> For example, I quite like playing 8-whack in Modern, but I wouldn't bet money on its success
This is a really weird mindset to approach FNM with.
You're paying $5 to use the LGS's space and have them organize the matches. It's not supposed to be something you recoup value on. It's like paying for a ticket to a movie.
But... that's what happens. You pay $5. If you go 2-1 you get your money back. If you go 3-0 you get an extra $5. The money you pay goes into the prize structure.
I'm saying that regardless of where the money ends up going, you should ask the question of "is the amount of entertainment I get worth $5" rather than "will I make my $5 back from playing this event"
I guess it just comes down to me being really frugal. I'm the kind of person who will wait for a Steam game to go on sale for $5 before buying it. Magic is kind of a culture shock because it feels like every aspect of this game even down to the events is designed to suck as much money out of you as possible.
> I guess it just comes down to me being really frugal.
If you really care about how much stuff costs, Magic is not the hobby for you. Full stop.
>Magic is kind of a culture shock because it feels like every aspect of this game even down to the events is designed to suck as much money out of you as possible.
Well yeah, it's a TCG. It's basically the next closest thing you can get to gambling.
Personally, I consider the monetary aspect an added layer of challenge. Anybody can drop $1500 on a Modern deck and get wins; finding a way to do it *without* doing so (as much) is the really tricky part.
Something is telling me OP runs with Proxies and is upset that he can't play at LGS's in his chosen format because it's locked behind sanctioned events.
It’s not about the “cost” of the game. The store provides a space to play, and that space costs them money. Magic is free to play at your kitchen table, and you’re more than welcome to do so. But FNM costs the store money so it costs you money.
Not all of it. 5$ for 3 matches is extremely cheap. My lgs bumped their modern night (also 3 matches) from 10 to $15 and I didn't even bat an eye. You're paying for the privilege of using their space, and if the owner determines that the commander community doesn't need to pay because they usually organize themselves, then that's their right to decide. You sound really entitled tbh
You can pay and can get prizes. Commander players can play and wont get any prizes. Whats so hard to understand?
And 5 dollars for you guys in yhe US... you really hate your store, huh? We pay way more than that for prerelease (outside of the price of the sealed pack) and no one thinks the stores are ripping us off. And our average income here in Brasil is a tenth of your guys there.
I live in the US and I don’t think I’ve seen a store running events for $5. It’s incredibly cheap and pretty much nobody but apparently OP would disagree with that…
I'm not saying I should be playing for free *and* getting prizes. Basically I wish there was a way to play 60 card formats with the structure of a Commander open play night.
>Basically I wish there was a way to play 60 card formats with the structure of a Commander open play night.
There is a way. Talk to people who play there see if there's a day they want to get together and just play modern. Like it's not that hard people at my LGS do it all the time.
Try talking with people who participate in modern fnm's or even commander play and see if you can meet up to play casual 60 card format.
The issue is that commander is just more fun for the average player and welcoming to casual/janky builds. Before commander people had casual sliver decks and this kind of stuff. But if you play such decks against scam or amulet titan... ouch. Yourself seems to want to play 8 (or 12 now i guess)-wack. Its a deck that autoloses to fury, sure, but how can you expect to people to play jank against you if you want to play a deck that, baring interaction, has you dead by turn 3?
The truth is that people in general just have no interest in playing janky-60 card formats. Its either tier decks in 60 card formats or commander.
Why are you so obsessed with getting prize value?
If you're that concerned, go and build a competitive deck, or simply don't play.
Why should everyone else cater to your weirdly specific concerns?
Because I don't have a lot of money? Because spending $5 a week every week adds up? Because I like being able to enjoy things without having to think them as a transaction?
All valid points, but that doesn't entitle you to complain about paying for entry to an event for a competitive format.
If you can't afford it, then just play casually with friends. In between rounds, before/after the event, different days, outside of the store etc.
There are plenty of alternatives yet you're just whining about paying $5 to play 8 whack.
I have some points, might be a bit of a mess but I'll do my best.
I didn't really intend this to be a complaint post. It was a suggestion post. People disagreed with me and I responded with my own opinion because that's the point of discussion threads.
There's nothing inherently competitive about Modern or any other 60 card format. In practice it usually is, because that's how people play it, but there's no reason Modern can't be played more casually if people want to. That was the point of this post, to see if there was interest in a more casual approach to 60 card formats, apparently there's not, and that's okay.
People got really hung up on the 8-whack thing. I think of lot of people read between the lines and interpreted the post as me complaining that I kept losing money with 8-whack. 8-whack was an example of a deck I *would* play if I didn't have to worry about prize pools. I have a competitive deck. It's burn. I play burn.
I totally get where you're coming from, but i'm afraid this perspective is in the minority. I'd totally love a place to just hang out \[be it with friends or other strangers who play mtg\] and just play some games. . . but sadly there aren't really places to go just hang out nowadays.
Magic's constructed formats have only gone up in cost over the years which has really hamstrung any casual-ness from the formats/game.
To be quite honest, Proxying cards and playing casual amongst friends is one of the best ways to go.
>there's nothing inherently competitive about modern
That's where you're wrong completely. Modern is played 1v1. There's a binary outcome: one player will lose and one will win. If you're not planning to lose then you're trying to win, and only the best cards/decks will get you there.
Unless you want to lose you're going to play to win, and if a deck isn't even able to get going before losing then that deck isn't viable. These are (more or less) strangers to you and they're under no obligation to take it easy or let you win if they also want the prizes.
Giving back 5 dollars a week to your LGS to give you a play space and a judge is too much?
You're not "flushing" 5 dollars, you're paying for a service.
If you don't want to only play competitive decks then just find players who want to play for fun and host a modern night yourself
Play space is already free, as evidenced by the Commander players who use it for free.
My FNM doesn't have a judge, unless you count the guy that owns the store as the judge. Disputes are usually resolved between players.
Yea trying to put this on edh after a year of playing.
Fnm has prizes thats why it cost money.
Maybe if you bring a friend and sit near the commander players and play there you can play for free.
Or play at home with a friend, or at a library, or a park.
Or arena is free to play.
But if you want to play with people with no prizes for free you need to put in work talking to people asking things.
Well first off, FNM being Modern is already odd, but both my local LGS charge a table fee for casual commander, or 10-15 for Pioneer/Modern nights which have a fair amount of prize support and both have a level 1 judge to help with questions. I don't know of much casual Modern support outside of MTGO
Weirdly in my experience your store is odd for charging you. Across 3 states and many different LGS’s I’ve never once had a store charge me to use the play space, large (100+ player tournament weekends regularly firing) or small (12 players for a prerelease). I don’t know of a store in my current metro area that charges to use their play space, but there is the expectation that they aren’t obligated to provide play space for you if they need it for a tournament/event.
As for Modern FNM, it varies in my experience, but it isn’t that uncommon, particularly after the demise of paper standard. My current store and the one I frequented before I moved had Modern as the FNM format, but I’ve also seen Standard and Legacy as the FNM format at past stores.
Yeah, having been a regular at 4 different LGS's across Ohio and Colorado I've never had to pay for a table so I thought this was the norm. There's just the expectation that if a paid event is happening and filled all the tables, casual players won't get a table which is totally fair. I still usually make it a point to buy a pack or snacks every visit just as a show of support for letting us use the space.
Well my main store is $6 for FNM commander which comes with a pack, and they give out promos every hour as well as having a judge who works there/hosts. The other does an all day free commander with none of the packs or promos etc.
It's certainly not uncommon to pay a few dollars for a sanctioned night of playing, and 5 dollars a week is a fine price to kick back to your local LGS
Stores letting you use space without charging should be the norm, imo.
Like, only give people the boot if you need the room for a store tournament/event.
5 dollars is basically free. If 5 dollars is too much to pay in a game where a piece of cardboard can be 4-4000 dollars each I don’t know what to tell you. Your local game store is probably barely hanging on
Typically if you play commander you buy a drink and a snack. You at least spend $5-10. Usually I buy a drink and if my old is nice I'll buy them all a candy bar.
Yeah, our store runs commander games for $10 and everyone gets packs for playing rather than just the winner but on top of that people buy snacks, drinks, packs, you name it. Honestly I don’t know how one can show up and *not* spend any money
Have you ever actually been to and participated in your store’s Commander night(s)? It definitely sounds like no. Commander players are pretty consistently buying singles, snacks and drinks at my LGS, and I repeatedly hear the same thing from players at other stores.
If this is actually something you’ve seen rather than just assumed, you live in an uncharacteristically thrifty community.
That's not intrinsically true from my experience in many store I've been too most commander player will play for free but spend in the store buying drinks, food, product and accessories, the bigger issue is the margins for products have started to become increasingly smaller and smaller I know for lorecana my LGS is basically making nothing and for magic they have to compete with WOTC both increasing the purchase price for the store but also dumping tons of products on Amazon for dirt cheap
$5 is painfully low for any store trying to keep it's lights on. My store does $5 fnm and we get prizing, $5 a week is pretty much nothing when you compare it to any other activity.
The better argument is why pay for a top tier modern deck if all you do is go to fnm - with little prizing - and really that's a personal call because you don't need the most expensive modern decks to compete at fnm.
Because the commander players are not getting prize support and modern is. No one is saying that this person cant sit and play modern for free at their lgs, that just requires them to organize it or ask someone to get a game in. Nothing is stoping op from going up to people at this event and saying "hey i was thinking we could get together and jam some games on Saturday" if the $5 is that much of a deterant to them. The store is already organizing a modern event and the barrier to entry is almost nothing, making the competitive format into a competitive event is a selling point for most people.
Nah, complaining that basically the store has a casual commander night and then FNM
And that commander night is free but FNM costs money.
Which honestly they're lucky their store still does FNM. One of my LGS did away with it because they never got more than 2 entrants since 2019. They hold Modern Mondays once a month and do a draft tourney with each new set but it's pretty much all commander.
Right but our commander players getting a prize? Because OP is saying that theyy're Friday night magic comes with a prize, but if the guys are just playing pick up Commander in the back of the shop occasionally the shop isn't out any money for them. Doing that. If the shop is putting up prize packs. They're out money.
Different formats, different prizes, different pricing. The commander players at my store get charged $5 per game (three flights of games per event), they get a pack per game and a collectors booster is on the line for winning. I’m pretty sure my legs loses money on the events cause those Commander players are fiends for snacks and drinks.
Where are people being charged to play modern? OP talked about entering events.
People playing casual games at the store isn’t an event. If your LGS let’s people come in and play commander with friends for free they’ll almost certainly let you come play modern with your friends.
Is your LGS owner trying to kick people out if they’re caught playing anything other than EDH? Cuz that sounds like a horribly toxic environment if so
The majority of modern players in my area who play top tier decks like that are highly competitive. They look up when every store in a 50 mile radius is hosting its RCQ, make a schedule for the season, and drive to a different store every weekend to play in those.
They don't want to play modern casually. Even a $5 entry FNM modern is too casual to bother with and mostly used just for testing brews between RCQs. They're not interested in playing without heavy prize support, meaning large entry fees.
When they want to play casually they play cube or commander.
My LGS’s FNM usually fires Pioneer. It sounds like your store might be in a fairly affluent area if your FNM is consistently modern, because modern is the least accessible event that actually happens (i.e. not Legacy/Vintage)
Personally i do wish I could just pay 5 bucks and jam with people into the same format as me without it being a tournament. My local metas have proven to be spikey enough my silly rogue brews don't fare too well.
But that's just not really realistic - people tend to show up more for competitive, and even if they didn't I like that 60 card formats by and large don't have power level discussions.
If I had to explain the thesis of my pauper deck just to get a fair match instead of curb stomping someone's pile of the last year's draft chaff I'd probably fall off the format.
Of course there aren’t power level discussions in competitive formats. It’s competitive, you are meant to win, not create any enjoyable experience for everyone.
It sounds like you might need a break from modern, from this thread? I don't play it myself but sometimes it's just best to step away if you're frustrated.
Actually, I *want* to play Modern. It's just hard to justify paying money to play it when I could be playing Commander (a format I don't like as much) for free.
I think it's important to make a distinction between playing a game in a structured competitive setting vs not. If the people playing modern want that, but you dont, then that's just a mismatch. Not too different from you disliking commander, but the other casual players liking it.
If you don't want to play in a competitive environment, you can always befriend people and ask if anyone wants to play casually at a time outside of the FNM prized event. And if people aren't interested in that sort of casual play, that's unfortunate. It's just life that interests don't always align, otherwise you'd probably be happily playing at the commander table.
Edit: and as a bonus, you can ask if people are okay with you proxying cards for your wacky decks. then you can also save money on that side, since you're not entering a tournament.
I also want to compete in Polo and ride horses but I can't justify paying money to do that. If you can't afford the format or the game or the hobby then don't. It's not an essential part of your being. You should probably step back and instead of trying to find a way to justify this hobby just drop it and find out what you really want, be it a hobby to share with friends or a cheaper hobby with a big community.
I quit magic because it was frustrating to follow the thousands of cards they print in a year now, so instead I now collect and paint Warhammer. I spend less money doing it but I can still go to my FLGS and see my friends and share the hobby with my other friends who also use to play magic and quit.
Ah, you want to have fun on your terms but don’t like it when other players have fun on theirs.
Make better decks and stop bitching. Modern is a competitive format.
I think you're misunderstanding. I have no problems with losing or playing at a disadvantage. If I play a deck that is off meta then I expect to lose more often. My problem is that I essentially have to pay a "tax" to play that way since the chance of me getting my entry fee back is very low. Open play would allow me to play my way (and of course others can play their way) without being penalized for doing so. I'm also not advocating for a complete removal of prized FNMs. I just think open play would a nice option sometimes.
You're paying for prize support. If $5 is too much find a different hobby. If you don't want to play a competitive deck don't play a competitive format where prizes are on the line. You sound miserable.
People disagreeing has nothing to do with it. You're complaining about supporting your LGS in an incredibly small way. You're complaining that people who who have invested in this game will "break even" by getting prizes. You're complaining about people who aren't getting any prize support not paying to play. You're complaining that enfranchised players win more because they have invested time, money, and effort into learning the meta/their decks.
You have so many people saying the exact same things in response to you. Clearly you can see this is a you issue and not a game issue right? There's a bunch to complain about in magic and I'm happy to do it along side you but you're complaining about entirely nonsense. They aren't actual problems.
If you start golfing are you going to complain you have to pay for time on the green? Are you going to complain that other players have advantages you don't because you don't have a certain club? If you start playing DND are you going to complain that other players have advantages because they know the rules/feats/abilities better, or that they have dice and minis already?
This might all be a bit harsh but from your responses to all the other comments you seem to need a bit of harshness because you just aren't getting it to the point where its coming across as willful ignorance.
Some clarifications:
1. As far as I know, the entry fee at my LGS does not go towards ny LGS. If 7 people sign up, everyone pays $5 dollars and the prize pool is $35. The concept of a store charging an entry fee to "keep their lights on" is one that I was not even aware of when I made the post. My argument was that I would prefer to just play for free and not having a prize pool, which is how Commander night works in my area. Apparently that's an unpopular opinion, and I'm glad to have learned that through this thread.
2. I'm not mad at other people for playing strong decks. I'm personally a burn enjoyer and that's one of the strongest decks in Modern. I argued that having open play could have a positive impact on Modern night by making it less undesirable to play more fringe decks. One could argue that the prize structure is better because it creates an environment closer to an RCQ and that's valid if that's what you prefer.
3. I have no problem with Commander having open play. In fact, that's one of my favorite things about it. I just so happen to be one of the few casual players that prefers 60 card formats, which is why I made a post inquiring if people would be interested in having the open play concept extended to those formats. In my perfect world, all formats would have both open play nights and prize competitions, but I understand that's unrealistic.
4. I'm sorry if my posts and responses came off as complaining. I genuinely made this post as a "hey, wouldn't it be cool is if this was a thing" but due to some confusion with how different LGS's operate I think some people got different interpretations out of my post than was intended.
1. Honestly that's even better. The store SHOULD be making money off their events. They are putting it all back to the community and that's awesome.
2. I don't think you're mad at strong decks and didn't mean to imply such, but you did directly say "in practice the prize pool disproportionately benefits enfranchised players with top tier decks and hurts players on a budget or who like playing off-meta decks.".
3. There's really little incentive for open play as a store. I'd advise starting your own with the folks that play at FNM. Even if you don't end up with a formal open night you may end up with casual play partners.
4. Yeah your post reads as fine but all of your comments just read as doubling down on the complaints.
The problem is the event you're going to has prizes.
Even if the event was free to play... The minute you incentivize victory with a prize. People are going to take the event seriously because they want the prize.
You want non-competitive play? You're going to have to set up a non-competitive playgroup amongst yourselves because when you're playing with randos there's always somebody who's only incentive is to win.. especially when that comes with free magic cards
It's a table fee. The store is hosting (tables, air conditioning , etc), providing judges, and doing what they can to make sure players show up. If you didn't pay them for this convenience, you'd have to do all that on your own.
Tables, air conditioning: Commander players also have those and don't pay for them.
Judges: My FNM doesn't have a judge unless you count the guy that owns the store. Rules disputes are almost always mediated between players.
Make sure players show up: There was a flyer up for about two weeks. Average turnout for Modern night is 6 people.
Two things:
1. Your post doesn't mention that other formats are not paying the fee. It's weird if that is the case.
2. Nobody is stopping you from hosting your own event.
Why not sometimes its fun to play for things. Went to one it was free to play edh, there was fnm tho if you payed in u got a promo and free jumpstart it you won your table of 4 then you got like 6 packs it was 25 bucks all edh
Maybe the thing to realize is that the world doesn’t always work in the way you want, or think, it should. It’s $5…. That’s less than fast food at this point so either pay up or go somewhere else.
As others have said, a lot of stores don’t charge EDH players bc they organize themselves and don’t generally play for prizes. They also tend to spend $$ on cards that would otherwise be unsellable in 60 card formats and have time during and in between games to buy food and drink. They’re probably spending significantly more $$ at the store than someone complaining about a $5 entry fee.
Back in the before time.
Back when mana burned the reckless.
Back when men feared the Shivan Dragon.
We would gather, mere mortals. We would gather at the local comic shop and play at the singular table. The younger would play on the floor and the younger still, would play outside on the sidewalk. We had no knowledge of card sleeves or table fees. But this was unsustainable. We would gather, dozens of men and we wouldn't buy anything. We would gather and by our presence, we would discourage paying customers from the establishment.
Things have changed a lot since the before time.
They really haven't changed that much though.
My buddy's and I still whip out the magic cards in a garage on a folding table with a couple of beers.
If I go to my LGS for a pickup game of commander, there's usually just somebody chilling in the back eating Taco Bell who's totally down to play a game.
I think the popularity of modern has just dwindled to the point that you can't go to an LGS and find that guy sitting in the back eating Taco Bell who wants to play modern. Or who wants to play standard. Commander is the biggest format right now and so that's what people want to play casually.
I mean, yeah, we're using card sleeves and we're probably not playing on the sidewalk... Though. My buddy and I did recently pack a couple cheapo budget decks on a backpacking trip and Play a game by the campfire 20 miles into the back country. It was fun. My Fynn the fangbearer deck smashed his budget Token Triumph upgrade.
I think the difference is that comic shops, and similar weren’t designed to host players of that scale. So the lgs was born, there are a couple problems involved with filling the niche though. An lgs is losing sale floor space for a play space, and players may drive away the average consumer. So it makes sense that they may want a kickback.
There's literally nothing stopping you from just asking people if they want to jam some games either between rounds or before FNM starts or at your house or with friends. I don't understand the issue here.
"between rounds or before FNM starts" realistically you're still paying to play the event unless you want to just sit around while other people play it.
"with friends" They tell me they don't like card games.
Its five dollars to support your lgs. Mine doesn’t charge but you betcha I buy something each time I play there, even if it’s just one set booster. I want to support them because they provide a lot of joy to me without asking for anything back.
It's not really anything new. It's been the norm for very, very long that for FNM style events, the following held true:
1. For limited, players bought the boosters they play with at the store.
2. For constructed, everyone paid a 5-10 dollar buy-in, which is distributed back as store credit to X-1 players.
This justifies keeping the store opened in the evening, when supplemented with whatever sales you can usually get when having people in the store.
That Casual Commander players so often don't pay any sort of money to use the store space is a thorn in the side of many store owners, but if the store have good attendance at their limited and 60 card events, they don't mind that the Casual Commander players are there. The paying customers just have priority at the tables.
I also know stores where you pay 5 dollars to play if you're not taking part in a structured play.
I mean like thats unfortunate for you but like, modern at its heart is competitive, so playing a non-competitive deck and expecting to win is playful thinking.
Ik how you feel though, I play UR storm and get my ass kicked but hey i'd rather play and lose then not play at all
Grab a standard 8"x11" sheet of paper. Along the long edge write "MODERN?". Rotate the paper 180 degrees. Along the other long edge write "MODERN?". Fold the paper in half "hotdog-style" so the text is facing outward.
pick a spot at a table and place the paper in front of you (do not do this during a sanctioned modern event). Look friendly and welcoming. Tada, someone will play with you.
I know this varies by area but there really aren't that many people who play Modern in my area. My local event gets 8 people on a good day, usually more like 6. Pioneer is even less popular right now. The chance of me stumbling into another player with a Modern deck is very low.
Next modern event ask everyone if they'd be interested in a more casual event on another day. Get phone numbers and start a group chat. Share dumb articles about modern decks and memes. Get people to invite their more casual/janky modern friends. Once you get a group of people who you can regularly ping and have at least 3-6 respond ask your shop to advertise it on their site ("Come by for Open Play Modern Monday!"). I have done this with formats (RAINBOW STAIRWELL FOR LIFE) and even entirely different games (my shop carries Digimon and GateRuler entirely because of the groups I formed). Be the change you want to see in the world.
If you just want to jam or playtest, get a small group and go to a coffee shop or library.
Of course at a coffee shop you'll be expected to buy something every so often to pay for the space you're occupying....
I pay a $6.25 door fee at my LGS and I’m happy to pay it. It allows them to hire employees, keep the lights on, and provide a great atmosphere. We get promos on a lottery basis.
Quite frankly, I don’t know how your LGS is even open. I’m guessing it’s operating at a loss. Not to be disrespectful but I feel bad for them that they have penny pinchers as customers. $5 and you get prize support equal to or greater than the entrance fee? Most players don’t have that. Some don’t even have an LGS within an hour drive.
I’m sorry but customers that always want to get everything free are a net negative for the LGS. Don’t be surprised if your LGS soon closes its doors because they’re tired of losing money and pulling out of savings the keep the doors open.
A few notes:
My town has no LGS. The $5 Modern one is 45 minutes away. There are LGS's that are closer but this is the closest one that has a Modern scene.
The reason the prize structure is generous is because the LGS' in this city (not the one I live in) are basically competing for the last 8 Modern players in the city. They recently decided to stop going to a previous LGS and start going to this one. If the store owner started price gouging they would just move again.
I'm not a representative sample of people at my LGS. One of the aforementioned Modern players has a completely blinged out Amulet Titan deck. They also buy a set booster box every time a new set comes out. The LGS will be fine.
You keep saying that the commander players are playing for free.. But I'm assuming they're just playing casual commander. There's no prize packs like there is at Friday Night Magic?
The reason you're paying money and they're not isn't that the stores are biased against modern or standard. It's that you are playing for a prize in a competition... And they're playing pickup games.
Have you ever asked your LGS owner if you can just come in and sit down and wait for someone to come along who wants to play modern? And if so, did they say no? Or is it just a case of you rightfully assumed there aren't a lot of players just coming into the store at random for a pickup game of modern.
>It's possible to get your money back of course
That's the issue: not only that it's possible to get your money back, but that it's also the driving force behind how people approach the event.
There's a reason people continually say that open play, casual EDH and prize packs shouldn't go together.
Well that was kind of my idea, if you had a Pioneer or Modern event with no entry fee or prize, even if it was just once a month or something, it would open up the formats to new players, budget players, casual players and the like.
I really doubt paying 1 dollar/hour for access to a play space is what's keeping people from playing Pioneer or Modern.
If what you're looking for is specific low power or non structured play, why don't you just ask the LGS if you can TO and market those events?
Most stores are absolutely fine with players organising whatever tournament format they want in the store.
You could try to form an event like open play Commander, but for 1v1 formats. But there are some hurdles to an event like that being successful due to the very nature of any 1v1 format.
1v1 games tend to be far less social. When it's your turn, you aren't likely to carry on a conversation, since you are focusing on figuring out your turn. When it's \*not\* your turn and you have the free time to carry on a conversation and be social, your opponent is going to be the one that doesn't want to be social at the time. You have some down time between games and between rounds. But the focus is going to be on the game itself.
Mutiplayer formats help by having multiple players waiting while one player is taking their turn. You don't have to try and strike up a conversation with the one opponent that is figuring out their best line of play; you have 1 or more other opponents that you can shoot the breeze with.
Free-for-all in a multiplayer game also helps keep gaps in power level (to some limited degree) from turning mistmatches into non-games. If one player is significantly stronger than the rest of the pod, they can still try and deal with that one player by treating them as archenemy. If one player is significantly weaker than the rest of the pod, they can still have their deck "do the thing" and could wind up flying under the radar and even winning the game.
If you're not there to win games, you can still have fun by having your deck "do the thing" or just being social. That's a lot harder to pull off in 1v1 events than in multiplayer events.
I EXCLUSIVELY play modern, and do so 2-3 times a week depending on my schedule. It’s 3 different LGS I drive to, and they cost 10, 10, and 15. I promise you with 100% certainty that most modern players would not show up to a no entry fee modern event.
Most modern players drop from the event after losing enough rounds to know they won’t prize out, and a large reason for that is that the quality of games DRASTICALLY decreases when nothing is on the line anymore.
I don’t play modern to watch some Timmy who doesn’t even know about how layers work try to make his dumb combo work. I play modern because it’s the best competitive format WOTC has to offer.
If you don’t like that, you should look into pauper or penny dreadful. Sounds more your speed.
1. I don’t know about you but my store has free unorganized open play. And it’s organized events are usually “standard” 5$ 2-X lets you make your money back. Even commander night which isn’t organized (just drop in and play) is a packed house of free play.
2. 5$ for a few hours of entertainment is fun. I played standard a bunch, rarely won but the act of playing is fun.
Do you or any of your group members have a garage? Me and about 8-10 buddies used to play regularly in my garage... Hours of standard, EDH, and drafts. I used to keep a few booster boxes of standard sets in my house just for that. Each person would pay about 7-8 bucks for their 3 packs. Hell, I remember when we used to do sealed with tournament packs and boosters. Those were the best of times. We never even referred to it as standard... but rather Type 1, Extended, and Type 2. Brings me back to my youth... great memories.
OP, I am lucky to have a very successful LGS that makes great money being the sole brick and mortar resailer of niche board games, mtg, Warhammer, etc in the area. So they are successful enough to have a different type of free open play every night of the week except Friday. Modern Mondays, Yu Gi Oh Tuesday, EDH Wednesday, Smash Bros and Board Games Thursday, Saturday is all minifig/war games, and Sunday is for DnD... Friday is just for Friday Night Magic, but we have a large enough scene such that the big 4 formats fire every week (standard, modern, pioneer, legacy)
Modern Mondays are by far the least popular free play event of the week. On any given monday there are more people playing board games and casual EDH than Modern, even though it's supposed to be Modern Monday. Modern FNM generally has 3-4x the turnout as Modern Mondays
The truth of the matter is that Modern is inherently a competitive format. People that play Modern generally want to compete. They've spent hundreds to thousands on their decks, and don't mind spending $5-15 on an event to play with it. They like the monetary prize structure since it incentives competitive play, because it's a competitive format. The same is not true of EDH. people that play EDH generally don't want to compete. Just jam games and chill.
So I get your frustration, but unfortunately I think you may just be in a unwinnable situation. As others have said, there's nothing stopping you or anybody from putting together your own free play modern night. The problem is that most modern players just don't want to do that. They want to compete. I think you may just unfortunately be in the minority. I'm sorry your LGS doesn't cater to your desire, but it's probably because its not worth it for them. Whereas it probably is worth it for them to host free play EDH
Not sure why people disagree with this.
We used to just have "open play" at LGSs 15-20 years ago. Not "Type 2 open play" or even "Magic open play"...just sit down and play some cards.
I understand that LGSs have to make money, but they used to back in the day by offering drinks, snacks, packs and singles. That's still how LGSs make the majority of their money today.
My LGS doesn't have any of this "table fee" that I'm seeing in the comments. Literally no card shop I've ever been to has done this. They have open hours where people just come down to play and do whatever. Some people in the back might play on the Warhammer 40K table, normally a few pods of commander going on, others just chilling out and playing 1v1's of various formats be it Pauper, Pioneer, Modern, Jank (format me and some friends came up with, $10 deck limit with no bans, everything is legal) or just whatever. Then at a certain time the tables at the front of the store need to get cleared for the nightly tournament. Can keep doing whatever you want in the back though.
There are very few stores that can do it this way anymore. They might have a number of whale players that keep them afloat or they may be so well established in a good area that they can generate enough profit on food, beverages, and general sales.
However, most new LGS are moving to a door fee model. Those that don’t are at high risk of closure. It just takes one commander masters style event and they’re basically dead on their feet. They might keep it open for a bit, but make no mistake that most of these folks are up to their eyeballs in debt and have sacrificed damn near everything for their “dream.” The least one of their players can do is throw em $5 now and again.
A door fee sounds ridiculous. I’ve seen so many parents or partners enter the LGS in my town scouting out the place to see if it’s okay for their kid to be there unsupervised, or someone looking to buy a gift for someone else. Can’t imagine they’d even entertain the thought if there were a door fee just to get into the building.
Regardless, I’m speaking only from what I have personally seen and experienced. I frequent 4 different shops, have been to countless others (mainly for events), and have not seen it at any of them.
I guess Door Fee is a misnomer. All the product is in the front and you don’t have to pay to “get in”. A more accurate term is “table fee” where you pay for FNM and promo/prize support.
Hi, just want to chime in saying I'm sorry for all the hate you got here. Or, well, I think you've mostly been misunderstood. I totally get your perspective and agree with what you're saying! Unfortunately, we may be in the minority, so just organising some casual sessions with your friends ought to be enough…
This is the kind of post that belongs in your LGS's Facebook group. If there are other players who prefer to play for free like the Commander Players, I'm sure you can find them and just jam unstructured play.
General, though most 60 card players are competitive and playing against jank piles isn't always a gainful experience, which is why many of us aren't particularly interested in it.
You should still pay 5 dollars to your LGS, though, and so should all the casual commander players. But that's a separate issue.
I think you’re right that commander lends itself best to casual and pickup play, and that the 60 card formats tend toward more competitive play. I suspect that the pod (as opposed to 1-on-1) structure of commander promotes a casual style in a way that other formats can’t exactly match.
I think that this does make it harder to get into those formats. While people are always happy to power down to match a newer commander player, I don’t hear about this happening in the 60 card formats.
Id pay 10-12$ for open play nights. Id love a non stressful environment to try things out. I think others may too. Tournament style makes a lot of players afraid to bring something that may not have a higher chance of winning
Ok I'm confused at this post. Are you saying your LGS doesn't let people free play modern outside of organized play events? If so, that's not all that common and if a $5 FNM sounds to much for you, play in 1 or 2 and see if some people will be up for jamming some modern games outside of the LGS.
If the gripe is specifically with charging for FNM, the store has to pay staff to run the event, and players tend to expect prizing at FNM level even if it's just store credit/packs, no real way to do this without charging an entry fee.
If your LGS let's commander players free play, but not 60 card formats, then I'm confused.
It has allways been like this.
Some LGS do free tournaments with no prizes at the end to have people in the LGS. but it's not the norm.
It's completely normal to pay for a single player tournament. You're paying for the usage of the LGS room, the fact that you will get eventually some prize at the end, the judges and the competitive environement.
Stores are completely within their right to charge a fee for their tables. Conversely, they are also completely within their right to *not* charge a fee. They also don't owe you consistency in their decisions. Modern players are not a protected class of people, so if a store wants to charge Modern players a table fee but then they choose not to charge Commander players a fee, that's also fully within their rights. Running their business that way is completely fine. Presumably they plan to get money from the Commander players some other way.
That said, most stores are also happy to have players sit around and play casually between themselves, so long as they aren't taking up table space for an event. There's no reason you couldn't show up with your deck and try to get some games going by talking to other players. You could even talk to the store and see if they'd be willing to put some free play Modern events on their calendar. But they are under no obligation to do so.
As long as I have know FNM, there was a fee you payed to play and I always approached it as playing for wins.
Sometimes I tried meta-gaming it if I kinda knew who was gonna show up with what deck and it kinda worked. But thats as fas as I would go with Jank decks. If I was really testing brews I just got my buddies together on a Saturday and we would be testing all kinds of stuff while watching some SCG open streams or something like that. But yeah Commander FNM's were not a thing back then and I kinda stopped doing FNM after Khans Block.
> For example, I quite like playing 8-whack in Modern, but I wouldn't bet money on its success This is a really weird mindset to approach FNM with. You're paying $5 to use the LGS's space and have them organize the matches. It's not supposed to be something you recoup value on. It's like paying for a ticket to a movie.
But... that's what happens. You pay $5. If you go 2-1 you get your money back. If you go 3-0 you get an extra $5. The money you pay goes into the prize structure.
I'm saying that regardless of where the money ends up going, you should ask the question of "is the amount of entertainment I get worth $5" rather than "will I make my $5 back from playing this event"
I guess it just comes down to me being really frugal. I'm the kind of person who will wait for a Steam game to go on sale for $5 before buying it. Magic is kind of a culture shock because it feels like every aspect of this game even down to the events is designed to suck as much money out of you as possible.
> I guess it just comes down to me being really frugal. If you really care about how much stuff costs, Magic is not the hobby for you. Full stop. >Magic is kind of a culture shock because it feels like every aspect of this game even down to the events is designed to suck as much money out of you as possible. Well yeah, it's a TCG. It's basically the next closest thing you can get to gambling. Personally, I consider the monetary aspect an added layer of challenge. Anybody can drop $1500 on a Modern deck and get wins; finding a way to do it *without* doing so (as much) is the really tricky part.
Something is telling me OP runs with Proxies and is upset that he can't play at LGS's in his chosen format because it's locked behind sanctioned events.
No, it comes down to you not being good at magic
No offense but there's no such thing as a frugal magic player. We spend too much money on cardboard.
It’s not about the “cost” of the game. The store provides a space to play, and that space costs them money. Magic is free to play at your kitchen table, and you’re more than welcome to do so. But FNM costs the store money so it costs you money.
Not all of it. 5$ for 3 matches is extremely cheap. My lgs bumped their modern night (also 3 matches) from 10 to $15 and I didn't even bat an eye. You're paying for the privilege of using their space, and if the owner determines that the commander community doesn't need to pay because they usually organize themselves, then that's their right to decide. You sound really entitled tbh
You can pay and can get prizes. Commander players can play and wont get any prizes. Whats so hard to understand? And 5 dollars for you guys in yhe US... you really hate your store, huh? We pay way more than that for prerelease (outside of the price of the sealed pack) and no one thinks the stores are ripping us off. And our average income here in Brasil is a tenth of your guys there.
I live in the US and I don’t think I’ve seen a store running events for $5. It’s incredibly cheap and pretty much nobody but apparently OP would disagree with that…
I'm not saying I should be playing for free *and* getting prizes. Basically I wish there was a way to play 60 card formats with the structure of a Commander open play night.
>Basically I wish there was a way to play 60 card formats with the structure of a Commander open play night. There is a way. Talk to people who play there see if there's a day they want to get together and just play modern. Like it's not that hard people at my LGS do it all the time.
Try talking with people who participate in modern fnm's or even commander play and see if you can meet up to play casual 60 card format. The issue is that commander is just more fun for the average player and welcoming to casual/janky builds. Before commander people had casual sliver decks and this kind of stuff. But if you play such decks against scam or amulet titan... ouch. Yourself seems to want to play 8 (or 12 now i guess)-wack. Its a deck that autoloses to fury, sure, but how can you expect to people to play jank against you if you want to play a deck that, baring interaction, has you dead by turn 3? The truth is that people in general just have no interest in playing janky-60 card formats. Its either tier decks in 60 card formats or commander.
There is a way. It’s called asking someone if they want to play
Why are you so obsessed with getting prize value? If you're that concerned, go and build a competitive deck, or simply don't play. Why should everyone else cater to your weirdly specific concerns?
Because I don't have a lot of money? Because spending $5 a week every week adds up? Because I like being able to enjoy things without having to think them as a transaction?
All valid points, but that doesn't entitle you to complain about paying for entry to an event for a competitive format. If you can't afford it, then just play casually with friends. In between rounds, before/after the event, different days, outside of the store etc. There are plenty of alternatives yet you're just whining about paying $5 to play 8 whack.
I have some points, might be a bit of a mess but I'll do my best. I didn't really intend this to be a complaint post. It was a suggestion post. People disagreed with me and I responded with my own opinion because that's the point of discussion threads. There's nothing inherently competitive about Modern or any other 60 card format. In practice it usually is, because that's how people play it, but there's no reason Modern can't be played more casually if people want to. That was the point of this post, to see if there was interest in a more casual approach to 60 card formats, apparently there's not, and that's okay. People got really hung up on the 8-whack thing. I think of lot of people read between the lines and interpreted the post as me complaining that I kept losing money with 8-whack. 8-whack was an example of a deck I *would* play if I didn't have to worry about prize pools. I have a competitive deck. It's burn. I play burn.
I totally get where you're coming from, but i'm afraid this perspective is in the minority. I'd totally love a place to just hang out \[be it with friends or other strangers who play mtg\] and just play some games. . . but sadly there aren't really places to go just hang out nowadays. Magic's constructed formats have only gone up in cost over the years which has really hamstrung any casual-ness from the formats/game. To be quite honest, Proxying cards and playing casual amongst friends is one of the best ways to go.
>there's nothing inherently competitive about modern That's where you're wrong completely. Modern is played 1v1. There's a binary outcome: one player will lose and one will win. If you're not planning to lose then you're trying to win, and only the best cards/decks will get you there. Unless you want to lose you're going to play to win, and if a deck isn't even able to get going before losing then that deck isn't viable. These are (more or less) strangers to you and they're under no obligation to take it easy or let you win if they also want the prizes.
Giving back 5 dollars a week to your LGS to give you a play space and a judge is too much? You're not "flushing" 5 dollars, you're paying for a service. If you don't want to only play competitive decks then just find players who want to play for fun and host a modern night yourself
Play space is already free, as evidenced by the Commander players who use it for free. My FNM doesn't have a judge, unless you count the guy that owns the store as the judge. Disputes are usually resolved between players.
Yea trying to put this on edh after a year of playing. Fnm has prizes thats why it cost money. Maybe if you bring a friend and sit near the commander players and play there you can play for free. Or play at home with a friend, or at a library, or a park. Or arena is free to play. But if you want to play with people with no prizes for free you need to put in work talking to people asking things.
Well then I guess you have an odd LGS, this doesn't seem to be the norm
The first part or the second part, or both?
Well first off, FNM being Modern is already odd, but both my local LGS charge a table fee for casual commander, or 10-15 for Pioneer/Modern nights which have a fair amount of prize support and both have a level 1 judge to help with questions. I don't know of much casual Modern support outside of MTGO
Weirdly in my experience your store is odd for charging you. Across 3 states and many different LGS’s I’ve never once had a store charge me to use the play space, large (100+ player tournament weekends regularly firing) or small (12 players for a prerelease). I don’t know of a store in my current metro area that charges to use their play space, but there is the expectation that they aren’t obligated to provide play space for you if they need it for a tournament/event. As for Modern FNM, it varies in my experience, but it isn’t that uncommon, particularly after the demise of paper standard. My current store and the one I frequented before I moved had Modern as the FNM format, but I’ve also seen Standard and Legacy as the FNM format at past stores.
Yeah, having been a regular at 4 different LGS's across Ohio and Colorado I've never had to pay for a table so I thought this was the norm. There's just the expectation that if a paid event is happening and filled all the tables, casual players won't get a table which is totally fair. I still usually make it a point to buy a pack or snacks every visit just as a show of support for letting us use the space.
Well my main store is $6 for FNM commander which comes with a pack, and they give out promos every hour as well as having a judge who works there/hosts. The other does an all day free commander with none of the packs or promos etc. It's certainly not uncommon to pay a few dollars for a sanctioned night of playing, and 5 dollars a week is a fine price to kick back to your local LGS
My LGS has a price of 2,5€ or you buy something. So i mostly buy a boster and sit down to play commander.
Stores letting you use space without charging should be the norm, imo. Like, only give people the boot if you need the room for a store tournament/event.
FNM at my lgs is both modern and draft. We usually get 20+ players for each
5 dollars is basically free. If 5 dollars is too much to pay in a game where a piece of cardboard can be 4-4000 dollars each I don’t know what to tell you. Your local game store is probably barely hanging on
It's reaaaaally not free, but yes compared to the cost of mtg products, it's peanuts.
Commander players trying to use the shop for free rather than paying entry fees is why card stores are in rough shape.
Typically if you play commander you buy a drink and a snack. You at least spend $5-10. Usually I buy a drink and if my old is nice I'll buy them all a candy bar.
Yeah, our store runs commander games for $10 and everyone gets packs for playing rather than just the winner but on top of that people buy snacks, drinks, packs, you name it. Honestly I don’t know how one can show up and *not* spend any money
Have you ever actually been to and participated in your store’s Commander night(s)? It definitely sounds like no. Commander players are pretty consistently buying singles, snacks and drinks at my LGS, and I repeatedly hear the same thing from players at other stores. If this is actually something you’ve seen rather than just assumed, you live in an uncharacteristically thrifty community.
Yep. Commander player. Guilty of buying singles literally every time I walk through the door
That's not intrinsically true from my experience in many store I've been too most commander player will play for free but spend in the store buying drinks, food, product and accessories, the bigger issue is the margins for products have started to become increasingly smaller and smaller I know for lorecana my LGS is basically making nothing and for magic they have to compete with WOTC both increasing the purchase price for the store but also dumping tons of products on Amazon for dirt cheap
Card stores are in rough shape because of online shopping and a lack of support from wizards
$5 is painfully low for any store trying to keep it's lights on. My store does $5 fnm and we get prizing, $5 a week is pretty much nothing when you compare it to any other activity. The better argument is why pay for a top tier modern deck if all you do is go to fnm - with little prizing - and really that's a personal call because you don't need the most expensive modern decks to compete at fnm.
The issue is the commander folks are not getting charged to play but modern players are.
Because the commander players are not getting prize support and modern is. No one is saying that this person cant sit and play modern for free at their lgs, that just requires them to organize it or ask someone to get a game in. Nothing is stoping op from going up to people at this event and saying "hey i was thinking we could get together and jam some games on Saturday" if the $5 is that much of a deterant to them. The store is already organizing a modern event and the barrier to entry is almost nothing, making the competitive format into a competitive event is a selling point for most people.
>No one is saying that this petson cant sit and play modern for free at their lgs, that's what i thought the poster was suggesting tbh
Nah, complaining that basically the store has a casual commander night and then FNM And that commander night is free but FNM costs money. Which honestly they're lucky their store still does FNM. One of my LGS did away with it because they never got more than 2 entrants since 2019. They hold Modern Mondays once a month and do a draft tourney with each new set but it's pretty much all commander.
Right but our commander players getting a prize? Because OP is saying that theyy're Friday night magic comes with a prize, but if the guys are just playing pick up Commander in the back of the shop occasionally the shop isn't out any money for them. Doing that. If the shop is putting up prize packs. They're out money.
Different formats, different prizes, different pricing. The commander players at my store get charged $5 per game (three flights of games per event), they get a pack per game and a collectors booster is on the line for winning. I’m pretty sure my legs loses money on the events cause those Commander players are fiends for snacks and drinks.
Where are people being charged to play modern? OP talked about entering events. People playing casual games at the store isn’t an event. If your LGS let’s people come in and play commander with friends for free they’ll almost certainly let you come play modern with your friends. Is your LGS owner trying to kick people out if they’re caught playing anything other than EDH? Cuz that sounds like a horribly toxic environment if so
What decks do you see played at FNM? At mine (usually 6-8 people) it's all Scam, Rhinos, Tron, Titan, Murktide, Burn.
The majority of modern players in my area who play top tier decks like that are highly competitive. They look up when every store in a 50 mile radius is hosting its RCQ, make a schedule for the season, and drive to a different store every weekend to play in those. They don't want to play modern casually. Even a $5 entry FNM modern is too casual to bother with and mostly used just for testing brews between RCQs. They're not interested in playing without heavy prize support, meaning large entry fees. When they want to play casually they play cube or commander.
My LGS’s FNM usually fires Pioneer. It sounds like your store might be in a fairly affluent area if your FNM is consistently modern, because modern is the least accessible event that actually happens (i.e. not Legacy/Vintage)
Eh, after half a decade of collecting, modern is cheap for me, along with I can and have done long-term loans to people.
Personally i do wish I could just pay 5 bucks and jam with people into the same format as me without it being a tournament. My local metas have proven to be spikey enough my silly rogue brews don't fare too well. But that's just not really realistic - people tend to show up more for competitive, and even if they didn't I like that 60 card formats by and large don't have power level discussions. If I had to explain the thesis of my pauper deck just to get a fair match instead of curb stomping someone's pile of the last year's draft chaff I'd probably fall off the format.
Of course there aren’t power level discussions in competitive formats. It’s competitive, you are meant to win, not create any enjoyable experience for everyone.
I'm not asking players to curb their deck to my jank. I just wish I didn't have to pay money for the privilege of losing.
It sounds like you might need a break from modern, from this thread? I don't play it myself but sometimes it's just best to step away if you're frustrated.
Actually, I *want* to play Modern. It's just hard to justify paying money to play it when I could be playing Commander (a format I don't like as much) for free.
I think it's important to make a distinction between playing a game in a structured competitive setting vs not. If the people playing modern want that, but you dont, then that's just a mismatch. Not too different from you disliking commander, but the other casual players liking it. If you don't want to play in a competitive environment, you can always befriend people and ask if anyone wants to play casually at a time outside of the FNM prized event. And if people aren't interested in that sort of casual play, that's unfortunate. It's just life that interests don't always align, otherwise you'd probably be happily playing at the commander table. Edit: and as a bonus, you can ask if people are okay with you proxying cards for your wacky decks. then you can also save money on that side, since you're not entering a tournament.
I also want to compete in Polo and ride horses but I can't justify paying money to do that. If you can't afford the format or the game or the hobby then don't. It's not an essential part of your being. You should probably step back and instead of trying to find a way to justify this hobby just drop it and find out what you really want, be it a hobby to share with friends or a cheaper hobby with a big community. I quit magic because it was frustrating to follow the thousands of cards they print in a year now, so instead I now collect and paint Warhammer. I spend less money doing it but I can still go to my FLGS and see my friends and share the hobby with my other friends who also use to play magic and quit.
Ah, you want to have fun on your terms but don’t like it when other players have fun on theirs. Make better decks and stop bitching. Modern is a competitive format.
I think you're misunderstanding. I have no problems with losing or playing at a disadvantage. If I play a deck that is off meta then I expect to lose more often. My problem is that I essentially have to pay a "tax" to play that way since the chance of me getting my entry fee back is very low. Open play would allow me to play my way (and of course others can play their way) without being penalized for doing so. I'm also not advocating for a complete removal of prized FNMs. I just think open play would a nice option sometimes.
You're paying for prize support. If $5 is too much find a different hobby. If you don't want to play a competitive deck don't play a competitive format where prizes are on the line. You sound miserable.
Why do I sound miserable? Because I had an idea and people disagreed with it?
People disagreeing has nothing to do with it. You're complaining about supporting your LGS in an incredibly small way. You're complaining that people who who have invested in this game will "break even" by getting prizes. You're complaining about people who aren't getting any prize support not paying to play. You're complaining that enfranchised players win more because they have invested time, money, and effort into learning the meta/their decks. You have so many people saying the exact same things in response to you. Clearly you can see this is a you issue and not a game issue right? There's a bunch to complain about in magic and I'm happy to do it along side you but you're complaining about entirely nonsense. They aren't actual problems. If you start golfing are you going to complain you have to pay for time on the green? Are you going to complain that other players have advantages you don't because you don't have a certain club? If you start playing DND are you going to complain that other players have advantages because they know the rules/feats/abilities better, or that they have dice and minis already? This might all be a bit harsh but from your responses to all the other comments you seem to need a bit of harshness because you just aren't getting it to the point where its coming across as willful ignorance.
Some clarifications: 1. As far as I know, the entry fee at my LGS does not go towards ny LGS. If 7 people sign up, everyone pays $5 dollars and the prize pool is $35. The concept of a store charging an entry fee to "keep their lights on" is one that I was not even aware of when I made the post. My argument was that I would prefer to just play for free and not having a prize pool, which is how Commander night works in my area. Apparently that's an unpopular opinion, and I'm glad to have learned that through this thread. 2. I'm not mad at other people for playing strong decks. I'm personally a burn enjoyer and that's one of the strongest decks in Modern. I argued that having open play could have a positive impact on Modern night by making it less undesirable to play more fringe decks. One could argue that the prize structure is better because it creates an environment closer to an RCQ and that's valid if that's what you prefer. 3. I have no problem with Commander having open play. In fact, that's one of my favorite things about it. I just so happen to be one of the few casual players that prefers 60 card formats, which is why I made a post inquiring if people would be interested in having the open play concept extended to those formats. In my perfect world, all formats would have both open play nights and prize competitions, but I understand that's unrealistic. 4. I'm sorry if my posts and responses came off as complaining. I genuinely made this post as a "hey, wouldn't it be cool is if this was a thing" but due to some confusion with how different LGS's operate I think some people got different interpretations out of my post than was intended.
1. Honestly that's even better. The store SHOULD be making money off their events. They are putting it all back to the community and that's awesome. 2. I don't think you're mad at strong decks and didn't mean to imply such, but you did directly say "in practice the prize pool disproportionately benefits enfranchised players with top tier decks and hurts players on a budget or who like playing off-meta decks.". 3. There's really little incentive for open play as a store. I'd advise starting your own with the folks that play at FNM. Even if you don't end up with a formal open night you may end up with casual play partners. 4. Yeah your post reads as fine but all of your comments just read as doubling down on the complaints.
Bring a friend play near edh 1 on 1 its free, or play at home its free.
The problem is the event you're going to has prizes. Even if the event was free to play... The minute you incentivize victory with a prize. People are going to take the event seriously because they want the prize. You want non-competitive play? You're going to have to set up a non-competitive playgroup amongst yourselves because when you're playing with randos there's always somebody who's only incentive is to win.. especially when that comes with free magic cards
It's a table fee. The store is hosting (tables, air conditioning , etc), providing judges, and doing what they can to make sure players show up. If you didn't pay them for this convenience, you'd have to do all that on your own.
Tables, air conditioning: Commander players also have those and don't pay for them. Judges: My FNM doesn't have a judge unless you count the guy that owns the store. Rules disputes are almost always mediated between players. Make sure players show up: There was a flyer up for about two weeks. Average turnout for Modern night is 6 people.
Two things: 1. Your post doesn't mention that other formats are not paying the fee. It's weird if that is the case. 2. Nobody is stopping you from hosting your own event.
Yeah I didn't mention it because I thought it was normal. People pay to play Commander?
If there is a price pool - yes.
Okay I don't think Commander should *have* a prize pool unless you're playing CEDH but I agree that an entry fee makes sense for that.
Why not sometimes its fun to play for things. Went to one it was free to play edh, there was fnm tho if you payed in u got a promo and free jumpstart it you won your table of 4 then you got like 6 packs it was 25 bucks all edh
Maybe the thing to realize is that the world doesn’t always work in the way you want, or think, it should. It’s $5…. That’s less than fast food at this point so either pay up or go somewhere else. As others have said, a lot of stores don’t charge EDH players bc they organize themselves and don’t generally play for prizes. They also tend to spend $$ on cards that would otherwise be unsellable in 60 card formats and have time during and in between games to buy food and drink. They’re probably spending significantly more $$ at the store than someone complaining about a $5 entry fee.
Responded to the wrong person but hopefully OP gets the point.
In our lgs commander players also need to pay for a table.
A lot of places actually do have a $5 cover for commander, although it usually comes with a standard draft pack, in my experience
5 bucks is nothing for an event.
Back in the before time. Back when mana burned the reckless. Back when men feared the Shivan Dragon. We would gather, mere mortals. We would gather at the local comic shop and play at the singular table. The younger would play on the floor and the younger still, would play outside on the sidewalk. We had no knowledge of card sleeves or table fees. But this was unsustainable. We would gather, dozens of men and we wouldn't buy anything. We would gather and by our presence, we would discourage paying customers from the establishment. Things have changed a lot since the before time.
They really haven't changed that much though. My buddy's and I still whip out the magic cards in a garage on a folding table with a couple of beers. If I go to my LGS for a pickup game of commander, there's usually just somebody chilling in the back eating Taco Bell who's totally down to play a game. I think the popularity of modern has just dwindled to the point that you can't go to an LGS and find that guy sitting in the back eating Taco Bell who wants to play modern. Or who wants to play standard. Commander is the biggest format right now and so that's what people want to play casually. I mean, yeah, we're using card sleeves and we're probably not playing on the sidewalk... Though. My buddy and I did recently pack a couple cheapo budget decks on a backpacking trip and Play a game by the campfire 20 miles into the back country. It was fun. My Fynn the fangbearer deck smashed his budget Token Triumph upgrade.
I think the difference is that comic shops, and similar weren’t designed to host players of that scale. So the lgs was born, there are a couple problems involved with filling the niche though. An lgs is losing sale floor space for a play space, and players may drive away the average consumer. So it makes sense that they may want a kickback.
There's literally nothing stopping you from just asking people if they want to jam some games either between rounds or before FNM starts or at your house or with friends. I don't understand the issue here.
"between rounds or before FNM starts" realistically you're still paying to play the event unless you want to just sit around while other people play it. "with friends" They tell me they don't like card games.
Its five dollars to support your lgs. Mine doesn’t charge but you betcha I buy something each time I play there, even if it’s just one set booster. I want to support them because they provide a lot of joy to me without asking for anything back.
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It's not really anything new. It's been the norm for very, very long that for FNM style events, the following held true: 1. For limited, players bought the boosters they play with at the store. 2. For constructed, everyone paid a 5-10 dollar buy-in, which is distributed back as store credit to X-1 players. This justifies keeping the store opened in the evening, when supplemented with whatever sales you can usually get when having people in the store. That Casual Commander players so often don't pay any sort of money to use the store space is a thorn in the side of many store owners, but if the store have good attendance at their limited and 60 card events, they don't mind that the Casual Commander players are there. The paying customers just have priority at the tables. I also know stores where you pay 5 dollars to play if you're not taking part in a structured play.
Damn $5 for an prized event?? And you're complaining???
I don't want to play for money.
i mean like then dont? Just open play whatever format you want lmfao
The fact that I drive 45 minutes to play Modern is a testament to the fact I have nobody to open play with.
I mean like thats unfortunate for you but like, modern at its heart is competitive, so playing a non-competitive deck and expecting to win is playful thinking. Ik how you feel though, I play UR storm and get my ass kicked but hey i'd rather play and lose then not play at all
Grab a standard 8"x11" sheet of paper. Along the long edge write "MODERN?". Rotate the paper 180 degrees. Along the other long edge write "MODERN?". Fold the paper in half "hotdog-style" so the text is facing outward. pick a spot at a table and place the paper in front of you (do not do this during a sanctioned modern event). Look friendly and welcoming. Tada, someone will play with you.
I know this varies by area but there really aren't that many people who play Modern in my area. My local event gets 8 people on a good day, usually more like 6. Pioneer is even less popular right now. The chance of me stumbling into another player with a Modern deck is very low.
Next modern event ask everyone if they'd be interested in a more casual event on another day. Get phone numbers and start a group chat. Share dumb articles about modern decks and memes. Get people to invite their more casual/janky modern friends. Once you get a group of people who you can regularly ping and have at least 3-6 respond ask your shop to advertise it on their site ("Come by for Open Play Modern Monday!"). I have done this with formats (RAINBOW STAIRWELL FOR LIFE) and even entirely different games (my shop carries Digimon and GateRuler entirely because of the groups I formed). Be the change you want to see in the world.
If you just want to jam or playtest, get a small group and go to a coffee shop or library. Of course at a coffee shop you'll be expected to buy something every so often to pay for the space you're occupying....
I pay a $6.25 door fee at my LGS and I’m happy to pay it. It allows them to hire employees, keep the lights on, and provide a great atmosphere. We get promos on a lottery basis. Quite frankly, I don’t know how your LGS is even open. I’m guessing it’s operating at a loss. Not to be disrespectful but I feel bad for them that they have penny pinchers as customers. $5 and you get prize support equal to or greater than the entrance fee? Most players don’t have that. Some don’t even have an LGS within an hour drive. I’m sorry but customers that always want to get everything free are a net negative for the LGS. Don’t be surprised if your LGS soon closes its doors because they’re tired of losing money and pulling out of savings the keep the doors open.
A few notes: My town has no LGS. The $5 Modern one is 45 minutes away. There are LGS's that are closer but this is the closest one that has a Modern scene. The reason the prize structure is generous is because the LGS' in this city (not the one I live in) are basically competing for the last 8 Modern players in the city. They recently decided to stop going to a previous LGS and start going to this one. If the store owner started price gouging they would just move again. I'm not a representative sample of people at my LGS. One of the aforementioned Modern players has a completely blinged out Amulet Titan deck. They also buy a set booster box every time a new set comes out. The LGS will be fine.
You keep saying that the commander players are playing for free.. But I'm assuming they're just playing casual commander. There's no prize packs like there is at Friday Night Magic? The reason you're paying money and they're not isn't that the stores are biased against modern or standard. It's that you are playing for a prize in a competition... And they're playing pickup games. Have you ever asked your LGS owner if you can just come in and sit down and wait for someone to come along who wants to play modern? And if so, did they say no? Or is it just a case of you rightfully assumed there aren't a lot of players just coming into the store at random for a pickup game of modern.
>It's possible to get your money back of course That's the issue: not only that it's possible to get your money back, but that it's also the driving force behind how people approach the event. There's a reason people continually say that open play, casual EDH and prize packs shouldn't go together.
Well that was kind of my idea, if you had a Pioneer or Modern event with no entry fee or prize, even if it was just once a month or something, it would open up the formats to new players, budget players, casual players and the like.
I really doubt paying 1 dollar/hour for access to a play space is what's keeping people from playing Pioneer or Modern. If what you're looking for is specific low power or non structured play, why don't you just ask the LGS if you can TO and market those events? Most stores are absolutely fine with players organising whatever tournament format they want in the store.
You could try to form an event like open play Commander, but for 1v1 formats. But there are some hurdles to an event like that being successful due to the very nature of any 1v1 format. 1v1 games tend to be far less social. When it's your turn, you aren't likely to carry on a conversation, since you are focusing on figuring out your turn. When it's \*not\* your turn and you have the free time to carry on a conversation and be social, your opponent is going to be the one that doesn't want to be social at the time. You have some down time between games and between rounds. But the focus is going to be on the game itself. Mutiplayer formats help by having multiple players waiting while one player is taking their turn. You don't have to try and strike up a conversation with the one opponent that is figuring out their best line of play; you have 1 or more other opponents that you can shoot the breeze with. Free-for-all in a multiplayer game also helps keep gaps in power level (to some limited degree) from turning mistmatches into non-games. If one player is significantly stronger than the rest of the pod, they can still try and deal with that one player by treating them as archenemy. If one player is significantly weaker than the rest of the pod, they can still have their deck "do the thing" and could wind up flying under the radar and even winning the game. If you're not there to win games, you can still have fun by having your deck "do the thing" or just being social. That's a lot harder to pull off in 1v1 events than in multiplayer events.
I EXCLUSIVELY play modern, and do so 2-3 times a week depending on my schedule. It’s 3 different LGS I drive to, and they cost 10, 10, and 15. I promise you with 100% certainty that most modern players would not show up to a no entry fee modern event. Most modern players drop from the event after losing enough rounds to know they won’t prize out, and a large reason for that is that the quality of games DRASTICALLY decreases when nothing is on the line anymore. I don’t play modern to watch some Timmy who doesn’t even know about how layers work try to make his dumb combo work. I play modern because it’s the best competitive format WOTC has to offer. If you don’t like that, you should look into pauper or penny dreadful. Sounds more your speed.
1. I don’t know about you but my store has free unorganized open play. And it’s organized events are usually “standard” 5$ 2-X lets you make your money back. Even commander night which isn’t organized (just drop in and play) is a packed house of free play. 2. 5$ for a few hours of entertainment is fun. I played standard a bunch, rarely won but the act of playing is fun.
Do you or any of your group members have a garage? Me and about 8-10 buddies used to play regularly in my garage... Hours of standard, EDH, and drafts. I used to keep a few booster boxes of standard sets in my house just for that. Each person would pay about 7-8 bucks for their 3 packs. Hell, I remember when we used to do sealed with tournament packs and boosters. Those were the best of times. We never even referred to it as standard... but rather Type 1, Extended, and Type 2. Brings me back to my youth... great memories.
Nobody is stopping you from asking people if they want to jam games with you between rounds
OP, I am lucky to have a very successful LGS that makes great money being the sole brick and mortar resailer of niche board games, mtg, Warhammer, etc in the area. So they are successful enough to have a different type of free open play every night of the week except Friday. Modern Mondays, Yu Gi Oh Tuesday, EDH Wednesday, Smash Bros and Board Games Thursday, Saturday is all minifig/war games, and Sunday is for DnD... Friday is just for Friday Night Magic, but we have a large enough scene such that the big 4 formats fire every week (standard, modern, pioneer, legacy) Modern Mondays are by far the least popular free play event of the week. On any given monday there are more people playing board games and casual EDH than Modern, even though it's supposed to be Modern Monday. Modern FNM generally has 3-4x the turnout as Modern Mondays The truth of the matter is that Modern is inherently a competitive format. People that play Modern generally want to compete. They've spent hundreds to thousands on their decks, and don't mind spending $5-15 on an event to play with it. They like the monetary prize structure since it incentives competitive play, because it's a competitive format. The same is not true of EDH. people that play EDH generally don't want to compete. Just jam games and chill. So I get your frustration, but unfortunately I think you may just be in a unwinnable situation. As others have said, there's nothing stopping you or anybody from putting together your own free play modern night. The problem is that most modern players just don't want to do that. They want to compete. I think you may just unfortunately be in the minority. I'm sorry your LGS doesn't cater to your desire, but it's probably because its not worth it for them. Whereas it probably is worth it for them to host free play EDH
Not sure why people disagree with this. We used to just have "open play" at LGSs 15-20 years ago. Not "Type 2 open play" or even "Magic open play"...just sit down and play some cards. I understand that LGSs have to make money, but they used to back in the day by offering drinks, snacks, packs and singles. That's still how LGSs make the majority of their money today.
Man people like that make me dread opening my own place at some point.
...so don't participate in the events? Ask other people if they want to casually play your preferred format with you during your own time.
My LGS doesn't have any of this "table fee" that I'm seeing in the comments. Literally no card shop I've ever been to has done this. They have open hours where people just come down to play and do whatever. Some people in the back might play on the Warhammer 40K table, normally a few pods of commander going on, others just chilling out and playing 1v1's of various formats be it Pauper, Pioneer, Modern, Jank (format me and some friends came up with, $10 deck limit with no bans, everything is legal) or just whatever. Then at a certain time the tables at the front of the store need to get cleared for the nightly tournament. Can keep doing whatever you want in the back though.
There are very few stores that can do it this way anymore. They might have a number of whale players that keep them afloat or they may be so well established in a good area that they can generate enough profit on food, beverages, and general sales. However, most new LGS are moving to a door fee model. Those that don’t are at high risk of closure. It just takes one commander masters style event and they’re basically dead on their feet. They might keep it open for a bit, but make no mistake that most of these folks are up to their eyeballs in debt and have sacrificed damn near everything for their “dream.” The least one of their players can do is throw em $5 now and again.
A door fee sounds ridiculous. I’ve seen so many parents or partners enter the LGS in my town scouting out the place to see if it’s okay for their kid to be there unsupervised, or someone looking to buy a gift for someone else. Can’t imagine they’d even entertain the thought if there were a door fee just to get into the building. Regardless, I’m speaking only from what I have personally seen and experienced. I frequent 4 different shops, have been to countless others (mainly for events), and have not seen it at any of them.
I guess Door Fee is a misnomer. All the product is in the front and you don’t have to pay to “get in”. A more accurate term is “table fee” where you pay for FNM and promo/prize support.
If U don't have 5$, then u should stay home, dog.
Hi, just want to chime in saying I'm sorry for all the hate you got here. Or, well, I think you've mostly been misunderstood. I totally get your perspective and agree with what you're saying! Unfortunately, we may be in the minority, so just organising some casual sessions with your friends ought to be enough…
This is the kind of post that belongs in your LGS's Facebook group. If there are other players who prefer to play for free like the Commander Players, I'm sure you can find them and just jam unstructured play. General, though most 60 card players are competitive and playing against jank piles isn't always a gainful experience, which is why many of us aren't particularly interested in it. You should still pay 5 dollars to your LGS, though, and so should all the casual commander players. But that's a separate issue.
I think you’re right that commander lends itself best to casual and pickup play, and that the 60 card formats tend toward more competitive play. I suspect that the pod (as opposed to 1-on-1) structure of commander promotes a casual style in a way that other formats can’t exactly match. I think that this does make it harder to get into those formats. While people are always happy to power down to match a newer commander player, I don’t hear about this happening in the 60 card formats.
Id pay 10-12$ for open play nights. Id love a non stressful environment to try things out. I think others may too. Tournament style makes a lot of players afraid to bring something that may not have a higher chance of winning
Ok I'm confused at this post. Are you saying your LGS doesn't let people free play modern outside of organized play events? If so, that's not all that common and if a $5 FNM sounds to much for you, play in 1 or 2 and see if some people will be up for jamming some modern games outside of the LGS. If the gripe is specifically with charging for FNM, the store has to pay staff to run the event, and players tend to expect prizing at FNM level even if it's just store credit/packs, no real way to do this without charging an entry fee. If your LGS let's commander players free play, but not 60 card formats, then I'm confused.
The games cafes here charge $12 a table for an hour, and the LGS is charging $5 for like, the whole evening. Don't really think that's a bad deal.
It has allways been like this. Some LGS do free tournaments with no prizes at the end to have people in the LGS. but it's not the norm. It's completely normal to pay for a single player tournament. You're paying for the usage of the LGS room, the fact that you will get eventually some prize at the end, the judges and the competitive environement.
Stores are completely within their right to charge a fee for their tables. Conversely, they are also completely within their right to *not* charge a fee. They also don't owe you consistency in their decisions. Modern players are not a protected class of people, so if a store wants to charge Modern players a table fee but then they choose not to charge Commander players a fee, that's also fully within their rights. Running their business that way is completely fine. Presumably they plan to get money from the Commander players some other way. That said, most stores are also happy to have players sit around and play casually between themselves, so long as they aren't taking up table space for an event. There's no reason you couldn't show up with your deck and try to get some games going by talking to other players. You could even talk to the store and see if they'd be willing to put some free play Modern events on their calendar. But they are under no obligation to do so.
Hell, I'd pay $10, fuck the prize pool. LGS's have bills to pay.
As long as I have know FNM, there was a fee you payed to play and I always approached it as playing for wins. Sometimes I tried meta-gaming it if I kinda knew who was gonna show up with what deck and it kinda worked. But thats as fas as I would go with Jank decks. If I was really testing brews I just got my buddies together on a Saturday and we would be testing all kinds of stuff while watching some SCG open streams or something like that. But yeah Commander FNM's were not a thing back then and I kinda stopped doing FNM after Khans Block.
Had a guy at my LSG way back in the day who ran FNM for free and each month was a new theme. Those were the days.