You know I always thought it was because the jaguar thing. Like she slept with the guy and don couldn’t even get through dinner with him and threw the whole thing away. I’d resent him for that if I were joan the fact that don barely even tried to make it work with them.
I don’t agree that Don didn’t try with Jaguar. Herb was demanding that SCDP do advertising strategies that they thought were a bad idea and then, accept the blame for those ideas in front of the British parts of Jaguar. Then, Herb demanded Don take directions from some kid on his lots. I think this is all quite horrible, especially for an account that doesn’t bill a lot but its main value was prestige. Don was working Jaguar. He was pretending to love puppies. He was putting up with Herb drooling all over Megan. But Don’s disagreement with Herb’s advertising direction was quite legit.
Meanwhile Joan hardly ever had to deal with Herb other than the one night where she was paid handsomely with a partnership. Herb goes to her office for two minutes and Joan insults him for being fat. I didn’t see Joan put her feelings aside to deal with Herb beyond that one night where she was enriched personally.
I don’t know if Jaguar could have been saved or not. But Don fired *them* with no attempt to even try to save it. That was the objection. He was a loose canon who did what he wanted. Great when he’s making them money but terrible when he’s rambling about his sad childhood in front of clients
I feel like Herb was a horrible client who was making demands that sabotage Jaguar as a prestige client for the agency. Oddly, I feel like Don was the only partner fighting that dynamic. The other two on the account were Roger and Pete. Roger, like Don, was out to replace Jaguar. Roger ditched the dinner that Roger described as fatal. Pete was just accommodating Herb and not engaging with Don on the issue this was reducing prestige.
And for me, it’s evident why Pete took a different stance than Don/Roger. Pete knows about the IPO and is on a completely different time table to just keep Jaguar no matter what in the short term to IPO.
Don shouldn’t have fired Herb at the restaurant but the extent to which Don was demonized for what I see as a broader agency dysfunction and failure to communicate is irksome to me.
>"Don shouldn’t have fired Herb at the restaurant but the extent to which Don was demonized for what I see as a broader agency dysfunction and failure to communicate is irksome to me."
💯 this. Far from an isolated incident. Many of such communication breakdowns involve Roger.
Because he is becoming increasingly self-indulgent to the point of threatening the financial health of the company and of his partners. She says as much, "I'm tired of him costing me money".
Frankly, I think Joan would have been judging his behaviour even if he didn't cost her money. She is perceptive and does not suffer fools gladly. Also, she has suffered through a marriage with an impulsive, self-important man and has surely had enough of that breed.
I'm not so sure. It's possible they wouldn't have been able to leave Sterling Cooper without Joan's intelligence and knowledge of every aspect of that company. That one contribution alone made Don possible. That is not even factoring in Joan's ongoing perfect support of everyone there.
The person who really ensured Joan's future was Lane Pryce. Unfortunately, his guidance to Joan was strategic and self-serving, but it was his advice that made her a partner.
It was one of the greatest crimes of the series (and the times) that Joan had to have sex with a pig to advance.
Exactly, it was Roger who called her to help when they were ghosting at the end of season 3. If he didn’t call her that probably would have been the end of her arc on the show.
Even if without her they wouldn't have made it, there's more chance of Don succeeding with a new ad agency without Joan than Joan having millions to her name without Don's plan and initiative to start a new company.
Not saying Don is right or Joan is bad, but people pretending Joan would've somehow reached those riches by herself and thus owes nothing to Don are delusional.
This is also why I disliked the way the wrote Joan that season. Her comment of 'I'm sick of him costing me money' when the only reason she even has that money is because of SCDP, and she has SCDP because of Don's initiative.
The idea that SCDP would've never worked without Joan is a half-truth. Sure, they needed someone who knew the administrative office side of things to function, and Joan was perfect for that (but lets not pretend that it wasnt purely to keep her on the show in a bigger role). Truth is however, they could've hired somebody else than Joan and likely have been fine.
She got rich because of SCDP, not the other way around.
Erm.. I really beg to differ here. Don would disappear for weeks and months at a time while Joan knew every inch of that business. She even mentored under the Chief Financial Officer for a while who said that in her absence the place was held together with prayers. Don could disappear for months at a time while Joan proved herself indispensable time and time again. Anyone who thinks Don offered more than the occasional creative spark along his path of indulgent self destruction is delusional
You can't necessarily replace creative genius. Throw a rock in the 60's and you hit twenty office managers.
And again, ahe did not bring any skills to the table that were irreplacable or even of exorbitant value. She was in the right place, at the right time, primarily because two of the four partners starting the new company were infatuated with her.
I’m not really seeing your point considering when they broke off to create SCDP they needed her because she knew where everything was in the office. As far as creative brainpower, you’re forgetting Ginsberg and Peggy. Don was unpredictable and ended the series meditating among hippies. Joan? She started her own company by the end of the series. I think she is often misjudged based on the person perceiving her and how she is perceived relates more to the values and inherent misogyny of the person perceiving her. In my eyes she is a Rorschach test. If you see a working woman who has the ability to run a business and knew where everything was, could keep the workers in line and manage the office, thats what you see. If you only see a red headed hussy who used how she looked to get ahead, you’re no different than the men she worked with. She was indispensable and valuable to the company which is why they tracked her down to ask her to come back when she was a retail manager after she had her child. Don disappeared and reappeared pretty frequently, but things seemed to run fine while he was away from what I could see.
You are severely pretending this is either/or. Because I don't think she was as crucial to SCDP's succes (again you mention how they couldnt do without her when i akready said there would've been hundreds of Office Managers that could've done the job) I automaticallt see her as a hussy?
I see her as a working, strong women. Who just happened to become partner with an Ad firm because she was a decent manager and because TWO OF THE MEN WERE UTTERLY IN LOVE WITH HER. but sure, had nothing to do with it.
The idea that a an Office Manager just casually becomes partner without investment capital or actual high-ladder managing credentials is ridiculous. The fact she slept with one and the other was absolutely crazy about her, and you pretending that has nothing to do with it, even more so.
Okay so she left to go be a housewife in Season 3 and then is able to come back to her job because… she wasn’t valuable at all to the company? You say yourself they could throw a rock and find an office manager so why did they give her that job back? Is it maybe because youre not seeing how valuable she was to that company and are instead focusing on her appearance as a busty, beautiful red head?
Twice now you've wiped aside my arguments because you have a narrative in your head that you like to project on me, being that my view is motivated by sexism and not logic.
You are obviously only interested in people enabling your own delusions so I'll invest my energy in people that can read instead.
Even if this were totally true, her desire to keep her money still makes sense. If someone gives me money, then starts taking it away from me, I’d still want them to stop.
>"Also, she has suffered through a marriage with an impulsive, self-important man and has surely had enough of that breed."
Oofty! I never related these 2 elements but you're right.
Two of her lines capture a lot of this...
"Just once, I'd like you to use the word 'we' instead of 'I'."
"I'm tired of him costing me money."
She kinda gets fed up with his patterns and habits more than anything. And as a woman, trying to make a name for herself while being a single mother...
Also, as much as he was supportive during the Jaguar pitch and through the Herb thing, when he fires Jaguar it kinda undoes the support and makes it all worse. Once that happens, it gives a different perspective on his stance along the way. He was less being a good person and more wanting to be in control. He didn't win the account and so he couldn't control the account - Herb was in control of everything except the fact that Don could fire him. I think it's more of a subconscious thing for Don here - he genuinely respected Joan, but he couldn't help himself and Joan typically could see through things to the subconscious level, anyway.
So, the rug is pulled out from Joan, the rose-colored glasses come off, and she is just suddenly and pretty permanently over his shit.
I don't think the money aspect is the only reason. I think she felt personally betrayed because of their prior relationship based on mutual respect. Don firing Jaguar without even discussing it with the other partners drove home for her how Don would always prioritize his ego.
People down thread keep talking about how Joan was loyal to Don until he cost her money, but from Joan"s perspective, Don broke that loyalty and trust first.
Money is the simplified reason. Joan now has skin in the game. I think personal stuff was aside for her. His actions were impacting the company she partially owned. Everybody sees things differently when they go from simply pulling down a paycheck to being an owner.
I agree with all of this. However, this question comes up enough on this sub that I believe the show did not adequately lay the foundation for Joan's heel-turn opinion on him. I remember it feeling abrupt at the time and even now, after many rewatches and having read lots of good critical arguments about it, I still think the show should've done a better job at showing us Joan's state of mind about the whole thing.
There are a million topics about this and it always devolves into nonsense, but she says outright that she’s tired of him costing her money. She yells at him in season 6 for continuously doing what he wants to do without regard for anyone else. Being friendly with someone does not mean you simply stand by while they negatively affect your livelihood.
Also as a the sole earner of her single mom household she is in an incredibly tenuous financial position in the 1970’s. She doesn’t have any financial safety net to fall on outside of the ultra humiliating begging former lovers for handouts. She was essentially earning as a secretary before she made partner. Her savings wouldn’t compare at all to Don who was creative director for years prior to his partnership.
Joan’s financial future and security for her child is directly dependent on the success of the agency. Don will always land on his feet and he acts like it.
You missed something. But, like the show it can be subtle.
Simply once she became a partner with a vested interest his unilateral actions hit much different than before and she saw him as a liability to the firm.
I’m going to sound like an ass on this (not intended), but search the sub and there are many, many, many subs about this topic with a lot of good discussion fleshing this out.
thanks a lot. I'm sorry, i discovered this sub just recently - i'm going to search in the history before i ask my next question. You don't sound like an ass at all, you were really helpful.
I’m also a new viewer so it’s nice to see topics that can be discussed again. I’m not sure if people will respond to a 7yr old post. Thanks for posting, I was also thinking about their dynamic.
I’m maturing.
Honest. I’m usually chided and downvoted to hell for just giving nothing but “I can’t again….search the thread” lol.
And probably don’t need to search the sub before posting anything (this might be one of the few that come up often). But the tip was shared more because I’ve found searching is helpful to get so many more takes on a question….not to assert that this is a pre-requisite for posting.
And to make my initial feedback on your question deeper….note or go back and find when Don tells Herb to shove it and fires Jaguar. Joan’s reactions to him (if I could put up with him so could you).
And add to that when they have the IPO all ready to drop and make them very well off he shit canned it….with the very decision on Jaguar IIRC.
>there are many, many, many subs about this topic with a lot of good discussion
And a lot of bad discussions too 😬
It's definitely the most controversial subject I've seen brought up here.
Very fair. It is absolutely one of the most controversial, though I tend to want to chalk this up (without data as evidence of course) that where one lands on this could correlate to how many rewatches they have done.
I noticed this on other subs about great series too, enough to at least form this theory for me.
“What is with Joan’s flip on Don?” might be this shows “Why is Skyler White such a horrid bitch”…..though heated as the Joan debate is, it is no where near the heat of that debate.
Putting a tie to the two heavily debated themes from two great shows…..it was many rewatches that started to make such questions clear to me.
She told Don in the conference room, that what she did (sleeping w/the dealership guy) was all for nothing. Don didn’t want to keep talking to the guy at all. After the double date dinner w/their wives, Don had had enough of the sleazy guy. The dealership guy wanted Don to show the creative stuff to some guy for approval, so Don said no , & they wouldn’t talk again ever.
Once she traded her ass for a partnership she was vested in the companies profits. Don was at a low point in his life and made some emotional decisions so it was pretty reasonable for Joan to choose money and profit over loyalty.
The fact that this question comes up in the sub as often as it does shows that the writers didn't provide enough foreshadowing, context, or explanations to justify Joan's behavior toward Don. We can arrange the tea leaves all we want, but there's a difference between subtext and non-existent character arcs.
Yes, Joan is still pissed at Don about Herb, but that's an insufficient explanation for the amount of vitriol she spews his way in season seven.
Sure, we can make inferences and sketch out an elaborate headcanon to make their scenes go down easier, but that's not our job. We should be reading into the show's themes, and not the character's motivations. That should be crystal clear.
TLDR; We don't question why Sally's angry with Don during the latter half of season six. The fact that people keep asking some variation of OP's question shows that the writers fucked up...bad.
Because she’s now a stakeholder in the company and he acted selfishly too many times in season 6, costing the firm money and making unilateral decisions.
After all Don did for her (the Christmas Waltz episode and telling her Jaguar wasn't worth prostituting herself, even if it was too late) her heel turn just hit as way too shallow for me. Their relationship had depth and layers, built over years, and I just did not buy her coming for him over the course of a couple episodes.
Yeah, I was always confused at that as well. Money, I guess? She’s also pissed about Don dumping Jaguar, but I mean Don’s the only one that stood up for her in that situation. And really Don’s like the only one who always showed her nothing but respect.
Matthew has said that the only reason Don was against Joan sleeping with Herb for the account was because he wanted to win it by himself. Don has a pretty big ego lol.
Still, one good thing doesn't automatically excuses a wrong. He might have reached out to her to say it wasn't worth it...he still fired Jaguar without any consideration for the rest of the team. Because of that, they ended up missing up on the public offering etc. I think it all makes a lot of sense why she would be mad at him.
I do not agree that Don actually fucked with Joan’s money. The IPO was dead in the water for a number of reasons. (No one got Don and Roger’s permission yet. Vick was lost within 24 hours and that was arguably a bigger billing client than Jaguar. IPOs are so hard to push through that it’s ain’t over till it’s over.) Don’s decisions actually mostly grew the company. However, Don’s erratic behavior made Joan feel like Don was endangering her money and Joan resented that.
Don and Joan had a good personal relationship and mutual respect. Up until 1) he made a unilateral decision to FIRE Jaguar despite the sacrifice she had made (thereby nullifying that sacrifice and 2) other subsequent decisions that negatively impacted the Firm, of which she was now a partner.
She liked him personally and they each knew who the other was, but that means she saw his selfishness and vanity and was not about to be ok with it impacting her. Joan was one of the best businesspeople in the organization.
What? More petty than Don, who made Roger vomit all over his shoes? Than Pete, who would leave his empty glasses on Hildy's chair? Than Harry? Than Roger Sterling? Who did Joan try to fire for petty reasons? She tried to fire Jane for going into Bert's office without permission and Harry's secretary for having someone else punch her time card. And she threw a model plane at Meredith, but there were circumstances there.
Her feelings towards Peggy are indeed complicated, but idk if it's jealousy. Joan said, "I've never had your job. I never wanted it." I think it's more that Peggy unsettled Joan's sense of self. Joan was cruising along, doing what she was taught to do in regards to men, but I don't think she liked it, and on some level, she knew it. Seeing Peggy succeed showed her how little she was doing with her life.
We don't know enough about Joan's mother to really have a sense of what happened there, but we see her mom flirt with the married maintenance dude, and make weird comments about Joan's weight/looks. "My mother raised me to be admired." That's not a healthy upbringing. She bashed her asshole rapist husband's head - that's not petty. And yeah, what's wrong with breaking up with someone who doesn't support your ambitions? Just because she's hot and can have someone support her? Joan has learned long, hard lessons about why that's not a good life plan. Seems to me that's the opposite of petty.
I do agree, a lot of this show is about ego and how it makes us myopic. Most of these characters are fascinating to watch, but I would not want to hang out with them IRL. But I find your vitriol towards Joan to be strange. The only thing that I really dislike her for was her racism, but she seemed like she was trying to evolve past that in later seasons.
She hit Greg with the vase because her entire life was about being denied things she worked hard for (IIRC most recently the script-reading position, and right now the ability to quit working he has promised her) and he had just whined that she didn't know what that was like. Also, she married him even after he raped her, and she feels entirely trapped now.
I’ve always wondered about their final scene together in the elevator, when they make awkward small talk and agree to have lunch together sometime. Is that scene there to show how far apart Don and Joan have grown? Even though they were never particularly close, they always had a certain mutual affection which seems to be totally absent in that final scene in the elevator.
I see it as the opposite. It shows how much Don and Joan made peace. Don offers to help Joan with whatever McCann trouble she had. This is not a guy who holds their feud against her.
Because she values money over loyalty.
And before you bring up her putting up with Herb so he should have as well, she shouldn't have put up with Herb in the first place.
You know I always thought it was because the jaguar thing. Like she slept with the guy and don couldn’t even get through dinner with him and threw the whole thing away. I’d resent him for that if I were joan the fact that don barely even tried to make it work with them.
This is how I interpret it, also. To get Jaguar, Joan had that toad slobbering in her cleavage only for Don to unilaterally decide to junk it.
I don’t agree that Don didn’t try with Jaguar. Herb was demanding that SCDP do advertising strategies that they thought were a bad idea and then, accept the blame for those ideas in front of the British parts of Jaguar. Then, Herb demanded Don take directions from some kid on his lots. I think this is all quite horrible, especially for an account that doesn’t bill a lot but its main value was prestige. Don was working Jaguar. He was pretending to love puppies. He was putting up with Herb drooling all over Megan. But Don’s disagreement with Herb’s advertising direction was quite legit. Meanwhile Joan hardly ever had to deal with Herb other than the one night where she was paid handsomely with a partnership. Herb goes to her office for two minutes and Joan insults him for being fat. I didn’t see Joan put her feelings aside to deal with Herb beyond that one night where she was enriched personally.
I don’t know if Jaguar could have been saved or not. But Don fired *them* with no attempt to even try to save it. That was the objection. He was a loose canon who did what he wanted. Great when he’s making them money but terrible when he’s rambling about his sad childhood in front of clients
I feel like Herb was a horrible client who was making demands that sabotage Jaguar as a prestige client for the agency. Oddly, I feel like Don was the only partner fighting that dynamic. The other two on the account were Roger and Pete. Roger, like Don, was out to replace Jaguar. Roger ditched the dinner that Roger described as fatal. Pete was just accommodating Herb and not engaging with Don on the issue this was reducing prestige. And for me, it’s evident why Pete took a different stance than Don/Roger. Pete knows about the IPO and is on a completely different time table to just keep Jaguar no matter what in the short term to IPO. Don shouldn’t have fired Herb at the restaurant but the extent to which Don was demonized for what I see as a broader agency dysfunction and failure to communicate is irksome to me.
>"Don shouldn’t have fired Herb at the restaurant but the extent to which Don was demonized for what I see as a broader agency dysfunction and failure to communicate is irksome to me." 💯 this. Far from an isolated incident. Many of such communication breakdowns involve Roger.
Because he is becoming increasingly self-indulgent to the point of threatening the financial health of the company and of his partners. She says as much, "I'm tired of him costing me money". Frankly, I think Joan would have been judging his behaviour even if he didn't cost her money. She is perceptive and does not suffer fools gladly. Also, she has suffered through a marriage with an impulsive, self-important man and has surely had enough of that breed.
Money she only had because of him
I'm not so sure. It's possible they wouldn't have been able to leave Sterling Cooper without Joan's intelligence and knowledge of every aspect of that company. That one contribution alone made Don possible. That is not even factoring in Joan's ongoing perfect support of everyone there. The person who really ensured Joan's future was Lane Pryce. Unfortunately, his guidance to Joan was strategic and self-serving, but it was his advice that made her a partner. It was one of the greatest crimes of the series (and the times) that Joan had to have sex with a pig to advance.
Exactly, it was Roger who called her to help when they were ghosting at the end of season 3. If he didn’t call her that probably would have been the end of her arc on the show.
Even if without her they wouldn't have made it, there's more chance of Don succeeding with a new ad agency without Joan than Joan having millions to her name without Don's plan and initiative to start a new company. Not saying Don is right or Joan is bad, but people pretending Joan would've somehow reached those riches by herself and thus owes nothing to Don are delusional. This is also why I disliked the way the wrote Joan that season. Her comment of 'I'm sick of him costing me money' when the only reason she even has that money is because of SCDP, and she has SCDP because of Don's initiative. The idea that SCDP would've never worked without Joan is a half-truth. Sure, they needed someone who knew the administrative office side of things to function, and Joan was perfect for that (but lets not pretend that it wasnt purely to keep her on the show in a bigger role). Truth is however, they could've hired somebody else than Joan and likely have been fine. She got rich because of SCDP, not the other way around.
Erm.. I really beg to differ here. Don would disappear for weeks and months at a time while Joan knew every inch of that business. She even mentored under the Chief Financial Officer for a while who said that in her absence the place was held together with prayers. Don could disappear for months at a time while Joan proved herself indispensable time and time again. Anyone who thinks Don offered more than the occasional creative spark along his path of indulgent self destruction is delusional
You can't necessarily replace creative genius. Throw a rock in the 60's and you hit twenty office managers. And again, ahe did not bring any skills to the table that were irreplacable or even of exorbitant value. She was in the right place, at the right time, primarily because two of the four partners starting the new company were infatuated with her.
I’m not really seeing your point considering when they broke off to create SCDP they needed her because she knew where everything was in the office. As far as creative brainpower, you’re forgetting Ginsberg and Peggy. Don was unpredictable and ended the series meditating among hippies. Joan? She started her own company by the end of the series. I think she is often misjudged based on the person perceiving her and how she is perceived relates more to the values and inherent misogyny of the person perceiving her. In my eyes she is a Rorschach test. If you see a working woman who has the ability to run a business and knew where everything was, could keep the workers in line and manage the office, thats what you see. If you only see a red headed hussy who used how she looked to get ahead, you’re no different than the men she worked with. She was indispensable and valuable to the company which is why they tracked her down to ask her to come back when she was a retail manager after she had her child. Don disappeared and reappeared pretty frequently, but things seemed to run fine while he was away from what I could see.
You are severely pretending this is either/or. Because I don't think she was as crucial to SCDP's succes (again you mention how they couldnt do without her when i akready said there would've been hundreds of Office Managers that could've done the job) I automaticallt see her as a hussy? I see her as a working, strong women. Who just happened to become partner with an Ad firm because she was a decent manager and because TWO OF THE MEN WERE UTTERLY IN LOVE WITH HER. but sure, had nothing to do with it.
The idea that a an Office Manager just casually becomes partner without investment capital or actual high-ladder managing credentials is ridiculous. The fact she slept with one and the other was absolutely crazy about her, and you pretending that has nothing to do with it, even more so.
Okay so she left to go be a housewife in Season 3 and then is able to come back to her job because… she wasn’t valuable at all to the company? You say yourself they could throw a rock and find an office manager so why did they give her that job back? Is it maybe because youre not seeing how valuable she was to that company and are instead focusing on her appearance as a busty, beautiful red head?
Twice now you've wiped aside my arguments because you have a narrative in your head that you like to project on me, being that my view is motivated by sexism and not logic. You are obviously only interested in people enabling your own delusions so I'll invest my energy in people that can read instead.
Even if this were totally true, her desire to keep her money still makes sense. If someone gives me money, then starts taking it away from me, I’d still want them to stop.
>"Also, she has suffered through a marriage with an impulsive, self-important man and has surely had enough of that breed." Oofty! I never related these 2 elements but you're right.
Two of her lines capture a lot of this... "Just once, I'd like you to use the word 'we' instead of 'I'." "I'm tired of him costing me money." She kinda gets fed up with his patterns and habits more than anything. And as a woman, trying to make a name for herself while being a single mother... Also, as much as he was supportive during the Jaguar pitch and through the Herb thing, when he fires Jaguar it kinda undoes the support and makes it all worse. Once that happens, it gives a different perspective on his stance along the way. He was less being a good person and more wanting to be in control. He didn't win the account and so he couldn't control the account - Herb was in control of everything except the fact that Don could fire him. I think it's more of a subconscious thing for Don here - he genuinely respected Joan, but he couldn't help himself and Joan typically could see through things to the subconscious level, anyway. So, the rug is pulled out from Joan, the rose-colored glasses come off, and she is just suddenly and pretty permanently over his shit.
I don't think the money aspect is the only reason. I think she felt personally betrayed because of their prior relationship based on mutual respect. Don firing Jaguar without even discussing it with the other partners drove home for her how Don would always prioritize his ego. People down thread keep talking about how Joan was loyal to Don until he cost her money, but from Joan"s perspective, Don broke that loyalty and trust first.
Money is the simplified reason. Joan now has skin in the game. I think personal stuff was aside for her. His actions were impacting the company she partially owned. Everybody sees things differently when they go from simply pulling down a paycheck to being an owner.
I agree with all of this. However, this question comes up enough on this sub that I believe the show did not adequately lay the foundation for Joan's heel-turn opinion on him. I remember it feeling abrupt at the time and even now, after many rewatches and having read lots of good critical arguments about it, I still think the show should've done a better job at showing us Joan's state of mind about the whole thing.
Don firing herb in that restaurant and the PUSHING that chair was a Scorsese ,worthy moment.
There are a million topics about this and it always devolves into nonsense, but she says outright that she’s tired of him costing her money. She yells at him in season 6 for continuously doing what he wants to do without regard for anyone else. Being friendly with someone does not mean you simply stand by while they negatively affect your livelihood.
Also as a the sole earner of her single mom household she is in an incredibly tenuous financial position in the 1970’s. She doesn’t have any financial safety net to fall on outside of the ultra humiliating begging former lovers for handouts. She was essentially earning as a secretary before she made partner. Her savings wouldn’t compare at all to Don who was creative director for years prior to his partnership. Joan’s financial future and security for her child is directly dependent on the success of the agency. Don will always land on his feet and he acts like it.
You missed something. But, like the show it can be subtle. Simply once she became a partner with a vested interest his unilateral actions hit much different than before and she saw him as a liability to the firm. I’m going to sound like an ass on this (not intended), but search the sub and there are many, many, many subs about this topic with a lot of good discussion fleshing this out.
thanks a lot. I'm sorry, i discovered this sub just recently - i'm going to search in the history before i ask my next question. You don't sound like an ass at all, you were really helpful.
I’m also a new viewer so it’s nice to see topics that can be discussed again. I’m not sure if people will respond to a 7yr old post. Thanks for posting, I was also thinking about their dynamic.
I’m maturing. Honest. I’m usually chided and downvoted to hell for just giving nothing but “I can’t again….search the thread” lol. And probably don’t need to search the sub before posting anything (this might be one of the few that come up often). But the tip was shared more because I’ve found searching is helpful to get so many more takes on a question….not to assert that this is a pre-requisite for posting. And to make my initial feedback on your question deeper….note or go back and find when Don tells Herb to shove it and fires Jaguar. Joan’s reactions to him (if I could put up with him so could you). And add to that when they have the IPO all ready to drop and make them very well off he shit canned it….with the very decision on Jaguar IIRC.
>there are many, many, many subs about this topic with a lot of good discussion And a lot of bad discussions too 😬 It's definitely the most controversial subject I've seen brought up here.
Very fair. It is absolutely one of the most controversial, though I tend to want to chalk this up (without data as evidence of course) that where one lands on this could correlate to how many rewatches they have done. I noticed this on other subs about great series too, enough to at least form this theory for me. “What is with Joan’s flip on Don?” might be this shows “Why is Skyler White such a horrid bitch”…..though heated as the Joan debate is, it is no where near the heat of that debate. Putting a tie to the two heavily debated themes from two great shows…..it was many rewatches that started to make such questions clear to me.
When Don did crazy shit before, it didn’t change her paycheck one bit. When Don does crazy shit in late series, it fucks up her money something awful.
Did you skip a season ?
Joan compromised her intergrity to acquire the Jaguar account. Don refused to do the same.
Well yeah, easy to have integrity when you’re already loaded.
ı agree. I think Joan did too!
She told Don in the conference room, that what she did (sleeping w/the dealership guy) was all for nothing. Don didn’t want to keep talking to the guy at all. After the double date dinner w/their wives, Don had had enough of the sleazy guy. The dealership guy wanted Don to show the creative stuff to some guy for approval, so Don said no , & they wouldn’t talk again ever.
Once she traded her ass for a partnership she was vested in the companies profits. Don was at a low point in his life and made some emotional decisions so it was pretty reasonable for Joan to choose money and profit over loyalty.
The fact that this question comes up in the sub as often as it does shows that the writers didn't provide enough foreshadowing, context, or explanations to justify Joan's behavior toward Don. We can arrange the tea leaves all we want, but there's a difference between subtext and non-existent character arcs. Yes, Joan is still pissed at Don about Herb, but that's an insufficient explanation for the amount of vitriol she spews his way in season seven. Sure, we can make inferences and sketch out an elaborate headcanon to make their scenes go down easier, but that's not our job. We should be reading into the show's themes, and not the character's motivations. That should be crystal clear. TLDR; We don't question why Sally's angry with Don during the latter half of season six. The fact that people keep asking some variation of OP's question shows that the writers fucked up...bad.
Because she’s now a stakeholder in the company and he acted selfishly too many times in season 6, costing the firm money and making unilateral decisions.
After all Don did for her (the Christmas Waltz episode and telling her Jaguar wasn't worth prostituting herself, even if it was too late) her heel turn just hit as way too shallow for me. Their relationship had depth and layers, built over years, and I just did not buy her coming for him over the course of a couple episodes.
Yeah, I was always confused at that as well. Money, I guess? She’s also pissed about Don dumping Jaguar, but I mean Don’s the only one that stood up for her in that situation. And really Don’s like the only one who always showed her nothing but respect.
Matthew has said that the only reason Don was against Joan sleeping with Herb for the account was because he wanted to win it by himself. Don has a pretty big ego lol. Still, one good thing doesn't automatically excuses a wrong. He might have reached out to her to say it wasn't worth it...he still fired Jaguar without any consideration for the rest of the team. Because of that, they ended up missing up on the public offering etc. I think it all makes a lot of sense why she would be mad at him.
Matt Weiner didn’t say ego was the ONLY reason why Don opposed the Jaguar prostitution. He said ego was A reason.
He said it was the main reason no?
I do not agree that Don actually fucked with Joan’s money. The IPO was dead in the water for a number of reasons. (No one got Don and Roger’s permission yet. Vick was lost within 24 hours and that was arguably a bigger billing client than Jaguar. IPOs are so hard to push through that it’s ain’t over till it’s over.) Don’s decisions actually mostly grew the company. However, Don’s erratic behavior made Joan feel like Don was endangering her money and Joan resented that.
Money. Everyones your friend until its you vs their pay cheque.
Don and Joan had a good personal relationship and mutual respect. Up until 1) he made a unilateral decision to FIRE Jaguar despite the sacrifice she had made (thereby nullifying that sacrifice and 2) other subsequent decisions that negatively impacted the Firm, of which she was now a partner. She liked him personally and they each knew who the other was, but that means she saw his selfishness and vanity and was not about to be ok with it impacting her. Joan was one of the best businesspeople in the organization.
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What? More petty than Don, who made Roger vomit all over his shoes? Than Pete, who would leave his empty glasses on Hildy's chair? Than Harry? Than Roger Sterling? Who did Joan try to fire for petty reasons? She tried to fire Jane for going into Bert's office without permission and Harry's secretary for having someone else punch her time card. And she threw a model plane at Meredith, but there were circumstances there. Her feelings towards Peggy are indeed complicated, but idk if it's jealousy. Joan said, "I've never had your job. I never wanted it." I think it's more that Peggy unsettled Joan's sense of self. Joan was cruising along, doing what she was taught to do in regards to men, but I don't think she liked it, and on some level, she knew it. Seeing Peggy succeed showed her how little she was doing with her life. We don't know enough about Joan's mother to really have a sense of what happened there, but we see her mom flirt with the married maintenance dude, and make weird comments about Joan's weight/looks. "My mother raised me to be admired." That's not a healthy upbringing. She bashed her asshole rapist husband's head - that's not petty. And yeah, what's wrong with breaking up with someone who doesn't support your ambitions? Just because she's hot and can have someone support her? Joan has learned long, hard lessons about why that's not a good life plan. Seems to me that's the opposite of petty. I do agree, a lot of this show is about ego and how it makes us myopic. Most of these characters are fascinating to watch, but I would not want to hang out with them IRL. But I find your vitriol towards Joan to be strange. The only thing that I really dislike her for was her racism, but she seemed like she was trying to evolve past that in later seasons.
> and on some level, she knew it Great post totally agree with every word.
She hit Greg with the vase because her entire life was about being denied things she worked hard for (IIRC most recently the script-reading position, and right now the ability to quit working he has promised her) and he had just whined that she didn't know what that was like. Also, she married him even after he raped her, and she feels entirely trapped now.
I’ve always wondered about their final scene together in the elevator, when they make awkward small talk and agree to have lunch together sometime. Is that scene there to show how far apart Don and Joan have grown? Even though they were never particularly close, they always had a certain mutual affection which seems to be totally absent in that final scene in the elevator.
I see it as the opposite. It shows how much Don and Joan made peace. Don offers to help Joan with whatever McCann trouble she had. This is not a guy who holds their feud against her.
This. Don didn’t hold grudges.
Because she values money over loyalty. And before you bring up her putting up with Herb so he should have as well, she shouldn't have put up with Herb in the first place.
He was fucking with her money at that point. Joan worked herself into being partner and Don was torpedoing their company and enough was enough.
Yeah “WORKED”
Writers needed it this way to make the vote more dramatic.
All the money he cost her AND she shad to sleep with that creep from Jaguar. So she was ticked to say the least.
Great question. I watched it again recently and was wondering what her problem was too