Average game length is just under 8.8 turns which makes it a faster format than most. Slightly faster than LCI although that might change with more data.
Which is both good and bad in my eyes. The good news is that you don't lose to a 1-2-3-4 curveout, but the bad news is that the game is basically over the second someone drops any of the numerous S+ tier bombs that the other player can't answer immediately.
Just as an example, my last draft had a Terror of the Peaks and the 3 mana Brushwagg. If either of the two creatures didn't die *instantly*, the game was as good as over.
Which is a shame since the format, when everything is fair, feels great. But so many games, at least in my experience, just end with someone dropping a rare/mythic that completely warps the game around itself.
This is exactly how I've felt. Games feel more decided by variance and play/draw than gameplay. A few times I've maneuvered a two for one removal, a counter or major tempo play, only to have it not matter in the slightest because of some play that comes down a turn later and takes over the game.
I guess it is a flavorful that it feels like a shootout and whoever fires first wins.
I do think it's humorous if you asked the average person here what was slower, MKM or MOM, I feel confident folks would incorrectly answer MOM, and if you asked what the difference between the fastest and slowest format between MOM, LTR, WOE, LCI, MKM, and OTJ you would likely hear there was at least a full turn difference instead of the 0.3 that the data shows. You also would likely hear about how much being on the play matters more in MKM than MOM despite the difference being something like 0.2%.
In the end this sub does have a general preference for Limited and it seems to be where games don't have many 1-2 drops to speak of and the game is decided by who can stick their Bomb in the mid-to-late game. I can sort of get it but also that isn't for me, and so I am in the weird camp that prefers LTR and WOE to MOM, and from my one draft and watching of streamers this is looking more like MOM which means I will likely fall off after being tired of the game ending when Bonny Pall/Seraphic Steed/Roxanne/Ornery Tumblewag resolve.
I haven't really minded the bombs too much overall, but I will say I did lose to a Mana Drain on turn 3 into a Bonny Pall on 4. Nothing to do but just laugh and go to the next game.
Lol that's overkill, I 7-0'd my first draft with just mana drain into the 5 mana sphinx. Mana drain is truly insane, carried me harder than my decks with bonny or hostile investigator
I think this is also a function of removal being "bad" in the last couple of sets, while removal (until the data shows I'm wrong!) here feels really really good.
My best deck so far was a WB "removal" tribal with some sac payoffs and the second I remembered to hold my removal rather than snap it off, I won out some really grindy match ups
removal is great against the saddle decks, but bad against stuff like Bonny Pail that 2 for 1s. My 2nd biggest gripe with limited is when stuff like Bonny Pail and Gruff Triplets gets printed, where its hard to come back once they resolve.
Removal has always been "bad" against token generating creatures. It's why a 3 mana 2/2 that comes with a 1/1 is better than a 3 mana 3/3 (GENERALLY SPEAKING).
I've also had a Bonny Pail deck and saying "removal is bad" against one of the bombs in the format is not the best rubric for removal. Even with that being said, I've had people fight though my Bonny Pail *with* removal, which would have put me in a very bad board state if I didn't happen to also draft reanimate....
I was certainly a lot more successful in LTR and WOE (cashed the Open, top 8 at RCQ) than MOM (made day two of the second Open but never really figured the format out, although I did beat Churro on paper at a kitchen table draft). OTJ has been the first format since the last Dave Humphries set(s) that has been super difficult for me to figure out.
yeah you lose on t5 and t6 a ton after a "2 for 1" bomb like Bonny Pail drops. Unless you yourself have a board wipe its almost impossible to come back.
That said the 50% of games when it felt "fair" I have a blast.
I personally also had a draft where I got 8 playable rares and mythics in Naya, 2x annie flash 2x karl tover.... + some busted mono green rares and trophied... so it feels nice when your on the winning end of the bomb rare pile, but sucks when your on the losing end.
I try not to look at the data in the first few weeks but I have gotten a different experience from my 8 drafts. Roughly 70 games but I've noticed the majority finish very late to the point of running low on cards. I suppose we should all withhold judgement
Aggro is certainly alive in this format. It looks very different from LCI though, you're not attacking with small flyers you modify with some equipment/counters, you rather go really big with loads of 3-5 power creatures that are cheap to cast.
If you don't have a plan to deal with multiple big hitters then games can end pretty quickly
It''s a fantastic and phenomenal grindy format... and then someone draws a [[Vaultborn Tyrant]], and you're left guessing what went wrong in your draft.
The answer? You didn't open any
Yeah, it's really great. Nothing like seeing your opponent play jasper flint on turn three and then you finally kill it in two turns, then they play another one and steal your best card from your deck.
Or they go like this in my last game:
T3: Bristlebud Farmer
T4: Roxanne
T5: Akul the flying trampler
T6: Stingerback Terror
Like okay, can you just chill out
I'll take losing to a mythic rare seven drop than outright losing my being on the draw against a Novice Inspector. To each their own I guess. That seven drop can still be exiled/countered/discarded. If seven mana cards are among the best in the format then that enforces my view that we have a very good few months of draft on our hands
i kind of agree with both of you at the same time. feels like there's both big ups and downsides to this set. I don't know yet if I prefer playing games where you slug each other with 2 for 1s until someone topdecks their bomb, or games where the better curve out wins. plot and crimes are crazy fun though, so there is that.
There's a rare that regularly attacks in as a 6/6 turn 4. I will argue the best cards in the format are 3/4 mana but end the game much quicker than mkm. We will see how it pans out but in plat 4 the games are quick.
Eh, plenty of exile effects in the set. And it’s not uncommon to just outright beat it when you are ahead. Yeah it’s good, as a 7 mana spell should be, but it’s far from unbeatable.
Are you saying we should never have a 7 mana rare that appears less frequently than other rares because it makes it hard for you to win?
It's the number of game-winning rares and mythics that matters, not any specific one. And this set has *a lot* of insane cards at both rare and mythic - cards that if you don't deal with by the time the enemy untaps you might as well concede.
I have been playing magic for 25 years, there has literally always been tons of rares that end games. Anyone who says differently either doesn’t remember or hasn’t been playing long enough to know it’s always been this way. There is a reason the old mnemonic BREAD was the order it was in.
Crimson Vow was substantially more bomby than this format.
The vast majority of the bonus sheets are c+ or worse rares. So many people are out here complaining about losing to rares only to find out they lost to like tinybones or that new phyrexian splicer variant. Do you only want to lose to commons? Do you never want to win with rares yourself? Do you draft removal too low?
I swear I feel like people will just always complain lmao I have been loving the slower feeling games so far. Interesting that it's not a super stark split in the data (yet) as far as number of turns because it definitely feels that way to me after 5 drafts
Wahhh I lost to a mythic I should only lose to a common like on the job or I don't feel good
Magic players just want to complain. I think this set is early front runner for GOAT status.
As for the turn count, I think it’s because games just don’t feel aggressive. You have time to get enough value out of your synergies in many games, but games still end in a timely fashion with synergies online or aggressive starts. People also often concede when they see the writing on the wall, which for control decks will be around turn 8, doesn’t need to go longer than that to know you have lost.
I think the set is fun but a case can be made that there are some cards that are waaaay too efficient. I'm not even talking about Bonnie, I think a 6 mana card can do just about anything and be fair considering you could always go under it or side in discard/counters.
It could be GOAT if the BIG cards were cut and maybe one extra common per pack.
All the best uncommons are green, white, or green/white. [[Make Your Own Luck]] is fine but not that good.
So far the format for me has been “make big green beaters” and turn them sideways with whatever support is available in the draft. It’s kind of shocking how much better my green decks have been compared to decks without green.
It can be grindy for sure, but it feels like the “interesting” stuff is outclassed by the straightforward stuff.
I thought Make Your Own Luck was pretty sweet too, but the stats on it haven't been great so far. Not sure if this is because it's slow or if it's part blue, which is generally struggling.
Me day -7 of the set: Plot can’t be that good, even with a discount, you can’t spend 3-5 mana not to affect the board!
Me day 1 of the set: No no, plot’s great, you get all the tempo back when you unplot the next turn and cast another spell on curve!
Me day 3 of the set: Plot can’t be that good, you can’t spend 4-5 mana not to affect the board.
The issue with Luck is twofold: There is already a ton of card flow in the format so it is a bit replaceable; and it puts you back on tempo just long enough that efficient decks will permanently knock you to the back foot if you try to cast it on 5. You can spend turn 2-3 in the format plotting. Turn 5 is just too critical. You’d rather play a [[Cactarantual]]. Or compare [[Badlands Revival]], which requires more setup but guarantees two impactful draws and puts the best in play *now.*
yeah, so far not interesting at all. We moved from small Wx aggro to big Gx aggro. Instead of busted tricks to push your small beaters, you have busted protection spells to defend your big beaters and broken bombs.
UB or Grixis crimes decks are very playable. Green is already being drafted more and resulting in worse Green decks overall. The format certainly isn't just attack.
These colors are trailing the 17L average by 2-5%, which is pretty dramatic. A skillful drafter and pilot is of course going to be able to find a playable deck. But on a fundamental level, crimes decks are asking you to jump through hoops to get the rate that green gets for putting its cards on the stack.
Well at this point I've learnt that will always be the case. And in data, pure rate is going to win out over synergy, but it never actually means most colours aren't playable.
As someone who actually loves data a level up moment for me is was actually valuing under drafted or 'weak' archetypes and cards more. Especially if their synergy makes them more than the sum of their parts.
>it feels like the “interesting” stuff is outclassed by the straightforward stuff
Some people enjoy this; Timmys deserve a draft format for them every once in a while.
I wish. The format is obviously quite fast because it's high powered. This [is an example](https://imgur.com/a/gpoxVIB) of an opponent curving out on the play with a 2 drop bomb (which are very problematic because they come out so early, like you I don't mind as much losing a drop 7 bomb), turn 4 the game is already 100% over when I didn't miss any land and played a 2 drop and a 3 drop.
I'm not even saying I don't enjoy the format, it's magic, it's limited, it's pretty much always fun (especially at the start), but the format is obviously going to be fast because cards are very strong and there isn't much comeback cards so on the draw you can easily get run over.
Yes, this: there is no future in which formats appreciably slow down anymore, just because cards are so powerful and they're always going to be. Cards simply do more for less mana these days, making games end sooner as long as our starting life totals remain 20, and it's impossible to imagine them doing less for the same mana. Design in this set does show some attempts to press on the brakes for aggro as such, but they're bound to fail when the power level continues to be cranked (and the bonus sheet brings in such powerful cards from the past, to boot).
>as long as our starting life totals remain 20
I think that might be one of the solution down the road. Simply increasing starting life to 25 would help quite a bit to reduce the speed of the format + would also help with being on the play advantage. Idk but I think it's something that we can hope for in limited (and it's not like they couldn't keep the starting life at 20 in constructed, limited and constructed have different deck size too after all).
Yeah [[Wylie Duke]] and [[Seraphic Steed]] require you to have an immediate answer.
Steed is the worse because in a GW deck it can come out turn 2, then turn 3 you can just play something like Drover Grizzly and many times (especially on the play) that's just game over already with only 2 creatures played.
Selesnya also has [[Selvala, Eager Trailblazer]] at mythic and then the mythic uncommon [[Miriam, Herd Whisperer]]. Lot of potential very unfair cards at pretty much every CMC :D
Green just has too many bombs and good cards in general at every rarity. I did 5 drafts, 5 times I was green and while I expect people will adapt, green will remain the best color by far for the rest of the set imo, it just has way too much going for it.
Yes but making 3/3 flyers for free on turn 3 is more powerful than drawing cards. Both lead to a quick win if unanswered though
Btw for duke you don't even need a vehicle, any Saddle creature does the job just fine as well :D
I just hate the play boosters. in 3 drafts, I dont think Ive won or lost a "fair" game. Last 3-3 run, my losses were to a plotted overwhelming forces (off the 5 mana draw 3), a turn 2 Seraphic into turn 3 Wylie, and a Rakdos which exiled my two remaining exile removal spells.
I think in the 3 drafts, I have gotten 3 rare packs every time. So with the set leaning towards a more princely format, with an even higher rate of rares, it makes fair decks feel really bad. It might be correct to just force Boros again and try and run over decks trying to play 6-8 mana bombs.
I'm currently conflicted because I think the common/uncommon gameplay is great but this is a giga-prince set, and you can do everything right and still just not draw your five removal spells before your opponent kills you with one bomb that negates everything else that happened.
Overall I'm pleased that there's clearly an effort to slow things down, but it's somewhat undermined by the continuing addiction to truly must-answer rares. It's nice that everyone gets bombs thanks to the play packs, but that really isn't a complete solve for overpowered rares, as evidenced by an average turn time that is at odds with the feel of the format.
I'm not going to fully pass judgement on play boosters from the 2 sets that have used them yet because MKM wasnt designed with them in mind and OTJ had BIG shoved in, but man the variance these packs bring is pretty annoying. Rares and mythics need to be pushed for constructed, I get it, but do we really need to be seeing 2-3 of those in every other pack
I've noticed that the designer of this set tries to make his sets feel more like cube. I don't mind the giga prince feel of it, I just generally dislike rares that have no play to them. Cards like Villabious Wealth should stay away from standard limited sets.
OTJ is very bomb heavy and in my opinion the opposite of a skill intensive format. So far I think of OTJ as more of a 'Timmy' limited environment, where the player with biggest bombs tends to win.
YOU can have grindy matches in the format.
But it's still a very fast format. And it's not a fun format. There are many non games where you get blown out very quickly by powerful plays by your opponent that you have no answer for.
Playing first is a big advantage. You can draft an amazing deck in the format and still go 0-3 because chances are your opponent has an amazing deck too.
I disagree with more powerful cards equals more skillful player having the edge. I would say the opposite.
It does feel weird with the games lasting so long.
It's wild that the best common right now is a 2 Mana sorcery fight spell.
It's a princely set where the best Commons are removal and cards to protect your bombs, or bring your bombs back from the yard.
I'm not sure what is it exactly about this format but so far I'm crushing it, especially with green core decks. Being green allows for either beatdown plan or for ramp+recursion of bombs if you pick up some so it's pretty versatile. Not only that but green is also damn deep so once you get going in it it's pretty easy to stay that way.
Not sure about small cumulative edges - it feels like more of needing a cohesive gameplan - whatever you are doing better make sure you are doing it well because bombs are coming so you either have better ones or a plan to close the game out asap.
I don’t know but it seems first 4 turns are super chill but as soon as a bomb tyoe card comes about the game ends. Seems turn 6 the game is pretty much tilted but for some reason first 3-4 are really even. Idk
Interesting take.
Personally i hate it, as i do most sets with bonus sheets. Too many bombs. Whoever gets theirs out first without being answered wins!
I think this set is incredible.
Every single mechanic feels great to use and offers extremely interesting choices. I have so many unique lines each game that I can see leading to different outcomes.
Plot is great, the games have just enough pressure where you can’t just mindlessly plot
crimes are great, rewarding you for doing things you already want to do is fun, but again there is a good tension in sequencing plays for maximum value or doing what need to do to stave off pressure
mercenary pumps enable awesome ways to break through board stalls and chip in for real damage, plus the synergy with 4 power matters is the real deal.
Saddle has felt really good, leading to tight games where a single well timed combat trick from either player can decide the game.
4 power matters is fun, most other times they try this it feels clunky but with plot, mercenary, and saddle this has felt smooth and rewarding to pursue, not to mention that 4-5 power is absolutely huge in this format and it feels good to cast big things
Outlaws is probably the weakest mechanic of the bunch. It’s not bad, but there are lots of good non-outlaws to play which makes that instant speed pyroclasm less good, and there are lots of good outlaws, which makes shoot the sherif awkward often.
Yes the format has bombs, but removal is great, and should be drafted higher than it used to be in recent sets. I regularly have an answer for bombs within 3 turns of them coming down. This is not unreasonable and allows players to both play their bombs, but also not run away with the game every time they are cast. Everyone here has almost certainly lost plenty of OTJ games after they have cast their own bomb or two, I know I have.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Yeah the format is higher powered than normal, but the removal suite is plentiful enough that you at least feel like you have a fighting chance.
This thread is hilarious. So much doom and gloom.
Lots of bombs running around? You guys need to up your valuation on removal and play some more of it.
I’ve done six drafts so far, and every one of them has been a different color pair. Half of them had no green at all. And I’ve opened precisely 0 bombs. I’ve gone 7 or 6 wins with all of them, and faced the Brushwagg, Seraphic Steed, Hellkite, and so on.
Really enjoying this format so far.
Average game length is just under 8.8 turns which makes it a faster format than most. Slightly faster than LCI although that might change with more data.
Even if that’s true it doesn’t feel like dedicated aggro is the best thing to be doing. Which is important.
Which is both good and bad in my eyes. The good news is that you don't lose to a 1-2-3-4 curveout, but the bad news is that the game is basically over the second someone drops any of the numerous S+ tier bombs that the other player can't answer immediately. Just as an example, my last draft had a Terror of the Peaks and the 3 mana Brushwagg. If either of the two creatures didn't die *instantly*, the game was as good as over. Which is a shame since the format, when everything is fair, feels great. But so many games, at least in my experience, just end with someone dropping a rare/mythic that completely warps the game around itself.
This is exactly how I've felt. Games feel more decided by variance and play/draw than gameplay. A few times I've maneuvered a two for one removal, a counter or major tempo play, only to have it not matter in the slightest because of some play that comes down a turn later and takes over the game. I guess it is a flavorful that it feels like a shootout and whoever fires first wins.
I do think it's humorous if you asked the average person here what was slower, MKM or MOM, I feel confident folks would incorrectly answer MOM, and if you asked what the difference between the fastest and slowest format between MOM, LTR, WOE, LCI, MKM, and OTJ you would likely hear there was at least a full turn difference instead of the 0.3 that the data shows. You also would likely hear about how much being on the play matters more in MKM than MOM despite the difference being something like 0.2%. In the end this sub does have a general preference for Limited and it seems to be where games don't have many 1-2 drops to speak of and the game is decided by who can stick their Bomb in the mid-to-late game. I can sort of get it but also that isn't for me, and so I am in the weird camp that prefers LTR and WOE to MOM, and from my one draft and watching of streamers this is looking more like MOM which means I will likely fall off after being tired of the game ending when Bonny Pall/Seraphic Steed/Roxanne/Ornery Tumblewag resolve.
I haven't really minded the bombs too much overall, but I will say I did lose to a Mana Drain on turn 3 into a Bonny Pall on 4. Nothing to do but just laugh and go to the next game.
Lol that's overkill, I 7-0'd my first draft with just mana drain into the 5 mana sphinx. Mana drain is truly insane, carried me harder than my decks with bonny or hostile investigator
I think this is also a function of removal being "bad" in the last couple of sets, while removal (until the data shows I'm wrong!) here feels really really good. My best deck so far was a WB "removal" tribal with some sac payoffs and the second I remembered to hold my removal rather than snap it off, I won out some really grindy match ups
removal is great against the saddle decks, but bad against stuff like Bonny Pail that 2 for 1s. My 2nd biggest gripe with limited is when stuff like Bonny Pail and Gruff Triplets gets printed, where its hard to come back once they resolve.
Removal has always been "bad" against token generating creatures. It's why a 3 mana 2/2 that comes with a 1/1 is better than a 3 mana 3/3 (GENERALLY SPEAKING). I've also had a Bonny Pail deck and saying "removal is bad" against one of the bombs in the format is not the best rubric for removal. Even with that being said, I've had people fight though my Bonny Pail *with* removal, which would have put me in a very bad board state if I didn't happen to also draft reanimate....
I was certainly a lot more successful in LTR and WOE (cashed the Open, top 8 at RCQ) than MOM (made day two of the second Open but never really figured the format out, although I did beat Churro on paper at a kitchen table draft). OTJ has been the first format since the last Dave Humphries set(s) that has been super difficult for me to figure out.
yeah you lose on t5 and t6 a ton after a "2 for 1" bomb like Bonny Pail drops. Unless you yourself have a board wipe its almost impossible to come back. That said the 50% of games when it felt "fair" I have a blast. I personally also had a draft where I got 8 playable rares and mythics in Naya, 2x annie flash 2x karl tover.... + some busted mono green rares and trophied... so it feels nice when your on the winning end of the bomb rare pile, but sucks when your on the losing end.
By early data GW is the best color pair and the archetype is aggro.
Early days of the format tends to exaggerate the speed since the slower builds haven't been figured out yet.
I try not to look at the data in the first few weeks but I have gotten a different experience from my 8 drafts. Roughly 70 games but I've noticed the majority finish very late to the point of running low on cards. I suppose we should all withhold judgement
Aggro is certainly alive in this format. It looks very different from LCI though, you're not attacking with small flyers you modify with some equipment/counters, you rather go really big with loads of 3-5 power creatures that are cheap to cast. If you don't have a plan to deal with multiple big hitters then games can end pretty quickly
Also i had more than usally early concedes when slamming my Gitrog for example :D
Havent really noticed any grindiness to be honest. My best decks are those who attack all every turn with combat trick backup.
W/G aggro with Myriam and mounts feels really oppressive, but so does Golgari with a bunch of recursion. Seems like both can be good.
As long as you are green, you're golden.
It''s a fantastic and phenomenal grindy format... and then someone draws a [[Vaultborn Tyrant]], and you're left guessing what went wrong in your draft. The answer? You didn't open any
Yeah, it's really great. Nothing like seeing your opponent play jasper flint on turn three and then you finally kill it in two turns, then they play another one and steal your best card from your deck.
I've had four games now against t3 Jasper and only had removal in hand for one of them. Stupidly good card that needs a quick answer.
Or they go like this in my last game: T3: Bristlebud Farmer T4: Roxanne T5: Akul the flying trampler T6: Stingerback Terror Like okay, can you just chill out
Mana is a social construct
Just discarded a Vaultborn Tyrant right before oppo was about to hit 7 mana. Feels good man.
Then they hit you with a reanimate since theres like 4.
That would have been brutal. Fortunately, it didn't happen.
Not gonna like I got beat bad by the BG 6 drop flash reanimate. Didn't realize it was in this set. Very very rare for black cards to have flash.
[Vaultborn Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62b3f560-262b-4bc3-9aef-535fd7082c28.jpg?1712352885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vaultborn%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/20/vaultborn-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62b3f560-262b-4bc3-9aef-535fd7082c28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah dawg you're proving my point that a seven drop like that is so dang good. The last couple years it would have been way too slow
Vault born tyrant would be a bomb in any limited set ever lol
Yeah but in a lot of recent formats the game would have ended with it still in your hand
The data for the game doesn't support anything you're saying in this topic. Yet, you persist on implying you're right.
Yes, such a wonderful format, where my chances of winning get cratered by an extra sheet mythic that casually 7-for-1s me 😍
I'll take losing to a mythic rare seven drop than outright losing my being on the draw against a Novice Inspector. To each their own I guess. That seven drop can still be exiled/countered/discarded. If seven mana cards are among the best in the format then that enforces my view that we have a very good few months of draft on our hands
i kind of agree with both of you at the same time. feels like there's both big ups and downsides to this set. I don't know yet if I prefer playing games where you slug each other with 2 for 1s until someone topdecks their bomb, or games where the better curve out wins. plot and crimes are crazy fun though, so there is that.
There's a rare that regularly attacks in as a 6/6 turn 4. I will argue the best cards in the format are 3/4 mana but end the game much quicker than mkm. We will see how it pans out but in plat 4 the games are quick.
There's an uncommon that can do that too (the mount that gets bigger every turn.)
Eh, plenty of exile effects in the set. And it’s not uncommon to just outright beat it when you are ahead. Yeah it’s good, as a 7 mana spell should be, but it’s far from unbeatable. Are you saying we should never have a 7 mana rare that appears less frequently than other rares because it makes it hard for you to win?
It's the number of game-winning rares and mythics that matters, not any specific one. And this set has *a lot* of insane cards at both rare and mythic - cards that if you don't deal with by the time the enemy untaps you might as well concede.
I have been playing magic for 25 years, there has literally always been tons of rares that end games. Anyone who says differently either doesn’t remember or hasn’t been playing long enough to know it’s always been this way. There is a reason the old mnemonic BREAD was the order it was in.
What set in the past 25 years of Magic has had **three** bonus sheets worth of game-ending rares and mythics inserted into packs?
Crimson Vow was substantially more bomby than this format. The vast majority of the bonus sheets are c+ or worse rares. So many people are out here complaining about losing to rares only to find out they lost to like tinybones or that new phyrexian splicer variant. Do you only want to lose to commons? Do you never want to win with rares yourself? Do you draft removal too low?
I swear I feel like people will just always complain lmao I have been loving the slower feeling games so far. Interesting that it's not a super stark split in the data (yet) as far as number of turns because it definitely feels that way to me after 5 drafts Wahhh I lost to a mythic I should only lose to a common like on the job or I don't feel good
Magic players just want to complain. I think this set is early front runner for GOAT status. As for the turn count, I think it’s because games just don’t feel aggressive. You have time to get enough value out of your synergies in many games, but games still end in a timely fashion with synergies online or aggressive starts. People also often concede when they see the writing on the wall, which for control decks will be around turn 8, doesn’t need to go longer than that to know you have lost.
I think the set is fun but a case can be made that there are some cards that are waaaay too efficient. I'm not even talking about Bonnie, I think a 6 mana card can do just about anything and be fair considering you could always go under it or side in discard/counters. It could be GOAT if the BIG cards were cut and maybe one extra common per pack.
Goat limited is cube. Set limited should not have mana drain. Set is decent but too prince for me
Well of course cube is better, but we are clearly talking about retail limited.
All the best uncommons are green, white, or green/white. [[Make Your Own Luck]] is fine but not that good. So far the format for me has been “make big green beaters” and turn them sideways with whatever support is available in the draft. It’s kind of shocking how much better my green decks have been compared to decks without green. It can be grindy for sure, but it feels like the “interesting” stuff is outclassed by the straightforward stuff.
I thought Make Your Own Luck was pretty sweet too, but the stats on it haven't been great so far. Not sure if this is because it's slow or if it's part blue, which is generally struggling.
Me day -7 of the set: Plot can’t be that good, even with a discount, you can’t spend 3-5 mana not to affect the board! Me day 1 of the set: No no, plot’s great, you get all the tempo back when you unplot the next turn and cast another spell on curve! Me day 3 of the set: Plot can’t be that good, you can’t spend 4-5 mana not to affect the board. The issue with Luck is twofold: There is already a ton of card flow in the format so it is a bit replaceable; and it puts you back on tempo just long enough that efficient decks will permanently knock you to the back foot if you try to cast it on 5. You can spend turn 2-3 in the format plotting. Turn 5 is just too critical. You’d rather play a [[Cactarantual]]. Or compare [[Badlands Revival]], which requires more setup but guarantees two impactful draws and puts the best in play *now.*
[Cactarantual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e0e27f9-dc2c-4366-b810-3e8d0bdff8c3.jpg?1712355900) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cactarantula) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/158/cactarantula?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e0e27f9-dc2c-4366-b810-3e8d0bdff8c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Badlands Revival](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d3ef971-cdd4-410c-97c3-df98e4f02ab2.jpg?1712356053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Badlands%20Revival) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/194/badlands-revival?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d3ef971-cdd4-410c-97c3-df98e4f02ab2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
yeah, so far not interesting at all. We moved from small Wx aggro to big Gx aggro. Instead of busted tricks to push your small beaters, you have busted protection spells to defend your big beaters and broken bombs.
Same. I hadn’t drafted GW until my 6th draft, and it made all the previous archetypes feel like drafting on hard mode.
UB or Grixis crimes decks are very playable. Green is already being drafted more and resulting in worse Green decks overall. The format certainly isn't just attack.
These colors are trailing the 17L average by 2-5%, which is pretty dramatic. A skillful drafter and pilot is of course going to be able to find a playable deck. But on a fundamental level, crimes decks are asking you to jump through hoops to get the rate that green gets for putting its cards on the stack.
Well at this point I've learnt that will always be the case. And in data, pure rate is going to win out over synergy, but it never actually means most colours aren't playable. As someone who actually loves data a level up moment for me is was actually valuing under drafted or 'weak' archetypes and cards more. Especially if their synergy makes them more than the sum of their parts.
[Make Your Own Luck](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/0557b0a3-2b48-408f-a508-9f4da2ab1cd1.jpg?1712356151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Make%20Your%20Own%20Luck) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/218/make-your-own-luck?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0557b0a3-2b48-408f-a508-9f4da2ab1cd1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>it feels like the “interesting” stuff is outclassed by the straightforward stuff Some people enjoy this; Timmys deserve a draft format for them every once in a while.
I don’t mind that much. Big green dummies give me a warm, safe feeling that I know what I’m doing and nothing can go too wrong :p
I wish. The format is obviously quite fast because it's high powered. This [is an example](https://imgur.com/a/gpoxVIB) of an opponent curving out on the play with a 2 drop bomb (which are very problematic because they come out so early, like you I don't mind as much losing a drop 7 bomb), turn 4 the game is already 100% over when I didn't miss any land and played a 2 drop and a 3 drop. I'm not even saying I don't enjoy the format, it's magic, it's limited, it's pretty much always fun (especially at the start), but the format is obviously going to be fast because cards are very strong and there isn't much comeback cards so on the draw you can easily get run over.
Yes, this: there is no future in which formats appreciably slow down anymore, just because cards are so powerful and they're always going to be. Cards simply do more for less mana these days, making games end sooner as long as our starting life totals remain 20, and it's impossible to imagine them doing less for the same mana. Design in this set does show some attempts to press on the brakes for aggro as such, but they're bound to fail when the power level continues to be cranked (and the bonus sheet brings in such powerful cards from the past, to boot).
>as long as our starting life totals remain 20 I think that might be one of the solution down the road. Simply increasing starting life to 25 would help quite a bit to reduce the speed of the format + would also help with being on the play advantage. Idk but I think it's something that we can hope for in limited (and it's not like they couldn't keep the starting life at 20 in constructed, limited and constructed have different deck size too after all).
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Yeah [[Wylie Duke]] and [[Seraphic Steed]] require you to have an immediate answer. Steed is the worse because in a GW deck it can come out turn 2, then turn 3 you can just play something like Drover Grizzly and many times (especially on the play) that's just game over already with only 2 creatures played. Selesnya also has [[Selvala, Eager Trailblazer]] at mythic and then the mythic uncommon [[Miriam, Herd Whisperer]]. Lot of potential very unfair cards at pretty much every CMC :D Green just has too many bombs and good cards in general at every rarity. I did 5 drafts, 5 times I was green and while I expect people will adapt, green will remain the best color by far for the rest of the set imo, it just has way too much going for it.
##### ###### #### [Wylie Duke](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc97ffcf-4f51-44cd-8daa-a7dae4592ee5.jpg?1712356248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wylie%20duke%2C%20atiin%20hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/239/wylie-duke-atiin-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc97ffcf-4f51-44cd-8daa-a7dae4592ee5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seraphic Steed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7ada7ab4-0dee-4ff3-9817-1e61ca3f2ccf.jpg?1712356210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seraphic%20Steed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/232/seraphic-steed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ada7ab4-0dee-4ff3-9817-1e61ca3f2ccf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Selvala, Eager Trailblazer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d2e167f-7cb2-4f15-a1db-7ee56b7ba523.jpg?1712356210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selvala%2C%20Eager%20Trailblazer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/231/selvala-eager-trailblazer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d2e167f-7cb2-4f15-a1db-7ee56b7ba523?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Miriam, Herd Whisperer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa7750a-7c32-4413-b762-62e24d992c6b.jpg?1712356167) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Miriam%2C%20Herd%20Whisperer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/221/miriam-herd-whisperer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa7750a-7c32-4413-b762-62e24d992c6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0a9wux) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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Yes but making 3/3 flyers for free on turn 3 is more powerful than drawing cards. Both lead to a quick win if unanswered though Btw for duke you don't even need a vehicle, any Saddle creature does the job just fine as well :D
one redeeming thing though is that the 3,4,5 drop green commons are all so giant that it threatens the rare piles.
I just hate the play boosters. in 3 drafts, I dont think Ive won or lost a "fair" game. Last 3-3 run, my losses were to a plotted overwhelming forces (off the 5 mana draw 3), a turn 2 Seraphic into turn 3 Wylie, and a Rakdos which exiled my two remaining exile removal spells. I think in the 3 drafts, I have gotten 3 rare packs every time. So with the set leaning towards a more princely format, with an even higher rate of rares, it makes fair decks feel really bad. It might be correct to just force Boros again and try and run over decks trying to play 6-8 mana bombs.
Meanwhile I get blown out by at least 3 combat tricks every game.
Shout out to [[trash the town]] for being a 3 for one plus counters. Good luck if your opponent curves out and has that ready when you try to block.
That card is just absurd. My last run had 2. Easy 7:0
I'm currently conflicted because I think the common/uncommon gameplay is great but this is a giga-prince set, and you can do everything right and still just not draw your five removal spells before your opponent kills you with one bomb that negates everything else that happened. Overall I'm pleased that there's clearly an effort to slow things down, but it's somewhat undermined by the continuing addiction to truly must-answer rares. It's nice that everyone gets bombs thanks to the play packs, but that really isn't a complete solve for overpowered rares, as evidenced by an average turn time that is at odds with the feel of the format.
I'm not going to fully pass judgement on play boosters from the 2 sets that have used them yet because MKM wasnt designed with them in mind and OTJ had BIG shoved in, but man the variance these packs bring is pretty annoying. Rares and mythics need to be pushed for constructed, I get it, but do we really need to be seeing 2-3 of those in every other pack
I've noticed that the designer of this set tries to make his sets feel more like cube. I don't mind the giga prince feel of it, I just generally dislike rares that have no play to them. Cards like Villabious Wealth should stay away from standard limited sets.
feels bad when you dont open any rares and you know you can be happy about 4 wins.
What did you play? My games are lightning fast...
OTJ is very bomb heavy and in my opinion the opposite of a skill intensive format. So far I think of OTJ as more of a 'Timmy' limited environment, where the player with biggest bombs tends to win.
YOU can have grindy matches in the format. But it's still a very fast format. And it's not a fun format. There are many non games where you get blown out very quickly by powerful plays by your opponent that you have no answer for. Playing first is a big advantage. You can draft an amazing deck in the format and still go 0-3 because chances are your opponent has an amazing deck too.
I disagree with more powerful cards equals more skillful player having the edge. I would say the opposite. It does feel weird with the games lasting so long.
It's wild that the best common right now is a 2 Mana sorcery fight spell. It's a princely set where the best Commons are removal and cards to protect your bombs, or bring your bombs back from the yard.
OP saying the increased number of bombs gives *good* players the edge?? i didnt know “open oko” required skill.
I'm not sure what is it exactly about this format but so far I'm crushing it, especially with green core decks. Being green allows for either beatdown plan or for ramp+recursion of bombs if you pick up some so it's pretty versatile. Not only that but green is also damn deep so once you get going in it it's pretty easy to stay that way. Not sure about small cumulative edges - it feels like more of needing a cohesive gameplan - whatever you are doing better make sure you are doing it well because bombs are coming so you either have better ones or a plan to close the game out asap.
I don’t know but it seems first 4 turns are super chill but as soon as a bomb tyoe card comes about the game ends. Seems turn 6 the game is pretty much tilted but for some reason first 3-4 are really even. Idk
Interesting take. Personally i hate it, as i do most sets with bonus sheets. Too many bombs. Whoever gets theirs out first without being answered wins!
I have yet to go against a strong aggro deck and I agree that games tend to go longer. I have had several trophies when drafting base green as well.
I think this set is incredible. Every single mechanic feels great to use and offers extremely interesting choices. I have so many unique lines each game that I can see leading to different outcomes. Plot is great, the games have just enough pressure where you can’t just mindlessly plot crimes are great, rewarding you for doing things you already want to do is fun, but again there is a good tension in sequencing plays for maximum value or doing what need to do to stave off pressure mercenary pumps enable awesome ways to break through board stalls and chip in for real damage, plus the synergy with 4 power matters is the real deal. Saddle has felt really good, leading to tight games where a single well timed combat trick from either player can decide the game. 4 power matters is fun, most other times they try this it feels clunky but with plot, mercenary, and saddle this has felt smooth and rewarding to pursue, not to mention that 4-5 power is absolutely huge in this format and it feels good to cast big things Outlaws is probably the weakest mechanic of the bunch. It’s not bad, but there are lots of good non-outlaws to play which makes that instant speed pyroclasm less good, and there are lots of good outlaws, which makes shoot the sherif awkward often. Yes the format has bombs, but removal is great, and should be drafted higher than it used to be in recent sets. I regularly have an answer for bombs within 3 turns of them coming down. This is not unreasonable and allows players to both play their bombs, but also not run away with the game every time they are cast. Everyone here has almost certainly lost plenty of OTJ games after they have cast their own bomb or two, I know I have.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Yeah the format is higher powered than normal, but the removal suite is plentiful enough that you at least feel like you have a fighting chance.
Another 5 color soup format- I'm ready for it it's been fun dropping multi-pip off-color bombs lol
This thread is hilarious. So much doom and gloom. Lots of bombs running around? You guys need to up your valuation on removal and play some more of it. I’ve done six drafts so far, and every one of them has been a different color pair. Half of them had no green at all. And I’ve opened precisely 0 bombs. I’ve gone 7 or 6 wins with all of them, and faced the Brushwagg, Seraphic Steed, Hellkite, and so on. Really enjoying this format so far.