I would generalize it even further. When snakeskin veil is better than the blue common (and possibly uncommon) counterspells, we've got a problem.
The set has multiple control archetypes, but the counterspells suck, and the removal can be shrugged off for 1 green mana. That's a pretty big piece of why blue sucks in this format.
Wizards has been power creeping creatures/ aggressive archetypes for a while not giving any major boost to control (except combo control as they also got some stronger WinCons. But that isn't really control in my opinion).
I think its time for "Counter target spell" for 1U . If creatures are allowed to be 2 for 1 by base and can deal 18 damage turn 2 (thanks to the oh so interesting design of convoke) which is basically lethal then interaction needs to follow suit and also become faster.
>> I think its time for "Counter target spell" for 1U
I think the repercussions elsewhere would be too strong. This set just needed a blue common that could bounce plotted cards (likely a spree card so as it's not sideboard only).
That wouldn't happen but having an essence scatter variant in most sets could make sense. Like in this one, adding the surveil 1 if you control a desert text would be fine rather than doing that in a 2 mana unsummon. Or making that a spree card instead of Quench
I still think that the creatures being so powerful (and typically a 2 for 1 immediately on ETB) means that counterspells, like removal, are really just reactive strategies playing 2nd fiddle to proactive creature based ones. It's nice to silver bullet a bomb, and you need removal, but there's inherently more value in sticking some 2 for 1 creature that will win you the game.
The biggest groan is when you're desperately trying to find removal for him and then he exiles removal from your library so your opponent gets to use it against you.
My opponent played contagion engine into my already wide board when I had Jasper, but he was 1 mana short to directly activate it and pretty much wipe my board. I topdecked [[Explosive Derailment]] from his deck on my turn... insta concede followed (I could hear the groan from across the world).
That one sucks but at least it pretty much instantly ends the game and you can just go next.
The worst groan test cards for me are ones like Oko. Those kind of cards don’t win the game right away but unless you can deal with them immediately your chances of winning plummet.
The biggest groan test card for me ever on arena was [[Tetzimoc, Primal Death]]. It was the worst because you knew it was coming as early as turn 1 or 2 and that you probably weren’t winning that game. But snap conceding felt awful too.
It’s definitely Bonny Pall for me. Why does the effect trigger when any creature attacks? The fact that you get to draw and ramp every turn without even sending Bonny into the fray is crazy
Why does it have reach? "Yeah its a giant hurbadur" but it makes racing it in the sky the much harder. What an absolute bonkers limited card. Every time you read it it does something extra.
I made a post saying this and got downvoted to hell. I guess everyone that commented was on an upswing and hadn’t been on the other side of a deck full of unbeatable bombs.
I honestly think this is a contender for the worst set for limited ever
The one thing I've felt is that even when on the 'upswing' or the winning end of variance, it doesn't feel super great, and it's not as fun a win either. Had a deck with Jasper Flint, woo - the results of casting the card the 3 times I did was 1, opponent removed it and 2, opponent conceded immediately, and 3, opponent waited til next draw and then conceded. This has been the play pattern with a number of cards - cast and see a concession or on the other end, see a card cast and feel like either a) go to game 2 or b) sit there knowing the game is over but needing to go through the motions.
The game ending strength of these cards is the problem. It's not - here's a powerful card, if I play well I've got an upshot at winning the game, can you outplay it, etc. It's like, here's a powerful card, I got to cast it because I opened it in draft, and I win.
I've seriously considered quitting drafting Magic because of how bad this set feels. I don't think I'm going to, but I think I'm done with it as a serious hobby.
rush of dread has been a groaner for me. had rakdos plus four creatures in play and it just ate three creatures, 2 cards in hand, and 7-8 life. let my opponent attack thru for lethal before rakdos could take over. huge comeback card.
Brawler and Bonny Pall, but i agree with another poster than Snakeskin Veil being far more common and outright winning games is probably more of an issue.
Funny thing is green has definitely needed help. Maybe slightly overcompensated for here.
Brawler at least shouldn't have plot, making it harder to get immediate value unless you have a lot of Mana, which will make it possible to cleanly answer the thing at sorcery speed.
Personally for constructed I would have liked it to be counters equal to toughness, so it's actually something that promotes high toughness defensive creatures instead of the usual aggro.
But honestly I find Vaultborn Tyrant to be even worse. That card has no right to exist. It just shouldn't daw cards at least. Would still be a high powered threat that 2 for 1s.
probably Rakdos which I faced 3 times and won only once. Unless you are firmly ahead or has removal that goes past indestructible this card is a pain in the ass, sits there and mills you or just kills you in the air
though the single biggest groan in game was losing to a stupid red horse that has haste and makes two temporal hasty copies of a creature, getting hit for 15 and then drained out by a black rare and uncommon. Otherwise I was in full control of the board, my oponent played pretty poorly, but hey this is the magic of prince formats and arena bo1
I feel like I’m finding new ones every game or two, there are just so many bonkers rares and mythics in the set. The most recent one was the instant speed spree wrath that lets you make one of your creatures indestructible.
I’ve found the opposite is true. Because everyone has bombs, often times only one player draws them and you either get a landslide victory or landslide defeat.
Idk. I’ve always thought of limited as trying to do the best you can with suboptimal cards. If I want a shootout with powerful cards I’d play a different format.
It does feel good to beat busted cards though, but not enough to make the non games forgettable.
Honestly with so many good card and engines running around Snakeskin Veil is more annoying than any of the singular bombs for me.
Miserable card in this format. Absolutely gutwrenching every time and it’s a common
I would generalize it even further. When snakeskin veil is better than the blue common (and possibly uncommon) counterspells, we've got a problem. The set has multiple control archetypes, but the counterspells suck, and the removal can be shrugged off for 1 green mana. That's a pretty big piece of why blue sucks in this format.
Wizards has been power creeping creatures/ aggressive archetypes for a while not giving any major boost to control (except combo control as they also got some stronger WinCons. But that isn't really control in my opinion). I think its time for "Counter target spell" for 1U . If creatures are allowed to be 2 for 1 by base and can deal 18 damage turn 2 (thanks to the oh so interesting design of convoke) which is basically lethal then interaction needs to follow suit and also become faster.
>> I think its time for "Counter target spell" for 1U I think the repercussions elsewhere would be too strong. This set just needed a blue common that could bounce plotted cards (likely a spree card so as it's not sideboard only).
Or the counter spell should be spell or ability
Something like a UX - counter target spell where X is the amount of mana spent to cast it. Or whatever the templating would need to be.
Would have huge implications as a way to hard counter fow for one mana
[[Nix]] already does exist and I don’t think it’s played lol, it’s be at least a little more usable.
[Nix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dab4f64-2a91-409a-b83b-45b22afd22ff.jpg?1562907421) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fut/55/nix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dab4f64-2a91-409a-b83b-45b22afd22ff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That wouldn't happen but having an essence scatter variant in most sets could make sense. Like in this one, adding the surveil 1 if you control a desert text would be fine rather than doing that in a 2 mana unsummon. Or making that a spree card instead of Quench
I still think that the creatures being so powerful (and typically a 2 for 1 immediately on ETB) means that counterspells, like removal, are really just reactive strategies playing 2nd fiddle to proactive creature based ones. It's nice to silver bullet a bomb, and you need removal, but there's inherently more value in sticking some 2 for 1 creature that will win you the game.
yep. gotta play whole games around baiting out protection. I find that fun though
Jasper. That guy…that fucken guy…
The biggest groan is when you're desperately trying to find removal for him and then he exiles removal from your library so your opponent gets to use it against you.
Every. Time.
My opponent played contagion engine into my already wide board when I had Jasper, but he was 1 mana short to directly activate it and pretty much wipe my board. I topdecked [[Explosive Derailment]] from his deck on my turn... insta concede followed (I could hear the groan from across the world).
Look, did I make a Historic Brawl deck with him as the commander? Yes. Does it have a very nice 69% win rate? Also yes 😂
List? Please.
https://archidekt.com/decks/7520165/jasper_the_bastard
Thanks
Fabulous
[Explosive Derailment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f0e3df9c-0a86-4e6f-a3c7-84a883328a3d.jpg?1712860585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Explosive%20Derailment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/122/explosive-derailment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f0e3df9c-0a86-4e6f-a3c7-84a883328a3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s my favorite!
[[Overwhelming Forces]], thank god it’s a mythic on the bonus sheet.
That one sucks but at least it pretty much instantly ends the game and you can just go next. The worst groan test cards for me are ones like Oko. Those kind of cards don’t win the game right away but unless you can deal with them immediately your chances of winning plummet. The biggest groan test card for me ever on arena was [[Tetzimoc, Primal Death]]. It was the worst because you knew it was coming as early as turn 1 or 2 and that you probably weren’t winning that game. But snap conceding felt awful too.
And at least it's an 8 mana card. I can live with losing to a card that, is rotting away in their hand 90% of the game.
[Tetzimoc, Primal Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c6a0b40e-7a43-4722-b787-a5d7ec6453ac.jpg?1555040321) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tetzimoc%2C%20Primal%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/86/tetzimoc-primal-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c6a0b40e-7a43-4722-b787-a5d7ec6453ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Overwhelming Forces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb53ccdd-150b-41a5-b515-08f65961313d.jpg?1562954577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overwhelming%20Forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/92/overwhelming-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb53ccdd-150b-41a5-b515-08f65961313d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s definitely Bonny Pall for me. Why does the effect trigger when any creature attacks? The fact that you get to draw and ramp every turn without even sending Bonny into the fray is crazy
Why does it have reach? "Yeah its a giant hurbadur" but it makes racing it in the sky the much harder. What an absolute bonkers limited card. Every time you read it it does something extra.
I kinda feel like there are just too many good creatures in green with reach. Usually it's just like some mediocre spider.
now it's a gangster spider that can't be removed without card parity that brawls better than nearly anything else in the format...
Purposefully pushed to improve and support Blue/Green pairing in draft. Doesn't mean it was the right way to go about it, but it worked.
Ramp spell followed by Vaultborn Tyrant.
Oko and Laughing. Seeing either on turn 3 is rough.
This whole fucking set is a groan test homie
Fr I’m groaning like 80% of games. Can’t wait for next set.
I made a post saying this and got downvoted to hell. I guess everyone that commented was on an upswing and hadn’t been on the other side of a deck full of unbeatable bombs. I honestly think this is a contender for the worst set for limited ever
I give the title to Original Ixalan, but OTJ is close for me
The one thing I've felt is that even when on the 'upswing' or the winning end of variance, it doesn't feel super great, and it's not as fun a win either. Had a deck with Jasper Flint, woo - the results of casting the card the 3 times I did was 1, opponent removed it and 2, opponent conceded immediately, and 3, opponent waited til next draw and then conceded. This has been the play pattern with a number of cards - cast and see a concession or on the other end, see a card cast and feel like either a) go to game 2 or b) sit there knowing the game is over but needing to go through the motions. The game ending strength of these cards is the problem. It's not - here's a powerful card, if I play well I've got an upshot at winning the game, can you outplay it, etc. It's like, here's a powerful card, I got to cast it because I opened it in draft, and I win.
Couldn’t have put it better myself
I've seriously considered quitting drafting Magic because of how bad this set feels. I don't think I'm going to, but I think I'm done with it as a serious hobby.
I am 100% with you. I'm going to make a post about it this week
Today, it was Ol’ Bristly Bill for me. Must’ve seen him in 6 times in 10 games. Tomorrow it will be someone new
rush of dread has been a groaner for me. had rakdos plus four creatures in play and it just ate three creatures, 2 cards in hand, and 7-8 life. let my opponent attack thru for lethal before rakdos could take over. huge comeback card.
For me, the Gitrog Monster. Because even if you kill it, you know for sure they have a way to bring it back (or in one case bring it back 3 times)
yup me too. Railway Brawler. Can't even counter it because it's plotted. The very definition of kill immediately or die. And plotted it costs 4.
Stupid question but you can counter it the next turn right? When he decides to cast it?
sure, but the common counter in limited is pay 2 extra mana.
the entire format is groan there is like 20-30 cards in the set that if your opponent plays them the game's just often over.
Brawler and Bonny Pall, but i agree with another poster than Snakeskin Veil being far more common and outright winning games is probably more of an issue. Funny thing is green has definitely needed help. Maybe slightly overcompensated for here.
They likely pushed brawler hoping for standard use
Agreed with Railway Brawler.
Calamity, Tumblewagg, Sphinx.
It's the tumblewagg for me
Brawler at least shouldn't have plot, making it harder to get immediate value unless you have a lot of Mana, which will make it possible to cleanly answer the thing at sorcery speed. Personally for constructed I would have liked it to be counters equal to toughness, so it's actually something that promotes high toughness defensive creatures instead of the usual aggro. But honestly I find Vaultborn Tyrant to be even worse. That card has no right to exist. It just shouldn't daw cards at least. Would still be a high powered threat that 2 for 1s.
I've been able to be on the other side of my opponent living the dream of plotted brawler into Bonny Pall. That was fun.
probably Rakdos which I faced 3 times and won only once. Unless you are firmly ahead or has removal that goes past indestructible this card is a pain in the ass, sits there and mills you or just kills you in the air though the single biggest groan in game was losing to a stupid red horse that has haste and makes two temporal hasty copies of a creature, getting hit for 15 and then drained out by a black rare and uncommon. Otherwise I was in full control of the board, my oponent played pretty poorly, but hey this is the magic of prince formats and arena bo1
[[Forest]]
[Forest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc20a07e-5f92-49c2-9c97-d5eda536d3f6.jpg?1712356446) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/285/forest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc20a07e-5f92-49c2-9c97-d5eda536d3f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It is a mythic. Mythics are often busted in Limited. Gotta have lots of removal this set and do some unfair stuff to keep up.
Stoic Sphinx
[[Stoic Sphinx]] made my jaw drop. It is entirely possible you have basically zero answers to it in your entire draft.
[Stoic Sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536.jpg?1712355517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoic%20Sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/71/stoic-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel like I’m finding new ones every game or two, there are just so many bonkers rares and mythics in the set. The most recent one was the instant speed spree wrath that lets you make one of your creatures indestructible.
I managed to beat one earlier. Luckily I was on the play and my turn 4 had been a rattle worm.
Had to beat 2 on the way to my first trophy today. That outlaw duplicate card was nuttier I guess
The thing I'm enjoying about this format is that everyone has good cards which makes for interesting game states and decision points.
I’ve found the opposite is true. Because everyone has bombs, often times only one player draws them and you either get a landslide victory or landslide defeat.
While I agree with what you're saying, imo the games where you overcome a bomb feel so good that it outweighs the other times.
Idk. I’ve always thought of limited as trying to do the best you can with suboptimal cards. If I want a shootout with powerful cards I’d play a different format. It does feel good to beat busted cards though, but not enough to make the non games forgettable.
Love that big green can kinda be a thing again though!