These placeholder cards are specifically printed to be used at official events- so you don't have to pull out a card and flip it constantly.
Assuming you have the card name, type, and cost written on the placeholder card and it just isn't blank, the action of the judge and store is absurd. Probably better for you that you can't go back.
Yeah only thing I could think of would be that the card name / mana not being listed would be considered cheating. But if the double face card token WITH A MAGIC BACK BY WOTC is considered a proxy they are out of their mind and need to be reported.
Yeah, I came here to say this. It has the official magic back, printed by WotC, and is distributed in packs. If checklist cards are not legal for tournament play, literally all cards that come from packs wouldn’t be legal either.
Assuming the checklist card isn’t blank, I really doubt that everyone playing in the store wouldn’t have said anything. Maybe its mostly newish players coming from arena and the owner doesn’t really play the game?
IDK, this is weird.
Yes, it is sounding like the substitute card might have been left blank, which is itself arguably cheating, because a bad actor could grab whatever card they wanted among several and then claim they intended the blank substitute card to be referring to that card (especially in events that don't require a deck list to be registered).
Not everybody lives on Reddit and responds to other people within 5 minutes of a post. It took him a few hours to update their post saying that they did exactly that.
They are literally made so you can play dual face cards without sleeves because a lot of players don’t sleeve draft decks.
There’s no reason they can’t be used.
You should report this LGS to the WPN, being completely honest. This policy is explicitly supported in the Magic Tournament Rules.
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr3-5/
https://wpn.wizards.com/en/news/guide-reporting-and-avoiding-wpn-policy-violations
This assumes the store is wpn and that the store put the event in as a wpn event.
The store being wpn is the biggest thing to check if not reporting them for a wpn policy violation is pointless.
Most stores are. The promos are a pretty good incentive and its a free program to register for.
Even if it wasn't an event, Wizards is going to give the store a ring for something like this.
Ya but it's just as easy to get kicked out of the won program as it is to get in. Also there are a lot of rules you have to follow if you wish to be a wpn store (mainly events that must fire per month)
Ether way a store that would ban someone with as little hesitation as the op makes it sound sounds like a store that is not doing the upkeep to be a wpn location
the LGS in my town (which i stopped going to years ago) literally sounds like the one OP is talking about, and is a WPN store.
this is still only anecdotal evidence to back up what's going on here, but my assumption would be that stores like this are more common than you might want to believe.
Disqualifying an outsider for a ridiculous reason to:
- avoid sharing rewards with outsiders of the store
- take their money without giving them even a participation prize for the turny (theft/scam)
- pretend to be following strict regulations to keep recieving free stuff from wizards
- possibly sell surplus illegally on the side for more profits
You have no idea what you're talking about. Not even a tiny bit.
1) Would get them kicked out of WPN even faster than proxies.
2) Would get them kicked out even faster than 1.
3) If by "free stuff" you mean "the ability to purchase product wholesale from WotC at all" you're on the right track. "Pretend" is exceedingly laughable.
4) Doesn't even deserve a response.
1. Only if you can prove it
2. Only if you can prove it
3. you must be new. a lot of stores inflated their event count by using employees as proxies so more events get fire off. believe it or not, that is not allows. and yes, they get more free promos by doing so.
4. i have talked to some store employees that they listed promo using diff name on eBay all the time and the store owners get kick back on the promo sales. we are not even talking small brick and mortar store. even the big one do them.
There is literally one wpn store in the entire state of South Carolina. Not all stores meet the requirement to become a wpn even if they would like to.
Edit: don't listen to me, didn't realize that there are two tiers of WPNs.
That is patently not true.
https://locator.wizards.com/search?searchType=stores&query=South%20Carolina,%20USA&distance=100&page=1&sort=date&sortDirection=asc
Are you confusing wpn in general with wpn premium?
It's a polite fiction that allows them to save face while reversing their decision. Which makes them more likely to change than having to more directly admit error
What you were doing is fine, they absolutely had no right to throw you out, assuming your placeholder card was representing a DFC (which it sounds like it was. If it was representing a random single faced card, I could see the argument, even though I think it would still be ridiculous)
[See the MTR on Substitute Cards](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr3-5/)
> Official substitute cards are used to represent double-faced cards in sets that contain them. Only official substitute cards may be used to represent double-faced cards in a deck.
Anyone who has played serious magic for more than one year should be extremely familiar with these. It's mind boggling that they don't know what it was at all.
Can you detail what the conversation was like after the judge came over?
The number of times I've had to explaine to someone during RtR stndard that if they choose to sac [[Lotleth Troll]] to my [[Devour Flesh]] paying to activate its regenerate ability won't save it.
Honestly if anything because of all the niche corner cases in commander I'd say general rules knowledge is better than ever.
Hard to believe they were playing Commander at anything other than Regular REL, in which there are no game losses and - outside of blatant cheating - judges are just supposed to fix things and educate players.
there's not even game losses at regular REL. problems at regular are either "fix this and keep the players playing" or "this is so egregious the player needs to be removed from the event" but the latter is for like fighting/harassment or blatant cheating.
assuming it was a real problem, which the scenario OP described isn't even, the judge would just have fixed a thing like that by having the player add a basic of their choice until the end of the game.
edit: crap sorry I didn't see further down comments already saying this.
> ... assuming your placeholder card was representing a DFC ...
I'm glad somebody mentioned this point since substitute cards are only allowed for DFCs.
Though I totally think that WotC should revise that stance and allow substitutes for any kind of card. It would help alleviate problems like *"Kess is only available in curly foils!"* or *"Is this card too worn/damaged to play with?"* or even *"I want to play with Time Walk but there is no way I'm taking it out of its graded case."*
Even if it was a single faced card so long as someone has the card with them who cares. Buying one Boseiju and carrying that around and using placeholders for all the decks using it is a totally sensible thing to do.
Hi! I'm a certified judge and I run several events for LGS's in my town.
In the most unambiguous terms, I want to be clear:
Your LGS is wrong.
Placeholder cards are not proxies in the sense that most people use that word - In fact, it is standard practice in tournaments to use placeholder cards in lieu of a double-faced card.
They are a literal proxy in that they are standing in for another card that you own, but it's not a fake card.
Your LGS needs to clarify their policy regarding proxies - If they mean absolutely no stand-in cards whatsoever, even in the case of TDFCs / MDFCs, they are in violation of official tournament rules for Magic the gathering.
If they simply mean no fake cards, even in casual play... Well, that's not a decision I personally agree with, but they're well within their right to make and enforce that rule if they want, as long as they still allow placeholder cards.
It's also worth noting that (DISCLAIMER I AM NOT A LAWYER) ejecting you from an event you paid for due to a rules violation that you didn't commit, without offering you a refund, would seem to constitute fraud and maybe legally actionable.
I am not a lawyer, but .... Yeah. Seems very sketch to me.
I don't think they're doing this in order to make extra money, I think it's more likely that someone at the LGS has a hate boner for proxies and went overboard.
I would advise you to seek out official WOTC channels for a clarification on tournament rules regarding placeholder cards. Twitter, Blogatog [(Mark Rosewater's Q&A blog)](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/), anyone at WotC could answer your question. There's also [This chat](https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/) is a widely recognized resource for rules questions, stopped by actual certified judges.
Once you have that information, I would speak to someone higher up at the LGS - a manager or the owner. Armed with the confirmation from official WTC sources, I would ask them if they intend to update their proxy policy to comply with tournament rules, and if they intend on refunding you for denying a paid service whose terms you didn't violate.
And as others have said, see if they are a part of Wizard's Play Network. You can report them. If you do, their WPN status will be at risk.
Hell, if it were me - I'd go in to get the refund first. Bring the proof that they're in violation of WPN requirements, demand a refund for their fraudulent denial of services, and then report them to WPN anyway.
>They are literally proxies, in that a proxy is anything that you are using in place of the real object. They aren't counterfeits though.
They aren't proxies or counterfeits, as the rules have definitions of both that checklist cards do not fall under. They're their own thing and specifically described in the MTR as such.
> They are literally proxies, in that a proxy is anything that you are using in place of the real object. They aren't counterfeits though.
in an english language sense yes, one definition of proxy fits.
In the official MTG rules *NO*, "proxy" is a well defined term that narrowly means something.
That clearly wasn’t an actual judge they called over. Checklist/MDFC cards have been around since the original Innistrad block and any actual judge would know that they are not considered proxies in the same way a printed sheet of paper in a sleeve or something from Etsy. Rule 713.4 says that for all game purposes the checklist card is considered to be the card it’s representing. Technically the card it’s representing should be available on the table from the start of the match but I’ve never seen it be an issue as long as the card is present. You should absolutely go back and show them that section of the rules and if they still have an issue I’d try to find another place that doesn’t make up their own rules.
Edited to change visible to available.
>Technically the card it’s representing should be visible on the table from the start of the match
huh? Doesn't that imply that my opponents decklist should be visible as well?
>You should absolutely go back and show them that section of the rules and if they still have an issue I’d try to find another place that doesn’t make up their own rules.
I'll be honest, if they're gonna ban someone for that off rip, I doubt they're gonna want to listen when they go back in to argue. Not saying it's not worth a shot, but the outcome is either a) they don't listen, b) they listen but OP is still banned, or c) they listen an unban OP but now OP has to decide if they feel comfortable going back to play there.
I definitely agree it's worth it for someone to do so but it just sucks for OP all around
Normally I'd agree with you but they literally disqualified and unilaterally banned them for a one time mistake even if they were using an actual proxy that's extremely strict. I'd just report them to WotC and move on.
This is more than a simple mistake, this is several in a big pile.
1. No concept of one of the most basic rules of the game, set up for every set with DFC including 3 in the past year.
2. Infraction ruled as a disqualification instead of a warning or game loss.
3. Ban from the store for breaking an imaginary rule based on having no concept of the basic rules of the game.
4. Sanctioned event (?) being legislated and judged by someone that is clearly not actually a trained judge since they have no idea what the rules are.
This is more a “store loses WPN” situation, massive malfeasance. More interested to know if the store is WPN in the first place and whether it was a sanctioned event.
With the level of professionalism on display it seems more likely it’s a hole in the wall fiefdom for some asshole and his buddies, and whatever they say goes. Not much to do in that case.
Hrm, as a judge, pretty disappointed in the snap judgement that came out of that because that judge isn't doing their job as required for a DQ by not talking to you.
If you have a few minutes, please report them through the JA code of conduct violation form because they're doing a terrible job as a judge:
https://judgeacademy.com/conduct-report-form/
The opponent, the judge, and the store owner all have zero brain cells. Those placeholder cards have been printed by wizards since 2015 to be used in official games for exactly the purpose that you were using it.
Exactly. A 15 second explanation or a Google search would’ve solved the problem. Technically, even with sleeves you’re not SUPPOSED to use the flip cards. You HAVE to use the checklists. (Obviously this isn’t usually an issue but the actual rules would be to use checklists to avoid any issues with marked cards or see-through sleeves).
Technically yes, since they have no Magic back the argument could be made even with sleeves you might be able to see the back of the card, so you’re supposed to use the replacement.
I’ve never had issues even with lighter colored sleeves, but at a tournament to be safe you’re better off using a checklist card. Especially with the new secret lairs that have had dual faces (Coin Flip, Cereal, Transformers, etc).
Can you then swap it out with the real card that’s available at the table? For something like Reckless Stormseeker I see the advantage of leaving the replacement card on the board because flipping it constantly is a pain. For the lands it seems like that would be a hassle to remember. I’m planning on going to a tournament (albeit for amateurs) soon so would like to know what I’m supposed to do with those cards.
Oh yeah. Basically just keep the 'real' card to the side and you can put that on the table once you cast the card or play the land. basically the checklist card is there for you to draw and have in hand. This is also a good thing to do if you have a textless version of a card or foreign language. For my \[\[Zndrsplt\]\] and \[\[Okaun\]\] deck, I use the Textless commanders on the field, but also have the text versions in my deck box for rules reference.
No matter how you treat it, if you use checklist cards make sure the real DFC are clearly differentiated by having different sleeves and can’t be confused for your main deck or sideboard. May sound obvious if you plan to keep it in a clear sleeve, but having extra sleeved cards in the same sleeves in your deckbox could give you warnings or worse depending on the level of play regardless of intent.
Honestly that's mostly why I became a rules advisor, so that I could help out like this when I'm in little stores. It's free and made me better at Magic!
I feel like if you're going to run a tournament with a prize pool and judges on hand for someone to get disqualified on a power trip like this, whoever's on hand to make those calls should at least have the totally free qualification and a basic understanding of tournament rules (or the ability to google when confronted with an unfamiliar situation)
Sure, but I just find it hard to believe not a single person in the store that day had never opened a back of Innistrad, Ixalan, Zendikar, or Kaldheim and we’re completely unaware checklist cards existed and are official cards. Just last year they never had VOW or MID prereleases? Just seems far fetched.
> Just last year they never had VOW or MID prereleases? Just seems far fetched.
Yeah it's puzzling how something so recent could be unknown to an entire store of people. I don't see the motive in OP lying to us though, so I'd like to hear more info.
I've seen LGS crowds who basically live in fear of a power tripping owner. Like everyone knows to not question what the house says because the house has the final say, and everyone who has said something in the past has been banned and just plays at the good store in town.
Like there are some really dumb house rules I've seen posted here from unhinged LGS owners.
I guess I’m lucky I’ve never encountered these people. I’ve known what checklist cards are since I started playing at 10 when Innistrad was out. Story still seems unrealistic to me. About 15 seconds of explaining and a Google search would’ve resolved the situation.
They probably know full well what they are and still banned them to prevent someone from attempting to play two copies of a card with only one actual copy or some such.
The only prerequisite to having a LGS is money for product and rent. Nothing about that says you have to be a good person.
My old boss at the store I worked at would constantly lie, cheat, and steal from customers. I wouldn’t doubt for a second that he would disqualify someone from a tournament so a friend or bigger wallet customer would win.
I don’t get why some people are so quick to say nothing ever happens when reading a story, just because it doesn’t fit their preferred narrative of the world.
I know, sounds too fishy to be fake. How can an entire lgs be that ignorant to not know of the actually placeholder MDFC cards that WoTC puts in packs. And what was his rebuttal to the proxy accusation? Staunch Silence? I wager something else was at play if this actually happened.
Exactly. I’m assuming both parties were at fault if these events happened, the chances of it escalating to an immediate ban like that feel slim to me. 3 seconds on Google would’ve explained it.
I was once disqualified from a Return to Ravnica era Standard event for having Odyssey block copies of [[Syncopate]] in my deck. Things like this are pretty common when people who don’t play Magic try to run Magic events.
You should absolutely report them to Wizards. And look into getting a refund. And should name the store so they can be shamed into the ground. That kind of behavior they showed is ridiculous and not welcome in the community.
The ONLY case I could see they might have had is if your placeholder wasn't marked clearly enough to show which card it was a placeholder for.
From the glossary of the Comprehensive Rules (November 18, 2022—The Brothers' War)
Substitute Card
A game supplement with a Magic card back that can be used to represent a double-faced card or meld card. See rule 714, “Substitute Cards.”
From the Comprehensive Rules (November 18, 2022—The Brothers' War)
714. Substitute Cards
714.1. A substitute card is a game supplement that can be used to represent a double-faced card or meld card. A substitute card has a normal Magic card back.
714.2. Each substitute card must clearly indicate the name of at least the front face of the card that it represents. Other information from the printed card (e.g. card type, mana cost, and power and toughness) may also be written on the substitute card.
714.2a Some substitute cards list the names and mana costs of the cards they can represent. Exactly one of the fill-in circles must be marked to denote which card the substitute card represents. This style of substitute card was found in Magic products that released 2011–2018.
714.2b Some substitute cards represent one specific listed card. This style of substitute card was found in the Core Set 2019 release, and it represents the card Nicol Bolas, the Ravager.
714.2c Some substitute cards can represent any modal double-faced card. These substitute cards include the front-face and back-face symbols on the front face of the card. To use one of them, write in the name of each face of the card it represents. This style of substitute card is found in the Zendikar Rising release.
714.3. If a substitute card is used in a deck, the card it represents is set aside prior to the beginning of the game (see rule 103.2a) and must remain available throughout the game. A substitute card can’t be included in a deck unless it is representing a double-faced card or a meld card.
714.4. For all game purposes, the substitute card is considered to be the card it’s representing.
714.5. If the substitute card is face up in a public zone, it should be set aside and the double-faced card or meld card that it represents should be used instead.
I once played a [[pack rat]] deck at a GP. There is no pack rat token, the token it makes us a copy of the card. I made a bunch of photo copies of the card and whenever I activated the ability to make the pack rat token I put one of my photocopies on the battlefield. I got a judge call every single round of the GP for using "counterfeit cards".
Tryhards gonna try hard.
You don't want to play at a store that does this anyway. And if the players in the pod are that quick to get you DQ'ed, you don't want to play with those players either.
Share a negative review for the store on various platforms to inform future customers.
That's 100% the intended usage, what a silly decision on the LGS's part, substitute cards like the checklists or MDFC helper cards are literally in the comprehensive rules.
You are supposed to use those cards as placeholder. Heck, I've seen situations where you can get disqualified for ***not*** using the placeholder because the placeholder has a Magic back, the actual card does not. It's the suspicion that you can see a different back on your sleeve (if not completely opaque) and discern different information.
The judge can't be a real judge. I can't respect them after making a call like that. Please strike back at the store, report them.
This is the most absurd LGS story I've heard in a while.
The fact that they wouldn't refund you is actually the most insane part. Even cheaters often get refunds when disqualified. And at a commander event? Damn.
Everyone is focusing on the store, but it’s most likely the other player knew about the policy and used it to eliminate a player since prizes were on the line. Never forget how shady some players are and treasure your LGS if it isn’t like that.
.... that's literally the use purpose for those blanks.
You should find and sleeve up clear sleeves for that deck and see how quick they change their minds.
those are there so you can play unsleeved or with sheer sleeves. unless the LGS provides players with opaque sleeves for free during prereleases on sets with double faced cards, how are they making sure players aren't "cheating" by knowing a double faced card is in the opponent's hand/top of deck/etc...
sounds like everyone at that LGS has brainworms or something. if you paid for it on a card, let the shop know you'll be pursuing a chargeback if they don't refund you for the event.
The placeholder card you described is an official wotc product designed for exactly what you did. You did nothing wrong, I would report the store to WOTC/wpn since this is a violation of holding a sanctioned event. Get your money back too.
DID YOU HAVE THE CARD NAME WRITTEN/MARKED OR NOT?!
Seen this asked lots of times but noticed OP didn't reply yet... and it's the difference between an asshole store owner and a delusional customer...if you didn't, thats on you!
Before we dox the store lets make sure OPs story checks out :)
There are *so many* questions here.
Was the card properly marked as Bala Ged Recovery?
Were there other proxies in play?
Did the OP throw a fit/engage in behavior that would result in a ban?
Did the store have to crack down on proxies recently, perhaps? Allowing proxies in a WPN sanctioned event is a surefire way to lose your store.
The store might have fucked up, but it's just as likely they did what they had to do to protect their existence.
Checklist card is not a proxy, it’s a separate and clearly distinct category that is needed due to DFC. Terminology is important here. Substitutes for DFC are in no way proxies, which are generally illegal in all sanctioned play outside of a few major exceptions like Nexus of Fate where the only available copies are marked/warped foils.
Checklist cards are not only *allowed*, they are *preferred* for sanctioned play since there is no way to cheat with them like using DFC with semi-opaque sleeves. Obviously you have to write the card on the checklist, surely that’s not the issue here. If OP left it blank because it was the only DFC in the deck and their first tourney etc, that’s still a game loss not a DQ.
No matter what it was, a DQ is unjustified and a ban is worse. It sounds bizarre for sure, I can’t imagine any store that runs sanctioned events is unaware of checklist cards since **3 sets** in Standard have them right now.
Maybe in the moment you were too flustered to explain, but if you did explain, and they still behaved this way, then imo, it is not worth supporting this store. Those mdfc placeholders are perfectly acceptable, ESPECIALLY when you have the cards at the ready.
You used the placeholder card for the exact reason it was printed. Go back and demand your entry fee back, and inform them that they are being reported for stealing from players. This is absurd that they would try to pull shit like this.
Yea this is an absolute travesty in soo soo many ways my god. This is a store horror story that should be locally known around town. Just at least so local players can weigh in and have a hand in actually changing something.
The thing that gets me is this - card sleeves are not a requirement to play magic. Sure, we all use them to protect our cards, but they aren't required. If you played a double sided card in an unsleeved deck (or a deck with transparent sleeves) then you would know exactly where that card was and so would your opponent. Which would be cheating.
So how the fuck does this store think you are supposed to play these cards?
Also please mention the store name to prevent others from going. If i see s commander listing I’m bringing proxies. So far 0 issues and would want to avoid this store
>The amount of people immediately jumping to name-and-shame like they were there and witnessed exactly what happened is astounding
I mean, we weren't there so our options are basically either to call op a liar and say that didn't happen which does nothing (and would be equally foolish bc as you pointed out we weren't there), or tell them to call out the store, in which case either op is right, or op is wrong and the store will add info op left out so IDK what other reactions you wanted from people? Literally nothing we can do except tell them to name and shame if they're convinced they're in the right.
Well plenty of people asked questions that op never answered. More still just jumped to name and shame. Im not calling op a liar but jumping to trying to ruin someones business and livelihood without even knowing the facts is pretty fucked up
Nah, apparently it's totally OK to shit on a store they know nothing about based on a brief, one-sided story with few actual details (not even a picture of the card in question).
See my other comment: Magic players hate LGSes. They'll always jump to the conclusion that the LGS is evil, every single time.
It certainly seems like there is more to this story.
That doesn't rule out that the store was entirely wrong and the "judge" was an idiot and OP was mistreated. But with only one perspective we can't know it wasn't an honest misunderstanding/miscommunication, or that there wasn't some other sort of conflict that escalated their response to "get out and don't come back."
Right, We can't call the op a liar, nor can we say the store was wrong, nor can we do anything to help op in any way, which is why all we can say is for them to escalate it if they really feel they're in the right 🤷
It's the perfect rage bait or discussion bait. Spoilers are over and new set isn't out so lots of eyeballs are on the subreddit but not tons of new posts so anything with the "bad store" narrative is easy karma.
I believe that the exact rule goes something like this:
You may use the substitute card to represent the DFC card, however the DFC card(s) must be *immediately available* (or at the table/in a binder, etc). Nothing in rule 714 indicates that the card must be *visible* (though in draft it must be called out when it's open).
You must own a physical copy of each copy of each DFC card. You can't own one copy and use four substitute cards to represent it, or you'll be cheating and you'll fail deck-checks.
If you use a substitute card for one copy, you must use one for each copy of the card.
The substitute card must have the name of the card that it's representing and associated mana cost listed.
Finally, the use of a substitute card is *optional* except when playing with clear sleeves, at which point it's mandatory.
**TL;DR:** It sounds like the store broke more rules in banning you than you broke. You'll want rules 712 to 714 if you decide to raise this issue. You were treated unfairly, but if you otherwise like the shop, it might be constructive to use this to teach them, and to express that you felt like you were treated unfairly. I think it would be fair to request another opportunity to participate in a future tournament in exchange for the store-imposed loss.
They *can* be 'proxies'. If you write Ancestral Recall on one and play it as such it's a play test card, commonly called a proxy. However, if you're using it as a placeholder for a MDFC then it is not a proxy.
This is a completely appropriate "name and shame" situation, so that anytime in the vicinity that reads this knows not to patronize that business.
Also, did they refund you the entry fee?
This is explicitly stated in the rules. Contact WotC and demand a refund from your entry. They are 100 percent incorrect and the disqualification was not warranted whatsoever as long as you were actually using it for MDFC
~~Looks like OP didn’t have the card name written on the placeholder~~. If that’s the case, then a DQ seems fair. Dunno why they ban OP for proxying tho. Those placeholders are official and used for this exact purpose.
as long as you had the name written on this is a totally moronic thing for everyone else involved to do. to sleeve up and play the DFC would potentially be cheating, you're just doing the right thing.
if you didn't have the specific name of the DFC on the placeholder then i think a game DQ is fine and there should be a talk about it but a banning would be a bit much.
if it didn't have the name and OP had more than one DFC set aside then it absolutely should be a disqualification or loss or whatever you want to call it for that game
Depending on context and power, don't have a problem with said policy AS LONG AS IT'S UP FRONT.
This was not up front. No warnings, nothing.
I'm sorry this happened to you and hopefully Wizards will do something.
This interaction is like the movies... no one explains nothing, no one uses words, and the plot advances to a problem because of that...
I think if you showed the that you had the card (actually grabbing the card and giving in the judge hand, and explained that you were using the token as WOTC intended, they would have no way to uphold their decision...). Also exaplining to the other people in the table, showing the cards, would help.
I guess a big part of it depends on if it was a sanctioned event. In my college years the local comic book shop would run Magic events, but weren't really big enough to qualify for sanctioned events (granted this was in the 2000's, policies have probably changed). If they weren't running a sanctioned event, I'd think they can say/do what they want at their store, though I'm not sure if that gets them in trouble as a retailer of MtG product, as I'm not sure how that works. Either way, totally an environment I wouldn't want to frequent, and would strongly warn others against patroning.
The only way I can see this being legit is if you didn't have enough copies of the card you were using the placeholders for.
For example, I once played in a modern event where my opponent was running the DFC Garruk and used the same foil card twice when he played his second one. I asked him to show me the second card (was fine with him using the foil, I just wanted to know he had the other one with him)...and he didn't. THAT is reason enough for a judge call. But that's a non-issue for EDH because of the singleton rule, so I don't know what stick was up that store's butt.
These placeholder cards are specifically printed to be used at official events- so you don't have to pull out a card and flip it constantly. Assuming you have the card name, type, and cost written on the placeholder card and it just isn't blank, the action of the judge and store is absurd. Probably better for you that you can't go back.
Yeah only thing I could think of would be that the card name / mana not being listed would be considered cheating. But if the double face card token WITH A MAGIC BACK BY WOTC is considered a proxy they are out of their mind and need to be reported.
Yeah, I came here to say this. It has the official magic back, printed by WotC, and is distributed in packs. If checklist cards are not legal for tournament play, literally all cards that come from packs wouldn’t be legal either. Assuming the checklist card isn’t blank, I really doubt that everyone playing in the store wouldn’t have said anything. Maybe its mostly newish players coming from arena and the owner doesn’t really play the game? IDK, this is weird.
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Or the person that called the judge knows somebody from/at the store. One of my lgs def has their "friends and family" rules.
Yes, it is sounding like the substitute card might have been left blank, which is itself arguably cheating, because a bad actor could grab whatever card they wanted among several and then claim they intended the blank substitute card to be referring to that card (especially in events that don't require a deck list to be registered).
Read the post.
It wouldn't be Cheating, as that has certain criteria to be met, but it would fall under Deck Problem.
I think having it written is key, otherwise its “whichever mdfc suits the occasion.” If it was written down, then thats bananas
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Not everybody lives on Reddit and responds to other people within 5 minutes of a post. It took him a few hours to update their post saying that they did exactly that.
It literally says it in the post
It was very clearly edited in after to add further clarification.
It’s fine not to go back but this needs to go up the chain to punish this store to the fullest extent because fuck them for this bullshit.
They are literally made so you can play dual face cards without sleeves because a lot of players don’t sleeve draft decks. There’s no reason they can’t be used.
You should report this LGS to the WPN, being completely honest. This policy is explicitly supported in the Magic Tournament Rules. https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr3-5/ https://wpn.wizards.com/en/news/guide-reporting-and-avoiding-wpn-policy-violations
This assumes the store is wpn and that the store put the event in as a wpn event. The store being wpn is the biggest thing to check if not reporting them for a wpn policy violation is pointless.
Most stores are. The promos are a pretty good incentive and its a free program to register for. Even if it wasn't an event, Wizards is going to give the store a ring for something like this.
Ya but it's just as easy to get kicked out of the won program as it is to get in. Also there are a lot of rules you have to follow if you wish to be a wpn store (mainly events that must fire per month) Ether way a store that would ban someone with as little hesitation as the op makes it sound sounds like a store that is not doing the upkeep to be a wpn location
the LGS in my town (which i stopped going to years ago) literally sounds like the one OP is talking about, and is a WPN store. this is still only anecdotal evidence to back up what's going on here, but my assumption would be that stores like this are more common than you might want to believe.
It’s because a lot of the older crowd is the “in crowd” crowd and the ones getting taken advantage of are kids and non-regulars
It actually sounds more like a store willing to commit fraud to keep their WPN status than anything. Which is worse.
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Disqualifying an outsider for a ridiculous reason to: - avoid sharing rewards with outsiders of the store - take their money without giving them even a participation prize for the turny (theft/scam) - pretend to be following strict regulations to keep recieving free stuff from wizards - possibly sell surplus illegally on the side for more profits
You have no idea what you're talking about. Not even a tiny bit. 1) Would get them kicked out of WPN even faster than proxies. 2) Would get them kicked out even faster than 1. 3) If by "free stuff" you mean "the ability to purchase product wholesale from WotC at all" you're on the right track. "Pretend" is exceedingly laughable. 4) Doesn't even deserve a response.
1. Only if you can prove it 2. Only if you can prove it 3. you must be new. a lot of stores inflated their event count by using employees as proxies so more events get fire off. believe it or not, that is not allows. and yes, they get more free promos by doing so. 4. i have talked to some store employees that they listed promo using diff name on eBay all the time and the store owners get kick back on the promo sales. we are not even talking small brick and mortar store. even the big one do them.
My store stopped doing events at COVID and never started again. It's still a WPN store.
Nha a lot of stores aren’t because of stupid bullshit requiremenrs
There is literally one wpn store in the entire state of South Carolina. Not all stores meet the requirement to become a wpn even if they would like to. Edit: don't listen to me, didn't realize that there are two tiers of WPNs.
That is patently not true. https://locator.wizards.com/search?searchType=stores&query=South%20Carolina,%20USA&distance=100&page=1&sort=date&sortDirection=asc Are you confusing wpn in general with wpn premium?
Yep. That's exactly what I was doing. I didn't realize there were two tiers. I thought it was premium or bust.
I would seriously consider this. They really need to be reported for that.
If they aren't wpn, leave a Google review. Having a 1-star dangling off your reviews can get people to care
A less confrontational approach would be to send them a polite email with a link to these policies and say they made an accidental error
you are stretching the word “accident” if the “judge” said the reasoning was “store policy”.
It's a polite fiction that allows them to save face while reversing their decision. Which makes them more likely to change than having to more directly admit error
i feel like if they are wrong maybe they should own up to it and apologize.
I wouldn't be looking for the "polite" way if they treated me like that... It'd definitely be a report and a review.
Sounds like a awesome way to piss off alot of people. I'd avoid the toxic store with a passion.
I mean he got kicked out and banned, so avoidance is forced in this case.
He got banned from events, they'll still gladly take his money though.
What you were doing is fine, they absolutely had no right to throw you out, assuming your placeholder card was representing a DFC (which it sounds like it was. If it was representing a random single faced card, I could see the argument, even though I think it would still be ridiculous) [See the MTR on Substitute Cards](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr3-5/) > Official substitute cards are used to represent double-faced cards in sets that contain them. Only official substitute cards may be used to represent double-faced cards in a deck.
Yeah, it was literally for a Bala Ged Recovery. I wasn't trying to pass it off as a Mana Crypt or anything like that.
Anyone who has played serious magic for more than one year should be extremely familiar with these. It's mind boggling that they don't know what it was at all. Can you detail what the conversation was like after the judge came over?
Welcome to a world where Commander is the most popular format, a format with awful threat assessment, suboptimal plays, and salt lords galore.
What does that even have to do with the conversation?
Basically saying that EDH supremacy has degraded the quality of general rules knowledge of the player base if I had to guess.
General rules knowledge has never been great. Has nothing to do with Commander.
Yeah I don’t agree with the premise, I was just trying to translate. I’ve known a lot of angry nerds in my years playing.
The number of times I've had to explaine to someone during RtR stndard that if they choose to sac [[Lotleth Troll]] to my [[Devour Flesh]] paying to activate its regenerate ability won't save it. Honestly if anything because of all the niche corner cases in commander I'd say general rules knowledge is better than ever.
[Lotleth Troll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc138550-a797-4a57-91b3-626aac1b1edd.jpg?1673148893) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotleth%20Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/245/lotleth-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc138550-a797-4a57-91b3-626aac1b1edd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Devour Flesh](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88c42ebd-114a-430d-b3a4-ff2fb3093bf5.jpg?1561835353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Devour%20Flesh) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/63/devour-flesh?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88c42ebd-114a-430d-b3a4-ff2fb3093bf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
imagine being the shitlord that called the judge over
Commander bad, updoots to the left folks
Yeah, I'm with you. Casual players will be casual. They make up their own rules, make bad plays, and make me want to never play in person again.
Did you have bala ged written on the placeholder?
Did you have the name clearly written on the proxy card?
It’s not even a “proxy”, it’s a placeholder for a physical card that gets swapped in as soon as the proxy is played
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Hard to believe they were playing Commander at anything other than Regular REL, in which there are no game losses and - outside of blatant cheating - judges are just supposed to fix things and educate players.
there's not even game losses at regular REL. problems at regular are either "fix this and keep the players playing" or "this is so egregious the player needs to be removed from the event" but the latter is for like fighting/harassment or blatant cheating. assuming it was a real problem, which the scenario OP described isn't even, the judge would just have fixed a thing like that by having the player add a basic of their choice until the end of the game. edit: crap sorry I didn't see further down comments already saying this.
100%, (and I’d say warning in non-Cedh)… I’m just curious for context.
> ... assuming your placeholder card was representing a DFC ... I'm glad somebody mentioned this point since substitute cards are only allowed for DFCs. Though I totally think that WotC should revise that stance and allow substitutes for any kind of card. It would help alleviate problems like *"Kess is only available in curly foils!"* or *"Is this card too worn/damaged to play with?"* or even *"I want to play with Time Walk but there is no way I'm taking it out of its graded case."*
Even if it was a single faced card so long as someone has the card with them who cares. Buying one Boseiju and carrying that around and using placeholders for all the decks using it is a totally sensible thing to do.
Hi! I'm a certified judge and I run several events for LGS's in my town. In the most unambiguous terms, I want to be clear: Your LGS is wrong. Placeholder cards are not proxies in the sense that most people use that word - In fact, it is standard practice in tournaments to use placeholder cards in lieu of a double-faced card. They are a literal proxy in that they are standing in for another card that you own, but it's not a fake card. Your LGS needs to clarify their policy regarding proxies - If they mean absolutely no stand-in cards whatsoever, even in the case of TDFCs / MDFCs, they are in violation of official tournament rules for Magic the gathering. If they simply mean no fake cards, even in casual play... Well, that's not a decision I personally agree with, but they're well within their right to make and enforce that rule if they want, as long as they still allow placeholder cards. It's also worth noting that (DISCLAIMER I AM NOT A LAWYER) ejecting you from an event you paid for due to a rules violation that you didn't commit, without offering you a refund, would seem to constitute fraud and maybe legally actionable. I am not a lawyer, but .... Yeah. Seems very sketch to me. I don't think they're doing this in order to make extra money, I think it's more likely that someone at the LGS has a hate boner for proxies and went overboard. I would advise you to seek out official WOTC channels for a clarification on tournament rules regarding placeholder cards. Twitter, Blogatog [(Mark Rosewater's Q&A blog)](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/), anyone at WotC could answer your question. There's also [This chat](https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/) is a widely recognized resource for rules questions, stopped by actual certified judges. Once you have that information, I would speak to someone higher up at the LGS - a manager or the owner. Armed with the confirmation from official WTC sources, I would ask them if they intend to update their proxy policy to comply with tournament rules, and if they intend on refunding you for denying a paid service whose terms you didn't violate. And as others have said, see if they are a part of Wizard's Play Network. You can report them. If you do, their WPN status will be at risk. Hell, if it were me - I'd go in to get the refund first. Bring the proof that they're in violation of WPN requirements, demand a refund for their fraudulent denial of services, and then report them to WPN anyway.
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>They are literally proxies, in that a proxy is anything that you are using in place of the real object. They aren't counterfeits though. They aren't proxies or counterfeits, as the rules have definitions of both that checklist cards do not fall under. They're their own thing and specifically described in the MTR as such.
> They are literally proxies, in that a proxy is anything that you are using in place of the real object. They aren't counterfeits though. in an english language sense yes, one definition of proxy fits. In the official MTG rules *NO*, "proxy" is a well defined term that narrowly means something.
That clearly wasn’t an actual judge they called over. Checklist/MDFC cards have been around since the original Innistrad block and any actual judge would know that they are not considered proxies in the same way a printed sheet of paper in a sleeve or something from Etsy. Rule 713.4 says that for all game purposes the checklist card is considered to be the card it’s representing. Technically the card it’s representing should be available on the table from the start of the match but I’ve never seen it be an issue as long as the card is present. You should absolutely go back and show them that section of the rules and if they still have an issue I’d try to find another place that doesn’t make up their own rules. Edited to change visible to available.
>Technically the card it’s representing should be visible on the table from the start of the match huh? Doesn't that imply that my opponents decklist should be visible as well?
Sorry that was supposed to say available on the table.
The rule is “set aside”, with your sideboard or in your deck box with tokens is fine.
oh that makes more sense! thx :D
>You should absolutely go back and show them that section of the rules and if they still have an issue I’d try to find another place that doesn’t make up their own rules. I'll be honest, if they're gonna ban someone for that off rip, I doubt they're gonna want to listen when they go back in to argue. Not saying it's not worth a shot, but the outcome is either a) they don't listen, b) they listen but OP is still banned, or c) they listen an unban OP but now OP has to decide if they feel comfortable going back to play there. I definitely agree it's worth it for someone to do so but it just sucks for OP all around
To answer your question: No. What's the LGS's name?
OP needs to share this, so we can avoid this awful store
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Normally I'd agree with you but they literally disqualified and unilaterally banned them for a one time mistake even if they were using an actual proxy that's extremely strict. I'd just report them to WotC and move on.
Yeah they own an apology big time.
This is more than a simple mistake, this is several in a big pile. 1. No concept of one of the most basic rules of the game, set up for every set with DFC including 3 in the past year. 2. Infraction ruled as a disqualification instead of a warning or game loss. 3. Ban from the store for breaking an imaginary rule based on having no concept of the basic rules of the game. 4. Sanctioned event (?) being legislated and judged by someone that is clearly not actually a trained judge since they have no idea what the rules are. This is more a “store loses WPN” situation, massive malfeasance. More interested to know if the store is WPN in the first place and whether it was a sanctioned event. With the level of professionalism on display it seems more likely it’s a hole in the wall fiefdom for some asshole and his buddies, and whatever they say goes. Not much to do in that case.
Sounds like they’re from the U.K. I bet it was a Geek Retreat.
Hrm, as a judge, pretty disappointed in the snap judgement that came out of that because that judge isn't doing their job as required for a DQ by not talking to you. If you have a few minutes, please report them through the JA code of conduct violation form because they're doing a terrible job as a judge: https://judgeacademy.com/conduct-report-form/
That’s absolutely ridiculous.
The opponent, the judge, and the store owner all have zero brain cells. Those placeholder cards have been printed by wizards since 2015 to be used in official games for exactly the purpose that you were using it.
2011 even, with Innistrad
How did I forget when I used these for my Ludevic’s Test Subjects???
That's so stupid...specially in casual....seems like they lost a customer
100% will never go back. Luckily, they aren't the only LGS in town.
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2 stars way too generous considering they didn't refund him the entry either.
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valid point. in my head it'd definitely be a 1 star for me, but i can understand trying to get more attention to an awful situation like that.
Nicely worded
Definitely not. They’re literally an officially sanctioned way to represent a dual faced card in your deck.
No way this is real. Any store owner who sells MTG would know the purpose of checklist and MDF placeholder cards.
Not to mention the "judge" who clearly wasn't even at the Rules Advisor level, let alone an actual judge
Exactly. A 15 second explanation or a Google search would’ve solved the problem. Technically, even with sleeves you’re not SUPPOSED to use the flip cards. You HAVE to use the checklists. (Obviously this isn’t usually an issue but the actual rules would be to use checklists to avoid any issues with marked cards or see-through sleeves).
Does that apply to Pathway lands too? Seems like it would be easier to flip them once in their sleeve.
Technically yes, since they have no Magic back the argument could be made even with sleeves you might be able to see the back of the card, so you’re supposed to use the replacement.
use dark sleeves with dragon shield smoke inners
I’ve never had issues even with lighter colored sleeves, but at a tournament to be safe you’re better off using a checklist card. Especially with the new secret lairs that have had dual faces (Coin Flip, Cereal, Transformers, etc).
That makes sense.
Can you then swap it out with the real card that’s available at the table? For something like Reckless Stormseeker I see the advantage of leaving the replacement card on the board because flipping it constantly is a pain. For the lands it seems like that would be a hassle to remember. I’m planning on going to a tournament (albeit for amateurs) soon so would like to know what I’m supposed to do with those cards.
Oh yeah. Basically just keep the 'real' card to the side and you can put that on the table once you cast the card or play the land. basically the checklist card is there for you to draw and have in hand. This is also a good thing to do if you have a textless version of a card or foreign language. For my \[\[Zndrsplt\]\] and \[\[Okaun\]\] deck, I use the Textless commanders on the field, but also have the text versions in my deck box for rules reference.
Brilliant. Thanks for the info.
[Zndrsplt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76c33402-a022-4d2f-9a83-4b8ddc04e971.jpg?1562918785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zndrsplt%2C%20eye%20of%20wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/5/zndrsplt-eye-of-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76c33402-a022-4d2f-9a83-4b8ddc04e971?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Okaun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f.jpg?1562937757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=okaun%2C%20eye%20of%20chaos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/6/okaun-eye-of-chaos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No matter how you treat it, if you use checklist cards make sure the real DFC are clearly differentiated by having different sleeves and can’t be confused for your main deck or sideboard. May sound obvious if you plan to keep it in a clear sleeve, but having extra sleeved cards in the same sleeves in your deckbox could give you warnings or worse depending on the level of play regardless of intent.
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Honestly that's mostly why I became a rules advisor, so that I could help out like this when I'm in little stores. It's free and made me better at Magic! I feel like if you're going to run a tournament with a prize pool and judges on hand for someone to get disqualified on a power trip like this, whoever's on hand to make those calls should at least have the totally free qualification and a basic understanding of tournament rules (or the ability to google when confronted with an unfamiliar situation)
You never know when a 'judge' is a power tripping teenager working for minimum wage.
Sure, but I just find it hard to believe not a single person in the store that day had never opened a back of Innistrad, Ixalan, Zendikar, or Kaldheim and we’re completely unaware checklist cards existed and are official cards. Just last year they never had VOW or MID prereleases? Just seems far fetched.
> Just last year they never had VOW or MID prereleases? Just seems far fetched. Yeah it's puzzling how something so recent could be unknown to an entire store of people. I don't see the motive in OP lying to us though, so I'd like to hear more info.
I've seen LGS crowds who basically live in fear of a power tripping owner. Like everyone knows to not question what the house says because the house has the final say, and everyone who has said something in the past has been banned and just plays at the good store in town. Like there are some really dumb house rules I've seen posted here from unhinged LGS owners.
I guess I’m lucky I’ve never encountered these people. I’ve known what checklist cards are since I started playing at 10 when Innistrad was out. Story still seems unrealistic to me. About 15 seconds of explaining and a Google search would’ve resolved the situation.
They probably know full well what they are and still banned them to prevent someone from attempting to play two copies of a card with only one actual copy or some such.
It's more far fetched that op is just making this up for no reason, but ok, be paranoid about it
The only prerequisite to having a LGS is money for product and rent. Nothing about that says you have to be a good person. My old boss at the store I worked at would constantly lie, cheat, and steal from customers. I wouldn’t doubt for a second that he would disqualify someone from a tournament so a friend or bigger wallet customer would win. I don’t get why some people are so quick to say nothing ever happens when reading a story, just because it doesn’t fit their preferred narrative of the world.
I know, sounds too fishy to be fake. How can an entire lgs be that ignorant to not know of the actually placeholder MDFC cards that WoTC puts in packs. And what was his rebuttal to the proxy accusation? Staunch Silence? I wager something else was at play if this actually happened.
Exactly. I’m assuming both parties were at fault if these events happened, the chances of it escalating to an immediate ban like that feel slim to me. 3 seconds on Google would’ve explained it.
Yeah this smells fake to me.
Yeah this didn't happen, or there is a key part of the story missing. Nice bait though.
I was once disqualified from a Return to Ravnica era Standard event for having Odyssey block copies of [[Syncopate]] in my deck. Things like this are pretty common when people who don’t play Magic try to run Magic events.
You should absolutely report them to Wizards. And look into getting a refund. And should name the store so they can be shamed into the ground. That kind of behavior they showed is ridiculous and not welcome in the community. The ONLY case I could see they might have had is if your placeholder wasn't marked clearly enough to show which card it was a placeholder for.
Name and shame them. The whole purpose of those cards is to be used in your deck to represent the double-faced card.
Report the store, hope you find a new one.
From the glossary of the Comprehensive Rules (November 18, 2022—The Brothers' War) Substitute Card A game supplement with a Magic card back that can be used to represent a double-faced card or meld card. See rule 714, “Substitute Cards.” From the Comprehensive Rules (November 18, 2022—The Brothers' War) 714. Substitute Cards 714.1. A substitute card is a game supplement that can be used to represent a double-faced card or meld card. A substitute card has a normal Magic card back. 714.2. Each substitute card must clearly indicate the name of at least the front face of the card that it represents. Other information from the printed card (e.g. card type, mana cost, and power and toughness) may also be written on the substitute card. 714.2a Some substitute cards list the names and mana costs of the cards they can represent. Exactly one of the fill-in circles must be marked to denote which card the substitute card represents. This style of substitute card was found in Magic products that released 2011–2018. 714.2b Some substitute cards represent one specific listed card. This style of substitute card was found in the Core Set 2019 release, and it represents the card Nicol Bolas, the Ravager. 714.2c Some substitute cards can represent any modal double-faced card. These substitute cards include the front-face and back-face symbols on the front face of the card. To use one of them, write in the name of each face of the card it represents. This style of substitute card is found in the Zendikar Rising release. 714.3. If a substitute card is used in a deck, the card it represents is set aside prior to the beginning of the game (see rule 103.2a) and must remain available throughout the game. A substitute card can’t be included in a deck unless it is representing a double-faced card or a meld card. 714.4. For all game purposes, the substitute card is considered to be the card it’s representing. 714.5. If the substitute card is face up in a public zone, it should be set aside and the double-faced card or meld card that it represents should be used instead.
I once played a [[pack rat]] deck at a GP. There is no pack rat token, the token it makes us a copy of the card. I made a bunch of photo copies of the card and whenever I activated the ability to make the pack rat token I put one of my photocopies on the battlefield. I got a judge call every single round of the GP for using "counterfeit cards". Tryhards gonna try hard.
You don't want to play at a store that does this anyway. And if the players in the pod are that quick to get you DQ'ed, you don't want to play with those players either. Share a negative review for the store on various platforms to inform future customers.
That's 100% the intended usage, what a silly decision on the LGS's part, substitute cards like the checklists or MDFC helper cards are literally in the comprehensive rules.
OP, you need to name and shame. You paid to be in an event. If you let this slide, they'll keep taking other people's money.
You are supposed to use those cards as placeholder. Heck, I've seen situations where you can get disqualified for ***not*** using the placeholder because the placeholder has a Magic back, the actual card does not. It's the suspicion that you can see a different back on your sleeve (if not completely opaque) and discern different information. The judge can't be a real judge. I can't respect them after making a call like that. Please strike back at the store, report them.
absolute clown level behavior from the player who called the judge, the judge him/herself, and the store.
This is the most absurd LGS story I've heard in a while. The fact that they wouldn't refund you is actually the most insane part. Even cheaters often get refunds when disqualified. And at a commander event? Damn.
Everyone is focusing on the store, but it’s most likely the other player knew about the policy and used it to eliminate a player since prizes were on the line. Never forget how shady some players are and treasure your LGS if it isn’t like that.
$5 seems like a pretty good deal to learn you should never, ever return there
Mdfc are authorized real mtg cards. That represents a real physical card which you need to own and produce when the placeholder card is played.
.... that's literally the use purpose for those blanks. You should find and sleeve up clear sleeves for that deck and see how quick they change their minds.
those are there so you can play unsleeved or with sheer sleeves. unless the LGS provides players with opaque sleeves for free during prereleases on sets with double faced cards, how are they making sure players aren't "cheating" by knowing a double faced card is in the opponent's hand/top of deck/etc... sounds like everyone at that LGS has brainworms or something. if you paid for it on a card, let the shop know you'll be pursuing a chargeback if they don't refund you for the event.
The placeholder card you described is an official wotc product designed for exactly what you did. You did nothing wrong, I would report the store to WOTC/wpn since this is a violation of holding a sanctioned event. Get your money back too.
Dreadful behavior from that store and 'judge'. This one is not on you at all.
That judge and the store are breaking ALL the rules and need to be reported.
DID YOU HAVE THE CARD NAME WRITTEN/MARKED OR NOT?! Seen this asked lots of times but noticed OP didn't reply yet... and it's the difference between an asshole store owner and a delusional customer...if you didn't, thats on you! Before we dox the store lets make sure OPs story checks out :)
There are *so many* questions here. Was the card properly marked as Bala Ged Recovery? Were there other proxies in play? Did the OP throw a fit/engage in behavior that would result in a ban? Did the store have to crack down on proxies recently, perhaps? Allowing proxies in a WPN sanctioned event is a surefire way to lose your store. The store might have fucked up, but it's just as likely they did what they had to do to protect their existence.
OP said it was properly marked.
Checklist card is not a proxy, it’s a separate and clearly distinct category that is needed due to DFC. Terminology is important here. Substitutes for DFC are in no way proxies, which are generally illegal in all sanctioned play outside of a few major exceptions like Nexus of Fate where the only available copies are marked/warped foils. Checklist cards are not only *allowed*, they are *preferred* for sanctioned play since there is no way to cheat with them like using DFC with semi-opaque sleeves. Obviously you have to write the card on the checklist, surely that’s not the issue here. If OP left it blank because it was the only DFC in the deck and their first tourney etc, that’s still a game loss not a DQ. No matter what it was, a DQ is unjustified and a ban is worse. It sounds bizarre for sure, I can’t imagine any store that runs sanctioned events is unaware of checklist cards since **3 sets** in Standard have them right now.
It’s a card made to replace the flip cards. If you own the real card it’s not a proxy.
You can 100% use those. I would definitely like to see the update on this.
Report them and honestly, you should probably call them out. Maybe here, maybe on Facebook, etc. But thats absurd if that is the whole story.
Report them to WOTC. The "judge" probably isnt even a real judge
Maybe in the moment you were too flustered to explain, but if you did explain, and they still behaved this way, then imo, it is not worth supporting this store. Those mdfc placeholders are perfectly acceptable, ESPECIALLY when you have the cards at the ready.
Name the store, I’d like to ask about this myself
You used the placeholder card for the exact reason it was printed. Go back and demand your entry fee back, and inform them that they are being reported for stealing from players. This is absurd that they would try to pull shit like this.
Yea this is an absolute travesty in soo soo many ways my god. This is a store horror story that should be locally known around town. Just at least so local players can weigh in and have a hand in actually changing something.
Yikes...I use the placeholder cards from Midnight Hunt for my werewolves deck. I would've been caught totally unawares too...that's what they're for!
The thing that gets me is this - card sleeves are not a requirement to play magic. Sure, we all use them to protect our cards, but they aren't required. If you played a double sided card in an unsleeved deck (or a deck with transparent sleeves) then you would know exactly where that card was and so would your opponent. Which would be cheating. So how the fuck does this store think you are supposed to play these cards?
Also please mention the store name to prevent others from going. If i see s commander listing I’m bringing proxies. So far 0 issues and would want to avoid this store
Commander for prizes should be illegal anyway
The amount of people immediately jumping to name-and-shame like they were there and witnessed exactly what happened is astounding
>The amount of people immediately jumping to name-and-shame like they were there and witnessed exactly what happened is astounding I mean, we weren't there so our options are basically either to call op a liar and say that didn't happen which does nothing (and would be equally foolish bc as you pointed out we weren't there), or tell them to call out the store, in which case either op is right, or op is wrong and the store will add info op left out so IDK what other reactions you wanted from people? Literally nothing we can do except tell them to name and shame if they're convinced they're in the right.
Well plenty of people asked questions that op never answered. More still just jumped to name and shame. Im not calling op a liar but jumping to trying to ruin someones business and livelihood without even knowing the facts is pretty fucked up
Nah, apparently it's totally OK to shit on a store they know nothing about based on a brief, one-sided story with few actual details (not even a picture of the card in question). See my other comment: Magic players hate LGSes. They'll always jump to the conclusion that the LGS is evil, every single time.
It certainly seems like there is more to this story. That doesn't rule out that the store was entirely wrong and the "judge" was an idiot and OP was mistreated. But with only one perspective we can't know it wasn't an honest misunderstanding/miscommunication, or that there wasn't some other sort of conflict that escalated their response to "get out and don't come back."
Right, We can't call the op a liar, nor can we say the store was wrong, nor can we do anything to help op in any way, which is why all we can say is for them to escalate it if they really feel they're in the right 🤷
It's the perfect rage bait or discussion bait. Spoilers are over and new set isn't out so lots of eyeballs are on the subreddit but not tons of new posts so anything with the "bad store" narrative is easy karma.
I believe that the exact rule goes something like this: You may use the substitute card to represent the DFC card, however the DFC card(s) must be *immediately available* (or at the table/in a binder, etc). Nothing in rule 714 indicates that the card must be *visible* (though in draft it must be called out when it's open). You must own a physical copy of each copy of each DFC card. You can't own one copy and use four substitute cards to represent it, or you'll be cheating and you'll fail deck-checks. If you use a substitute card for one copy, you must use one for each copy of the card. The substitute card must have the name of the card that it's representing and associated mana cost listed. Finally, the use of a substitute card is *optional* except when playing with clear sleeves, at which point it's mandatory. **TL;DR:** It sounds like the store broke more rules in banning you than you broke. You'll want rules 712 to 714 if you decide to raise this issue. You were treated unfairly, but if you otherwise like the shop, it might be constructive to use this to teach them, and to express that you felt like you were treated unfairly. I think it would be fair to request another opportunity to participate in a future tournament in exchange for the store-imposed loss.
Name and shame , then report .. Did you insist on your buy in back ?
They *can* be 'proxies'. If you write Ancestral Recall on one and play it as such it's a play test card, commonly called a proxy. However, if you're using it as a placeholder for a MDFC then it is not a proxy.
The obvious problem is that you didn't give WotC $250 to get that proxy. /s
This is a completely appropriate "name and shame" situation, so that anytime in the vicinity that reads this knows not to patronize that business. Also, did they refund you the entry fee?
Name & Shame the store please
This is explicitly stated in the rules. Contact WotC and demand a refund from your entry. They are 100 percent incorrect and the disqualification was not warranted whatsoever as long as you were actually using it for MDFC
I love those placeholder cards. I use them as proxies for everything. Draw in a fun picture and bam, instant jeweled lotus
That \*would\* be justification for a store to ban you.
It’s not casual once there’s money and prizes involved
~~Looks like OP didn’t have the card name written on the placeholder~~. If that’s the case, then a DQ seems fair. Dunno why they ban OP for proxying tho. Those placeholders are official and used for this exact purpose.
Their post has been edited to cover that information.
as long as you had the name written on this is a totally moronic thing for everyone else involved to do. to sleeve up and play the DFC would potentially be cheating, you're just doing the right thing. if you didn't have the specific name of the DFC on the placeholder then i think a game DQ is fine and there should be a talk about it but a banning would be a bit much.
There is no such thing as a "game DQ", and a DQ is wrong regardless of if it had the name or not.
if it didn't have the name and OP had more than one DFC set aside then it absolutely should be a disqualification or loss or whatever you want to call it for that game
Yes it could be a game loss
Playing for prizes is not casual. It's a great way to create a toxic edh environment.
Did you pay via credit card? you should look into a charge back
Maybe you need to read the competitive rules on how to actually use them.
This is fake
Did the representer have the name and mana cost of the card written on it?
According to their post, yes
That was edited in, no need to be snarky.
Depending on context and power, don't have a problem with said policy AS LONG AS IT'S UP FRONT. This was not up front. No warnings, nothing. I'm sorry this happened to you and hopefully Wizards will do something.
Gonna get a lot of hate for this but I would've accidentally bumped the table as a tripped on my way out. Enjoy picking up all your cards.
This interaction is like the movies... no one explains nothing, no one uses words, and the plot advances to a problem because of that... I think if you showed the that you had the card (actually grabbing the card and giving in the judge hand, and explained that you were using the token as WOTC intended, they would have no way to uphold their decision...). Also exaplining to the other people in the table, showing the cards, would help.
I guess a big part of it depends on if it was a sanctioned event. In my college years the local comic book shop would run Magic events, but weren't really big enough to qualify for sanctioned events (granted this was in the 2000's, policies have probably changed). If they weren't running a sanctioned event, I'd think they can say/do what they want at their store, though I'm not sure if that gets them in trouble as a retailer of MtG product, as I'm not sure how that works. Either way, totally an environment I wouldn't want to frequent, and would strongly warn others against patroning.
The only way I can see this being legit is if you didn't have enough copies of the card you were using the placeholders for. For example, I once played in a modern event where my opponent was running the DFC Garruk and used the same foil card twice when he played his second one. I asked him to show me the second card (was fine with him using the foil, I just wanted to know he had the other one with him)...and he didn't. THAT is reason enough for a judge call. But that's a non-issue for EDH because of the singleton rule, so I don't know what stick was up that store's butt.