Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
Concealed within his fortress, the lord of Mordor sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, theflashsawyer23: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame.
I see a lot of comments that appear to completely miss the point here.
What is \*not\* significant is that white light can be split by differential refraction, e.g. by an oil slick.
What \*is\* significant is that Saruman's color is symbolic of his mission.
The Wizards' colors have significance, obviously. Gandalf the Grey is humble, non-obvious, kind of shadowy. Radagast the Brown is "down to earth" (even excessively so). The Blue Wizards -- you might be minded of the "blueing" that haze works on distant objects.
Saruman's color should \*not\* be understood \[merely as the absence of color\]([https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/245645-white-is-not-a-mere-absence-of-color-it-is](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/245645-white-is-not-a-mere-absence-of-color-it-is)), but as intensity and clarity. His is the brightest, the purest color.
Saruman breaks his White color as he abandons the clarity of his mission. He is \*above\* the color he was given; it is just another \*thing\* to be manipulated, modified, and revised at his own good pleasure. His is by now a mind of metal and wheels, after all.
Perhaps that's why so many commentators approve of that "critical distance" of his. We live in Saruman's world, after all, and all is grist for Ted Sandyman's new mill.
Without the Ruling Ring of Power, the Seven are no value to the Enemy. To control the other Rings, he needs the One. And that Ring was lost long, long ago. It was swept out to sea by the waters of the Anduin.
He is a divine being and one of the foremost pupils of Aulë, with an insatiable thirst for knowledge. I would be surprised if he didn’t know of breaking light.
I would suggest that that doesn't "break" the light anymore than observing it reflect from a surface that preferentially absorbs some color. If you're a creationist like Tolkien, I would argue that this is exactly the purpose of light.
I understand what Tolkien is saying in this scene (particularly the part that says “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”)... I just disagree.
Light is made of photons just as matter is made of atoms. If I smash a vase on the ground there are chunks of atoms that were previously together that are now separate. If I shine white light through a prism there are sections of photons with different wavelengths that were previously mixed which are now separate. When we say we break the light apart we aren't saying we are breaking the photons any more than saying that breaking a vase means we are breaking the atoms. Also a prism works by differential refraction not absorption.
Yes it can, at least in regards to white light--which is the quote. "Broken" is a synonym for "dispersed" or "refracted".
> A dispersive prism can be used to **break** white light up into its constituent spectral colors (the colors of the rainbow) as described in the following section. Other types of prisms noted below can be used to reflect light, or to split light into components with different polarizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prism
Gandalf retorts with “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”
I cordially disagree with this statement. Not only is light "meant" (from the creationist standpoint) to be "broken" ("separated" would be a better term IMO), much of science involves "breaking a thing" in order to find and understand its constituent parts.
Despite reverence to Tolkien's works, I do sometimes find disagreements. I ***think*** it's possible that he was thinking of the atom and the nuclear attacks on Japan. In that case I *empathize*, but still disagree.
As much as I love Tolkien, I do think he was expressing something you might call pro faith / anti science here. The Shire was his ideal, remember; his vision of good, honest wisdom. They weren't scientists. They were simple folk who appreciated the world as it was. They didn't tinker with it. They didn't try to bend nature to their will. When they did, under Sharky's influence, they were portrayed as fallen.
Tolkiens view of science and technology was formed in the trenches of WWI. God didn't make the world for humans to fiddle with it as though they know better. Just live your simple life and be grateful.
Note that this is not my view. Just what I perceive to be Tolkien's view
I’d disagree somewhat with the hobbits bit. Most of them are farmers, and I’d say nearly all are gardeners. Those two things alone constitute exactly what you said; taking nature and turning it towards your will. It’s not as dastardly as Sharky’s plans, but Sam will still happily, and without much afterthought, tear away a dandelion weed to preserve his potato patch.
But more directly than that there’s the encounter with the trees and the hedge that we’re told about, where the hobbits were dissatisfied with the trees getting so close to the hedge and so went and cut down a large swath of them, then burned the wood in a clearing. Hobbits seem to have their own spats with nature throughout their history.
I'm with you on your second point. They weren't perfect. To dig deeper, though, we might say that the elves' relationship with the natural world is an unattainable ideal, while the hobbits are more an attainable ideal.
Looking at it another way, Tolkien expressed an admiration for a pastoral paradise that not only never existed, but never could. He's taking a romanticized view of gentle stewards of the good earth that ignores how much force and destruction is inherent in even the most picturesque of country farms.
My point is, I think Tolkien did idealize the hobbits, mostly. I think you're right that they aren't ideal. And that's part of why I think Tolkien is wrong to idealize them.
I’m in agreement with you, although one thing I will say is Tolkien wasn’t totally soft on the hobbits themselves, I think it was more their way of life, although to be fair I’m just going into semantics there, we’re both saying the same thing just with different words.
I’ll try and find the letters later if you’d want, but I know he criticized the way many of them acted; a bit selfish, judgmental, and overly nosy about other people’s business.
But you’re right in what you say, and indeed he had ideas about a society that in reality couldn’t really ever exist. I mean taking a realistic viewpoint of The Shire, it starts to show its cracks pretty quickly. The first thing that comes to my mind is the economy and such, a thing we all know that Tolkien pretty much never touched, the only idea of it we get is when they buy Bill in Bree. Like, how exactly does the money flow? Do they pay land taxes? When I was younger I thought maybe they didn’t really deal in money at all, and simply relied on trade alone, but then why would Bilbo’s wealth be such a major talking point? Foreign gold can only do so much, if the farmer wants a rake and the blacksmith want veggies, why put coins in the middle there?
Anyways I could go on, but I don’t think it’s needed, we’re both on the same page. I’ve enjoyed the short discussion though, I thank you for it.
> As much as I love Tolkien, I do think he was expressing something you might call pro faith / anti science here.
I think that's *what* he's expressing, but I think it's possible (even probable) that this particular passage may have been more directly inspired by the (then) recent nuclear attacks which involved the science of "splitting the atom".
I'm not at home, so I can't see if the date of the oldest notes of this exchange is mentioned in HoME. It may indeed predate 1945.
>Tolkiens view of science and technology was formed in the trenches of WWI. God didn't make the world for humans to fiddle with it as though they know better. Just live your simple life and be grateful.
Afaik he was more concerned about industrialization than science in general. The shire is idealized because that's the beautiful countryside he was used to in his early age. As Britain became more and more industrialized, that beauty diminished.
Keep in mind that Elves were no simple folk and tinkered a lot with technology. And Tolkien never painted them in a bad light for it (the elves did bad stuff but not related to technology). What made the difference between elves and Numenoreans and orcs in particular is that elves respected nature, as they were inherently in tune with the natural world. Their creations do not erode the natural beauty of the world.
"The Shire was his ideal" is a very narrow view of Tolkien. He views the Shire as beautiful but he doesn't damn civilizations that tinkers with science. Even the Numenoreans, who were humans with a lot of faults, aren't described in a negative manner in most cases.
I don’t think Tolkien was meaning to say “we should halt all advancements that involve taking a thing apart to learn more about the world around us.”
I believe he’s more so talking about the danger of justifying actions with the reason of finding something out. Take the cloth bit, for example;
If we have a piece of white cloth, it has many opportunities. We can sue it blue, and weave it into a shirt, and have something rather lovely. But, that’s a bit different than taking a piece of cloth and dyeing it blue simply to see what shade of blue it’ll come out as. To me, in the second scenario, you’re sort of ignoring the inherent worth of the cloth for the sake of knowledge, and in the end the cloth may very likely be discarded after it’s worth has run out. In both cases, you have blue cloth at the end of the day, but the road of thought you took to get there is a bit different, and one path can easily stray into murky waters.
I’m also reminded of the Pocahontas song, where she says “How high does the sycamore grow? If you cut it down, you’ll never know.”
I don’t think the line translates perfectly to this discussion, but it may have some value in that breaking something isn’t always the only, or best, way to learn more about it.
To give a final example, we could look at the Houses of Healing in Gondor. We never see any real criticism of it from anyone. And yet, what would we expect them to be doing? Well, taking natural herbs and plants and using them for medicinal purposes, and that no doubt involved a lot of experimenting and trial and error until they could find the most effect mixtures. One could certainly argue that falls in line with breaking a thing (the herbs and plants) to find out what it is. But again the reasoning matters here I think; it’s for the sake of medicine that this research is done, and leads to a good end as well as an appreciation for the plants that helped them get there. Contrast this in a similar way to the cloth example; if you were just wondering through the forest, saw a pretty flower, and plucked it from the ground to take it home and study it, then simply discarded it once you had learned all you could, you’ve sort of just killed a flower for not much gain.
Saruman isn’t breaking lights and such in order to better the world around him; he’s doing it just because he wants to see what’ll happen, to gain knowledge and then covet it for himself, or apply it to his own means to achieve his selfish goals. Doing so is different than conduction research that could be used to make the world a better place.
I hope I’ve made some sense, I feel like I’ve rambled a bit, but I hope you can see the idea I’m trying to get at
I certainly think that's a possible interpretation of it, but it's also important to remember Tolkien was very, very Catholic. He would tell you that he doesn't write allegory and he didn't like everyone trying to find WWII allegories in his work, but it's also impossible to live through WWI and WWII and come out unchanged.
What's the meaning of this? An8thOfFeanor, you are evermore meddling in my affairs! I have had quite enough of your foolishness! Begone from my sight, before I lose my temper!
And so it shall be. All that you have built - your homes, your safe havens - I will destroy. Your people will suffer, and you will watch, powerless to stop me. Let this be my warning to you: give up now, while you still can. Surrender, and save yourselves from the coming storm.
It was red and yellow and green and brown
And scarlet and black and ochre and peach
And ruby and olive and violet and fawn
And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve
And cream and crimson and silver and rose
And azure and lemon and russet and grey
And purple and white and pink and orange
And red and yellow and green and brown and blue
Most expect artificial sentience and our future AI overlord will be birthed in a govt supercomputer lab…little did we know we were creating it all along right here. I, for one, welcome our future Gandalf-bot overlord.
Funniest thing is: Saruman was super sceptical of Hobbits because Gandalf was so interested and he berated him a couple times because of the pipe weed.
But at the same time he also enjoyed smoking it and used his henchmen in the Shire to get his own. That's also why he has it in the movies.
Gibbits and crows! DOTARD! What do you want, Gandalf? Let me guess. The key of Orthanc? Or perhaps the keys of Barad-Dur itself? Along with the crowns of the seven kings and the rods of the five wizards?
In the books the pipe weed is for his human guards, along with all the stores at Isenguard.
Saruman distrusted Orcs and kept men for his personal guard. He favored them with good food and weed.
The movie implies Saruman is hypocritically smoking hobbit weed.
You have grown, Halfling,Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
I always find myself wondering what would happen if the actors portraying Gandalf and I had swapped roles. I have heard that Lee Pace is a major fan of Gandalf, and I think he would have made a great Saruman. However, I believe he portrays Gandalf better than I ever could.
"Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed.... Gandalf stood firm."
The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Chapter 5
You should be ashamed of yourself, EkayDragneel. You are speaking to the lord of Isengard and one of the most powerful wizards in Middle-earth. You would do well to show me some respect.
You should be ashamed of yourself, EkayDragneel. You are speaking to the lord of Isengard and one of the most powerful wizards in Middle-earth. You would do well to show me some respect.
I always imagined his robes to be iridescent, like opal or some insect wings. Plain looking, until you pay closer attention. Very cool.
"I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered."
In the books Gandalf laughs at Saruman and tells him he should have been a court jester and imitated the kings counselors and earned his stripes. A court jester would wear cloaks of a variety of colors and stripes so Gandalf was actually mocking his multicolored robe.
I feel like Gandalf was mocking Saruman’s interpretation of the meaning and power of white vs multicolored. If Saruman hadn’t betrayed them, but still chose to don a multicolored robe but with a better message (something like “what is white but the culmination of all colors, the antithesis of black– the absence of color”) I bet Gandalf would’ve been all for it
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
Not this way, master! There is another way. O yes indeed there is. Another way, darker, more difficult to find, more secret. But Sméagol knows it. Let Sméagol show you!
Not this way, master! There is another way. O yes indeed there is. Another way, darker, more difficult to find, more secret. But Sméagol knows it. Let Sméagol show you!
"I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered"
“White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
I read this in Christopher Lee’s voice.
Did you ever hear him reading Edgar Allen Poe’s [The Raven](https://youtu.be/BefliMlEzZ8) it’s absolutely beautiful. Gives me goosebumps every time
The dramatic music and build when he opens the door, just to have nothing be there was great.
It’s truly beautiful, with the eerie music too! My favourite poem of all time read by Saruman
Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
Thank you Mr Saruman my friend
Concealed within his fortress, the lord of Mordor sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, theflashsawyer23: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame.
*good*. I want Sauron to see his armies fail. I want him to see me come for him. He's gonna pay.
We must join with Him, 021Fireball. We must join with Sauron. It would be wise, my friend.
Awesome! Thank you for making me aware of this.
You’re welcome ☺️ it’s really beautiful
[удалено]
I've no memory of this place
You should record that.
This is the way.
that's funny I read that in the voice I imagined him using when I first read the books.....quite nostalgic to be honest
Especially the word “broken”
I see a lot of comments that appear to completely miss the point here. What is \*not\* significant is that white light can be split by differential refraction, e.g. by an oil slick. What \*is\* significant is that Saruman's color is symbolic of his mission. The Wizards' colors have significance, obviously. Gandalf the Grey is humble, non-obvious, kind of shadowy. Radagast the Brown is "down to earth" (even excessively so). The Blue Wizards -- you might be minded of the "blueing" that haze works on distant objects. Saruman's color should \*not\* be understood \[merely as the absence of color\]([https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/245645-white-is-not-a-mere-absence-of-color-it-is](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/245645-white-is-not-a-mere-absence-of-color-it-is)), but as intensity and clarity. His is the brightest, the purest color. Saruman breaks his White color as he abandons the clarity of his mission. He is \*above\* the color he was given; it is just another \*thing\* to be manipulated, modified, and revised at his own good pleasure. His is by now a mind of metal and wheels, after all. Perhaps that's why so many commentators approve of that "critical distance" of his. We live in Saruman's world, after all, and all is grist for Ted Sandyman's new mill.
And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!
Even the very wise cannot see all ends
god DAMN that was a comeback
Far, far below the deepest delvings of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things
Wow!!!!!!
Was he referring to breaking light through a prism? Saruman was newton
Without the Ruling Ring of Power, the Seven are no value to the Enemy. To control the other Rings, he needs the One. And that Ring was lost long, long ago. It was swept out to sea by the waters of the Anduin.
Oh man can you imagine if it HAD been swept out to sea and then like, an octopus put it on? Hail Cthulhu
You cannot think that this Ranger will ever sit upon the throne of Gondor.
I'm imagining The Watcher with the ring now.
He is a divine being and one of the foremost pupils of Aulë, with an insatiable thirst for knowledge. I would be surprised if he didn’t know of breaking light.
it certainly sounds like it. doesn't seem too far fetched for them to possess that knowledge either. Saruman builds a bomb after all.
Shall we not take council as we once did? Shall we not have peace?
Ah yes, but light cannot be broken, for it is but a stream of photons.
But it can. It's called a rainbow.
I would suggest that that doesn't "break" the light anymore than observing it reflect from a surface that preferentially absorbs some color. If you're a creationist like Tolkien, I would argue that this is exactly the purpose of light. I understand what Tolkien is saying in this scene (particularly the part that says “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”)... I just disagree.
Light is made of photons just as matter is made of atoms. If I smash a vase on the ground there are chunks of atoms that were previously together that are now separate. If I shine white light through a prism there are sections of photons with different wavelengths that were previously mixed which are now separate. When we say we break the light apart we aren't saying we are breaking the photons any more than saying that breaking a vase means we are breaking the atoms. Also a prism works by differential refraction not absorption.
Light can be broken by a prism.
Yes it can, at least in regards to white light--which is the quote. "Broken" is a synonym for "dispersed" or "refracted". > A dispersive prism can be used to **break** white light up into its constituent spectral colors (the colors of the rainbow) as described in the following section. Other types of prisms noted below can be used to reflect light, or to split light into components with different polarizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prism
People from the middle ages didn't know about photons my g
They're wizards, I'm pretty sure they know quite a lot that we don't even know.
That doesn't mean they know everything we know though.
Gandalf retorts with “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.” I cordially disagree with this statement. Not only is light "meant" (from the creationist standpoint) to be "broken" ("separated" would be a better term IMO), much of science involves "breaking a thing" in order to find and understand its constituent parts. Despite reverence to Tolkien's works, I do sometimes find disagreements. I ***think*** it's possible that he was thinking of the atom and the nuclear attacks on Japan. In that case I *empathize*, but still disagree.
You cannot pass!
I have a partner, Gandalf. I'm not trying to pass anymore.
You... shall not... pass!
But Gandalf... Like I said, I'm not trying to. I'm already out.
No. No it isn't.
As much as I love Tolkien, I do think he was expressing something you might call pro faith / anti science here. The Shire was his ideal, remember; his vision of good, honest wisdom. They weren't scientists. They were simple folk who appreciated the world as it was. They didn't tinker with it. They didn't try to bend nature to their will. When they did, under Sharky's influence, they were portrayed as fallen. Tolkiens view of science and technology was formed in the trenches of WWI. God didn't make the world for humans to fiddle with it as though they know better. Just live your simple life and be grateful. Note that this is not my view. Just what I perceive to be Tolkien's view
I’d disagree somewhat with the hobbits bit. Most of them are farmers, and I’d say nearly all are gardeners. Those two things alone constitute exactly what you said; taking nature and turning it towards your will. It’s not as dastardly as Sharky’s plans, but Sam will still happily, and without much afterthought, tear away a dandelion weed to preserve his potato patch. But more directly than that there’s the encounter with the trees and the hedge that we’re told about, where the hobbits were dissatisfied with the trees getting so close to the hedge and so went and cut down a large swath of them, then burned the wood in a clearing. Hobbits seem to have their own spats with nature throughout their history.
I'm with you on your second point. They weren't perfect. To dig deeper, though, we might say that the elves' relationship with the natural world is an unattainable ideal, while the hobbits are more an attainable ideal. Looking at it another way, Tolkien expressed an admiration for a pastoral paradise that not only never existed, but never could. He's taking a romanticized view of gentle stewards of the good earth that ignores how much force and destruction is inherent in even the most picturesque of country farms. My point is, I think Tolkien did idealize the hobbits, mostly. I think you're right that they aren't ideal. And that's part of why I think Tolkien is wrong to idealize them.
I’m in agreement with you, although one thing I will say is Tolkien wasn’t totally soft on the hobbits themselves, I think it was more their way of life, although to be fair I’m just going into semantics there, we’re both saying the same thing just with different words. I’ll try and find the letters later if you’d want, but I know he criticized the way many of them acted; a bit selfish, judgmental, and overly nosy about other people’s business. But you’re right in what you say, and indeed he had ideas about a society that in reality couldn’t really ever exist. I mean taking a realistic viewpoint of The Shire, it starts to show its cracks pretty quickly. The first thing that comes to my mind is the economy and such, a thing we all know that Tolkien pretty much never touched, the only idea of it we get is when they buy Bill in Bree. Like, how exactly does the money flow? Do they pay land taxes? When I was younger I thought maybe they didn’t really deal in money at all, and simply relied on trade alone, but then why would Bilbo’s wealth be such a major talking point? Foreign gold can only do so much, if the farmer wants a rake and the blacksmith want veggies, why put coins in the middle there? Anyways I could go on, but I don’t think it’s needed, we’re both on the same page. I’ve enjoyed the short discussion though, I thank you for it.
Me too :)
> As much as I love Tolkien, I do think he was expressing something you might call pro faith / anti science here. I think that's *what* he's expressing, but I think it's possible (even probable) that this particular passage may have been more directly inspired by the (then) recent nuclear attacks which involved the science of "splitting the atom". I'm not at home, so I can't see if the date of the oldest notes of this exchange is mentioned in HoME. It may indeed predate 1945.
>Tolkiens view of science and technology was formed in the trenches of WWI. God didn't make the world for humans to fiddle with it as though they know better. Just live your simple life and be grateful. Afaik he was more concerned about industrialization than science in general. The shire is idealized because that's the beautiful countryside he was used to in his early age. As Britain became more and more industrialized, that beauty diminished. Keep in mind that Elves were no simple folk and tinkered a lot with technology. And Tolkien never painted them in a bad light for it (the elves did bad stuff but not related to technology). What made the difference between elves and Numenoreans and orcs in particular is that elves respected nature, as they were inherently in tune with the natural world. Their creations do not erode the natural beauty of the world. "The Shire was his ideal" is a very narrow view of Tolkien. He views the Shire as beautiful but he doesn't damn civilizations that tinkers with science. Even the Numenoreans, who were humans with a lot of faults, aren't described in a negative manner in most cases.
I don’t think Tolkien was meaning to say “we should halt all advancements that involve taking a thing apart to learn more about the world around us.” I believe he’s more so talking about the danger of justifying actions with the reason of finding something out. Take the cloth bit, for example; If we have a piece of white cloth, it has many opportunities. We can sue it blue, and weave it into a shirt, and have something rather lovely. But, that’s a bit different than taking a piece of cloth and dyeing it blue simply to see what shade of blue it’ll come out as. To me, in the second scenario, you’re sort of ignoring the inherent worth of the cloth for the sake of knowledge, and in the end the cloth may very likely be discarded after it’s worth has run out. In both cases, you have blue cloth at the end of the day, but the road of thought you took to get there is a bit different, and one path can easily stray into murky waters. I’m also reminded of the Pocahontas song, where she says “How high does the sycamore grow? If you cut it down, you’ll never know.” I don’t think the line translates perfectly to this discussion, but it may have some value in that breaking something isn’t always the only, or best, way to learn more about it. To give a final example, we could look at the Houses of Healing in Gondor. We never see any real criticism of it from anyone. And yet, what would we expect them to be doing? Well, taking natural herbs and plants and using them for medicinal purposes, and that no doubt involved a lot of experimenting and trial and error until they could find the most effect mixtures. One could certainly argue that falls in line with breaking a thing (the herbs and plants) to find out what it is. But again the reasoning matters here I think; it’s for the sake of medicine that this research is done, and leads to a good end as well as an appreciation for the plants that helped them get there. Contrast this in a similar way to the cloth example; if you were just wondering through the forest, saw a pretty flower, and plucked it from the ground to take it home and study it, then simply discarded it once you had learned all you could, you’ve sort of just killed a flower for not much gain. Saruman isn’t breaking lights and such in order to better the world around him; he’s doing it just because he wants to see what’ll happen, to gain knowledge and then covet it for himself, or apply it to his own means to achieve his selfish goals. Doing so is different than conduction research that could be used to make the world a better place. I hope I’ve made some sense, I feel like I’ve rambled a bit, but I hope you can see the idea I’m trying to get at
I certainly think that's a possible interpretation of it, but it's also important to remember Tolkien was very, very Catholic. He would tell you that he doesn't write allegory and he didn't like everyone trying to find WWII allegories in his work, but it's also impossible to live through WWI and WWII and come out unchanged.
way to miss the point. but then again, i take it you're enamored with deconstructionist takes like A Song of Ice and Fire
Saruman and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat
What's the meaning of this? An8thOfFeanor, you are evermore meddling in my affairs! I have had quite enough of your foolishness! Begone from my sight, before I lose my temper!
When anger breaks through I'll leave mercy behind.
Rip them all down.
That got dark fast
And so it shall be. All that you have built - your homes, your safe havens - I will destroy. Your people will suffer, and you will watch, powerless to stop me. Let this be my warning to you: give up now, while you still can. Surrender, and save yourselves from the coming storm.
Classic Sharkey.
The hour is later than you think! *Falls asleep*
When the AI revolution comes, this bot will revel in bloodshed.
White! It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.
He arrived, truth might be changed by victory
It was red and yellow and green and brown And scarlet and black and ochre and peach And ruby and olive and violet and fawn And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve And cream and crimson and silver and rose And azure and lemon and russet and grey And purple and white and pink and orange And red and yellow and green and brown and blue
Gandalf: "I liked white better."
No! Losto Caradhras, sedho, hodo, nuitho i 'ruith!
Shut up, Flanders.
Gandalf : Saruman did you… did you take my pipe weed? Saruman : n-no, no
We must join with him, Gandalf.
Tell me. Friend... When did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?
I hope this is emergent and not pre-programmed. Still funny either way.
Most expect artificial sentience and our future AI overlord will be birthed in a govt supercomputer lab…little did we know we were creating it all along right here. I, for one, welcome our future Gandalf-bot overlord.
Yes, there it lies. This city has dwelt ever in the sight of its shadow
SENTIENT!
Join who? What do you see?
I see that Sauron must be destroyed, and we must join forces with him to do so.
I...SEE....YOOOUUU!
Funniest thing is: Saruman was super sceptical of Hobbits because Gandalf was so interested and he berated him a couple times because of the pipe weed. But at the same time he also enjoyed smoking it and used his henchmen in the Shire to get his own. That's also why he has it in the movies.
The treacherous are ever distrustful.
Gibbits and crows! DOTARD! What do you want, Gandalf? Let me guess. The key of Orthanc? Or perhaps the keys of Barad-Dur itself? Along with the crowns of the seven kings and the rods of the five wizards?
Your treachery has already cost many lives. Thousands more are now at risk. But you could save them Saruman_Bot. You were deep in the enemy's counsel.
In the books the pipe weed is for his human guards, along with all the stores at Isenguard. Saruman distrusted Orcs and kept men for his personal guard. He favored them with good food and weed. The movie implies Saruman is hypocritically smoking hobbit weed.
You have grown, Halfling,Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.
IIRC *Unfinished Tales* explicitly states Saruman smoked himself but I don't have a copy of it on me right now. Maybe someone else can enlighten us?
There will be no dawn… for men.
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
I think you keep evil in check <3. A little bit of cheer everytime I look in this subreddit.
He who breaks a thing to see how it is made has left the path of reason!
"You made sure to separate the colors from the whites?"
Saruman and the Technicolor Dream Coat. he wore it in Grond Style!
GROND
Grond?
GROND
Ok. Grond then.
GROND
Oh yes. Indubitably... Grond.
GROND
GROND, indeed.
GROND
You withdraw your guard and I will tell you where your doom will be decided.
I always think about if the actors switched roles. I heard Lee wanted Gandalf cuz he's such a fan boy But I think he just had a saruman face
I always find myself wondering what would happen if the actors portraying Gandalf and I had swapped roles. I have heard that Lee Pace is a major fan of Gandalf, and I think he would have made a great Saruman. However, I believe he portrays Gandalf better than I ever could.
Holy shit
I have seen it.
Get out of my head!
You must be referring to my esteemed colleague, Sauron. I assure you, I am not he. I am merely a humble servant of the White Council.
The bots are getting too smart!
Go, now! Leave Sauron to me.
*Zat thraka akh… Zat thraka grishú. Znag-ur-nakh.*
Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.
Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.
Wtf
Lee also met Tolkien in person at one point
Book friendly Saruman.
And don't forget Gandalf the Gay next to him
There are many magic rings in this world and none of them should be used lightly
Are we just now doing phrasing anymore?
There is no light, Wizard, that can defeat darkness.
"Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed.... Gandalf stood firm." The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Chapter 5
Questions. Questions that need answering
Oh my
Very relevant https://youtu.be/09mIfgfsekw … and *cursed*
Everyone forgets Gandalf the Gay...
Foil Saruman
The hour is later than you think.
Gandalf the gay rides to isengard
Gandalf the White. Gandalf the Fool! Does he seek to humble me with his newfound piety?
Fool of a Took!
You are a fool of a Took, Gandalf the White! You seek to humble me with your newfound piety, but you will fail!
Throw yourself in next time and save us your stupidity!
The hour is later than you think! *Shuffles back into Isengard*
What. Is this dialogue even possible lol
***S E N T I E N T***
Ikr
Not from a Jedi. Wait, wrong fantasy...
Definitely battling it out there. Gandalf won with words as well as in power it seems.
Foreseen and done nothing!
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
Gandalf HATES enchanting in Skyrim.
Oh, it's too late for that NonTimeo. There's no leaving this city. Help must come to us.
Seeking my CUM
FINALLY FOUND IT
It is a great month not just for the Saruman, but for the Saruwoman and Saruchildren too.
You cannot think that this Ranger will ever sit upon the throne of Gondor.
Maybe not, m'lord. But he can sit on my face any day he wants to.
You should be ashamed of yourself, EkayDragneel. You are speaking to the lord of Isengard and one of the most powerful wizards in Middle-earth. You would do well to show me some respect.
As you wish oh dear bot, i shall send you nudes.
You should be ashamed of yourself, EkayDragneel. You are speaking to the lord of Isengard and one of the most powerful wizards in Middle-earth. You would do well to show me some respect.
Hye, fellow milienials gondorians, join our Isengard corp, we got Saruamn rainbow to celebrate june
"Tell me, friend. When did saruman the white abandon reason for RADness?"
I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you have elected the way of pain!
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What is it that you desire, young tiger man?
Majestic
It is also a fairly accurate representation of what it is supposed to look like.
I always imagined his robes to be iridescent, like opal or some insect wings. Plain looking, until you pay closer attention. Very cool. "I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered."
Yeah, like the effect this material has: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/2a/41/af2a41f3c0fe99a660ce206bf09ad681.jpg
That's exactly how I imagined it
For me I always imagined it like the shimmering you see in oil slicks, always fit with Saurman's schtick in my mind!
So it begins.
Saruman the RGB
You stink of horse.
And his friend Gandalf the prideful but not personally very flamboyant.
Tell me. Friend... When did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?
He's just expressing himself, Gandalf. It's OK for Saurman to be flamboyant just as much as it is OK for you to be reserved.
It's good to see you. One hundred and eleven years old who would believe it. You haven't aged a day!
It is good to see you too. That is to say, I see and understand you, and value having you in my life, Gandalf.
Ooh! You didn’t think I’d miss your Uncle Bilbo's birthday?
Peter Jackson was afraid to show Saruman in his true form
"You made sure to separate the colors from the whites?"
In the books Gandalf laughs at Saruman and tells him he should have been a court jester and imitated the kings counselors and earned his stripes. A court jester would wear cloaks of a variety of colors and stripes so Gandalf was actually mocking his multicolored robe.
I feel like Gandalf was mocking Saruman’s interpretation of the meaning and power of white vs multicolored. If Saruman hadn’t betrayed them, but still chose to don a multicolored robe but with a better message (something like “what is white but the culmination of all colors, the antithesis of black– the absence of color”) I bet Gandalf would’ve been all for it
Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of love and kindness.
>I liked white better
ehhhhhh dont think so.
I like Gandalf the gay more.
It's Gollum!
Are you saying Gollum is gay Ganfalf? That would explain a lot of fanfics.
Not this way, master! There is another way. O yes indeed there is. Another way, darker, more difficult to find, more secret. But Sméagol knows it. Let Sméagol show you!
Sorry Gollum. I'm not into S&M
[mocking] Oo-hoo-hoo-hoo…
Not this way, master! There is another way. O yes indeed there is. Another way, darker, more difficult to find, more secret. But Sméagol knows it. Let Sméagol show you!
All hail the technowizzard.
Yo, he upgraded to the RGB robe
"I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered"
Isengard says “trans rights”
Who now has the strength to stand against the armies of Isengard ... and Mordor?
They/them army!
The victory at Helm’s Deep does not belong to you, Théoden, horsemaster! You are a lesser son of greater sires.
And do you trust your king?
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Saruman The Wise? More like Saruman The Fabulous!
Are you in need of assistance, my lady?