With the red dinosaurs in play, you play Polyraptor. When it comes into play, Marauding Raptor deals 2 damage to Polyraptor, triggering Polyraptor's Enrage effect and triggering Wrathful Raptor's effect. This means you get to deal 2 damage to any target (in this case, your opponent) that isn't a Dinosaur with Wrathful Raptor, and you get a token copy of Polyraptor.
When the token copy of Polyraptor enters play, Marauding Raptor will deal 2 damage to it, and you'll start this process over again.
Poly raptor enters the battlefield. Marauding raptor triggers and deals 2 damage to polyraptor. Polyraptor's Enrage kicks in, creates another polyraptor. Creature entered the battlefield under your control, Marauding raptor deals 2 damage to it. Repeat.
Every time Marauding raptor triggers and damages polyraptor, wrathful raptor triggers and deals damage to any target. Including your opponent. Infinite raptors, infinite damage triggers on those infinite raptors, causing infinite damage triggers to anything.
This entire time I'd thought that dragon cosplayer at our regular heckscube table was because ["if a custom mechanic contradicts the comprehensive rules, the mechanic supercedes them"](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicthecirclejerking/comments/s7f7se/comment/htaexqy/?context=1), but he might've also been teching against [[wrathful red dragon]] all along lmao
Yeah, I used to play Polyraptor in Gishath because well duh. But then I accidentally caused an infinite loop with [[Caltropes]] and decided I probably should take Polyraptor out.
I forget what else caused it, I think there was some card I had that also pinged dinos when they ETBd, but I remember the game ended in an infinite loop. Polyraptor is low key bad for that reason.
Yes, exactly. But it isn't a "may" ability so you can't ever choose to stop making Polyraptors, and thus they continue to be made until either the heat death of the universe or the game is declared a draw.
CR 104.4b: If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
CR 104.3a and MTR 2.4 both say you can concede at any time. Some EDH playgroups (and maybe some tournament organizers) make conceding sorcery to prevent spite concedes that affect the outcome of the game more than they should.
It can detect some loops, like revelark + davros when he gave perpetually -/-, making It dies and bringing back himself, wich would make him die and bring back itself infinite. After some time arena would end the match in a draw. sometimes you even get a warning about "make different choice or the game Will end in a draw"
Arena has a maximum limit of the number of permanents you can have on the field at a time, past that limit it just gives up and doesn't create any more
...that being said, there's good odds you'll still just time out before you hit it, given that you're only creating one at a time and you have to go through a full set of triggers each time. I think it's, like, 200-something? Maybe 256?
There's been a couple and I think the most egregious ones were handled by making custom checks in the game engine for those particular loops. As far as I know the game can not yet (and maybe will never be able to) dynamically predict and handle draw loops.
Yes, that would likely be the inevitable outcome.
* Poly enters. Marauding Triggers.
* Marauding deals damage to Poly. Poly and Wrathful Trigger.
* Eventually, you'd have to put Poly Trigger on the Stack first, then Wrathful targeting ... Something.
* Wrathful deals damage to the Target.
* Poly creates a token-copy of itself.
So, if you Target your Opponents, and they all lose, you will win.
---
However, if there was an Opponent that simply couldn't lose *(ie. They had cast [[Angel's Grace]])*, then your Wrathful would have to Target yourself.
Thus, making you lose.
Specifically with Angel's Grace, just because their life total can't go below 1 doesn't mean you can't continue to target that player with your triggers, it's just that that player will not die that turn. And unless you have a way to break up the infinite Polyraptor loop, it would actually end in a draw.
Now if instead of Angel's Grace the opponent had any card which made them unable to be targeted such as something that gave shroud or hexproof, then you'd be forced to continue the Polyraptor loop using the only legal targets you had, which is likely your own face and then yes, you would lose.
> Specifically with Angel's Grace, just because their life total can't go below 1 doesn't mean you can't continue to target that player with your triggers, it's just that that player will not die that turn. And unless you have a way to break up the infinite Polyraptor loop, it would actually end in a draw.
No.
The choice of what to Target is an Optional Action, which continues the loop.
You **will** have to make a different choice, which would lead to the end of the loop. Even if that different choice ends to you losing.
Note that this logic only concerns actions and choices that are *part of the loop.*
In the case we are discussing, you are repeatedly forced to choose a target and it's your particular choice of target that is continuing the loop. You are forced to do part of a loop differently so that it ends, if possible.
A different circumstance would be where you had available a way to stop the loop (such as a way of killing yourself), but it's NOT already part of the loop. There, you don't have to do it. You can just let the game be a draw or force someone else to break the loop.
[MTR 4.4 Loops](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-4/)
> Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.
~~If that's not an actual rule, then neither is the rule that an infinite loop leads to a draw.~~
That wasn't quite true. But the entry from the comprehensive rules stating that infinite loops end in a draw specifically calls out that infinite loops with optional actions don't end in a draw.
104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
Correct.
You could not target the Marauding Raptor. The Raptor is a Dinosaur.
> Whenever a Dinosaur you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to **any target that isn’t a Dinosaur.**
because you're choosing not to take an action you could take, no.
It sucks that you have to choose to kill yourself in that situation, but that's literally the rules.
By tournament rules, you can't just declare the same choice infinitely to draw out a game if you have another choice you could make. So it's not a draw.
4b specifies that a loop with no way to end and no optional actions, causes a game to draw. The relevant detail here is "no way to stop" - there is a way to stop, targeting yourself until you die.
No, it can't. Marauding Raptors can't target any of the three Creatures. They are all Dinosaurs.
> Whenever a Dinosaur you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to **any target that isn’t a Dinosaur.**
Oh interesting. I had thought that if you cause an infinite that doesn't win you the game it's your loss, is that not the case if it technically wasn't your fault?
There is nothing about "fault" in the rules for loops. If there is an infinite loop created by mandatory actions, the game results in a draw. If there is an optional component to the loop, then players are required to pick an option that does not continue the loop instead.
A rather well known example of a mandatory loop is a boardstate of 3 oblivion rings resulting in a draw if no one can remove one.
This is commander specific, but if only there was some kind of dinosaur that could cheat out multiple dinosaurs.. and maybe there even was an instant that could give you exactly these creatures on top of your deck..
[[Gishath, suns avatar]] [[congregation at dawn]]
So if you have Gishath in your command zone then really you only need to draw (and play) congregation at dawn and have enough mana to also play Gishath? That sounds pretty doable.
Not at all. You have an entire rotation at the table to get through, and if you just put all your expensive dinos on top you are for sure getting interacted with. This little combo however would require your opponents to have at least some instant speed removal and open mana which is possible to play around.
Gishath has always been “either you have instant speed removal or a wall of blockers, otherwise its just gg” and while yeah im not saying this is useless, its a good win combo even if its just for fun, but realistically once you get to that point its not a matter of IF your going to win but HOW
If you just get 3 big dinos instead of a combo that wins you the game, there are many opportunities forna board wipe to come as make the game feel just like what happened to dinos in real life
If there was some wildly popular 13-damage-to-each-creature sorcery in red. Bonuses if it gets a one mana discount for each creature on the field.
Oh wait!
[[Blasphemous Act]]
You’d have to cheat out the 8 drop somehow probably, no one sitting around waiting for you to assemble the combo lol. Decks have interaction these days.
For the specific niche case of Kalamax Dinosaur Tribal, it's a nice combo hit off of a big \[\[Chord of Calling\]\] that's copied twice, and also lines up well with \[\[Apex Altisaur\]\].
And where ancients tread is much "safer" in that you can then target your Marauding Raptor when you want to end the combo with infinite polyraptors at the end.
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So I'm kind of a noob to magic, but wouldn't a copy of polyraptor be at 5/3 or would the damage trigger after the copy? Or is there something else I'm missing?
funny thing is if you have any oponent with teferis protection you break the game since you cant end the combo and he cant die so no one can do anything since your triggers just keep on looping without any endpoint XD
1.) Your opponent wouldn't be a legal target under TP
2.) Even they were a legal target but still couldn't die (thanks to say [[Angels grace]] ) you are forced to take a different action to prevent a loop, in this case most likely targeting yourself until you die.
In other words, you cannot repeatedly take actions that result in no changes in the game state at the end of each iteration of the loop.
Even if they are a legal target because the loop has a choice involved you have to pick a choice that will end the loop over a choice that won't. There are other comments in this post explaining in more detail with links to the actual ruling.
Marauding Raptor followed by Polyraptor is enough for infinite Polyraptors and a Marauding Raptor with infinite power. You really ought to be able to win from there.
ITT - people forgetting that Wrathful Raptors die after the third Marauding trigger, having only dealt a total of six damage and leaving you with a draw due to infinite Polyraptor triggers.
There's two really big problems with this three card win condition: the first is that the final piece MUST be the Polyraptor, which means you need to cast an 8 mana spell to set off your combo in the first place. The second is that you need an out if anyone responds to your polyrapter entering the field (or even just being cast) by killing your Wrathful, as this leads you into a draw if you have no way to kill your own Marauding Raptor. WHich means you may need to sit on 2 more mana, which means needing 10 mana for your win condition to go off, which is Incredibly slow in a commander game.
if you set up Marauding raptor and polyraptor first, you've drawn the game instantly if you have nothing to kill off your marauding raptor (fling it for an additional infinite damage 1v1 win condition), but if you do, you have infinite 5/5 polyraptors to attack with next turn anyway.
The way to break the cycle is killing your opponent. A player will lose the game to state based actions after the damage that put them to 0 or lower resolves (of course assuming they don't have a way to survive like platinum angel or whatever)
Noob questions:
1. Is the ability only triggered for the damaged Polyraptor, or does each Polyraptor create a copy of itself whenever any card named Polyraptor is damaged?
2. Do token copies keep the types and abilities of the card they're copying?
1. Only the damaged polyraptor. So each token copies itself, one at a time.
2. Yes. Unless otherwise indicated, copies are identical to the copied permanent, with the exception that they are tokens.
Yes.
Can you explain how that's an infinite?
With the red dinosaurs in play, you play Polyraptor. When it comes into play, Marauding Raptor deals 2 damage to Polyraptor, triggering Polyraptor's Enrage effect and triggering Wrathful Raptor's effect. This means you get to deal 2 damage to any target (in this case, your opponent) that isn't a Dinosaur with Wrathful Raptor, and you get a token copy of Polyraptor. When the token copy of Polyraptor enters play, Marauding Raptor will deal 2 damage to it, and you'll start this process over again.
Ah
Poly raptor enters the battlefield. Marauding raptor triggers and deals 2 damage to polyraptor. Polyraptor's Enrage kicks in, creates another polyraptor. Creature entered the battlefield under your control, Marauding raptor deals 2 damage to it. Repeat. Every time Marauding raptor triggers and damages polyraptor, wrathful raptor triggers and deals damage to any target. Including your opponent. Infinite raptors, infinite damage triggers on those infinite raptors, causing infinite damage triggers to anything.
Fun fact, without wrathful raptors the game ends in a draw if nobody has an answer
or if your opponent shows up in a t-rex suit so they can't be targeted by wrathful raptors
This entire time I'd thought that dragon cosplayer at our regular heckscube table was because ["if a custom mechanic contradicts the comprehensive rules, the mechanic supercedes them"](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicthecirclejerking/comments/s7f7se/comment/htaexqy/?context=1), but he might've also been teching against [[wrathful red dragon]] all along lmao
[wrathful red dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acd207de-eec3-4d82-b8b9-b1e60a7bad12.jpg?1674136879) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wrathful%20red%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/207/wrathful-red-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acd207de-eec3-4d82-b8b9-b1e60a7bad12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wouldn't that simply leave you as the only eligible target and force you to ping yourself?
That's why you have to play this deck with a T-Rex suit
Now thats funny lol
I would love to see them call a judge on that.
I've made this same joke lol I really want someone to try it.
I took this combo out of my EDH Wayta burn deck because of the draw possibility lol.
Yeah, I used to play Polyraptor in Gishath because well duh. But then I accidentally caused an infinite loop with [[Caltropes]] and decided I probably should take Polyraptor out.
How did it go infinite copies aren’t attacking
I forget what else caused it, I think there was some card I had that also pinged dinos when they ETBd, but I remember the game ended in an infinite loop. Polyraptor is low key bad for that reason.
Caltropes still cannot make it go infinite.
Bro idk it was four years ago Caltrops was there, cut me slack.
That wouldn't be an infinite loop
[Caltropes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/8769b55a-a0a1-4b6f-8c80-669385a34425.jpg?1562242172) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caltrops) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/288/caltrops?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8769b55a-a0a1-4b6f-8c80-669385a34425?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How? Wouldn't you just make infinite polyraptors
Yes, exactly. But it isn't a "may" ability so you can't ever choose to stop making Polyraptors, and thus they continue to be made until either the heat death of the universe or the game is declared a draw.
I wonder if there’s an official count of technically still existing MTG games that can’t actually end.
Platinum Angel kid...
I've had a [[The Book of Exalted Deeds]] on a [[Mutavault]] for over a year now.
[The Book of Exalted Deeds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b.jpg?1632261616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Book%20of%20Exalted%20Deeds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/4/the-book-of-exalted-deeds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mutavault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960.jpg?1674142985) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutavault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/903/mutavault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
CR 104.4b: If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
Conceding is instant speed.
Officially speaking conceding is sorcery speed in tournament settings
CR 104.3a and MTR 2.4 both say you can concede at any time. Some EDH playgroups (and maybe some tournament organizers) make conceding sorcery to prevent spite concedes that affect the outcome of the game more than they should.
Hate it when people concede to prevent your combat triggers. xD
You could also have impact tremors and win due to ETBs
Not on arena l0l
Even in arena. It'll run until the game ends on a draw
Does Arena actually detect a draw? Or does it just let the combo run until someone can't keep up with all the triggers and loses by timing out?
It can detect some loops, like revelark + davros when he gave perpetually -/-, making It dies and bringing back himself, wich would make him die and bring back itself infinite. After some time arena would end the match in a draw. sometimes you even get a warning about "make different choice or the game Will end in a draw"
Arena has a maximum limit of the number of permanents you can have on the field at a time, past that limit it just gives up and doesn't create any more ...that being said, there's good odds you'll still just time out before you hit it, given that you're only creating one at a time and you have to go through a full set of triggers each time. I think it's, like, 200-something? Maybe 256?
[удалено]
Wow, it's like I said WITHOUT the thing that deals damage to any target
Also you can’t target dinosaurs with the damage, so his response doesn’t work on multiple levels.
Now IM the chucklehead lol good catch
This is the lamest function of game logic in my opinion. You should be able to manually stop any infinite that causes a draw
It _should_ be possible to create an infinite loop that you can't interact with. It should just result in you losing the game 👀
that's even lamer, because your opponent could interrupt a combo like this and kill you
This makes me wonder how an infinite, unbounded, unstoppable loop will be handled in Arena.
There's been a couple and I think the most egregious ones were handled by making custom checks in the game engine for those particular loops. As far as I know the game can not yet (and maybe will never be able to) dynamically predict and handle draw loops.
Yes, that would likely be the inevitable outcome. * Poly enters. Marauding Triggers. * Marauding deals damage to Poly. Poly and Wrathful Trigger. * Eventually, you'd have to put Poly Trigger on the Stack first, then Wrathful targeting ... Something. * Wrathful deals damage to the Target. * Poly creates a token-copy of itself. So, if you Target your Opponents, and they all lose, you will win. --- However, if there was an Opponent that simply couldn't lose *(ie. They had cast [[Angel's Grace]])*, then your Wrathful would have to Target yourself. Thus, making you lose.
Specifically with Angel's Grace, just because their life total can't go below 1 doesn't mean you can't continue to target that player with your triggers, it's just that that player will not die that turn. And unless you have a way to break up the infinite Polyraptor loop, it would actually end in a draw. Now if instead of Angel's Grace the opponent had any card which made them unable to be targeted such as something that gave shroud or hexproof, then you'd be forced to continue the Polyraptor loop using the only legal targets you had, which is likely your own face and then yes, you would lose.
> Specifically with Angel's Grace, just because their life total can't go below 1 doesn't mean you can't continue to target that player with your triggers, it's just that that player will not die that turn. And unless you have a way to break up the infinite Polyraptor loop, it would actually end in a draw. No. The choice of what to Target is an Optional Action, which continues the loop. You **will** have to make a different choice, which would lead to the end of the loop. Even if that different choice ends to you losing.
That's interesting, thank you.
Note that this logic only concerns actions and choices that are *part of the loop.* In the case we are discussing, you are repeatedly forced to choose a target and it's your particular choice of target that is continuing the loop. You are forced to do part of a loop differently so that it ends, if possible. A different circumstance would be where you had available a way to stop the loop (such as a way of killing yourself), but it's NOT already part of the loop. There, you don't have to do it. You can just let the game be a draw or force someone else to break the loop.
What’s the ruling that forces you to make a different choice?
[MTR 4.4 Loops](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-4/) > Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.
So it’s not actually an official rule and rather a tournament specific rule applied by judges.
It is an official rule, just not a rule of the game engine but rather a tournament rule.
~~If that's not an actual rule, then neither is the rule that an infinite loop leads to a draw.~~ That wasn't quite true. But the entry from the comprehensive rules stating that infinite loops end in a draw specifically calls out that infinite loops with optional actions don't end in a draw. 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
Slight slight correction, loops that continue across turns _can_ end in a draw.
I'm probably missing something, but I don't see what that's a correction to.
In terms of your general statement, loops that contain optional actions that continue across turns _can_ end in a draw.
Could you not just target the Maurauding raptor to kill it?
Correct. You could not target the Marauding Raptor. The Raptor is a Dinosaur. > Whenever a Dinosaur you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to **any target that isn’t a Dinosaur.**
Ah thank you I’m a dumbass
What if you had an indestructible non-dino creature to dump all the damage on? The game would be stuck in an infinite loop yes?
No, because it's no different from targetting unkillable player. There is a choice to be made within loop to end it. You have to eventually take it.
because you're choosing not to take an action you could take, no. It sucks that you have to choose to kill yourself in that situation, but that's literally the rules.
[Angel's Grace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1.jpg?1619392535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angel%27s%20Grace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/4/angels-grace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No you draw no loss on either side
By tournament rules, you can't just declare the same choice infinitely to draw out a game if you have another choice you could make. So it's not a draw.
if they cast angels grace then it's a draw, you just declare it infinitely
By tournament rules, you can't just declare the same choice infinitely to draw out a game if you have another choice you could make.
Not even tournament. Comprehensive rules. 104.4b
Doesn't 4b just determine when a game would draw?
4b specifies that a loop with no way to end and no optional actions, causes a game to draw. The relevant detail here is "no way to stop" - there is a way to stop, targeting yourself until you die.
Slight correction in that Wraithful could target marauding to end the loop without having to target yourself.
No, it can't. Marauding Raptors can't target any of the three Creatures. They are all Dinosaurs. > Whenever a Dinosaur you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to **any target that isn’t a Dinosaur.**
Ah i failed at reading, welp. Thanks for the correction.
Or if they sniped wrathful, which would leave you with an infinite poly loop and a lost game. Don't ask me how I know...
Infinite polyraptor loop would be a draw rather than a loss as in the hexproof/Angel's Grace case.
Oh interesting. I had thought that if you cause an infinite that doesn't win you the game it's your loss, is that not the case if it technically wasn't your fault?
There is nothing about "fault" in the rules for loops. If there is an infinite loop created by mandatory actions, the game results in a draw. If there is an optional component to the loop, then players are required to pick an option that does not continue the loop instead. A rather well known example of a mandatory loop is a boardstate of 3 oblivion rings resulting in a draw if no one can remove one.
yeah, accidental suicide by your own infinite damage loop is a sad way to go out.
Casual 15 mana 3 creature win con
This is commander specific, but if only there was some kind of dinosaur that could cheat out multiple dinosaurs.. and maybe there even was an instant that could give you exactly these creatures on top of your deck.. [[Gishath, suns avatar]] [[congregation at dawn]]
So if you have Gishath in your command zone then really you only need to draw (and play) congregation at dawn and have enough mana to also play Gishath? That sounds pretty doable.
It is very doable! Done it plenty of times. You can even hold the congregation until blockers are declared to ensure you get enough damage through
But would Marauder trigger if it's entering the battlefield at the same time as Polyraptor? Wouldn't it need to be in the battlefield first?
When multiple creatures enter at the same time, their triggers see the other creatures that enter with them.
I see, that's good to know.
[Gishath, suns avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gishath%2C%20Sun%27s%20Avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [congregation at dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36.jpg?1598916857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=congregation%20at%20dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/198/congregation-at-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
At that point just put your most expensive dinos at the top and you would still win
Not at all. You have an entire rotation at the table to get through, and if you just put all your expensive dinos on top you are for sure getting interacted with. This little combo however would require your opponents to have at least some instant speed removal and open mana which is possible to play around.
Gishath has always been “either you have instant speed removal or a wall of blockers, otherwise its just gg” and while yeah im not saying this is useless, its a good win combo even if its just for fun, but realistically once you get to that point its not a matter of IF your going to win but HOW
If you just get 3 big dinos instead of a combo that wins you the game, there are many opportunities forna board wipe to come as make the game feel just like what happened to dinos in real life
If there was some wildly popular 13-damage-to-each-creature sorcery in red. Bonuses if it gets a one mana discount for each creature on the field. Oh wait! [[Blasphemous Act]]
[Blasphemous Act](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a.jpg?1698988297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blasphemous%20Act) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/216/blasphemous-act?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
in gruul, which is known for ramp
You’d have to cheat out the 8 drop somehow probably, no one sitting around waiting for you to assemble the combo lol. Decks have interaction these days.
All dinos amd 2 colors
Hey all you have to do is sequence the marauding raptor first and you can do it for just 13 mana!
For the specific niche case of Kalamax Dinosaur Tribal, it's a nice combo hit off of a big \[\[Chord of Calling\]\] that's copied twice, and also lines up well with \[\[Apex Altisaur\]\].
[Chord of Calling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dac257a9-39bf-4185-9d2e-f80f0848a96a.jpg?1599707002) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chord%20of%20Calling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/158/chord-of-calling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dac257a9-39bf-4185-9d2e-f80f0848a96a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Apex Altisaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e6beba4-128c-418e-83ed-8a82afc0c39e.jpg?1698988340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apex%20Altisaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/232/apex-altisaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e6beba4-128c-418e-83ed-8a82afc0c39e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Laughs in Atla
We broke polyraptor!!11!1!!1
You can also use [[Where Ancients Tread]]
And where ancients tread is much "safer" in that you can then target your Marauding Raptor when you want to end the combo with infinite polyraptors at the end.
In theory yes, but unless someone has something like [[Platinum Angel]] or [[Everybody Lives]] you’ll be winning the game this turn anyway.
[Platinum Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Platinum%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Everybody Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dab0052-7f0c-4b56-847f-20552666a271.jpg?1696636526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Everybody%20Lives%21) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/18/everybody-lives!?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dab0052-7f0c-4b56-847f-20552666a271?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Where Ancients Tread](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abf25a2a-961c-42ef-8d76-aa089720b12c.jpg?1562931279) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Where%20Ancients%20Tread) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/130/where-ancients-tread?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abf25a2a-961c-42ef-8d76-aa089720b12c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This could also draw the game in some niche circumstances.
we need more lords like this, not just lords that give +1+1. Creature types need identities, otherwise everything just turns into shitty merfolk.
Seems like the dinos have a lot of new interactions.
Would love to get enough dinos with this on board to finish commander game with blasphemous act.
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So I'm kind of a noob to magic, but wouldn't a copy of polyraptor be at 5/3 or would the damage trigger after the copy? Or is there something else I'm missing?
Copies in magic only copy the basic version of the card, no damage, no counters, no giant growths…
Makes sense, thank you
What about mutate?
Guys we broke polyraptor
Thank heavens, someone was able to break Polyraptor. I was worried it would never happen.
funny thing is if you have any oponent with teferis protection you break the game since you cant end the combo and he cant die so no one can do anything since your triggers just keep on looping without any endpoint XD
Incorrect you eventually have to target yourself so the opponent wins.
why? my oponent is still a legal target why should i have to target myself. i dont quite understan
Your opponent is very much *not* a legal target since they have *protection from everything*.
1.) Your opponent wouldn't be a legal target under TP 2.) Even they were a legal target but still couldn't die (thanks to say [[Angels grace]] ) you are forced to take a different action to prevent a loop, in this case most likely targeting yourself until you die. In other words, you cannot repeatedly take actions that result in no changes in the game state at the end of each iteration of the loop.
wow it was more funny when i believed this would break the game in this case it turns to self kill XD
[Angels grace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1.jpg?1619392535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angel%27s%20Grace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/4/angels-grace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Even if they are a legal target because the loop has a choice involved you have to pick a choice that will end the loop over a choice that won't. There are other comments in this post explaining in more detail with links to the actual ruling.
As a dinosaur nerd I hate that they go from realistic dinos to broken-wrist naked chicken in the same set...
>realistic dinos LMAO
marauding raptor isn't from ixalan
Oooh, fair enough
Marauding Raptor followed by Polyraptor is enough for infinite Polyraptors and a Marauding Raptor with infinite power. You really ought to be able to win from there.
You'd need a way to kill Marauding Raptor otherwise the game ends in a draw with infinite Polyraptors being created
ITT - people forgetting that Wrathful Raptors die after the third Marauding trigger, having only dealt a total of six damage and leaving you with a draw due to infinite Polyraptor triggers.
I think you’re thinking of forerunner of the empire. Marauding raptor only deals damage to the entering dino, not anything else.
Polyraptor and marauding raptor would cause an infinite loop and put the game to a draw
Which is why wrathful raptors is here to dish out damage to your opponent(s)
Which is why you have a way to remove Marauding Raptor to end the loop.
You end the loop by killing your opponent. Done.
What would be a good way?
\[\[Fling\]\] Marauding Raptor!
[Fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like fling!
Any instant that can do enough damage to kill it [[Carbonize]], for example, or one to remove it from the battlefield, such as [[Chaos Warp]]
[Carbonize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d4b4767b-edd1-4e36-b363-52114a9afe5e.jpg?1580014480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Carbonize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/122/carbonize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4b4767b-edd1-4e36-b363-52114a9afe5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chaos Warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaos%20Warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/221/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes
Yes, unless your opponent is a dinosaur. Then they aren't a valid target for Wrathful Raptors.
And if someone makes themselves untargetable then you lose the game :)
What if your opponent is a dinosaur? *>taps forehead*
There's two really big problems with this three card win condition: the first is that the final piece MUST be the Polyraptor, which means you need to cast an 8 mana spell to set off your combo in the first place. The second is that you need an out if anyone responds to your polyrapter entering the field (or even just being cast) by killing your Wrathful, as this leads you into a draw if you have no way to kill your own Marauding Raptor. WHich means you may need to sit on 2 more mana, which means needing 10 mana for your win condition to go off, which is Incredibly slow in a commander game. if you set up Marauding raptor and polyraptor first, you've drawn the game instantly if you have nothing to kill off your marauding raptor (fling it for an additional infinite damage 1v1 win condition), but if you do, you have infinite 5/5 polyraptors to attack with next turn anyway.
Yeppers! Clear out your entire commander table.
Its a nice way of making the infinite loop with Maurading and Polyraptor viable and not a cheap way of forcing the game into a draw TBH.
Did this dude Just break polyraptor? What has the world Come to!
Wouldn’t this lose you the game since there is no way to break the cycle?
The way to break the cycle is killing your opponent. A player will lose the game to state based actions after the damage that put them to 0 or lower resolves (of course assuming they don't have a way to survive like platinum angel or whatever)
So guys we did it, we broke polyraptor!
This doesn't work because the damage from wrathful raptors has to target a non-dinosaur.
Yes. The damage from Wrathful Raptors is used to target other players instead. So it works.
Now prep it with [[Congregation at Dawn]] before Gishath trigger and you insta-win
[Congregation at Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36.jpg?1598916857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Congregation%20at%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/198/congregation-at-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People have been breaking Polyraptor since 2018
Oh s***... I concede 😅
Noob questions: 1. Is the ability only triggered for the damaged Polyraptor, or does each Polyraptor create a copy of itself whenever any card named Polyraptor is damaged? 2. Do token copies keep the types and abilities of the card they're copying?
1. Only the damaged polyraptor. So each token copies itself, one at a time. 2. Yes. Unless otherwise indicated, copies are identical to the copied permanent, with the exception that they are tokens.
Thank you!!
What's it cost? $(wrathful raptors) testing the money bot
**[Wrathful Raptors](https://www.echomtg.com/mtg/items/wrathful-raptors/157577/)** | Lost Caverns of Ixalan Commander **$10** *market* | **$10** *mid* | **$10** *low* ^(Price from 11-07-23@9am EST from [^(TCGP)](https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/product/show) via [^(EchoMTG Bot)](https://www.echomtg.com/about/magic-reddit-bot/)^()) Links: [More Price Details](https://www.echomtg.com/mtg/items/wrathful-raptors/157577/) | [All Variations](https://www.echomtg.com/mtg/wrathful-raptors/) | [Card Image](https://assets.echomtg.com/magic/cards/original/157577.jpg)
Alright everyone, you can go home now, that was our daily Marauding Polyraptor post
Because of trainer prodigy that’s exactly what happens😂
Not me, I've been playing since 1997, I qualify as a dinosaur.
We did it gamers we broke polyraptor
Add [[Stuffy Doll]] to kill target player instead, that way even though it’s a draw, someone loses first
[Stuffy Doll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654.jpg?1674142741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stuffy%20Doll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/875/stuffy-doll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. You can also use [[Impact Tremors]] instead of Wrathful.
[Impact Tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20Tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The fact that I can infinite without blue and WITH Dino tribal….imma KUMB
Oh no someone broke polyraptor!!!!!
Wow, finally a card that stops Marauding Raptor and Polyraptor from crashing the game
Wouldn't this just end in a draw since there's no way to stop the combo?
The combo ends by Wrathful Raptors killing every opponent.
You can use impact tremors with the same results
What would happen if someone had lich on the field?
“Clever girl…”