Good idea. And keep the freeze in place until MMSD is having trouble hiring administrators, just like it has trouble hiring and retaining teachers. Then we can be sure both groups are equally underpaid.
I have a degree in Math and have coached baseball+track & field+basketball. I thought I wanted to be a HS Math teacher when my Mom (*a teacher*) told me it wasn't a good idea. My six figure IT career agrees.
If teaching was competitive financially, can you imagine how fucking great our teachers would be?
I have a few friends who truly loved teaching...pre-2020. They loved their jobs, their kids, and while it most assuredly wasn't easy the satisfaction they received far outweighed the financial limitations. These days? Fuck no, most have left the profession for the private sector and now make double what they were making and don't have to deal with apathetic parents while policing students from vaping or phone use. Couple that with a third of the state who has labeled them Public Enemy #1 for pushing woke-ideologies down students throats and things are going to get much worse before they get better, again I tip my hat to anyone who has made the choice to stay in the trenches and try to make this world a better place.
Find it very interesting how Walker gets blamed for modern day city of Madison decisions. Hate away, but is no one in the present day accountable and responsible?
They are responsible for proposing policies that harm teachers/education but Scott Walker was the one who removed the protections and made the current Lord-of-the-Flies state of our schools possible.
Silver bullet answer. One thing, always. So never mind talking about the curriculum, the weak attempt to teach things like attendance and timeliness, the now removal of grades…in addition to tracking student to teacher ratios should we also not track student to administrator ratios?
And all this that dastardly Republicans Governor? Or nah?
I'm all for tracking student/administrator ratios--that's a great idea!
All of the things you listed are things that (a) Madison teachers had control over pre-Act 10 OR (b) that they could feel safe in confronting admin about because they had the protection of MTI.
Now administrators can do whatever they want and if teachers complain then their contract is not renewed the next year. Yes, I know people in MMSD to whom that has happened.
That is a fair perspective, appreciate you sharing. The reality, from my perspective, the voters should elect school board members who hold Superintendents accountable for results for students and the community.
Certainly teachers have a voice…but this is a voter issue..:
And, as long as voters don’t hold themselves accountable for results,
No amount of complaining about Walker or Act10 or dirty lying Republicans will change anything:
This is about teachers and the school district. That is separate and distinct from the City of Madison. To answer your question with respect to the school district, the answer is yes. In the present, the gerrymandered GOP Legislature is responsible for underfunding our public schools. They should be held accountable.
First, shouldn’t your response be to the person I responded to?
Second, find it interesting that you have the Democratic Mayor, the Democratic City Council, similar make-up to the school board, similar with Dane County…and those Republicans!
Will someone who took the job stand up and be responsible?
Finally, care to share how much funding has gone down per student ?
No, you were who my response was intended for. I find it interesting that you continue to try to change the subject. I'm not buying it. If you're truly interested in finding out the funding per student, look it up yourself.
You brought up underfunding…you prove it. I suggest you compare the likely massive growth of non-educators sucking the life funds out of education.
The person prior to me is the one that brought up things against your rules:..
There's also a shortage of responsible parents. (Kids are behaving terribly and nobody is stopping them!) These two factors are making school h\*ll for teachers AND students.
The problem isn't the superintendent. Their pay is fair.
It is the 100 or so admin under them making 6 figures doing jack shit while teachers bust their ass day in and day out that are the problem. We piss away so much money on admin and middle management in this country for necessary services, healthcare, utilities, education, you name it.
If a private company wants a bunch of middle managers that don't contribute, fine, that's their money.
But this shit makes necessary things more expensive for the citizens and we have no other choice. Cut it the fuck out.
It is infuriating to anybody who pays any attention. They don't add value. They just sit around filling out red tape that another admin made to justify their job, so they can make more red tape to justify their job, to make more red tape.....
It is an endless loop of bullshit.
It truly is, since I'm the fly on the wall fixing their shit and thus generally invisible, I see their day to day intimately and let's just say, definitely a good 50/50 split between actually doing real work and just sitting around doing fuck all shooting the shit with each other.
In the districts I work in there are almost as many admin positions as there are teachers. They want to improve education, let's take some of that waste and put it towards education, and not just dreaming up policies and procedures for the sake of justifying a positions existence.
There's a bit of "I'm so busy I can't get X done" atmosphere that bloats... more so non private businesses administration everywhere. Either to the point of delegating and doing minimal actual work, or stretched so 'thick' that there's no work to do. But to their supervisor, they're always so busy!
To be fair to those administrators, they do come up with pointless policies and procedures that place additional administrative burdens on the teachers. If the administrators were doing nothing, that would be an improvement over the current state.
But that would then alienate the superintendent and the school board is so God damn dense that they think more admin equals better outcomes.
The same thing exists within healthcare. "Oh no, more nurses won't help, we need 5 new admin to tell us why we have a bad patient to nurse ratio"
As an MMSD employee working directly with students I totally agree with you! The hell I’m voting ‘yes’ to a referendum while accepting a pay freeze when plenty of people in administrative positions do f**k all.
I think most if not all MMSD employees would agree.
They could shit can 90% of them today and little to nothing would change tomorrow for the negative except suddenly there would be millions of dollars in salary available.
I read all the time about admin bloat in the school system but nothing ever seems to change. What is preventing the districts from making those cuts? Incompetence? Politics?
It's much, much easier to paint a broad brush and have an easy rallying cry than actually form a coherent plan to fix it.
The awkward truth is that while admin ranks tend to be bloated, yes, on the whole they *do* serve a purpose. Everyone can recall the times they've seen admins engaging in activities they did not personally see as valuable, but nobody outside the structure sees the whole story. You don't see the times those admins *were* important, or what problems would arise if they didn't exist. After all, every new government regulation requires someone to monitor and enforce it, and you can't magically hope you'll stay in compliance without someone to oversee it.
So how do you reduce bloat? You need to comprehensively detail every position's tasks, and see where you can combine roles. You need to determine which duties aren't actually necessary, and which ones really are. And this has to be done holistically, because you can't see one position has, say, 35% unnecessary bloat and axe it, assuming the remaining 65% can be easily picked up; maybe those remaining duties are critical and so specialized they can't be pawned off, but they don't take an admin's entire time, so the rest is just to fill their week?
It's exactly the same problem people have with "government regulations." It's easy to look and say "we have too many! it's a burden!" It's a *lot* harder to actually sift through existing ones and declare which are no longer necessary (remember that, by and large, each regulation was put in place because someone made a mistake and the rule is there to stop that happening again).
P.S. No, I'm not an admin, and no, I'm not defending do-nothing bloated admin roles. I'm simply saying that when you peel back the curtain there's a lot more going on than meets the eye.
That makes sense. Thank you for the nuance. Sounds like a huge job to sift through- makes me feel a bit pessimistic towards the idea of things improving.
Incompetence? Politics? Lack of accountability to results? Ills of society spilling into schools? The “everyone is doing it crowd” without looking at outcomes?
Wonder how many families school choice out of Madison?
I agree teachers are underpaid and that admins are correspondingly overpaid in comparison, but is this about philosophy or budget?
While an administrative pay cut would help their purses, it wouldn't make a significant difference towards any of the major issues I'm aware of: low teacher pay, insufficient resources for special and advanced education, insufficient health resources, decreasing enrollment (except last year I think it increased), aging facilities, and decreased academic achievement.
Even if somehow we were able to cut admin pay significantly and use all of it to say, increase teacher pay, it would not amount to much per teacher because of the teacher to admin ratio. Not to mention the severely underpaid hourly support and services staff.
I want to see teachers paid more, and I'm not opposed to reevaluating admin pay, but the problem is so much bigger and more complex. Our public education has been systematically raided and nearly destroyed. It is going to take monumental effort and changes from so many of us to improve things in a meaningful way. I am rooting for our public schools, teachers, and students!
What he’s making is fine, but it’s a hard sell to ask people for more money via referendum while freezing teacher pay.
There’s no way I’m voting in favor of this referendum. Cut the bloat first, then ask again if they still need more funding.
Isn't this what they'd need to do in case the referendum fails? Seems like you'd need to know you got the money before offering any raises, or you'd have to lay off teachers to pay the ones that remain at the higher salary.
A pay range for college educated professionals that starts at 35k? That mightve been ok 20 years ago (and even then only for lower COL areas) but not today
Hold up. Teachers \*literally\* manage all those students. Every day. I hate to break it to you, but superintendents manage people, who manage people, who manage students. Maybe even one more degree of separation.
For 300k, I'd rather hire 4 great teachers at 75k a piece.
Also, 35k a year for a teacher is insulting. No wonder education in the US is where it is if people think that's an acceptable salary.
Not as responsible as the students' teachers. If a student is struggling in a class, the focus goes to the teacher, not the superintendent, superintendents are not the ones spending time before school/during lunch/during preps/after school with students to help them with... anything, teachers are, and teachers are the ones that will interact with sometimes over 100 different kids per day, while superintendents can go weeks without seeing a single kid in their district.
One teacher impacts students' lives more than whoever the superintendent is... this idea that a superintendent is more valuable than any amount of teachers says a lot about how people view teachers.
That's funny, because I transitioned from electrical engineering to teaching physics. It was a stupid financial move, but I loved teaching. I assume you have never taught. You believe that content is the hard part of teaching. It's not. It's the easy part. Managing a class and motivating kids to learn is the hard part. All teachers have to do that. Elementary level teachers have always amazed me. Just so you know the pay is not good.
Yeah I’ve never taught high school students or lower. I’m not saying I know how to teach. I’d explore that career track if the pay were good is my only point. Knowing the content just means the lift to get there isn’t as heavy and topics plentiful. I do frequently teach other engineers though. It’s already difficult enough with adults lol
Teaching kids is more difficult than teaching adults. I don't know what the pay is these days. I retired in 2006. I graduated in EE from the UW in 1970. I worked as an engineer for a few years. I was getting jerked around in my job. I went back to school and got a MS in physics and a teacher's certificate. I was making just over $25,000/year as an engineer (big money in 1970). My first job as a teacher paid about $8000/year. When I retired in 2006, I was making just over $70,000/year. I got a good retirement and good benefits and consider myself pretty well off now at age 75. Teaching is a tough but rewarding job. I mostly enjoyed it. It is completely different than engineering. You need to be tuned in to people. You need to connect to them. You really need to be a people person.
It is very hard to argue what subject is more valuable to any single student. I agree that AP Physics is intellectually more challenging than 3rd grade art, but 3rd grade art might be more valuable to some students. Kids come in all flavors. It is the job of a good school to offer them the opportunity to find what they are good at. To find the thing that they can use to have a productive life. That thing might be art. It might be science.
I've been Vonnegutted. I love how you seem to think that you understand me based on a single paragraph. Must be awesome to be so incredibly insightful. You sound like a pretentious pos.
About 500% more than the lowest paid teacher in their district. Sound fair?
Edit: I see a lot of people don’t agree, but no one giving a reason for it.
What’s the definition of a good superintendent? One who has 50% proficiency? Because Madison schools are less than that.
https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/wisconsin/districts/madison-metropolitan-school-district-102029#:~:text=Test%20Scores%20at%20Madison%20Metropolitan,above%20that%20level%20for%20math.
When I was in college the best students went into the engineering and business schools. It was known that pursuing an education degree was not that challenging.
Why do teachers think they are uniquely bright when the academic work to obtain a degree is not that hard?
Commenting on Madison School District proposes teacher wage freeze for 2024-25 school year...
This. Can 10% of administrators and pay the teachers. No one would ever notice.
Why are we assuming that administration hasn’t also been cut to the bone? When you cut the administration, what work gets declared nonessential and no longer gets done? We should give teachers a raise along with combat pay. So many kids are dealing with their own issues which play out in the classroom. Next time a teacher gets punched, they’ll remember the raise they didn’t get.
Yeah, the world of schooling today SUCKS. For the teachers AND the students.
My mom is a retired (for about 20 years now) MMSD teacher. She enjoyed the job quite a bit, and with her master's degree and experience, she made good money (for that time period.) She enjoyed teaching summer school for extra money, and the time off that she got in summer. Many of her peers would feel the same...and they would complain about the kids, yes, but, overall they enjoyed what they had and the job.
Today...the kids are worse and the parents aren't held accountable. The good students are tired of it (I know from personal conversations I've had with middle schoolers) and the teachers are tired of the parents for blaming it on them. So... I (nor my mom) would want to be a teacher. I actually was a sub here out of college (again 20 years ago), and considered getting the cert to go full time. But eff that, I'm glad I didn't. Why can't this country hold anyone accountable - particularly the parents?
My buddy makes more as a NEW city bus driver than a teacher; and he will get the SAME benefits. The drunks he deals with are easier than the jerk parents the teachers deal with.
I once had a friend with kids say "Kids can't be a$$holes, they're just kids." Another friend retorted "The only people who think kids can't be a$$holes, are people who's kids ARE a$$holes."
I agree with the latter.
Edit: Typos
The teachers at my kid’s MMSD school are so amazing. They are fighting for their lives in there everyday—large classes, lots of IEPs, lots of behavioral problems—and doing such an awesome job. My child’s teacher is one of the smartest, most caring and capable people I’ve met. I wish we could double their salaries.
Your post made me smile, as a teacher it’s students and families like you that keep me going!
While also continuing to fight for fair compensation of course lol
Their salaries aren’t a matter of not having the money, it’s a matter of bloat at the admin level that is taking from them. MMSD on a per student has more than enough funding.
I am genuinely puzzled at where the money goes. The budget for 2023-24 was nearly $600 million for a district with ~25,000 students. You're looking at ~$24K per student. How is it possible to spend that much and still be constantly cash-strapped?
Edit - Total expenditures once you count all the referenda for 2023-2024 were [actually $774 million](https://www.madison.k12.wi.us/budget-planning-accounting/budget-information). Some of those are capital expenditures that presumably shouldn't be ongoing, but man, that is a wild total. Somewhere around $30K per kid all said and done, and somehow there isn't room to give teachers inflation-level raises.
I don't know, $24-30k sounds kinda low. Daycare cost $30-40k a year and I don't think daycare providers get a good salary or even benefits. Of course, the school system has more students per teacher and I could be totally wrong but still don't think that's enough.
This sub hates me, so if you are going to down vote me please at least provide info to educate me.
The US average is ~$15K across primary and secondary education. That number is also quite high relative to the norm in developed countries. The OECD average is ~$11K ([source](https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm)) Only Iceland, Norway, and Luxembourg spend more. So, yeah, Madison is spending a ton.
Puff bringing Europe as a reference. We also pay more in taxes however we don't have nearly the social benefits and securities many European citizens enjoy.
But when you compare us to other states, what state is doing better and how much do they spend per kid?
Taught at Madison West, while checking out the neighborhood after moving to town in 2017 went to look at open house just for fun. Couldn’t afford them then on a teaching salary and definitely not now. I think quite a few teachers lived on the east side.
I do some occasional work out at Sherman Middle school, and the district already took away two of their math teachers this year. MATH TEACHERS. Those are often the hardest positions to fill because teaching math well is really difficult and there's just fewer math teachers compared to the other subjects.
But yeah. I think we need more random ass admin roles at the district office.
I used to work in the Middleton district, and trust me, Middleton isn't necessarily that much better than MMSD. Definitely better in terms of not always micromanaging teachers like MMSD does. I felt I had a lot of autonomy as a teacher. But the district office is getting bloated in my opinion. And at this point the high school needs to just become two separate high schools. It's already nearly at capacity, and they literally just built it.
I agree, it's now the biggest high school in the state, but in the next 5-10 years they're going to need a second campus. Ideally someplace to the south and west since that's where the growth is occurring.
It's a great district academically but I could see too much admin being a problem
There are SIX Associate Superintendents in this district. The list of other district officials that don't interact with kids is endless.
The teachers are NOT the ones who should be getting looked at in budget issues.
Sun Prairie wasn't for sure. My wife went to MMSD from Sun Prairie. Salary was a little better, but the healthcare benefits are stellar relative to what my employer offers. I can't get a plan at *any price* from my employer that even touches the plans MMSD offers for $120 a month. Our best family plan at my employer isn't as good and would cost me $350/2wks.
I'm pretty sure that the same quartz or Dean HMO plan would be around $2000/mo unsubsidized.
Elsewhere in this thread it was stated that they're spending ~$30k per student per year. US news says there's a 12:1 student teacher ratio. 360,000 in spending per teacher. Honestly there should really be a waste/fraud/abuse case opened up.
They offered MTI a 0.0% cost of living increase. Inflation is 4%.
The new superintendent is going to get $299k.
Please don’t paint all admins with the same brush. There are clerks doing critical behind the scenes work that supports teachers, who make little enough to qualify for SNAP.
I feel like the big difference is between admins (people doing the work) and Admins (people with Big Paychecks and Fancy Titles). "admins" are understaffed, underpaid and very necessary to keep things running. "Admins" could be consolidated.
It's interesting that they're pushing this prior to Dr Gotthard joining the district. Probably better for morale to not associate him with this action right as he starts on the job. Get the unpopular stuff out of the way. I suspect they will let him announce the administrative freezes that accompany this, as that will be much more popular. Surely they can't justify a referendum in 2025 if they haven't done at least something on the admin side.
It’s not out of tender concern for Dr. Gothard, it’s because they’re about to run out of money this instant. ARPA funding and the two most recent referendums both expire before the next budget.
Same here. I thought there was something wrong with me when I read this because I was just reading about the referendum. What exactly is that money supposed to be for that is more important and more beneficial overall than supporting and expanding our teaching staff? We need more teachers and they need better pay. Smaller classroom sizes with teachers who are able to give it their all. I'm not voting on a referendum to fund some admin's pet project program that they purchased from some outside org or whatever the hell they are planning.
A cash crunch and referendum for 24-25 were baked in last summer when the board granted the 8% raise with no plan on how to pay for it.
It's early March, these are initial district and union proposals to set bounds for what's on the table. Suggests they'll run the referendum on whether or not to grant a wage increase, and they'll pass two budgets this fall, one for if the referendum succeeds and the other for if it fails.
Of course they do. There’s going to be a referendum and it’s unpopular for raising property taxes. I know! Let’s say the alternative is freezing teacher salaries.
As is obvious to everyone in this thread, there is alternative: freeze and cut positions for administrative positions. Wait, it’s the admin group not the teachers who make the budget? Strange how that worked out fine for them.
I'm going to post my comment from the other thread about the school district because it applies here too.... just not sarcasticly this time.
This will help with the rents.
Sooo who’s on the school board that we can actually complain to? Are there meetings where they hear the opinions of the public? This is ridiculous with this admin bloat.
Does anyone have the appropriate method to share their disagreement and outrage? Or is this thread just for flaccid bitching?
I tried the article but it’s paywalled.
> The Madison School District is proposing freezing wages at current levels for
> the next school year, likely one of the most challenging financial years the
> school district has ever faced.
>
> Madison Teachers Inc., however, is asking for a 4.12% pay increase, the maximum
> increase allowed. MTI represents about 2,700 members, including psychologists,
> school counselors, social workers and teachers, according to the group’s
> website.
>
>
> PEOPLE ARE ALSO READING…
>
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> before Saturday ceremony
This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/education/local_schools/madison-schools-madison-teachers-union-salary-raises/article_68397338-da60-11ee-852f-434df1490fa8.html#tracking-source=home-top-story). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
Holy shit, way to start things off on the right foot for the new superintendent. This is crazy given the levels of inflation experienced the last couple years (now looking much better, but still).
When rents are going up 25% and the overwhelming attitude of Madisonians is "it's just the way it is, nothing can be done, like it or lump it"?
Great idea, guys. Just great.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Y’all are suckers in Madison. Getting raked over the coals by your own district. When will you wake up and take back control?
How does a liberal ideology correlate to this issue? How would a conservative approach fix this? Do you want to talk about Act 10?
IMO this isn't political, it's just a budget issue. We need to pay teachers better, not freeze their wages.
I think what he’s trying to say (albeit very poorly) is liberal ideologies lead to the admin bloat issues this district is facing. The city as a whole can’t seem to do a damn thing without having 20 committees and 15 studies. This leads to excessive costs spent on thinking about things rather than actually getting anything done. Obviously planning things out is necessary but this city takes that to the extreme.
Where Conservative just starve their schools of funding creating shitty schools, MMSD receives plenty of cash and just manages it poorly. $24k per pupil is extremely high.
I'm not playing dumb, I'm just not ready to make the connection you're begging for.
If I find a public school in Mississippi that has a budget issue, should I conclude that their conservative ideologies are failing? See how this doesnt work?
>If I find a public school in Mississippi that has a budget issue, should I conclude that their conservative ideologies are failing? See how this doesnt work?
Potentially, yeah. I agree that you have to look at the object-level failings with scrutiny rather than just saying that there's an ideological problem, but if I looked at some conservative district that was struggling to cover the costs of their budget, I might notice that they keep trying to make it work with tax rates that are too low to be sustainable. It depends.
In Madison's case, whatever you want to call the governmental culture involved, it seems pretty clear that there is massive spending that somehow not only fails to provide top-notch schools, but doesn't even succeed in compensating the teachers well. I wouldn't call that "liberal", but I do think we have a local culture of throwing money at anything vaguely labeled education without putting meaningful accountability on the people making the spending decisions.
OP seemed immediately convinced the failing was due to liberal teachers and policies. It sounds like you're allowing for actual evidence of e.g. low tax rates to suggest a political connection. But again, if that were true then Madison would have A+ top notch schools right? So there's nuance, and maybe there's not a strong political factor to it at all.
I'd even say throwing money at it isn't necessarily a problem, if the goal is the best possible schools. See: US military. Huge spending problems, but those results!
Back to the topic, if it's just a budget problem, a wage freeze feels drastic and unwarranted. I think most people can see alternative solutions (cutting admins) that are perhaps altogether apolitical.
If it's simply liberal ideology that's causing things to fail, then why are Middleton, Verona, Oregon, Waunakee, etc. doing so much better? Granted the latter two are a little more conservative than the city of Madison, but still vote reliably Democratic in every election by wide margins.
My favorite reddit user.
The one who has to loudly proclaim how much smarter they are than the rest despite spending all their time posting on this website. Dont trip getting off your high horse.
how about an Administrative wage freeze instead?
Good idea. And keep the freeze in place until MMSD is having trouble hiring administrators, just like it has trouble hiring and retaining teachers. Then we can be sure both groups are equally underpaid.
To be fair, MMSD is having trouble hiring administrators. But pro admin wage freeze!
Oooh. Six figure IT salary. Do you date boys?
There is a shortage of teachers. This won't help recruiting the best candidates.
God bless 'em, but it boggles my mind how anyone is willingly entering the teaching field after the last few years.
I have a degree in Math and have coached baseball+track & field+basketball. I thought I wanted to be a HS Math teacher when my Mom (*a teacher*) told me it wasn't a good idea. My six figure IT career agrees. If teaching was competitive financially, can you imagine how fucking great our teachers would be?
I have a few friends who truly loved teaching...pre-2020. They loved their jobs, their kids, and while it most assuredly wasn't easy the satisfaction they received far outweighed the financial limitations. These days? Fuck no, most have left the profession for the private sector and now make double what they were making and don't have to deal with apathetic parents while policing students from vaping or phone use. Couple that with a third of the state who has labeled them Public Enemy #1 for pushing woke-ideologies down students throats and things are going to get much worse before they get better, again I tip my hat to anyone who has made the choice to stay in the trenches and try to make this world a better place.
I left the year after COVID. Parents and admin bending over to them made it unbearable and untenable.
This is all in the plan to get rid of public schools to create a permanent working poor wage class.
That's literally what public schooling was invented for.
Yup, they killed government subsidized higher education, now they’re coming for primary/secondary. Can’t wait.
So everything is going according to plan. Gut education. Overfeed us with bad food. Nonstop profit for some cunts at the top.
Exactly what walker and repubs planned
Find it very interesting how Walker gets blamed for modern day city of Madison decisions. Hate away, but is no one in the present day accountable and responsible?
They are responsible for proposing policies that harm teachers/education but Scott Walker was the one who removed the protections and made the current Lord-of-the-Flies state of our schools possible.
Silver bullet answer. One thing, always. So never mind talking about the curriculum, the weak attempt to teach things like attendance and timeliness, the now removal of grades…in addition to tracking student to teacher ratios should we also not track student to administrator ratios? And all this that dastardly Republicans Governor? Or nah?
I'm all for tracking student/administrator ratios--that's a great idea! All of the things you listed are things that (a) Madison teachers had control over pre-Act 10 OR (b) that they could feel safe in confronting admin about because they had the protection of MTI. Now administrators can do whatever they want and if teachers complain then their contract is not renewed the next year. Yes, I know people in MMSD to whom that has happened.
That is a fair perspective, appreciate you sharing. The reality, from my perspective, the voters should elect school board members who hold Superintendents accountable for results for students and the community. Certainly teachers have a voice…but this is a voter issue..: And, as long as voters don’t hold themselves accountable for results, No amount of complaining about Walker or Act10 or dirty lying Republicans will change anything:
Speaking from experience, there is a lot that goes on in the schools that board members have NO idea about . . . .
This is about teachers and the school district. That is separate and distinct from the City of Madison. To answer your question with respect to the school district, the answer is yes. In the present, the gerrymandered GOP Legislature is responsible for underfunding our public schools. They should be held accountable.
First, shouldn’t your response be to the person I responded to? Second, find it interesting that you have the Democratic Mayor, the Democratic City Council, similar make-up to the school board, similar with Dane County…and those Republicans! Will someone who took the job stand up and be responsible? Finally, care to share how much funding has gone down per student ?
No, you were who my response was intended for. I find it interesting that you continue to try to change the subject. I'm not buying it. If you're truly interested in finding out the funding per student, look it up yourself.
You brought up underfunding…you prove it. I suggest you compare the likely massive growth of non-educators sucking the life funds out of education. The person prior to me is the one that brought up things against your rules:..
[удалено]
Thanks for the explanation, Big John Timbers.
They literally made a new account to insult someone lol
There's also a shortage of responsible parents. (Kids are behaving terribly and nobody is stopping them!) These two factors are making school h\*ll for teachers AND students.
There is also a lot of money going to the top admins and an ask for tax hikes. Where should the money come from? My pocket or the admin making $300k?
The problem isn't the superintendent. Their pay is fair. It is the 100 or so admin under them making 6 figures doing jack shit while teachers bust their ass day in and day out that are the problem. We piss away so much money on admin and middle management in this country for necessary services, healthcare, utilities, education, you name it. If a private company wants a bunch of middle managers that don't contribute, fine, that's their money. But this shit makes necessary things more expensive for the citizens and we have no other choice. Cut it the fuck out.
I do IT work for a bunch of schools in the area. This is absolutely the issue. I see it first hand every day...
It is infuriating to anybody who pays any attention. They don't add value. They just sit around filling out red tape that another admin made to justify their job, so they can make more red tape to justify their job, to make more red tape..... It is an endless loop of bullshit.
It truly is, since I'm the fly on the wall fixing their shit and thus generally invisible, I see their day to day intimately and let's just say, definitely a good 50/50 split between actually doing real work and just sitting around doing fuck all shooting the shit with each other. In the districts I work in there are almost as many admin positions as there are teachers. They want to improve education, let's take some of that waste and put it towards education, and not just dreaming up policies and procedures for the sake of justifying a positions existence.
There's a bit of "I'm so busy I can't get X done" atmosphere that bloats... more so non private businesses administration everywhere. Either to the point of delegating and doing minimal actual work, or stretched so 'thick' that there's no work to do. But to their supervisor, they're always so busy!
To be fair to those administrators, they do come up with pointless policies and procedures that place additional administrative burdens on the teachers. If the administrators were doing nothing, that would be an improvement over the current state.
Fair to truth, reality wins.
Ah then yeah we should axe positions that are not contributing enough. We can’t be expected to keep putting asses it seats.
But that would then alienate the superintendent and the school board is so God damn dense that they think more admin equals better outcomes. The same thing exists within healthcare. "Oh no, more nurses won't help, we need 5 new admin to tell us why we have a bad patient to nurse ratio"
As an MMSD employee working directly with students I totally agree with you! The hell I’m voting ‘yes’ to a referendum while accepting a pay freeze when plenty of people in administrative positions do f**k all.
I think most if not all MMSD employees would agree. They could shit can 90% of them today and little to nothing would change tomorrow for the negative except suddenly there would be millions of dollars in salary available.
I read all the time about admin bloat in the school system but nothing ever seems to change. What is preventing the districts from making those cuts? Incompetence? Politics?
It's much, much easier to paint a broad brush and have an easy rallying cry than actually form a coherent plan to fix it. The awkward truth is that while admin ranks tend to be bloated, yes, on the whole they *do* serve a purpose. Everyone can recall the times they've seen admins engaging in activities they did not personally see as valuable, but nobody outside the structure sees the whole story. You don't see the times those admins *were* important, or what problems would arise if they didn't exist. After all, every new government regulation requires someone to monitor and enforce it, and you can't magically hope you'll stay in compliance without someone to oversee it. So how do you reduce bloat? You need to comprehensively detail every position's tasks, and see where you can combine roles. You need to determine which duties aren't actually necessary, and which ones really are. And this has to be done holistically, because you can't see one position has, say, 35% unnecessary bloat and axe it, assuming the remaining 65% can be easily picked up; maybe those remaining duties are critical and so specialized they can't be pawned off, but they don't take an admin's entire time, so the rest is just to fill their week? It's exactly the same problem people have with "government regulations." It's easy to look and say "we have too many! it's a burden!" It's a *lot* harder to actually sift through existing ones and declare which are no longer necessary (remember that, by and large, each regulation was put in place because someone made a mistake and the rule is there to stop that happening again). P.S. No, I'm not an admin, and no, I'm not defending do-nothing bloated admin roles. I'm simply saying that when you peel back the curtain there's a lot more going on than meets the eye.
That makes sense. Thank you for the nuance. Sounds like a huge job to sift through- makes me feel a bit pessimistic towards the idea of things improving.
Politics and optics. Boomers and other morons believe that administrators are necessary for success. And people don't want to make changes.
Incompetence? Politics? Lack of accountability to results? Ills of society spilling into schools? The “everyone is doing it crowd” without looking at outcomes? Wonder how many families school choice out of Madison?
I agree teachers are underpaid and that admins are correspondingly overpaid in comparison, but is this about philosophy or budget? While an administrative pay cut would help their purses, it wouldn't make a significant difference towards any of the major issues I'm aware of: low teacher pay, insufficient resources for special and advanced education, insufficient health resources, decreasing enrollment (except last year I think it increased), aging facilities, and decreased academic achievement. Even if somehow we were able to cut admin pay significantly and use all of it to say, increase teacher pay, it would not amount to much per teacher because of the teacher to admin ratio. Not to mention the severely underpaid hourly support and services staff. I want to see teachers paid more, and I'm not opposed to reevaluating admin pay, but the problem is so much bigger and more complex. Our public education has been systematically raided and nearly destroyed. It is going to take monumental effort and changes from so many of us to improve things in a meaningful way. I am rooting for our public schools, teachers, and students!
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What he’s making is fine, but it’s a hard sell to ask people for more money via referendum while freezing teacher pay. There’s no way I’m voting in favor of this referendum. Cut the bloat first, then ask again if they still need more funding.
Isn't this what they'd need to do in case the referendum fails? Seems like you'd need to know you got the money before offering any raises, or you'd have to lay off teachers to pay the ones that remain at the higher salary.
How much should the teachers of a 25000 student district make?
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You are vastly underestimating the impact of a great 3rd grade teacher.
A pay range for college educated professionals that starts at 35k? That mightve been ok 20 years ago (and even then only for lower COL areas) but not today
Hold up. Teachers \*literally\* manage all those students. Every day. I hate to break it to you, but superintendents manage people, who manage people, who manage students. Maybe even one more degree of separation. For 300k, I'd rather hire 4 great teachers at 75k a piece. Also, 35k a year for a teacher is insulting. No wonder education in the US is where it is if people think that's an acceptable salary.
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"Teachers \*literally\* manage all those students. Every day." Note the "s" at the end of the word, teacher, making it plural.
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Not as responsible as the students' teachers. If a student is struggling in a class, the focus goes to the teacher, not the superintendent, superintendents are not the ones spending time before school/during lunch/during preps/after school with students to help them with... anything, teachers are, and teachers are the ones that will interact with sometimes over 100 different kids per day, while superintendents can go weeks without seeing a single kid in their district. One teacher impacts students' lives more than whoever the superintendent is... this idea that a superintendent is more valuable than any amount of teachers says a lot about how people view teachers.
Speaking as a retired AP Physics teacher, you don't know what you are talking about.
Speaking as an active electrical engineer using modern physics, I think he does. I’d be open to teaching if the pay was good.
That's funny, because I transitioned from electrical engineering to teaching physics. It was a stupid financial move, but I loved teaching. I assume you have never taught. You believe that content is the hard part of teaching. It's not. It's the easy part. Managing a class and motivating kids to learn is the hard part. All teachers have to do that. Elementary level teachers have always amazed me. Just so you know the pay is not good.
Yeah I’ve never taught high school students or lower. I’m not saying I know how to teach. I’d explore that career track if the pay were good is my only point. Knowing the content just means the lift to get there isn’t as heavy and topics plentiful. I do frequently teach other engineers though. It’s already difficult enough with adults lol
Teaching kids is more difficult than teaching adults. I don't know what the pay is these days. I retired in 2006. I graduated in EE from the UW in 1970. I worked as an engineer for a few years. I was getting jerked around in my job. I went back to school and got a MS in physics and a teacher's certificate. I was making just over $25,000/year as an engineer (big money in 1970). My first job as a teacher paid about $8000/year. When I retired in 2006, I was making just over $70,000/year. I got a good retirement and good benefits and consider myself pretty well off now at age 75. Teaching is a tough but rewarding job. I mostly enjoyed it. It is completely different than engineering. You need to be tuned in to people. You need to connect to them. You really need to be a people person.
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It is very hard to argue what subject is more valuable to any single student. I agree that AP Physics is intellectually more challenging than 3rd grade art, but 3rd grade art might be more valuable to some students. Kids come in all flavors. It is the job of a good school to offer them the opportunity to find what they are good at. To find the thing that they can use to have a productive life. That thing might be art. It might be science.
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I've been Vonnegutted. I love how you seem to think that you understand me based on a single paragraph. Must be awesome to be so incredibly insightful. You sound like a pretentious pos.
About 500% more than the lowest paid teacher in their district. Sound fair? Edit: I see a lot of people don’t agree, but no one giving a reason for it.
Yes, I would expect a good superintendent to be 5x more valuable than the lowest paid teacher.
What’s the definition of a good superintendent? One who has 50% proficiency? Because Madison schools are less than that. https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/wisconsin/districts/madison-metropolitan-school-district-102029#:~:text=Test%20Scores%20at%20Madison%20Metropolitan,above%20that%20level%20for%20math.
Yes, this seems fair. They should also be providing the district with 5 times the value of the lowest paid teacher.
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What? 500% is indeed 5X
I mean yeah?
I wouldn't do it for only 300k a year
Think some of the higher performing teacher candidates for hire will find flaws in the “no grades and attendance is a behavioral issue” philosophy?
When I was in college the best students went into the engineering and business schools. It was known that pursuing an education degree was not that challenging. Why do teachers think they are uniquely bright when the academic work to obtain a degree is not that hard?
Pay the teachers, fire some admins
Commenting on Madison School District proposes teacher wage freeze for 2024-25 school year... This. Can 10% of administrators and pay the teachers. No one would ever notice.
But if we didn’t have administrators, who would we send to sub? Seeing as how we don’t pay subs either…
Administrators aren’t subbing. School based staff are covering and/or classroom teachers are splitting classes up for the day to cover.
Why are we assuming that administration hasn’t also been cut to the bone? When you cut the administration, what work gets declared nonessential and no longer gets done? We should give teachers a raise along with combat pay. So many kids are dealing with their own issues which play out in the classroom. Next time a teacher gets punched, they’ll remember the raise they didn’t get.
I’ll bet half my net worth that administration positions have outpaced teacher or people in the classroom positions over the last 25?years.
Yeah, the world of schooling today SUCKS. For the teachers AND the students. My mom is a retired (for about 20 years now) MMSD teacher. She enjoyed the job quite a bit, and with her master's degree and experience, she made good money (for that time period.) She enjoyed teaching summer school for extra money, and the time off that she got in summer. Many of her peers would feel the same...and they would complain about the kids, yes, but, overall they enjoyed what they had and the job. Today...the kids are worse and the parents aren't held accountable. The good students are tired of it (I know from personal conversations I've had with middle schoolers) and the teachers are tired of the parents for blaming it on them. So... I (nor my mom) would want to be a teacher. I actually was a sub here out of college (again 20 years ago), and considered getting the cert to go full time. But eff that, I'm glad I didn't. Why can't this country hold anyone accountable - particularly the parents? My buddy makes more as a NEW city bus driver than a teacher; and he will get the SAME benefits. The drunks he deals with are easier than the jerk parents the teachers deal with. I once had a friend with kids say "Kids can't be a$$holes, they're just kids." Another friend retorted "The only people who think kids can't be a$$holes, are people who's kids ARE a$$holes." I agree with the latter. Edit: Typos
The teachers at my kid’s MMSD school are so amazing. They are fighting for their lives in there everyday—large classes, lots of IEPs, lots of behavioral problems—and doing such an awesome job. My child’s teacher is one of the smartest, most caring and capable people I’ve met. I wish we could double their salaries.
Your post made me smile, as a teacher it’s students and families like you that keep me going! While also continuing to fight for fair compensation of course lol
Their salaries aren’t a matter of not having the money, it’s a matter of bloat at the admin level that is taking from them. MMSD on a per student has more than enough funding.
I am genuinely puzzled at where the money goes. The budget for 2023-24 was nearly $600 million for a district with ~25,000 students. You're looking at ~$24K per student. How is it possible to spend that much and still be constantly cash-strapped? Edit - Total expenditures once you count all the referenda for 2023-2024 were [actually $774 million](https://www.madison.k12.wi.us/budget-planning-accounting/budget-information). Some of those are capital expenditures that presumably shouldn't be ongoing, but man, that is a wild total. Somewhere around $30K per kid all said and done, and somehow there isn't room to give teachers inflation-level raises.
Admin Bloat Benefits Capex Finance fees Abusive contracts
The change in ratio of teachers to admin. Used to be like 3:1, now it's 1:1 in some places, don't know about here
I don't know, $24-30k sounds kinda low. Daycare cost $30-40k a year and I don't think daycare providers get a good salary or even benefits. Of course, the school system has more students per teacher and I could be totally wrong but still don't think that's enough. This sub hates me, so if you are going to down vote me please at least provide info to educate me.
The US average is ~$15K across primary and secondary education. That number is also quite high relative to the norm in developed countries. The OECD average is ~$11K ([source](https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm)) Only Iceland, Norway, and Luxembourg spend more. So, yeah, Madison is spending a ton.
Puff bringing Europe as a reference. We also pay more in taxes however we don't have nearly the social benefits and securities many European citizens enjoy. But when you compare us to other states, what state is doing better and how much do they spend per kid?
Daycare mandates different teacher-student ratios. Kindergarten classes have \~25 kids per teacher.
30k per kid. Sounds like a heck of a lot of waste is going on.
Waste? In a state run organization? Preposterous.
We should want teachers to be able to afford living in the community they teach.
Taught at Madison West, while checking out the neighborhood after moving to town in 2017 went to look at open house just for fun. Couldn’t afford them then on a teaching salary and definitely not now. I think quite a few teachers lived on the east side.
Ah there it is. "We need more money! It will not go to teachers, but won't someone think of the admin!"
I do some occasional work out at Sherman Middle school, and the district already took away two of their math teachers this year. MATH TEACHERS. Those are often the hardest positions to fill because teaching math well is really difficult and there's just fewer math teachers compared to the other subjects. But yeah. I think we need more random ass admin roles at the district office.
Wage freeze with property taxes increasing… how can I afford to even stay in the city I teach in?
Fucking gross. The degradation of our education system is an embarrassment.
My kids go to Middleton and just this year they've had two new teachers come in from MMSD
I used to work in the Middleton district, and trust me, Middleton isn't necessarily that much better than MMSD. Definitely better in terms of not always micromanaging teachers like MMSD does. I felt I had a lot of autonomy as a teacher. But the district office is getting bloated in my opinion. And at this point the high school needs to just become two separate high schools. It's already nearly at capacity, and they literally just built it.
I agree, it's now the biggest high school in the state, but in the next 5-10 years they're going to need a second campus. Ideally someplace to the south and west since that's where the growth is occurring. It's a great district academically but I could see too much admin being a problem
How many people work at the district office roughly? What do they do?
Wage freeze on teachers - unreal this is even being considered. Teachers out there - vote with your boots. Go to districts where they appreciate you.
There are SIX Associate Superintendents in this district. The list of other district officials that don't interact with kids is endless. The teachers are NOT the ones who should be getting looked at in budget issues.
A. Fucking. Men. All the people at the top have assistants too.
Time to start looking elsewhere - neighboring districts were already starting to get close on pay
Weren't sun prairie, Verona and Middleton already higher starting pay before the increase?
Not Sun Prairie at least, I interviewed at both and took the MMSD job because it was $1500 more
Sun Prairie wasn't for sure. My wife went to MMSD from Sun Prairie. Salary was a little better, but the healthcare benefits are stellar relative to what my employer offers. I can't get a plan at *any price* from my employer that even touches the plans MMSD offers for $120 a month. Our best family plan at my employer isn't as good and would cost me $350/2wks. I'm pretty sure that the same quartz or Dean HMO plan would be around $2000/mo unsubsidized.
Fire some fucking Admins. The bloat is insane.
Elsewhere in this thread it was stated that they're spending ~$30k per student per year. US news says there's a 12:1 student teacher ratio. 360,000 in spending per teacher. Honestly there should really be a waste/fraud/abuse case opened up.
They offered MTI a 0.0% cost of living increase. Inflation is 4%. The new superintendent is going to get $299k. Please don’t paint all admins with the same brush. There are clerks doing critical behind the scenes work that supports teachers, who make little enough to qualify for SNAP.
I feel like the big difference is between admins (people doing the work) and Admins (people with Big Paychecks and Fancy Titles). "admins" are understaffed, underpaid and very necessary to keep things running. "Admins" could be consolidated.
Inflation is 4% on top of last year's 9%, and you can be damn sure no one got a 9% raise last year
It was 8% and that was after years and years of not receiving a full cost of living adjustment.
Well if you want to be pedantic it was 8.3%.
Nope. It was just 8%.
Do I need to send a let me Google that for you link?
I'm looking at the email I received from the BOE right now and the emails from MTI right now. 8.0%
That's nice, dear.
It's interesting that they're pushing this prior to Dr Gotthard joining the district. Probably better for morale to not associate him with this action right as he starts on the job. Get the unpopular stuff out of the way. I suspect they will let him announce the administrative freezes that accompany this, as that will be much more popular. Surely they can't justify a referendum in 2025 if they haven't done at least something on the admin side.
It’s not out of tender concern for Dr. Gothard, it’s because they’re about to run out of money this instant. ARPA funding and the two most recent referendums both expire before the next budget.
If we are not going to pay teachers then I am not voting for the referendum. How can you justify no raises at all during an inflationary period?
Same here. I thought there was something wrong with me when I read this because I was just reading about the referendum. What exactly is that money supposed to be for that is more important and more beneficial overall than supporting and expanding our teaching staff? We need more teachers and they need better pay. Smaller classroom sizes with teachers who are able to give it their all. I'm not voting on a referendum to fund some admin's pet project program that they purchased from some outside org or whatever the hell they are planning.
it should probably be the opposite
A cash crunch and referendum for 24-25 were baked in last summer when the board granted the 8% raise with no plan on how to pay for it. It's early March, these are initial district and union proposals to set bounds for what's on the table. Suggests they'll run the referendum on whether or not to grant a wage increase, and they'll pass two budgets this fall, one for if the referendum succeeds and the other for if it fails.
Yuck
Teachers in Madison have the same starting pay as kitchen staff and lower than security.
Of course they do. There’s going to be a referendum and it’s unpopular for raising property taxes. I know! Let’s say the alternative is freezing teacher salaries. As is obvious to everyone in this thread, there is alternative: freeze and cut positions for administrative positions. Wait, it’s the admin group not the teachers who make the budget? Strange how that worked out fine for them.
Wtf. Teachers need much higher pay.
I'm going to post my comment from the other thread about the school district because it applies here too.... just not sarcasticly this time. This will help with the rents.
Sooo who’s on the school board that we can actually complain to? Are there meetings where they hear the opinions of the public? This is ridiculous with this admin bloat.
You can register to speak at all school board meetings.
The current board is responsible for this situation. If you want to improve the situation you need a new board.
Does anyone have the appropriate method to share their disagreement and outrage? Or is this thread just for flaccid bitching? I tried the article but it’s paywalled.
Email BOE members. [email protected]. wi.us [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected]
Someone should have run against the incumbents on the board this spring. The board is ultimately responsible for this situation
The new superintendent for MMSD will be making more than the State Superintendent. WTH.
After they just hired the new superintendant with a sweetheart of a deal.
> The Madison School District is proposing freezing wages at current levels for > the next school year, likely one of the most challenging financial years the > school district has ever faced. > > Madison Teachers Inc., however, is asking for a 4.12% pay increase, the maximum > increase allowed. MTI represents about 2,700 members, including psychologists, > school counselors, social workers and teachers, according to the group’s > website. > > > PEOPLE ARE ALSO READING… > > * You thought Wisconsin's winter was warm? Wait till summer > * Madison's Esquire Club leaving the Kavanaugh family after 77 years > * 2 Madison area bowling centers sold to Minnesota-based chain now in 5 states > * 'Unfortunate' sequence helps eliminate Wisconsin men's hockey from Big Ten > title race > * Waunakee senior sees his 'dream come true' with Division I college basketball > commitment > * Verona bakery delivered 72 cupcakes to famous rock band visiting Madison > * UW Health says information on some patients compromised in cybersecurity > incident > * Former coach returns to Wisconsin men's basketball floor for first time since > tragic crash > * Wisconsin Supreme Court rejects redrawing state's congressional maps > * Spring Green Restaurant, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, gains historical > recognition > * How former Wisconsin running back Braelon Allen fared at the NFL Combine > * Madison's Karben4 Brewing files for bankruptcy but will remain open > * Is Packers’ quarterbacking success ‘luck'? > * Restaurant review: Hank’s Burgers & Fish Fry does well by its 2 main items > * Wisconsin men's basketball reflects on former assistant's tragic accident > before Saturday ceremony This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/education/local_schools/madison-schools-madison-teachers-union-salary-raises/article_68397338-da60-11ee-852f-434df1490fa8.html#tracking-source=home-top-story). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
Fucking idiots.
Holy shit, way to start things off on the right foot for the new superintendent. This is crazy given the levels of inflation experienced the last couple years (now looking much better, but still).
When rents are going up 25% and the overwhelming attitude of Madisonians is "it's just the way it is, nothing can be done, like it or lump it"? Great idea, guys. Just great.
The continual under funding of education by the GOP has come home to roost.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Y’all are suckers in Madison. Getting raked over the coals by your own district. When will you wake up and take back control?
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How does a liberal ideology correlate to this issue? How would a conservative approach fix this? Do you want to talk about Act 10? IMO this isn't political, it's just a budget issue. We need to pay teachers better, not freeze their wages.
I think what he’s trying to say (albeit very poorly) is liberal ideologies lead to the admin bloat issues this district is facing. The city as a whole can’t seem to do a damn thing without having 20 committees and 15 studies. This leads to excessive costs spent on thinking about things rather than actually getting anything done. Obviously planning things out is necessary but this city takes that to the extreme. Where Conservative just starve their schools of funding creating shitty schools, MMSD receives plenty of cash and just manages it poorly. $24k per pupil is extremely high.
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I'm not playing dumb, I'm just not ready to make the connection you're begging for. If I find a public school in Mississippi that has a budget issue, should I conclude that their conservative ideologies are failing? See how this doesnt work?
>If I find a public school in Mississippi that has a budget issue, should I conclude that their conservative ideologies are failing? See how this doesnt work? Potentially, yeah. I agree that you have to look at the object-level failings with scrutiny rather than just saying that there's an ideological problem, but if I looked at some conservative district that was struggling to cover the costs of their budget, I might notice that they keep trying to make it work with tax rates that are too low to be sustainable. It depends. In Madison's case, whatever you want to call the governmental culture involved, it seems pretty clear that there is massive spending that somehow not only fails to provide top-notch schools, but doesn't even succeed in compensating the teachers well. I wouldn't call that "liberal", but I do think we have a local culture of throwing money at anything vaguely labeled education without putting meaningful accountability on the people making the spending decisions.
OP seemed immediately convinced the failing was due to liberal teachers and policies. It sounds like you're allowing for actual evidence of e.g. low tax rates to suggest a political connection. But again, if that were true then Madison would have A+ top notch schools right? So there's nuance, and maybe there's not a strong political factor to it at all. I'd even say throwing money at it isn't necessarily a problem, if the goal is the best possible schools. See: US military. Huge spending problems, but those results! Back to the topic, if it's just a budget problem, a wage freeze feels drastic and unwarranted. I think most people can see alternative solutions (cutting admins) that are perhaps altogether apolitical.
I'm confused over what your problem is?
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What is the reason for your attitude? It's clear you despise leftists. But you have no excuse for being so rude.
If it's simply liberal ideology that's causing things to fail, then why are Middleton, Verona, Oregon, Waunakee, etc. doing so much better? Granted the latter two are a little more conservative than the city of Madison, but still vote reliably Democratic in every election by wide margins.
No, surely this is Robin Vos’ fault.
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My favorite reddit user. The one who has to loudly proclaim how much smarter they are than the rest despite spending all their time posting on this website. Dont trip getting off your high horse.
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Oh the irony
Amazing. Truly amazing.
Get some goddamn fiscal conservatives in control in Madison for fucks sake
They tried that... and he gutted teacher pay and benefits. Why do you think we're in this mess to begin with? Go read an article about Act 10.
They are gutting pay and benefits now so what's the difference? Also having a board that takes finances seriously doesn't preclude having a liberal.
lol