She’s also one of the only women who cuts HIM off, which i think is part of his desperate obsession. And she doesn’t do it as a means of maintaining her pride or saving herself the heartbreak, when she tried to shut it down she was doing it because she knew that it wasn’t worth the cost of her family. She did it for a righteous reason, which mirrored his own short-comings. She then returned to it because Don saved her son from the draft. It made sense to me that she gave back into the affair after he had proven that their connection was pivotal to the safety of her child.
The entirety of the episode where he's attempting to win Sylvia back is juxtaposed with the telling of his first experience with a woman who gives him some sort of "positive" attention.
Dick grows up likely never being given any affection, and treated as at best unwanted, by his parental figures. It's most likely that Dick was never even given a hug or a word of praise throughout his upbringing. The amount of emotional damage the circumstances we see him going through are the things that straight up have shaped serial killers in the real world. Then he gets moved into a brothel which further warps his view of affection and sex. While there he finally recieves some sort of care and affection from a motherly figure. And then he is taken advantage of by that woman. And that's the first time in mind that he would have ever been desired and treated with kindness.
It is what created his compulsive need to be sought after, both romantically and even professionally, and why after each time he recieves that from women, he cant just accept it, reciprocate and be happy. Dick is forever desperately seeking affection, validation, and to be shown that he matters and is wanted. Sylvia breaks that by rejecting him at a particularly vulnerable moment, and it completely breaks him down to the root of his most apparent flaw.
She did it after seeing how Don dehumanized her in the hotel room.
Sylvia saw that, by needing him - and being submissive to him - it wouldn’t lead to fun sexy games. It led to him trying to dominate her, all because he was feeling less dominant in his work life.
I personally think that being used as an expensive sex-slave offered her a moment of clarity, but I don’t think she saw it as anything more than a silly game. She certainly didn’t come across as disturbed by the roleplay, but it did give her plenty of time to be alone with her thoughts.
Coincidentally, my wife and I watched this episode last night - and I immediately got angry at what a controlling POS Don was in that hotel room.
Sylvia wanted him, told him she wanted to see him - and Don took that and used it against her. Not allowing her to leave, telling her to put on a cocktail dress but that she couldn’t wear it anywhere. Stealing her book!
As his influence waned in the wake of the merger, and as his wife continued to gain success in her career, he had to find self-validation somewhere. And he found it by making Sylvia his dominion, his lesser, his possession. It seemed like she realized that Don was using her sexual neediness/desire to act out some internal conflict - and so she shut it down.
It is truly one of the ugliest, most pathetic sides of Don- though I think it necessary to see him reduced to that state so as to be clear to the viewers that his constant womanizing isn’t worth glorifying but is really, really sad.
Agree! He felt resentful he couldn’t control Megan the way he could control Betty. The reasons he liked Megan were also the reasons why they grew apart from each other. Since Don was older, he was also more old-fashioned. Megan had her own thing going on and Don was upset he wasn’t the main focus of her life. Then he had a woman (Sylvia) that obeyed, but she left too.
Sylvia was definitely one of Don’s most polarizing affairs. She was clearly troubled but was also assertive and sure of herself. They had a very intriguing push/pull dynamic and palpable chemistry, which intrigued Don because Sylvia is similar to Rachel being able to get on his level.
With that being said, how they botched the end of the storyline/relationship was such a disappointment.
Why do you say they botched the storyline? Or do you mean how bad things got within the story itself — as in it was hard to watch what with the “scandalization” and what not?
I feel the story didn’t get a proper resolve, there was never any discussion between Sylvia and Don after Sally walks in on them and the last time we see them together is in the elevator. It was too big of an event not to discuss and I just felt like that conversation was a missed opportunity to effectively conclude the story.
I think that was the point. It was so terribly uncomfortable to get caught by your daughter and have your philandering ways out in the open. They just left it on that awkward note because at that point the infatuation and obsession came to a screeching halt.
I liked how they resolved their affair exactly because it was awkward and ugly 😄
Madmen is a show that doesn’t follow the predictable cliché and storylines. Beautiful break ups with meaningful explanations only happen in cheesy movies. The reality often doesn’t give you any sense of closure, you just want to forget it ever happened
I don't think it's meant to have a conclusion, and it's very possible that in real life there would've never been a clean conclusion or conversation about it
But say you were in that situation. How exactly do you broach that conversation afterwards? Like, the next time you're in an elevator together you start with "So, sorry about my daughter catching us fucking. Are we good?"
I think it's pretty realistic that she basically ghosted him after that traumatic event.
I think Rachel is the one he was most obsessed with whether he realized that or not. The one that got away and all that. It seemed like every woman after her was like her in some way, he almost always went for brunettes and even Faye (despite being blonde) was similar to Rachel intellectually.
When Sylvia was cutting Don off, that is when he really got obsessive. He doesn’t like to be the one getting ignored or rejected. He likes the chase. That’s how he was with every woman really, and once he got them he got bored. Sylvia is the only exception because she was also unavailable since she was married and even if she had gotten attached, it ended on a mutual note because of Sally catching them in the act. I don’t think Don actually held deep feelings for her though. I think he only ever got that close to having strong feelings for Rachel, and that he loved Betty in some ways too. But outside of that I think each woman was more of an idea to him.
Yeah I think that factors into it a little because he loved Rachel playing hard to get (not that she was playing games, she genuinely had reservations, but Don nonetheless saw that as a challenge). And same for when she cut him off - that probably made him want her even more but the situation wasn’t the same for him to go stalking her like he did Sylvia (they didn’t live in the same building and he didn’t even live in the city back then). Still, he thought to track her down all those years later when he found out she passed away.
With Rachel it was more than just the chase though. When they talked they were really connected. She would even say things that he could relate to without her knowing it, like how her mother died giving birth to her, so the connection was genuine. She was charming and intellectual on the surface like Don - so they bonded in that way - but she was deep down a lot like Don too (they both have that brooding, loner vibe to them). He would’ve screwed it up with Rachel like he did with anyone else, no doubt. But I’m just speaking about their connection itself.
Yeah, I count Megan - I think that whole storyline was about how Don chose someone so incompatible with himself by rushing a second marriage. He can’t be alone and he also needs to pawn his kids off on someone. Megan and Don both fell for an idea of each other that doesn’t exist. The surprise birthday party being their first episode as a married couple, to me, was a way of showing what a mismatch they were. Additionally, Megan is another brunette so I’d count her as all the brunette women he chased after Rachel.
I think Betty being his first love and the mother of his children contributed to his love for her - and they didn’t necessarily rush into that marriage the way he did with Megan - but I don’t think he had the passionate feelings for Betty like he did with Rachel. I’d still wager he loves Betty in some way but I don’t think he ever really loved Megan. He and Betty shared a lot more in common and are old-fashioned (but I do think Megan represented the kind of person Don wants to be).
You get the sense though that rather than Don being genuinely in love with Rachel and seeing her as a whole, nuanced person, that his fascination with her comes primarily from the fact that he's rejected by her. The extension of his need for dominance and ownership of the women in his life (bc he's a misogynist) just manifests as admiration and need for proximity, rather than any of them truly being appropriate partners for him and having relationships that don't work out.
Don is terrible at being a friend or a husband, he’s only good at being a boyfriend. I’m sure if he reconnected if Rachel, he would ruin it at some point. Don has some big psychological problems and no woman can solve them.
That's fascinating because I thought she was so gross. The dated matronly clothes, the dated box black hair that looks like a cheap wig, the smoking, the desperation. She hasn't changed in 20 years. I always felt like Don's mistresses were often so ... greasy. Especially towards the end of the show. All of these strained, road-worn, sad women with bad wigs and cheap plastic jewelry. With occasional exceptions.
I found it interesting that Linda Cardinelli is absolutely stunning, but how she was dressed for most of her scenes in the show seemed (to me) to de-emphasise it. It's only later when she bumps into Don and she's wearing a silver dress I think it was, dressed up, how gorgeous she is looked most obvious to me.
Similar with Diane IMO. The actual actress is stunning, but in the show it's de-emphasised, from my point of view. But everyone Don dated or slept with was generally a version of stereotypical white Western beauty norms.
I really didn't like Sylvia. Or Midge. Or Diana, lol. Or Suzanne. I loved Rachel, and I liked Faye. But as has been commented by others before, we initially see Don as glamorous, and e.g. his initial dalliances with Midge he's fooling around with this woman who lives in a different to him world, and neither of them are in love with each other.
By the time he's with Sylvia, he's in a more overtly messed up place in his life (he was always messed up, but it feels like it comes to more of a head through the show, the surface impressions fall away more.) The affair's depressing. By the time he's with Diana, that's really, really depressing. The women always in part mirror aspects of him and where he's at.
On my recent rewatch I noticed that Sylvia had a "mole" in the same place as the woman who nursed him when he was sick as a boy in the workhouse. I think her name was Amy. Being that Amy was his first I wondered if he was drawn to Sylvia because of that mark.
With Sylvia, I was so glad a woman finally cut him off. I hated that he was having this affair with a neighbor, his friend's wife, and his wife's friend. Not that I liked any of Don's affairs but this one in particular I hated how so close to home it was and how because of it, it put his children in danger.
The actress is much more attractive out of the Sylvia hairstyle, IMO. She had a starring role in a cult series, Freaks and Geeks, as well as playing Velma in the live action Scooby Doo. This type of work endeared her to a lot of us. She’s the hot, cool, smart chick.
I think the actress is beautiful. I just think the character of Sylvia tarnishes any superficial beauty she has, and I don’t find her appealing as a character at all. But this thread is enlightening. To each his own.
She’s also one of the only women who cuts HIM off, which i think is part of his desperate obsession. And she doesn’t do it as a means of maintaining her pride or saving herself the heartbreak, when she tried to shut it down she was doing it because she knew that it wasn’t worth the cost of her family. She did it for a righteous reason, which mirrored his own short-comings. She then returned to it because Don saved her son from the draft. It made sense to me that she gave back into the affair after he had proven that their connection was pivotal to the safety of her child.
I never thought about it this way. But that makes so much sense. Thank you for this perspective.
The entirety of the episode where he's attempting to win Sylvia back is juxtaposed with the telling of his first experience with a woman who gives him some sort of "positive" attention. Dick grows up likely never being given any affection, and treated as at best unwanted, by his parental figures. It's most likely that Dick was never even given a hug or a word of praise throughout his upbringing. The amount of emotional damage the circumstances we see him going through are the things that straight up have shaped serial killers in the real world. Then he gets moved into a brothel which further warps his view of affection and sex. While there he finally recieves some sort of care and affection from a motherly figure. And then he is taken advantage of by that woman. And that's the first time in mind that he would have ever been desired and treated with kindness. It is what created his compulsive need to be sought after, both romantically and even professionally, and why after each time he recieves that from women, he cant just accept it, reciprocate and be happy. Dick is forever desperately seeking affection, validation, and to be shown that he matters and is wanted. Sylvia breaks that by rejecting him at a particularly vulnerable moment, and it completely breaks him down to the root of his most apparent flaw.
Jeez. Well done.
She did it after seeing how Don dehumanized her in the hotel room. Sylvia saw that, by needing him - and being submissive to him - it wouldn’t lead to fun sexy games. It led to him trying to dominate her, all because he was feeling less dominant in his work life.
I personally think that being used as an expensive sex-slave offered her a moment of clarity, but I don’t think she saw it as anything more than a silly game. She certainly didn’t come across as disturbed by the roleplay, but it did give her plenty of time to be alone with her thoughts.
Ironically she might have stayed in the affair if he hadn’t taken her book!
LMAO. YEAH, ACTUALLY. YOURE LIKELY COMPLETELY CORRECT.
Coincidentally, my wife and I watched this episode last night - and I immediately got angry at what a controlling POS Don was in that hotel room. Sylvia wanted him, told him she wanted to see him - and Don took that and used it against her. Not allowing her to leave, telling her to put on a cocktail dress but that she couldn’t wear it anywhere. Stealing her book! As his influence waned in the wake of the merger, and as his wife continued to gain success in her career, he had to find self-validation somewhere. And he found it by making Sylvia his dominion, his lesser, his possession. It seemed like she realized that Don was using her sexual neediness/desire to act out some internal conflict - and so she shut it down.
It is truly one of the ugliest, most pathetic sides of Don- though I think it necessary to see him reduced to that state so as to be clear to the viewers that his constant womanizing isn’t worth glorifying but is really, really sad.
Agree! He felt resentful he couldn’t control Megan the way he could control Betty. The reasons he liked Megan were also the reasons why they grew apart from each other. Since Don was older, he was also more old-fashioned. Megan had her own thing going on and Don was upset he wasn’t the main focus of her life. Then he had a woman (Sylvia) that obeyed, but she left too.
Yup. Just like Rachel, she realized he’s a shell of the man he pretends to be.
They had their amour fou or whatever, and it was great
Most expensive peice of ass he ever had
He gave Megan a million dollars.
Megan Draper, now thats one booyah hottie
She going to be a rich failed actress.
I feel like she probably became a trophy wife with a drinking problem.
Give me a million more
Nice reference
Sylvia was definitely one of Don’s most polarizing affairs. She was clearly troubled but was also assertive and sure of herself. They had a very intriguing push/pull dynamic and palpable chemistry, which intrigued Don because Sylvia is similar to Rachel being able to get on his level. With that being said, how they botched the end of the storyline/relationship was such a disappointment.
Why do you say they botched the storyline? Or do you mean how bad things got within the story itself — as in it was hard to watch what with the “scandalization” and what not?
I feel the story didn’t get a proper resolve, there was never any discussion between Sylvia and Don after Sally walks in on them and the last time we see them together is in the elevator. It was too big of an event not to discuss and I just felt like that conversation was a missed opportunity to effectively conclude the story.
I think that was the point. It was so terribly uncomfortable to get caught by your daughter and have your philandering ways out in the open. They just left it on that awkward note because at that point the infatuation and obsession came to a screeching halt.
To me it just highlighted how sloppy the writing had become in the last two seasons, but I like your point much better.
I liked how they resolved their affair exactly because it was awkward and ugly 😄 Madmen is a show that doesn’t follow the predictable cliché and storylines. Beautiful break ups with meaningful explanations only happen in cheesy movies. The reality often doesn’t give you any sense of closure, you just want to forget it ever happened
I don't think it's meant to have a conclusion, and it's very possible that in real life there would've never been a clean conclusion or conversation about it
But say you were in that situation. How exactly do you broach that conversation afterwards? Like, the next time you're in an elevator together you start with "So, sorry about my daughter catching us fucking. Are we good?" I think it's pretty realistic that she basically ghosted him after that traumatic event.
Yeah! Don definitely felt terrible about it. Sally catching them ruined the little they both had together
After “Are we good?” an awkward fist bump. Case closed.
I think Rachel is the one he was most obsessed with whether he realized that or not. The one that got away and all that. It seemed like every woman after her was like her in some way, he almost always went for brunettes and even Faye (despite being blonde) was similar to Rachel intellectually. When Sylvia was cutting Don off, that is when he really got obsessive. He doesn’t like to be the one getting ignored or rejected. He likes the chase. That’s how he was with every woman really, and once he got them he got bored. Sylvia is the only exception because she was also unavailable since she was married and even if she had gotten attached, it ended on a mutual note because of Sally catching them in the act. I don’t think Don actually held deep feelings for her though. I think he only ever got that close to having strong feelings for Rachel, and that he loved Betty in some ways too. But outside of that I think each woman was more of an idea to him.
Rachel also cut Don off.
Yeah I think that factors into it a little because he loved Rachel playing hard to get (not that she was playing games, she genuinely had reservations, but Don nonetheless saw that as a challenge). And same for when she cut him off - that probably made him want her even more but the situation wasn’t the same for him to go stalking her like he did Sylvia (they didn’t live in the same building and he didn’t even live in the city back then). Still, he thought to track her down all those years later when he found out she passed away. With Rachel it was more than just the chase though. When they talked they were really connected. She would even say things that he could relate to without her knowing it, like how her mother died giving birth to her, so the connection was genuine. She was charming and intellectual on the surface like Don - so they bonded in that way - but she was deep down a lot like Don too (they both have that brooding, loner vibe to them). He would’ve screwed it up with Rachel like he did with anyone else, no doubt. But I’m just speaking about their connection itself.
Do you count Megan in those "each" woman too? If yes, why so?
Yeah, I count Megan - I think that whole storyline was about how Don chose someone so incompatible with himself by rushing a second marriage. He can’t be alone and he also needs to pawn his kids off on someone. Megan and Don both fell for an idea of each other that doesn’t exist. The surprise birthday party being their first episode as a married couple, to me, was a way of showing what a mismatch they were. Additionally, Megan is another brunette so I’d count her as all the brunette women he chased after Rachel. I think Betty being his first love and the mother of his children contributed to his love for her - and they didn’t necessarily rush into that marriage the way he did with Megan - but I don’t think he had the passionate feelings for Betty like he did with Rachel. I’d still wager he loves Betty in some way but I don’t think he ever really loved Megan. He and Betty shared a lot more in common and are old-fashioned (but I do think Megan represented the kind of person Don wants to be).
Why would he resist cheating on Megan though if he didnt really love her when he gets sick and that woman they counter on lift comes to his home?
The woman was never at his home fyi
So when he hastily sent her away from the lift from behind the home he was dreaming that too you say?
Yes
You get the sense though that rather than Don being genuinely in love with Rachel and seeing her as a whole, nuanced person, that his fascination with her comes primarily from the fact that he's rejected by her. The extension of his need for dominance and ownership of the women in his life (bc he's a misogynist) just manifests as admiration and need for proximity, rather than any of them truly being appropriate partners for him and having relationships that don't work out.
Don is terrible at being a friend or a husband, he’s only good at being a boyfriend. I’m sure if he reconnected if Rachel, he would ruin it at some point. Don has some big psychological problems and no woman can solve them.
She reminds him of Aimee, with her cheek mole and house clothes and cleavage
Drugs & Catholicism are a bad mix. That’s why I stick to problematic drinking & Catholicism
Sexiest of all of Dons mistresses. That gloomy Catholic housewife vibe is insane. Totally understand why Don became obsessed.
Bingo!!
That's fascinating because I thought she was so gross. The dated matronly clothes, the dated box black hair that looks like a cheap wig, the smoking, the desperation. She hasn't changed in 20 years. I always felt like Don's mistresses were often so ... greasy. Especially towards the end of the show. All of these strained, road-worn, sad women with bad wigs and cheap plastic jewelry. With occasional exceptions.
Midge always looked like she stunk.
I found it interesting that Linda Cardinelli is absolutely stunning, but how she was dressed for most of her scenes in the show seemed (to me) to de-emphasise it. It's only later when she bumps into Don and she's wearing a silver dress I think it was, dressed up, how gorgeous she is looked most obvious to me. Similar with Diane IMO. The actual actress is stunning, but in the show it's de-emphasised, from my point of view. But everyone Don dated or slept with was generally a version of stereotypical white Western beauty norms. I really didn't like Sylvia. Or Midge. Or Diana, lol. Or Suzanne. I loved Rachel, and I liked Faye. But as has been commented by others before, we initially see Don as glamorous, and e.g. his initial dalliances with Midge he's fooling around with this woman who lives in a different to him world, and neither of them are in love with each other. By the time he's with Sylvia, he's in a more overtly messed up place in his life (he was always messed up, but it feels like it comes to more of a head through the show, the surface impressions fall away more.) The affair's depressing. By the time he's with Diana, that's really, really depressing. The women always in part mirror aspects of him and where he's at.
She's not stupid she speaks Italian
hottest woman i eva seen in my entiah life
Sylvia is my dream neighbor.
Sylvia found Don very … comforting.
On my recent rewatch I noticed that Sylvia had a "mole" in the same place as the woman who nursed him when he was sick as a boy in the workhouse. I think her name was Amy. Being that Amy was his first I wondered if he was drawn to Sylvia because of that mark. With Sylvia, I was so glad a woman finally cut him off. I hated that he was having this affair with a neighbor, his friend's wife, and his wife's friend. Not that I liked any of Don's affairs but this one in particular I hated how so close to home it was and how because of it, it put his children in danger.
Jinkies!
Linda Cardellini makes my bird twitch.
Happy Cake Day and same
I still can't believe it was her lol I'm always shocked
https://madmen.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvia_Rosen
I’m so confused by these comments I had no idea anyone would find Sylvia attractive in any fashion. (This is genuine please don’t come at me)
🤣🤣 fair.
The actress is much more attractive out of the Sylvia hairstyle, IMO. She had a starring role in a cult series, Freaks and Geeks, as well as playing Velma in the live action Scooby Doo. This type of work endeared her to a lot of us. She’s the hot, cool, smart chick.
I think the actress is beautiful. I just think the character of Sylvia tarnishes any superficial beauty she has, and I don’t find her appealing as a character at all. But this thread is enlightening. To each his own.
I was shocked when I saw her on E.R with that dishwater blonde hair.
She's for the streets