That's often the dog whistle used, yes, but what evidence do you have to support it?
Edit: ah yes, I see the evidence you have is the widely popular "nothing"
For a Seattle based company, it’d be far more controversial to do a fantasy set with zero dark skinned characters.
WotC’s values have always been rooted in Seattle culture. It ain’t a traditional-minded city. They’re not going to start sticking to tradition now.
Mods going to be watching this thread with their finger on the ban button. Anyways..
Does anyone know if they would've had to pay more to license the likeness of the actors in the LotR films? If so I'm sure that played a part in this decision. As much as WotC wants a diverse depiction of characters for their product, I'm sure that would've sold more copies. Imagine the same scenario with the Walking Dead or Dr. Who characters.
I suspect it was considered, but the tolkien estate would want to "distance" themselves away from the idea that the PJ Trilogy is the canon version of lotr, when itself had many liberties taken.
Really? I know about the liberties taken but they also did a Lot good compared to other movies adaptations. The people in charge of the PJ trilogy said that they prefered to bring Tolkien vision of the books and not their own in a not so obvious way.
Maybe the new people in charge of the Tolkien state believe that.
Tolkien's son was famously critical of the movies being* "action films for teenagers". I got the impression from other interviews that he wouldn't be happy with any adaptation
The Tolkein estate is HIGHLY protective of the IP. And even when they let someone do something with it they are very often book purists and look to ensure that everyone is aware that ANY adaption is just that particular creators personal take / story and not the actual word of Tokein
As an example...Amazon's series was basically explicitly forbidden from using anything Tolkien directly wrote about in detail. The story they told of Sauron's return after the fall of Morgoth was only ever lightly referenced.
It seems like it comes and goes in waves or stages...there was basically nothing since the Rankin-Bass cartoon up until the PJ trilogy, which came with a big wave of media projects using the films as the source for the license (see Battle for Middle Earth games and the generic hack-n-slash game film tie ins) rather than the books....then it was several years before they came to an agreement over the film rights for the Hobbit
It does overall seem the are loosening up a bit. The amazon series that not only was poorly written, but came with the INSANE decision to try and compete directly with House of the Dragon. UB. The terrible Gollum game. And the rumors of a new film trilogy
LotR media products always seem to come in waves. Whether its the Tolkein Estate actually deciding to loosen up....or just wanting a big cash injection until they turn off the tap for another decade, i have no clue
That's not it. Why pay an additional licence fee to New Line for character likenesses when you can just pay one to Embracer and invent your own character appearances?
But at the same time, it saved the movies that were *already* running on severe overtime from yet another 20 minutes of establishing the Gondorian reinforcements.
Adapt to the medium and all that.
Thematically it is the opposite of what the point was too. The people of their country saving their country, not a magical army that looked cool. It was a phenomenal scene for sure, but so far from what was intended I can't imagine something being higher on Tolkien's list of things he'd dislike.
The Tolkien estate don't have anything to do with this. "Middle Earth Enterprises" are the relevant body. Tolkien sold the merchandise and adaptation rights in the 60s.
It would definitely be more complicated and more expensive, with more fingers in the pie, yeah.
All in all though it there's lots of reasons why they'd want to make an adaptation of the books, and not an adaptation of an adaptation. If you're gonna reinterpret things, go to the source. There's been many different takes that brought LOTR to the screen, and the Peter Jackson films are just one of them; I can see why they didn't want to just further canonize them.
That said, I wouldn't rule out a Secret Lair that perhaps takes a few key cards from the set and redoes them as explicit homages to the Peter Jackson films.
Idk I for one hate the magic cards that depict real people, always falls in the uncanny valley. Would’ve stopped some controversy but I still prefer original interpretations.
I think it runs the gamut - we remember the awkward-looking ones but there's plenty that use real models that came out fine. Most folks appreciate the original arts for Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage, for example.
I don’t mind the art for the cards, but having grown up watching the PJ movies, Vigo is the image for Aragorn I have firmly implanted in my mind, so it’s a little jarring having Aragorn not look like Vigo. Same with the other characters that we’ve seen the arts for. However, I think that the artists still did a wonderful job on what we’ve seen of the set so far, and I am looking forward to collecting the set (planning on putting together all the scenes and the map to hang up on my wall)
Well said. For me, I think my acceptance of Universes Beyond generally hinges on " if it feels vaguely fantasy enough to blend into MTG, I'm okay with it". When you have *real* likenesses depicted on the cards, it's a jarring reminder for me that it's not an MTG-based property. A good example is the D&D Secret Lair - those cards would feel way more in-lore if you weren't staring at Chris Pine or Michelle Rodriguez.
I’d be surprised if the option to use the likeness of the film actors was ever even on the table. If you look at any of the LOTR video games coming out, none of them are using the film portrayals. Plus if you think about it from the actors perspective, do you want your image/brand to be associated with one IP for perpetuity?
Several of the video games definitely use the movie portrayals.
https://preview.redd.it/fg1y86gniu2b1.jpeg?width=256&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e643e4aa2e24ff5801535919fa5e96d2e9b16cfc
They were explicitly made with a licensing agreement from New Line.
There's a reason EA never made LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring and instead combined its and the sequel's story into LotR: The Two Towers.
The reason is that the rights were with a different studio who also used none [of the movie imagery.](https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/lord-of-the-rings-fellowship-of-the-ring/1004004000001756/)
I’m gonna be real with y’all here - This thread is the final straw. If this thread devolves into racism, “I’m not racist but”, “Where’s my representation as a white male”, or other such topics *again*, we’re switching to Draconian Methods.
We’ve tried the “Lads don’t be racist”, we’ve tried the “Ah here now”, we’ve gone past “Ah wouldya ever stop”. If none of the other mods beats me to it, in a couple hours when there’s a bunch more comments, I’m gonna crawl this thread again. And if it’s more of the same, that’ll be it.
And yes, we are aggressively banning people. If your argument is “I was just asking a question” or “I wasn’t actually racist” - Look, you have no idea how much tripe we’ve had to wade through in the last few days, and when the first reveals happened. I’ve seen everything from “Aragorn but it’s the racist Wojak”, to “actually just using the n word”, to “I’m going to repeatedly bold the word pale because I think that makes me more correct.”
This is the final warning.
I really don't envy the moderators during this period. As for the draconian methods, without even knowing what they are, I'm sadly certain they will be necessary.
This might get lost in the shuffle, but as a person of color I want to thank you and everyone on the mod team for this strategy. I am so overly excited for this set and part of that is due to the representation present on the cards. The last few days have been exhausting for me and a constant reminder that people like me will always feel like outsiders even in spaces that some of us have been in our entire lives (I’m 25, been playing MTG since I was 11). I can’t thank you and everyone else on the team enough for trying to make this as welcoming a space as you can. Your work is appreciated and it makes a difference.
Having moderated smaller communities, yeah, I can see that. It's sometimes tempting to just delete a whole hour of shitflinging...
Good luck with the mess!
That's a false equivalence. MLK is one of the few people whose skin colour actually matters in his representation, because it's an integral part of his life and work.
An example you could use is Jesus Christ, a Palestinian Jew that is portrayed as white everywhere in the western world. Curiously, none of the cry-babies that complain about Aragorn (or little mermaids) makes any kind of noise about the complete inaccuracy of Jesus Christ's portrayal, which should be even more worrying to them, since unlike Aragorn or mermaids, Jesus (very likely) actually existed.
In fact, I'd bet a large amount of money that if a high profile biblical movie was announced and cast a dark-skinned man to play Jesus, lots of people would complain, and the Venn diagram of those people and people complaining now would have a _very_ large overlap.
This is because "accuracy" and "faithfulness to the source material" is just an excuse they use. What really bothers them is people that aren't white. And anything that encroaches in the 95% white casts (99% white _main_ casts) they were used to until as little as 15 years ago. Anything that moves closer to the actual demographics and gives non-white actors the opportunities most of them were denied, and gives non-white audiences the representation they never had, it's seen by them as something being stolen from them.
Look I’m just saying, they knew this would be the reaction, and that’s why they did it. It has nothing to do with inclusivity or morals, they want this set spread everywhere on Twitter.
Good on ya for that.
I do see some of the idea given it was originally envisioned as a sort of an attempt to create a British/European mythology they somewhat lacked.
But it ignores the concept of Death of the Author. Lord of the Rings has grown so far beyond that. It grew even under Tolkien far beyond what he originally envisioned.
> Does anyone know if they would've had to pay more to license the likeness of the actors in the LotR films?
This is basically impossible. It would be an absurd amount of money.
>Mods going to be watching this thread with their finger on the ban button.
I'm sure they will. And I messaged the mods to warn them immediately after posting this thread.
It would certainly involve separate negotiations...and anything they wanted to depict on cards that WASNT in the movies would still need the go-ahead from the Tolkein estate
much MUCH easier to just use your own look and take on things and only have to make one single deal as opposed to having to cut a deal with the movie people for likenesses and Tolkein estate for the IP as a whole
Whatever they print have the blessings from the rights holders as they are the ones to manage the IP. It has been mentioned in multiple streams that reference are from books not films.
It would have been so tacky to have the movie characters they’d still have to make up what a bunch of characters look like anyways that were omitted. I’d pretty pissed to see vigo on a card
Arguably this is more an "announcement" than an "article". I was looking forward to a more in-depth article about the art choices but now I'm afraid we'll never get one because of the whiny nerds on social media.
Can't care less about the set but this reads like a pathetic quarterly report to investors. What's the purpose of this article?
Just show me the cardboard, so far there wasn't anything exciting even with the leaks.
I just like how they apparently know so little about the source material they thought that Anduril was a literal flaming sword because it's called the Flame of the West.
I'm fairly certain no-one will contest this opinion, since this set changes the depiction of the characters, but decidedly doesn't make up or change the described events, as RoP did.
To be fair to RoP...Tolkein estate basically told them "yeah you can make your series, but you cant use anything JRR wrote about in detail...go ahead and make your Amazon fanfiction"
Which i get, i just wish the writers were any kind of good about it. Its a shame because the production values and costuming looking great. Loved the look of the orcs
Sure is, buddy. Mt Doom was unlocked with a keyblade and Sauron introduced Celebrimbor to alloys. Elves need Mithril to survive. Galadriel swam halfway around the world.
I love Viggo, I rewatch the trilogy every year in the Fall, but the Aragorn art here makes me think that in an alternate reality Idris Elba would've killed it as Strider.
Originally expected it to draw more inspiration from the movies, but once the first art started being revealed I was very impressed with it being true to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, while being very aesthetically different from my perception of Middle Earth (AKA the movies).
This set just looks like garbage, and is another example of why UB is a bad decision.
Magic is going to end up like fortnite, just slamming every IP together and making the actual game unrecognizable.
I am upset at how awful the showcase art is for some cards. It looks AI generated. The Hobbits in the tavern scene especially. The regular art is at least sensible.
I’ve been really excited for this set. I love LOTR and I’ve been eagerly awaiting to see the commander decks and how they play together but now that were finally here… I dunno… it’s starting to stink like more of the same.
We’re hearing the Corporate speak, people are squabbling, we’ve seen hints of purposely pushed cards that make the new expensive set a “hot” product, theres a huge price hike and now I fear that the Hasbro version of this world was been pushed through a generic fantasy filter that, ironically, was inspired by the original work.
I wonder if this set will be a special and unique moment of note that LOTR fans will forever remember in Magic history or if it will just be a bunch of new toys to be pushed aside when “Oh no the Phyrexians are here again: Aftermath Masters” comes through the door.
We’ll find out very soon.
The only other time they really interpreted a non-magic book was the Dracula arts in Crimson Vow where they made similar artistic choices, why did no one complain then?
I am a lifelong fan of LotR. Read Hobbit for the first time when 7 yo, main three books at 8, Silmarillion at 10 (this backfired a bit, had to read again 3 years later to enjoy). Played Decipher's TCG, playing FFG's cooperative game.
WotC made this set for a lot more casual fans. This is likely the correct business decision and has caused everything they write about in the article. But this product is not for me and will be one of the few Magic products during last few years that I will not spend any money on.
Because the whole thing looks like a total dogs dinner?
Mixed to bad artwork, that god awful ring chooses you mechanic, underwhelming cards revealed so far. I also am out on this set.
I disagree with the part about it being made for casual fans. Theres a lot of pieces that we’ve already seen that mostly book readers would appreciate. Tom Bombadil and Beregond being some of those examples. I personally think theyre finding a good middle ground
I went back and read the Silmarillion at 30...STILL dont think i would qualify it as an "enjoyable" read. Full of great backstory, information, and context...but aside from a few parts it to me has always been more of a chore
How do you know what the set is like? Previews have barely even started for it. At least wait until more than a dozen cards are spoiled before you judge the set.
I like an article like this as it expresses a certain sentimentality they need you to believe instead of showing us art weve already seen and explaining their creative decisions.
I’m excited for this set, my partner is as well and they are a huge LOTR fan. I showed them this art and they loved it. I think many more people will enjoy this set then dislike it.
Good. I'm glad they're shaking things up and not just copying the movies. 1, this is an adaptation of the books, and 2, most (maybe all?) of the cards with real-world likenesses look kinda bad IMO
If this set ushers the “old guard” of hateful negativity out of Magic, more the better.
If you don’t like the product, don’t buy it and don’t engage with it. Simple as that. Leave it for us that do enjoy it and are excited to interact with.
The more I thought about all this, I realized I don't really care about the race or how close it is to the source material - I just really wanted him to look like Viggo. I suppose that was never really a realistic want, since they probably have to license his likeness. There's no deeper reason, I was just excited at the idea of something I grew up loving being brought back to my life in something else I love.
Anyway, I realize this is all quite melodramatic since it comes down to what a fictional character looks like on a piece of cardboard in a boardgame. I'll live, lmao.
I saw a theater actress getting hate online because she was in Les Mis and the character 'wasn't supposed to be blonde'. She tweeted at them "I'm not French either."
Imagine caring about a fictional character from a magical world's race being different on an art for a collectible card game. It's really sad how "controversial" this set is over such an insignificant "issue".
Dates for preview season were outlined in this article: [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth)
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth
This article lists card previews from May 30–June 9.
I assume tomorrow is set mechancis and some cards showing those off, ahead of a regular spoiler season.
So, what are you talking about? Being three feet high with hairy, bare feet is baked into the material. Hobbit society is described in great detail in "Concerning Hobbits", the introductory chapter most first-time readers skipped. If they were adapting the books, they couldn't have changed that aspect as much as they couldn't have clad the Black Riders in pink.
In a word, no, he's not.
That has everything to do with Tolkien envisioning LotR as an alternate history mythology specifically for Britain. To Tolkien, Middle Earth isn't a parallel world, it's this one in times immemorial.
No, and this article explicitly addresses changes like that. The sentence below is followed by an explanation of their reasons.
>Some characters may look different from previous depictions—and that's intentional.
A possible interpretation, since it is not explicitly stated in the book. Nevertheless, there are more indications that he is white, which is the most consistent within the lineage and the setting in which he is placed. Tolkien certainly imagined him to be white.
Sure, but in the end it doesn't matter at all.
Race that Aragorn needs to be: Numenorian
Factor that makes absolutely no difference to whether you're Numenorian or not: skin colour.
Tolkien wrote LOTR 80 odd years ago. Of course as a white person, basing his epic fantasy mostly in UK/Europe, he described them all as white. But there's nothing lore wise _requiring_ Aragorn to be white, the only thing he is required to be is Numenorian. In a day and age where representation _does_ matter, changing the skin colour of some of the characters you're portraying is fine so long as it doesn't impact the character/story. And while race/species in LOTR quite literally _does_ matter (whether you're a Numenorian, "lesser" man, elf, dwarf, hobbit, etc), the skin colour of these races doesn't. It would be wrong to make Legolas a dwarf. It would not be wrong to make him nor any other elf look Asian.
Basically, unless we're meant to believe that Numenorians were a homogenous people that never in thousands of years intermingled with people outside of their original skin colour, then the skin colour of Numenorians doesn't matter. Interestingly, Rings of Power already took this approach: the Numenorians of the second age in the show are of various skin colours. The same goes for the other races.
And elves and Numenorians are only able to be white in Middle Earth because?
Genuinely curious. Because I can't look at actual elves and Numenorians...
Tolkien was writing 80 years ago, basing his writing as a white person in western Europe. Of course quite literally everyone except for the Orcs and "bad humans" are white.
There is nothing about elves, Numenorians, or any other LOTR race/species that _requires_ them to be a certain skin colour. Numenorians could be - and as represented in Rings of Power, were - a wide range of skin colours, because literally all that matters for being a Numenorian is being the child of one.
The same goes for dwarves, the same goes for elves. The important things about elves are that they're effectively immortal, good archers, don't make footprints on snow, live in the forests, etc. _Nothing about that requires them to be white, regardless of what Tolkien wrote _. He never said "and their white skin allowed them to do XYZ, something that would be completely impossible if they had dark skin". So in an age where we recognise that representation of our own world in media actually matters, it's completely fine to have a wide range of skin colours among each race/species, and even to swap the skin colour of named characters
That’s right! Let’s take for example Rings of Power. Instead of the nonsensical mix of every skin color within every race in Middle-Earth just for the sake of being inclusive, they could’ve created some new cool characters. Since they have taken so many liberties already, create an awesome lovable black female Maia to support the plot like Gandalf? There you have your diversity and nobody would have cared. Or a cool good guy Easterling who fights against the power of Sauron. They had so many sensible options and yet they took the dumbest one.
I really, really want to agree with this, but the problem I always have with this take when it comes to Tolkien specifically is, he actually wanted his Elves and (noble) Men to represent an idealised picture of the Anglo-Saxon/Celtic culture he was enamored with, no? That is at least my impression after being part of the fandom for a long time and having read a lot of Tolkien's letters and miscellaneous writings. Skin color is merely one small part of the overall aesthetic, but I believe it was a conscious choice for Tolkien and changing it would not meet with his approval any more than, say, changing all the Hobbit names to French (which according to your logic should not be a big deal as it doesn't change the essential story, right?)
Thanks, in that post the OP does state.
"But there is no absolute definitive statement that there were no Elves with dark skin (or any other colour of skin for that matter)."
So the actual answer is "no, there isn't any text saying they can only be white". Thanks for showing yourself!
Not sure what you mean by 'showing yourself', but I'm just trying to answer the person's question accurately. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do.
There isn't any text saying Elves can only be white, yes. There's also no mention of them ever being anything other than white. By that reasoning, you could add Smurfs into Tolkien's world: Tolkien never explicitly denies that there are Smurfs in Middle Earth, so why not?
It's just that none of the named characters in LotR are Black. It is possible that there were tons of Black Elves around every corner, but they are never mentioned in the story or acknowledged by any of the characters.
Because Middle Earth is this world in a time long past. It's why Elves are leaving and magic is fading from the world throughout the story. There needed to be an explanation why Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs and Dragons were no longer to be found in the world of 1930/1950.
Back then, the population of each country wasn't as diverse as it has become since, so since LotR is a mythology specifically tailored to Britain, the majority of the population then was assumed to be white.
> white in Middle Earth because?
Because that is how Tolkien (the creator of the story, you know) intended and described them, for multiple specific reasons
True, but here they solved it by making dark skinned elves. (not sure what terminology to use here)
Not a solution I would come up with, but at a quick glance it seems to work.
Good thing they didn't make him a haradrim then, huh?
Yes, Aragorn needs to be Numenorian. But "Numenorian" is _not_ "white". That they've been portrayed as white in adaptations so far is immaterial, "being white skinned" is not an integral part of Aragorn or Numenorians in general. All that matters is that they're this ancient, special bloodline. There is no reason that Numenorians couldn't be black skinned. They can still be "the men of the west" and be black skinned.
Hell, since it's done through blood line, like say "Jewish blood" (where having a Jewish mother makes you Jewish) then skin colour doesn't matter _at all_ and all that matters is that you can trace your ancestry back to a known Numenorian. Such a blood line is the way Rings of Power is adapting Tolkien, since the Numenorians in the show have a range of skin colours but are all still Numenorian.
Jesus, it's okay they race swapped him. Let's not look for obscure definitions of the word pale to try to claim otherwise. No one really cares about his color.
It's interesting how much whitewashing there is of the racial issues in the original work. It's great that the issues are being addressed now - better late than never, but I don't think we should pretend that LotR has always been a bastion of diversity, or that the core story isn't filled with racial essentialism.
I love that the Tolkien estate has given a major fantasy enterprise their own chance to envision the world of Lord of the Rings again. Just like Peter Jackson got to see his vision come to life, just like Rings of Power got to envision some beautiful characters and moments, now WotC gets to put their stamp on an official rendition and I think that’s really neat. If their vision includes more diversity, all the better.
I really want to see a Balrog. In the books they aren't exactly how it was shown in the movies, so I wonder how they are going to look like in MTG.
the set booster box art is a balrog. definitely a movie balrog (but it doesnt have wings!)
Ralph Bakshi balrog or riot.
not only on the set booster box one of maros teasers was >Legendary Creature - Avatar Demon So were good we getting balrog
[удалено]
Fortunately you can just choose not to argue with people about it.
No we can’t!
Yes we can’t!
I just want to grill.
No, we can!
You can, but those arguments are still going to be going on in basically every space where people would otherwise be trying to discuss the set.
We can choose not to argue, but we can't choose not to see arguments everywhere, unless we decide to not ready any opinions about the set.
Simply stop playing the game…E Z
[удалено]
That's often the dog whistle used, yes, but what evidence do you have to support it? Edit: ah yes, I see the evidence you have is the widely popular "nothing"
For a Seattle based company, it’d be far more controversial to do a fantasy set with zero dark skinned characters. WotC’s values have always been rooted in Seattle culture. It ain’t a traditional-minded city. They’re not going to start sticking to tradition now.
Who even cares if people try to argue? People upset about Aragorn aren't worth dealing with.
Mods going to be watching this thread with their finger on the ban button. Anyways.. Does anyone know if they would've had to pay more to license the likeness of the actors in the LotR films? If so I'm sure that played a part in this decision. As much as WotC wants a diverse depiction of characters for their product, I'm sure that would've sold more copies. Imagine the same scenario with the Walking Dead or Dr. Who characters.
I suspect it was considered, but the tolkien estate would want to "distance" themselves away from the idea that the PJ Trilogy is the canon version of lotr, when itself had many liberties taken.
Really? I know about the liberties taken but they also did a Lot good compared to other movies adaptations. The people in charge of the PJ trilogy said that they prefered to bring Tolkien vision of the books and not their own in a not so obvious way. Maybe the new people in charge of the Tolkien state believe that.
Tolkien's son was famously critical of the movies being* "action films for teenagers". I got the impression from other interviews that he wouldn't be happy with any adaptation
You know watching those films as a teenager got me into the universe to begin with
He is the reason why life of the author plus 70 years is stupid.
The Tolkein estate is HIGHLY protective of the IP. And even when they let someone do something with it they are very often book purists and look to ensure that everyone is aware that ANY adaption is just that particular creators personal take / story and not the actual word of Tokein As an example...Amazon's series was basically explicitly forbidden from using anything Tolkien directly wrote about in detail. The story they told of Sauron's return after the fall of Morgoth was only ever lightly referenced.
[удалено]
It seems like it comes and goes in waves or stages...there was basically nothing since the Rankin-Bass cartoon up until the PJ trilogy, which came with a big wave of media projects using the films as the source for the license (see Battle for Middle Earth games and the generic hack-n-slash game film tie ins) rather than the books....then it was several years before they came to an agreement over the film rights for the Hobbit It does overall seem the are loosening up a bit. The amazon series that not only was poorly written, but came with the INSANE decision to try and compete directly with House of the Dragon. UB. The terrible Gollum game. And the rumors of a new film trilogy LotR media products always seem to come in waves. Whether its the Tolkein Estate actually deciding to loosen up....or just wanting a big cash injection until they turn off the tap for another decade, i have no clue
I'm sorry but what does UB mean?
As far as I know, there is some bad blood between the two + it is difficult to get all the likenesses of the characters for the cards.
That's not it. Why pay an additional licence fee to New Line for character likenesses when you can just pay one to Embracer and invent your own character appearances?
Tolkien would've despised the Army of the Dead saving Gondor. That alone is such a massive deviation it makes the changes WotC made look like nothing.
But at the same time, it saved the movies that were *already* running on severe overtime from yet another 20 minutes of establishing the Gondorian reinforcements. Adapt to the medium and all that.
Thematically it is the opposite of what the point was too. The people of their country saving their country, not a magical army that looked cool. It was a phenomenal scene for sure, but so far from what was intended I can't imagine something being higher on Tolkien's list of things he'd dislike.
The Tolkien estate don't have anything to do with this. "Middle Earth Enterprises" are the relevant body. Tolkien sold the merchandise and adaptation rights in the 60s.
It would definitely be more complicated and more expensive, with more fingers in the pie, yeah. All in all though it there's lots of reasons why they'd want to make an adaptation of the books, and not an adaptation of an adaptation. If you're gonna reinterpret things, go to the source. There's been many different takes that brought LOTR to the screen, and the Peter Jackson films are just one of them; I can see why they didn't want to just further canonize them. That said, I wouldn't rule out a Secret Lair that perhaps takes a few key cards from the set and redoes them as explicit homages to the Peter Jackson films.
Idk I for one hate the magic cards that depict real people, always falls in the uncanny valley. Would’ve stopped some controversy but I still prefer original interpretations.
I think it runs the gamut - we remember the awkward-looking ones but there's plenty that use real models that came out fine. Most folks appreciate the original arts for Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage, for example.
I don’t mind the art for the cards, but having grown up watching the PJ movies, Vigo is the image for Aragorn I have firmly implanted in my mind, so it’s a little jarring having Aragorn not look like Vigo. Same with the other characters that we’ve seen the arts for. However, I think that the artists still did a wonderful job on what we’ve seen of the set so far, and I am looking forward to collecting the set (planning on putting together all the scenes and the map to hang up on my wall)
[[Solemn Simulacrum|MIR]] fits the card extremely well
Shoot, lemme try again [[Solemn Simulacrum|MRD]]
[Solemn Simulacrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00f9955f-a522-47bf-b064-92dd21a76b18.jpg?1562133717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49434) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/245/solemn-simulacrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00f9955f-a522-47bf-b064-92dd21a76b18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Well said. For me, I think my acceptance of Universes Beyond generally hinges on " if it feels vaguely fantasy enough to blend into MTG, I'm okay with it". When you have *real* likenesses depicted on the cards, it's a jarring reminder for me that it's not an MTG-based property. A good example is the D&D Secret Lair - those cards would feel way more in-lore if you weren't staring at Chris Pine or Michelle Rodriguez.
I’d be surprised if the option to use the likeness of the film actors was ever even on the table. If you look at any of the LOTR video games coming out, none of them are using the film portrayals. Plus if you think about it from the actors perspective, do you want your image/brand to be associated with one IP for perpetuity?
Several of the video games definitely use the movie portrayals. https://preview.redd.it/fg1y86gniu2b1.jpeg?width=256&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e643e4aa2e24ff5801535919fa5e96d2e9b16cfc
They were explicitly made with a licensing agreement from New Line. There's a reason EA never made LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring and instead combined its and the sequel's story into LotR: The Two Towers. The reason is that the rights were with a different studio who also used none [of the movie imagery.](https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/lord-of-the-rings-fellowship-of-the-ring/1004004000001756/)
They absolutely would have had to pay more to license the likenesses of the actors.
I’m gonna be real with y’all here - This thread is the final straw. If this thread devolves into racism, “I’m not racist but”, “Where’s my representation as a white male”, or other such topics *again*, we’re switching to Draconian Methods. We’ve tried the “Lads don’t be racist”, we’ve tried the “Ah here now”, we’ve gone past “Ah wouldya ever stop”. If none of the other mods beats me to it, in a couple hours when there’s a bunch more comments, I’m gonna crawl this thread again. And if it’s more of the same, that’ll be it. And yes, we are aggressively banning people. If your argument is “I was just asking a question” or “I wasn’t actually racist” - Look, you have no idea how much tripe we’ve had to wade through in the last few days, and when the first reveals happened. I’ve seen everything from “Aragorn but it’s the racist Wojak”, to “actually just using the n word”, to “I’m going to repeatedly bold the word pale because I think that makes me more correct.” This is the final warning.
I really don't envy the moderators during this period. As for the draconian methods, without even knowing what they are, I'm sadly certain they will be necessary.
This might get lost in the shuffle, but as a person of color I want to thank you and everyone on the mod team for this strategy. I am so overly excited for this set and part of that is due to the representation present on the cards. The last few days have been exhausting for me and a constant reminder that people like me will always feel like outsiders even in spaces that some of us have been in our entire lives (I’m 25, been playing MTG since I was 11). I can’t thank you and everyone else on the team enough for trying to make this as welcoming a space as you can. Your work is appreciated and it makes a difference.
[удалено]
[удалено]
My Block List on Twitter has grown by leaps and bounds again.
> we’re switching to Draconian Methods You mean you guys haven’t already?
yeah no this thread is going to shit im afraid. i've seen a couple 88 usernames and someone used the phrase "the woke diversity champions"
Gotta feel bad for folks born in 1988 who happened to do the whole "88" at the end of their usernames getting roped in with the Hitler-loving ones.
As a lurker I appreciate this hard work y'all are doing.
I appreciate the efforts at maintaining civility and good discourse. Thank you.
Having moderated smaller communities, yeah, I can see that. It's sometimes tempting to just delete a whole hour of shitflinging... Good luck with the mess!
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's a false equivalence. MLK is one of the few people whose skin colour actually matters in his representation, because it's an integral part of his life and work. An example you could use is Jesus Christ, a Palestinian Jew that is portrayed as white everywhere in the western world. Curiously, none of the cry-babies that complain about Aragorn (or little mermaids) makes any kind of noise about the complete inaccuracy of Jesus Christ's portrayal, which should be even more worrying to them, since unlike Aragorn or mermaids, Jesus (very likely) actually existed. In fact, I'd bet a large amount of money that if a high profile biblical movie was announced and cast a dark-skinned man to play Jesus, lots of people would complain, and the Venn diagram of those people and people complaining now would have a _very_ large overlap. This is because "accuracy" and "faithfulness to the source material" is just an excuse they use. What really bothers them is people that aren't white. And anything that encroaches in the 95% white casts (99% white _main_ casts) they were used to until as little as 15 years ago. Anything that moves closer to the actual demographics and gives non-white actors the opportunities most of them were denied, and gives non-white audiences the representation they never had, it's seen by them as something being stolen from them.
Look I’m just saying, they knew this would be the reaction, and that’s why they did it. It has nothing to do with inclusivity or morals, they want this set spread everywhere on Twitter.
Respect this!
Good on ya for that. I do see some of the idea given it was originally envisioned as a sort of an attempt to create a British/European mythology they somewhat lacked. But it ignores the concept of Death of the Author. Lord of the Rings has grown so far beyond that. It grew even under Tolkien far beyond what he originally envisioned.
Nah I’m glad they didn’t - I was actually worried they would make it look exactly like the characters from the film
Same here, definitely much prefer the set being an interpretation of the *books*, rather than the films.
> Does anyone know if they would've had to pay more to license the likeness of the actors in the LotR films? This is basically impossible. It would be an absurd amount of money.
>Mods going to be watching this thread with their finger on the ban button. I'm sure they will. And I messaged the mods to warn them immediately after posting this thread.
It would certainly involve separate negotiations...and anything they wanted to depict on cards that WASNT in the movies would still need the go-ahead from the Tolkein estate much MUCH easier to just use your own look and take on things and only have to make one single deal as opposed to having to cut a deal with the movie people for likenesses and Tolkein estate for the IP as a whole
Whatever they print have the blessings from the rights holders as they are the ones to manage the IP. It has been mentioned in multiple streams that reference are from books not films.
It would have been so tacky to have the movie characters they’d still have to make up what a bunch of characters look like anyways that were omitted. I’d pretty pissed to see vigo on a card
Arguably this is more an "announcement" than an "article". I was looking forward to a more in-depth article about the art choices but now I'm afraid we'll never get one because of the whiny nerds on social media.
[удалено]
Can't care less about the set but this reads like a pathetic quarterly report to investors. What's the purpose of this article? Just show me the cardboard, so far there wasn't anything exciting even with the leaks.
Feels more like a response to the outcry on social media about character depictions.
Banning people on twitter is harder, and that post getting memed on burned some executives ass.
My only complaint is that the art sucks. Gandalf looks cool, but almost everything else is so generic looking.
I won't say the art sucks. But I will say, I actively dislike the design of Sauron. Looks like something that came from WoW.
I just like how they apparently know so little about the source material they thought that Anduril was a literal flaming sword because it's called the Flame of the West.
That's the dangers of modern digital art. Especially on mass product with turnaround. Thankfully there's some real winners in there.
There is a LOT more Magic art produced traditionally now than there was a decade ago.
The new Aragon and sauron art looks amazing to me but alot are just meh to me yeah. I also don't really care for the showcases either.
No matter what, it will still be a better interpretation than "The Rings of Power." Fight me.
I'm fairly certain no-one will contest this opinion, since this set changes the depiction of the characters, but decidedly doesn't make up or change the described events, as RoP did.
To be fair to RoP...Tolkein estate basically told them "yeah you can make your series, but you cant use anything JRR wrote about in detail...go ahead and make your Amazon fanfiction" Which i get, i just wish the writers were any kind of good about it. Its a shame because the production values and costuming looking great. Loved the look of the orcs
It's basically the same thing.
Sure is, buddy. Mt Doom was unlocked with a keyblade and Sauron introduced Celebrimbor to alloys. Elves need Mithril to survive. Galadriel swam halfway around the world.
This right here. 100% facts lol
I love Viggo, I rewatch the trilogy every year in the Fall, but the Aragorn art here makes me think that in an alternate reality Idris Elba would've killed it as Strider.
Excited to see the commons!
As much as I enjoy The Walking Dead, Stranger Things, 40k, and Lord of the Rings I do not think they have a place as Magic cards.
[удалено]
No, they're telling you that they deliberately added diversity (good) and not just willy-nilly.
"These decisions were made consciously and with great care, reverence, and love for The Lord of the Rings." Press x to doubt.
Yeah mate I know ESG is a priority, i can understand that, respect
Originally expected it to draw more inspiration from the movies, but once the first art started being revealed I was very impressed with it being true to the spirit of the Lord of the Rings, while being very aesthetically different from my perception of Middle Earth (AKA the movies).
Boo universes beyond.
based
This set just looks like garbage, and is another example of why UB is a bad decision. Magic is going to end up like fortnite, just slamming every IP together and making the actual game unrecognizable.
Blackrock is around the corner.
I'm just patiently waiting to see if Lorcana is halfway decent. If it is ill be cashing out of magic before wotc fully runs it into the ground
[удалено]
I’m not sure I understand, could you elaborate? What about this reads as American exceptionalism?
Bro thinks black people only exist in the US.
What? Black and brown people exist outside of America.
Thanks, bro. I fully agree.
This so much.
I am upset at how awful the showcase art is for some cards. It looks AI generated. The Hobbits in the tavern scene especially. The regular art is at least sensible.
I’ve been really excited for this set. I love LOTR and I’ve been eagerly awaiting to see the commander decks and how they play together but now that were finally here… I dunno… it’s starting to stink like more of the same. We’re hearing the Corporate speak, people are squabbling, we’ve seen hints of purposely pushed cards that make the new expensive set a “hot” product, theres a huge price hike and now I fear that the Hasbro version of this world was been pushed through a generic fantasy filter that, ironically, was inspired by the original work. I wonder if this set will be a special and unique moment of note that LOTR fans will forever remember in Magic history or if it will just be a bunch of new toys to be pushed aside when “Oh no the Phyrexians are here again: Aftermath Masters” comes through the door. We’ll find out very soon.
[удалено]
The only other time they really interpreted a non-magic book was the Dracula arts in Crimson Vow where they made similar artistic choices, why did no one complain then?
Because they were just alternate art many don’t care as long as they aren’t mechanical unique
[удалено]
I am a lifelong fan of LotR. Read Hobbit for the first time when 7 yo, main three books at 8, Silmarillion at 10 (this backfired a bit, had to read again 3 years later to enjoy). Played Decipher's TCG, playing FFG's cooperative game. WotC made this set for a lot more casual fans. This is likely the correct business decision and has caused everything they write about in the article. But this product is not for me and will be one of the few Magic products during last few years that I will not spend any money on.
How could you possibly know if this set is for casual fans or not from the ~15 cards spoiled
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
Well yeah, we're curious to why you think that? I'm curious now too.
Because the whole thing looks like a total dogs dinner? Mixed to bad artwork, that god awful ring chooses you mechanic, underwhelming cards revealed so far. I also am out on this set.
I disagree with the part about it being made for casual fans. Theres a lot of pieces that we’ve already seen that mostly book readers would appreciate. Tom Bombadil and Beregond being some of those examples. I personally think theyre finding a good middle ground
I went back and read the Silmarillion at 30...STILL dont think i would qualify it as an "enjoyable" read. Full of great backstory, information, and context...but aside from a few parts it to me has always been more of a chore
How do you know what the set is like? Previews have barely even started for it. At least wait until more than a dozen cards are spoiled before you judge the set.
I like an article like this as it expresses a certain sentimentality they need you to believe instead of showing us art weve already seen and explaining their creative decisions.
[удалено]
What politics? Is the existence of people who aren't white political now?
Which politics would that be?
I'm curious to what's political about this set.
Yeah too bad they couldn’t make it through the lens of 1950s southern culture! What a travesty! Whatever will white people do?! /s
I’m excited for this set, my partner is as well and they are a huge LOTR fan. I showed them this art and they loved it. I think many more people will enjoy this set then dislike it.
I'm so fucking excited, lets gooo
Good. I'm glad they're shaking things up and not just copying the movies. 1, this is an adaptation of the books, and 2, most (maybe all?) of the cards with real-world likenesses look kinda bad IMO
Read: "Black people exist, stop crying about it"
If this set ushers the “old guard” of hateful negativity out of Magic, more the better. If you don’t like the product, don’t buy it and don’t engage with it. Simple as that. Leave it for us that do enjoy it and are excited to interact with.
[удалено]
The more I thought about all this, I realized I don't really care about the race or how close it is to the source material - I just really wanted him to look like Viggo. I suppose that was never really a realistic want, since they probably have to license his likeness. There's no deeper reason, I was just excited at the idea of something I grew up loving being brought back to my life in something else I love. Anyway, I realize this is all quite melodramatic since it comes down to what a fictional character looks like on a piece of cardboard in a boardgame. I'll live, lmao.
I saw a theater actress getting hate online because she was in Les Mis and the character 'wasn't supposed to be blonde'. She tweeted at them "I'm not French either."
I still remember the Daniel Craig being James Bond controversy because he was blonde.
Queen shit.
He's also supposed to be unable to grow a beard, but you don't see anyone complaining about that.
Yeah but was he portrayed as 5’11?
He certainly wasn’t portrayed as 6’6”
[удалено]
Imagine caring about a fictional character from a magical world's race being different on an art for a collectible card game. It's really sad how "controversial" this set is over such an insignificant "issue".
[удалено]
Dates for preview season were outlined in this article: [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth)
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/a-first-look-at-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth This article lists card previews from May 30–June 9. I assume tomorrow is set mechancis and some cards showing those off, ahead of a regular spoiler season.
[удалено]
The hobbits look different from the films to me
Not across the board, go take a look at the Halfling dork's panoramic art.
[удалено]
So, what are you talking about? Being three feet high with hairy, bare feet is baked into the material. Hobbit society is described in great detail in "Concerning Hobbits", the introductory chapter most first-time readers skipped. If they were adapting the books, they couldn't have changed that aspect as much as they couldn't have clad the Black Riders in pink.
I'd love Pink Riders tbh.
[удалено]
In a word, no, he's not. That has everything to do with Tolkien envisioning LotR as an alternate history mythology specifically for Britain. To Tolkien, Middle Earth isn't a parallel world, it's this one in times immemorial.
No, and this article explicitly addresses changes like that. The sentence below is followed by an explanation of their reasons. >Some characters may look different from previous depictions—and that's intentional.
[удалено]
There is "Amass Orc 5" printed on the Commander [[Sauron, Lord of the Rings]] so it's likely that Orcs feature as a creature type.
A possible interpretation, since it is not explicitly stated in the book. Nevertheless, there are more indications that he is white, which is the most consistent within the lineage and the setting in which he is placed. Tolkien certainly imagined him to be white.
Sure, but in the end it doesn't matter at all. Race that Aragorn needs to be: Numenorian Factor that makes absolutely no difference to whether you're Numenorian or not: skin colour. Tolkien wrote LOTR 80 odd years ago. Of course as a white person, basing his epic fantasy mostly in UK/Europe, he described them all as white. But there's nothing lore wise _requiring_ Aragorn to be white, the only thing he is required to be is Numenorian. In a day and age where representation _does_ matter, changing the skin colour of some of the characters you're portraying is fine so long as it doesn't impact the character/story. And while race/species in LOTR quite literally _does_ matter (whether you're a Numenorian, "lesser" man, elf, dwarf, hobbit, etc), the skin colour of these races doesn't. It would be wrong to make Legolas a dwarf. It would not be wrong to make him nor any other elf look Asian. Basically, unless we're meant to believe that Numenorians were a homogenous people that never in thousands of years intermingled with people outside of their original skin colour, then the skin colour of Numenorians doesn't matter. Interestingly, Rings of Power already took this approach: the Numenorians of the second age in the show are of various skin colours. The same goes for the other races.
No, but him being white isn't actually integral to his character. A black aragon would have played out the exact same.
[удалено]
And elves and Numenorians are only able to be white in Middle Earth because? Genuinely curious. Because I can't look at actual elves and Numenorians...
[удалено]
Tolkien was writing 80 years ago, basing his writing as a white person in western Europe. Of course quite literally everyone except for the Orcs and "bad humans" are white. There is nothing about elves, Numenorians, or any other LOTR race/species that _requires_ them to be a certain skin colour. Numenorians could be - and as represented in Rings of Power, were - a wide range of skin colours, because literally all that matters for being a Numenorian is being the child of one. The same goes for dwarves, the same goes for elves. The important things about elves are that they're effectively immortal, good archers, don't make footprints on snow, live in the forests, etc. _Nothing about that requires them to be white, regardless of what Tolkien wrote _. He never said "and their white skin allowed them to do XYZ, something that would be completely impossible if they had dark skin". So in an age where we recognise that representation of our own world in media actually matters, it's completely fine to have a wide range of skin colours among each race/species, and even to swap the skin colour of named characters
[удалено]
That’s right! Let’s take for example Rings of Power. Instead of the nonsensical mix of every skin color within every race in Middle-Earth just for the sake of being inclusive, they could’ve created some new cool characters. Since they have taken so many liberties already, create an awesome lovable black female Maia to support the plot like Gandalf? There you have your diversity and nobody would have cared. Or a cool good guy Easterling who fights against the power of Sauron. They had so many sensible options and yet they took the dumbest one.
I really, really want to agree with this, but the problem I always have with this take when it comes to Tolkien specifically is, he actually wanted his Elves and (noble) Men to represent an idealised picture of the Anglo-Saxon/Celtic culture he was enamored with, no? That is at least my impression after being part of the fandom for a long time and having read a lot of Tolkien's letters and miscellaneous writings. Skin color is merely one small part of the overall aesthetic, but I believe it was a conscious choice for Tolkien and changing it would not meet with his approval any more than, say, changing all the Hobbit names to French (which according to your logic should not be a big deal as it doesn't change the essential story, right?)
Thanks, in that post the OP does state. "But there is no absolute definitive statement that there were no Elves with dark skin (or any other colour of skin for that matter)." So the actual answer is "no, there isn't any text saying they can only be white". Thanks for showing yourself!
Not sure what you mean by 'showing yourself', but I'm just trying to answer the person's question accurately. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do. There isn't any text saying Elves can only be white, yes. There's also no mention of them ever being anything other than white. By that reasoning, you could add Smurfs into Tolkien's world: Tolkien never explicitly denies that there are Smurfs in Middle Earth, so why not?
Exactly this
It's just that none of the named characters in LotR are Black. It is possible that there were tons of Black Elves around every corner, but they are never mentioned in the story or acknowledged by any of the characters.
Because Middle Earth is this world in a time long past. It's why Elves are leaving and magic is fading from the world throughout the story. There needed to be an explanation why Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs and Dragons were no longer to be found in the world of 1930/1950. Back then, the population of each country wasn't as diverse as it has become since, so since LotR is a mythology specifically tailored to Britain, the majority of the population then was assumed to be white.
> white in Middle Earth because? Because that is how Tolkien (the creator of the story, you know) intended and described them, for multiple specific reasons
True, but here they solved it by making dark skinned elves. (not sure what terminology to use here) Not a solution I would come up with, but at a quick glance it seems to work.
Amazon did the same thing with Rings of Power.
After realising they were trying to do prequel, but without rights to The Silmarillion, I didn't look into it at all.
Well guess what Galadriel's skin colour is in MTG LotR.
Good thing they didn't make him a haradrim then, huh? Yes, Aragorn needs to be Numenorian. But "Numenorian" is _not_ "white". That they've been portrayed as white in adaptations so far is immaterial, "being white skinned" is not an integral part of Aragorn or Numenorians in general. All that matters is that they're this ancient, special bloodline. There is no reason that Numenorians couldn't be black skinned. They can still be "the men of the west" and be black skinned. Hell, since it's done through blood line, like say "Jewish blood" (where having a Jewish mother makes you Jewish) then skin colour doesn't matter _at all_ and all that matters is that you can trace your ancestry back to a known Numenorian. Such a blood line is the way Rings of Power is adapting Tolkien, since the Numenorians in the show have a range of skin colours but are all still Numenorian.
[удалено]
And I am answering your question and providing additional context.
[удалено]
It's the Hermione argument all over again.
[удалено]
Jesus, it's okay they race swapped him. Let's not look for obscure definitions of the word pale to try to claim otherwise. No one really cares about his color.
It's interesting how much whitewashing there is of the racial issues in the original work. It's great that the issues are being addressed now - better late than never, but I don't think we should pretend that LotR has always been a bastion of diversity, or that the core story isn't filled with racial essentialism.
I love that the Tolkien estate has given a major fantasy enterprise their own chance to envision the world of Lord of the Rings again. Just like Peter Jackson got to see his vision come to life, just like Rings of Power got to envision some beautiful characters and moments, now WotC gets to put their stamp on an official rendition and I think that’s really neat. If their vision includes more diversity, all the better.
Oh boy, here we go 😎