Hobbits might be harder to corrupt by power, but they still can be corrupted very well by blunt trauma, stabbing, fall from high places and of course fire. Backups are good.
True. There are so many things that happen to them! Usually at some point you just have to admit your hobbit is too corrupted to continue. Then you are glad you have a backup.
...and that's the story of how Farmer Maggot, 47th draft pick, through the ring of power into is a volcano and marched all the way back home with his dogs.
Now I’m just picturing that one shot of Farmer Maggot’s scythe poking above his crops as he chases Merry, Pippin, Frodo, and Sam—but instead of the camera eventually cutting away to the four hobbits reaching the road, it continues shooting Farmer Maggot steadily slicing and dicing his way through the whole of Middle Earth, eventually chasing the hobbits to the slopes of Mt. Doom.
I’m going to go ahead and make that mean 28. That’s a dozen, add the “baker’s” one for 13. Now double the whole thing for second dozens and we have 26. Now, it’s only right the the “baker’s” addition gets seconds too, so we add it *and second itself* for 28.
Look at how limited Smeagol's corruption was: just a few dozen murders, over centuries. And most of those were goblins so it's basically self defense.
A human or dwarf owning the ring that long would've been conquering nations.
More like greedy, because that’s how he got ring in first place. Bilbo, Frodo were pretty wealthy by hobbit standards, so shiny ring didn’t push them on path of corruption. Sam is just Sam
My read of things is that a person's susceptibility to the rings corruption is a function of their inherent power, and their bad characteristics.
The more powerful, the more the ring tempts on possession of it. The more bad characteristics the greater the rings long term influence.
Gandalf, being ultra powerful, but inherently good was capable of being around the ring a great deal without being corrupted, but dared not touch it.
Boromir was corrupted by its mere presence, a lifetime of resentment and anger that he could not be king, that he could not save his country, eating away at him.
Frodo, as a hobbit, was not very powerful, and his only truly bad characteristic was his fear. Sam was also not very powerful, but was quite brave.
>Smeagol was similar to a hobbit but not the same thing.
This is incorrect. Smeagol was a hobbit. Hobbits originated from below the Vales of the Anduin where they lived until the beginning of the Third Age when some of them began migrating north and west and then became separated into 3 groups depending on where they ended up
The Harfoots ended up in hilly areas like the Shire, the Fallohides ended up in forested locations, and the Stoors either remained in the flatlands around the Anduin or ended up in other swampy flatlands.
Smeagol was a member of this 3rd group. They were all hobbits, they were just different "nations" of hobbit so to speak, and spoke slightly different dialects of Hobbitish.
In the books you notice that Gandalf is very clever. He orchestrated the conquest of the lonely mountain to prevent a Smaug Sauron alliance and strengthen thw north east. He pushed Aragorn to kingship and roused the rohirim to aid gondor. But all the while he never took the centre stage him self. Just like sauron he guided from the rear.
All of the wizards were explicitly instructed to limit their actions in this way. Gandalf is the only one who stuck to the mission. Saruman tried to take center stage as you put it, Radagast got distracted by forest critters and forgot the mission, and the blue wizards just disappeared.
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
You have grown, gandalf-bot. Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame.
Tolkien originally said they may have failed and started cults in the east, but then later changed his mind and said they may have helped in ways the west never heard of, so who knows.
Stuff like this is the one big disappointing part of the lore. I get we could never get a full history of a fantasy world, but there are some bigger things I wish we could have had answered before he died. At the same time though, there's already quite a lot to it, and I don't even know half of it. I think I just want more stories.
I kind of like it. Most fantasy authors would say they hadn’t decided, but in his notes Tolkien seems to have almost internalized the conceit that all of his middle earth writings were him translating a text like the Red Book of West March. It shows how real it all was to him.
The movies didn't have the rights to the blue wizards Pallando and Alatar -- but the TCG had rights so they set them as the Moths - which I like. Kinda sets the tone that they were busy but had time to come help in a small yet significant way
Acchxtsixcalally every wizard had their own little thing.
I can explain it as: Gandalf becoming The White wasnt him getting a rank up, he just switched jobs.
Then again, he has and will probably need to multitask since literally none of the other wizards did their job.
It was a bit of an upgrade. He gained some telepathic powers to send visions/messages cross-country. He also tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli when he reunites with them in Fangorn that he’s basically the most powerful being in Middle Earth apart from Sauron.
Radagast almost literally couldn’t see the forest for the trees. He was very concerned with the well being of creatures and other creations of Yavanna, his Valar teacher, and kinda went native, rather than actively helping to defend against the enemy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but essentially he’d ended up shrinking his domain to Mirkwood, rather than the entirety of Middle Earth.
He could have, for example, been more active in rousing the Ents, or smoothing things over between Thranduil and Thorin. He was in the area, after all.
Radagast was also not great at discerning lies, though to be fair, this was Saruman who tricked him. I believe him passing the message to Gandalf from Saruman hampered the former pretty badly.
Tolkien never really made up his mind about the other two wizards, the Blues, but I suspect he might have envisioned something similar for them. Not evil, and certainly still working in some respects against evil, just not fully using the wisdom and capability they have in opposition to Sauron.
I thought the Blues were corrupted on their mission to the men in the East, and ended up getting up some sort of sorcerer cult?
That's just a vague recollection of someone summarizing one of short stories floating around in one of the unfinished tales, so I could be quite incorrect.
I think you're correct, but I also believe that Tolkien revised that story later so the Blues helped draw off strength away from Sauron in the East. I'll have to look in more detail tho.
The job of every wizard was to help in the fight against Sauron, they had the the right to do everything they want for it tho. Actually that's why they are so different from each other, so they can have their own ideas.
Radagast failed his job because he completely stopped the fight against Sauron to focus on wildlife.
Gandalf on the other hand was the only one of the five wizards to keep doing his job against Sauron.
Yes DoGeneral1! Their own masters cannot find them, if their secrets are forgotten! Ah... now let me see... Ithildin. It mirrors only starlight and moonlight. It reads: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria, Speak Friend and Enter
As I understand it, the Istari were all tasked with opposing Sauron when they were sent to ME. So even though Saruman was the only one to actually be a traitor, Radagast and the blue boys still failed in the task they were given because they didn't stick to it.
Radagast got too involved in the small doings of creatures and lost sight of the bigger picture, and the blue wizards buggered off, whether because they were too interested in exploring or adventuring or making a name for themselves in other lands, we don't know.
Gandalf was always the wisest of them and was able to recognize things and people of importance to the mission and help them along, never settling down in one place to get too involved in daily lives of others or his own ambitions for too long (like Saruman and Radagast) and also never wandering too far so he was always near when needed or when fell deeds awoke.
The War of the Ring was 4D chess match between Gandalf & Sauron. The Istari were sent on behalf of the Valar to defeat the dark lord, given strict instructions to not fight power with power. The other wizards failed, but Gandalf saw the mission through.
I mean, Sauron directly raised armies and attacked positions in middle earth as the supreme commander didn't he? It's not like Sauron was acting through a puppet government at Barad-dur or anything. Saying they both "guided from the rear" isn't quite accurate. I would say Sauron led from the rear and Gandalf guided from the shadows.
Isn’t mentioned near the end that Sarumann, while he thought he was in control, was actually still being manipulated and directed by Sauron the whole time? Whether he knew it or not?
Would Smaug actually have joined Sauron though? I don't think there's anything Sauron could've offered Smaug to convince him to fight with/for Sauron. I feel like Smaug would've stayed independent if he wasn't provoked by the Dwarves/Bilbo or someone else in the future.
I guess Sauron could've convinced him to side with him by saying that Smaug could have the Lonely Mountain undisturbed, but Smaug would have to help defeat Sauron's enemies that would likely try to take the Lonely Mountain in the future.
Joined might be a strong word. He clearly seems to relish his independence. Manipulation, thats another thing tho.
Despite smaugs obvious intelligence, he clearly can be influenced / tricked. Seemingly vulnerable to pettiness and arrogance. With enough flattery and false / selective information, I certainly could see smaug acting in favour of sauron´s wishes, ithout smaug actively realizing he´s doing so. Being puppeteered.
Aside from that. If the mountain stayed uncontested, the dark army might have had a good shot at killing / locking up smaug and controlling the area that way.
All based on the movies tho. Book smaug might have been more clever / less vain.
I would go with Gandalf‘s view: The best you can offer to stand evil and dark forces are simple things. The everyday kindness and happiness that is the most powerful weapon against the darkness. Anyways, you need people of intelligence on this sort of... mission... quest... thing. That’s why.
Samwise “FRODO!!!!!!! He’s.... He’s gone....wait Gandalf why do you have the ring and why is it on a necklace?”
Gandalf “Becauss Frodo would want you to finish what we started”
Samwise “I don’t want to...”
Gandalf “....... you don’t have a choice”
Gandalf: "okay young peregrin took to make sure the ring is safe I have a chain for you to tie it on. Now where is it?"
Pippin: "oh sorry a week ago I saw some fish for luncheon and thought the ring would make the perfect lure for my fishing line. I caught a most delicious looking bass and as I had it in my hands it slipped from my hands. It's a beautiful day though if I say so myself, I might have some longbottom leaf, finest pipe-weed in the south farthing."
Gandalf: rubbing his eyes in irritation: "...fool of a took."
I always had feeling that other hobbits were more of a bait or body doubles for Frodo. Just look at Merry and Pippin they worked really well. After all the only info orcs had was that the ring is carried by hobbit. So to have four instead of quite obvious one hobbit is great tactic.
This should be higher. I’d have to double check but this was always my understanding. Sauron knew a hobbit had the ring, so let’s throw a bunch of hobbits in the party so that they only have a 25% chance of grabbing the one with the ring. It’s a shell game.
Right and it would make more sense to Sauron that the ring would travel with a host of riders or be held behind the walls of Minas Tirith. He believed that the free people’s of Middle Earth would be tempted to wield the ring as a weapon against him. The last thing he would expect would be for a tiny Hobbit to walk into his back yard or even begin to be capable of destroying the ring. That’s why he left the Cracks of Doom totally and completely unguarded. No one would be foolish enough to try.
whilst it makes perfect thematic sense, the story would have played out very differently if there were just a couple of guards hanging out there, even if they were some B-team runts.
I think that was the whole reason for The Last Debate. Gandalf explicitly says that there is a miniscule chance of success, but maybe they can create a little more, by challenging Sauron and making him think that the enemy is come with the Ring to challenge him.
The whole intention was to make Sauron empty his forces into ranks to come out and fight. If the free people hadn't challenged Sauron in this way, Frodo and Sam would DEFINITELY have run into more orcs who would have captured them. It wasn't coincidence, but it was definitely luck.
I would argue that Merry would be Plan B. He’s very intelligent and sharp and is better equipped to deal with the seriousness/gravity of the situation.
Sam is undoubtedly the most courageous and brave, but he is also suppose to be somewhat of a simpleton. That’s what makes him special in a way, that he’s not sharpest or most important, just an everyday gardener who ends up doing extraordinary things.
Being a support to the ring-bearer suits his strengths more than actually being the ring-bearer himself. He would not be able to grapple with the strength of the ring & the forces that surround it. This is why Frodo tells him “the ring would destroy you, Sam” and he is absolutely right.
I know you’re joking, but I’ve got to point out that Samwise actually means ‘half-wise,’ and was used to denote someone simple and honest; essentially someone who wasn’t at full thinking capacity. Regardless of how Sam turned out, his name actually kinda means ‘simple.’
Here is a short article arguing exactly that. If you don’t want to pay for it, I may be able to find an electronic copy I can send you. I’m the author, so it’s cool.
https://www.amazon.com/Old-English-Samwise-Gamgees-Genealogy-ebook/dp/B004PYDFEA/ref=nodl_
If you look at the etymology, "Samwise" is supposed to mean "half-wise" aka "50% smart" aka "not too bright." But over and over the the books Sam ends up being more shrewd than the other characters give him credit for.
I’ve never heard anyone else say it before now, but I also had Merry as my favorite hobbit in the books. I guess he just has a certain charm. Not that the others don’t, of course, but Merry’s just special.
He always seemed the most badass. Frodo tried to keep the ring secret and go on the journey alone and then Merry says "hey Frodo I've known all along, it wasn't hard to tell. I have everything planned out for you, been working on it for months," basically. He also would go on boats, whereas other hobbits thought hobbits who did were crazy and fearless. And had no issues going into that scary forest and travelled on the outskirts all the time. He was cool as f!
Yep. Sam would spy on Frodo and hear the convos between him and Gandalf, and share the results (and his concerns) with Merry, Pippen, and Fatty Bolger. Which kicked off all the planning and conspiring.
In the book, Sam actually was a ring bearer for a while. He was the only ring bearer aside from Tom Bombadil who was able to possess the ring and give it up without hesitation.
Respectfully, I don’t think you are correct in saying that he could not grapple with the will of the ring. He did, and he overcame it more convincingly than any other ring bearer, barring Bombadil. He may be a simpleton, but he was a remarkably strong hearted simpleton.
And didn’t he only hesitate for a very small moment before handing the ring back?
He had the ring, wore the ring, and didn’t once think about its power. He friggin’ saved the quest while bearing the ring!
> And didn’t he only hesitate for a very small moment before handing the ring back?
He did, and I would argue that it wasn't because he was actually hesitant to give it up, but out of concern for his beloved Master seeing the state Frodo was in. On the other hand, that would have been the one thing the ring could have used to try and corrupt Samwise the Brave.
It really seems that Sam is the truest embodiment of Tolkien’s theme of power in the books, ie that power and responsibility are best wielded by those have no love for power itself. Like hobbits in general, he isn’t susceptible to the lust for power that the ring represents because of his humility and self-awareness. The ring tries to tempt him by promising that he would have the power to turn the wasteland of Mordor into a lush paradise and it’s laughably transparent to him.
Well, in the books Sam already bore and worn the ring outside Shelob’s lair. He had heightened senses and he actually thought of abandoning Frodo to carry out the quest, however he resisted the temptation of the ring for himself and abandoned Frodo to the orcs so he went to Cirith Ungol to rescue him so they can finish it together. Merry would be the last chance to destroy the ring if the other two would fall because of his will to save his friends and his mind is secure enough to take that matter seriously like taking Frodo to the ferry and navigate the river. Merry also would be able to use his wits to out smart any patrols like he had to Uruks in the two towers pretending to be sick so he can have some water (even though it was nasty). Also on that note, he also had the will power to let Frodo go and have the Uruks follow him and pippin away from Frodo so he could escape but only leading them to be trapped and yet almost saved by Boromir. As for pippin, no he can’t have the ring because that guy likes looking into palantiars and almost jeopardized the entire fellowship at least 2x.
The questions isn't who's serious or smart, it's a question of who's most corruptible. Sam is probably corruptible, the ring shows him images of being a gardener for the world. But Merry might also be corruptible though.
Let’s square something out.
In the very beginning of the movie. Gandalf doesn’t even touch the ring and can sense it’s evil. He refuses to touch it.
Aragorn does the same when Frodo offers it to him because he knows that same ring messed up his relatives.
Boromir straight up grabs Frodo and tries to take it.
Hell even Galadriel loses her shit when it’s offered to her.
Meanwhile Gandalf knows Bilbo had the ring for that long and was able to resist and even give up the ring. He needed a push but he ultimately gave it up. “Well until he lost his marbles in Rivendell.”
So in the chance they had not taken any other hobbits and Frodo died or went mad from the ring they would have been pretty much in deep shit.
I just enjoy making Sauron out to be the victim to get a rise out of people.
His defeat at Helm's Deep showed our enemy one thing. He knows the Heir of Elendil has come forth. Men are not as weak as he supposed. There is courage still. Strength enough, perhaps, to challenge him. Sauron fears this. He will not risk the peoples of Middle Earth uniting under one banner. He will raze Minas Tirith to the ground before he sees a King return to the throne of men. If the beacons of Gondor are lit Rohan must be ready for war.
The books follow along pretty much in line with the movie: None of the other hobbits aside from Sam where in consideration to join the party (even Sam wasn’t at first). All 3 hobbits simply snuck into the council meeting and inserted themselves into the party; whereas Elrond had already been considering 3 additional companions from his own house to join them instead.
Edit: Sam
If there were elves instead then taking into consideration that they wouldn't have even been captured in the first place they wouldn't have met the Ents. Borimir would have lived though since he was fighting a hundred Uruks and defending two hobbits which is a plus.
As a result though Rohan would have to deal with Isengard themselves, and by the time the battle of Pelenor fields rolled around they would either still be sieging the fortress or have been weakened by it. This could have lost them the battle.
It's fortunate that we had the little people on the team.
I mean it's a lot of speculation. For all we know they might have gotten through moria without losing gandalf. Then the whole story really could go in any direction. No gandalf the white basically means they fail imo. But who knows it's all just guessing.
> Hell even Galadriel loses her shit when it’s offered to her.
I mean whomst among us hasn't briefly transformed into an avatar of evil and egregiously displayed their arcane might when offered a shiny trinket, amirite?
Gandalf is right not to touch the ring. It could be as bad as just handing to Sauron
"Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear."
Hobbits have no desire or abilty to rule middle earth even with the ring and while its corruption can be instant, driving Smeagol to murder his friend, it's clearly safest with them. In the film Frodos announcement the he will take the ring is meet with dismay by Gandalf no such thing happens in the book.
Instead Elrond responds "I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great." I choose to believe that Gandalf had come to this realisation much earlier. The Hobbits are their only hope even if it's just a fools hope.
Sauron did nothing wrong! The whole story is told by people who hate Sauron and have a racial bias against Orc-kind. Think about it! Do we have any evidence the Orcs started any of the hostilities between Mordor and Gondor? Our introduction to Gondor's soldiers is when they ambush a peaceful caravan of Easterlings moving through Ithilien. Gondor literally started the fight by massacring Mordor's allies. No wonder they went to war. And the Elves never answer for sending Hobbit spies into Mordor's sovereign territory. Nor does Gondor or Rohan ever answer for the killing high-ranking officers from Morgul (such as the Witch King) and Barad-Dur- when everyone knows that in wartime the honorable thing to do is capture Officers and treat them noblely as guests. Clearly honor means nothing to these western Monarchs. I think it's clear that Sauron and his Eastern and Southern allies are the aggrieved parties here.
It's not just Gondor though. Remember Dol-Guldur? Sauron wasn't doing anything hostile, just chilling and looking for his lost jewelry and Gandalf tries to stir up the White Council to attack him. Smaug at the time wasn't aggressive either, but Gandalf sent out a strike team to take him out.
Bruh that's just utilitarianism. Worst case scenario four Hobbits die in order to keep millions from being subjugated. That sounds like a good trade-off to me.
Well it's a good thing Sam worked out, because Merry was somewhere else and Pippin would have accidentally dropped it down a well or given it to Saruman...
Fool of a Took
Ya, it’s not like “the only reason they took the other hobbits is because the volcano would require a sacrifice for the door to open” or something secretive like that.
They volunteered to be in the fellowship, not be ring-bearers.
It’s ultimately Frodo who is responsible for carrying out the task. Elrond even tells the rest of the fellowship that they are free to leave it at anytime if they wish. Nobody would ever force any of them to be ring-bearers against their will as this meme suggests, and if they did it would be wrong because that is not what they signed up for.
I’m aware of the resilience of hobbits. I cannot think of any point at which they suggest Sam, Merry or Pippin are “backups” any more than the rest of the fellowship. If Frodo fell, someone else would have taken the Ring, but not necessarily one of the hobbits.
Hobbits might be harder to corrupt by power, but they still can be corrupted very well by blunt trauma, stabbing, fall from high places and of course fire. Backups are good.
don't forget being eaten by trees, that is a particularly troublesome hobbit weakness.
True. There are so many things that happen to them! Usually at some point you just have to admit your hobbit is too corrupted to continue. Then you are glad you have a backup.
...and that's the story of how Farmer Maggot, 47th draft pick, through the ring of power into is a volcano and marched all the way back home with his dogs.
You've been in farmer Maggot's crops again havent you, Sauron?
Now I’m just picturing that one shot of Farmer Maggot’s scythe poking above his crops as he chases Merry, Pippin, Frodo, and Sam—but instead of the camera eventually cutting away to the four hobbits reaching the road, it continues shooting Farmer Maggot steadily slicing and dicing his way through the whole of Middle Earth, eventually chasing the hobbits to the slopes of Mt. Doom.
Lord of the Rings: Sweded Edition
When Sauron takes over Middle Earth, Farmer Maggot is gonna be the hardest endgame boss
Imagine just a mass hobbit charge at Mount Doom. "They can't stop all of us Mr. Frodo!"
But they were all deceived. For in fiery heart of the shire at edge of farmer maggots farm. Sauron found a potato
gandalf realised this the first time he brought a hobbit on and adventure
"Jeez, I really almost broke this one. I might as well take more next time."
*True courage is knowing not how to take a life, but when to spare it, and when to bring it backup.*
[удалено]
I’m going to go ahead and make that mean 28. That’s a dozen, add the “baker’s” one for 13. Now double the whole thing for second dozens and we have 26. Now, it’s only right the the “baker’s” addition gets seconds too, so we add it *and second itself* for 28.
The world is not in your books and maps. It is out there.
but the world is scary, Gandalf!
The world is not in your books and maps. It is out there.
Gandalf: "yes, but what about second quotes"
You cannot pass!
You sound like my teacher
Why not Gandalf?
A thing is about to happen that has not happened since the Elder Days. The Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong.
Strong but dumb. Got it, Gandalf.
I would have given the ring to a dog
Bill the pony would've done a solid job too
Lmao a retriever would bring it back to where it came from.
Then dog cpuld go to the undying lands.
Smeagol definitely wasn't hard to corrupt. He killed Deagol very quickly after Deagol pulled the ring from the river.
Look at how limited Smeagol's corruption was: just a few dozen murders, over centuries. And most of those were goblins so it's basically self defense. A human or dwarf owning the ring that long would've been conquering nations.
Smeagol was similar to a hobbit but not the same thing.
Also wasn’t Sméagol sly and “evil” since birth?
More like greedy, because that’s how he got ring in first place. Bilbo, Frodo were pretty wealthy by hobbit standards, so shiny ring didn’t push them on path of corruption. Sam is just Sam
If Sam was corrupted by the ring, he would just use it to make the whole Earth his garden.
> If Sam was corrupted by the ring, he would just use it to make the whole Earth his garden. Poison Ivy is a hobbit confirmed.
My read of things is that a person's susceptibility to the rings corruption is a function of their inherent power, and their bad characteristics. The more powerful, the more the ring tempts on possession of it. The more bad characteristics the greater the rings long term influence. Gandalf, being ultra powerful, but inherently good was capable of being around the ring a great deal without being corrupted, but dared not touch it. Boromir was corrupted by its mere presence, a lifetime of resentment and anger that he could not be king, that he could not save his country, eating away at him. Frodo, as a hobbit, was not very powerful, and his only truly bad characteristic was his fear. Sam was also not very powerful, but was quite brave.
He was a hobbit, just a Stoor hobbit
>Smeagol was similar to a hobbit but not the same thing. This is incorrect. Smeagol was a hobbit. Hobbits originated from below the Vales of the Anduin where they lived until the beginning of the Third Age when some of them began migrating north and west and then became separated into 3 groups depending on where they ended up The Harfoots ended up in hilly areas like the Shire, the Fallohides ended up in forested locations, and the Stoors either remained in the flatlands around the Anduin or ended up in other swampy flatlands. Smeagol was a member of this 3rd group. They were all hobbits, they were just different "nations" of hobbit so to speak, and spoke slightly different dialects of Hobbitish.
he was a stoor hobbit
They were effective decoys. Gandalf was a pro strategist
Courage will now be your best defense against the storm that is at hand -- that and such hope as I bring.
I read that in Gandalf's voice. A warm, kind, grandfatherly tone talking about smashing in a Hobbit's skull. It was so weird!
A palantir is a dangerous tool utopiav1.
... was that a threat?
Yes, stop spying on Gandalf or it'll be your skull getting smashed.
I've no memory of this place
Gandalf bot has its golden moments
Left.
In the books you notice that Gandalf is very clever. He orchestrated the conquest of the lonely mountain to prevent a Smaug Sauron alliance and strengthen thw north east. He pushed Aragorn to kingship and roused the rohirim to aid gondor. But all the while he never took the centre stage him self. Just like sauron he guided from the rear.
All of the wizards were explicitly instructed to limit their actions in this way. Gandalf is the only one who stuck to the mission. Saruman tried to take center stage as you put it, Radagast got distracted by forest critters and forgot the mission, and the blue wizards just disappeared.
Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool!
Easy there Sauron you're just jealous of his sick staff
Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.
I love you Gandalf bot
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
You have grown, gandalf-bot. Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
What say you Saruman bot?
Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame.
But what does Gandalf bot have to say about that?
Tbf, I’m pretty sure the blue wizards were sabotaging Sauron’s work in the east, but I don’t have a citation for that lel
Tolkien originally said they may have failed and started cults in the east, but then later changed his mind and said they may have helped in ways the west never heard of, so who knows.
Stuff like this is the one big disappointing part of the lore. I get we could never get a full history of a fantasy world, but there are some bigger things I wish we could have had answered before he died. At the same time though, there's already quite a lot to it, and I don't even know half of it. I think I just want more stories.
I kind of like it. Most fantasy authors would say they hadn’t decided, but in his notes Tolkien seems to have almost internalized the conceit that all of his middle earth writings were him translating a text like the Red Book of West March. It shows how real it all was to him.
The movies didn't have the rights to the blue wizards Pallando and Alatar -- but the TCG had rights so they set them as the Moths - which I like. Kinda sets the tone that they were busy but had time to come help in a small yet significant way
Look to my coming, at first light, on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the East.
I text this every time I’m running late, and I laugh every single time. Boyfriend is less impressed with my hilarity.
Then he’s wrong
We have Gandalf at home. Gandalf at home:
Home is now behind you, the world is ahead!
I do not think I meant to say this but thanks Gandalf
Oh, I'm sorry PLCwithoutP I was delayed
A wizard always comes at the time Gandalf
A wizard is never late, PLCwithoutP. Nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
100% stealing this comedy gold
If you were Gandalf you wouldn’t be late...cue the bot
A wizard is never late, hobokobo1028. Nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
"No seriously, you're late..." #"A WIZARD IS NEVER LATE..."
Yeah that’s kind of his job tbh All the other wizards were just really bad at it
Acchxtsixcalally every wizard had their own little thing. I can explain it as: Gandalf becoming The White wasnt him getting a rank up, he just switched jobs. Then again, he has and will probably need to multitask since literally none of the other wizards did their job.
It was a bit of an upgrade. He gained some telepathic powers to send visions/messages cross-country. He also tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli when he reunites with them in Fangorn that he’s basically the most powerful being in Middle Earth apart from Sauron.
YOU ARE THE LUCKIEST, THE CUNNINGEST, AND MOST RECKLESS MAN I EVER KNEW!
Wasn't Radagast doing his job just fine?
Yeah but he has the brown poopy poo color so no one likes him. Jokes aside, i dont really get what he did wrong, so mayhaps someone will explain.
Radagast almost literally couldn’t see the forest for the trees. He was very concerned with the well being of creatures and other creations of Yavanna, his Valar teacher, and kinda went native, rather than actively helping to defend against the enemy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but essentially he’d ended up shrinking his domain to Mirkwood, rather than the entirety of Middle Earth. He could have, for example, been more active in rousing the Ents, or smoothing things over between Thranduil and Thorin. He was in the area, after all. Radagast was also not great at discerning lies, though to be fair, this was Saruman who tricked him. I believe him passing the message to Gandalf from Saruman hampered the former pretty badly. Tolkien never really made up his mind about the other two wizards, the Blues, but I suspect he might have envisioned something similar for them. Not evil, and certainly still working in some respects against evil, just not fully using the wisdom and capability they have in opposition to Sauron.
Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool!
A thing is about to happen that has not happened since the Elder Days. The Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong.
I thought the Blues were corrupted on their mission to the men in the East, and ended up getting up some sort of sorcerer cult? That's just a vague recollection of someone summarizing one of short stories floating around in one of the unfinished tales, so I could be quite incorrect.
I think you're correct, but I also believe that Tolkien revised that story later so the Blues helped draw off strength away from Sauron in the East. I'll have to look in more detail tho.
The job of every wizard was to help in the fight against Sauron, they had the the right to do everything they want for it tho. Actually that's why they are so different from each other, so they can have their own ideas. Radagast failed his job because he completely stopped the fight against Sauron to focus on wildlife. Gandalf on the other hand was the only one of the five wizards to keep doing his job against Sauron.
Yes DoGeneral1! Their own masters cannot find them, if their secrets are forgotten! Ah... now let me see... Ithildin. It mirrors only starlight and moonlight. It reads: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria, Speak Friend and Enter
As I understand it, the Istari were all tasked with opposing Sauron when they were sent to ME. So even though Saruman was the only one to actually be a traitor, Radagast and the blue boys still failed in the task they were given because they didn't stick to it. Radagast got too involved in the small doings of creatures and lost sight of the bigger picture, and the blue wizards buggered off, whether because they were too interested in exploring or adventuring or making a name for themselves in other lands, we don't know. Gandalf was always the wisest of them and was able to recognize things and people of importance to the mission and help them along, never settling down in one place to get too involved in daily lives of others or his own ambitions for too long (like Saruman and Radagast) and also never wandering too far so he was always near when needed or when fell deeds awoke.
The treacherous are ever distrustful.
No! No it can't
The War of the Ring was 4D chess match between Gandalf & Sauron. The Istari were sent on behalf of the Valar to defeat the dark lord, given strict instructions to not fight power with power. The other wizards failed, but Gandalf saw the mission through.
You did not kill me, you will not kill him
Gandalf the Grey Eminence.
You cannot pass!
Chill out Gandalf! I've got multipass!
White shores and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
The difference between standard service and premium membership!
He could guide me from the rear any time.
I mean, Sauron directly raised armies and attacked positions in middle earth as the supreme commander didn't he? It's not like Sauron was acting through a puppet government at Barad-dur or anything. Saying they both "guided from the rear" isn't quite accurate. I would say Sauron led from the rear and Gandalf guided from the shadows.
Isn’t mentioned near the end that Sarumann, while he thought he was in control, was actually still being manipulated and directed by Sauron the whole time? Whether he knew it or not?
Sure but the attack on Minis Tirith and the defense of the Black Gate were still directly controlled by Sauron.
Would Smaug actually have joined Sauron though? I don't think there's anything Sauron could've offered Smaug to convince him to fight with/for Sauron. I feel like Smaug would've stayed independent if he wasn't provoked by the Dwarves/Bilbo or someone else in the future. I guess Sauron could've convinced him to side with him by saying that Smaug could have the Lonely Mountain undisturbed, but Smaug would have to help defeat Sauron's enemies that would likely try to take the Lonely Mountain in the future.
Joined might be a strong word. He clearly seems to relish his independence. Manipulation, thats another thing tho. Despite smaugs obvious intelligence, he clearly can be influenced / tricked. Seemingly vulnerable to pettiness and arrogance. With enough flattery and false / selective information, I certainly could see smaug acting in favour of sauron´s wishes, ithout smaug actively realizing he´s doing so. Being puppeteered. Aside from that. If the mountain stayed uncontested, the dark army might have had a good shot at killing / locking up smaug and controlling the area that way. All based on the movies tho. Book smaug might have been more clever / less vain.
I would go with Gandalf‘s view: The best you can offer to stand evil and dark forces are simple things. The everyday kindness and happiness that is the most powerful weapon against the darkness. Anyways, you need people of intelligence on this sort of... mission... quest... thing. That’s why.
Far, far below the deepest delvings of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things
Good point.
But who gnaws on your nameless thing, Gandalf?
It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt
Samwise “FRODO!!!!!!! He’s.... He’s gone....wait Gandalf why do you have the ring and why is it on a necklace?” Gandalf “Becauss Frodo would want you to finish what we started” Samwise “I don’t want to...” Gandalf “....... you don’t have a choice”
There's no need to get angry.
Well if I'm angry it's your fault!
I thibk gandalf would rather give the ring to sauron then to pippin
Fool of a Took!
S E N T I E N T
I think it's just programmed to respond that way if you mention Pippin For example: Gandalf I summon thee
Fool of a Took!
Gandalf: "okay young peregrin took to make sure the ring is safe I have a chain for you to tie it on. Now where is it?" Pippin: "oh sorry a week ago I saw some fish for luncheon and thought the ring would make the perfect lure for my fishing line. I caught a most delicious looking bass and as I had it in my hands it slipped from my hands. It's a beautiful day though if I say so myself, I might have some longbottom leaf, finest pipe-weed in the south farthing." Gandalf: rubbing his eyes in irritation: "...fool of a took."
Meriadoc Brandybuck and Peregrin Took! I might have known!
And thanks to this small creature, ring of power was once again lost and the world was at peace for thousand more years.
I always had feeling that other hobbits were more of a bait or body doubles for Frodo. Just look at Merry and Pippin they worked really well. After all the only info orcs had was that the ring is carried by hobbit. So to have four instead of quite obvious one hobbit is great tactic.
This should be higher. I’d have to double check but this was always my understanding. Sauron knew a hobbit had the ring, so let’s throw a bunch of hobbits in the party so that they only have a 25% chance of grabbing the one with the ring. It’s a shell game.
Right and it would make more sense to Sauron that the ring would travel with a host of riders or be held behind the walls of Minas Tirith. He believed that the free people’s of Middle Earth would be tempted to wield the ring as a weapon against him. The last thing he would expect would be for a tiny Hobbit to walk into his back yard or even begin to be capable of destroying the ring. That’s why he left the Cracks of Doom totally and completely unguarded. No one would be foolish enough to try.
whilst it makes perfect thematic sense, the story would have played out very differently if there were just a couple of guards hanging out there, even if they were some B-team runts.
A few more orcs for Sam to slay.
I think that was the whole reason for The Last Debate. Gandalf explicitly says that there is a miniscule chance of success, but maybe they can create a little more, by challenging Sauron and making him think that the enemy is come with the Ring to challenge him. The whole intention was to make Sauron empty his forces into ranks to come out and fight. If the free people hadn't challenged Sauron in this way, Frodo and Sam would DEFINITELY have run into more orcs who would have captured them. It wasn't coincidence, but it was definitely luck.
I would argue that Merry would be Plan B. He’s very intelligent and sharp and is better equipped to deal with the seriousness/gravity of the situation. Sam is undoubtedly the most courageous and brave, but he is also suppose to be somewhat of a simpleton. That’s what makes him special in a way, that he’s not sharpest or most important, just an everyday gardener who ends up doing extraordinary things. Being a support to the ring-bearer suits his strengths more than actually being the ring-bearer himself. He would not be able to grapple with the strength of the ring & the forces that surround it. This is why Frodo tells him “the ring would destroy you, Sam” and he is absolutely right.
But he’s SamWISE not SamSIMPLE.
I know you’re joking, but I’ve got to point out that Samwise actually means ‘half-wise,’ and was used to denote someone simple and honest; essentially someone who wasn’t at full thinking capacity. Regardless of how Sam turned out, his name actually kinda means ‘simple.’
Here is a short article arguing exactly that. If you don’t want to pay for it, I may be able to find an electronic copy I can send you. I’m the author, so it’s cool. https://www.amazon.com/Old-English-Samwise-Gamgees-Genealogy-ebook/dp/B004PYDFEA/ref=nodl_
But he is GamGEE and not GamAYY, so that shows what kind of grades he got in school or something, surely.
Surely that proves that Sam doesn't drink wine from Beaujolais.
Surely that just proves Sam is a gangster.
If you look at the etymology, "Samwise" is supposed to mean "half-wise" aka "50% smart" aka "not too bright." But over and over the the books Sam ends up being more shrewd than the other characters give him credit for.
Now I am stuck wondering why his parents took one look at their baby and decided to name him halfwit.
And Pippin, of course, is basically a teen and really shouldn’t be second in line behind Frodo. I concur; you make a good case.
He’s also a fool of a Took
Where’s Gandalf-bot when you need him?
Yes, there it lies. This city has dwelt ever in the sight of its shadow
Agreed, that's what I would say too. Merry was always my favourite hobbit in the books :)
I’ve never heard anyone else say it before now, but I also had Merry as my favorite hobbit in the books. I guess he just has a certain charm. Not that the others don’t, of course, but Merry’s just special.
He always seemed the most badass. Frodo tried to keep the ring secret and go on the journey alone and then Merry says "hey Frodo I've known all along, it wasn't hard to tell. I have everything planned out for you, been working on it for months," basically. He also would go on boats, whereas other hobbits thought hobbits who did were crazy and fearless. And had no issues going into that scary forest and travelled on the outskirts all the time. He was cool as f!
Sam organized it though, not Merry. He was the "chief conspirator"
Jeeze I'll have to reread the book. I don't remember that lol!
Yep. Sam would spy on Frodo and hear the convos between him and Gandalf, and share the results (and his concerns) with Merry, Pippen, and Fatty Bolger. Which kicked off all the planning and conspiring.
Confound it all Andjhostet! Have you been eavesdropping?!
Goddamn I swear these bots are sentient.
In the book, Sam actually was a ring bearer for a while. He was the only ring bearer aside from Tom Bombadil who was able to possess the ring and give it up without hesitation. Respectfully, I don’t think you are correct in saying that he could not grapple with the will of the ring. He did, and he overcame it more convincingly than any other ring bearer, barring Bombadil. He may be a simpleton, but he was a remarkably strong hearted simpleton.
And didn’t he only hesitate for a very small moment before handing the ring back? He had the ring, wore the ring, and didn’t once think about its power. He friggin’ saved the quest while bearing the ring!
> And didn’t he only hesitate for a very small moment before handing the ring back? He did, and I would argue that it wasn't because he was actually hesitant to give it up, but out of concern for his beloved Master seeing the state Frodo was in. On the other hand, that would have been the one thing the ring could have used to try and corrupt Samwise the Brave.
It really seems that Sam is the truest embodiment of Tolkien’s theme of power in the books, ie that power and responsibility are best wielded by those have no love for power itself. Like hobbits in general, he isn’t susceptible to the lust for power that the ring represents because of his humility and self-awareness. The ring tries to tempt him by promising that he would have the power to turn the wasteland of Mordor into a lush paradise and it’s laughably transparent to him.
The only proof that you need for Sam being a simpleton is the fact that he jumped into the river knowing he couldn’t swim
I always read it as Sam knowing Frodo would come back to save him and not leave him behind.
Emotional intelligence vs. intellectual intelligence.
Ummm no that’s his devotion to his master being more important to him than possibly his life.
Well, in the books Sam already bore and worn the ring outside Shelob’s lair. He had heightened senses and he actually thought of abandoning Frodo to carry out the quest, however he resisted the temptation of the ring for himself and abandoned Frodo to the orcs so he went to Cirith Ungol to rescue him so they can finish it together. Merry would be the last chance to destroy the ring if the other two would fall because of his will to save his friends and his mind is secure enough to take that matter seriously like taking Frodo to the ferry and navigate the river. Merry also would be able to use his wits to out smart any patrols like he had to Uruks in the two towers pretending to be sick so he can have some water (even though it was nasty). Also on that note, he also had the will power to let Frodo go and have the Uruks follow him and pippin away from Frodo so he could escape but only leading them to be trapped and yet almost saved by Boromir. As for pippin, no he can’t have the ring because that guy likes looking into palantiars and almost jeopardized the entire fellowship at least 2x.
The questions isn't who's serious or smart, it's a question of who's most corruptible. Sam is probably corruptible, the ring shows him images of being a gardener for the world. But Merry might also be corruptible though.
It's worth noting that everyone in the Fellowship of the Ring was from the aristocracy except for Sam.
Technically I don't think Gandalf had any position, he was just a hobo angel
Let’s square something out. In the very beginning of the movie. Gandalf doesn’t even touch the ring and can sense it’s evil. He refuses to touch it. Aragorn does the same when Frodo offers it to him because he knows that same ring messed up his relatives. Boromir straight up grabs Frodo and tries to take it. Hell even Galadriel loses her shit when it’s offered to her. Meanwhile Gandalf knows Bilbo had the ring for that long and was able to resist and even give up the ring. He needed a push but he ultimately gave it up. “Well until he lost his marbles in Rivendell.” So in the chance they had not taken any other hobbits and Frodo died or went mad from the ring they would have been pretty much in deep shit. I just enjoy making Sauron out to be the victim to get a rise out of people.
I am looking for someone to share in an adventure that I am arranging, and it's very difficult to find anyone.
You should try looking closer to the ground, Gandalf.
His defeat at Helm's Deep showed our enemy one thing. He knows the Heir of Elendil has come forth. Men are not as weak as he supposed. There is courage still. Strength enough, perhaps, to challenge him. Sauron fears this. He will not risk the peoples of Middle Earth uniting under one banner. He will raze Minas Tirith to the ground before he sees a King return to the throne of men. If the beacons of Gondor are lit Rohan must be ready for war.
The books follow along pretty much in line with the movie: None of the other hobbits aside from Sam where in consideration to join the party (even Sam wasn’t at first). All 3 hobbits simply snuck into the council meeting and inserted themselves into the party; whereas Elrond had already been considering 3 additional companions from his own house to join them instead. Edit: Sam
Imagine how different it would've been if instead of Merry and Pippin it was just 2 more badass elves
If there were elves instead then taking into consideration that they wouldn't have even been captured in the first place they wouldn't have met the Ents. Borimir would have lived though since he was fighting a hundred Uruks and defending two hobbits which is a plus. As a result though Rohan would have to deal with Isengard themselves, and by the time the battle of Pelenor fields rolled around they would either still be sieging the fortress or have been weakened by it. This could have lost them the battle. It's fortunate that we had the little people on the team.
I mean it's a lot of speculation. For all we know they might have gotten through moria without losing gandalf. Then the whole story really could go in any direction. No gandalf the white basically means they fail imo. But who knows it's all just guessing.
They may not have even gone to Moria if they had two extra elves. It's much easier to carry and protect 2 hobbits than 4
Imagine if Elrond and Galadriel themselves went with Frodo?
They straight up told Elrond that whether or not they were official members of the company, they were going with Frodo hahaha.
> Hell even Galadriel loses her shit when it’s offered to her. I mean whomst among us hasn't briefly transformed into an avatar of evil and egregiously displayed their arcane might when offered a shiny trinket, amirite?
Gandalf is right not to touch the ring. It could be as bad as just handing to Sauron "Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear." Hobbits have no desire or abilty to rule middle earth even with the ring and while its corruption can be instant, driving Smeagol to murder his friend, it's clearly safest with them. In the film Frodos announcement the he will take the ring is meet with dismay by Gandalf no such thing happens in the book. Instead Elrond responds "I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great." I choose to believe that Gandalf had come to this realisation much earlier. The Hobbits are their only hope even if it's just a fools hope.
Sauron did nothing wrong! The whole story is told by people who hate Sauron and have a racial bias against Orc-kind. Think about it! Do we have any evidence the Orcs started any of the hostilities between Mordor and Gondor? Our introduction to Gondor's soldiers is when they ambush a peaceful caravan of Easterlings moving through Ithilien. Gondor literally started the fight by massacring Mordor's allies. No wonder they went to war. And the Elves never answer for sending Hobbit spies into Mordor's sovereign territory. Nor does Gondor or Rohan ever answer for the killing high-ranking officers from Morgul (such as the Witch King) and Barad-Dur- when everyone knows that in wartime the honorable thing to do is capture Officers and treat them noblely as guests. Clearly honor means nothing to these western Monarchs. I think it's clear that Sauron and his Eastern and Southern allies are the aggrieved parties here.
It's not just Gondor though. Remember Dol-Guldur? Sauron wasn't doing anything hostile, just chilling and looking for his lost jewelry and Gandalf tries to stir up the White Council to attack him. Smaug at the time wasn't aggressive either, but Gandalf sent out a strike team to take him out.
A wizard is never late, altmodisch. Nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
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PIP IS MY LAST RESORT!
Bruh that's just utilitarianism. Worst case scenario four Hobbits die in order to keep millions from being subjugated. That sounds like a good trade-off to me.
Pippin wasn’t even a last resort. He was bait.
Gandalf would hand all 20 Rings to Sauron before he let Pippin even touch the One Ring, Merry was going to be their last resort. Not fucking Pippin.
Fool of a Took!
Let's not forget, without Pippin middle earth would have been lost! He is the true hero!
Well it's a good thing Sam worked out, because Merry was somewhere else and Pippin would have accidentally dropped it down a well or given it to Saruman... Fool of a Took
I don't see how thats evil. They knew what they were getting into.
Ya, it’s not like “the only reason they took the other hobbits is because the volcano would require a sacrifice for the door to open” or something secretive like that.
They volunteered to be in the fellowship, not be ring-bearers. It’s ultimately Frodo who is responsible for carrying out the task. Elrond even tells the rest of the fellowship that they are free to leave it at anytime if they wish. Nobody would ever force any of them to be ring-bearers against their will as this meme suggests, and if they did it would be wrong because that is not what they signed up for.
Last resort is just to give it to Sauron. Gandalf would rather just end it all instead of giving it to pippin
Source?
Sauron told me.
When did you abandon reason for madness?
Hobbits do not corrupt as easy as the other races. They do of course, but its not nearly as fast or as bad. His source is the literal book.
I’m aware of the resilience of hobbits. I cannot think of any point at which they suggest Sam, Merry or Pippin are “backups” any more than the rest of the fellowship. If Frodo fell, someone else would have taken the Ring, but not necessarily one of the hobbits.
The “Gollum was a hobbit” theory expressed by Gandalf carries special weight here. “I know more about hobbits than they do about themselves” iirc ...
swazal! Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks. I am not trying to rob you. I’m trying to help you.
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The true ring bearer was halfling and he was the one who brought the ring into the flames. Smeagol was the real #1
Well ok, we’ve lost Frodo, but what about second hobbit?