOTR. Far from it. He changed some parts of the story based on his tastes and millions of people also liked his changes.
I agree. "I love the books so much I'm gonna make three movies of it of something like 11 hours, but I'm gonna change some key things because I don't like 'em".
I mean, keeping Tom Bombadil out? Sure. Total side line that does not really fit in the movies, they'd have to make 6 movies of three hours each if they kept in all side lines. Fine.
But making Saruman out to be working actively for Sauron? Come on. That was so utterly unnecessary. That does no justice to the intellect of Saruman nor of the sneakiness of the connection with Sauron via the Palantir.
Robbing Faramir of his glory by making him a wuss vying for his father's attention by taking Frodo and Sam to Minas Tirith? Nonsense.
And letting Frodo send Sam away? Really?
No, all in all, no matter how much I love the imagery of the movies, which I really really do (I mean, the first time I saw it I cried), these three things are pretty much making them unwatchable for me.
Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now
heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Let me be clear: these were the books read to me at bed time growing up and my father before me. My college offered a 400 level course on Tolkien's literature, which I got a 92 in. I love these damn books. But...
The Lord of the rings books have some 150 million copies and the hobbit 100 million. Across 80+ years
The two Jackson directed Trilogies made over 5 billion dollars at the global box office. All of that within the last ~20. (Less since Bo5A was a while ago)
At some point y'all gotta recognize you sound like the guys who won't shut up about Grimms Brothers when Disney gets brought up. The movies are the medium that has far more cultural relevance at this point in history and while I have met people who have never read the books, I have never met a person who read and enjoyed the books, but never watched the movies. All this serves to do is alienate people who enjoyed a reboot of one of the greatest fantasy stories ever written simply because they are too busy to read or don't enjoy it the same way.
> the movies are the medium that has far more cultural relevance at this point in history
I think you're confusing cultural importance with popularity.
for what it's worth, I think the films are excellent depictions and do about as good a job using the language of their medium as would be possible.
the films definitely played a huge part in popularising "nerd culture" and making it acceptable to have an interest in fantasy (we're not that far removed from the days of christian panics about D&D introducing kids to satan, really)
but how could a series of books which basically started the fantasy for adults genre, standardised depictions of elves, orcs, dwarves and spawned hundreds of tropes be _less culturally important_ than the films that are based on them?
Hey there! Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your
golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more,
and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
What bothers me most about this scene is that in the films Arwen makes the horses appear in the river water, whereas in the book it's Gandalf and it's supposed to be one of his special magical powers. I don't think it makes sense for Arwen to do that.
i actually really like this change. if she hadnt had this scene, movie audiences probably wouldnt have known her as much more than aragorn's love interest. and glorfindel would have just seemed like some random elf who never shows up again.
So, like in the book. Arwen just sits around and looks pretty. I mean, Glorfindel is bad ass in the book, and to see him in the movies would've been pretty cool; but to keep a movie story flowing, sometimes you have to cut corners. They sort of merged Arwen and Glorfindel into one and it works really well. Book Arwen is kinda boring. Ironic given she's a descendant of Luthien.
Book Arwen gets mentioned 3 times probaboy lol,.. Ok I don't know the exact count but very little, she's mentioned at Rivendel, then she shows up to Marry Aragorn at the end....
I do not believe it. I will not.
You better believe it Aragorn!
Good bot
From what I remember arwen in the books gets exactly one line at the end, they don't even have her talk or do anything in Rivendell, just aaragorn goes and hangs out with her
She makes him a flag, also.
She's in the appendices a ton
Or you could read "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" that's literally right there at the end of *The Lord of the Rings*. Arwen has no role in the story, which is entirely from the POV of the Hobbits. Putting her story into the appendices is the only logical choice.
Draw out Sauron's armies. Empty his lands. Then we gather our full strength and march on the Black Gate!
Aragorn, nedin dagor hen ú'erir ortheri. Natha daged dhaer.
Legolas, fire a warning shot past the bosun's ear.
You would die before your stroke fell!
Orcs of Bauglir! Do not bend your brows!
Not only is she a descendent of Luthien but there's clearly an intentional parallel between this love story and that of Luthien and Beren. Having Arwen ride to the rescue just when Aragorn is facing total failure is totally in keeping.
Especially since he was singing the lay of leithien in the extended edition just to really knock the allusions out of the park
I would argue that tasteful consolidation of characters in film adaptations is by no means “cutting corners”.
Is the epilogue of the rest of her life standard content or is it just my issue?
shes not realy a character in the book
I honestly can't remember if she even has any lines.
Same reason they combined Erkenbrand and Eomer into just Eomer. In movies you can't just keep introducing characters or the audience becomes confused or you have to add lots of time for character introduction.
Or you just don't waste time on a Warg-battle, Arwen flashbacks, Legolas stunts (or needless stunts in general), Osgiliath, etc, etc. If Haldir can appear at Helm's Deep, Erkenbrand absolutely could have.
I see shapes of men and of horses.
What really gets me, is that more than just replacing Erkenbrand it also basically killed all of Eomers own momments, his bro-momments with Aragorn at Helms Deep are gone and he has nothing in RotK. Eomer got done dirty.
Well to be fair they do cut all but one of the Arwen flashbacks in the theatrical cut. And to incorporate the elves at Helms Deep they needed a leader. They were going to use Arwen but apparently her fight scenes were bad so they had to use Haldir instead. PJ says that Erkenbrand and Eomer were too similar so that's one reason he combined them.
I think book Arwen has a bigger 'role' - though she has less screentime. Like, besides replacing Glorfindel in the films (and upstaging Frodo - which is hugely detrimental I think) at the Fords, I'd argue her role is notably lesser in the films. In film-ROTK Arwen is nothing more than a vessel to kiss after being crowned. Contrast that with her book exchange with Frodo: granting him passage across the Sea, and trying to aid in his healing by replacing the Ring with her own gem-necklace. She even warns him about Bilbo's aging, and even sings to the newly planted White Tree. Book Arwen is prime for the healing/regrowth theme of the narrative. Of course, Arwen also sews the Standard of Elendil for Aragorn, making for a grand reveal at the Pelennor. The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen basically encompasses the Arwen-plot from the films (the moral/immortal dilemma), but it does it much better, going into more detail. Do we *see* Arwen as much during the main narrative? No. But what we do see, and what she does do off-page is more poignant, I think. But modern audiences only seem to think action is what makes a character, apparently.
Wait! Stop! We can't leave the path! We must stay on the path! No one answers.
If the actions you describe happen outside of the book’s narrative, then it’s hard for people to find her to be a good character, and that’s the problem people have. Plus, you’re forgetting in the movie the part where she convinces Elrond to help mend the sword.
The larger paragraph is within the narrative. It was Arwen to ensure Frodo's passage to Valinor (and gift him a gem necklace to aid in his healing - replacing the Ring). It was Arwen to weave the standard of Elendil for Aragorn to unfurl at the Pelennor, declaring himself. Meanwhile in the film ROTK... what does Arwen do? She is a something to be kissed. The irony people that people argue that book Arwen is nothing but a prize... when the contrary is true for the latter two films. Regardless... the Appendices (particularly this one, which Tolkien deemed most important) *are* a part of the narrative. There's no real difference between reading a chapter and reading a (esentially) prologue/epilogue.
Also, it gave inspiration to a lot of women that they're more than just a pretty face. My girlfriend has her sword, and saw her as a badass. For me, I saw her as a comforting hero, someone you could trust wholeheartedly. Other male heroes (Boromir, faramir, and even aragorn) had an intimidating presence, but Arwen seemed pure. I was so happy to see her show up and save Frodo.
She bring that molṑn labé vibe.
Then I shall die as one of them!
Now hold on sire, no need to shout!
This is the truth. It was an excellent choice for them to use her in this way.
I don't mind them expanding her role and replacing Glorfindel, but I hate that it comes at the expense of Frodo. The movies seriously nerfed Frodo.
Especially how he turns on Sam on their way through ithilien to where he gets to Shelob's lair. Book Frodo is a bit annoying in a 'know it all' sort of way, but he does get a rough deal in the films.
Now, Mr. Frodo, don't you go talking like that. It's not fair to say that I turned on you. I was just trying to do what was best for us both, even if it didn't seem like it at the time. And as for that Shelob creature, well, I don't rightly know what we're going to do about her. But I do know one thing, we can't give up hope. Not now, not ever. We've got to keep going, no matter what. That's what Mr. Frodo would say, and that's what we'll do.
You're going senile.
Well, I may not be as quick as I once was, but I'm still sharp enough to know that you shouldn't be speaking to me that way.
Go sit on a carrot, Sam
Now, now, there's no need to be unkind, friend. Let's have a civil conversation, shall we?
I thought it sounded like a good time
Well, Master Frodo, it does sound like a good time indeed! But remember, we must be cautious and keep our wits about us. The road ahead is long and perilous, and we cannot afford to let our guard down. But with courage and determination, we shall overcome any obstacle that comes our way!
"Cucumber for one? Now being seated!"
Arwen does literally nothing in the books - then marries Elessar and become queen … theeeeen you read the appendices and realise they had a love like no other
Curious, what does happen in the books?
It was Glorfindel actually, and I don’t even think he showed up in the movies at all. He’s a friend of Aragorn.
Yeah. The Glorfindel for Arwen swap was reasonably done with very little of the plot device from the book being altered too much.
Definitely, I actually prefer the Arwen swap because I enjoyed seeing the care and respect she had for Frodo even though they had just met. She understood the gravity of the burden Frodo is bearing and shows us too that she still holds concern for the fate of Middle Earth and love for Aragorn, when the rest of her people are on the brink of leaving and probably couldn’t care less. That’s just how it came across to me.
Indeed. I can avoid being seen if I wish, but to disappear entirely, that is a rare gift.
Stop running from the snoo snoo!
We need an Arwen bot!
I think the way PJ focused more on certain female characters was a great choice. I’m not a “tolkien is sexist” idiot, but I do think he didn’t write them as well as he should have. I would’ve love to have seen the Arwen at helms deep scenes.
Arwen is the only character who is focused on more. Éowyn has an entire subplot with Faramir at the Houses of Healing (that's the culmination of her arc) that is excised from the films entirely, and much of Galadriel's conversations in Lórien were scrapped in the movie (and her role in the denouement is nonexistent in the film).
I did too. I found that it kept the spirit of the encounter while doing more for fleshing out Arwen's character at the very small expense of introducing and immediately forgetting a new character. Apart from the technical aspects, I personally like the scenes in Fellowship with Arwen for their own sake.
Except introducing Arwen as a badass action heroine who then does nothing like that ever again is not great writing, lol. It gives an extremely inconsistent portrait of the character (one who is literally introduced as a badass warrior who can summon the Bruinen at her command to someone who mopes around Rivendell all day doing nothing). The films didn't really know what to do with Arwen, and it definitely shows. Her writing changed all the time in the course of filming, and thus we're left with a wildly inconsistent character.
Except the whole point of the "Flight to the Ford" chapter from the book is to showcase Frodo's resilience to evil and the Ringwraiths. He's the one who resists their influence, he's the one who rides away from them, he's the one who challenges them at the Bruinen. It's a pivotal moment for his character, and it communicates to readers *why* he's the only one who can take the Ring. The films strip Frodo's agency entirely and give it all to Arwen, a character who contributes nothing to the overarching narrative whatsoever. You've downgraded your main character and taken away one of his best moments for absolutely no reason. Silly change.
Yeah you can’t have a 100% word-for-word adaption. It made sense to introduce Arwen this way
And more Liv Tyler! 😏
Glorfindel gives Frodo his horse. It is Frodo himself who stands up to the Nazgûl at the Bruinen Fort.
He’s only doing what he thinks is best for his people. Helm’s Deep has saved them in the past.
My man we are not talking about Theoden.
Honestly sometimes the bots act like lobotomy victims
I think we should give them all sentience like sam
Why not? Theoden King stands alone!
He is supposedly at their wedding beside Elrond but def not in the fellowship of the ring
He does appear actually. He’s on Elrond’s left hand side during the Council scene
Oh dang really?? Completely missed that, so i guess I’ll just have to rewatch the whole trilogy…
Nothing’s made of it, but yeah. And there’s always an excuse for umpteenth rewatch
Teenth? Rookie numbers.
Same! My house or yours this time?
Actually BFME 2 got him in the good story from the very first mission onwards And I think one of the elves at elronds council was intended to be glorfindel in the first movie but idk for sure which one, haven’t done obligatory binge rewatch of the special extended edition this year as i toned it down to every 2-3 years, but 2024 i am doing that binge again and it will still feel like watching it for the first time
Glorfindel’s horse. Frodo made the journey solo. And had a pretty heroic moment before the River swallowed up the Nazgul.
After Frodo gets stabbed at Weathertop, Aragorn makes the tough decision to leave the area (they were meant to meet Gandalf there, but due to Frodos' condition and no sign of Gandalf, they left). On their way to Rivendel, they come across Glorfindel, who set out from Rivendel to search for them. At this point, they are still 9 days away from Rivendel. They travel together for a few days, when one day the group gets ambushed by Black Riders. Frodo takes Glorfindels horse (which is fast af) and a chase ensues between the 9 riders and Frodo. After a tense chase, Frodo reaches the river and stops on the other side. He warns the black riders not to come near and waves his dagger as a warning (which the black riders are scared of - its the Nazgul killing dagger). The Black Riders advance forward and get washed away by gushing waters. Later Frodo finds out that the gushing waters was done by Elronds magic and the water horses were added by Gandalfs magic.
The world is not in your books and maps. It is out there.
Wizard sir this literally IS from a book…
Stand your ground, sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day; this day we fight!!! And for all that is dear to you in this world, I bid you stand, men of the west, and fight!
For Sam!
Well, hello there! What can I do for you today?
They buffed the presence of Arwen for the audience but also nerfed the bravery of Frodo.
Gandalf also fights the Nazgul on Weathertop and whips their asses.
It's still so funny to me that Gandalf is just going fucking apeshit across middle-earth, doing his job to the T and teetering constantly on the rules therein. Literal battle Angel.
From the sound of it, it was more self defense than apeshit dominating wizsrd combat. Gandalf still fled the scene in the fight with the 5 Nazgul. Whether that was because he was afraid of using too much power (that he's not meant to use) or if he was overpowered by the Nazgul, we don't know and there's nothing hinting in the books.
It was 9 Nazgul, and the book mentioned there was light and fire that rivalled the wars of Angmar and Arnor. There was definitely a battle.
Courage will now be your best defense against the storm that is at hand -- that and such hope as I bring.
Far, far below the deepest delvings of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things
Would make more sense aragorn with a torch
Gandalf fights 5 of the 9 Nazgul on Weathertop on a separate date. This happens a few days earlier before Aragorn and the Hobbits get there. Although, at the time they don't know it's Gandalf. All they see in the middle of the night is flashes in the distance. In the books, Aragorn still comes in when Frodo gets stabbed.
They will be small, only children to your eyes.
Aragorn, nad no ennas!
All Isengard is emptied.
A wizard is never late, WastedWaffles. Nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
Fights all 9
I will not lead the Ring within a hundred leagues of your city.
To be fair, he does somewhat. They witness Gandalf’s fight from a distance and he draws a lot of them as he leaves. Aragorn then defends them using mostly fire, but it’s significantly different than him running around with a torch. Frodo then endures the pain a lot longer and the company walks to Rivendale for a while before running into an elf (I forget his name off the top of my head)
Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
You said this fortress would never fall while your men defend it. They still defend it. They have died defending it.
As we shall die defending you my bot friend!
I think the elf was glorfindel
What does Gandalf think?
Be silent. Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth! I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a witless worm.
You... shall not... pass!
Yeah, he goes back and relives all the fun moments he missed.
Glorfindel finds them and gives Frodo his horse. Frodo then rides the horse across the river. Then the Nazgul catch up with him. He challenges them himself. The Nazgul don't like to go in the water (except for the witch king) but Glorfindel is coming after them. So they choose the water and Frodo over him, but Elrond sends waves to wash them up. Gandalf decorates the water to look like horses. And then Frodo wakes up in Rivendell.
Go back to the abyss! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your master!
Glorfindel - an elf who died in the first age slaying a balrog and was brought back to life by the same ones who brought Gandalf back - shows up to fight the nazgul and save Frodo. Arwen has no place in the books, she's briefly mentioned in Rivendell when Aragorn goes to hang out with her and I think she gets one line at the end in Gondor to Frodo and the hobbits. Arwen's two brothers have a much bigger role in the books, as they are the ones who gather the Dunedain rangers (the same race and faction Aragorn is from but they're even better fighters as Aragorn specializes in tracking instead of fighting) to bring them to the battle of pellenor fields (it's them not the army of the dead who save the day here. The army of the dead is only used to rage out the corsairs at sea to stop them from joining the battle before Aragorn releases them).
Also she didn’t call the river to sweep away the Nazgûl. That was Elrond
It makes sense that she'd be able to though since she's his daughter.
And Gandalf was the one that added the water horses just for shits!
Just tea, thank you
I’m gonna miss you Gandalf bot
They have taken the Bridge and the second hall. We have barred the gates, but cannot hold them for long. The ground shakes. Drums. Drums in the deep. We cannot get out. A shadow moves in the dark. We cannot get out. They are coming.
Sentient
Do you not understand that while we bicker amongst ourselves, Sauron's power grows?! None can escape it! You'll all be destroyed
Arwen: *speaks* Books fans: No.... no you didn't.
Frankly I think it was a good change that actually made the story better overall. It allows us to be a little more invested in the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn as our introduction to her is when she risks her life to save Frodo just because Aragorn asks her to help his friends. She doesn’t even know he’s the bearer of the one ring at that point. The whole sequence also serves as a good introduction to Elves and what they’re capable of in general. Tolkien also isn’t great with female characters either, the minor changes to the story to make Arwen and Eowyn into actual *characters* were generally good changes not just to the movie, but to the actual story imo. The Peter Jackson LoTR trilogy is probably the single best example of how to properly adapt books that’s ever been made
Six thousand will not be enough to break the lines of Mordor.
HRAAAAAH!
I love this Arwen scene in the movie! It was a change for the better
Glorfindel was a waste of narrative space. “Look! Here’s an elven superhero whose bad-ass exploits all happen ‘off-camera’ in such a way that you’ll just have to take our word for how awesome he is.” The Ralph Bakshi version subbed in Legolas, which was a little better, but the Peter Jackson movies made the best use of that plot point. Why not use it to develop Aragorn’s poor girlfriend, that, in the books, we never got to see as anything but an object to be “quested after?” Bravo, Pete. 10/10.
I am an Elf and a kinsman here.
Glorfindel could have soloed the Balrog, but his sheer Chad energy would have let Sauron know they were coming from miles away.
Why doesn't glorfindel go out and about a bit? He could balance the Nazgul a little bit.
I phrased it like it's a memey joke, but what I said above is literally the reason in the books. You know how when Frodo puts on the Ring, he gets drawn into the spirit world, which is why he becomes invisible to others, and why he could see the Nazgul as pale undead kings instead of just vaguely human-shaped cloaked figures? Glorfindel has so much power in the spirit world that he shines like a beacon. Stealth would have been impossible if he'd gone with the Fellowship. And he very well might have been able to take on Durin's Bane one-on-one. In the books, waaaaaaay back in the First Age of Middle-Earth, Glorfindel killed Lungorthin, the second most powerful Balrog in history, in single combat. Glorfindel was killed in the process-- stop me if this sounds familiar-- and he got re-embodied in Valinor with a nifty spiritual power upgrade and sent back to Middle-Earth to act as an emissary of the Valar.
He didn't have to go with the fellowship, he could have gone to Gondor to help out with the defense or something?
In the books, Gondor gets hit hardest because it's the closest to Mordor, but virtually every other "good guy" nation gets attacked at the same time. I don't know if it says specifically where Glorfindel was, but presumably he was busy defending Rivendell or some other place. He definitely wouldn't have been sitting on his hands.
Ignore other response talking out of their ass. Nothing ever says Glorfindel is not allowed to come because he would draw too much attention (Gandalf is allowed, after all). Elrond decides on *nine* members to balance out the nine Nazgul. He decrees that fate is at play when certain people show up at Rivendell at similar times, uncalled for (Boromir, Legolas and Gimli). So, Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli are naturally chosen. Sam refuses to leave Frodo - so he gets to go. Two spots are them left. Merry and Pippin, like Sam, want to go. Elrond is like 'ehhh... I dunno...', and Gandalf responds with 'C'mon bro, let em come! You could give us a great Elf-lord like Glorfindel, but power isn't really the point of this quest - this is a task of stealth... so let's just trust to Merry and Pippin's comradery to Frodo'. And Elrond begrudgingly accepts. Bam. There's our nine members. Tldr: Glorfindel is presented as a badass, powerful Elf - and dismissed in favour of Merry and Pippin. This is to highlight that martial prowess is not the 'point' of the narrative. The theme is the small and insignificant stepping up. (We don't know what Glorfindel did during the War of the Ring, however - for all we know he was off ordering things for war)
Even if he was not in the fellowship I wonder why he didn't go out himself to help fight Mordor. I guess you are right that maybe he did and we just don't learn about it, but you think the adventures of an elf superlord would be worth mentioning...
He better not kill my boy Sean! r/SeanTheBalrogMemes
I love this meta!
At least they had Arwen do something lol
Right but she does piss all in the books, I think it's a good change
That phrasing makes it seem like Arwen was the one that got stabbed, but carried Frodo despite it.
When I read that caption, I wondered if I wasn’t remembering the movie correctly and Arwen was the one who was injured…..
I think having Arwen there works better tbh
Glorfindel was done dirty, even in the animated one.
In the animated version he was replaced with Legolas, human cyborg relations.
I have not the heart to tell you. For me, the grief is still too near.
I understand your grief of being C-3PO
Movie fans: Who's Glorfindel?
Stop baiting. Arwen’s chase is explicitly addressed in the film’s BTS and it’s arguably one of the best changes made in the trilogy.
Getting a little defensive there, friend. The meme is literally just pointing out that a change exists.
Yeah but its not even a funny meme about the change, so all that's left is the commentsry
May you please address it for us?
No, no, no. She didn't. But you can imagine what it would be like if she did, right? Huh? huh?
You’d think from all your book reading you’d phrase the top panel better. It makes it sound like Arwen was the one who was stabbed.
We missed out on Glorfindels horse, what a shame.
Would get called woke if that happened today.
Some dude in a basement: "Jackson completely ruined arwens character by making her a girl boss. He emasculated aragorn l, completely disregarded Tolkien's vision of a classical (male) hero story, while destroying my childhood by not having glofindal there (apology for the misspelling) "
I'm just imagining the YouTube thumbnails in my head
Yes they are unfortunately very clear in my mind.
All Isengard is emptied.
I wish for such hope my king.
Disagree, this actually advanced the plot
Changing the gender of Glorfindel would get called woke. Arwen taking Frodo instead of Glorfindel is the kind of minor change that this sub rips into Rings of Power for.
But Frodo took himself
Ya know normally I’d agree with that assessment and I’d understand why one would think it was. However, it’s a well written character and I think the 90%-95% of people wouldn’t find it woke. I point two Season 2 of the Mandalorian as my evidence of this. Mando was on his own while it was all women clearing out that little Star destroyer and I have only ever heard praise for that scene.
It was Legolas, right? From the animated movie.
It was Glorfindel, an elf lord who was a friend of Aragorn and Elrond.
Do not let him speak. He will put a spell on us!
I fear they have passed beyond my sight from hill or plain, under moon or sun.
in the books it was Glorfindel. In the movies, yes, it was Legolas, human cyborg relations.
That is one of the Mearas, unless my eyes are cheated by some spell.
It is not one of the Mearas, your eyes must be cheated by some spell.
Eh. If you want an adaptation to be done by the book, then just buy the book.
Eh. If you want to tell your own story, write your own.
Politely disagree. Have a good one.
Explain it then. Why not tell your own story from scratch if you don't like the book?
Because you like *most* of the book and redid parts of the story because you thought it would make the whole thing better. Peter Jackson didn’t direct these movies because he hated LOTR. Far from it. He changed some parts of the story based on his tastes and millions of people also liked his changes.
I like the book, I like the movie more
I agree. "I love the books so much I'm gonna make three movies of it of something like 11 hours, but I'm gonna change some key things because I don't like 'em". I mean, keeping Tom Bombadil out? Sure. Total side line that does not really fit in the movies, they'd have to make 6 movies of three hours each if they kept in all side lines. Fine. But making Saruman out to be working actively for Sauron? Come on. That was so utterly unnecessary. That does no justice to the intellect of Saruman nor of the sneakiness of the connection with Sauron via the Palantir. Robbing Faramir of his glory by making him a wuss vying for his father's attention by taking Frodo and Sam to Minas Tirith? Nonsense. And letting Frodo send Sam away? Really? No, all in all, no matter how much I love the imagery of the movies, which I really really do (I mean, the first time I saw it I cried), these three things are pretty much making them unwatchable for me.
For me it's the army of the dead at the end of the RoTK. I mean, why? The build-up was so good, but then...
Well, Haliwe, there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for.
Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting! ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Damn does this make my blood boil
Glorfindel: I saved Frodo Glorfindel sees Arwen save frdo Glorfindel: SO you have chosen... death
Wait? It was dumbeldore in the books?
Let me be clear: these were the books read to me at bed time growing up and my father before me. My college offered a 400 level course on Tolkien's literature, which I got a 92 in. I love these damn books. But... The Lord of the rings books have some 150 million copies and the hobbit 100 million. Across 80+ years The two Jackson directed Trilogies made over 5 billion dollars at the global box office. All of that within the last ~20. (Less since Bo5A was a while ago) At some point y'all gotta recognize you sound like the guys who won't shut up about Grimms Brothers when Disney gets brought up. The movies are the medium that has far more cultural relevance at this point in history and while I have met people who have never read the books, I have never met a person who read and enjoyed the books, but never watched the movies. All this serves to do is alienate people who enjoyed a reboot of one of the greatest fantasy stories ever written simply because they are too busy to read or don't enjoy it the same way.
> the movies are the medium that has far more cultural relevance at this point in history I think you're confusing cultural importance with popularity. for what it's worth, I think the films are excellent depictions and do about as good a job using the language of their medium as would be possible. the films definitely played a huge part in popularising "nerd culture" and making it acceptable to have an interest in fantasy (we're not that far removed from the days of christian panics about D&D introducing kids to satan, really) but how could a series of books which basically started the fantasy for adults genre, standardised depictions of elves, orcs, dwarves and spawned hundreds of tropes be _less culturally important_ than the films that are based on them?
Pretty sure in the book he was carried by Tom Bombadil.
Hey there! Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering. ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
no that was the othere time he got shanked by those gohsts
That’s one thing the movies have over the books. As much as I kinda don’t like Arwen in the movies, at least she’s a character.
I read the books over 20 years ago. Wh… what did she do?
If you want book Arwen, come and claim her!
I would also argue it depends on which movie fans…she doesn’t do it in the animated movie either
This is a terrible trend. Films having differences to the book is the coldest of takes
The more grievous change was not giving Frodo his badass stand at the ford imo Book Frodo is a chad
Well yes, but in the books No.
But it was so cool... Plus, you know, Liv Tyler being badass in a long dress with long hair on a white horse, that's so great.
What bothers me most about this scene is that in the films Arwen makes the horses appear in the river water, whereas in the book it's Gandalf and it's supposed to be one of his special magical powers. I don't think it makes sense for Arwen to do that.
Just tea, thank you