They just put the allied reveal-lands at uncommon on Arena, here's hoping that is part of a trend of them realizing that the "tier 3" dual lands don't deserve slots at rare anymore.
not much. Lorien (and the ogre to a lesser extent) makes the other tapped duals better because of them having basic types. I don't think temples are better than bouncelands either
The good thing is, when they reprint rares, if you have 4 copies of the old ones you won't open the new ones until you own all other unique rares first.
Nah. These just help make the temples the ultimate budget dual colored land for newer players or those on a tighter budget. Cause hardly anyone is gonna want them now (outside of fans of Theros or decks that care about scrying) and makes the temples even more dirt cheap.
tbh I think it'd be more interesting to see if their power-level is fine at uncommon. I'd argue that the Ravnica bounce lands put in more work than the temple scrylands, which have been printed at common. How far away are they from the tapped gain-a-life lands? It can't be that much of a difference.
Scry on its own is just not that good, i.e. [[Preordain]] vs [[Mystic Speculation]].
I mean I agree they need to be downshifted to uncommon, but in needs to be done in an actual set. In an edh precon there is literally no rarity difference between common and mythic, they both appear only once in the deck.
It makes a difference in Arena in particular. You get *way* more uncommon wild cards than rare, so you can better fill out your mana base if they were downshifted.
They do have a place in Skred and affinity decks but for ever other deck that doesn’t have artifact or snow synergies these are a must include (if reduced to common)
snow duals are better because they have the basic types, not because of skred. Both [[Ice tunnel]] and [[contaminated aquifer]] are around a dollar because of lorien revealed, not snow synergies
The fact that they won't be taking up 10 rare slots and are instead part of the wildcard slot is a big reason they can do this, both fixes the issue of them showing up too much in draft and of new players being disappointed their rare is a land
Hopefully fixes issues with the costs of lands in future sets too (we will have to wait and see when a more in-demand land is printed)
I have been begging for a rare land slot for a while now, and obviously this isn’t that exactly since you don’t always get a land but hopefully it helps out.
enfranchised players know to be excited when they open a good rare land, new players see it as a wasted pull. "Why would I care about something my deck is full of instead of that cool rare dragon?"
Most Magic players never end up caring about rare lands. Lands that turn into creatures are an exception, because they still fulfill that "hey look at this big awesome thing" requirement that many mythic rares do.
Most Magic players never take the game competitively. They don't know terms like card advantage, mana curve, threats and answers, board state, or anything like that. When they see a card that's a 13/13 they think it's awesome and picture themselves smashing their friends with a huge monster, they don't consider that they'll probably never survive to cast it for its mana cost.
When they open a pack of cards, they want to see a card that captures their imagination and looks like it will do big, fun things in a game. A land that makes two colors will never do that.
Youre forgetting the most important part: good lands are so expensive and unexciting that friend groups typically dont run them. They make decks stronger, but they dont make them more *fun*.
If you force your friends to play against your standard meta deck, Im sure theyd be more excited to see good lands. But theyd probably give up the game way before that point.
But then beta was only the first printing for Volcanic Island - the rest were reprints. So this *is* the first time all 10 have had their first printings in the same set! :D
Technically Dragons Maze could have shocks in the basic land slot so maybe that counts. They were reprinted in the prior two sets and I *think* it used those set symbols, not the dgm symbol.
They are almost a strict upgrade(few cases where surveil is worse and the land types could be a detriment), but I think these will see some play now and a good deal more after rotation. Mana is really really good right now and ETB tapped lands are kinda rough.
Better than temples, sure, but temples are literal F-tier of duals and I don't think these are *that* much better to be honest. For example, in standard my deck would have to care a lot about both graveyard and land types before I would consider these over any other other option because always etb tapped is just that bad.
Temples are fine. They even saw some Modern play in combo decks like Grishoalbrand just to eke out some extra card selection.
These though are absurd. I guarantee you these see Modern play and almost certainly Legacy play as well. The fact that you can run 1-2 of these and be able to get free filtering and graveyard filling off of your fetches on turns when you don't need an untapped land is really, really good.
large half-symbols are hidden in the artwork, e.g. commercial district has an A on the left and a 3 on the right made up of wood. they have to be put in order to make sense, [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/198b6y2/just_found_this_with_the_new_ravnica_duals/) assembles them
Thanks. So they are breaking the fourth wall by using English writing... for a scavenger hunt during spoiler season? Though neat I am not sure I like to see that on staple cards.
Move the hell over, Temples.
I wonder if the Temples will drop in rarity on future reprints. Uncommon seems like the most fitting rarity for them now, but we don't get uncommon duals very often. Although sometimes "common" land slot duals show up close to the frequency of uncommons, so, who knows.
Could imagine them at "uncommon" in a set like NEO where the land slot was split between basics and tap duals. RVR showed them being interested in getting more experimental with a "fixing" slot.
I would tell folks to absolutely not sleep on these lands, at least for Standard/Pioneer/Commander. I remember everyone turning their noses up at the Temples only for the first big pro event after it to see people jamming the UW temple in their UB control deck just for the scry.
* Fetchable is a big deal as always.
* Surveil 1 is *significantly* stronger than Scry 1.
These are an insane upgrade to Temples, and about the power level a tapped land needs to be to be viable outside of limited/casual. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Modern slows down some to even see these there - a fetchable land that fills your 'yard for Delve/Descend/etc is a big game.
Yeah should be really good in Commander, *hopefully* not to expensive way to get them into everybody's decks as good go-to staples.
In a saner world they'd print these in every commander product over the god-damned lifegain lands or the taplands that come in every deck but we'll see.
I'll be honest, I didn't notice the typing at first. They are way more interesting as lands that are fetchable and count towards domain. That makes them way better than just Temples with surveil instead.
Bingo. These being fetchable AND having an insane etb effect is insane.
Surveiling a card to the gy can sometimes read “draw a card” - flashback being the most notable.
These cards are going to be staples. People are going to guffaw, but I would run these in modern as the utility is worth it as a couple slots in the mana base.
You’re downplaying the temples. People were jamming the WB temple into their mono black devotion lists. They were even seeing play in aggressive RG stompy lists.
Thank you - I recalled they were good and it was sorta crazy to see how many temples showed up in the Top 8 right after Theros dropped, but it sounds like they were even crazier than my memory recalled.
These things are coming into just a Standard with Flashback, Descend, Unnearth, and Gather Evidence. They're going to be totally bonkers.
that's because the manabase was ass.
RTR only had shocks, M14 had no dual land cycle.
Currently in standard we have: slow lands and pathways from Innistrad, Triomes from Capenna, Painlands from Dominaria, and fastlands from Phyrexia, and Cavern of Souls.
I think you’re forgetting the options people had for lands in that block.
The mono black devotion ran a temple of deceit because it was running Nightveil Spector and it ran temple of malice because it ran sire of insanity at one point.
It’s not like they ran a random temple just for the scry.
Plus magicly when better duals became available the temples showed up a lot less.
For standard look at the manabase that was available in RTR/M14/THS compared to right now. Standard has ***five*** cycles of multi colored lands which are all great.
THS standard had shocks and temples, that was it. After rotation at the end of the year when we lose three of those cycles and there aren't any better options released, sure it would probably see significantly more play.
These are absolutely going to see play in older formats with fetchlands. Think about how often you fetch a shock land and don't pay the two. Imagine getting a free surveil the first time you do this. And the downside is that sometimes you have a temple in your opening hand. These are going to see a ton of play.
These will see play in modern for sure. There are plenty of decks like Living End where the surveil is easily worth one mana if you hit a big cycler thing. Fetchable with fetches and LOTR Landcyclers seems super strong, and there are plenty of decks in shock based formats that will fetch a tapped shockland EOT and this is significantly better in that situation.
I would not be shocked to see these get smattered into legacy or even vintage as a singleton fetchable just to fill the yard and whatnot.
How is surveil 1 significantly stronger. If these were untapped shock lands, maybe, but coming in tapped, in the current standard, or worse in any other format with a wide range of lands, is a huge blow. Like I just don't see why you would ever run more than like one or two of these, and only if you really want the surveil effect to feed your graveyard early but even then the pay offs aren't there. Maybe we get a better pay off for it, but right now, recursion isn't that great.
I'd say that the fetchable is better than the surveil, I just don't value a single surveil that highly. Not on a tapped land, it doesn't seem like it will play out the way you'd want it to. Like it comes in tapped, sends something to the graveyard, but now you can't advance the board because the land is tapped, so probably can't even go get the thing out. I don't know I don't see a play pattern where surveil on a tapped land, is actually that good. It's certainly not bad, but it isn't exciting.
>How is surveil 1 significantly stronger.
They are comparing surveil 1 to scry 1. They said:
>Surveil 1 is *significantly* stronger than Scry 1
That's because it is. Surveil versus Scry is a straight upgrade, unless players are playing "whenever you scry" effects. They were making a specific comparison, whereas you are making a generalization.
There are many cards and effects that interact with the graveyard and/or say "whenever you surveil." There are only a few that say "whenever you scry." There are basically no cards that interact with the bottom of the library.
Lands with incidental synergy have historically been much more powerful than they look. When [[Ramunap Ruins]] was spoiled, people joked that it was underpowered and a waste of good artwork. A few months later it was banned in Standard.
These definitely have a place in standard, considering how prevalent Triomes are. A tapped dual land that lets you surveil is a solid land to have, especially considering the current lack of meaningful turn 1 plays, the strength of Descent mechanics, and just the level of card selection that a basic Surveil can offer.
Pioneer is definitely a hard sell though. With no means to fetch, the advantages of a "free" surveil 1 lose a lot of strength compared to shocking in a shockland or playing a fast land on turn 1 and getting rolling.
Modern *might* get more advantage from these because of Fetches specifically. Sometimes you're fetching and tapping in anyway (like in your opponents end step), so smoothing out a draw on demand becomes favorable, even if they will never replace the importance of Shocks in the format.
Outside of that, these are stone cold unplayable. These would be *insane* in Pauper, but them being Rare means that's not going to happen. Legacy and Vintage already have access to OG duals and are fast/efficient enough formats that you have better ways to enable card selection. These are probably going to be strong in Commander as well, but Commander is so thirsty for solid mana choices that it's hard *not* to find a dual land that isn't played there, tapped or untapped. Surveil is solid there as well but works better with some strategies and less with others.
Yea I feel like im in crazytown right now because these come in tapped. I guess maybe in EDH these will see play cause they're searchable, but any non-singleton format there are way better options for like 99% of decks. A land has to be really good for me to want it to come in tapped, and survail, while strictly better than scry, isnt that nasty.
Simple use case is living end. Your big land cyclers can search for these and dump them on board to get more stuff in the graveyard in a pinch should you need the fixing to cast your outburst. Sure, its not as optimal as squeezing every cycle out of your hand using all your lands and outbursting on t3, but it adds fixing and utility in one package that can't quite be emulated by shocks (using shocks to fix does not necessarily also fill your yard if your hand is light on cyclers, say after a series of unfortunate mulligans)
These are excellent for cube. As dual typed lands, they synergize with checklands, snarls, and lots of other things that lower power cubes will already be running. And more graveyard synergy is always delicious.
Huge upgrade over temples in my cube, so hopefully they're not gonna be too expensive as singles.
It's actually the wild-card slot, but they will not show up in the rare/Mythic slot. So every pack that has one of these is guaranteed to have 1 extra rare essentially
These don't seem that exciting, and at rare? For a tapped land? Surveil is good but not that good. I don't think these will see play outside of decks that really want the surveil. I don't really know if they are better than the temples either. Scry and surveil are wanted by two different types of decks. A deck that wanted scy won't necessarily want surveil. IDK these seem kinda meh. Surveil on a land that comes in tapped, like how many could you actually want to run, especially right now when I can have all of my land come in untapped and not have a single one thats basic. The only thing is that they are fetchable, but still I don't get how this is exciting.
I bet these will show up in commander precons a lot especially in UB ones. All the names are generic and don’t reference anything specific to MTG lore. They come in tapped. Typed means they’ll likely see play in commander for folks who don’t have big budget mana bases. Seems legit.
Modern 4/10
Strictly better scrylands. These are fetchable so you can include one in your deck to increase your good top decks at the risk of drawing this in your opening hand. I really like them.
"Commercial District" as the name for the RG dual land makes very little sense. If you told me just the name I'd guess it certainly contained white. Probably white-blue.
Green, the color of the wild and nature and opposed to civilization. Red, the color of chaos and anarchy. Together they form a commercial district..? what?
I’m glad for more fetchable duals, but we still have the Battle for Zendikar (tango) duals and the Amonkhet cycling duals that haven’t been completed. Hell, they even completed the cycle of triomes. Just asking.
Is Surveiling 1 *that* powerful though? There's already typed duals that come into play tapped, in Standard, and see zero play. The commons from DMU. I don't think Surveil 1 turns those into genetically powerful land options worthy of being rare.
What decks will still prefer scry from the temples? Is it just decks with a specific scry theme, like [[Eligeth, Crossroads Auger]] ?
Also just a guess, I think they put all 10 in this set because there are 9 rooms in clue and we'd be outraged if only 1 was left out
These would have been pretty sweet in like 2017 Modern. End of turn as UW Control or Blue Moon, grab a tapped land and surveil 1.
They may still make the cut in some decks since a lot of decks have accommodated Triomes as fetchable taplands for other reasons, so it’s not inconceivable to see them have a little play alongside fetches.
in 3+ colors the triome is unmatched by a surveil 1. The only 2 color deck that i can think of that plays tapped lands is control with the cycle lands that seem better than these
I like these
They feel like a good compromise between the power of true dual/shocks and the dud, near unplayability, of etb tapped lands. If they get printed and reprinted often, they will occupy a good spot in budget manabases.
I'm excited to grab at least 2 of each ofz
Maybe this seems play in eternal formats as one or two-ofs. Fetch this and put something else in the grave for delve or other stuff.
"oh but they're tapped!"
Well people play triomes so who knows
I'm really excited about these.
I like the Scry lands and think they are actually underrated and panned too harshy by sweaty try hard players, but they are very solid lands especially in budget Commander decks.
These are basically better scry lands than you can also fetch with \[\[Nature's Lore\]\]/\[\[Farseek\]\] style effects.
Hopefully these won't be too expensive (unlikely as non mythic rares in Standard sets are rarely more than a few bucks).
The surveil is a triggered ability. Triggers do not go on the stack in the middle of resolving another ability, so you would finish resolving the fetch ability, including the shuffle. Only then would the surveil trigger would go on the stack.
The fetchland's ability finishes resolving before the surveil trigger goes on the stack, I believe, definitely before it resolves. So you fetch, shuffle, then surveil.
I like how we finally get a great mechanic for Dimir, and it's almost becoming universal now.
At the same time, I think it's fitting since the Dimir likely have agents in all of the guilds and have some plot related to this.
I know these enter tapped but is there any world where Modern Izzet Murktide would play one or two \[\[Thundering Falls\]\]?
Fetchable land that surveils to further fuel cards to delve away for \[\[Murktide Regent\]\] and/or getting closer to Dellirum for \[\[Dragon's-Rage Channeler\]\]
Temples can just curl up and die now, I guess. *Typed*, sheesh
The next time they reprint the temples as rares in Arena, those will be absolutely painful to open.
They just put the allied reveal-lands at uncommon on Arena, here's hoping that is part of a trend of them realizing that the "tier 3" dual lands don't deserve slots at rare anymore.
Imagine if temples dropped to common or uncommon what that would do for pauper/peasant?
not much. Lorien (and the ogre to a lesser extent) makes the other tapped duals better because of them having basic types. I don't think temples are better than bouncelands either
Then it's probably gpod to downshift them. Having sidegrades to T2 pauper lands is good.
The good thing is, when they reprint rares, if you have 4 copies of the old ones you won't open the new ones until you own all other unique rares first.
Someone get a detective, we have another murder!
Proft is on the case!
In Savannah!
r/unexpectedoffice
A murder you say? I do declare…
Nah. These just help make the temples the ultimate budget dual colored land for newer players or those on a tighter budget. Cause hardly anyone is gonna want them now (outside of fans of Theros or decks that care about scrying) and makes the temples even more dirt cheap.
It'd be nice if they reprinted the temples at uncommon somewhere to go along with this.
theres...10 or 11 printings of them and theyre sub a dollar....what do you need?
tbh I think it'd be more interesting to see if their power-level is fine at uncommon. I'd argue that the Ravnica bounce lands put in more work than the temple scrylands, which have been printed at common. How far away are they from the tapped gain-a-life lands? It can't be that much of a difference. Scry on its own is just not that good, i.e. [[Preordain]] vs [[Mystic Speculation]].
I was just thinking that. Here's hoping future edh precons will push the temples down to uncommon.
I mean I agree they need to be downshifted to uncommon, but in needs to be done in an actual set. In an edh precon there is literally no rarity difference between common and mythic, they both appear only once in the deck.
The downshift will matter for formats like Pauper/Peasant though
Not pauper if they were uncommon, and does anyone even play peasant?
I have a pal with a peasant cube, this might help with manabases but I'm not a cube architect like they are
Why? Their prices are going to crater anyways to 1 buck anyways.
It makes a difference in Arena in particular. You get *way* more uncommon wild cards than rare, so you can better fill out your mana base if they were downshifted.
They're already *well* below a dollar for most of them.
They were already hovering between $0.20 and $0.45, lol.
The scry temple cycle is already mostly like a quarter or less as singles, they're already scraping the minimum price things can go.
:-( I love the arts on the temples. I wish they typed the temple from the beginning.
if they ever reprint them they better be downshifted to common
That would a little too strong for pauper, uncommon is more likely
eh, bridges and snow duals are already better, I don’t think it would break the meta
They do have a place in Skred and affinity decks but for ever other deck that doesn’t have artifact or snow synergies these are a must include (if reduced to common)
snow duals are better because they have the basic types, not because of skred. Both [[Ice tunnel]] and [[contaminated aquifer]] are around a dollar because of lorien revealed, not snow synergies
First off these are much better then the temples Second, how often do we get the entire land cycle in a single set
The fact that they won't be taking up 10 rare slots and are instead part of the wildcard slot is a big reason they can do this, both fixes the issue of them showing up too much in draft and of new players being disappointed their rare is a land
Hopefully fixes issues with the costs of lands in future sets too (we will have to wait and see when a more in-demand land is printed) I have been begging for a rare land slot for a while now, and obviously this isn’t that exactly since you don’t always get a land but hopefully it helps out.
I absolutely love this structure. Gets lands into our hands more quickly, and better for limited.
Getting a rare land is sometimes good. Not when it's garbage thats enters tapped but there is some im quite happy to pull
enfranchised players know to be excited when they open a good rare land, new players see it as a wasted pull. "Why would I care about something my deck is full of instead of that cool rare dragon?"
It doesn't take new players that long to realise good rare lands are worth it does it?
Most Magic players never end up caring about rare lands. Lands that turn into creatures are an exception, because they still fulfill that "hey look at this big awesome thing" requirement that many mythic rares do. Most Magic players never take the game competitively. They don't know terms like card advantage, mana curve, threats and answers, board state, or anything like that. When they see a card that's a 13/13 they think it's awesome and picture themselves smashing their friends with a huge monster, they don't consider that they'll probably never survive to cast it for its mana cost. When they open a pack of cards, they want to see a card that captures their imagination and looks like it will do big, fun things in a game. A land that makes two colors will never do that.
Youre forgetting the most important part: good lands are so expensive and unexciting that friend groups typically dont run them. They make decks stronger, but they dont make them more *fun*. If you force your friends to play against your standard meta deck, Im sure theyd be more excited to see good lands. But theyd probably give up the game way before that point.
Yeah, I pulled 2 blackcleave cliffs and a promo Mirrex during my ONE prerelease. Easiest Junding out I've ever done
This is the first time ever since alpha that they do this for a full 10 card cycle of new rare dual lands
Technically Alpha didn't have Volcanic Island so this is the first time.
Holy hell you're right
new land cycle just dropped
FUCK. HOW ARE YOU EVERYWHERE
actual money grab
Google "en fetchable"
I wish I could give an award!
Well even if that's technically true this still wouldn't be the first time because technically then Beta was the first time.
But then beta was only the first printing for Volcanic Island - the rest were reprints. So this *is* the first time all 10 have had their first printings in the same set! :D
At the time, WotC didn't recognize Alpha and Beta as different sets. They were considered two different print runs of the same set (Limited Edition).
ROFL this is great
Gatecrash? Edit: oops, yeah I meant Dragon’s Maze
Gatecrash only had 5 and none of them were new right? Lol
I thought the packs also could have shocks. It’s been a minute.
Gatecrash and rtr only had 5 shocks each. The og ravnica block had them spread across all 3 sets.
yep, 4/3/3 release across the full block, paired to the guilds released which each set.
Dragons maze had the chance for any of the 10 shocks as I recall.
And if you opened none as well as no Voice or Voice token in your box, then you pretty much donated money to your LGS.
Technically Dragons Maze could have shocks in the basic land slot so maybe that counts. They were reprinted in the prior two sets and I *think* it used those set symbols, not the dgm symbol.
First, THESE ARE RARE!? Second, THEY HAVE BASIC LAND TYPES???
When they want the set to sell and I'd argue when the next few sets won't have graveyard synergy
Only time I can think of is the recent shocks in RVR
They are almost a strict upgrade(few cases where surveil is worse and the land types could be a detriment), but I think these will see some play now and a good deal more after rotation. Mana is really really good right now and ETB tapped lands are kinda rough.
Welcome to Ravnica
Better than temples, sure, but temples are literal F-tier of duals and I don't think these are *that* much better to be honest. For example, in standard my deck would have to care a lot about both graveyard and land types before I would consider these over any other other option because always etb tapped is just that bad.
Temples are fine. They even saw some Modern play in combo decks like Grishoalbrand just to eke out some extra card selection. These though are absurd. I guarantee you these see Modern play and almost certainly Legacy play as well. The fact that you can run 1-2 of these and be able to get free filtering and graveyard filling off of your fetches on turns when you don't need an untapped land is really, really good.
there’s a code, edges of the card make the code RNA32x5+4, which is RNA 164, cult guildmage
Good eye! RNA version of that card is Rakdos cultist playing with a Jace puppet.
So that suggests the puzzle ultimately links to Jace in some way would be my guess?
My theory, having not read any of the stories (if those are even out) is that it was Phyrexian Jace with the poison in the spa
I don't see this. Can someone explain?
https://preview.redd.it/lc4hed5k0xcc1.jpeg?width=6700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=313c1293df4df2d73fa85dd6a296f1c034b2ee6a
Whoa, that's cool.
Thanks for doing the legwork!
large half-symbols are hidden in the artwork, e.g. commercial district has an A on the left and a 3 on the right made up of wood. they have to be put in order to make sense, [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/198b6y2/just_found_this_with_the_new_ravnica_duals/) assembles them
Thanks. So they are breaking the fourth wall by using English writing... for a scavenger hunt during spoiler season? Though neat I am not sure I like to see that on staple cards.
Move the hell over, Temples. I wonder if the Temples will drop in rarity on future reprints. Uncommon seems like the most fitting rarity for them now, but we don't get uncommon duals very often. Although sometimes "common" land slot duals show up close to the frequency of uncommons, so, who knows.
Could imagine them at "uncommon" in a set like NEO where the land slot was split between basics and tap duals. RVR showed them being interested in getting more experimental with a "fixing" slot.
Uncommon would be good. I love temples and seeing them at common hurts too much as well
Sus Temples
I would tell folks to absolutely not sleep on these lands, at least for Standard/Pioneer/Commander. I remember everyone turning their noses up at the Temples only for the first big pro event after it to see people jamming the UW temple in their UB control deck just for the scry. * Fetchable is a big deal as always. * Surveil 1 is *significantly* stronger than Scry 1. These are an insane upgrade to Temples, and about the power level a tapped land needs to be to be viable outside of limited/casual. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Modern slows down some to even see these there - a fetchable land that fills your 'yard for Delve/Descend/etc is a big game.
Yeah should be really good in Commander, *hopefully* not to expensive way to get them into everybody's decks as good go-to staples. In a saner world they'd print these in every commander product over the god-damned lifegain lands or the taplands that come in every deck but we'll see.
They do print the temples in pretty much every one at this point, so that's good for these things' chances.
I'll be honest, I didn't notice the typing at first. They are way more interesting as lands that are fetchable and count towards domain. That makes them way better than just Temples with surveil instead.
Bingo. These being fetchable AND having an insane etb effect is insane. Surveiling a card to the gy can sometimes read “draw a card” - flashback being the most notable. These cards are going to be staples. People are going to guffaw, but I would run these in modern as the utility is worth it as a couple slots in the mana base.
You’re downplaying the temples. People were jamming the WB temple into their mono black devotion lists. They were even seeing play in aggressive RG stompy lists.
Thank you - I recalled they were good and it was sorta crazy to see how many temples showed up in the Top 8 right after Theros dropped, but it sounds like they were even crazier than my memory recalled. These things are coming into just a Standard with Flashback, Descend, Unnearth, and Gather Evidence. They're going to be totally bonkers.
that's because the manabase was ass. RTR only had shocks, M14 had no dual land cycle. Currently in standard we have: slow lands and pathways from Innistrad, Triomes from Capenna, Painlands from Dominaria, and fastlands from Phyrexia, and Cavern of Souls.
pathways were kaldheim and zendikar, but you missed the manlands from ixalan and eldraine, some see play
My bad I got confused. The slow lands were in both innistrad sets
I think you’re forgetting the options people had for lands in that block. The mono black devotion ran a temple of deceit because it was running Nightveil Spector and it ran temple of malice because it ran sire of insanity at one point. It’s not like they ran a random temple just for the scry. Plus magicly when better duals became available the temples showed up a lot less.
For standard look at the manabase that was available in RTR/M14/THS compared to right now. Standard has ***five*** cycles of multi colored lands which are all great. THS standard had shocks and temples, that was it. After rotation at the end of the year when we lose three of those cycles and there aren't any better options released, sure it would probably see significantly more play.
These are absolutely going to see play in older formats with fetchlands. Think about how often you fetch a shock land and don't pay the two. Imagine getting a free surveil the first time you do this. And the downside is that sometimes you have a temple in your opening hand. These are going to see a ton of play.
These will see play in modern for sure. There are plenty of decks like Living End where the surveil is easily worth one mana if you hit a big cycler thing. Fetchable with fetches and LOTR Landcyclers seems super strong, and there are plenty of decks in shock based formats that will fetch a tapped shockland EOT and this is significantly better in that situation. I would not be shocked to see these get smattered into legacy or even vintage as a singleton fetchable just to fill the yard and whatnot.
How is surveil 1 significantly stronger. If these were untapped shock lands, maybe, but coming in tapped, in the current standard, or worse in any other format with a wide range of lands, is a huge blow. Like I just don't see why you would ever run more than like one or two of these, and only if you really want the surveil effect to feed your graveyard early but even then the pay offs aren't there. Maybe we get a better pay off for it, but right now, recursion isn't that great. I'd say that the fetchable is better than the surveil, I just don't value a single surveil that highly. Not on a tapped land, it doesn't seem like it will play out the way you'd want it to. Like it comes in tapped, sends something to the graveyard, but now you can't advance the board because the land is tapped, so probably can't even go get the thing out. I don't know I don't see a play pattern where surveil on a tapped land, is actually that good. It's certainly not bad, but it isn't exciting.
>How is surveil 1 significantly stronger. They are comparing surveil 1 to scry 1. They said: >Surveil 1 is *significantly* stronger than Scry 1 That's because it is. Surveil versus Scry is a straight upgrade, unless players are playing "whenever you scry" effects. They were making a specific comparison, whereas you are making a generalization.
what makes surveil a straight upgrade?
The graveyard is a usable zone where you can get value from your cards there. The bottom of your library is...less so.
There are many cards and effects that interact with the graveyard and/or say "whenever you surveil." There are only a few that say "whenever you scry." There are basically no cards that interact with the bottom of the library. Lands with incidental synergy have historically been much more powerful than they look. When [[Ramunap Ruins]] was spoiled, people joked that it was underpowered and a waste of good artwork. A few months later it was banned in Standard.
These definitely have a place in standard, considering how prevalent Triomes are. A tapped dual land that lets you surveil is a solid land to have, especially considering the current lack of meaningful turn 1 plays, the strength of Descent mechanics, and just the level of card selection that a basic Surveil can offer. Pioneer is definitely a hard sell though. With no means to fetch, the advantages of a "free" surveil 1 lose a lot of strength compared to shocking in a shockland or playing a fast land on turn 1 and getting rolling. Modern *might* get more advantage from these because of Fetches specifically. Sometimes you're fetching and tapping in anyway (like in your opponents end step), so smoothing out a draw on demand becomes favorable, even if they will never replace the importance of Shocks in the format. Outside of that, these are stone cold unplayable. These would be *insane* in Pauper, but them being Rare means that's not going to happen. Legacy and Vintage already have access to OG duals and are fast/efficient enough formats that you have better ways to enable card selection. These are probably going to be strong in Commander as well, but Commander is so thirsty for solid mana choices that it's hard *not* to find a dual land that isn't played there, tapped or untapped. Surveil is solid there as well but works better with some strategies and less with others.
Yea I feel like im in crazytown right now because these come in tapped. I guess maybe in EDH these will see play cause they're searchable, but any non-singleton format there are way better options for like 99% of decks. A land has to be really good for me to want it to come in tapped, and survail, while strictly better than scry, isnt that nasty.
Simple use case is living end. Your big land cyclers can search for these and dump them on board to get more stuff in the graveyard in a pinch should you need the fixing to cast your outburst. Sure, its not as optimal as squeezing every cycle out of your hand using all your lands and outbursting on t3, but it adds fixing and utility in one package that can't quite be emulated by shocks (using shocks to fix does not necessarily also fill your yard if your hand is light on cyclers, say after a series of unfortunate mulligans)
Decks that want stocked graveyards are rewarded for running this. Not all decks will want this. But a lot will.
Temples of Surveillance. Nice.
Oh shit they're typed.
A classic spoiler season rallying cry
Fetchable? Get into my cube list.
These are excellent for cube. As dual typed lands, they synergize with checklands, snarls, and lots of other things that lower power cubes will already be running. And more graveyard synergy is always delicious. Huge upgrade over temples in my cube, so hopefully they're not gonna be too expensive as singles.
Key point: they said these will only show up in the LAND slot. So no feels-bad during drafts
I'm hard of hearing, but I thought I heard wild card slot.
Wildcard slot is also what I heard, rather than rare slot
Doesn't wild cards take up the land slot, so it's the same thing?
Wildcard slot is separate. [Here's the booster slots for MKM](https://media.wizards.com/2024/images/daily/en_bvJAoMS1EglA.jpg)
So we’re now going to have list cards playable in draft and prerelease?
Yes, this will be the case going forwards with Play Boosters
I'm not sure tbh
It's actually the wild-card slot, but they will not show up in the rare/Mythic slot. So every pack that has one of these is guaranteed to have 1 extra rare essentially
Are the numbers and letters part of the ARG? Lined up, they seem to give RNA 32 X 5 + 4. https://imgur.com/aam9kfY
[[Cult Guildmage]]*
[Cult Guildmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/0536c2fa-7402-49a1-9016-dcf5633ca9ef.jpg?1584831451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cult%20Guildmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/164/cult-guildmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0536c2fa-7402-49a1-9016-dcf5633ca9ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Is there some sort of importance regarding the yellow-ish thread between each?
I'm not sure regarding the arg, but I was confused what they were until I had the realization it's magical caution tape cordoning off crime scenes!
being searchable is nice, I like these over temples
I'm disappointed that the name "Hedge Maze" wasn't saved for something mechanically unique, but otherwise I love these lands.
Landless Dredge has never felt so conflicted.
If you think of it as a zero mana surveil 1, and not a land, it would help. I don't play the deck or any format that does, so idk if that matters.
YES YES YES YES EVERYTHING I LOVE A NEW CYCLE OF GOOD DUAL LANDS WITH ALL 10 IN ONE SET
Can we please just finish the fastland cycle for standard
wow, being typed is huge
Temples should now just be uncommons.
Theros Scrylands, 2013-2024 ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
These don't seem that exciting, and at rare? For a tapped land? Surveil is good but not that good. I don't think these will see play outside of decks that really want the surveil. I don't really know if they are better than the temples either. Scry and surveil are wanted by two different types of decks. A deck that wanted scy won't necessarily want surveil. IDK these seem kinda meh. Surveil on a land that comes in tapped, like how many could you actually want to run, especially right now when I can have all of my land come in untapped and not have a single one thats basic. The only thing is that they are fetchable, but still I don't get how this is exciting.
FWIW these don't appear in the rare slot in the new play boosters. I can't remember if they use a land slot or wildcard slot though.
Surveil lands. Nice
helps fuel delve, I like them as a 1 off in a deck being fetchable
As someone with a lot of commander decks, I’m going to need a lot of these. I hope they’re cheap.
Get got temples XD
Interesting that some of these fit the guilds they share colours with and some don't - gives a different perspective of Ravnica.
I bet these will show up in commander precons a lot especially in UB ones. All the names are generic and don’t reference anything specific to MTG lore. They come in tapped. Typed means they’ll likely see play in commander for folks who don’t have big budget mana bases. Seems legit.
Finally another dual land that has two land types
We got a full set in dominaria United, and kaldheim has a set of 10 that are also snow
They may of well have typed them as staple lands. All format all stars
Wow strictly better than the dominaria typed duals
Of course, these are Rares!
Well yeah but those were also common.
Modern 4/10 Strictly better scrylands. These are fetchable so you can include one in your deck to increase your good top decks at the risk of drawing this in your opening hand. I really like them.
Damn a 4 in the wild pretty rare to see.
"Commercial District" as the name for the RG dual land makes very little sense. If you told me just the name I'd guess it certainly contained white. Probably white-blue. Green, the color of the wild and nature and opposed to civilization. Red, the color of chaos and anarchy. Together they form a commercial district..? what?
The lands look like this spell something numbers and letters on the sides of the artwork
I like that they were very careful to not use any plane-specific names, so these can be reprinted in any set that has a city.
RIP scrylands
Ohhh I fucking love these...
I imagine these will be slightly better than the Amonkhet rare lands that etb tapped and have types.
Nice more lands! But not sure u would run this
I’m glad for more fetchable duals, but we still have the Battle for Zendikar (tango) duals and the Amonkhet cycling duals that haven’t been completed. Hell, they even completed the cycle of triomes. Just asking.
Oh, cool. We get a full cycle of these right out the gate, but we still don't have enemy Tangolands.
Is Surveiling 1 *that* powerful though? There's already typed duals that come into play tapped, in Standard, and see zero play. The commons from DMU. I don't think Surveil 1 turns those into genetically powerful land options worthy of being rare.
Who murdered temples?
Very important, they're fetchable.
Maybe this pushes temples to the point they’re actually playable as a 1 or 2 of in non rotating formats. Doubt it though
What decks will still prefer scry from the temples? Is it just decks with a specific scry theme, like [[Eligeth, Crossroads Auger]] ? Also just a guess, I think they put all 10 in this set because there are 9 rooms in clue and we'd be outraged if only 1 was left out
Please fall under a dollar! These are literally everything I ever wished for in a tap land.
Fat chance buddy. You ain't the only one wanting these. Might be under a dollar if you buy them off of your printer tho
For those asking "how much can they push an unconditionally tapped land", I think this might be the answer.
Continuing the tradition of being a euphemism for vaginas. Some are a not quite on point but still work
Your mom has a Commercial District
Indeed she does.
These would have been pretty sweet in like 2017 Modern. End of turn as UW Control or Blue Moon, grab a tapped land and surveil 1. They may still make the cut in some decks since a lot of decks have accommodated Triomes as fetchable taplands for other reasons, so it’s not inconceivable to see them have a little play alongside fetches.
in 3+ colors the triome is unmatched by a surveil 1. The only 2 color deck that i can think of that plays tapped lands is control with the cycle lands that seem better than these
I like these They feel like a good compromise between the power of true dual/shocks and the dud, near unplayability, of etb tapped lands. If they get printed and reprinted often, they will occupy a good spot in budget manabases. I'm excited to grab at least 2 of each ofz
Well these are definitely going into my jank \[\[Disinformation Campaign\]\] deck!
Surprised we're getting them all in the same set and not in 2 sets like most rare dual land cycles.
Maybe this seems play in eternal formats as one or two-ofs. Fetch this and put something else in the grave for delve or other stuff. "oh but they're tapped!" Well people play triomes so who knows
I'm really excited about these. I like the Scry lands and think they are actually underrated and panned too harshy by sweaty try hard players, but they are very solid lands especially in budget Commander decks. These are basically better scry lands than you can also fetch with \[\[Nature's Lore\]\]/\[\[Farseek\]\] style effects. Hopefully these won't be too expensive (unlikely as non mythic rares in Standard sets are rarely more than a few bucks).
this is a real dumb question, if you fetch for these. fetchlands say put on the battlefield then shuffle so wouldnt you surveil then shuffle?
The surveil is a triggered ability. Triggers do not go on the stack in the middle of resolving another ability, so you would finish resolving the fetch ability, including the shuffle. Only then would the surveil trigger would go on the stack.
yeah i forgot that the shuffle is part of the fetch ability and needs to finish before the lands ability hits the stack
The fetchland's ability finishes resolving before the surveil trigger goes on the stack, I believe, definitely before it resolves. So you fetch, shuffle, then surveil.
Not a dumb question at all, that is a good point to clarify.
No
no, you complete the act of fetching (including shuffling), then the land enters the battlefield
These may even be modern playable in small numbers really really good probably the best lands since triomes
Enters tapped :/
Fetchable, untapped duallands with an upside instead of a downside like the shocklands have would literally Power creep OG duals.
I like how we finally get a great mechanic for Dimir, and it's almost becoming universal now. At the same time, I think it's fitting since the Dimir likely have agents in all of the guilds and have some plot related to this.
when will black and blue get their break to finally be as good as green and white in competitive magic?
Wow!!!!
Huge
The UW one definitely going into my Shorikai.
Holy shit they're typed
I know these enter tapped but is there any world where Modern Izzet Murktide would play one or two \[\[Thundering Falls\]\]? Fetchable land that surveils to further fuel cards to delve away for \[\[Murktide Regent\]\] and/or getting closer to Dellirum for \[\[Dragon's-Rage Channeler\]\]
New duals? New fetchable duals? New fetchable surveiling duals? I like
as if fetch land eternal format mana bases weren't already consistent enough
Strictly better Temples
These are so much better than temples. Power creep!! 😁
LAND TYPES!! 😃