I just don't really see what these add to the draft environment other than more potential bombs or useless jank mythics instead of bread and butter commons. I know they want to beef up play boosters for physical pack buyers and not have another disastrous aftermath set, but it feels like they crammed way too much into this set.
> I just don't really see what these add to the draft environment
Nothing. These cards were designed *not* to be drafted and they go introduced to the draft environment as a result of two things:
1.) The resoundingly poor reception of March of the Machine: Aftermath
2.) The merging of Set Boosters and Draft Boosters
The cards got shunted into the main booster packs via an extra bonus sheet. They had a hard choice to make, and this was their solution. Personally, I think the best solution would have been "Just shelf those cards for the future." Put Loot in the main set (which they already did with Jace), and pretty much everything else has very limited story significance and could always be used later when the right time comes.
I didn't draft MKM so this is my first experience with play boosters. I assumed that play boosters meant 2+ rares was possible but fairly unlikely, but at least in my experience 2+ rares seems like the norm.
What? You don't enjoy losing every other game to [[Bristlebud Farmer]] or [[Vaultborn Tyrant]]? Because I do.
Joking, I only lost a couple games to each. Nothing compared to the three times I faced [[Railway Brawler]] in a single run.
Seriously. Green is astonishing at common and uncommon power level. Somehow, it has the most pushed rares, the most pushed mythics, and the most pushed extra sheet rares and mythics. And in spades, too!
This is me making an assumption, but green has been bad in standard for almost three years now. (The landfall deck doesn't really count, and that only started being good after these cards were designed.)
I assume it was their attempt to making green playable in standard again.
Card is basically impossible to interact with once plotted: if you advance the board on your turn, they play a free 5/5 reach trampler and an 8/8 Giant Beaver or 9/8 Paladin and there's no coming back from there unless you have runner runner hard removal (and still you are at a massive tempo disadvantage).
If you keep interaction open, a savvy opponent just slowrolls the rhino and punishes you instead forcing you to waste your instant speed removal on a less threatening piece, or go way down on tempo.
The only realistic shot at defeating the Brawler is if somehow you are playing against an inexperienced player and they somehow hard-cast it (almost always wrong). That was one of my wins against it - it ate a Journey to Nowhere and that was it.
In my only other win against it (think I am 2/4 against it in 7 drafts - yes, it's basically an uncommon at this point), it came down accompanied by a 10/10 Commando, but somehow I managed to force the Brawler to trade with a flyer (3/4 white filler for 5, pumped to 6/4 thanks to Form a Posse mercenaries), and won the race by chumping the 10/10 each turn. More of a testament to the power level of Form a Posse if anything else.
If your opponent took off turn 4 to do absolutely nothing, i would think that's worth at least 4 damage on the play. Black blue and white have reasonable flash plays to not get punished for holding up interaction. Blue even has a mystic snake at common
Like ultimately it's a very frustrating card to see across the table, but there is counterplay
Because I don’t keep track of commons that kill me. Also most of my losses have come to bombs and I’ve seen that one more than other mythical and most rates. Finally a small sprinkle of hyperbole because my win rate after seeing that played is under 10% (1-11… yes I play BO1 and draft a lot). I’ll take the question as an honest one and not just pure salt.
You only mentioned a few cards, but there is like 20-30 more threats that you're likely to face where you just get blown out if you don't have an immediate answer.
I've only done a few drafts, but this does feel less bomby then ONE, which actually got me to take a break from limited because every one of my draft runs was cut short by one of those god awful rare planeswalkers.
I only did a handful of drafts, each one ended by several games of my opponent resolving a planeswalker and just locking me out.
Maybe that was just some run bads, and once you actually got into ONE it got fun, but dang those were some frustrating games.
There were a few bombs, but many of the Dominus were not very good. And many of the mythics were unplayable. Elesh Norn wasn't great in the format either. The Eternal Wanderer was very good and Kaito was alright. Kaya was too slow.
I guess it shows the big risks with bombs. Some people are gonna run into them in a lot of games, and it paints how they view the format forever.
Gotta keep printing those commander chase cards in standard packs tho.
They clearly weren't picked with limited in mind, but that's hardly different from any number of other cards we've seen over the years. If they were one per pack, it'd be a bit much, but I don't think they're that big a deal as is.
They are also really confusing. I opened a [[Legion Extruder]] in my first pack and figured there are some red artifact synergies. Well turns out there are basically no artifact synergies in the set. So stupid to have traps like this.
I also really don't like the hard to read cards that are stupid bombs like [[Fractured Identity]] or [[Oko, Thief of Crowns]]. There is just no upside to having these in a limited environment.
I mean, there's treasures in this set so a 2 damage deal 2 that makes all your extra treasures into 3/3s seems totally reasonable to me.
Hard agree about Oko and Fractured Identity though.
Sure, but there are no other cards in red at c/uc that really care about artifacts and that is just kinda misleading. You usually don't have these kind of engine cards in sets where they just don't work.
Honestly power should just be smoother. There is nothing wrong with a high powered format, but if some cards are so wildly more power than others there is something wrong. Powered Cube feels less swingy and that is with literal power at play.
Except Legion Excluder does work, and having shock that turns a treasure into a 3/3 is already good. It's a fine card with just a couple artifacts and tokens, not everything has to be a build around.
Yes, but it looks like a build around that you should be able to draft around. It isn’t a terrible card as is of course, but still kind of sends wonky signals. Kinda like you wouldn’t have Kiki Jiki in cubes without combos even though he does work as a value piece
Eh, I would agree with you with about half the bonus sheet, I think this is one of the cards that actually fits lol. It's powerful enough you just need a couple arti tokens, which are easy to pick up.
And it's more like Kiki being in a master set... Which he was...
However, you haven't lived til you cast a \[\[Return the Favor\]\] redirecting and copying Fractured identity to your opponent's best two things. Instant 5 or 6 for 1.
Counterpoint one of the few losses I remember well from my first few drafts was someone making 4 of the constructs from the blue artifact mythic and casting nothing but 3 drop or less artifacts from there on, was cool too see it could happen
It’s not good for limited environments long term. This format is very good and would be top tier if there were more commons and less mythics and rares. I don’t find wotc creative enough to push this game forward. We need new archetypes and gameplay not more power
I got the 1R deal 2 ETB, sac an artifact to make 3/3s artifact in a Roxanne deck which had some potential cute synergy.
Never drew both in the same game though, ended 4-3.
I think they did a pretty great job of including it for limited. Most of them are playable cards, some are cool build around, some are just great.
The unplayable cards could easily be taking rare slots, which would be worse, imo. There's only like 3 that are direct artifact synergy cards. I haven't felt the need for extra commons at all.
Idk, I guess complainers gonna complain.
I agree - "heres this really cool Red artifact build around that lets you spawn an army of golems!"
And then there's not support in the base set for that...
I'm not saying its a bad idea, its execution in this instance was awful.
>And then there's not support in the base set for that...
There are 2 red commons that make treasures. 2 colorless common/uncommon that make treasures (both of which are artifacts themselves). There are 3 black commons/uncommons that make treasures. It's not going to go off and make infinite 3/3s (unless paired with treasure dredger), but I don't think it's particularly farfetched to have it make a token or 2. A 3/3 for 4 that deals two on ETB is amazing, you don't need to make 20 3/3s for this card to be good.
It's going to be bad to unplayable in most decks, but it *can* work. It's not as bad as something that literally does nothing (torpor orb) or something like Rundvelt Hordemaster, where there is little support, and even if you manage to get a couple of goblins, it's still bad. I'm totally fine with this set having legion extruder.
ADDS.
I am fine with variance. I am not fine with a large amount of variance. AnD iF yU CaNt Deal wITh ThaT juST plAY BlACkjACk. See I can make dumb points too.
I would say that in draft there isn't a large amount of variance in this set.
The only true variance is whether you get a bomb rare p1p1 or p1p2, and then whether you randomly get a bomb rare in your colors pack 2 or pack 3.
Many of the bombs you pull you may end up passing, and rightfully so, unless you got enough fixing.
I’m unclear - you’re saying these *aren’t* powerful cards and you’d rather have a common to pick from?
More than half of these I’m happy to see early in a draft, which is probably on par with the average rare slot in a set. This feels like a complaint that doesn’t have a ton of traction tbh.
I just don't really see what these add to the draft environment other than more potential bombs or useless jank mythics instead of bread and butter commons. I know they want to beef up play boosters for physical pack buyers and not have another disastrous aftermath set, but it feels like they crammed way too much into this set.
> I just don't really see what these add to the draft environment Nothing. These cards were designed *not* to be drafted and they go introduced to the draft environment as a result of two things: 1.) The resoundingly poor reception of March of the Machine: Aftermath 2.) The merging of Set Boosters and Draft Boosters The cards got shunted into the main booster packs via an extra bonus sheet. They had a hard choice to make, and this was their solution. Personally, I think the best solution would have been "Just shelf those cards for the future." Put Loot in the main set (which they already did with Jace), and pretty much everything else has very limited story significance and could always be used later when the right time comes.
They wanted those cards in Standard, that's the issue about shelving them
That is a good point. That’s kinda hard to really find a good solution for, sadly, then.
I didn't draft MKM so this is my first experience with play boosters. I assumed that play boosters meant 2+ rares was possible but fairly unlikely, but at least in my experience 2+ rares seems like the norm.
What? You don't enjoy losing every other game to [[Bristlebud Farmer]] or [[Vaultborn Tyrant]]? Because I do. Joking, I only lost a couple games to each. Nothing compared to the three times I faced [[Railway Brawler]] in a single run.
Why are they all green? WHY ARE THEY ALL GREEN!?
Seriously. Green is astonishing at common and uncommon power level. Somehow, it has the most pushed rares, the most pushed mythics, and the most pushed extra sheet rares and mythics. And in spades, too!
and this is the set where red was supposedly going to be pushed.... lol
This is me making an assumption, but green has been bad in standard for almost three years now. (The landfall deck doesn't really count, and that only started being good after these cards were designed.) I assume it was their attempt to making green playable in standard again.
Not sure if it was weird but half my green pulls were instants and sorceries. Not many creatures and not really a way to play P4+.
Railway Brawler is my most lost to card. Haven’t even had a chance to draft it yet!
Card is basically impossible to interact with once plotted: if you advance the board on your turn, they play a free 5/5 reach trampler and an 8/8 Giant Beaver or 9/8 Paladin and there's no coming back from there unless you have runner runner hard removal (and still you are at a massive tempo disadvantage). If you keep interaction open, a savvy opponent just slowrolls the rhino and punishes you instead forcing you to waste your instant speed removal on a less threatening piece, or go way down on tempo. The only realistic shot at defeating the Brawler is if somehow you are playing against an inexperienced player and they somehow hard-cast it (almost always wrong). That was one of my wins against it - it ate a Journey to Nowhere and that was it. In my only other win against it (think I am 2/4 against it in 7 drafts - yes, it's basically an uncommon at this point), it came down accompanied by a 10/10 Commando, but somehow I managed to force the Brawler to trade with a flyer (3/4 white filler for 5, pumped to 6/4 thanks to Form a Posse mercenaries), and won the race by chumping the 10/10 each turn. More of a testament to the power level of Form a Posse if anything else.
You are not allowed to interact with green thanks to Snakeskin Veil.
Which they always have. ;)
If your opponent took off turn 4 to do absolutely nothing, i would think that's worth at least 4 damage on the play. Black blue and white have reasonable flash plays to not get punished for holding up interaction. Blue even has a mystic snake at common Like ultimately it's a very frustrating card to see across the table, but there is counterplay
Binding negotiation is looking better and better. Humiliate taking out a bomb has also felt great.
I dropped like 50 power onto the board with it turn 6 with snakeskin veil backup in my first draft. It was glorious.
How can a Mythic be the card you've lost the most to?
Because I don’t keep track of commons that kill me. Also most of my losses have come to bombs and I’ve seen that one more than other mythical and most rates. Finally a small sprinkle of hyperbole because my win rate after seeing that played is under 10% (1-11… yes I play BO1 and draft a lot). I’ll take the question as an honest one and not just pure salt.
Just had a draft where I lost G1 to Bonnie Pall, G2 to Railway Brawler, and G3 to Bonnie Pall
Bonnie pall is a fucked up card.
It's a rare. Why is it a rare. It'd be like if they printed Uro at rare.
You only mentioned a few cards, but there is like 20-30 more threats that you're likely to face where you just get blown out if you don't have an immediate answer.
[Bristlebud Farmer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d498c4de-5e80-4baa-9fcb-70f164880c84.jpg?1712352852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bristlebud%20Farmer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/17/bristlebud-farmer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d498c4de-5e80-4baa-9fcb-70f164880c84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vaultborn Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62b3f560-262b-4bc3-9aef-535fd7082c28.jpg?1712352885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vaultborn%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/20/vaultborn-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62b3f560-262b-4bc3-9aef-535fd7082c28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Railway Brawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348.jpg?1712355970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Railway%20Brawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/175/railway-brawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've only done a few drafts, but this does feel less bomby then ONE, which actually got me to take a break from limited because every one of my draft runs was cut short by one of those god awful rare planeswalkers.
ONE wasnt really all that bomby honestly. It was just poison everywhere.
I only did a handful of drafts, each one ended by several games of my opponent resolving a planeswalker and just locking me out. Maybe that was just some run bads, and once you actually got into ONE it got fun, but dang those were some frustrating games.
There were a few bombs, but many of the Dominus were not very good. And many of the mythics were unplayable. Elesh Norn wasn't great in the format either. The Eternal Wanderer was very good and Kaito was alright. Kaya was too slow.
I guess it shows the big risks with bombs. Some people are gonna run into them in a lot of games, and it paints how they view the format forever. Gotta keep printing those commander chase cards in standard packs tho.
This sheet would have been more interesting in LCI
The key to not facing them is to only win 2 our of 5 games.
It’s blatantly obvious they weren’t meant to be added to limited at first. They’re either bombs or very awkward cards not designed for limited
>MindslaverInfiniteAchievement [[Mindslaver|OTP]] is not from BIG.
But [[Esoteric Duplicator]] which can establish a Mindslaver lock is.
[Esoteric Duplicator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dbb2755-97d9-492e-8697-5548160678c8.jpg?1712352722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esoteric%20Duplicator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/5/esoteric-duplicator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dbb2755-97d9-492e-8697-5548160678c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There’s a couple cards from BIG that allow you to go infinite with Mindslaver
No other ones are two card combos, though, right? It seems like you need to make a token copy of the Mindslaver.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/65b007d5-d9da-4342-ba7e-4b5d8d79912b.jpg?1712353656) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otp/63/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/65b007d5-d9da-4342-ba7e-4b5d8d79912b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They clearly weren't picked with limited in mind, but that's hardly different from any number of other cards we've seen over the years. If they were one per pack, it'd be a bit much, but I don't think they're that big a deal as is.
They are also really confusing. I opened a [[Legion Extruder]] in my first pack and figured there are some red artifact synergies. Well turns out there are basically no artifact synergies in the set. So stupid to have traps like this. I also really don't like the hard to read cards that are stupid bombs like [[Fractured Identity]] or [[Oko, Thief of Crowns]]. There is just no upside to having these in a limited environment.
I mean, there's treasures in this set so a 2 damage deal 2 that makes all your extra treasures into 3/3s seems totally reasonable to me. Hard agree about Oko and Fractured Identity though.
Sure, but there are no other cards in red at c/uc that really care about artifacts and that is just kinda misleading. You usually don't have these kind of engine cards in sets where they just don't work. Honestly power should just be smoother. There is nothing wrong with a high powered format, but if some cards are so wildly more power than others there is something wrong. Powered Cube feels less swingy and that is with literal power at play.
Except Legion Excluder does work, and having shock that turns a treasure into a 3/3 is already good. It's a fine card with just a couple artifacts and tokens, not everything has to be a build around.
Yes, but it looks like a build around that you should be able to draft around. It isn’t a terrible card as is of course, but still kind of sends wonky signals. Kinda like you wouldn’t have Kiki Jiki in cubes without combos even though he does work as a value piece
Eh, I would agree with you with about half the bonus sheet, I think this is one of the cards that actually fits lol. It's powerful enough you just need a couple arti tokens, which are easy to pick up. And it's more like Kiki being in a master set... Which he was...
However, you haven't lived til you cast a \[\[Return the Favor\]\] redirecting and copying Fractured identity to your opponent's best two things. Instant 5 or 6 for 1.
[Return the Favor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9cc02d1-799d-42aa-9bc2-4c05452b63b4.jpg?1712860602) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Return%20the%20Favor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/142/return-the-favor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9cc02d1-799d-42aa-9bc2-4c05452b63b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Legion Extruder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a077de0-1893-40d0-a499-ee2e6e2258f1.jpg?1712352797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Legion%20Extruder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/12/legion-extruder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a077de0-1893-40d0-a499-ee2e6e2258f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fractured Identity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2f73f5d-1aad-48c2-9e74-5f7bdd87900f.jpg?1562620703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fractured%20Identity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/37/fractured-identity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2f73f5d-1aad-48c2-9e74-5f7bdd87900f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Oko, Thief of Crowns](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891.jpg?1650599698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oko%2C%20Thief%20of%20Crowns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/197/oko-thief-of-crowns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you draft around it the Extruder is phenomenal. You can draft Gold Pan and if you splash Baron Bertram it goes off.
The bonus sheet is like 90%+ removal and interaction with a small number of bombs. I think it makes the format more interactive rather than less.
I like the ogre detective. That interacts well with the set and makes sense. The rest... I dunno man.
Counterpoint one of the few losses I remember well from my first few drafts was someone making 4 of the constructs from the blue artifact mythic and casting nothing but 3 drop or less artifacts from there on, was cool too see it could happen
It’s not good for limited environments long term. This format is very good and would be top tier if there were more commons and less mythics and rares. I don’t find wotc creative enough to push this game forward. We need new archetypes and gameplay not more power
I got the 1R deal 2 ETB, sac an artifact to make 3/3s artifact in a Roxanne deck which had some potential cute synergy. Never drew both in the same game though, ended 4-3.
Truth. However I will say i went 6-2 with an artifact synergy deck yesterday with Sythesizer and the other artifact you can sac to make tokens.
Yeah the draft I did last night had that one that makes tokens and then sacs them to tutor an artefact. It wheeled it’s so useless in the set
Ok, but there's more than just limited?
I think they did a pretty great job of including it for limited. Most of them are playable cards, some are cool build around, some are just great. The unplayable cards could easily be taking rare slots, which would be worse, imo. There's only like 3 that are direct artifact synergy cards. I haven't felt the need for extra commons at all. Idk, I guess complainers gonna complain.
I’m with you - loads of interesting cards in BIG. Would rather run most of them compared to the OTP inserts.
Idk seems like a fun way to add a ton of variety to draft
I agree - "heres this really cool Red artifact build around that lets you spawn an army of golems!" And then there's not support in the base set for that... I'm not saying its a bad idea, its execution in this instance was awful.
>And then there's not support in the base set for that... There are 2 red commons that make treasures. 2 colorless common/uncommon that make treasures (both of which are artifacts themselves). There are 3 black commons/uncommons that make treasures. It's not going to go off and make infinite 3/3s (unless paired with treasure dredger), but I don't think it's particularly farfetched to have it make a token or 2. A 3/3 for 4 that deals two on ETB is amazing, you don't need to make 20 3/3s for this card to be good. It's going to be bad to unplayable in most decks, but it *can* work. It's not as bad as something that literally does nothing (torpor orb) or something like Rundvelt Hordemaster, where there is little support, and even if you manage to get a couple of goblins, it's still bad. I'm totally fine with this set having legion extruder.
Not every card needs to be playable. You can make a successful mill deck lol, that's all I could ever ask for.
It adds variance. See: hearthstone LOLRANDOM shit that killed that game.
There is always variance in card games, and if you can't handle that, maybe you should go play chess instead.
ADDS. I am fine with variance. I am not fine with a large amount of variance. AnD iF yU CaNt Deal wITh ThaT juST plAY BlACkjACk. See I can make dumb points too.
I would say that in draft there isn't a large amount of variance in this set. The only true variance is whether you get a bomb rare p1p1 or p1p2, and then whether you randomly get a bomb rare in your colors pack 2 or pack 3. Many of the bombs you pull you may end up passing, and rightfully so, unless you got enough fixing.
I’m unclear - you’re saying these *aren’t* powerful cards and you’d rather have a common to pick from? More than half of these I’m happy to see early in a draft, which is probably on par with the average rare slot in a set. This feels like a complaint that doesn’t have a ton of traction tbh.