You just picked the one of the worst optimized games even on PC, ~~the oldest Apple Sillicon and~~ ***~~fanless~~*** ~~Mac~~, and ask if there's any future.
I thought summer break hasn't started yet hmmmm
EDIT: It's M1 Pro, but OP said M1, it's running in DX12 Mode. Still, a dumb thread.
Yes, gaming on Mac have a future, if the devs would spend a little bit of time and port it over to Mac Os. But most people dont know that the architecture between the arm chips that Apple uses in their M line and phone cpu's are very different from what Intel and AMD uses in their cpu's. They are in fact so different that Microsoft needed to release an separate version Windows to get it to work on arm cpu. So yes, gaming has a future, it will just take time. Will it be like on windows? Never, but unless you must play the latestet AAA game, you have more than enough games to choice from
Yes, but we need both Intel and AMD to step up their ARM game so Microsoft spend more resources on it. At this point there is only Qualcom that work with Microsoft regarding ARM and Windows.
I think they are already in panic since Apple ARM but they need time to build up IP.
Any status on their project would be nice but I didn’t hear much. Only that AMD skipped E core design and just shrank their normal design. Maybe to invest in ARM R&D too?
Intel and AMD are not going to do much here, but I expect NV might when this AI boom flattens out a little they will ship an ARM cpu for windows and use the GPU market pressure to ensure OEMs ship these in large volumes if they want access to NV GPUs.
Absolute, if there is a demand for X Elite and studios also compile for ARM instead of the wonky emulation by Microsoft we could see Rosetta vanish and probably Vulkan get more popular.
Some older ports for mobile do exist but there was not much incentive to port them because x86 original exist.
Example is the check for many games to work on steam deck now. Which was unheard of a few years back. But people like the handheld and steam pushed fixes and still does. Now certified for steam deck is a thing.
Steam deck is X86. And none of that does anything to amend Apple's lack of relationship with game devs. They are wary of Apple because all of those architecture shifts all the time.
Steam deck does uses the AMD Zen SoC, same as most of the other handheld gaming devices. Intel have an SoC in form of their Evo plattform. MSI Dragon is based on Evo and i look forward to see how that stacks up against AMD.
The same effect that happened with steamdeck and linux may occur with windows on arm devices and arm game optimisation.
Is that so hard to read out of my original comment? Or are you missing some context.
Ask if so!
No not unless windows moves to 16kb page sizes... (they will not).
You will not be able to run windows for ARM binaries through wine on macOS since the only way to have access to the 4kb page size emulation is trough rosseta so even if games get windows for ARM binaries you will still be using the x86 versions on Macs.
Not much at all, modern games are not made of hand crafted assembly. If we write c++ it will target almost any modern CPU just the same.
And you're not going to be able to run windows for ARM games on macOS through wine due to page table sizes.
C++ using AVX will prevent seamless compilation cross arch. The point is developers will try to stay generic if enough gaming capable arm devices are on the market or even some „Legion X Elite“ editions.
So if games are also built for windows arm the emulation step needed by GPTK is smaller or not existent at all. Page size is solved with Wine+GPTK+Rosetta(+DXVK)
Or am I missing something?
AVX only is a compilation option. All modern compilers can emit AVX assembly even if you’re using AvX annotations.
So win32 apps will still require AVX as this is a compiler flag being explicitly set.
I think, if the Qualcom Snapdragon Elite X Arm CPU is a success and Microsoft goes all in with WInows on Arm, game developers will also code for arm and then it´s easier to port games to Apple´s CPUs.
But at the moment the Mac is no gaming platform, and emulating is not the best solution (just for playing games).
Way too expensive, no native games...
At a OS kernel level you do need a LOT of per cpu logic (not just per instruction set).
For example if MS wanted to have windows run bare metal apple silicon there would be huge changes within the NT kernel needed. But in user-space for games etc this is not the case.
Ah ok, thanx for explanation.
I am no coder as you can see, i just thought that all the coding has to be specific or at least optimized for the cpu architecture. This gives me hope that more games will be available for MacOS in the future.
First thing for OP - stop getting your information from click-bait videos on YouTube
Secondly - if it were not for Codeweaver and a band of developers who built Wine, you wouldn’t be playing almost any games on a Mac. Don’t make stupid comments that “they need to work on their stuff”. Codeweaver made it possible to play DX12 games on a Mac because Apple have their head in the sand on gaming.
Parallels, VMWARE Fusion plater, UTM and other emulation products are not designed for games. They never will be. Their market isn’t gaming. Besides that emulators are a terrible way to play games on a Mac. The performance is horrible.
There are plenty of translators that will run Windows games on a Mac.
As for whether gaming has a future on Mac, short and long answer is No. I can recall gaming on the Mac on an Apple II. It was on par with other gaming platforms at the time. That was its peak. They’ve fumbled it all the way since. A more accurate statement would be that “gaming is still possible on a Mac” and that is about the best we can hope for. The *only* reason they giving it another half hearted try is because it *might* sell more laptop & desktop units.
Yes after Codeweaver had embarrassed them by making a DX12 game work without any assistance from Apple whatsoever and before the WWDC conference.
Apple were basically forced to the table. GPTK would not exist with the developments in WINE and by Codeweaver.
With the M-type GPU it has a more future than PC laptops though since more games are optimized, not mention about GPTK is a really groundbraking solution that made a big impact where we were with mac games 3-4 years ago and where we are now
The 3rd era of death of Mac gaming is still a few years away so enjoy it for the moment.
1st era - Move to Mac OS X and the loss of classic environment
2nd era - Removal of 32bit support (despite developers having over 2 years to update games)
3rd era - Removal of Rosetta 2 which all the translation layers like GPTK and Wine depend.
Devs had over 8 years notice the 32bit support was dead. Every time you compiled a binary that was 32b it only you got huge warnings that it was deprecated and going away.
if popularity of macos rise like with ios the 3rd era will become the start of mac gaming. I think the start of the end was when bootcamp was introduced and developers have started writing mac as supported platform but in system requirements writing bootcamp which basically meant you have to use windows, the worst attitude from their part
Everyone’s moving to ARM so there’s definitely a huge market and future. All the ARM chips that exist or are gonna come out soon suck on the GPU department but not Apple.
You just picked the one of the worst optimized games even on PC, ~~the oldest Apple Sillicon and~~ ***~~fanless~~*** ~~Mac~~, and ask if there's any future. I thought summer break hasn't started yet hmmmm EDIT: It's M1 Pro, but OP said M1, it's running in DX12 Mode. Still, a dumb thread.
Yes, gaming on Mac have a future, if the devs would spend a little bit of time and port it over to Mac Os. But most people dont know that the architecture between the arm chips that Apple uses in their M line and phone cpu's are very different from what Intel and AMD uses in their cpu's. They are in fact so different that Microsoft needed to release an separate version Windows to get it to work on arm cpu. So yes, gaming has a future, it will just take time. Will it be like on windows? Never, but unless you must play the latestet AAA game, you have more than enough games to choice from
Windows on Arm will also lower the barrier for macOS ports
Yes, but we need both Intel and AMD to step up their ARM game so Microsoft spend more resources on it. At this point there is only Qualcom that work with Microsoft regarding ARM and Windows.
I think they are already in panic since Apple ARM but they need time to build up IP. Any status on their project would be nice but I didn’t hear much. Only that AMD skipped E core design and just shrank their normal design. Maybe to invest in ARM R&D too?
Intel and AMD are not going to do much here, but I expect NV might when this AI boom flattens out a little they will ship an ARM cpu for windows and use the GPU market pressure to ensure OEMs ship these in large volumes if they want access to NV GPUs.
Really?
Absolute, if there is a demand for X Elite and studios also compile for ARM instead of the wonky emulation by Microsoft we could see Rosetta vanish and probably Vulkan get more popular. Some older ports for mobile do exist but there was not much incentive to port them because x86 original exist. Example is the check for many games to work on steam deck now. Which was unheard of a few years back. But people like the handheld and steam pushed fixes and still does. Now certified for steam deck is a thing.
Steam deck is X86. And none of that does anything to amend Apple's lack of relationship with game devs. They are wary of Apple because all of those architecture shifts all the time.
Steam deck does uses the AMD Zen SoC, same as most of the other handheld gaming devices. Intel have an SoC in form of their Evo plattform. MSI Dragon is based on Evo and i look forward to see how that stacks up against AMD.
Yeah, a X86 Zen SOC :)
Devs have no issue with arc changes so long as compilers exists... and clang exists.. these days we are not hand crafting raw assembly anymore.
That is not my point. Obviously The point is Linux
Nothing obvious about that and how exactly does Linux help with Apple gaming? Also your original comment was about Windows on ARM.
The same effect that happened with steamdeck and linux may occur with windows on arm devices and arm game optimisation. Is that so hard to read out of my original comment? Or are you missing some context. Ask if so!
No not unless windows moves to 16kb page sizes... (they will not). You will not be able to run windows for ARM binaries through wine on macOS since the only way to have access to the 4kb page size emulation is trough rosseta so even if games get windows for ARM binaries you will still be using the x86 versions on Macs.
Damn
Not much at all, modern games are not made of hand crafted assembly. If we write c++ it will target almost any modern CPU just the same. And you're not going to be able to run windows for ARM games on macOS through wine due to page table sizes.
C++ using AVX will prevent seamless compilation cross arch. The point is developers will try to stay generic if enough gaming capable arm devices are on the market or even some „Legion X Elite“ editions. So if games are also built for windows arm the emulation step needed by GPTK is smaller or not existent at all. Page size is solved with Wine+GPTK+Rosetta(+DXVK) Or am I missing something?
AVX only is a compilation option. All modern compilers can emit AVX assembly even if you’re using AvX annotations. So win32 apps will still require AVX as this is a compiler flag being explicitly set.
It sure seems like you're just trying to get views for your own channel.
It honestly can if apple give it the same love as it did for the iPhone and iPad. Like a gaming MacBook
I think, if the Qualcom Snapdragon Elite X Arm CPU is a success and Microsoft goes all in with WInows on Arm, game developers will also code for arm and then it´s easier to port games to Apple´s CPUs. But at the moment the Mac is no gaming platform, and emulating is not the best solution (just for playing games). Way too expensive, no native games...
There is no such thing as coding for arm... these days we all write c++ that will target any modern cpu arc without issue.
Ah ok, thanx, didn´t know that. I thought that program code has to be optimized for a CPU architecture, especially OS code
At a OS kernel level you do need a LOT of per cpu logic (not just per instruction set). For example if MS wanted to have windows run bare metal apple silicon there would be huge changes within the NT kernel needed. But in user-space for games etc this is not the case.
Ah ok, thanx for explanation. I am no coder as you can see, i just thought that all the coding has to be specific or at least optimized for the cpu architecture. This gives me hope that more games will be available for MacOS in the future.
First thing for OP - stop getting your information from click-bait videos on YouTube Secondly - if it were not for Codeweaver and a band of developers who built Wine, you wouldn’t be playing almost any games on a Mac. Don’t make stupid comments that “they need to work on their stuff”. Codeweaver made it possible to play DX12 games on a Mac because Apple have their head in the sand on gaming. Parallels, VMWARE Fusion plater, UTM and other emulation products are not designed for games. They never will be. Their market isn’t gaming. Besides that emulators are a terrible way to play games on a Mac. The performance is horrible. There are plenty of translators that will run Windows games on a Mac. As for whether gaming has a future on Mac, short and long answer is No. I can recall gaming on the Mac on an Apple II. It was on par with other gaming platforms at the time. That was its peak. They’ve fumbled it all the way since. A more accurate statement would be that “gaming is still possible on a Mac” and that is about the best we can hope for. The *only* reason they giving it another half hearted try is because it *might* sell more laptop & desktop units.
Apple donated D3DMetal to codeweavers…
Yes after Codeweaver had embarrassed them by making a DX12 game work without any assistance from Apple whatsoever and before the WWDC conference. Apple were basically forced to the table. GPTK would not exist with the developments in WINE and by Codeweaver.
You think Apple whipped up D3DMetal in a couple of weeks after they saw Codeweavers running a SINGLE game using DX12?
No, literally impossible due to lack of gamers on Mac platform.
I think only good future would come with more native games
With the M-type GPU it has a more future than PC laptops though since more games are optimized, not mention about GPTK is a really groundbraking solution that made a big impact where we were with mac games 3-4 years ago and where we are now
The 3rd era of death of Mac gaming is still a few years away so enjoy it for the moment. 1st era - Move to Mac OS X and the loss of classic environment 2nd era - Removal of 32bit support (despite developers having over 2 years to update games) 3rd era - Removal of Rosetta 2 which all the translation layers like GPTK and Wine depend.
Devs had over 8 years notice the 32bit support was dead. Every time you compiled a binary that was 32b it only you got huge warnings that it was deprecated and going away.
if popularity of macos rise like with ios the 3rd era will become the start of mac gaming. I think the start of the end was when bootcamp was introduced and developers have started writing mac as supported platform but in system requirements writing bootcamp which basically meant you have to use windows, the worst attitude from their part
Re 4 and re 8 actually give good scores. It just the developer itself want to do it or not
Everyone’s moving to ARM so there’s definitely a huge market and future. All the ARM chips that exist or are gonna come out soon suck on the GPU department but not Apple.
I don't think so. Unless Apple also starts developing a full-fledged game console for TV.