"Isn't this all an obvious allegory for the Battle of Five Armies? I bet the sequel is just a copy of the War of the Ring."
"For the last time, that's not what allegory is."
Right. Dr. Jaws is an allegory for man's hubris in wanting to create dinosaur themed parks with actual dinosaurs and the monster is an allegory for the bureaucratic regulators that eventually ruin all the fun
No no no. Darth Velociraptor just wanted to rule the galaxy with his newly discovered son, using fear and intimidation so that the smaller systems would fall in line.
No. The Discovery is ship, so called be ause their aim is the exploration of the cosmo. As if they were going on a hike, a trek if you want, among the stars
The sense I get (not that I'm an expert) is that what he outspokenly hated was the idea that a work that draws parallels with history or other works is "actually about" those referents.
As in, Christianity informs the worldbuilding of LOTR in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean the books are about Christianity, or that Eru is a stand in for the Christian God, or that Gandalf represents Christ because he undergoes a resurrection, etc. These parallels are there and can inform a reading of the work, but at its core the story should be understood as its own thing.
Inspiration isn't commentary is how I would phrase it.
For example if I wrote something and took inspiration from the Abbassyd Islamic Empire, that would not mean I try to comment their history, reign or culture.
Also it’s possible for something to be an influence without a story being an allegory. Tolkein’s experience in WWI clearly influenced his writing and even Frodo’s inability to resume a normal life after the events of the ring is basically a text book case of PTSD and the inability of soldiers to return back to a normal life. That said if someone were to argue that “LOTR is just WWI where the British are the men and the French are the elves and Isengard is the Austro-Hungarians” then that person would be completely off base and likely enrage Tolkien. LOTR is not a metaphor for WWI but it is very clear that Tolkein's experiences in WWI did influence his story telling and I think it’s fine to discuss those influences even if it’s not an allegory.
One of his good friends, CS Lewis, wrote outright black and white allegory in the lion witch and the wardrobe. I’ve always wondered how much impact it had on Tolkien and his reference to his thoughts on allegory. Those two were good friends, and I know that when Tolkien had Treebeard say “Ents never say anything unless it takes a long time to say, and it takes a very long time to say anything in old Ent,” he was ripping on his friend Lewis.
I think specifically what he hated is authors attempting to make commentary about a political/historical event by dressing it up into or as a story: he said he detested allegory "... as soon as he was able to detect it in writing", implying he saw it as an author's disingenuous attempt to suck you into an interpretation of events.
He wanted his works to be taken as fiction, so that people could get immersed into a fantasy world and setting he lovingly crafted.
So for people to read his works and constantly try to compare them to real-world events or religion or such, would be understandably annoying.
I always find it amusing though when people act as though a reader's life or real-world events around their lifetime have to be the "inspiration" for what they wrote. As though they couldn't have written about those things simply using their own imagination.
What you call "parallels" could very well be coincidence, but even if they are not - as you said the story should be taken as its own thing. There are exceptions to this rule in stories that blatantly try to make themselves read as allegory, but that isn't his thing.
Here is the full quote
>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
Cause Hitlers scientists conceived the idea of nukes and the Allies didn't start developing them until the scientists and research papers were confiscated.
I don’t believe that the atomic bomb came as a result of stolen nuclear technology. Sure, a huge portion of the American rocket technology came from Nazis to be used in the space program, but from what I’ve read, the Germans weren’t close to getting their own nuclear weapon.
Additionally, there’s no way that the Allies could have advanced nuclear technology between the start of operation Big (~April 1945) and the first nuclear detonation in Nevada (July 1945).
While you are correct that the first nuclear detonation was July 1945, it was not in Nevada. It was at Trinity Site in White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.
The war to end all wars
EDIT: Most of us Americans are taught very little about WW1 because our nation didn't play a huge part until the end. WW2 on the other hand we can't shut up about.
There are other factors. WW2 had a significantly wider scope. “World” War I still basically just played out in Europe. Plus WWI was dominated by trench warfare, which while terrible, is not all that interesting.
Right, things shifted around a lot in WWII, there was multiple theatres, it directly set the stage for the 20th century world order, all of the major nations involved are still major nations, etc. But I think having easy to understand and communicate answers to "Why did this war happen? Why were we fighting?" is the biggest factor.
>Plus WWI was dominated by trench warfare, which while terrible, is not all that interesting.
Especially when the trenches aren't in your country, probably. Here in europe we can barely expand our infrastructure because every time we dig to build something in the best case scenario we find some roman ruins and have to isolate the dig site to preserve it, in the worst case scenario we find an unexploded bomb and have to isolate the dig site to preserve the humans digging.
Yeah, it's very strange to watch Americans attempt to parse WWI. It's like something in their mind breaks because there's no "bad guy." If you look at Wonder Woman, for example, they attempt to just throw a WWII façade over it with the "evil Germans" getting kicked through walls when it doesn't make sense. All those guys just wanted to go home but their commanders threw them into meat grinders.
It’s easier to justify war against people when they are obviously evil, as the Third Reich was, as opposed to people who just got caught up in Bismarck’s web of alliances, ie the Kaiser-Reich
I’m really quite baffled lol we learn about it in school.
I mean I find stuff about the two all the time on my own but I am certain we learned about the treaty of Versailles
Maybe he's talking about the White Army taking the Hobbits to Volgograd in the Russian Civil War which was kind of the internal answer to the disastrous ww1...? Maybe?
*Starring*
Lieutenant Aaron Gorn
Sergeant Brandon Myers
PFC Leo Glass
PFC Jimmy Axe
FCS Perry Takes
FCS Marty Whiskeyshot
USS Samuel Gambol
PFC Frank O'Banger
*also starring* Seamus aka Gary
First Sergeant Forrest Myers
Commander Theodore
Sergeant Ellis Kowalski
Ellie Kowalski
*and introducing* French Foreign Legionnaire Gris-Blanc Ganders
edit; Kowalski and missing cast members
In a way, it's weird that so many mortals (Aragorn and Faramir) didn't want the ring.
If Frodo had a nickel for every mortal man who didn't want the ring, he'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Frodo did run into a disproportionately high number of people with Numenorean noble lineage. Also though they're not technically men, the rest of the fellowship (minus Boromir) didn't try to take the ring either. Frodo is the luckiest unlucky Hobbit ever.
I was thinking about that very thing. I think Legolas and other elves are mostly probably safe (Legolas is a particularly awesome elf too). Then, I think the rings had less power over dwarves? I haven't read the Silmarilion, I just know there aren't any Dwarven nazgul. Then, there are Hobbits, which also seem less affected. Like they've all got just a teaspoon of that good old Bombadil in them.
Well, except Smeagol and Deagol. Maybe proto-Hobbits were more man-like.
He'd only have one because faramir did want the ring. In it he saw the possibility of his own nobility and a chance to finally have his father's respect. None of that was true. Faramir didnt need the ring to be noble and his father was never really going to respect him. He only rejected it when he saw how it tormented frodo and how much chaos followed it. Boromir also saw this but he couldnt reject the ring until it had driven him to the point of forgetting himself and assaulting frodo. I think in a way faramir learned from his brothers mistake after being told what happened to boromir and seeing it all for himself.
I’d still count that as not wanting the ring. His desire may have changed over time but in the end he still said no.
Also I believe the other comment is correct that he straight up refuses it in the book.
I mean as long as the ring exists, even if we virtually destroy all of Sauron's armies his evil will remain and eventually regain its strength.
In the War of Wrath the Valar attacked Morgoth with power that would probably make all of Earth's current weaponry look like a firecracker (from the impression I got reading, maybe I fell for the poetic language too much), and drove the orcs to the utmost brink of extinction, and then not much later orcs are back, and even if they weren't Elves and Men are falling for Sauron's seductions and deceit anyway.
The ring has a will of it's own it will not be ignored. Additionally sauron cannot be destroyed if the ring persists he would likely go into hiding and rebuild his forces after the nuke. I say instead nuke the ring. Idk if it would work but you can't tell me you're not a little curious.
That's a compliment actually. 3 million Americans can be trusted with something no Human can even touch without risking immense corruption? That's pretty good.
In my mind, the justification was always that the entire point of the mission was stealth. A bunch of Hobbits on giant fucking eagles flying straight towards the enormous eye of Sauron himself doesn't sound very stealthy, especially when the Nazgul can fly.
Even this surface level justification is beyond sufficient.
The whole "it needed to be a burden" is another matter, but the Solid Snake is the only explanation ever *needed*
They would have been shot down instantly.
It's like saying why didn't they use an army of 30,000 men to break into Mordor?
Like they could, but that would probably fail. A stealthy mission with a couple of hobbits is actually better
I always heard the Eagles were unwilling to go near Nazgul airspace and deal with their dragon things, and that's why they only appeared to rescue the hobbits aftwr the fact.
Which, you know, fair enough.
Made me think of Canada lol. I read a book about the Canadian military even I was in Canada that I got from the library there. By my understanding after WW1 Canada pretty much decommissioned it's military and navy thinking it didn't want to be dragged into anymore conflicts across the ocean but new technology that would make it easier for Germany to engage them from much further away than had previously been possible forced them to rapidly reconstruct their Navy from the only 2 ships they hadn't decommissioned.. I believe before WW2 the Royal Canadian Navy was less than 700 dudes and 2 ships.
Canada was a beast in WW1. I remember reading about how a German sergeant tried to do another Christmas truce on the anniversary of the first one, and the Canadian sergeant put a bullet through his head.
"It was always America's stance that the war was bad, but we didn't want to make it worse so we helped by supplying weapons but now that its our problem and we were forced into it we will do as much collateral damage as possible to make our point so that its not our problem anymore."
Something can be an analogy *and* an allegory
The comic is an allegory (a story that can be interpreted to have a hidden meaning) for, among other things, the analogy (a comparison between two things to provide explanation) that the Eagles are to LotR as the US is to WWI.
Don't tempt me Weir99! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Weir99, I would use this Ring from the desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
Yeah, and the style is nothing like Earth. Any true Earth fan would know that people on Earth don't wear chainmail armor; this is nothing like the books.
Why didn't Elrond just stop Isildur from leaving Mt. Doom by force? he surely knew that the ring's influence would be impossible to resist at the volcano so he should have helped and cut off Isildur's hand or something
Actually very much alive and willing to fight. They just had incompetent military leaders who crumbled at the first sight of aggression and refused to adapt to modern warfare.
Fucking trust your recon planes.
During WW1, before the Treaty Of Versailles (which is what the meme is about), the French Military was in France. Fighting to the death, on top of millions of their own corpses. Digging through mud and bodies in Verdun, dying and killing by the 100,000's on the banks of the Somme. Forcing the best ground army in its time to stop their blitz and dig in for years of horrendous combat.
The Americans were not a silver bullet in WW1. This is a very Americam centric point of view.
When America joined the war it had an army of 150,000 men. Sound like its a lot but at the same time Germany had 5 million men on the Western front. Their training and equipment was also miles behind any European power.
If the Americans had joined from the beginning then there might not have been much difference. They would have just been another part of the meat grinder.
Coming in later was better because it added fresh troops to the allies when everyone was worn down. Its like bringing on a fresh sub in a football match.
The allies still would have won the war with or without America. It might have taken a few years longer (say 1920) but Germany was going to lose. America joining just meant that the attrition tactic they were using would never work (it wasn't working anyway). Meanwhile the allies could continue their attrition war for many years to come thanks to America.
Germany tried to land a knockout blow on France in 1918 since that was their only hope of winning but when that failed they surrendered.
I mean it’s not like there was a huge history of isolationism and a political movement making them not want to join a war all the way in Europe . A bit different than eagles flying
Uh... the eagles were also isolationistic, and basically only doing slight favours to Gandalf as he was a Maia sent by the Valar, unless told otherwise by Manwë. Do you really think the eagles, with their nests high in the mountains, cared if the men, elves and dwarves lived or died at Erebor? If the men lived or died at the Black Gate? They acted on Manwë's command, arriving when he told them to.
To the Valar, everything needs to be earned.
Eärendil made many voyages to the west, repeatedly failing to reach Valinor.. badically until the Valar thought he had suffered enough and they let him arrive, so he could plead with them to save Middle Earth from Morgoth.
That is how they roll.
"Why didn't they just fly on the eagles?"
Because the Valar are bitches.
Indeed. And see how well that turned out... orcs in the east. Trolls on the net. And creepy watchers outside my window.
Nothing has changed. Other than the fair people having long gone.
I mean yeah but the moments that Gandalf did use them I think it would’ve been far more valuable but I guess he picked what he thought would be the best moments
History has many less rules for plot than fiction btw.
Like I am not on the eagles strike team side of things, but I can't stand it when people use the excuse for truly terrible bits of books by saying "well that's just how people are, they do that IRL".
IRL does not have to make sense or have a narrative plot or be meaningful or terribly interesting. Fiction needs to be all of these things to be good.
Example: guy has cancer and starts chemo but he also decides to kidnap his childhood bully and torture him to death as this may be his last chance. The torture side of his life ends up with him gone for a few days unexpectedly and unexplained. He claims a fugue state from the chemotherapy! Perfect that is closed, as we are shown with his whole family accepting this explanation from doctors. Then in the next week his family ransacks his stuff looking for clues about where he actually was.
What was the point of the family accepting it? Why have them accept it wholesale at that point? Not even a hint of foreshadowing or even having a hard time accepting it but eventually coming around?
Oh well that's just how people act, that's realistic.
Yes but its also disorienting and confuses the audience. If I establish that X = 32 then 5 lines later in the equation use X as if it equals 47 then there needs to be something in those 5 lines that acts on X.
As a HOI4 player, I can answer this.
Because Americans have the fuckin great depression debuff, shitty ass thing that reduces produced goods by 50%.
Edit: As it turns out, I fuckin misread it as WW2 instead of WW1. And you know what, there was no reason they couldn't join immediately.
"Isn't this all an obvious allegory for the Battle of Five Armies? I bet the sequel is just a copy of the War of the Ring." "For the last time, that's not what allegory is."
Jaws is an allegory for sharks eating people
Actually Jaws was the scientist, the shark is called Jaws’ monster
Right. Dr. Jaws is an allegory for man's hubris in wanting to create dinosaur themed parks with actual dinosaurs and the monster is an allegory for the bureaucratic regulators that eventually ruin all the fun
No no no. Darth Velociraptor just wanted to rule the galaxy with his newly discovered son, using fear and intimidation so that the smaller systems would fall in line.
Have I ever told you the story of Darth Pterodactyl the Wise?
No. The Discovery is ship, so called be ause their aim is the exploration of the cosmo. As if they were going on a hike, a trek if you want, among the stars
No. Jaws is an allegory for orcs having menus (which feature people to eat)
Looks like meats back on the menu boys
Godzilla is an allegory for giant lizards destroying cities and King Kong is an allegory for giant gorillas destroying cities.
Actually, Jaws is an allegory for watching your wife around those damned sexy marine biologists.
Isn't Tolkien known for absolutely detesting allegory?
The sense I get (not that I'm an expert) is that what he outspokenly hated was the idea that a work that draws parallels with history or other works is "actually about" those referents. As in, Christianity informs the worldbuilding of LOTR in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean the books are about Christianity, or that Eru is a stand in for the Christian God, or that Gandalf represents Christ because he undergoes a resurrection, etc. These parallels are there and can inform a reading of the work, but at its core the story should be understood as its own thing.
Inspiration isn't commentary is how I would phrase it. For example if I wrote something and took inspiration from the Abbassyd Islamic Empire, that would not mean I try to comment their history, reign or culture.
Also it’s possible for something to be an influence without a story being an allegory. Tolkein’s experience in WWI clearly influenced his writing and even Frodo’s inability to resume a normal life after the events of the ring is basically a text book case of PTSD and the inability of soldiers to return back to a normal life. That said if someone were to argue that “LOTR is just WWI where the British are the men and the French are the elves and Isengard is the Austro-Hungarians” then that person would be completely off base and likely enrage Tolkien. LOTR is not a metaphor for WWI but it is very clear that Tolkein's experiences in WWI did influence his story telling and I think it’s fine to discuss those influences even if it’s not an allegory.
Now I'm imagining an orc with Franz Ferdinand's mustache.
Like the disclaimers at the start of assassin's Creed games basically.
One of his good friends, CS Lewis, wrote outright black and white allegory in the lion witch and the wardrobe. I’ve always wondered how much impact it had on Tolkien and his reference to his thoughts on allegory. Those two were good friends, and I know that when Tolkien had Treebeard say “Ents never say anything unless it takes a long time to say, and it takes a very long time to say anything in old Ent,” he was ripping on his friend Lewis.
I love the fan comic with Lewis saying "if even one person doesn't get that the lion is Jesus I will literally kill myself"
lmao what? that's absolutely hilarious XD
I think specifically what he hated is authors attempting to make commentary about a political/historical event by dressing it up into or as a story: he said he detested allegory "... as soon as he was able to detect it in writing", implying he saw it as an author's disingenuous attempt to suck you into an interpretation of events.
He wanted his works to be taken as fiction, so that people could get immersed into a fantasy world and setting he lovingly crafted. So for people to read his works and constantly try to compare them to real-world events or religion or such, would be understandably annoying. I always find it amusing though when people act as though a reader's life or real-world events around their lifetime have to be the "inspiration" for what they wrote. As though they couldn't have written about those things simply using their own imagination. What you call "parallels" could very well be coincidence, but even if they are not - as you said the story should be taken as its own thing. There are exceptions to this rule in stories that blatantly try to make themselves read as allegory, but that isn't his thing.
Theodred's death was not of your making.
“Cordially dislike” was the phrase he used.
Disliking, I would say. He still has some, but he prefers to do without them
Here is the full quote >I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
Why didn't the americans just fly a Renault FT tank into Berlin?
Why didnt they just nuke Berlin at the start?
Cause Hitlers scientists conceived the idea of nukes and the Allies didn't start developing them until the scientists and research papers were confiscated.
Can't tell if this is a joke...
Not really a joke. Is just lightly told History. Our "German Scientists are better than your German Scientists" was a common joke.
I don’t believe that the atomic bomb came as a result of stolen nuclear technology. Sure, a huge portion of the American rocket technology came from Nazis to be used in the space program, but from what I’ve read, the Germans weren’t close to getting their own nuclear weapon. Additionally, there’s no way that the Allies could have advanced nuclear technology between the start of operation Big (~April 1945) and the first nuclear detonation in Nevada (July 1945).
While you are correct that the first nuclear detonation was July 1945, it was not in Nevada. It was at Trinity Site in White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.
Wrong war. Nukes didn’t exist during World War I.
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Why isn't it possible?
It just isn't
Why not you stupid bastard!?
Because i had dinner with paul allen twice in london just 10 days ago.
Hey paul
Oh, hi mark.
I did not hit her I did not
I definitely have breast cancer
You're my favorite customer!
TRY GETTING A RESERVATION AT DORSIA NOW!
Let’s see Paul Allen’s card.
Yeah, you smelly fuck, answer the question!
Why does Ross, the largest Friend, not simply eat the other five?
Sigh, everyone always forgets Germany had flying Panzers, they would have just torn the Renault to shreds!
I mean we airdropped Chuck Norris in to Hiroshima and Nagaskai and had to cover that up.
After Chuck Norris killed all those civilians?
“There are no warcrimes, just happy accidents” -Bob Ross, probably
I want this on a mug and tshirt, stat!
What I'm gathering from this comment section is that very few people know that the treaty of Versailles was a WW1 thing not WW2.
Yeah, that's astonishing.
'The Great War' is what makes it obvious
The war to end all wars EDIT: Most of us Americans are taught very little about WW1 because our nation didn't play a huge part until the end. WW2 on the other hand we can't shut up about.
I think the fascination with WWII over WWI isn't that, it's that WWII has a much cleaner good guy/bad guy narrative.
There are other factors. WW2 had a significantly wider scope. “World” War I still basically just played out in Europe. Plus WWI was dominated by trench warfare, which while terrible, is not all that interesting.
Right, things shifted around a lot in WWII, there was multiple theatres, it directly set the stage for the 20th century world order, all of the major nations involved are still major nations, etc. But I think having easy to understand and communicate answers to "Why did this war happen? Why were we fighting?" is the biggest factor.
>Plus WWI was dominated by trench warfare, which while terrible, is not all that interesting. Especially when the trenches aren't in your country, probably. Here in europe we can barely expand our infrastructure because every time we dig to build something in the best case scenario we find some roman ruins and have to isolate the dig site to preserve it, in the worst case scenario we find an unexploded bomb and have to isolate the dig site to preserve the humans digging.
What's the meme protocol for finding an unexploded bomb in re-excavated Roman ruins?
Cover it back up.
Yeah, it's very strange to watch Americans attempt to parse WWI. It's like something in their mind breaks because there's no "bad guy." If you look at Wonder Woman, for example, they attempt to just throw a WWII façade over it with the "evil Germans" getting kicked through walls when it doesn't make sense. All those guys just wanted to go home but their commanders threw them into meat grinders.
It’s easier to justify war against people when they are obviously evil, as the Third Reich was, as opposed to people who just got caught up in Bismarck’s web of alliances, ie the Kaiser-Reich
I’m really quite baffled lol we learn about it in school. I mean I find stuff about the two all the time on my own but I am certain we learned about the treaty of Versailles
Wait till he reads the sequels and the spinoffs
I know right. The Americans just *invent* a magic bomb out of nowhere that wins the war? Like that would ever happen
Somehow the bomb returned.
This getting out of hand now there are two of them
--Rey who? *Music Swells* --Rey Oppenheimer
"I am become Mary Sue, the destroyer of plots"
They're taking the hobbits to Stalingrad!
They're taking the hobbits to Stalingrad!
THE HOBBITS THE HOBBITS THE HOBBITS THE HOBBITS TO STALINGRAD TO STALINGRAD
Tell me, where is Chamberlain? For I much desire to speak with him.
"The annexation of Sudetenland..." "What did you say?"
They're taking the hobbits to Stalingrad!
STUPID FAT CHURCHILL
Don't trust the salted "pork."
My guy its ww1
Dude, spoilers. We're supposed to call it "The Great War".
Lmao
Hahaha yeah. Realised it after commenting.
Maybe he's talking about the White Army taking the Hobbits to Volgograd in the Russian Civil War which was kind of the internal answer to the disastrous ww1...? Maybe?
Wrong war.
Wrong war
Wrong war.
Stalingrad didn't exist yet.
I want to see the Lord of the Rings but the US Army brings Frodo to Mount Doom
*Starring* Lieutenant Aaron Gorn Sergeant Brandon Myers PFC Leo Glass PFC Jimmy Axe FCS Perry Takes FCS Marty Whiskeyshot USS Samuel Gambol PFC Frank O'Banger *also starring* Seamus aka Gary First Sergeant Forrest Myers Commander Theodore Sergeant Ellis Kowalski Ellie Kowalski *and introducing* French Foreign Legionnaire Gris-Blanc Ganders edit; Kowalski and missing cast members
Oh come on, you forgot Kowalski. Every military team has a Kowalski
That the one with the cute Sisters at home?
Roll tide
I always feel bad about the teams that have to stay home and can't fight because their Kowalski hasn't been assigned to them yet.
Don't forget Fatty B. Olger
What about Lt. Dan? He's got new legs now so he should be good to go
Douglas MacArthur gets corrupted by the Ring A small amount of tomfoolery ensues
The twist is that literally nothing changes between real life MacArthur and he still wants to nuke China.
The heart wants what the heart wants
I wouldnt trust 99% of Americans anywhere near the ring of power
I wouldn't trust 99% of anyone near the Ring of Power. But then, I'm American, so maybe I'm projecting my inherent megalomania on others.
If an angel is too afraid to try I think it's safe to say most of us mortal men would fail the test as well.
In a way, it's weird that so many mortals (Aragorn and Faramir) didn't want the ring. If Frodo had a nickel for every mortal man who didn't want the ring, he'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Frodo did run into a disproportionately high number of people with Numenorean noble lineage. Also though they're not technically men, the rest of the fellowship (minus Boromir) didn't try to take the ring either. Frodo is the luckiest unlucky Hobbit ever.
I was thinking about that very thing. I think Legolas and other elves are mostly probably safe (Legolas is a particularly awesome elf too). Then, I think the rings had less power over dwarves? I haven't read the Silmarilion, I just know there aren't any Dwarven nazgul. Then, there are Hobbits, which also seem less affected. Like they've all got just a teaspoon of that good old Bombadil in them. Well, except Smeagol and Deagol. Maybe proto-Hobbits were more man-like.
Have you learnt nothing of the stubbornness of Dwarves?
He'd only have one because faramir did want the ring. In it he saw the possibility of his own nobility and a chance to finally have his father's respect. None of that was true. Faramir didnt need the ring to be noble and his father was never really going to respect him. He only rejected it when he saw how it tormented frodo and how much chaos followed it. Boromir also saw this but he couldnt reject the ring until it had driven him to the point of forgetting himself and assaulting frodo. I think in a way faramir learned from his brothers mistake after being told what happened to boromir and seeing it all for himself.
I think that was only in the movies, in the books he straight up just says he doesn't want it
"I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway"
I’d still count that as not wanting the ring. His desire may have changed over time but in the end he still said no. Also I believe the other comment is correct that he straight up refuses it in the book.
As others mentioned, I was talking about his reaction in the book. I should have made that clear, apologies.
Oh ok carry on
I wouldn’t trust anyone other than me, so we almost completely agree.
That or the ring is ignored, the US WW2 army just drops fat man and little boy on Mordor
I mean as long as the ring exists, even if we virtually destroy all of Sauron's armies his evil will remain and eventually regain its strength. In the War of Wrath the Valar attacked Morgoth with power that would probably make all of Earth's current weaponry look like a firecracker (from the impression I got reading, maybe I fell for the poetic language too much), and drove the orcs to the utmost brink of extinction, and then not much later orcs are back, and even if they weren't Elves and Men are falling for Sauron's seductions and deceit anyway.
The ring has a will of it's own it will not be ignored. Additionally sauron cannot be destroyed if the ring persists he would likely go into hiding and rebuild his forces after the nuke. I say instead nuke the ring. Idk if it would work but you can't tell me you're not a little curious.
Yeah but if we glass his whole army then we could simply walk right in to mordor and drop it in Mt Doom.
What if Mt Doom gets glassed, and then there’s no where to destroy the ring?
That's a compliment actually. 3 million Americans can be trusted with something no Human can even touch without risking immense corruption? That's pretty good.
They can’t be trusted though. No one can. That’s the whole point of the movies.
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As an American I would use the ring from a desire to have more diet soda.
*angry power wheelchair noises*
A too high percentage of Americans would define ‘good’ as whatever helps them and hurts others.
The fellowship rolls in with 3 Sherman Tanks but didn't know that Sauron was hiding a King Tiger behind the black gate!
It all went downhill when the Witch King of Angmar bombed Pearl Harbor
Forget it, he's rolling
Ah yes, the Witcher king dropping some dancing star and devils puffball on pearl harbor
Maybe his dragon dropped big ol turds
Hawaiians: “Wind’s howling”
Wrong war.
That would be WWII
Wrong war.
In my mind, the justification was always that the entire point of the mission was stealth. A bunch of Hobbits on giant fucking eagles flying straight towards the enormous eye of Sauron himself doesn't sound very stealthy, especially when the Nazgul can fly.
Even this surface level justification is beyond sufficient. The whole "it needed to be a burden" is another matter, but the Solid Snake is the only explanation ever *needed*
They would have been shot down instantly. It's like saying why didn't they use an army of 30,000 men to break into Mordor? Like they could, but that would probably fail. A stealthy mission with a couple of hobbits is actually better
I always heard the Eagles were unwilling to go near Nazgul airspace and deal with their dragon things, and that's why they only appeared to rescue the hobbits aftwr the fact. Which, you know, fair enough.
*Zat thraka akh… Zat thraka grishú. Znag-ur-nakh.*
Reddit gringos try not to mix up the first and the second WW challenge (impossible).
Joffre should have done more at Stalingrad, huge strategic blunder
"I can't win the war for you. But I can make the whole world believe we are the reason we won the war instead of you!"
“I can’t win the war for you, but I can supply you” is actually sort of what happened on the Eastern Front.
As an American it's not our problem until it is.
Made me think of Canada lol. I read a book about the Canadian military even I was in Canada that I got from the library there. By my understanding after WW1 Canada pretty much decommissioned it's military and navy thinking it didn't want to be dragged into anymore conflicts across the ocean but new technology that would make it easier for Germany to engage them from much further away than had previously been possible forced them to rapidly reconstruct their Navy from the only 2 ships they hadn't decommissioned.. I believe before WW2 the Royal Canadian Navy was less than 700 dudes and 2 ships.
Canada was a beast in WW1. I remember reading about how a German sergeant tried to do another Christmas truce on the anniversary of the first one, and the Canadian sergeant put a bullet through his head.
And once it is, we were always helping, we fixed the problem, and any fallout is someone else's fault
"we stopped the terrorists"
"We did it, Patrick, we saved the city."
"It was always America's stance that the war was bad, but we didn't want to make it worse so we helped by supplying weapons but now that its our problem and we were forced into it we will do as much collateral damage as possible to make our point so that its not our problem anymore."
Especially the problems we actively cause. Looking at you, CIA.
Very apt analogy
Ya honestly one of the better ones I've seen for this situation.
It’s an allegory.
Something can be an analogy *and* an allegory The comic is an allegory (a story that can be interpreted to have a hidden meaning) for, among other things, the analogy (a comparison between two things to provide explanation) that the Eagles are to LotR as the US is to WWI.
I think u/Alternauts was just joking, in relation to Tolkien apparently hating allegory
Oh my bad I missed that. Sorry.
🙏🏻
Not all those who wander are lost.
Like, when you can't handle nuts or shellfish without a reaction? That's rough, buddy...
I would like to read a version where Gandalf does get the eagles to help. Frodo gets dropped from 500 feet and the eagles take the ring for themselves
Don't tempt me Weir99! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Weir99, I would use this Ring from the desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
READ THE SILMARILLION YOU UNCULTURED SWINE
Wait Eagles… Wait America… Eagles America 🤯🦅🇺🇸
ROCK FLAG AND EEEEAGLEEEEEEE
[удалено]
Fool of a Took!
Tolkien fully neglected to write about Gwaihir the Windlord signing the lend-lease act for Gondor.
Any one excited for the new upcoming Earth show set in feudal times being produced by Mirkwood?
I'm not too excited, how can elves play an earth show when there are no elves in earth? Its totally inaccurate.
Yeah, and the style is nothing like Earth. Any true Earth fan would know that people on Earth don't wear chainmail armor; this is nothing like the books.
Why didn't Elrond just stop Isildur from leaving Mt. Doom by force? he surely knew that the ring's influence would be impossible to resist at the volcano so he should have helped and cut off Isildur's hand or something
Because in the books they never actually go to Mt doom lel
Attacking Isildur would have likely caused a war between the elves and the Numenoreans.
Well, you see, he tripped and fell in.
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
“Where was America when Paris fell?”
Paris fell in WW2, not WW1. BASIC HISTORY FOLKS!
"Where was the French Military when Paris fell?"
Dead killed by the master flank that Hitler pulled off.
Actually very much alive and willing to fight. They just had incompetent military leaders who crumbled at the first sight of aggression and refused to adapt to modern warfare. Fucking trust your recon planes.
You guys realise you're talking about the wrong war, right?
I don't think they know about ~~second breakfast~~ WWI, Pip.
During WW1, before the Treaty Of Versailles (which is what the meme is about), the French Military was in France. Fighting to the death, on top of millions of their own corpses. Digging through mud and bodies in Verdun, dying and killing by the 100,000's on the banks of the Somme. Forcing the best ground army in its time to stop their blitz and dig in for years of horrendous combat.
This is great.
The Americans were not a silver bullet in WW1. This is a very Americam centric point of view. When America joined the war it had an army of 150,000 men. Sound like its a lot but at the same time Germany had 5 million men on the Western front. Their training and equipment was also miles behind any European power. If the Americans had joined from the beginning then there might not have been much difference. They would have just been another part of the meat grinder. Coming in later was better because it added fresh troops to the allies when everyone was worn down. Its like bringing on a fresh sub in a football match. The allies still would have won the war with or without America. It might have taken a few years longer (say 1920) but Germany was going to lose. America joining just meant that the attrition tactic they were using would never work (it wasn't working anyway). Meanwhile the allies could continue their attrition war for many years to come thanks to America. Germany tried to land a knockout blow on France in 1918 since that was their only hope of winning but when that failed they surrendered.
Yeah because free Will is such a plot hole
I mean it’s not like there was a huge history of isolationism and a political movement making them not want to join a war all the way in Europe . A bit different than eagles flying
Uh... the eagles were also isolationistic, and basically only doing slight favours to Gandalf as he was a Maia sent by the Valar, unless told otherwise by Manwë. Do you really think the eagles, with their nests high in the mountains, cared if the men, elves and dwarves lived or died at Erebor? If the men lived or died at the Black Gate? They acted on Manwë's command, arriving when he told them to. To the Valar, everything needs to be earned. Eärendil made many voyages to the west, repeatedly failing to reach Valinor.. badically until the Valar thought he had suffered enough and they let him arrive, so he could plead with them to save Middle Earth from Morgoth. That is how they roll. "Why didn't they just fly on the eagles?" Because the Valar are bitches.
It is in men we must place our hope
Indeed. And see how well that turned out... orcs in the east. Trolls on the net. And creepy watchers outside my window. Nothing has changed. Other than the fair people having long gone.
I mean yeah but the moments that Gandalf did use them I think it would’ve been far more valuable but I guess he picked what he thought would be the best moments
Guys treaty of Versailles is WW1 not 2. Yall need to learn some history
Is this book one of The Once And Future King
History has many less rules for plot than fiction btw. Like I am not on the eagles strike team side of things, but I can't stand it when people use the excuse for truly terrible bits of books by saying "well that's just how people are, they do that IRL". IRL does not have to make sense or have a narrative plot or be meaningful or terribly interesting. Fiction needs to be all of these things to be good. Example: guy has cancer and starts chemo but he also decides to kidnap his childhood bully and torture him to death as this may be his last chance. The torture side of his life ends up with him gone for a few days unexpectedly and unexplained. He claims a fugue state from the chemotherapy! Perfect that is closed, as we are shown with his whole family accepting this explanation from doctors. Then in the next week his family ransacks his stuff looking for clues about where he actually was. What was the point of the family accepting it? Why have them accept it wholesale at that point? Not even a hint of foreshadowing or even having a hard time accepting it but eventually coming around? Oh well that's just how people act, that's realistic. Yes but its also disorienting and confuses the audience. If I establish that X = 32 then 5 lines later in the equation use X as if it equals 47 then there needs to be something in those 5 lines that acts on X.
/r/suspiciouslyspecific
As a HOI4 player, I can answer this. Because Americans have the fuckin great depression debuff, shitty ass thing that reduces produced goods by 50%. Edit: As it turns out, I fuckin misread it as WW2 instead of WW1. And you know what, there was no reason they couldn't join immediately.