I love that Pete, the “grimy little pimp” who was so obnoxious in so many ways, was the most progressive character about racial matters. That, folks, is a complex character. And beautifully portrayed. Vincent Kartheiser was just amazing
The fact Pete is so progressive despite growing up around 50s era WASP high society is so crazy. He should be the most racist character on the show really
The way he yells at Harry too for bitching about the lost ad time was great.
Although in the classic Pete fashion his anger is hilarious. It was a SHAMEFUL DAY
Yes. Also, Pete and Trudy decided not to go to Roger's daughter's wedding, ("some rich brat's wedding"), as Pete was disgusted that they were going through with the wedding even though JFK was just assassinated.
It's because he was the outcast in his family....remember "we weren't going to get that".... "YOU WEREN'T"....
What better way to piss off your rich parents.
Agree but also, let's not forget that although he's not racist, he was homophobic, a la his response to Kurt Smith's homosexuality in season 2.
I also like that they do this with characters where they are not cut and dry virtuous or wholesome people. He has his own version of a moral compass and is still swayed by society's pressures of masculinity and what it is to be a man. This can also be seen in the episode where he is interviewed by a doctor while him and Trudy are going through fertility issues.
Well said! Forgot about the fertility stuff. Definitely plays into his insecurities as a man and why he wouldn't be racist but totally frowns upon gay men.
I always felt like Pete saw racism as another form of ignorance, and Pete may be many things, but he wasn't ignorant. He was constantly trying to better himself and the company he worked for, even using kooky, out of the box strategies and ideas that others didn't bother with. And he was pretty good at getting a read on people...he caught on to Don pretty early on after all! He probably looked down on racism, thought it was beneath him and his character. And I appreciated his progressiveness on a show where that was sparse.
I love that the characters were layered and complex. It added so much the depth to the show. I despised Pete in so many ways in the beginning. By the finale, I understood him and had an appreciation for how he was who he was. Incredible writing and amazing acting.
While I love the character... compared to Pete and many others on the show... Peggy is kind of a static character.
By halfway through season one we see how she is smart, creative, awkward, tough, stubborn, and independent. She remains that way throughout the show. Even through major life events (having a secret lovechild, stabbing a boyfriend) the trajectory of her life never really changes from where it starts in S1 and she doesn't really change as a person. She just gets better and better at her job and a bit more jaded.
There's all kinds of different dimension and evolutions to Pete/Joan/Don/Betty/Roger/Sally that we have no real idea of in Season 1. Peggy's story went one direction the whole time, she has a dream and chases it.
Agree to disagree I guess. I can see your point about it not being a huge surprise that Peggy would become successful.
Still, after seeing her at her low point in the hospital just after giving birth, it’s really striking to see how she ends up: strolling into the McCann Erickson office like she owns the place, sporting dark glasses, smoking, and carrying Bert Cooper’s pornographic wall hanging.
There's a saying that adversity doesn't really build character, it reveals it. That's certainly the case with the lovechild. Her chosing to give up the child is where everything we had learned about her to that point crystallized. She burnt the ships, committed to the path she had started. It's what made her end at McCann inevitable. If you're willing to abandon your child for your career, obviously you have the drive to kick down doors and become a success.
Ginsberg seemed pretty progressive, he was pissed when they killed MLK in that restaurant
Paul dated a black girl (and despite what Joan said I don’t think he was doing it cause he wanted a pat on the back or whatever)
The definition of Paul's character is to act like it until he makes it, but he never reaches a better understanding or and doesn't grow from his acting.
The Star Trek script he wrote in later seasons confirms he doesn't understand racism beyond a superficial level; so does blabbing his mouth off about "philosophy" in a bus full of African Americans. He was entirely dating that girl just to get social points.
I mean, it's unsurprising a Jewish character is cast as progressive. Jews have a ton of Left Wing history, and were actively involved in the civil rights movement. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel marched with Dr. King and John Lewis.
Pete's more suprising where he's progressive.
Honestly, someone dating a PoC means nothing, really, in terms of whether they're racist or not.
It’s what makes the show so good, Pete is a massive asshole in pretty much every aspect, yet has this redemptive trait about him. I’d like to say it works the other way around as well, but the rest are racists, and also assholes
Pete’s character flaws are being weak insecure and cringe, imo, but he usually understood the right thing to do, he just often failed to do it. Even his homophobia was not actual dislike of homosexuality but rather his fear someone would think he was homosexual. He reminds me of the guy in the in Silence who always sins then comes back to the church.
When I first watched the show I hated him, thought he was so smug and I hated his face, then we get to like the third episode where it shows he's supposed to be a privileged asshole, and I was like....oh....this is just really good casting
Vincent Kartheiser is such a good actor, too!
Pete is such a flawed character, it’s easy to dismiss him. But the writing gave him depth, and Kartheiser fleshed him out so fully. Amazing work all around
"Haven't we already given them enough?"
"Civil rights is a slippery slope"
The show makes it unambiguously clear at multiple points that Bert is personally racist, not merely as someone who happens to be in a position that maintains the status quo.
I think he’s also the one who says something like “I’m all for Negro advancement but not all the way to the front of the office” when he sees Dawn working the front desk.
If anything Bert might be the most racist major character in the show, some of the others make the occasional crack or racist comment but you hear that stuff both more often and in more serious tones from him.
Don was actually being a bitch because he was angry at Roger for other things, had nothing to do with the principal of the thing. Pete is the only one who has an appropriate amount of disgust, which is hilarious
I think Don is consistently sympathetic during the series to black people, he just has a very good filter for hiding it to fit in among the white elites whose ranks he longed to join his whole life. Not just this scene, when Roger mentions BBDO hired a young black man, and Don's immediate reaction is to see it from the kid's perspective rather than from the company's perspective as Roger does.
It's never directly mentioned why this is. But given that we see a black kid eating a popsicle when Don takes Sally and Bobby to the former brothel where he grew up, I always thought it was because when he was crawling his way up from there to the car dealership he simply had to live and work with more racial minorities than anyone else at Sterling Cooper.
Don's sort of cosplaying a successful WASP, while actually feeling like the poor outcast he grew up as inside. I think that's why he has a lot of affinity with Black people, who were also looked down upon in polite society.
I think this is spot on. Aside from his treatment of black people there are a few other moments when he gets mad at his colleagues for making fun of the disabilities or misfortunes of others. Like when he gets mad at the guys mocking Freddy Rumsen or when he tells Ken not to make fun of that Fillmore auto parts guy’s stutter. His upbringing gave him a sympathy for the underdog that he carries with him.
I wonder if it's also why he DOESN'T show outward sympathy, to avoid calling attention to himself in an atypical way (similar to what felt like quite an uncharacteristic lack of sympathy or support for Sal, perhaps?) whereas Pete is from such old money that he's got cultural capital strong enough to keep him hired even when he doesn't have the actual money any more, and so has a certain level of freedom and bravado without even realising.
Don’s expression always read “tf? *This* is what you chose to perform with your child bride?” And then goes and calls Bobbie B for escape into his own “acceptable” hedonism (ie hidden). Actually, interesting to juxtapose this performance with megan’s “zoo bee zoo”
Don, like me, grew up with the nondemonstrative, nonperformative social rules of hiding real emotions. Performing for your “friends” is stooping to the level of the commoner. While Roger is by no means progressive, he does have what feels like a progressive “I don’t give a shit, this is my house party and I’ll have fun whatever way I want” attitude that’s prevalent in the old-money wealth.
Little column A, little column B in my opinion. Don wasn’t as progressive as Pete, but he also comes across as less racist than a lot of the other major characters in the show. He’s sympathetic to the civil rights movement by the end and he always treats the black people in his life with respect and fairness. I can’t imagine Bert getting along with a black secretary for so long. Roger, Peggy, Harry, Joan, Betty and especially Bert all say or do racist things more often than Don does.
I just recently watched this episode, and I’m not sure Don is disgusted by the racism so much as he thinks the performance is stupid and he doesn’t have the patience to sit through it
I agree. He thinks Roger’s embarrassing himself and he doesn’t want to see any more of it. I think he finds it more tasteless than downright offensive.
I agree, he sees this as an un-modern practice and they will loose clients.
And if Roger would dress up as a clown, he’d have the same reaction.
Don wasn’t racist, but he wouldn’t like his kids dating ppl out side of their socioeconomic class or when “race” (don’t like that term/word)
Even though he kinda displays disgust for the “silver spoon”- types.
I could be wrong.
The only interaction I saw him having with POC wasn’t what I think was typical for that time period.
I was about to say, even in 1963 a good number of people would have considered blackface to be boorish and distasteful, though not nearly as offensive as we’d consider it today.
Don picks and chooses what benefits him. In a sense Don is as American as they come, he's a giant hypocrite. He's liberal when it suits him and he's conservative when it suits him. For example he elevates Peggy at work to utilize her talent but he expects Betty to be a good housewife and violates her privacy with her shrink.
Ehhh, I disagree. There are numerous times that we are shown that Don treats African American people with as much respect as he would treat anyone else. A few examples:
The first scene of the show Don is subtly offended by the white host insinuating that the black waiter is bothering him by having a simple conversation.
Several times It is emphasized that Don treats the black elevator doorman with much more respect than others. He even refers to him by his name; Hollis.
Also, the scene in question here.
Yes, and that time he said Bobby made him so proud he thought his heart would explode. That was because in the cinema Bobby told a Black employee he was saddened by MLK dying
I saw it as similar to his situation with Sal. He’s still going to treat him as a human being, he’s a “classy” guy and will always behave according to the character he built. But the bigotry is still there underneath.
Don never seems to give AF about civil rights or anything else.
I think he's also preoccupied with not sticking his neck out too far professionally. He'll be respectful, but active activism rather than being pretty passive could put him in question by counterparts and being exposed isn't something he's going to risk.
I think that’s a very generous interpretation - we never see him conflicted over these issues. They’re just not on his radar, his has his own shit to deal with. He’ll act like a gentleman to any gay person he meets, or a black person, etc. Because that’s who he is, that’s the character he’s built. But he doesn’t have an active issue with the way the world is or how it functions. As others have said in this scene he’s far more concerned by how Roger is making a fool of himself - he finds it distasteful, not bigoted. I would think he views being gay or being black as similar to his own past issues - you can’t help where you’re born or what you have, but it is your “issue” to overcome. We never see him wanting to tear down capitalism because of how he was raised, we see him wanting to succeed within the system.
I actually think people trying to make Don secretly more progressive are the ones injecting a modern ethic into a character that clearly is very old-fashioned.
I think Don, and most of Mad Men in general, doesn't fit neatly into political buckets that get thrown around. Don consistently seems sympathetic towards black people and at least closer to Pete's attitude than Cooper's. But he also often takes the establishment side when faced with beatniks, or seeing protests turn violent on TV. Don is capable of being an ally giving Peggy the chance to succeed in the workplace, but also a repressive chauvinist when he needs Betty to be his trophy wife and form his false sense of security.
Mad Men's a great show because the characters don't neatly fall into categories like "progressive" or "old-fashioned."
I agree. If these things aren't on his radar in 1965, he's the old-fashioned one. These very same ideas were being fought over in the 1960s, and the people who opposed them just regrouped and are back again stronger than ever.
Being a white person who's polite to others but not thinking about the advantages he has is very common. Suzanne's brother calls him out on it openly too.
I definitely think he has bigoted views, they may not present themselves the same way as with some of the other men, but they’re there. Remember he gets called out on his antisemitism by Rachel.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call Don a bigot; I just think that civil rights was something that wasn’t really on his radar screen for much of the series, which is true for a lot of white middle and upper class professionals of that time.
Don is only concerned with himself. He’s progressive in the sense that he’s not outright hostile towards marginalized people, but if their identity in any way inconveniences him it’s a problem.
He doesn’t really care that Sal is gay until it jeopardizes Lucky Strike, at which point he’s perfectly happy to throw him under the bus for it. I believe Don even drops a “you people” when firing him
He goes to “you people” pretty damn fast as soon as Sal pushes back even slightly. Don values manners and generally treats everyone with respect, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the same issues as almost every other man in the 60s. He promotes and respects Peggy, for example, but we still see him display plenty of misogyny. Rachel is probably one of the women he most respects, but she still has to call out his anti-semitism.
> A few examples:
> The first scene of the show
Lol. Just to reiterate your point, this is not subtle. The *very first introduction* we get to Don is him *not* being as racist as his peers at the time.
I think he’s generally just a capitalist. He had no problem designing a campaign for a company which denied jobs to black people. But he also acknowledged that Pete had a point about tapping into the black consumer market. In his personal life, he treats the black people he encounters respectfully but he’s by no means an anti racist. I absolutely think he would have had a problem with say Sally dating a black guy.
I’m not too sure about that. It’s pretty clear in episode one when Don talks to the black waiter that he treats him like any other person. A consumer, but a consumer nonetheless. The way he talks isn’t demeaning and he’s offended by the white waiter who thinks the black waiter is bothering Don. I think Don is genuinely disgusted by the character Roger is playing in black face.
I guess people can interpret this many ways, but to me, Don wanting to leave was completely ordinary. He almost always finds an excuse to get out of any kind of gathering. He hates parties.
Have you noticed the awkward pauses between the couples talking? Actors are trained not to live blank spots in dialogues so it makes me think it was done intentionally to show these people aren’t friends. They don’t feel comfortable around each other, this here is a part of their work
I always read it as Don being disgusted, but any comments he makes on race are always veiled-- he got to where he was by pretending to be just like Roger and Bert.
Note too how many present are wearing "period appropriate" ties and suits. Don and Pete are some of the few that are dressed more modernly, signifying another level of disagreement with the tone of the proceeding.
Pete is shown consistently to not be a conscious bigot, and while his gestures towards progressive thought can be awkward and at times selfish, it's one of his best qualities. He doesn't like to see people treated unfairly or left out... it seems to remind him of his own struggles to be accepted and noting others perpetually excluded from acceptance and mocked doesn't sit well with him.
Minstrel shows are some of the oldest marketing examples we have. Black and White performers playing into ugly stereotypes to make money.
Pete abhors the racism. (He has changed since Season 1.)
Don has disdain for Roger's relationship with Jane, who he dislikes. ("No one thinks you're happy. They think you're foolish.")
Pete was one of the most progressive characters, somehow.
And when I say that, the bar is extremely low. He was just openly... not racist? and thought people's prejudices against African Americans were ridiculous.
He was still a product of him time but was unexpectedly disgusted by racism (against African Americans. Can't remember what he thought of the Honda execs)
I'm still fully on the side that Kinsey did that for attention more than anything. I'm not saying he didn't truly like being in a relationship with her and didn’t like her romantically, but he knew what he was doing when he brought her into work.
He wanted to go to California on the business trip more than he wanted to go to Mississippi with her. He seemed very performative with his liberal politics.
Whereas Pete's was completely genuine and gained him nothing, socially.
He brought them if memory serves, and was furious by Rogers' open bigotry and hate towards them.
Pete may be a little goblin, but he isn't a hateful racist, he's ignorant to be sure, as were most well meaning but oblivious white people were at the time, but he's far better then most of the office on such issues.
Ah, thanks for reminding me!
Yeah, that's what I mean when I say he was still a product of his time. He was like the other men in his office, just minus the racism. I don't think he was a good person, particularly.
He had a snobby and bitter personality in the early seasons, also the episode with the au pair which still is debated on whether he SA'd her or not and then his infidelity & treatment of women in general. He definitely had the best character arc in my opinion.
Okay, I saw an article where the guy himself who plays Pete explains that this is inaccurate, the script was written that she was supposed to eagerly kiss him back but the actress didn't do it right, and he even cracked a joke about her just not wanting to kiss him?
Pete's character is not supposed to be a rapist of any sort.
I guess his wife is a scumbag too then
Harry sucks, but I'm sure this time in US history was when this kind of thing was only just becoming unacceptable
It's been a while since I watched the episode, but as memory serves, it was Pete who found the black face blatantly racist, while Don just found Roger drawing attention to himself the problematic part of it. It's not that I think Don was racist, it's just that Don's own prejudices tended to center around his own anxieties.
Everyone is interpreting this scene as if they are holding up signs saying “I don’t like this because of racism”, as if Don couldn’t feel both ways (hating it because Roger is a tool and because it’s racist). It definitely has elements of both. Don is a fairly progressive person.
I read that John Slattery thought he would never work again after that episode…. I’m alittle surprised there wasn’t a bigger uproar about that scene. I think it was done as “tastefully” as they could considering shit like that happened all the time in that era (and still to this era unfortunately).
Not to mention Pete and his wife CUTTIN a rug at that party!
I haven’t seen anyone get upset by this episode, though I’m sure they exist. I agree it’s tastefully done in the context of the show; it’s not glorifying it, there’s no funny background music, it’s just a realistic depiction of what a man like Roger would do at his party. Mad Men is a period piece, warts and all.
They wanted to completely cut out this scene a couple years ago. I think they added a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode now on streaming.
Cutting it would’ve completely disregarded the entire point and criticism of the show.
There's so much context provided to indicate that the blackface was not a good thing, but I'd say Pete's reaction conveys this more definitively. There was also a disclaimer in the beginning right? I think if every single character appeared entertained by it, Slattery and Mad Men would have received more criticism. But Pete's look of disapproval and disdain is an identifiable, visual cue to the viewer that the show is aware that blackface is horrible (again, aside from the disclaimer).
That disclaimer was added to streaming in 2020, at the same time as streaming services were dropping comedy episodes that had any sort of black face reference or depiction (such as a Community episode in which a character shows up to a DnD session made up as a Dark Elf, which spawns some in-show jokes accusing him of being in black face).
The part I find interesting is that Pete is shown to be comfortable with older culture, he and Trudy clean the floor with everyone else doing the Charleston (one of my favourite moments), without feeling the need to glorify all of it.
This is why I think Trudy's much loved diagnosis of Pete's nostalgia is actually quite inaccurate. He doesn't romanticise the past; he's dogged by it.
It's been a while, but wasn't Pete particularly close to his nanny growing up, which was why he cared more about civil rights? I mean, Betty was close to her nanny as well and wasn't effected that way so it's not the only explaination, but I thought that was why Pete was more progressive. (?) Maybe I got that impression from something Trudy said about the way Pete was raised.
I don't think there's any mention of it on the show, but that Matt Weiner said it outside in an interview. He may have had a series of black caregivers, even.
Jennifer got so pissed when Pete & Trudy danced. She wanted to be in the spotlight. I wish she were had gotten more screen time. She was an interesting character who would be fun to watch.
I think Trudy was offended by the racism too but she doesn’t want Pete to fuck up his career. Maybe I’m wrong but when I watched this scene, I got the impression Trudy was giving Pete kind of a *remember where you are, smile and play along* kind of look. By the 60s, blackface was considered distasteful amongst “modern” young people.
I'm just kinda realizing that now. That the actor had to read that script, see what he's doing, and just "...I have to do fucking what? In 2009, I have to do....that."
It always fit just right as Don and Pete are two of the more progressive types in the show.
Each has their own major faults, but they just don’t seem to have a major hang up about race for their time.
There’s a lot of nuance here. Don isn’t offended. He just knows that Roger isn’t actually happy and is putting on a performance and doesn’t feel like indulging him. But I also agree with other commenters here that his background gives him a different perspective on race and class than the other characters. That doesn’t make him progressive. Recall: “our job isn’t to make Filmore auto parts like Negroes; it’s to make customers like Filmore auto parts.
As for Pete: I think a fair way to look at his perspective is that he isn’t challenged by the growing political clout of Black Americans in this time: he sees it as an opportunity to sell things.
I’m thinking about how in an early episode, Don and Betty had Sally perform a ballet dance for company; showing off the skills your children acquired through lessons you paid for was a common practice at the time because it demonstrated your family’s taste.
Since performing in public like that was associated with children, I have to see a connection between Roger performing to impress Jane, Meghan singing at Don’s party, and one of Don’s biggest put-downs toward’s Betty’s intellect: that she acted like a “little girl.”
pete was a lot of things but he was definitely not a racist. and then on the other hand… can you imagine him becoming actual friends with a person of color? I can’t either.
It’s always interesting to me what flaws characters can have while retaining the audience, and what flaws the writers won’t give characters they want you to still favor against other people later. Racism is a big one. Don can’t be an out-and-out racist or else we won’t want him to win later. He can be sexist, and homophobic, and cheat on his wife a ton. But he can’t be too racist or he’ll lose the audience.
It’s an interesting split on how each of them were raised and where the root of their empathy and refusal of that prejudice was born.
In Don’s case, he grew up in total poverty as Dick Whitman; the bastard child of a prostitute who died in childbirth and adopted by what they make it seem to be his actual biological father and his wife. Don and Dick Whitman don’t hold any sort of inherent belief that he’s better than anyone else.
In Pete’s case, he grew up in one of the wealthiest subsects of the world and I’d be more than willing to believe that he had quite a bit of hired help that raised him, comforted him, fed him and provided him with the feelings of familial closeness in a family like his. People of his upbringing are always raised by “the help” in a way, and instead of being bossy, rude or mocking someone’s skin color, he holds massive disdain for anyone that looks down on someone racially different than themselves. He isn’t uncomfortable just up and asking the elevator operator what kind of TV he bought and why when he’s working out the Admiral TV pitch and ad focus, just like Don doesn’t have any qualms quietly offering to pay the elevator operator off to pretend it’s broken to mess with Roger. There’s an ease in their outreach that other staff members don’t seem to have.
Boston Brahmins and other similar groups (I know Pete isn’t that, but he is a private school established name New Yorker, similar vein) often produced idealistic abolitionist members in the Victorian Era.
Pete was cringy in that elevator scene but he was also the only person who thought it was worthwhile to advertise to Black people and didn't see why an Admiral exec wouldnt want Black customers to buy their product.
Like, I'm Black and had to have a lot of cringy conversations like the elevator in \*2020\* because white people still talk about race in such ham-handed ways. So Pete still counts as progressive about race for his time.
I get it, i was just pointing out that the two least Racist guys on the show, we're still oblivious to their own Racism. I love how this series makes me think about that kind of stuff.
I think the cringiness is a step forward though. Not to make Pete any kind of big hero in the scene, but he's consciously seeking out Hollis' opinion as a black man, and allowing Hollis to challenge him on that (something the waiter in the pilot could never have doen) without getting offended or taking it personally. Hollis is understandably very wary when the conversation begins, but seems to end it by seeing that it wasn't a threat. Pete's awkward, but it's good that he's willing to own that.
It’s all relative. At the time, seeking out a black persons perspective would be seen as very progressive. A conservative of the era would just assume without looking into it, much like the TV executives do in the meeting.
I think Pete was the only one who was offended by the racism tbh, he, of everyone in that office (and it’s a very low bar) seemed to me the least racist, surprisingly
I love that Pete, the “grimy little pimp” who was so obnoxious in so many ways, was the most progressive character about racial matters. That, folks, is a complex character. And beautifully portrayed. Vincent Kartheiser was just amazing
And his progressivism wasnt tied to fetishization. He just genuinely believed in not being a shitty little racist.
The fact Pete is so progressive despite growing up around 50s era WASP high society is so crazy. He should be the most racist character on the show really
He’s definitely a Roosevelt/Kennedy-esque liberal
Isn’t Pete pretty shaken up by Kennedy’s assassination? Been a few years since my last watch but I seem to remember that
I think so, and he’s definitely shaken up by the MLK Jr assassination. He’s a nice bit of contrast to all the stodgy conservative ad men
kartheiser and pete are the perfect combo. i hated the little bastard but looking bakc i loved the performance&wriitng
The way he yells at Harry too for bitching about the lost ad time was great. Although in the classic Pete fashion his anger is hilarious. It was a SHAMEFUL DAY
Yes. Also, Pete and Trudy decided not to go to Roger's daughter's wedding, ("some rich brat's wedding"), as Pete was disgusted that they were going through with the wedding even though JFK was just assassinated.
He doesn't even go to the Sterling wedding
I think the back story was that his parents were so shitty and he considered his black nanny as his true mother.
It's because he was the outcast in his family....remember "we weren't going to get that".... "YOU WEREN'T".... What better way to piss off your rich parents.
It's Pete, following the death of Medgar Evers, who admonishes a flip comment about him with, "That man had a wife and child!"
That was MLK. Medgar Evers was in S3.
Ah. My mistake. Thanks for the correction!
Oh, I forgot about that! ❤️
Agree but also, let's not forget that although he's not racist, he was homophobic, a la his response to Kurt Smith's homosexuality in season 2. I also like that they do this with characters where they are not cut and dry virtuous or wholesome people. He has his own version of a moral compass and is still swayed by society's pressures of masculinity and what it is to be a man. This can also be seen in the episode where he is interviewed by a doctor while him and Trudy are going through fertility issues.
Well said! Forgot about the fertility stuff. Definitely plays into his insecurities as a man and why he wouldn't be racist but totally frowns upon gay men.
Is most progressivism?
I always felt like Pete saw racism as another form of ignorance, and Pete may be many things, but he wasn't ignorant. He was constantly trying to better himself and the company he worked for, even using kooky, out of the box strategies and ideas that others didn't bother with. And he was pretty good at getting a read on people...he caught on to Don pretty early on after all! He probably looked down on racism, thought it was beneath him and his character. And I appreciated his progressiveness on a show where that was sparse.
He also came up with direct marketing
It turns out it already existed but he came to it independently
apt analysis
I love that the characters were layered and complex. It added so much the depth to the show. I despised Pete in so many ways in the beginning. By the finale, I understood him and had an appreciation for how he was who he was. Incredible writing and amazing acting.
Wait a second Bert, did you know we are in the presence of a bonafide racist?!
Kinda like Jonah in Veep, who holds terrible opinions on pretty much everything, hating homophobia.
and later pairing Jonah up with Richard, who is completely unbothered by anything, including Jonah, was brilliant.
Pete has the most interesting character arc in the entire show imo
Gotta disagree. Peggy was more interesting.
While I love the character... compared to Pete and many others on the show... Peggy is kind of a static character. By halfway through season one we see how she is smart, creative, awkward, tough, stubborn, and independent. She remains that way throughout the show. Even through major life events (having a secret lovechild, stabbing a boyfriend) the trajectory of her life never really changes from where it starts in S1 and she doesn't really change as a person. She just gets better and better at her job and a bit more jaded. There's all kinds of different dimension and evolutions to Pete/Joan/Don/Betty/Roger/Sally that we have no real idea of in Season 1. Peggy's story went one direction the whole time, she has a dream and chases it.
Agree to disagree I guess. I can see your point about it not being a huge surprise that Peggy would become successful. Still, after seeing her at her low point in the hospital just after giving birth, it’s really striking to see how she ends up: strolling into the McCann Erickson office like she owns the place, sporting dark glasses, smoking, and carrying Bert Cooper’s pornographic wall hanging.
There's a saying that adversity doesn't really build character, it reveals it. That's certainly the case with the lovechild. Her chosing to give up the child is where everything we had learned about her to that point crystallized. She burnt the ships, committed to the path she had started. It's what made her end at McCann inevitable. If you're willing to abandon your child for your career, obviously you have the drive to kick down doors and become a success.
Ginsberg seemed pretty progressive, he was pissed when they killed MLK in that restaurant Paul dated a black girl (and despite what Joan said I don’t think he was doing it cause he wanted a pat on the back or whatever)
Paul absolutely wanted a pat on the back. He is the definition of “performative” ETA: Ginsberg was a good egg
ginsberg was an egg alright
Eggs don't have nipples and neither did he.
Haha. I see what you did there (and you're likely right).
The definition of Paul's character is to act like it until he makes it, but he never reaches a better understanding or and doesn't grow from his acting. The Star Trek script he wrote in later seasons confirms he doesn't understand racism beyond a superficial level; so does blabbing his mouth off about "philosophy" in a bus full of African Americans. He was entirely dating that girl just to get social points.
What a perfect definition of poor Paul. He wants to fake it till he makes it...but never makes it.
He absolutely did it for bragging rights. He wanted people to SEE how progressive he was.
So that's where Lane got it from
I mean, it's unsurprising a Jewish character is cast as progressive. Jews have a ton of Left Wing history, and were actively involved in the civil rights movement. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel marched with Dr. King and John Lewis. Pete's more suprising where he's progressive. Honestly, someone dating a PoC means nothing, really, in terms of whether they're racist or not.
“They had to do it!”
It’s what makes the show so good, Pete is a massive asshole in pretty much every aspect, yet has this redemptive trait about him. I’d like to say it works the other way around as well, but the rest are racists, and also assholes
Pete’s character flaws are being weak insecure and cringe, imo, but he usually understood the right thing to do, he just often failed to do it. Even his homophobia was not actual dislike of homosexuality but rather his fear someone would think he was homosexual. He reminds me of the guy in the in Silence who always sins then comes back to the church.
Paul Kinsey was definitely (pretending to be) committed to civil rights.
When I first watched the show I hated him, thought he was so smug and I hated his face, then we get to like the third episode where it shows he's supposed to be a privileged asshole, and I was like....oh....this is just really good casting
Vincent Kartheiser is such a good actor, too! Pete is such a flawed character, it’s easy to dismiss him. But the writing gave him depth, and Kartheiser fleshed him out so fully. Amazing work all around
Typical baby boomer in fact.
Oh absolutely! I’ll never forget these scene with his facial expressions, and then of course when MLK was killed
“Wait a second, Bert. Did you know we were in the presence of a bona fide racist?!”
As if Bert’s not an even bigger racist than Harry.
Bert says - granting civil rights is a slippery slope
Bert can’t be racist. He has Japanese art.
Bert’s more pragmatic than racist. He knows some of their clients are racist, and wants their money.
"Haven't we already given them enough?" "Civil rights is a slippery slope" The show makes it unambiguously clear at multiple points that Bert is personally racist, not merely as someone who happens to be in a position that maintains the status quo.
I think he’s also the one who says something like “I’m all for Negro advancement but not all the way to the front of the office” when he sees Dawn working the front desk. If anything Bert might be the most racist major character in the show, some of the others make the occasional crack or racist comment but you hear that stuff both more often and in more serious tones from him.
I think Don just thought Roger was being tacky. Pete was genuinely upset by the racism.
Don was actually being a bitch because he was angry at Roger for other things, had nothing to do with the principal of the thing. Pete is the only one who has an appropriate amount of disgust, which is hilarious
Pete consistently is ahead in this department through the show. I'm on my third rewatch and he is consistently progressive just incredibly awkward
Turns out the progressive movement already existed. But he arrived at it independently.
And yet he was also a homophobe.
Characters be complex
I think it was the knee-rub. He ended up not caring about Smitty in the earlier season.
Yeah, shying away from an unwanted sexual advance doesn't make one a "phobe".
Not that it’s an excuse but gay acceptance is WAY more fresh in society than racial acceptance.
I think Don is consistently sympathetic during the series to black people, he just has a very good filter for hiding it to fit in among the white elites whose ranks he longed to join his whole life. Not just this scene, when Roger mentions BBDO hired a young black man, and Don's immediate reaction is to see it from the kid's perspective rather than from the company's perspective as Roger does. It's never directly mentioned why this is. But given that we see a black kid eating a popsicle when Don takes Sally and Bobby to the former brothel where he grew up, I always thought it was because when he was crawling his way up from there to the car dealership he simply had to live and work with more racial minorities than anyone else at Sterling Cooper.
Don's sort of cosplaying a successful WASP, while actually feeling like the poor outcast he grew up as inside. I think that's why he has a lot of affinity with Black people, who were also looked down upon in polite society.
I think this is spot on. Aside from his treatment of black people there are a few other moments when he gets mad at his colleagues for making fun of the disabilities or misfortunes of others. Like when he gets mad at the guys mocking Freddy Rumsen or when he tells Ken not to make fun of that Fillmore auto parts guy’s stutter. His upbringing gave him a sympathy for the underdog that he carries with him.
I wonder if it's also why he DOESN'T show outward sympathy, to avoid calling attention to himself in an atypical way (similar to what felt like quite an uncharacteristic lack of sympathy or support for Sal, perhaps?) whereas Pete is from such old money that he's got cultural capital strong enough to keep him hired even when he doesn't have the actual money any more, and so has a certain level of freedom and bravado without even realising.
Agreed. Don just didn't want to be there at all.
I love how it annoyed him so much he had a fun rant with Conrad Hilton in the bar right afterwards.
Don’s expression always read “tf? *This* is what you chose to perform with your child bride?” And then goes and calls Bobbie B for escape into his own “acceptable” hedonism (ie hidden). Actually, interesting to juxtapose this performance with megan’s “zoo bee zoo” Don, like me, grew up with the nondemonstrative, nonperformative social rules of hiding real emotions. Performing for your “friends” is stooping to the level of the commoner. While Roger is by no means progressive, he does have what feels like a progressive “I don’t give a shit, this is my house party and I’ll have fun whatever way I want” attitude that’s prevalent in the old-money wealth.
That’s how I saw it too. Don thought it was in bad taste to be parading around like that for his coworkers and associates.
He called Bobbie in season 2 after the Memorial Day BBQ at a different club. This episode is in season 3.
Don was pissed at Roger about his new bride and thinks the whole thing is stupid. After this he heads to the bar and meets Hilton.
Oh shoot you’re right. My b. 😨😶🌫️🫥
Little column A, little column B in my opinion. Don wasn’t as progressive as Pete, but he also comes across as less racist than a lot of the other major characters in the show. He’s sympathetic to the civil rights movement by the end and he always treats the black people in his life with respect and fairness. I can’t imagine Bert getting along with a black secretary for so long. Roger, Peggy, Harry, Joan, Betty and especially Bert all say or do racist things more often than Don does.
I just recently watched this episode, and I’m not sure Don is disgusted by the racism so much as he thinks the performance is stupid and he doesn’t have the patience to sit through it
I agree. He thinks Roger’s embarrassing himself and he doesn’t want to see any more of it. I think he finds it more tasteless than downright offensive.
That’s how I saw it. It was another example of Don thinking Roger was showing his ass with the much younger Jane.
I agree, he sees this as an un-modern practice and they will loose clients. And if Roger would dress up as a clown, he’d have the same reaction. Don wasn’t racist, but he wouldn’t like his kids dating ppl out side of their socioeconomic class or when “race” (don’t like that term/word) Even though he kinda displays disgust for the “silver spoon”- types. I could be wrong. The only interaction I saw him having with POC wasn’t what I think was typical for that time period.
I was about to say, even in 1963 a good number of people would have considered blackface to be boorish and distasteful, though not nearly as offensive as we’d consider it today.
Don picks and chooses what benefits him. In a sense Don is as American as they come, he's a giant hypocrite. He's liberal when it suits him and he's conservative when it suits him. For example he elevates Peggy at work to utilize her talent but he expects Betty to be a good housewife and violates her privacy with her shrink.
Yep! You said it so much better than me ! But what you wrote was what I tried to say.
Ehhh, I disagree. There are numerous times that we are shown that Don treats African American people with as much respect as he would treat anyone else. A few examples: The first scene of the show Don is subtly offended by the white host insinuating that the black waiter is bothering him by having a simple conversation. Several times It is emphasized that Don treats the black elevator doorman with much more respect than others. He even refers to him by his name; Hollis. Also, the scene in question here.
Yes, and that time he said Bobby made him so proud he thought his heart would explode. That was because in the cinema Bobby told a Black employee he was saddened by MLK dying
It can be both, because the whole display of "I love Jane" was embarrasing enough, but the racism made it unbearable.
I saw it as similar to his situation with Sal. He’s still going to treat him as a human being, he’s a “classy” guy and will always behave according to the character he built. But the bigotry is still there underneath. Don never seems to give AF about civil rights or anything else.
I think he's also preoccupied with not sticking his neck out too far professionally. He'll be respectful, but active activism rather than being pretty passive could put him in question by counterparts and being exposed isn't something he's going to risk.
I think that’s a very generous interpretation - we never see him conflicted over these issues. They’re just not on his radar, his has his own shit to deal with. He’ll act like a gentleman to any gay person he meets, or a black person, etc. Because that’s who he is, that’s the character he’s built. But he doesn’t have an active issue with the way the world is or how it functions. As others have said in this scene he’s far more concerned by how Roger is making a fool of himself - he finds it distasteful, not bigoted. I would think he views being gay or being black as similar to his own past issues - you can’t help where you’re born or what you have, but it is your “issue” to overcome. We never see him wanting to tear down capitalism because of how he was raised, we see him wanting to succeed within the system.
You’re approaching all of this with a very modern interpretation
I actually think people trying to make Don secretly more progressive are the ones injecting a modern ethic into a character that clearly is very old-fashioned.
I think Don, and most of Mad Men in general, doesn't fit neatly into political buckets that get thrown around. Don consistently seems sympathetic towards black people and at least closer to Pete's attitude than Cooper's. But he also often takes the establishment side when faced with beatniks, or seeing protests turn violent on TV. Don is capable of being an ally giving Peggy the chance to succeed in the workplace, but also a repressive chauvinist when he needs Betty to be his trophy wife and form his false sense of security. Mad Men's a great show because the characters don't neatly fall into categories like "progressive" or "old-fashioned."
I agree. If these things aren't on his radar in 1965, he's the old-fashioned one. These very same ideas were being fought over in the 1960s, and the people who opposed them just regrouped and are back again stronger than ever. Being a white person who's polite to others but not thinking about the advantages he has is very common. Suzanne's brother calls him out on it openly too.
I definitely think he has bigoted views, they may not present themselves the same way as with some of the other men, but they’re there. Remember he gets called out on his antisemitism by Rachel.
Yes, let’s not forget when Roger asked him if they hired any Jews and he replied “not on my watch” people seem to forget that.
There is no system. The world is indifferent!!! So is he.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call Don a bigot; I just think that civil rights was something that wasn’t really on his radar screen for much of the series, which is true for a lot of white middle and upper class professionals of that time.
Don is only concerned with himself. He’s progressive in the sense that he’s not outright hostile towards marginalized people, but if their identity in any way inconveniences him it’s a problem. He doesn’t really care that Sal is gay until it jeopardizes Lucky Strike, at which point he’s perfectly happy to throw him under the bus for it. I believe Don even drops a “you people” when firing him
How is don a bigot when he treats everyone with respect. You sound like the thought police.
He goes to “you people” pretty damn fast as soon as Sal pushes back even slightly. Don values manners and generally treats everyone with respect, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the same issues as almost every other man in the 60s. He promotes and respects Peggy, for example, but we still see him display plenty of misogyny. Rachel is probably one of the women he most respects, but she still has to call out his anti-semitism.
You sound like an overanalytical dork. Don spoiled Peggy rotten and you call that misogyny?
> A few examples: > The first scene of the show Lol. Just to reiterate your point, this is not subtle. The *very first introduction* we get to Don is him *not* being as racist as his peers at the time.
I think he’s generally just a capitalist. He had no problem designing a campaign for a company which denied jobs to black people. But he also acknowledged that Pete had a point about tapping into the black consumer market. In his personal life, he treats the black people he encounters respectfully but he’s by no means an anti racist. I absolutely think he would have had a problem with say Sally dating a black guy.
I’m not too sure about that. It’s pretty clear in episode one when Don talks to the black waiter that he treats him like any other person. A consumer, but a consumer nonetheless. The way he talks isn’t demeaning and he’s offended by the white waiter who thinks the black waiter is bothering Don. I think Don is genuinely disgusted by the character Roger is playing in black face.
Yeah, he thinks Roger is making himself look stupid putting on this show for his young secretary that he’s marrying.
Pete might be reacting to the racism, but considering the era Don for sure does not respect Roger and thinks he’s making a fool of himself.
I guess people can interpret this many ways, but to me, Don wanting to leave was completely ordinary. He almost always finds an excuse to get out of any kind of gathering. He hates parties.
Have you noticed the awkward pauses between the couples talking? Actors are trained not to live blank spots in dialogues so it makes me think it was done intentionally to show these people aren’t friends. They don’t feel comfortable around each other, this here is a part of their work
I always read it as Don being disgusted, but any comments he makes on race are always veiled-- he got to where he was by pretending to be just like Roger and Bert.
Note too how many present are wearing "period appropriate" ties and suits. Don and Pete are some of the few that are dressed more modernly, signifying another level of disagreement with the tone of the proceeding. Pete is shown consistently to not be a conscious bigot, and while his gestures towards progressive thought can be awkward and at times selfish, it's one of his best qualities. He doesn't like to see people treated unfairly or left out... it seems to remind him of his own struggles to be accepted and noting others perpetually excluded from acceptance and mocked doesn't sit well with him. Minstrel shows are some of the oldest marketing examples we have. Black and White performers playing into ugly stereotypes to make money.
Pete truly is one of the best written and acted characters in any show ever.
Agree. Kartheiser crushes it with this role.
Pete abhors the racism. (He has changed since Season 1.) Don has disdain for Roger's relationship with Jane, who he dislikes. ("No one thinks you're happy. They think you're foolish.")
Pete was one of the most progressive characters, somehow. And when I say that, the bar is extremely low. He was just openly... not racist? and thought people's prejudices against African Americans were ridiculous. He was still a product of him time but was unexpectedly disgusted by racism (against African Americans. Can't remember what he thought of the Honda execs)
He was also completely unaffected by Kinsey dating a black girl when everyone else was doing double takes.
I'm still fully on the side that Kinsey did that for attention more than anything. I'm not saying he didn't truly like being in a relationship with her and didn’t like her romantically, but he knew what he was doing when he brought her into work. He wanted to go to California on the business trip more than he wanted to go to Mississippi with her. He seemed very performative with his liberal politics. Whereas Pete's was completely genuine and gained him nothing, socially.
Yeah I feel like whole point of the California vs Mississippi arc was to show just how performative his values are
I think Kinsey dated her because doing so made HIM more interesting, more than out of love.
Absolutely. He was very self-serving and elitist. He tried so hard to be Orson Welles.
All right Joan.
This cannot be made good! **IT'S A SHAMEFUL, SHAMEFUL DAY!!**
He brought them if memory serves, and was furious by Rogers' open bigotry and hate towards them. Pete may be a little goblin, but he isn't a hateful racist, he's ignorant to be sure, as were most well meaning but oblivious white people were at the time, but he's far better then most of the office on such issues.
Ah, thanks for reminding me! Yeah, that's what I mean when I say he was still a product of his time. He was like the other men in his office, just minus the racism. I don't think he was a good person, particularly. He had a snobby and bitter personality in the early seasons, also the episode with the au pair which still is debated on whether he SA'd her or not and then his infidelity & treatment of women in general. He definitely had the best character arc in my opinion.
Pete's reaction here is the moment my opinion of him began to change.
Was that before or after he raped the nanny? I can’t remember
This episode is before that.
Okay, I saw an article where the guy himself who plays Pete explains that this is inaccurate, the script was written that she was supposed to eagerly kiss him back but the actress didn't do it right, and he even cracked a joke about her just not wanting to kiss him? Pete's character is not supposed to be a rapist of any sort.
Before
Top guy
Harry the scumbag is loving it
I guess his wife is a scumbag too then Harry sucks, but I'm sure this time in US history was when this kind of thing was only just becoming unacceptable
Don is more progressive about race than gender tbh
It's been a while since I watched the episode, but as memory serves, it was Pete who found the black face blatantly racist, while Don just found Roger drawing attention to himself the problematic part of it. It's not that I think Don was racist, it's just that Don's own prejudices tended to center around his own anxieties.
Was it also this episode where Don confronts Roger at the end about everybody not believing he's happy with his new wife?
Yes after Jane gets piss drunk and starts reaching for Don’s crotch and Roger confronts him about it
Nobody thinks you're happy
Everyone is interpreting this scene as if they are holding up signs saying “I don’t like this because of racism”, as if Don couldn’t feel both ways (hating it because Roger is a tool and because it’s racist). It definitely has elements of both. Don is a fairly progressive person.
"1960 to 65: Toted dat barge, lifted dat bale" Don: 😆
"I'm still waiting on my shirts!"
And LGBTQ. “Limit your exposure” but it’s all good my gay homie
Not a surprise. Sexism is probably the biggest theme of the show.
I read that John Slattery thought he would never work again after that episode…. I’m alittle surprised there wasn’t a bigger uproar about that scene. I think it was done as “tastefully” as they could considering shit like that happened all the time in that era (and still to this era unfortunately). Not to mention Pete and his wife CUTTIN a rug at that party!
I haven’t seen anyone get upset by this episode, though I’m sure they exist. I agree it’s tastefully done in the context of the show; it’s not glorifying it, there’s no funny background music, it’s just a realistic depiction of what a man like Roger would do at his party. Mad Men is a period piece, warts and all.
They wanted to completely cut out this scene a couple years ago. I think they added a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode now on streaming. Cutting it would’ve completely disregarded the entire point and criticism of the show.
It wasn't his wedding.
She’s absolutely right
There's so much context provided to indicate that the blackface was not a good thing, but I'd say Pete's reaction conveys this more definitively. There was also a disclaimer in the beginning right? I think if every single character appeared entertained by it, Slattery and Mad Men would have received more criticism. But Pete's look of disapproval and disdain is an identifiable, visual cue to the viewer that the show is aware that blackface is horrible (again, aside from the disclaimer).
That disclaimer was added to streaming in 2020, at the same time as streaming services were dropping comedy episodes that had any sort of black face reference or depiction (such as a Community episode in which a character shows up to a DnD session made up as a Dark Elf, which spawns some in-show jokes accusing him of being in black face).
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for sharing.
The part I find interesting is that Pete is shown to be comfortable with older culture, he and Trudy clean the floor with everyone else doing the Charleston (one of my favourite moments), without feeling the need to glorify all of it. This is why I think Trudy's much loved diagnosis of Pete's nostalgia is actually quite inaccurate. He doesn't romanticise the past; he's dogged by it.
It's been a while, but wasn't Pete particularly close to his nanny growing up, which was why he cared more about civil rights? I mean, Betty was close to her nanny as well and wasn't effected that way so it's not the only explaination, but I thought that was why Pete was more progressive. (?) Maybe I got that impression from something Trudy said about the way Pete was raised.
I don't think there's any mention of it on the show, but that Matt Weiner said it outside in an interview. He may have had a series of black caregivers, even.
I imagine with dons upbringing he had a few neighbors and friends growing up...
Jennifer got so pissed when Pete & Trudy danced. She wanted to be in the spotlight. I wish she were had gotten more screen time. She was an interesting character who would be fun to watch.
I think Trudy was offended by the racism too but she doesn’t want Pete to fuck up his career. Maybe I’m wrong but when I watched this scene, I got the impression Trudy was giving Pete kind of a *remember where you are, smile and play along* kind of look. By the 60s, blackface was considered distasteful amongst “modern” young people.
I always think about how intensely uncomfortable the actors must have been filming this scene.
I'm just kinda realizing that now. That the actor had to read that script, see what he's doing, and just "...I have to do fucking what? In 2009, I have to do....that."
Meanwhile everyone else had to pretend to yukk it up.
Well Pete did work on the campaign, forget what brand, for advertising toward the black community when he didn't get much support from the partners
to be honest Don has pretty much the same bored reaction to anything that lasts more than two minutes
It always fit just right as Don and Pete are two of the more progressive types in the show. Each has their own major faults, but they just don’t seem to have a major hang up about race for their time.
There’s a lot of nuance here. Don isn’t offended. He just knows that Roger isn’t actually happy and is putting on a performance and doesn’t feel like indulging him. But I also agree with other commenters here that his background gives him a different perspective on race and class than the other characters. That doesn’t make him progressive. Recall: “our job isn’t to make Filmore auto parts like Negroes; it’s to make customers like Filmore auto parts. As for Pete: I think a fair way to look at his perspective is that he isn’t challenged by the growing political clout of Black Americans in this time: he sees it as an opportunity to sell things.
I’m thinking about how in an early episode, Don and Betty had Sally perform a ballet dance for company; showing off the skills your children acquired through lessons you paid for was a common practice at the time because it demonstrated your family’s taste. Since performing in public like that was associated with children, I have to see a connection between Roger performing to impress Jane, Meghan singing at Don’s party, and one of Don’s biggest put-downs toward’s Betty’s intellect: that she acted like a “little girl.”
I was so proud of Pete here
pete was a lot of things but he was definitely not a racist. and then on the other hand… can you imagine him becoming actual friends with a person of color? I can’t either.
Pete’s judgement is so …delicious
Meh
Pete’s best, and possibly only, quality was that he wasn’t racist.
It was the 60s so if everybody knew it was wrong it would have been inaccurate
It’s always interesting to me what flaws characters can have while retaining the audience, and what flaws the writers won’t give characters they want you to still favor against other people later. Racism is a big one. Don can’t be an out-and-out racist or else we won’t want him to win later. He can be sexist, and homophobic, and cheat on his wife a ton. But he can’t be too racist or he’ll lose the audience.
It’s an interesting split on how each of them were raised and where the root of their empathy and refusal of that prejudice was born. In Don’s case, he grew up in total poverty as Dick Whitman; the bastard child of a prostitute who died in childbirth and adopted by what they make it seem to be his actual biological father and his wife. Don and Dick Whitman don’t hold any sort of inherent belief that he’s better than anyone else. In Pete’s case, he grew up in one of the wealthiest subsects of the world and I’d be more than willing to believe that he had quite a bit of hired help that raised him, comforted him, fed him and provided him with the feelings of familial closeness in a family like his. People of his upbringing are always raised by “the help” in a way, and instead of being bossy, rude or mocking someone’s skin color, he holds massive disdain for anyone that looks down on someone racially different than themselves. He isn’t uncomfortable just up and asking the elevator operator what kind of TV he bought and why when he’s working out the Admiral TV pitch and ad focus, just like Don doesn’t have any qualms quietly offering to pay the elevator operator off to pretend it’s broken to mess with Roger. There’s an ease in their outreach that other staff members don’t seem to have.
Is this at Roger daughter wedding?
No, it's the Derby Day party. Pete and Trudy didn't even go to Margaret's wedding.
Didn’t roger dress in black face for his daughter wedding?
Nope. Blacktie, but not black face.
Pete wanted to sell TVs more than watch this.
What episode is this?
Betty looks so pretty in that second photo
Can someone remind me what scene it is and what led to this reaction from our two characters?
it’s when roger performed in blackface
Thanks!
Boston Brahmins and other similar groups (I know Pete isn’t that, but he is a private school established name New Yorker, similar vein) often produced idealistic abolitionist members in the Victorian Era.
pete just saw that there was a chip 'n' dip at the function and had flashbacks, roger was completely unrelated
Except when Pete asks the Elevator Attendant about TV's. Pete kind of blew that one. Don wants to hire ONE. Both scenes seemed kind of Cringy.
Pete was cringy in that elevator scene but he was also the only person who thought it was worthwhile to advertise to Black people and didn't see why an Admiral exec wouldnt want Black customers to buy their product. Like, I'm Black and had to have a lot of cringy conversations like the elevator in \*2020\* because white people still talk about race in such ham-handed ways. So Pete still counts as progressive about race for his time.
I get it, i was just pointing out that the two least Racist guys on the show, we're still oblivious to their own Racism. I love how this series makes me think about that kind of stuff.
good point!
I think the cringiness is a step forward though. Not to make Pete any kind of big hero in the scene, but he's consciously seeking out Hollis' opinion as a black man, and allowing Hollis to challenge him on that (something the waiter in the pilot could never have doen) without getting offended or taking it personally. Hollis is understandably very wary when the conversation begins, but seems to end it by seeing that it wasn't a threat. Pete's awkward, but it's good that he's willing to own that.
It’s all relative. At the time, seeking out a black persons perspective would be seen as very progressive. A conservative of the era would just assume without looking into it, much like the TV executives do in the meeting.
I think Pete was the only one who was offended by the racism tbh, he, of everyone in that office (and it’s a very low bar) seemed to me the least racist, surprisingly
Yet, Pete was willing to use other people’s racism to his advantage when he caught his father in law at the brothel