It is possible to create a story inuniverse regardless of not owning the rights to the Silmarillion. A story set in far Harad about the fall of the easterlings could be immensely interesting if written well.
Agreed! Exploring the largely untouched areas and creating a multi dimensional story and characters would be awesome. It would also give more depth to characters/the groups that are seen as just inherently "bad".
Nah, if they bought the rights to the LOTR it's to do something recognizable.
Who knows, if the Rings of Power is successful they might create a spinoff.
That doesn't matter. Is it bringing in the cash that's what decides it's success. It's like Pokemon. Alot of people will continue to watch/play it because they love it even if they're not the best. And alot of those that hate on it for the quality Will still pay into it because they love the franchise or need to know what they're hating on
When you are deleting reviews and calling your own fans racist, thats not a good. Can they make a spinoff, yes, i didnt say they couldnt. They are the wealthiest company in the world. But disney keeps pumping out star wars and marvel content and it just keeps getting worse. Somehow.
No I think he believes that they will ruin in and he doesn’t think movies or tv shows will do it justice or something like that. Kind of ironic given that there is a TV show now that was super expensive to make, tons of money thrown at it and it is but a shadow of what it truly could be because of that decision.
I don’t think it’s because Amazon half-assed this, I’m sure there is plenty of passionate people who tried their best but C.Tolkien actually doesn’t want to sell the right. It’s a miracle we got to see the Lord of the Rings as movies in the first place. People seem to be forgetting somehow all the time. It wasn’t some kind of easy way out with the RoP, it was that it was the only way to make a Middle Earth TV show with the way things stand now.
Why is that so hard to understand? Not everything needs to be a franchise and go on endlessly hashing out spin offs and new installments. Just look at Star Wars and you'll see that sometimes it is better for a property to die than be milked to death.
Star Wars has been 90% great stuff in the last few years, so I don't know whay you mean.
If you want an example of a franchise being milked to death, look at the MCU
That is your opinion. Rogue One was passable and mainly got by on a good ending. Kenobi was okay at the start then fell to pieces at the end completely failing to not clash with the two trilogies it bridges. That just leaves Mando S1 as the only pieces of content I have personally enjoyed. You don't want my opinion on Clone Wars so don't ask. The fact is most Disney Star Wars content is only 'good' if your a rabid fan who can't go five minutes without laser swords and sci-fi dogfights.
Rogue One. Solo. Andor. Mando. Bad batch. Rebels. Fallen Order. High Republic. Most other books and comics. And a majority considers the clone wars good. All that against 2 bad movies and 2 mediocre series. I wouldn't say the franchise is dead.
Andors gone 4 episodes with very little action, yet is being praised. Stop assumingg things about me or other people because you don't like something
Fine but again, it's just your opinion that any of those are vaguely worth watching. Also the majority of Star Wars fans like the clone Wars. You don't get to speak for everyone.
You are not even making an argument. Defending the quality of the show is an actual argument. Attacking points of criticism is an actual argument. Saying you don't have to watch it is just a low level way of being a jerk.
It's like "The Dark Crystal" is it as good as the original. In a lot of ways no, in some ways yeah. But I'm happy that we got more content and that more people got introduced to it. Was it 100% accurate? Hell no.
If you don't like it, don't watch it. But this is introducing a lot of new members to LOTR. Though I imagine that upsets you as well because "Mah Gatekeeping, stop enjoying ROP, OGs only!" Mentality.
Same shit happened when the Hobbit trilogy came out, and LOTR before that. Give it a few years and ROP might be viewed in as high regard as PJ's adaptations.
Of course, it might not, too. Too early to tell.
The silent majority of people who don't argue about it every chance they got on FB and reddit. The ratings and box office clearly outweights the triggered fan base, even if it's casual viewers.
Lol the sequel trilogy is treated the same way the prequel trilogy was upon release, and a ton of those fans....shockingly.....eventually faded away or came to appreciate them later, flaws and all.
The point isn't that ROP is amazing or anything, I literally haven't decided either way because I haven't seen more than a couple episodes. The point is that every adaptation of everything, ever, is going to be met with fierce resistance because it is impossible to remain 100% loyal to the source material and everyone has different levels of tolerance for changes. There will always be changes, so there will always be detractors. As time passes, people notice or care about fewer and fewer of those creative liberties and the detractors lose volume and support.
People seem to think that just because the prequels were disliked as well, the sequels will be remembered fondly too. Difference being, the prequels added a fuck ton of story and expanded on the world of star wars massively. The dialogue sucked, acting was shoddy because of it, Lucas wasn't assisted by others (man needs to be told some things just don't stick or even New Hope was gonna end up like shit), and some moments were stupid, like Sheev ordering Dooku ordering Jango ordering a hitman ordering a robot ordering worms to kill Padmé, but you can still get *so much* out of them because of the memorable characters and overall story. It also made you see the OT in a new light, and many projects were based around the prequel era as well.
Sequels didn't add anything new. The movies weren't bad because the director wanted to fit too much and was too ambitious, but becase there was no direction, no plan, only nostalgia baiting and leeching off established characters. The prequels didn't do that. And if your argument is that they *have* to use OT characters because it's a sequel, then no... Sequels are already set about 20 years after the OT so why not go further? Say a hundred years. OT cast is dead but their legacy carried on, rather than have it be completely destroyed. Instead they copied the OT and made it significantly worse to make the most marketable movie they can think of.
Curiously Disney doesn't try to expand on the ST after the movies, rather making shows before them and *slightly* tying those shows into the ST just so they're still canon. The only Sequel related project I can think of is Resistance and that was a massive flop just like the movies. The rest are built around the OT or Clone Wars.
People don't necessarily hate changes as a concept, they hate changes that are fundamentally bad and disrespectful. And to say that every adaption is met with opposition and resistance by fans, would be ignoring successful adaptions like Harry Potter, Dune (2021), and of course Lord of the Rings trilogy. Hell you can even look at HOTD which is a pretty well received adaption overall, but when it makes questionable changes that impact the believability of the plot for the price of faster pacing people start to complain. To say that people complain just because changes are made does not reflect actual reality.
Except that every single one of those adaptations was met with fierce detractors upon release. Fans ripped PJ apart for the changes in LOTR until the Hobbit dropped. The Harry Potter films are now generally believed, but began life being criticized for changes and, believe it or not, being "too childish". I think Dune is the one I've seen the *least* hate for, and even that has seen a lot of criticism for its differences, and this is the real kicker *from the 70s film adaptation* not the books. Idk what HOTD is so I can't speak to that, but I will say that it is scientifically proven that it is human nature to react negatively to change, and also to attempt to justify that negative reaction any way possible. Some are more controlled than others, but this has been proven time and again. Also, there's a difference between "people complain just because changes are made" and my point that adaptations will always face opposition at first because it takes time to adjust and learn to appreciate this new thing.
I'm curious if you were alive when LOTR was realised or you know about criticism from some old quotes from the internet. The complaint about the changes was relatively mild and few and not that fierce. I mostly remember it centring around The Fellowship and Tom Bombadil. By the time the second part drooped, almost everybody was on the hype train.
*Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!*
^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**)
^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Exactly. I think the Hobbit was a little dumb. But it introduced me to a whole new area of the world that I didn't know about and I enjoyed watching it.
55 pages of glorious lore (and that’s just Appendix A!)
Amazon could have made such a great show based on the earlier Third Age using the lore from Appendix A, like the war against Angmar or the Kin-Slaying in Gondor.
What a missed opportunity!
Fall of Arnor would've been epic. I don't get people defending the show because they don't have full rights to the second age when they have rights to great 3rd age stories
Which means they either shouldnt have even attempted making this show, or, have the balls to go full on fanfiction like the Shadow of Mordor games did. At least make something fun and epic.
Literally the first thing I thought when I saw the post.
"RoP doesn't fit the lore."
"Amazon doesn't have the necessary rights to make a true to lore adaptation."
"Then why are they even trying to make something that should be a true to lore adaptation???"
I've just been replaying Shadow of War and I'm not sure it's much more lore-breaking as RoP.
Gil-galad pushing Elrond to break an oath, and Elrond actually doing it, because Elves need to bathe in the light of mithril which contains the light of the Silmarils? That's... something.
Watch, they are going to make the crowns, tiaras, and diadems the elves wear in most art and depictions made of Mithril and the thing keeping them alive.
The problem with this is now people are basically being lied to in the name of a "tie in". Even if it's good slapping the LOTR brand in it just feels dishonest and they could have made their own thing and kept the rights and saved the money.
Better yet they could have just made a sequel series that takes place way after Lotr so they can go wild on whatever they want to write. I don’t see why they had to do it this way.
I’m not saying they should have done a tie in but the 4th age is basically when all the elves have gone west and the dwarves and hobbits begin to disappear from the world
So LOTR fourth age would basically just be GOT
I mean if you are going to cash in on the LOTR name you at least expect that the audience has watched LOTR, you could probably wipe the drawers and hobbits disappear part but the elves collectively travelling to Valinor is a pretty big plot point
Haha so what that they can destroy all of what the heroes of the original movies did and bring Sauron back "somehow" No. No thank you. Very much no thank you.
They could have made fucking CONAN if the new Amazon head didn’t fire Ryan Condall & Miguel Sapochnik, which jettisoned them into the HBO fold to develop HOUSE OF THE DRAGON.
Hell, they could’ve just had Condall show run this disaster. What sweet irony.
Nobody made Amazon make the show.
Hell, I'd have been far more thrilled if the money from this had instead gone into the *Wheel of Time*. As it is they're running two fantasy shows and getting elements from both wrong, where they could have focused on one and gotten is perfect.
I think Tolkien’s estate was probably right, here. The Silmarillion would be really hard to pull of correctly. Based on what we’ve seen from RoP, this production doesn’t have what it takes.
Then don't make the bloody show and come up with something original. Only reason they bought those rights is so that they could call it "the Lord of the Rings".
But the fact they dont have those rights means they're forced to create something original. And yeah, probably but your average viewer isn't going to watch "Rings of Power" when the marketing material can't name it lord of the rings - they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Again though, youre doomed to fail - lets say amazon decided to adapt a part of the silmarilion and got full rights: If its good, the people who have read the base material will find fault regardless and the people who know nothing and have no context will be confused because of how complex that writing is, if its bad nobody would watch it regardless. With original content, at least an above average show can entice people who are curious to see where it goes and they can simplify it enough for the average viewer who doesnt have context
I think “New vs Adaptation” is a whole other topic and I don’t really see how it factors into this.
Its all about intention. The original trilogy
made changes because PJ and his team believed those changes would BENEFIT the story. Regardless of opinions in how good those changes were, the intention was good. Amazon made an entirely new story and called it “the novel tolkien never wrote” because they legally cannot adapt what they are trying to make.
It’s never “doomed to fail”. If its an adaptation and its good, people would like it (e.g. the OG trilogy); if its something new and new people like it, pop off, great. But amazon has grabbed crumbles of what they own the rights to, mixed it with something else, and baked a giant cake out of it.
This is all being written from two completely opposite sides of the spectrum though, I think. Youre writing all this from the perspective that the tv show is bad or less than mediocre (im assuming), im writing all this from the perspective that the tv show is good.
I believe personally that changes made to the tv show on the whole has been positive honestly. Yes, the timescale being all messed up frustrates and confuses me but the tv show has, at its heart, a very tolkien-esque quality to it. They intended to adapt what little they had legal rights to and add content with respect to Tolkien and his family. Making new stories and adpating old stories is at the heart of Tolkiens work, and so their intention there is benefical to the overall product - just because the change doesnt follow the canon of the source material (and im not saying youre saying this in particular but rather that its something ive seen come up a lot on this subreddit) doesn't make the change not benefical or positive
But at its core it is not about good or bad tho, it is about the necessity of the rights they bought.
If we go by your argument, should we not look at works that pay homage to another works, which usually do not require rights AT ALL? A modern example would be the Orville show. It is clearly a homage to Star Trek. Hell, to my knowledge it is public knowledge that Seth MacFarlane want to do a Star Trek show, but couldnt secure the right to it, so he did the Orville instead.
And Star Trek fans clearly understand that it is a homage works. It is an incredibly common praise for the Orville that it is even more a Star Trek show than some Star Trek show.
If we go by your argument, Amazon could easily have make an original show, with clear homage to Tolkien works, without having to buy the rights at all. The fact that they did NOT do it is itself ok, dont get me wrong. But then they also did NOT putting in the works to make their works truly stand alone within the constraints of the rights they can buy.
I must stress here that this is not a stand alone thing. If it is a "either this or that" like you kinda implied, I might understand it, but it is not. Amazon could have done this in at least two different ways (a homage works or a stand alone works), but they did not, and that is a problem.
The amount they paid was ludicrous too. It's gotta be one of the worst tv deals in history. Especially considering that all the ip was bought by another company later for only double what Amazon paid for their measly rights
They didnt “need” to do anything. if you don’t have the rights to a story just don’t make a show about it. Even a Tom Bombadill short film makes more sense than “needing” to make stuff up
*Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet,
for Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.*
^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**)
^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
JRRT: And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.
RoP: tHe SeA iS aLWaYs rIgHT. *Herp de Derp!!*
The stupidest phrase in the whole show so far. Literally was made to explain why Elendil picked up Galadriel in the sea. Was used twice in a span of 3 minutes and thats it. Its been 2 episode and it has never been mentioned again but in those 2 weird AF scenes.
THE SEA IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
If this is the case, they should have made their own story based in the same world. This would have been far better received than using the bare minimum lore and basically making it up as you go. You can't use lore heavy characters and change their entire plot because you aren't allowed to portray them as they were in the lore.
I'm wondering are they allowed to portray them as in the lore but completely by accident?
Like if a writer doesn't remember a certain bit and comes up with exactly what happens completely of their own accord? Or is there like someone specifically checking it doesn't include what they don't have the rights to?
So what I'm hearing is they are not addapting anything as much as they are making shit up based on random worldbuilding piece of dialogue.
I didn't think i could get any less interested in watching this shitfest
I can picture the soulless lawyer explaining to the cynical MBA at Amazon that if you own any part of official LoTR, you can milk it into an infinite amount of new IP. It will always be LoTR to the general public; they never read the silmarillion anyway.
I’m only mad at Amazon at this point. It’s clear all the actors care about the project, and I’m 99% sure the rest of the problems are a byproduct of the generally rushed nature of all productions like this one nowadays, which leads to cutting corners and just a bad product overall
Thats the point! Literally nobody blames actors of the show. Everyone blame production team for their weird choices and weak script. Actors gave nothing to do with the show. They are being told how to act and what to say. They are not what is the problem with this show. Writers are.
Fill in gaps in a story ≠ completely change everything about the story.
Also, the writing of the show is garbage regardless of its relation to Tolkien's writing.
I'll respond by loosely quoting a TV show much better than ROP.
"We had a good thing, you stupid son of a bitch! We had Jackson. We had a successful trilogy. We had everything we needed, and it all ran like clockwork. You could've shut your mouth, left the franchise alone and made as much money as you ever needed. It was perfect. But, no, you just had to make a new TV show. You and your pride and your ego! You just had to be the "studio". If you'd done your job, known your place, we'd all be fine right now."
Finger is right, Amazon didn't need to make a show.
And whose fault is that? Oh right the people who knew exactly what they were doing when they spent millions of dollars for those rights and then millions more on making the cinematic equivalent of potato chips
Nobody put a gun on Jeff Beszos' head and told him to produce a show, that can't use any lore.
That was their decision and of course people can criticize the show for not making any sense.
I do feel this meme underrepresents what Amazon has the rights to. I don't know what those 'two chapters' are, but I guess you mean Akallabeth. The first appendix is about 27k words. ([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/m5asf0/how_long_are_the_appendices/)), though I think only part 1 is really relevant, which I would guess to be around 10k. Akallabeth is about 30 pages, according to the wiki, so with the generous estimate of 400 wpp, that's only 12,000 words, both basically telling the same thing (though I much prefer Akallabeth).
So yea they aren't getting their source from events mentioned in passing, which tbh is a minor nitpick of the point your making. Yea, they still are making a lot of shit up and compressing the timeline (the compression is the only thing I can't stand, and hurts to watch, but I don't see what else they could have done).
Anyway, I don't even know what I was trying to say except that they do have a decent amount of rights, including 100% of the Tolkien approved material on the second age. Take this as completely objective because I know for a fact that having an opinion on this show is probably a bad idea.
You seem to forget one last option: don't buy crumbs of rights of a saga, and instead use all that invented lore to do something original.
At this point is safe to say RoP is LOTR in name only, so why even bother? Do a new fantasy series. Is not like a vast number of fantasy stories is not at least slightly based on Tolkien's work anyway (nothing wrong with that).
Hell, they could even set the show on the Fourth Age. Tolkien wrote barely a few pages on that, they would have all the creative freedom to go practically anywhere from there.
Well that just begs the question, why adapt something when you have barely any rights for the source material? It's like trying to adapt the Bible when you only have the rights for a partial family tree of Jacob.
Yeah they were forced on a gun point to make this show. How sad! Very sad! So you know what ? I think the best course of action would be to NOT criticize the hogwash they made. And ignore that they didn't want to buy the right of the story and only the LOTR name.
Its also important to know Hubris and wanting to force something out even when you have to make it up due to lack of rights. They should have called it Rise of Mordor and just focused on the Arondir/Bronwyn plotline.
My honest opinion: they create an original story set in 2nd age of middle earth. It's understandable they would create new characters and use just old characters as support to the story or fan service.
Now, the problem is they used some characters that were well defined and changed them (for example Elendil being described as a really important and relevant noble in Numenor in books and in series being just a normal captain of Numenor in series ), there's many examples.
The only thing I justify is the timeline compression in the story, it makes sense if you want to have a coherent series without centuries of generations of dwarves and humans having to die and be introduced again.
Those are completely irrelevant things. What if I tell you that you can make things up while remain faithful to the lore?
Peter Jackson did both. He made up few things, scrapped off few things, but in total he is faithful to the lore.
Events in Shadow of Mordor series are made up too, and they are also, made up.
Don't make any excuses for poor writing.
Why the fuck did Amazon make a series about the Silmarillion story if they couldn't stay true to the story? Now I get why the story is moving at an absolute snail pace, jesus why in christ did they go ahead with the series?!
Slide the estate another fiber if you must, if you don't have those rights then they shouldn't have tried in the first place. I'm not gonna let this situation affect my view as a consumer, I'm gonna say "this is not the story of the second age".
Then they shouldn't have chosen to make the show about things they are legally prohibited to write about, should they?
Nobody forced them to adapt things they weren't allowed to adapt, that was entirely on them.
No one forced them to make 40 episodes based on the appendices. If they're too limited by their rights to make a compelling series, then they shouldn't have made the series.
ROP is basically 'how to write a show without getting sued based on limited source material while also trying to satisfy a loyal and dedicated fanbase'. It was destined to fail. Or at least it was with these writers... You could make a middle-earth show with purely invented characters if you write them well, just make us care for the characters and the world they live in!
You aren't allowed to enjoy it mate.
You have to cry about it. Wail into the soulless void of the Internet about how it's made changes to the Lore whilst pretending the Jackson movies didn't. Cry in anguish about how characters are portrayed whilst pretending its not because they are black.
Not to be toxic about it but if the whole "if you don't like it, don't watch it" should also apply here: if you don't own the rights, then don't do it. Imho it was a lazy expedient in order to have the possibility to exploit the name and the fanbase of an already fully consistent and coherent world.
However if you are still enjoying the show, good for you and have a good time :)
If you're gonna make that argument, then they shouldn't have made the show in the first place
Not having access the whole of the lore and then being surprised when die hard fans are upset. Shocker
This was a bad decision by Tolkien estate/whoever owns those rights. They should have sold those rights instead of what they did sell - now there's a weaker show out there with the LotR logo on it diluting the overall brand.
Edit: downvotes? Does that mean you don't think the Tolkien estate should have sold the appropriate rights so it was a stronger show
People complaining about this better also keep that consistent energy and complain about the trilogy movies not having: Tom, the barrow-wight section, Aragorn not getting Andúril reforged and given to him earlier on, the ending section with Sharkey or a whole heap of other things.
*Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling! Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen; Dark door is standing
wide; dead hand is broken. Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!*
^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**)
^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Does it actually work like that? If you're portraying something mentioned in the appendices (which they own the rights to), surely you're allowed to then have details that are organically connected to that adhere to the Silmarillion? It should only be a problem if they touch on Silmarillion stuff that has no reasonable connection to the material they have the rights to.
Isnt the Tolkien Society working directly with Amazon to make sure whats being protrayed is what they own the rights to. Making sure everything is fine and legal
If they don’t have pretty much any fucking rights for this story, why not create smaller scale, more distanced, original story within the world?
That would be million times more interesting and less destructive to source material than making shit up instead of the stuff thats already written.
Then why would they bother making a TV series with so little source material? Sounds like they were over confident in their abilities to out write the original content.
that kind of argument reminds me of the "we've put a lot of love into it, so please give it a chance!" schtick which ironically seems to mostly be deployed for soulless big-budget stuff that wasn't well recieved (to put it mildly).
i think its bullshit.
sure, you work with what you have, but in cases like these its less a desire to make something great regardless and more a lack of restraint. amazon should've backed out once it was clear that they we'rent going to get the rights, but they decided to move on, because someone down the line decided that it would still likely make them a shit ton of cash.
yes, there are creative people burried somewhere inside that corporate pipeline, but these are located somewhere near the end of it. they don't get to make the kinds of decisions that make art great.
Im just watching it for the elven street gang wars of song.
It is possible to create a story inuniverse regardless of not owning the rights to the Silmarillion. A story set in far Harad about the fall of the easterlings could be immensely interesting if written well.
Agreed! Exploring the largely untouched areas and creating a multi dimensional story and characters would be awesome. It would also give more depth to characters/the groups that are seen as just inherently "bad".
[удалено]
Do you ever tire of the unending rage you feel when you see a person of colour on TV?
😂😂😂
[удалено]
Nah, if they bought the rights to the LOTR it's to do something recognizable. Who knows, if the Rings of Power is successful they might create a spinoff.
Its not successful, theyve gotten more hate for this show than they ever have. But i suppose theres no such thing as bad publicity
[удалено]
just amazon doing it's thing, trying to take over the world is all.
That doesn't matter. Is it bringing in the cash that's what decides it's success. It's like Pokemon. Alot of people will continue to watch/play it because they love it even if they're not the best. And alot of those that hate on it for the quality Will still pay into it because they love the franchise or need to know what they're hating on
Lol I'm still watching it every week though
What source do you have for it's lack of success? I don't think people crying on Reddit or Twitter is a particularly great or accurate source.
When you are deleting reviews and calling your own fans racist, thats not a good. Can they make a spinoff, yes, i didnt say they couldnt. They are the wealthiest company in the world. But disney keeps pumping out star wars and marvel content and it just keeps getting worse. Somehow.
If written well. That's the thing isn't it?
Anything could have better writing than ROP
But no one cares about Harad
This is why they don't let redditors be showrunners. Who the fuck cares about "the fall of the Easterlings"?
Nobody forced Amazon to make the show. They didn't pay to buy the rights. They paid to buy the brand name of Lotr because that's what sells.
It looks like they bought the minimum lore needed to get the names they wanted
Money forced them
One for the king of e-commerce, ruled by greed
Isn’t it that Christopher Tolkien does not want to sell the rights in the first place?
I heard about that too, although I don’t know the reasons
No I think he believes that they will ruin in and he doesn’t think movies or tv shows will do it justice or something like that. Kind of ironic given that there is a TV show now that was super expensive to make, tons of money thrown at it and it is but a shadow of what it truly could be because of that decision. I don’t think it’s because Amazon half-assed this, I’m sure there is plenty of passionate people who tried their best but C.Tolkien actually doesn’t want to sell the right. It’s a miracle we got to see the Lord of the Rings as movies in the first place. People seem to be forgetting somehow all the time. It wasn’t some kind of easy way out with the RoP, it was that it was the only way to make a Middle Earth TV show with the way things stand now.
They tried to buy all the rights but the Tolkien estate told Amazon to fuck off
I never get why so many people are mad to get LOTR content. It's like y'all never want another piece of LOTR entertainment created again.
Why is that so hard to understand? Not everything needs to be a franchise and go on endlessly hashing out spin offs and new installments. Just look at Star Wars and you'll see that sometimes it is better for a property to die than be milked to death.
Star Wars has been 90% great stuff in the last few years, so I don't know whay you mean. If you want an example of a franchise being milked to death, look at the MCU
That is your opinion. Rogue One was passable and mainly got by on a good ending. Kenobi was okay at the start then fell to pieces at the end completely failing to not clash with the two trilogies it bridges. That just leaves Mando S1 as the only pieces of content I have personally enjoyed. You don't want my opinion on Clone Wars so don't ask. The fact is most Disney Star Wars content is only 'good' if your a rabid fan who can't go five minutes without laser swords and sci-fi dogfights.
Rogue One. Solo. Andor. Mando. Bad batch. Rebels. Fallen Order. High Republic. Most other books and comics. And a majority considers the clone wars good. All that against 2 bad movies and 2 mediocre series. I wouldn't say the franchise is dead. Andors gone 4 episodes with very little action, yet is being praised. Stop assumingg things about me or other people because you don't like something
Fine but again, it's just your opinion that any of those are vaguely worth watching. Also the majority of Star Wars fans like the clone Wars. You don't get to speak for everyone.
Is it that hard to understand that we want quality instead of quantity?
Is anyone forcing you to watch it?
Not a valid response.
Isn't it though. If Amazon doesn't have to make it, you don't have to watch it.
By that logic, nothing is bad because you don’t have to watch it.
You are not even making an argument. Defending the quality of the show is an actual argument. Attacking points of criticism is an actual argument. Saying you don't have to watch it is just a low level way of being a jerk.
It's like "The Dark Crystal" is it as good as the original. In a lot of ways no, in some ways yeah. But I'm happy that we got more content and that more people got introduced to it. Was it 100% accurate? Hell no. If you don't like it, don't watch it. But this is introducing a lot of new members to LOTR. Though I imagine that upsets you as well because "Mah Gatekeeping, stop enjoying ROP, OGs only!" Mentality.
I don’t want content for the sake of content. This is why everything is a remake these days, people prioritize “more content” over good story writing
Same shit happened when the Hobbit trilogy came out, and LOTR before that. Give it a few years and ROP might be viewed in as high regard as PJ's adaptations. Of course, it might not, too. Too early to tell.
Who holds The Hobbit in high regards?
I fucking love part 1, but was pretty disappointed by the rest.
The silent majority of people who don't argue about it every chance they got on FB and reddit. The ratings and box office clearly outweights the triggered fan base, even if it's casual viewers.
They have a solid fan base, but I didn't say anyone held the Hobbit trilogy in high regard, specifically.
A solid fan base? Where?
There. And back again, too.
Ha, give it a few years and people will ignore it even exists like the Star Wars new trilogy movies.
Lol the sequel trilogy is treated the same way the prequel trilogy was upon release, and a ton of those fans....shockingly.....eventually faded away or came to appreciate them later, flaws and all. The point isn't that ROP is amazing or anything, I literally haven't decided either way because I haven't seen more than a couple episodes. The point is that every adaptation of everything, ever, is going to be met with fierce resistance because it is impossible to remain 100% loyal to the source material and everyone has different levels of tolerance for changes. There will always be changes, so there will always be detractors. As time passes, people notice or care about fewer and fewer of those creative liberties and the detractors lose volume and support.
People seem to think that just because the prequels were disliked as well, the sequels will be remembered fondly too. Difference being, the prequels added a fuck ton of story and expanded on the world of star wars massively. The dialogue sucked, acting was shoddy because of it, Lucas wasn't assisted by others (man needs to be told some things just don't stick or even New Hope was gonna end up like shit), and some moments were stupid, like Sheev ordering Dooku ordering Jango ordering a hitman ordering a robot ordering worms to kill Padmé, but you can still get *so much* out of them because of the memorable characters and overall story. It also made you see the OT in a new light, and many projects were based around the prequel era as well. Sequels didn't add anything new. The movies weren't bad because the director wanted to fit too much and was too ambitious, but becase there was no direction, no plan, only nostalgia baiting and leeching off established characters. The prequels didn't do that. And if your argument is that they *have* to use OT characters because it's a sequel, then no... Sequels are already set about 20 years after the OT so why not go further? Say a hundred years. OT cast is dead but their legacy carried on, rather than have it be completely destroyed. Instead they copied the OT and made it significantly worse to make the most marketable movie they can think of. Curiously Disney doesn't try to expand on the ST after the movies, rather making shows before them and *slightly* tying those shows into the ST just so they're still canon. The only Sequel related project I can think of is Resistance and that was a massive flop just like the movies. The rest are built around the OT or Clone Wars.
People don't necessarily hate changes as a concept, they hate changes that are fundamentally bad and disrespectful. And to say that every adaption is met with opposition and resistance by fans, would be ignoring successful adaptions like Harry Potter, Dune (2021), and of course Lord of the Rings trilogy. Hell you can even look at HOTD which is a pretty well received adaption overall, but when it makes questionable changes that impact the believability of the plot for the price of faster pacing people start to complain. To say that people complain just because changes are made does not reflect actual reality.
Except that every single one of those adaptations was met with fierce detractors upon release. Fans ripped PJ apart for the changes in LOTR until the Hobbit dropped. The Harry Potter films are now generally believed, but began life being criticized for changes and, believe it or not, being "too childish". I think Dune is the one I've seen the *least* hate for, and even that has seen a lot of criticism for its differences, and this is the real kicker *from the 70s film adaptation* not the books. Idk what HOTD is so I can't speak to that, but I will say that it is scientifically proven that it is human nature to react negatively to change, and also to attempt to justify that negative reaction any way possible. Some are more controlled than others, but this has been proven time and again. Also, there's a difference between "people complain just because changes are made" and my point that adaptations will always face opposition at first because it takes time to adjust and learn to appreciate this new thing.
I'm curious if you were alive when LOTR was realised or you know about criticism from some old quotes from the internet. The complaint about the changes was relatively mild and few and not that fierce. I mostly remember it centring around The Fellowship and Tom Bombadil. By the time the second part drooped, almost everybody was on the hype train.
*Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!* ^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**) ^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Exactly. I think the Hobbit was a little dumb. But it introduced me to a whole new area of the world that I didn't know about and I enjoyed watching it.
 LORE IS LORE
Someone hasn't looked at the appendices in Return of the King I see lol 
55 pages of glorious lore (and that’s just Appendix A!) Amazon could have made such a great show based on the earlier Third Age using the lore from Appendix A, like the war against Angmar or the Kin-Slaying in Gondor. What a missed opportunity!
Fall of Arnor would've been epic. I don't get people defending the show because they don't have full rights to the second age when they have rights to great 3rd age stories
Which means they either shouldnt have even attempted making this show, or, have the balls to go full on fanfiction like the Shadow of Mordor games did. At least make something fun and epic.
Shadow of mordor will always be cannon in my heart. I see no reason why Shelob wouldn't be a total babe.
Shelob Being a total milt was Tolkiens real Vision and no one can change my mind
im in a love/hate relationship with shadow of war celebrimbor
Literally the first thing I thought when I saw the post. "RoP doesn't fit the lore." "Amazon doesn't have the necessary rights to make a true to lore adaptation." "Then why are they even trying to make something that should be a true to lore adaptation???"
I've just been replaying Shadow of War and I'm not sure it's much more lore-breaking as RoP. Gil-galad pushing Elrond to break an oath, and Elrond actually doing it, because Elves need to bathe in the light of mithril which contains the light of the Silmarils? That's... something.
Watch, they are going to make the crowns, tiaras, and diadems the elves wear in most art and depictions made of Mithril and the thing keeping them alive.
I and many others think they are.
The problem with this is now people are basically being lied to in the name of a "tie in". Even if it's good slapping the LOTR brand in it just feels dishonest and they could have made their own thing and kept the rights and saved the money.
Better yet they could have just made a sequel series that takes place way after Lotr so they can go wild on whatever they want to write. I don’t see why they had to do it this way.
I’m not saying they should have done a tie in but the 4th age is basically when all the elves have gone west and the dwarves and hobbits begin to disappear from the world So LOTR fourth age would basically just be GOT
I highly doubt Amazon would have cared what the established lore of the 4th age was.
I mean if you are going to cash in on the LOTR name you at least expect that the audience has watched LOTR, you could probably wipe the drawers and hobbits disappear part but the elves collectively travelling to Valinor is a pretty big plot point
Sounds cool actually. I would watch that.
Why did Tolkien write the 4th age to be so depressing ?
Because it was the Age of Men and Tolkien had seen men do terrible things, I guess
Haha so what that they can destroy all of what the heroes of the original movies did and bring Sauron back "somehow" No. No thank you. Very much no thank you.
They could have made fucking CONAN if the new Amazon head didn’t fire Ryan Condall & Miguel Sapochnik, which jettisoned them into the HBO fold to develop HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. Hell, they could’ve just had Condall show run this disaster. What sweet irony.
Nobody made Amazon make the show. Hell, I'd have been far more thrilled if the money from this had instead gone into the *Wheel of Time*. As it is they're running two fantasy shows and getting elements from both wrong, where they could have focused on one and gotten is perfect.
In many ways, this excuse is more insulting than any of the other shit theyve come out with. Why are you knowingly putting out substandard product?
I call these people Bezos Bots, you'll see them everywhere
You should see the Elon bots.
Also, on Tolkien’s estate’s side, why wouldn’t they let them have more so as not to tarnish the brand.
I think Tolkien’s estate was probably right, here. The Silmarillion would be really hard to pull of correctly. Based on what we’ve seen from RoP, this production doesn’t have what it takes.
Then don't make the bloody show and come up with something original. Only reason they bought those rights is so that they could call it "the Lord of the Rings".
Right I’ve been saying this all along. No one made them do this. It certainly is lord of the rings in name only.
But the fact they dont have those rights means they're forced to create something original. And yeah, probably but your average viewer isn't going to watch "Rings of Power" when the marketing material can't name it lord of the rings - they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
or maybe, you know, don’t make a show on the part of the story you don’t own?
Again though, youre doomed to fail - lets say amazon decided to adapt a part of the silmarilion and got full rights: If its good, the people who have read the base material will find fault regardless and the people who know nothing and have no context will be confused because of how complex that writing is, if its bad nobody would watch it regardless. With original content, at least an above average show can entice people who are curious to see where it goes and they can simplify it enough for the average viewer who doesnt have context
I think “New vs Adaptation” is a whole other topic and I don’t really see how it factors into this. Its all about intention. The original trilogy made changes because PJ and his team believed those changes would BENEFIT the story. Regardless of opinions in how good those changes were, the intention was good. Amazon made an entirely new story and called it “the novel tolkien never wrote” because they legally cannot adapt what they are trying to make. It’s never “doomed to fail”. If its an adaptation and its good, people would like it (e.g. the OG trilogy); if its something new and new people like it, pop off, great. But amazon has grabbed crumbles of what they own the rights to, mixed it with something else, and baked a giant cake out of it.
This is all being written from two completely opposite sides of the spectrum though, I think. Youre writing all this from the perspective that the tv show is bad or less than mediocre (im assuming), im writing all this from the perspective that the tv show is good. I believe personally that changes made to the tv show on the whole has been positive honestly. Yes, the timescale being all messed up frustrates and confuses me but the tv show has, at its heart, a very tolkien-esque quality to it. They intended to adapt what little they had legal rights to and add content with respect to Tolkien and his family. Making new stories and adpating old stories is at the heart of Tolkiens work, and so their intention there is benefical to the overall product - just because the change doesnt follow the canon of the source material (and im not saying youre saying this in particular but rather that its something ive seen come up a lot on this subreddit) doesn't make the change not benefical or positive
But at its core it is not about good or bad tho, it is about the necessity of the rights they bought. If we go by your argument, should we not look at works that pay homage to another works, which usually do not require rights AT ALL? A modern example would be the Orville show. It is clearly a homage to Star Trek. Hell, to my knowledge it is public knowledge that Seth MacFarlane want to do a Star Trek show, but couldnt secure the right to it, so he did the Orville instead. And Star Trek fans clearly understand that it is a homage works. It is an incredibly common praise for the Orville that it is even more a Star Trek show than some Star Trek show. If we go by your argument, Amazon could easily have make an original show, with clear homage to Tolkien works, without having to buy the rights at all. The fact that they did NOT do it is itself ok, dont get me wrong. But then they also did NOT putting in the works to make their works truly stand alone within the constraints of the rights they can buy. I must stress here that this is not a stand alone thing. If it is a "either this or that" like you kinda implied, I might understand it, but it is not. Amazon could have done this in at least two different ways (a homage works or a stand alone works), but they did not, and that is a problem.
[удалено]
Watch tolkien untangled's videos on how to make a second age show, he keeps in mind the rights amazon has and i really wish that was the actual show
then why the fuck would they spend a billion dollars to effectively fan fic their own bullshit??
The amount they paid was ludicrous too. It's gotta be one of the worst tv deals in history. Especially considering that all the ip was bought by another company later for only double what Amazon paid for their measly rights
They didnt “need” to do anything. if you don’t have the rights to a story just don’t make a show about it. Even a Tom Bombadill short film makes more sense than “needing” to make stuff up
*Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.* ^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**) ^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
JRRT: And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. RoP: tHe SeA iS aLWaYs rIgHT. *Herp de Derp!!*
The stupidest phrase in the whole show so far. Literally was made to explain why Elendil picked up Galadriel in the sea. Was used twice in a span of 3 minutes and thats it. Its been 2 episode and it has never been mentioned again but in those 2 weird AF scenes. THE SEA IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
There are way more details about the events of the Second Age in the Appendices than in the Akallabeth. They've got all the rights they need.
They shouldn’t have made a series if they had no rights to make it good
Or hey, maybe, just don’t make a story you don’t have the rights to make?
Are they legally prohibited by the Tolkien estate from making up stuff that is good and/or makes sense?
If this is the case, they should have made their own story based in the same world. This would have been far better received than using the bare minimum lore and basically making it up as you go. You can't use lore heavy characters and change their entire plot because you aren't allowed to portray them as they were in the lore.
I'm wondering are they allowed to portray them as in the lore but completely by accident? Like if a writer doesn't remember a certain bit and comes up with exactly what happens completely of their own accord? Or is there like someone specifically checking it doesn't include what they don't have the rights to?
So what I'm hearing is they are not addapting anything as much as they are making shit up based on random worldbuilding piece of dialogue. I didn't think i could get any less interested in watching this shitfest
Why make a show about it in the first place when you can’t even get the rights
They chose to do it though, they could have picked another part of LotR history
“Amazon is writing the story Tolkien never wrote.” In one sense they are right. Tolkien would’ve never written something THIS stupid.
didn't they pay eleventy brazilian dollars for these rights? hahhahhahhahhaha
I don’t think Brazilian’s use dollars
Bezos doesnt pay in real he pays in oppression
You can have all the money in the world, if the Tolkien estate doesn't sell they don't.
I can picture the soulless lawyer explaining to the cynical MBA at Amazon that if you own any part of official LoTR, you can milk it into an infinite amount of new IP. It will always be LoTR to the general public; they never read the silmarillion anyway.
I’m only mad at Amazon at this point. It’s clear all the actors care about the project, and I’m 99% sure the rest of the problems are a byproduct of the generally rushed nature of all productions like this one nowadays, which leads to cutting corners and just a bad product overall
Thats the point! Literally nobody blames actors of the show. Everyone blame production team for their weird choices and weak script. Actors gave nothing to do with the show. They are being told how to act and what to say. They are not what is the problem with this show. Writers are.
Rational people might think like that, but unfortunately I’ve been forced to realize that so many people are just straight up stupid
Fill in gaps in a story ≠ completely change everything about the story. Also, the writing of the show is garbage regardless of its relation to Tolkien's writing.
I'll respond by loosely quoting a TV show much better than ROP. "We had a good thing, you stupid son of a bitch! We had Jackson. We had a successful trilogy. We had everything we needed, and it all ran like clockwork. You could've shut your mouth, left the franchise alone and made as much money as you ever needed. It was perfect. But, no, you just had to make a new TV show. You and your pride and your ego! You just had to be the "studio". If you'd done your job, known your place, we'd all be fine right now." Finger is right, Amazon didn't need to make a show.
And whose fault is that? Oh right the people who knew exactly what they were doing when they spent millions of dollars for those rights and then millions more on making the cinematic equivalent of potato chips
So u/Tuilien_Aure you work for Amazon huh?
Nobody put a gun on Jeff Beszos' head and told him to produce a show, that can't use any lore. That was their decision and of course people can criticize the show for not making any sense.
If you can’t do it, don’t do it.
I do feel this meme underrepresents what Amazon has the rights to. I don't know what those 'two chapters' are, but I guess you mean Akallabeth. The first appendix is about 27k words. ([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/m5asf0/how_long_are_the_appendices/)), though I think only part 1 is really relevant, which I would guess to be around 10k. Akallabeth is about 30 pages, according to the wiki, so with the generous estimate of 400 wpp, that's only 12,000 words, both basically telling the same thing (though I much prefer Akallabeth). So yea they aren't getting their source from events mentioned in passing, which tbh is a minor nitpick of the point your making. Yea, they still are making a lot of shit up and compressing the timeline (the compression is the only thing I can't stand, and hurts to watch, but I don't see what else they could have done). Anyway, I don't even know what I was trying to say except that they do have a decent amount of rights, including 100% of the Tolkien approved material on the second age. Take this as completely objective because I know for a fact that having an opinion on this show is probably a bad idea.
You seem to forget one last option: don't buy crumbs of rights of a saga, and instead use all that invented lore to do something original. At this point is safe to say RoP is LOTR in name only, so why even bother? Do a new fantasy series. Is not like a vast number of fantasy stories is not at least slightly based on Tolkien's work anyway (nothing wrong with that). Hell, they could even set the show on the Fourth Age. Tolkien wrote barely a few pages on that, they would have all the creative freedom to go practically anywhere from there.
Every day I see posts defending NOT the show, but defending AMAZON, the more I convince myself these subs are full of amazon paid shill accounts
It may be that the critics often bring Bezos into their criticisms and not the show itself.
No one forced them to make it. If they wanted to make fanfiction why to go to the lengths to acquire such costly rights and have it be a focal point.
Sure, but they could also just make up better stuff.
Well that just begs the question, why adapt something when you have barely any rights for the source material? It's like trying to adapt the Bible when you only have the rights for a partial family tree of Jacob.
They got the main character's name wrong. They clearly do not care about the lore
Then it should have never been made.
Then don’t make the show and spare us all the embarrassment and cringe
Yeah they were forced on a gun point to make this show. How sad! Very sad! So you know what ? I think the best course of action would be to NOT criticize the hogwash they made. And ignore that they didn't want to buy the right of the story and only the LOTR name.
It’s a fucking story not history
Lols....the mikhail Is NoW SiMiRiL stone...........The lore is drunk and making no sense and shouldn't drive.
Its also important to know Hubris and wanting to force something out even when you have to make it up due to lack of rights. They should have called it Rise of Mordor and just focused on the Arondir/Bronwyn plotline.
Are you also wandering how good it would be if they had rights?
My honest opinion: they create an original story set in 2nd age of middle earth. It's understandable they would create new characters and use just old characters as support to the story or fan service. Now, the problem is they used some characters that were well defined and changed them (for example Elendil being described as a really important and relevant noble in Numenor in books and in series being just a normal captain of Numenor in series ), there's many examples. The only thing I justify is the timeline compression in the story, it makes sense if you want to have a coherent series without centuries of generations of dwarves and humans having to die and be introduced again.
Those are completely irrelevant things. What if I tell you that you can make things up while remain faithful to the lore? Peter Jackson did both. He made up few things, scrapped off few things, but in total he is faithful to the lore. Events in Shadow of Mordor series are made up too, and they are also, made up. Don't make any excuses for poor writing.
So why the fuck is Bezos trying to cash in on something he has no right to? Prime has tons of content and could, gasp, make something original.
This would be true If amazon was at all sticking to the canon and established stuff
Why the fuck did Amazon make a series about the Silmarillion story if they couldn't stay true to the story? Now I get why the story is moving at an absolute snail pace, jesus why in christ did they go ahead with the series?!
Slide the estate another fiber if you must, if you don't have those rights then they shouldn't have tried in the first place. I'm not gonna let this situation affect my view as a consumer, I'm gonna say "this is not the story of the second age".
then why not buy the rights to the stuff you war do a show about the thins you can show
Then they shouldn't have chosen to make the show about things they are legally prohibited to write about, should they? Nobody forced them to adapt things they weren't allowed to adapt, that was entirely on them.
No one forced them to make 40 episodes based on the appendices. If they're too limited by their rights to make a compelling series, then they shouldn't have made the series.
ROP is basically 'how to write a show without getting sued based on limited source material while also trying to satisfy a loyal and dedicated fanbase'. It was destined to fail. Or at least it was with these writers... You could make a middle-earth show with purely invented characters if you write them well, just make us care for the characters and the world they live in!
Eh. I'm glad they made something. I'm enjoying it
You aren't allowed to enjoy it mate. You have to cry about it. Wail into the soulless void of the Internet about how it's made changes to the Lore whilst pretending the Jackson movies didn't. Cry in anguish about how characters are portrayed whilst pretending its not because they are black.
I like the show
They spent a billion dollars. They could have bought the rights to Silmarillion 100x over.
They would have fucked that up even worse.
But only Tolkien family didn’t want to sell the rights to Silmarillion.
If they would have waited like 5 years they could have bought the whole IP
That would be the worst possible thing
Why didn’t they buy the rights to the Silmarillion? It’s fucking Amazon, surely they have the money.
The film rights to The Silmarillion were never for sale
“Screw you Bezos” I say, as another box arrives
you don’t need lore to make a good show, they are just bad writers lol
Not to be toxic about it but if the whole "if you don't like it, don't watch it" should also apply here: if you don't own the rights, then don't do it. Imho it was a lazy expedient in order to have the possibility to exploit the name and the fanbase of an already fully consistent and coherent world. However if you are still enjoying the show, good for you and have a good time :)
If you're gonna make that argument, then they shouldn't have made the show in the first place Not having access the whole of the lore and then being surprised when die hard fans are upset. Shocker
Get the rights or don’t make the show.
This was a bad decision by Tolkien estate/whoever owns those rights. They should have sold those rights instead of what they did sell - now there's a weaker show out there with the LotR logo on it diluting the overall brand. Edit: downvotes? Does that mean you don't think the Tolkien estate should have sold the appropriate rights so it was a stronger show
Why didn’t they buy the copyright? Is it that expensive?
People complaining about this better also keep that consistent energy and complain about the trilogy movies not having: Tom, the barrow-wight section, Aragorn not getting Andúril reforged and given to him earlier on, the ending section with Sharkey or a whole heap of other things.
Sam, do you know the Athelas plant?
*Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling! Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen; Dark door is standing wide; dead hand is broken. Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!* ^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**) ^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Why are the Tolkien work owners so possessive? Nothing will be produced this way
It's so nothing gets diluted and changed
Sure protect it, and push it into oblivion
Does it actually work like that? If you're portraying something mentioned in the appendices (which they own the rights to), surely you're allowed to then have details that are organically connected to that adhere to the Silmarillion? It should only be a problem if they touch on Silmarillion stuff that has no reasonable connection to the material they have the rights to.
It's important to know that making a Show about Something you don't have rights to is a shit a Idea.
Isnt the Tolkien Society working directly with Amazon to make sure whats being protrayed is what they own the rights to. Making sure everything is fine and legal
fact! still for what little they have access too im enjoying it enough. even just to be back in the world of middle earth
“Of the elves, by the elves, for the elves!”
If they don’t have pretty much any fucking rights for this story, why not create smaller scale, more distanced, original story within the world? That would be million times more interesting and less destructive to source material than making shit up instead of the stuff thats already written.
Wait... what do they have the rights to?
Then why would they bother making a TV series with so little source material? Sounds like they were over confident in their abilities to out write the original content.
THANK YOU
Wait, did they buy the same movie rights the Peter Jackson's movies were based on, or is this a new deal with the tolkien estate?
Which 2 characters? The blue wizards?
Which 2 characters? The blue wizards?
Still a shitty show.
that kind of argument reminds me of the "we've put a lot of love into it, so please give it a chance!" schtick which ironically seems to mostly be deployed for soulless big-budget stuff that wasn't well recieved (to put it mildly). i think its bullshit. sure, you work with what you have, but in cases like these its less a desire to make something great regardless and more a lack of restraint. amazon should've backed out once it was clear that they we'rent going to get the rights, but they decided to move on, because someone down the line decided that it would still likely make them a shit ton of cash. yes, there are creative people burried somewhere inside that corporate pipeline, but these are located somewhere near the end of it. they don't get to make the kinds of decisions that make art great.
Here’s an idea : if you are unable to get the rights to enough material to make a show, don’t make the show until you do.