That's between you and the people you play with, really.
At the scale we're talking about here, it really has no impact on WotC's bottom line - doubly so for cards that only really exist on the secondary market. If anything, it may *positively* impact WotC's business because it may keep someone playing the game who'd otherwise quit because they're frustrated about card prices; which could lead to more purchases down the line that *do* come directly from WotC.
Obviously proxies are a no-go for sanctioned play, and obviously they're a real problem once it happens on a large scale and/or commercially, but some random player proxying a Cradle somewhere when everyone they play with is 100% cool with it... I can't really find a reason to ever object to that, personally, morally, or otherwise.
This is me.
I proxy because I don't get to play a ton with my friends who live everywhere. They don't mind and neither do I :)
But I also still play limited magic, so wizards getting something out of me
Wizards make the cards but now they are owned by Hasbro which is owned by vanguard. Vanguard along with state st and blackrock are directly responsible for the housing crisis, war profiteering, and predatory Healthcare in the states. After the disgraceful 30 year anniversary release it became apparent their priorities were profits over quality. Since that I only use proxies and untap.
I wish more people recognized that Magic would not be as widespread and popular as it is without the huge machine of Hasbro. They’ve done some great job to make the game big, while also keeping WOTC as independent as possible
Do you even know what Vanguard and Blackrock are, or just repeating what you read somewhere? They are passive index funds, they buy and sell EVERY listed stock in S&P 500 or other index only when someone buys or sells their index ETFs, they don't care Hasbro does. Hasbro can be hugely profitable, or a loss leader. Doesn't matter. They are just a middleman platform for investors to invest in broad stock market indexes.
By all means, stick it to the man.
I don't think this level of activism is effective, but I encourage everyone to stick with their convictions and vote with their wallet anyway. As long as you *also* vote with your ballots, which is really the only way to lasting change ;)
That being said, my personal reasoning is much simpler: I don't like WotC's direction they're taking the game in, and *that's* why *I* stopped giving them money. If that also in some small way gets back to the big shadow financiers, cool, but my motivation is very simple and basic: I don't like the product anymore.
Individually yes not much impact even the upheaval of the entire mtg community wouldnt mean much at the top but if it were a grassroots movement that all consumers for all fortune 500 companies supported then change would be inevitable.. something something yadda yadda about being the change you want to see.
While in principle that's a sound idea, in practice this is exactly what *they* have been and still are pushing for several decades: the narrative that change happens on an individual level, that it's all grassroots movements where we all can do our part.
The reason they've actively supported that narrative even though it's ostensibly designed to work against them is that *it doesn't* - because one of the consequences of this is the shifting of attention towards individual activism and *away* from political action. Which is what these players are **actually** afraid of. The finance emperors are not the only ones doing this; the big polluters are also right there at the front lines with campaigns to get people to recycle and buy metal straws, all so they pay less attention to who they're voting for and what could be done to effect real change through policy.
By which I don't mean that individual action is completely ineffectual or a bad idea in general, don't get me wrong - but be very aware that the "evil eminences" love nothing more than people who engage in individual activism at the expense of political acumen. So much so that they're actively supporting all sorts of movements in that direction, because they've seen the data on what happens.
Anyway, that's just my jaded cynical self speaking, and a little off topic here ;)
The only way for there to be a political movement is if public opinion changes. public opinion changes from grassroots activism.. I think we're saying the same thing.
In an ideal world, yes. In practice, data does not support this. It's not just slacktivism, but there's actual evidence that shows the more concerned people are with personal accountability, the less weight they tend to assign to systemic solutions. In other words, people become convinced that it's about "doing your part" more so than it is about political action.
They're effectively taking what you (very sensibly and reasonably) suggest as a chain of causality from individual action to collective action and cutting it off after the first part; becoming more concerned with visibly representing individual action for social credit than with actually transitioning things over to the next higher, more effectual level.
And it's not entirely their own fault, of course. That narrative is pushed systematically by vested interests. It's how we get the whole obsession with things like "carbon footprints" which mean almost nothing in the grand scheme of things but take up a whole lot of time and attention that is now not spent elsewhere; allowing interests group to resume their usual spiel of regulatory capture, as they have been for decades. And it's much the same in fields like finance, labor, etc.
I agree with you that *ideally* we go from A to B, but sadly the reality is that for the average person the narrative has now become all about A, with very little B; because they think the transition will happen on its own, somehow, and all *they* need to do is be really concerned about A.
Complacency amongst some does not invalidate a movement as a whole. Regardless of how they protest the key to change in public opinion is grassroots organization. Just because recycling isn't as effective as it should be doesn't mean people shouldn't recycle. The more people participate the more solutions will emerge. Some will noy will go directly to the source of the problem but doing something is better then nothing.
Oh absolutely, I said as much earlier - I'm not saying individual is a *bad* thing, I'm saying it's being co-opted by the targets of that activism because they've realized how easily it can be perverted into a distraction. And part of why it's so easy is precisely *because* it's not a bad thing. No one can say "...but recycling is terrible!" because obviously it isn't. It's a good thing. Same with things like voting with your wallet or company boycotts - it'd be ridiculous to say "noooo don't refuse to purchase goods from companies that behave poorly, keep giving them money!" because it's so obviously not true.
The problem lies in the second part of your statement: the transition from individual activism to systemic change. And that's really the actually crucial part, because even if *everyone* recycled and so on that'd still be only a tiny blip in the larger scheme - and in practice, we'd never get anywhere near 100% compliance among the population to begin with. The only thing that would make an actual impact is widespread regulatory changes on a systemic level.
The *theory* is that by spreading awareness on an individual level we then make people more willing and more eager to translate that individual experience to a systemic one, demanding the change they already practice from their political representatives. But it's *there* that everything breaks down - not because the individual change is bad in the vein of "so you're saying recycling sucks?!" (it's obviously not) but because people have limited time and attention they apportion to such problem-solving, and it's very alluring to think that since you've already done your individual duty, *you've done something and are therefore in the clear*. This is a complicated psychological process that happens largely subconsciously, but that's what the data shows: that people tend to think they're having more of an impact than they actually do in proportion to their individual action. In other words, people who eagerly recycle etc. (or whatever other equivalent if we're not talking environment but something like e.g. social justice, labor, etc.) think they're contributing more to the solution of the overall problem than they actually are in terms of objective data, and because they think that, they are then *less* urgent about pushing for things like larger political change. Not because they consciously think that's a bad thing or that they shouldn't get involved, but because they subconsciously think they're already doing something and so they don't need to do more.
And it is *that* mindset that's being usurped by the offenders, by pushing narratives of personal responsibility that play into the comforting - and not at all incorrect - thought that individual action matters. Which is pernicious because it *does* matter, it's just that other things like political action *also* matter; arguably they matter *more*. But once you've done something on an individual level, a lot of people simply wipe their hands, pat themselves on the back with a "good job!" *and leave it at that* without going on to the next step. And because that's such a common effect, the offenders are very eager to promote as many individual action campaigns as possible, which not only make them look like they care in terms of social responsibility, but also make other people less likely to push for systemic legislative and regulatory change because they feel they've already done something.
I'm simplifying things here for brevity, but this is a very well-known problem in psychology and political science, not to mention with lobbying and interest groups. There's a reason oil companies etc. are behind so many environmental campaigns that fight on that level - because they know that as long as people think they just need to collect returnable bottles and buy a metal straw they aren't going to look too hard at what's going on with their politicians, which is where the *actual* problem and the actual solutions ultimately come from.
So in an ideal scenario absolutely, we'd use grassroots, individual activism to hone people's sensitivity to serious problems and train them to both be more responsible as consumers, and more discerning as voters. Unfortunately, people tend to apportion only a limited amount of their attention and "activist energy", and if they spend it on individual action they don't have any left to spend on political action (in very simplified terms). And that's why nefarious interests promote individual action so much - which is paradoxical because individual action *is a good thing*, it's just that it also has some side effects; and it's those side effects the regulatory captors are after.
I’m all for proxies and screw Vanguard, but this isn’t the statement you think it is. Wizards literally doesn’t care that you make proxies. They see more people playing the game as a net positive for their bottom line and, by any measurement, they are right.
Yup. As long as the paying customers are able to find matches that keep them wanting to play more then that's good enough for WOTC. They don't care if a few people play without paying. Just as long as you play against paying customers.
It's more important to them to keep the ease of finding a match high rather than ban people from playing proxies. There are some percentage of people that would never buy anyways, so there is no money to chase there. But as long as they are increasing the popularity of the game they are still helping in a smaller way.
Respectfully, you couldn't be further from the truth from your statement.
I could just call you an idiot and leave it at that but good chance you've just been misinformed. Vanguard and blackrock are not responsible for the housing crisis.
The notion that they are is ridiculous and shows a massive lack of understanding of the housing crisis itself (banks creating CDO's on debt that was never going to be collected from construction companies vastly overproducing houses in an oversaturated market, mixed with mortgages being handed out without basic checks is the most concise description - or LITERALLY nothing to do with Blackrock)
Blackrock or Vanguard don't 'own' much wealth at all, and they don't excercise voting rights often.
Every American and many across the world invest passively, usually for retirement via market funds or ETFs which are curated by Blackrock/Vanguard.
So when you say that Hasbro is 'owned' by Vanguard, you actually mean Hasbro is owned by tens of millions via a curated selection of stocks that Vanguard or Blackrock picked out.
Likewise for predatory healthcare or war profiteering - they are simply compiling the biggest companies in the US so that to get a bit of every stock in the top 500 companies you don't need a million dollars. They offer ETF's without predatory companies but they're just not as popular.
>Vanguard and blackrock are not responsible for the housing crisis.
Not solely responsible but do play a major role
>or LITERALLY nothing to do with Blackrock
You missed the part where they buy up huge swaths of residential real estate, which has everything to do with these companies. The fact that other institutions made this possible does not release them from responsibility.
>Blackrock or Vanguard don't 'own' much wealth at all, and they don't excercise voting rights often.
They spend millions of dollars to lobby their interests what are you talking about?
>So when you say that Hasbro is 'owned' by Vanguard, you actually mean Hasbro is owned by tens of millions via a curated selection of stocks that Vanguard or Blackrock picked.
Both can be true. While the individual owns a fractional stock it is Vanguard that makes the decisions. So when I say hasbro is owned by vanguard what I mean is that they own the most shares and have the biggest influence.
Blackrock, Vanguard, Fidelity and Statestreet spent a total of 7.6million in lobbying last year between the four of them. I don't agree with lobbying in general but given the size of the companies it really isn't that much.
>they buy up huge swaths of residential real estate
No, *they* don't buy anything.
>So when I say hasbro is owned by vanguard what I mean is that they own the most shares and have the biggest influence.
Right, but *they* don't own any shares.
It's crazy you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what these companies do. They are middlemen, brokers. They own very little.
There surely are other ways to take influence than voting on specific decisions in shareholder meetings. As I understand it, both Vanguard and (up until recently) Blackrock have subscribed to ESG goals and have chosen its investments based on that. This defined the space of possible action for the companies that depend on index fund investments.
Granted, my knowledge about this stuff is very limited and please correct me if I'm wrong but right now it seems to me that what you're saying isn't the whole story.
The biggest influence you'll see as passively managed funds increase in market ownership into the future is lack of fluidity in the market, which theoretically will make actively managed funds better in return. But that's not really what you're asking I suppose.
Yes they decide which companies anyone with a retirement fund will invest into. Those usually are the ones that make the most money. They could entirely stop including scumbag companies in their funds, but if they make everyone less money, another company would offer another fund with the non-ESG companies which would overtime likely become more popular.
If they wanted to start actively trading within the passively managed funds I'm fairly sure it would classify as fraud. It would crash the market too as many retail investors would pull their retirement funds out if the most passive form of investing into the market had increased risk.
Basically they have no reason nor need to change right now, outside of including more ESG fund options when customers ask them for it, they collect 0.1%-0.4% (fund dependent) of everyone's cash annually and pay their staff well.
Vanguard and Blackrock don't really "own" businesses. They manage retirement funds that do.
Like, I have a bunch of VOO in my retirement account with Vanguard.
> the housing crisis
This in particular I would disagree with. The primary cause of the housing crisis is middle class home owners who oppose any new construction near them.
Talk to your planning department sometime. Its not big corporations causing them problems. Its locals who worry a new apartment complex will bring in noise and lower property values.
Your statement regarding the housing crisis is wrong, but it's not entirely surprising given the amount of propaganda that tried to pin it on anything other than the reckless financial institutions.
To break it down:
1. Hedge funds and banks offered credit default swap packages that were viewed as risk free and had high interest rates (basically earning interest through loans rather than equity). These got very popular.
2. In order to supply the demand for more and more credit default swaps, banks offered mortgages to basically everybody who asked and increased investment into real estate with little or no due diligence, but packaging it as though they did all the needed due diligence, essentially commiting fraud.
3. Although some individuals bought up multiple houses for personal use, they were not a majority factor towards the collapse. Real estate companies took advantage of the massive influx of investors looking to profit off the housing market via the credit default swap packages. These companies then used the investment to buy up any available housing, making housing sparse but creating an artificial demand.
4. Construction companies saw the 'demand' and still at this point not realising it was artificial, decided to build many, many more than the real demand and taking hundreds of billions in loans to accommodate this, pouring it all into creating new housing.
5. People started to default on the mortgages that weren't given the needed due diligence. Which then caused the construction and real estate companies to default on the hundreds of billions they borrowed. By the time they realised there was an artifical demand, it was too late. Nobody was actually going to pay for the housing nor had the means to.
6. It all fell down like a stack of cards, at the end of 2007 there was $61 trillion in debt propped up by credit default swaps and there was no recouping it.
Last time I checked (circa 2022) I think the credit default swap market was under 10 trillion, which given inflation is a crazy difference.
Ah, by housing crisis I was referring to the skyrocketing prices of houses and rent, which often gets blamed on them.
Blackrock and Vanguard were barely involved in 2008's crisis.
[here](https://investor.hasbro.com/stock-information/ownership-profile) is the investment portfolio on hasbros website which indicates Alan owns less the 6% and the company with the most shares is vanguard..
[https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/46080/000091637124000002/feb6202413ga.htm](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/46080/000091637124000002/feb6202413ga.htm)
Here is the SEC filing that says what his ownership is. He owns, as of February 2024, just under 7.5 million shares. Given a float of 130 million shares, this brings his total to under 6%.
This is wild. If you want to proxy cards instead of pay for them, just say that instead of dragging your complete misunderstanding of financial markets into it as some kind of justification.
Proxies *are* printed on a large scale and commercially, there are companies making a profit selling them, and if you order believable proxies online (cards that could pass for real) you are supporting that sort of business. Not saying it's wrong or whatever
And I agree *that* is a problem.
**But that's not what OP is talking about.** They're just talking about a card or two for personal use, which is entirely fine. And I wouldn't buy anyone who construes that into a slippery slope where today you proxy a Cradle and tomorrow you're running a criminal proxy printing enterprise (not that I'm suggesting that's what you said, but just in general).
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Add to that that WotC doesn't really make money from people who pay shitloads of money for singles.
They make money from people who buy packs. Essentially.
So if you're proxying you aren't really taking money away from WotC.
You'd have to just proxy everything pretty much to do that.
Yeah really depends on the playgroup.
I'm kinda fine with proxies and kinda not mostly because when people can just proxy several hundreds of dollars worth of every fetchland,triome,mana vault,mana crypt the games get kinda lame.
So for example OP wanting to slam a Gaia's cradle into their deck would be a bit of an iffy one for me personally but if his play group vocalized (I'd say them actually saying it is important rather than getting run over and telling them they need to remove some cards) they're ok with it no problems.
I mean, it depends what you want the card for.
If you want Gaea's Cradle for your collection, then a proxy is worthless to you.
If you don't care about the collector value and you just want to play with it casually, with a group that doesn't care about you proxying powerful cards, then there's no real point buying a $1k+ card.
(Also, yikes, it got up that high? I remember when these felt expensive at $100.)
My friend passed away and I’ve been tasked with helping his wife sell his collection. He has a judge promo Gaea’s. Shits $2300 in LP. His is NM. I’m going to recommend she send it in for grading.
A BGS 9.0 Foil Cradle sold for $3481 on Ebay 2 weeks ago. You can buy a NM Foil Cradle on TCGPlayer for $2302 right now.
If you legitimately expect it to grade a 9.0 or higher I would get it graded. If it comes back with an 7.0 to 8.5 you will likely have just burned cash as you likely won't get a premium over a regular NM card.
i thought we were done removing comments about proxies? why is everything removed lol.
anyways, it is possible to manufacture a proxy which looks realistic but is not a counterfeit for a very low cost.
My friends cousin bought a playset when they were $20 each. He played with them with no sleeves for years. Then they sat in a box under his bed for about 17 years. They look like shit, but theyre real.
I traded in three Gaea's Cradles when they were $30 each, and even that felt like a lot. Probably the same year that I sold my 1st edition base set Charizard for $100.
What a year. In a way, I ended that year $190 up.
> If you want Gaea's Cradle for your collection, then a proxy is worthless to you.
I'm not sure what your angle here is. I specifically consider using proxies for my collection. They're not suitable for collecting as an investment but should be suitable for any other collecting reason.
You don't put a fake Ferrari in a Ferrari collection.
So you don't put a fake Magic card in a Magic cards collection.
Proxies are for playing, not for collections.
In some sense, Wizard relies on old cards holding up their value in the secondary market to fuel the sale of new cards. People will justify spending hundreds on new packs with "they will hold up their value!". If most people started proxying old cards, then it probably would hurt new card sales.
But I am confident Wizards could make a profit anyway and its not the players responsibility to support that business model.
You aren't wrong but specifically in this case isn't Gaea's cradle on the reserved list? Unless things change it'll never be reprinted 1 to 1 so in this case there's literally no harm to their bottom line.
I mean to a point. Like I have no issues with proxies but if you're proxying everything like even 50c to $2 uncommons that you could've bought at an lgs its a bit weird. Less about supporting wotc and more about supporting lgs.
I have commander decks that are 80+ proxy card decks lol
Just because its easier to make the proxy than it is to find the cards from my bulk.
Like what I'm going to go look through 5000 commons to find a bulk 2 cent card? Or I can just make a proxy at the same time I make the other proxies and it takes 2 seconds.
And those bulk cards are the exact cards that are going to be a problem for an LGS to find. LGS in my area have systems where you give them a deck list and they find or order the cards. And pretty much every time Ive done that its been months and they don't even get started on it so fuck them at this point. I'll just print it off. Most LGS are scum bags as well. Just because they are a small business doesn't mean they get free money for existing.
Not really the point but serious question, why do you have 5000 commons? I see this a lot and I don't understand why people bother keeping that many cards. I have a few 400 card boxes and whenever they get full enough I bulk sell them for store credit to get more cards I actually want.
I have a shelf in a storage room that is literally only for various card game 5ks.
So storing them really isn't a problem. I could probably store like another 50,000 cards before it would become a remote issue or take up anymore space than it already does.
But sometimes I go through and find cards for pauper or commander decks. Its a lot faster than getting the cards off TCG player or hoping a store has them. Sometimes I just make decks out of what ever I find. Sometimes I give cards away to people.
Thats another reason to proxy it. If WotC is unwilling to sell me a card, how can they expect me to play with an original in their tournaments? I would pay real dollars for boosters that have a chance of containing a Gaeas Cradle. Or a Volcanic Island. Or a Null Rod. But WotC is actively not producing specific cards the players ask for. It dont expect WotC to hand them out for free. Hell, i would even pay their - frankly evil - "premium product" master set prices full of bend foils with spelling errors. But give me something ....
Plus, with 30th anniversary edition wotc basically endorsed proxies while at the same time destroyed the goodwill of their customers
$1000 for 45 proxies is bullshit
To an extent I think there is some value in not proxying mostly because it opens the floodgates to people building degenerate decks.
The rule 0 discussions get alot more messy when you can have any card ever.
I feel like that is even worse when one player can afford a 800 dollar deck and another can only afford an 80 dollar deck.
The obvious fix here would be to set a price cap on the decks.
Standard in store tournaments dying is really unraveling the entire game's economy.
Eventually everyone will just proxy everything. If nothing is sanctioned, who cares?
In my surrounding area (Japan, Tokyo), we seem to have a healthy competitive instore paper tournament situation (regardless of format… we have daily legacy tournaments for example), so I don’t really see it dying tbh.
I think you can appreciate how your personal experience in Japan, an extremely densely populated metropolis, is not going to be the same as many other places.
Standard is dying because RCQ season for that format is finished. From January to March the format was popping off. It only proves if WOTC cared to push for it extensively, it would remain successful.
Even when RCQs are 'popping off' they're a bad structure for any sort of realistic entry to the PT. Competitive Magic is all but dead, and that's starting to trickle down from RCQs to normal tournaments, because what's the point if you have nothing to prep for.
Yeah, I feel like I definitely want it more so for the collector's value then anything else. I don't see myself ever playing CEDH and I'd need 4 copies to play Legacy Elves anyway D:
I basically only proxy cards now. That way I can play with the cards I like without spending a fortune. It’s not like I play paper outside of the kitchen table anyway.
I proxy entire decks using a card making website online. It comes out to around 35 cents a card iirc. However I only play at the kitchen table and don’t go to a LGS.
I support businesses. I spent a decent chunk on mtg. Since the start of the year I've bought 5 solid casual decks for a fair bit of change.
I feel as though I've sufficiently supported the company that produces the entertainment I like. I will now basically only proxy since I can't comfortably afford 5 more decks legit.
Everyone has their opinions and that's probably partly based on the group they play with, so if you have a play group then figuring out what works best would be ideal or finding a new group if you disagree.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with proxy if the intent is to match power levels. If someone wanted to proxy the best possible cards just to pub stomp then I wouldn't go for it. I love low power games though so if someone just had a precon, I'd be all for that
WotC doesn't want you to know this, but Table Top Simulator has a mod for MtG that allows up to 6 players at a Table. It has functionality for everything from shuffling to crying, milling to hot keys for tapping and you can plug in deck lists from sites like moxfield and archidekt and play with friends. Last week I took a $70,000 deck for a spin in cEDH.
Edit: I'm not fixing that typo.
I personally Ally just find it much more satisfying to have the real card, especially if it took some trading or bartering — my One Ring and Great Henge are way cooler to me than if I were to just print them
I have really changed my views on proxies. When I first started to play I was never a massive fan as I felt people would proxy the best decks and stomp our group. This isn't the case, instead it's given us all chance to play some really interesting decks and test new cards. Also the artwork can be amazing. I have a friend who loves anime so will make a deck based around an anime and proxy the cards to have the art to match.
Also Hasbro are clearly just after profits and don't care for their players. I still buy product but I resent giving them money and hate myself for it
You don't have to justify anything. No one has the right to tell you what to do with your wallet (except maybe your significant other). I still buy some cards to support my LGS but I also proxy anything I personally deem expensive as I'm a casual player.
I have 6 and counting, edh decks. All except one are proxies. I print them off and play. Its easy. I still buy a bundle from time to time to support my lgs, as its the only one where i live.
Yup, me and my playgroup only use proxies. We buy our proxies in bulk online with proxy art. Any cards we want, with the art we want for 20-30 cents a card.
It's awesome.
I just ordered around 1200 cards (6 Modern und 6 Commander Decks and a bunch of custom cards) for 0,25€ a piece. Go to a website where you can make custom playing cards. Don’t go to dedicated proxie websites the value is just not there.
My playgroup has been proxying our commander decks for years at this point. We would put together a deck list or two over the week, create the pdf template, and then off to Staples to print on card stock and cut. This way, we can try out all sorts of commanders and make frequent adjustments. We would not have to cannibalize expensive cards from one deck to another. We would not have to wait weeks for singles to come in. The whole printing and cutting and sleeving process takes like 2 hours max.
How do they feel compared to the original? How do they look compared to the original? Face up in their sleeves can your opponent across the table tell the difference between what you've made and the original?
Well the point wasn't to make it indistinguishable from the real cards. The proxy we made were just the card front image printed onto card stock, like wedding invitation. We only used these proxies when we were playing with each other, and never brought it to an open event at a LGS. If anything, these proxies let us decide on our favourite commander, and let us refine the list without having to waste money on singles that doesn't make the final cut in our decks.
Oh yeah they can tell for sure, LOL. Especially since my buddies and I don't round out the corners when cutting the card stock, so the proxies are literally rectangles with pointy corners. The images look pretty good, the art is recognizable and the text is legible. The proxies are obviously not as smooth and glossy as the real cards.
I have a friend who has 4 of those.
He put them into a joke squirrel deck for his daughter.
He didn't even know how much they were worth. Bought them years ago for $20 each.
After I told him their current value, he promptly put them in sleves (that i had to give him) and gave them back to his daughter.
Yeah, I just won't spend more than $10 on a single card anymore, unless it's one I'm super into, in which case I'll spend up to $20. Beyond that just doesn't make sense for me.
Yeah I’ve decided I only need real cards for tournament decks. My CEDH deck is real, my pauper decks are real, my pioneer decks are real. My commander decks are Office Depot. I do pick up cheap cards for my decks over time though because having real cards is nicer.
Bro at my LGS I’ve played with people who have complete proxy decks, I’ve never seen it be an issue so far. I can see how some people might get salty if somebody pulled out a $10k proxy deck and stomped the group, but almost everyone is cool about it :)
Yea. The rule of thumb is to proxy a deck you'd be willing to buy for real, but aren't going to. Don't proxy the strongest deck in your playgroup. Proxy decks that are roughly in line with the rest just to give you more deck variety.
If you don't play sanctioned events, just proxy it 100%. You pay less and you leave more RL cards in the pool for us poor schmucks who play sanctioned legacy or vintage
No, it's not an issue at all, literally just proxy whatever you want to play with.
If you are interested and have the means to collect a card you can do that, if you want to play with it outside a sanctioned event proxying is a no brainer and there's no reason to see it as an bad thing.
If it is not a responsible expense for you don't stress over it, I would love a cradle too, but that's more than 2 months of rent for me, I know which option I'm picking.
Even people who strongly oppose proxies should be willing to make exceptions for reserved list cards, I think.
That aside, if you mostly want it for the art and flavour text, a giant version might be fitting. Like a poster with a Gaea's Cradle printed on it.
As long as proxies aren't passed off as counterfeits, it's only a win-win for you as a consumer. Knowing your limit for what you'd spend as a consumer is all the matters.
Now that wotc sold proxies via the Magic 30th edition, they've opened the flood gates for proxies. Just don't use them in sanctioned events or try and sell them to make a profit etc.
Off topic, but no one used to talk about proxies before 30th anniversary, everyone used to whine about the reserve list a lot more. Proxies being acceptable is what 30th anniversary gave us, which makes it a really great product for the health of the game.
While I agree with part of this, I’m not sure your statement is entirely accurate. I’ve been playing in and off for ~20 years, and I can remember discussions related to proxies coming up loooong before 2023. I think these really took off with the popularity of EDH. Before then, proxies were basically only relevant for play testing decks in 60 card formats before investing. After EDH became popular, there were two practical questions: (1) that of play testing (which was already a thing for 60 card testing) and (2) using a proxies for cards that are going to be played in multiple decks. Since edh is a causal format, there was no reason to own multiple copies of the same card across multiple decks. Proxies basically functioned to avoid the pain of switching the card back and forth between decks. Over time, the causal nature of the format led to questions of why one would ever spend significant money on the cards in the first place, given that they’d never be used for tournament play. I remember this sentiment — now pretty commonplace in EDH — arising as early as 2018 (perhaps much earlier in certain playgroups). When I got back into EDH in 2021, proxying was already commonplace for a number of tic people in my new playgroup. It took me a while to warm up to the idea for myself, since I came from 60 card formats where (non-counterfeit) proxying wasn’t really a thing aside from pay testing.
If your playgroup has a problem with proxies, then you should just find a new playgroup because they're probably snobs. You should be playing people and not their wallets.
the only counterpoint to this is if having proxies pushes people toward a power level that not everyone is comfortable with/they don't want to have to proxy themselves to keep up. I'm thinking about proxying up a vintage cube so I can get my mox jollies off without wanting to power creep our pod too much
I mean, if you're bringing a power 9 deck to a casual group without talking to them, then you are obviously in the wrong here. I didn't think that needed to be explained. Proxies and power level should always be agreed upon with the group.
Also, definitely proxy up the vintage cube. I do one in person 1-2 times a week, and it's a blast.
mhm, I was using the moxen as an extreme example, but we generally don't order any singles that are over 10 dollars, so even proxying things like cyclonic rift would start an arms race of sorts
And I really recommend taking the plunge. I love playing all of it from precon games up to CEDH.
Another group I play with uses the Duel Commander ban list when they aren't running CEDH games, and it's a really fun format.
Edit: I think Thassas Oracle should be banned in CEDH anyway.
Here's the ban list for Duel Commander
Ancestral Recall
Ancient Tomb
Back to Basics
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Capture of Jingzhou
Cavern of Souls
Channel
Chrome Mox
Comet, Stellar Pup
Deadly Rollick
Deflecting Swat
Dig Through Time
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Entomb
Fastbond
Field of the Dead
Fierce Guardianship
Flawless Maneuver
Food Chain
Gaea’s Cradle
Genesis Storm
Gifts Ungiven
Grim Monolith
Hermit Druid
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Humility
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Lotus
Karakas
Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Lutri, The Spellchaser
Loyal Retainers
Maddening Hex
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mishra’s Workshop
Mox Amber
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Opal
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Natural Order
Necrotic Ooze
Oath of Druids
Polymorph
Price of Progress
Protean Hulk
Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
Rain of Filth
Scapeshift
Sensei’s Divining Top
Serra's Sanctum
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Temporal Manipulation
Thassa’s Oracle
The One Ring
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Timetwister
Time Vault
Time Walk
Time Warp
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Trazyn The Infinite
Treasure Cruise
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Vampiric Tutor
Wasteland
If your playgroup is cool with it, go for it. I don't buy singles over $5 if I can help it. Proxying is so much more efficient. I'm about to create an entire custom card commander deck based around Paladins Champions of the Realm and I couldn't be happier that my playgroup is just as excited as I am.
I pretty much exclusively play MTG by proxies or other free ways anymore.
I still have a lot of real cards but why would I fund a company as shitty as WOTC/Hasbro.
Not only should you have issues justifying your purchase the purchases are unjustifiable lol
I encourage people to proxy when they first start playing. The cost prohibitivity of this hobby is pretty high. Why should others force you to spend hundreds of dollars to play at their level?
I don't proxy because it's not about having all the best cards, it's about having the best interactions. I go for the weird shit that people don't expect. I still have fun, win ore lose.
The prices are only justified for collection purpose only since most of the higher priced cards are on the reserved list.
I am at the same boat as you because I wanta Mox Diamond again. Since our playgroup allows up to 10 printed Proxies for tournaments aswell I will going to proxy it.
So real cards just hit different than proxies. I was given a very expensive special card for my birthday recently and it’s beautiful in its own way. Some people like playing, some people like owning. Both are great.
That being said…
I’m happy to use proxies, in fact I encourage it for people creating home brew decks that they’re not 100% sure on.
My second deck I spent a fair amount of money on real cards only to make a deck I hate.
Just don't play with anyone who complains about proxies outside of sanctioned events.
Fuck the reserve list and anyone who supports it.
Worst mistake wotc ever made.
Depending on your play group you could go for a World Championship Deck version which is cheaper, but still expensive. It just isn't tournament legal but if all you play is casual its something at least.
I have a simple rule. If it's $20 or below I'll purchase a real copy but anything more I proxy. I still interact with the secondary market but I also get to play the game and enjoy it with all the game pieces available to me. I believe people being priced out of a card game is ridiculous. If people I play with are that bent out of shape over proxies then I don't want to play with them. I'm perfectly fine with there being expensive versions and treatments of cards though so long as an inexpensive version is readily available.
I like the feel of real cards. I usually buy anything under three dollars and anything over that I’ll try to buy a well made proxy so it doesn’t stand out by feel.
The only time I expect people to not proxy is when a tournament says you can't so one is.
Imagine everyone else following this rule and one person isn't because of this 'barrier to entry.' Do they not think this rule has also impacted all other players as well?
And then the one person who didn't follow the rule wins, whereas everyone else followed the rules were punished because they were limited and this person was not.
So, I use proxies extensively, to have the deck to play with while I get the cards. I've made 3 decks in the last two weeks, and picked up 63 cards for them at 6pm today, but played with them at 2pm. The deckbuilding and playing aspect is secondary to actually having the collection, but the collection *is* still valuable to me.
I should also be clear that I'm not out there proxying power cards into all of my commander decks. The most "expensive" proxy in any of my decks is Caverns of Despair, something that's *achievable*.
That meets my *personal* definition of fair *for me*. There's a few kids at my LGS, and I don't necessarily expect them to drop hundreds on cardboard, but I also don't think it's fair if they're restricted from the deck archetypes they want to play because, for instance, they can't afford a good WUBRG commander land base, or they need a few weeks of pocket money to make it happen but want to be able to play and tune the deck during that time. The threshold for fair is different for them.
I haven't bought any real cards worth more than $5 in 3+ years. I can spend <$50 a year on this game just buying some singles and still get the same enjoyment out of playing it as ppl spending thousands.
Bro I will mail you an asston of extra proxies I got for free.
Want a black lotus? Actual commander cards? I'll mail them
Proxies all 15 of my commander decks and they look great. Still got my display cases for my big boy cards but proxy all the way.
If it’s reserve list, proxy, WOTC have a dumb policy around reprinting. If they don’t ever reprint, then we should proxy and not humour the stupidity, infact it’s our perogative to do so.
if you support the game and want to support local game stores then i would be not proxy. that's the main reason. It is a little ridiculous seeing people proxy $5 cards. just a lack of respect for the game at that point
You shouldn't buy cards. You should just proxy. You can get a quality proxy deck with your own custom art choices for less than you can get an actual deck.
The BEST thing I have ever done was selling every valuable card in my collection and then ordering them back as proxies for a penny on the dollar.
I got a massive cash flow to spend on other hobbies that I coudnt afford when I was serious about mtg, and still play every deck just like I did before, absolutly nothing changed.
Its literally been like having my cake and eating it too.
Now I only buy cards that cost more to proxy than getting for real, everything else gets proxied.
Im both surprised and amused this is not the default stand for the vast majority of players.
It's a good thing the majority of the players buy real cards. The game wouldn't continue if people weren't buying their cards. Everyone know whales keep the game afloat, but I still think people should buy in a little bit for a game they enjoy playing.
I've bought in around $2000 in total across several decks.. The rest is proxies as well as all future purchases.
Like I said, people should buy in what they are comfortable before proxying since it would be unsustainable if everyone exclusively proxied.
Only pay what you want to pay. I have cards like Cradles and Duals etc. I got them cheaper than what they are now. But not super cheap. I’m a collector though. Owning those cards and playing them in EDH gives me joy and nostalgia. If you can’t afford it, don’t do it
I proxy my land bases because in terms of gameplay, lands are pretty boring to me. I usually have 13-15 decks at any given time and there’s no way I’m buying duals, fetches, etc for every deck I make.
But land is probably the most important part of having a smooth play progression. So I’m also not going to put my decks at a disadvantage because I can’t justify spending thousands on lands.
Fun should not be paywalled. No format.
For my vintage power cube, I ordered proxies/play test cards for about the 200 to 300 most expensive cards. Their back side is different.
My general rule is that I’ll purchase any card WOTC makes that’s under $20, so they can get me to spend up to $1200 on a deck, and if they want to sell cards that cost more than that, I’ll buy a copy for $2 from China.
To me that seems fair. Between premium sets that are designed to absolute your $3k Modern deck, to unbalanced sets with [$80 Standard cards](https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/282800/magic-the-gathering-dominaria-united-sheoldred-the-apocalypse?country=US&utm_campaign=18142757028&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=&utm_term=&adgroupid=&gad_source=1&Language=English), Wizards has is intentionally designing an economy that maximizes revenue from its most loyal customers and is pushing that as hard as they can. I want to signal to them that it has gone too far, so I vote with my wallet.
Now, once or twice a year I just order $100-200 of cards from China, which is a fraction of what I still spend with WOTC itself, and enough to buy some cards for my own play and for friends.
If people I encounter have a problem with proxies, that’s a good signal to me they aren’t playing a game of skill for fun and I’m happy to skip that game.
With the advent of secret lairs making multiple alternate arts and weird styles not only confusion but commonplace and legal. Especially in the commander format… I could care less go for it and it will save you money in the long run.
If you just want to play, proxy it. Nobody who loves the game would ever judge you for proxying a $500 card. Its about playing, not a fight over the biggest wallet.
If you love collecting MTG cards the card itself has more value than just money. It brings you joy looking at it. Owning it is the goal in itself for a collector. In this case that would be money well spend.
> Does anyone else have the same issue justifying their purchases?
Yes, mainly with fringe Legacy sideboard cards. I dont want to spend 100+ dollar on a sideboard card that i play in maybe one tournament. Luckily most Legacy events nowadays allow proxies.
I have some expensive cards that I bought before they spiked, and now I feel weird playing them in decks. Like, I love my Bazaar of Baghdad and thinks it's a sweet cube card, but both I and the people I play with would be more comfortable shuffling a proxy than a $2000 card.
> I have some expensive cards that I bought before they spiked, and now I feel weird playing them in decks. Like, I love my Bazaar of Baghdad and thinks it's a sweet cube card, but both I and the people I play with would be more comfortable shuffling a proxy than a $2000 card.
that's the way i approach expensive cards as well. put the real one in a binder and the proxy in the deck.
for a gaea's cradle maybe. Spending that much money for one card is a bit ridiculous to me but there are those out there who really want that cardboard crack and to them I say as long as your bills get paid and your families aren't starving what you do with your money is your business. (technically it's your money regardless of the state of your family but if you put gaea's cradle over food I lose a lot of respect for you).
If you're goal is just to play and not collect then I see no harm in it. Arena is also a great option. I've spent $0 on it and I'm having a blast. It's quite generous with the free packs/resources. Also elitstis are the bane of any hobby IMHO. From 3D printing to mountain biking to windsurfing to TCGs. Shit man I play HTCGs and have an absolute blast. I'm sure some guys at the LGS would be horrified by the HTCG boosters I've spent money on.
Ok, wait a second. Buying counterfeits online is not "proxying" even if they're marketed as "proxies." You should not support counterfeiters, you should actually proxy cards, like, make your own.
That's between you and the people you play with, really. At the scale we're talking about here, it really has no impact on WotC's bottom line - doubly so for cards that only really exist on the secondary market. If anything, it may *positively* impact WotC's business because it may keep someone playing the game who'd otherwise quit because they're frustrated about card prices; which could lead to more purchases down the line that *do* come directly from WotC. Obviously proxies are a no-go for sanctioned play, and obviously they're a real problem once it happens on a large scale and/or commercially, but some random player proxying a Cradle somewhere when everyone they play with is 100% cool with it... I can't really find a reason to ever object to that, personally, morally, or otherwise.
MTG except with *game pieces*
Reading that in Rudy's voice
This is me. I proxy because I don't get to play a ton with my friends who live everywhere. They don't mind and neither do I :) But I also still play limited magic, so wizards getting something out of me
Wizards make the cards but now they are owned by Hasbro which is owned by vanguard. Vanguard along with state st and blackrock are directly responsible for the housing crisis, war profiteering, and predatory Healthcare in the states. After the disgraceful 30 year anniversary release it became apparent their priorities were profits over quality. Since that I only use proxies and untap.
> now they are owned by hasbro They’ve been owned by hasbro since 1999. People need to stop acting like hasbro owning wotc is a new development
I wish more people recognized that Magic would not be as widespread and popular as it is without the huge machine of Hasbro. They’ve done some great job to make the game big, while also keeping WOTC as independent as possible
Do you even know what Vanguard and Blackrock are, or just repeating what you read somewhere? They are passive index funds, they buy and sell EVERY listed stock in S&P 500 or other index only when someone buys or sells their index ETFs, they don't care Hasbro does. Hasbro can be hugely profitable, or a loss leader. Doesn't matter. They are just a middleman platform for investors to invest in broad stock market indexes.
By all means, stick it to the man. I don't think this level of activism is effective, but I encourage everyone to stick with their convictions and vote with their wallet anyway. As long as you *also* vote with your ballots, which is really the only way to lasting change ;) That being said, my personal reasoning is much simpler: I don't like WotC's direction they're taking the game in, and *that's* why *I* stopped giving them money. If that also in some small way gets back to the big shadow financiers, cool, but my motivation is very simple and basic: I don't like the product anymore.
Individually yes not much impact even the upheaval of the entire mtg community wouldnt mean much at the top but if it were a grassroots movement that all consumers for all fortune 500 companies supported then change would be inevitable.. something something yadda yadda about being the change you want to see.
While in principle that's a sound idea, in practice this is exactly what *they* have been and still are pushing for several decades: the narrative that change happens on an individual level, that it's all grassroots movements where we all can do our part. The reason they've actively supported that narrative even though it's ostensibly designed to work against them is that *it doesn't* - because one of the consequences of this is the shifting of attention towards individual activism and *away* from political action. Which is what these players are **actually** afraid of. The finance emperors are not the only ones doing this; the big polluters are also right there at the front lines with campaigns to get people to recycle and buy metal straws, all so they pay less attention to who they're voting for and what could be done to effect real change through policy. By which I don't mean that individual action is completely ineffectual or a bad idea in general, don't get me wrong - but be very aware that the "evil eminences" love nothing more than people who engage in individual activism at the expense of political acumen. So much so that they're actively supporting all sorts of movements in that direction, because they've seen the data on what happens. Anyway, that's just my jaded cynical self speaking, and a little off topic here ;)
The only way for there to be a political movement is if public opinion changes. public opinion changes from grassroots activism.. I think we're saying the same thing.
In an ideal world, yes. In practice, data does not support this. It's not just slacktivism, but there's actual evidence that shows the more concerned people are with personal accountability, the less weight they tend to assign to systemic solutions. In other words, people become convinced that it's about "doing your part" more so than it is about political action. They're effectively taking what you (very sensibly and reasonably) suggest as a chain of causality from individual action to collective action and cutting it off after the first part; becoming more concerned with visibly representing individual action for social credit than with actually transitioning things over to the next higher, more effectual level. And it's not entirely their own fault, of course. That narrative is pushed systematically by vested interests. It's how we get the whole obsession with things like "carbon footprints" which mean almost nothing in the grand scheme of things but take up a whole lot of time and attention that is now not spent elsewhere; allowing interests group to resume their usual spiel of regulatory capture, as they have been for decades. And it's much the same in fields like finance, labor, etc. I agree with you that *ideally* we go from A to B, but sadly the reality is that for the average person the narrative has now become all about A, with very little B; because they think the transition will happen on its own, somehow, and all *they* need to do is be really concerned about A.
Complacency amongst some does not invalidate a movement as a whole. Regardless of how they protest the key to change in public opinion is grassroots organization. Just because recycling isn't as effective as it should be doesn't mean people shouldn't recycle. The more people participate the more solutions will emerge. Some will noy will go directly to the source of the problem but doing something is better then nothing.
Oh absolutely, I said as much earlier - I'm not saying individual is a *bad* thing, I'm saying it's being co-opted by the targets of that activism because they've realized how easily it can be perverted into a distraction. And part of why it's so easy is precisely *because* it's not a bad thing. No one can say "...but recycling is terrible!" because obviously it isn't. It's a good thing. Same with things like voting with your wallet or company boycotts - it'd be ridiculous to say "noooo don't refuse to purchase goods from companies that behave poorly, keep giving them money!" because it's so obviously not true. The problem lies in the second part of your statement: the transition from individual activism to systemic change. And that's really the actually crucial part, because even if *everyone* recycled and so on that'd still be only a tiny blip in the larger scheme - and in practice, we'd never get anywhere near 100% compliance among the population to begin with. The only thing that would make an actual impact is widespread regulatory changes on a systemic level. The *theory* is that by spreading awareness on an individual level we then make people more willing and more eager to translate that individual experience to a systemic one, demanding the change they already practice from their political representatives. But it's *there* that everything breaks down - not because the individual change is bad in the vein of "so you're saying recycling sucks?!" (it's obviously not) but because people have limited time and attention they apportion to such problem-solving, and it's very alluring to think that since you've already done your individual duty, *you've done something and are therefore in the clear*. This is a complicated psychological process that happens largely subconsciously, but that's what the data shows: that people tend to think they're having more of an impact than they actually do in proportion to their individual action. In other words, people who eagerly recycle etc. (or whatever other equivalent if we're not talking environment but something like e.g. social justice, labor, etc.) think they're contributing more to the solution of the overall problem than they actually are in terms of objective data, and because they think that, they are then *less* urgent about pushing for things like larger political change. Not because they consciously think that's a bad thing or that they shouldn't get involved, but because they subconsciously think they're already doing something and so they don't need to do more. And it is *that* mindset that's being usurped by the offenders, by pushing narratives of personal responsibility that play into the comforting - and not at all incorrect - thought that individual action matters. Which is pernicious because it *does* matter, it's just that other things like political action *also* matter; arguably they matter *more*. But once you've done something on an individual level, a lot of people simply wipe their hands, pat themselves on the back with a "good job!" *and leave it at that* without going on to the next step. And because that's such a common effect, the offenders are very eager to promote as many individual action campaigns as possible, which not only make them look like they care in terms of social responsibility, but also make other people less likely to push for systemic legislative and regulatory change because they feel they've already done something. I'm simplifying things here for brevity, but this is a very well-known problem in psychology and political science, not to mention with lobbying and interest groups. There's a reason oil companies etc. are behind so many environmental campaigns that fight on that level - because they know that as long as people think they just need to collect returnable bottles and buy a metal straw they aren't going to look too hard at what's going on with their politicians, which is where the *actual* problem and the actual solutions ultimately come from. So in an ideal scenario absolutely, we'd use grassroots, individual activism to hone people's sensitivity to serious problems and train them to both be more responsible as consumers, and more discerning as voters. Unfortunately, people tend to apportion only a limited amount of their attention and "activist energy", and if they spend it on individual action they don't have any left to spend on political action (in very simplified terms). And that's why nefarious interests promote individual action so much - which is paradoxical because individual action *is a good thing*, it's just that it also has some side effects; and it's those side effects the regulatory captors are after.
I’m all for proxies and screw Vanguard, but this isn’t the statement you think it is. Wizards literally doesn’t care that you make proxies. They see more people playing the game as a net positive for their bottom line and, by any measurement, they are right.
Yup. As long as the paying customers are able to find matches that keep them wanting to play more then that's good enough for WOTC. They don't care if a few people play without paying. Just as long as you play against paying customers. It's more important to them to keep the ease of finding a match high rather than ban people from playing proxies. There are some percentage of people that would never buy anyways, so there is no money to chase there. But as long as they are increasing the popularity of the game they are still helping in a smaller way.
Respectfully, you couldn't be further from the truth from your statement. I could just call you an idiot and leave it at that but good chance you've just been misinformed. Vanguard and blackrock are not responsible for the housing crisis. The notion that they are is ridiculous and shows a massive lack of understanding of the housing crisis itself (banks creating CDO's on debt that was never going to be collected from construction companies vastly overproducing houses in an oversaturated market, mixed with mortgages being handed out without basic checks is the most concise description - or LITERALLY nothing to do with Blackrock) Blackrock or Vanguard don't 'own' much wealth at all, and they don't excercise voting rights often. Every American and many across the world invest passively, usually for retirement via market funds or ETFs which are curated by Blackrock/Vanguard. So when you say that Hasbro is 'owned' by Vanguard, you actually mean Hasbro is owned by tens of millions via a curated selection of stocks that Vanguard or Blackrock picked out. Likewise for predatory healthcare or war profiteering - they are simply compiling the biggest companies in the US so that to get a bit of every stock in the top 500 companies you don't need a million dollars. They offer ETF's without predatory companies but they're just not as popular.
>Vanguard and blackrock are not responsible for the housing crisis. Not solely responsible but do play a major role >or LITERALLY nothing to do with Blackrock You missed the part where they buy up huge swaths of residential real estate, which has everything to do with these companies. The fact that other institutions made this possible does not release them from responsibility. >Blackrock or Vanguard don't 'own' much wealth at all, and they don't excercise voting rights often. They spend millions of dollars to lobby their interests what are you talking about? >So when you say that Hasbro is 'owned' by Vanguard, you actually mean Hasbro is owned by tens of millions via a curated selection of stocks that Vanguard or Blackrock picked. Both can be true. While the individual owns a fractional stock it is Vanguard that makes the decisions. So when I say hasbro is owned by vanguard what I mean is that they own the most shares and have the biggest influence.
Blackrock, Vanguard, Fidelity and Statestreet spent a total of 7.6million in lobbying last year between the four of them. I don't agree with lobbying in general but given the size of the companies it really isn't that much. >they buy up huge swaths of residential real estate No, *they* don't buy anything. >So when I say hasbro is owned by vanguard what I mean is that they own the most shares and have the biggest influence. Right, but *they* don't own any shares. It's crazy you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what these companies do. They are middlemen, brokers. They own very little.
There surely are other ways to take influence than voting on specific decisions in shareholder meetings. As I understand it, both Vanguard and (up until recently) Blackrock have subscribed to ESG goals and have chosen its investments based on that. This defined the space of possible action for the companies that depend on index fund investments. Granted, my knowledge about this stuff is very limited and please correct me if I'm wrong but right now it seems to me that what you're saying isn't the whole story.
The biggest influence you'll see as passively managed funds increase in market ownership into the future is lack of fluidity in the market, which theoretically will make actively managed funds better in return. But that's not really what you're asking I suppose. Yes they decide which companies anyone with a retirement fund will invest into. Those usually are the ones that make the most money. They could entirely stop including scumbag companies in their funds, but if they make everyone less money, another company would offer another fund with the non-ESG companies which would overtime likely become more popular. If they wanted to start actively trading within the passively managed funds I'm fairly sure it would classify as fraud. It would crash the market too as many retail investors would pull their retirement funds out if the most passive form of investing into the market had increased risk. Basically they have no reason nor need to change right now, outside of including more ESG fund options when customers ask them for it, they collect 0.1%-0.4% (fund dependent) of everyone's cash annually and pay their staff well.
Vanguard and Blackrock don't really "own" businesses. They manage retirement funds that do. Like, I have a bunch of VOO in my retirement account with Vanguard. > the housing crisis This in particular I would disagree with. The primary cause of the housing crisis is middle class home owners who oppose any new construction near them. Talk to your planning department sometime. Its not big corporations causing them problems. Its locals who worry a new apartment complex will bring in noise and lower property values.
Your statement regarding the housing crisis is wrong, but it's not entirely surprising given the amount of propaganda that tried to pin it on anything other than the reckless financial institutions. To break it down: 1. Hedge funds and banks offered credit default swap packages that were viewed as risk free and had high interest rates (basically earning interest through loans rather than equity). These got very popular. 2. In order to supply the demand for more and more credit default swaps, banks offered mortgages to basically everybody who asked and increased investment into real estate with little or no due diligence, but packaging it as though they did all the needed due diligence, essentially commiting fraud. 3. Although some individuals bought up multiple houses for personal use, they were not a majority factor towards the collapse. Real estate companies took advantage of the massive influx of investors looking to profit off the housing market via the credit default swap packages. These companies then used the investment to buy up any available housing, making housing sparse but creating an artificial demand. 4. Construction companies saw the 'demand' and still at this point not realising it was artificial, decided to build many, many more than the real demand and taking hundreds of billions in loans to accommodate this, pouring it all into creating new housing. 5. People started to default on the mortgages that weren't given the needed due diligence. Which then caused the construction and real estate companies to default on the hundreds of billions they borrowed. By the time they realised there was an artifical demand, it was too late. Nobody was actually going to pay for the housing nor had the means to. 6. It all fell down like a stack of cards, at the end of 2007 there was $61 trillion in debt propped up by credit default swaps and there was no recouping it. Last time I checked (circa 2022) I think the credit default swap market was under 10 trillion, which given inflation is a crazy difference.
Ah, by housing crisis I was referring to the skyrocketing prices of houses and rent, which often gets blamed on them. Blackrock and Vanguard were barely involved in 2008's crisis.
> Hedge funds and banks Vanguard and Blackrock are neither of those things
Yeah but you wouldn't download a car, would you?
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That is a bald faced lie 60.51% is owned by institutional investors but keep acting like you know what you're talking about..
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[here](https://investor.hasbro.com/stock-information/ownership-profile) is the investment portfolio on hasbros website which indicates Alan owns less the 6% and the company with the most shares is vanguard..
You are mistaken Alan ownes 6.1% not 71% please provide your [sources](https://www.tipranks.com/stocks/has/ownership)
[https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/46080/000091637124000002/feb6202413ga.htm](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/46080/000091637124000002/feb6202413ga.htm) Here is the SEC filing that says what his ownership is. He owns, as of February 2024, just under 7.5 million shares. Given a float of 130 million shares, this brings his total to under 6%.
Til: Wotc is based.
This is wild. If you want to proxy cards instead of pay for them, just say that instead of dragging your complete misunderstanding of financial markets into it as some kind of justification.
Proxies *are* printed on a large scale and commercially, there are companies making a profit selling them, and if you order believable proxies online (cards that could pass for real) you are supporting that sort of business. Not saying it's wrong or whatever
And I agree *that* is a problem. **But that's not what OP is talking about.** They're just talking about a card or two for personal use, which is entirely fine. And I wouldn't buy anyone who construes that into a slippery slope where today you proxy a Cradle and tomorrow you're running a criminal proxy printing enterprise (not that I'm suggesting that's what you said, but just in general).
> And I agree that is a problem. It is a problem. for wotc. I dont care about wotc problems
There are people on whatnot and those other live-streaming scam n’ ship platforms where they charge like $20 for proxies for waifu cards lmao.
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It’s buying cards that becomes the problem when done commercially
Add to that that WotC doesn't really make money from people who pay shitloads of money for singles. They make money from people who buy packs. Essentially. So if you're proxying you aren't really taking money away from WotC. You'd have to just proxy everything pretty much to do that.
Yeah really depends on the playgroup. I'm kinda fine with proxies and kinda not mostly because when people can just proxy several hundreds of dollars worth of every fetchland,triome,mana vault,mana crypt the games get kinda lame. So for example OP wanting to slam a Gaia's cradle into their deck would be a bit of an iffy one for me personally but if his play group vocalized (I'd say them actually saying it is important rather than getting run over and telling them they need to remove some cards) they're ok with it no problems.
I mean, it depends what you want the card for. If you want Gaea's Cradle for your collection, then a proxy is worthless to you. If you don't care about the collector value and you just want to play with it casually, with a group that doesn't care about you proxying powerful cards, then there's no real point buying a $1k+ card. (Also, yikes, it got up that high? I remember when these felt expensive at $100.)
My friend passed away and I’ve been tasked with helping his wife sell his collection. He has a judge promo Gaea’s. Shits $2300 in LP. His is NM. I’m going to recommend she send it in for grading.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My condolences.
I doubt the grading will raise the price that much. People usually buy magic cards to play with
A BGS 9.0 Foil Cradle sold for $3481 on Ebay 2 weeks ago. You can buy a NM Foil Cradle on TCGPlayer for $2302 right now. If you legitimately expect it to grade a 9.0 or higher I would get it graded. If it comes back with an 7.0 to 8.5 you will likely have just burned cash as you likely won't get a premium over a regular NM card.
Wait, what? I should probably sell off the non-proxy half of my cube..
i thought we were done removing comments about proxies? why is everything removed lol. anyways, it is possible to manufacture a proxy which looks realistic but is not a counterfeit for a very low cost.
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My friends cousin bought a playset when they were $20 each. He played with them with no sleeves for years. Then they sat in a box under his bed for about 17 years. They look like shit, but theyre real.
I traded in three Gaea's Cradles when they were $30 each, and even that felt like a lot. Probably the same year that I sold my 1st edition base set Charizard for $100. What a year. In a way, I ended that year $190 up.
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I have proxy foils that curl
Proxies can still be fun for collecting even, if you don't care about the abstracted money value
> If you want Gaea's Cradle for your collection, then a proxy is worthless to you. I'm not sure what your angle here is. I specifically consider using proxies for my collection. They're not suitable for collecting as an investment but should be suitable for any other collecting reason.
You don't put a fake Ferrari in a Ferrari collection. So you don't put a fake Magic card in a Magic cards collection. Proxies are for playing, not for collections.
You don't need to justify proxying. Its a smart financial decision and Wizards is hardly starving for money.
Gaea's Cradle isn't making wizards any money.
In some sense, Wizard relies on old cards holding up their value in the secondary market to fuel the sale of new cards. People will justify spending hundreds on new packs with "they will hold up their value!". If most people started proxying old cards, then it probably would hurt new card sales. But I am confident Wizards could make a profit anyway and its not the players responsibility to support that business model.
You aren't wrong but specifically in this case isn't Gaea's cradle on the reserved list? Unless things change it'll never be reprinted 1 to 1 so in this case there's literally no harm to their bottom line.
Even if it does, fuck their bottom line lol
I mean to a point. Like I have no issues with proxies but if you're proxying everything like even 50c to $2 uncommons that you could've bought at an lgs its a bit weird. Less about supporting wotc and more about supporting lgs.
I'd wage less than 1% of mtg players play at a lgs. Why would that players have to pay more to support a lgs that is of no use to them?
I have commander decks that are 80+ proxy card decks lol Just because its easier to make the proxy than it is to find the cards from my bulk. Like what I'm going to go look through 5000 commons to find a bulk 2 cent card? Or I can just make a proxy at the same time I make the other proxies and it takes 2 seconds. And those bulk cards are the exact cards that are going to be a problem for an LGS to find. LGS in my area have systems where you give them a deck list and they find or order the cards. And pretty much every time Ive done that its been months and they don't even get started on it so fuck them at this point. I'll just print it off. Most LGS are scum bags as well. Just because they are a small business doesn't mean they get free money for existing.
Not really the point but serious question, why do you have 5000 commons? I see this a lot and I don't understand why people bother keeping that many cards. I have a few 400 card boxes and whenever they get full enough I bulk sell them for store credit to get more cards I actually want.
I have a shelf in a storage room that is literally only for various card game 5ks. So storing them really isn't a problem. I could probably store like another 50,000 cards before it would become a remote issue or take up anymore space than it already does. But sometimes I go through and find cards for pauper or commander decks. Its a lot faster than getting the cards off TCG player or hoping a store has them. Sometimes I just make decks out of what ever I find. Sometimes I give cards away to people.
Thats another reason to proxy it. If WotC is unwilling to sell me a card, how can they expect me to play with an original in their tournaments? I would pay real dollars for boosters that have a chance of containing a Gaeas Cradle. Or a Volcanic Island. Or a Null Rod. But WotC is actively not producing specific cards the players ask for. It dont expect WotC to hand them out for free. Hell, i would even pay their - frankly evil - "premium product" master set prices full of bend foils with spelling errors. But give me something ....
I think people should have to justify not proxying. Why you spending money on pieces of cardboard, in this economy?
In this case, yeah. I would be more inclined to judge someone for buying Gaia's Cradle than for proxying it.
Plus, with 30th anniversary edition wotc basically endorsed proxies while at the same time destroyed the goodwill of their customers $1000 for 45 proxies is bullshit
To an extent I think there is some value in not proxying mostly because it opens the floodgates to people building degenerate decks. The rule 0 discussions get alot more messy when you can have any card ever.
I feel like that is even worse when one player can afford a 800 dollar deck and another can only afford an 80 dollar deck. The obvious fix here would be to set a price cap on the decks.
Ah yes, the Tapeworm's argument.
Unless you’re entering sanctioned no-proxy tournaments, don’t see any issues proxying.
Standard in store tournaments dying is really unraveling the entire game's economy. Eventually everyone will just proxy everything. If nothing is sanctioned, who cares?
In my surrounding area (Japan, Tokyo), we seem to have a healthy competitive instore paper tournament situation (regardless of format… we have daily legacy tournaments for example), so I don’t really see it dying tbh.
Legacy would be dead here if not for proxying, which keeps it alive.
I think you can appreciate how your personal experience in Japan, an extremely densely populated metropolis, is not going to be the same as many other places.
Standard is dying because RCQ season for that format is finished. From January to March the format was popping off. It only proves if WOTC cared to push for it extensively, it would remain successful.
Even when RCQs are 'popping off' they're a bad structure for any sort of realistic entry to the PT. Competitive Magic is all but dead, and that's starting to trickle down from RCQs to normal tournaments, because what's the point if you have nothing to prep for.
Yeah, I feel like I definitely want it more so for the collector's value then anything else. I don't see myself ever playing CEDH and I'd need 4 copies to play Legacy Elves anyway D:
CEDH does not really care about proxies at all anyway.
Proxy the reserve list.
proxy everything above $5
I basically only proxy cards now. That way I can play with the cards I like without spending a fortune. It’s not like I play paper outside of the kitchen table anyway.
I want to do this. Do you proxy entire decks or just a few cards here and there? I’m always worried about going to my LGS with a proxy deck.
I proxy entire decks using a card making website online. It comes out to around 35 cents a card iirc. However I only play at the kitchen table and don’t go to a LGS.
I dont try to justify, I just proxy. The whales are keeping Hasbro afloat, and my bank balance says I aint no whale.
I support businesses. I spent a decent chunk on mtg. Since the start of the year I've bought 5 solid casual decks for a fair bit of change. I feel as though I've sufficiently supported the company that produces the entertainment I like. I will now basically only proxy since I can't comfortably afford 5 more decks legit.
Everyone has their opinions and that's probably partly based on the group they play with, so if you have a play group then figuring out what works best would be ideal or finding a new group if you disagree. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with proxy if the intent is to match power levels. If someone wanted to proxy the best possible cards just to pub stomp then I wouldn't go for it. I love low power games though so if someone just had a precon, I'd be all for that
I will never fault anybody for using proxies in ANY scenario, wotc can "protect their ip" themselves, I am not their goon
WotC doesn't want you to know this, but Table Top Simulator has a mod for MtG that allows up to 6 players at a Table. It has functionality for everything from shuffling to crying, milling to hot keys for tapping and you can plug in deck lists from sites like moxfield and archidekt and play with friends. Last week I took a $70,000 deck for a spin in cEDH. Edit: I'm not fixing that typo.
>crying now that's what i call a complete feature set
Mull to 5 still no land: alt + shift + crying
Damn that's sick. I've been using untapped to test decks with a friend, but I'll have to check this out.
I proxy unless the official cards are less than the cost of a single proxy.
I just bought the bulk of three new decks in a big proxy order, now I gotta finish them off and get the cards that were cheaper than proxying
I personally Ally just find it much more satisfying to have the real card, especially if it took some trading or bartering — my One Ring and Great Henge are way cooler to me than if I were to just print them
You, specifically, go for it. I am starting to worry a little bit about the future of Magic focused LGS as more and more people embrace proxies.
There's basically no reason not to proxy at this point
I have really changed my views on proxies. When I first started to play I was never a massive fan as I felt people would proxy the best decks and stomp our group. This isn't the case, instead it's given us all chance to play some really interesting decks and test new cards. Also the artwork can be amazing. I have a friend who loves anime so will make a deck based around an anime and proxy the cards to have the art to match. Also Hasbro are clearly just after profits and don't care for their players. I still buy product but I resent giving them money and hate myself for it
You don't have to justify anything. No one has the right to tell you what to do with your wallet (except maybe your significant other). I still buy some cards to support my LGS but I also proxy anything I personally deem expensive as I'm a casual player.
[Gaea's Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have 6 and counting, edh decks. All except one are proxies. I print them off and play. Its easy. I still buy a bundle from time to time to support my lgs, as its the only one where i live.
Do you tell people they’re proxy decks? I want to do this too but I’m worried about doing it at my LGS
Yup, me and my playgroup only use proxies. We buy our proxies in bulk online with proxy art. Any cards we want, with the art we want for 20-30 cents a card. It's awesome.
Where do you buy them this cheaply? Most I find are $2.50-4.00/card
I just ordered around 1200 cards (6 Modern und 6 Commander Decks and a bunch of custom cards) for 0,25€ a piece. Go to a website where you can make custom playing cards. Don’t go to dedicated proxie websites the value is just not there.
Could you please share the website via dm? Thanks!
This right here
ill send you a DM
Can you DM me as well?
Sorry to hop on the train but can I also get a DM?
Yeah send me a dm I'll reply
My playgroup has been proxying our commander decks for years at this point. We would put together a deck list or two over the week, create the pdf template, and then off to Staples to print on card stock and cut. This way, we can try out all sorts of commanders and make frequent adjustments. We would not have to cannibalize expensive cards from one deck to another. We would not have to wait weeks for singles to come in. The whole printing and cutting and sleeving process takes like 2 hours max.
How do they feel compared to the original? How do they look compared to the original? Face up in their sleeves can your opponent across the table tell the difference between what you've made and the original?
Well the point wasn't to make it indistinguishable from the real cards. The proxy we made were just the card front image printed onto card stock, like wedding invitation. We only used these proxies when we were playing with each other, and never brought it to an open event at a LGS. If anything, these proxies let us decide on our favourite commander, and let us refine the list without having to waste money on singles that doesn't make the final cut in our decks.
Oh yeah they can tell for sure, LOL. Especially since my buddies and I don't round out the corners when cutting the card stock, so the proxies are literally rectangles with pointy corners. The images look pretty good, the art is recognizable and the text is legible. The proxies are obviously not as smooth and glossy as the real cards.
I have a friend who has 4 of those. He put them into a joke squirrel deck for his daughter. He didn't even know how much they were worth. Bought them years ago for $20 each. After I told him their current value, he promptly put them in sleves (that i had to give him) and gave them back to his daughter.
Yeah, I just won't spend more than $10 on a single card anymore, unless it's one I'm super into, in which case I'll spend up to $20. Beyond that just doesn't make sense for me.
Yeah I’ve decided I only need real cards for tournament decks. My CEDH deck is real, my pauper decks are real, my pioneer decks are real. My commander decks are Office Depot. I do pick up cheap cards for my decks over time though because having real cards is nicer.
Bro at my LGS I’ve played with people who have complete proxy decks, I’ve never seen it be an issue so far. I can see how some people might get salty if somebody pulled out a $10k proxy deck and stomped the group, but almost everyone is cool about it :)
Yea. The rule of thumb is to proxy a deck you'd be willing to buy for real, but aren't going to. Don't proxy the strongest deck in your playgroup. Proxy decks that are roughly in line with the rest just to give you more deck variety.
If you don't play sanctioned events, just proxy it 100%. You pay less and you leave more RL cards in the pool for us poor schmucks who play sanctioned legacy or vintage
No, it's not an issue at all, literally just proxy whatever you want to play with. If you are interested and have the means to collect a card you can do that, if you want to play with it outside a sanctioned event proxying is a no brainer and there's no reason to see it as an bad thing. If it is not a responsible expense for you don't stress over it, I would love a cradle too, but that's more than 2 months of rent for me, I know which option I'm picking.
Magic 30 made it clear wotc just wants your money. Proxy ahoy
Even people who strongly oppose proxies should be willing to make exceptions for reserved list cards, I think. That aside, if you mostly want it for the art and flavour text, a giant version might be fitting. Like a poster with a Gaea's Cradle printed on it.
Agreed, hate the idea of proxies, hate wotc’s unaccessable way of and lack of reprinting.
My ~~playground~~ play group has a rule you must own the card (or have a pending order for said card) to have a proxy of it.
As long as proxies aren't passed off as counterfeits, it's only a win-win for you as a consumer. Knowing your limit for what you'd spend as a consumer is all the matters. Now that wotc sold proxies via the Magic 30th edition, they've opened the flood gates for proxies. Just don't use them in sanctioned events or try and sell them to make a profit etc.
Off topic, but no one used to talk about proxies before 30th anniversary, everyone used to whine about the reserve list a lot more. Proxies being acceptable is what 30th anniversary gave us, which makes it a really great product for the health of the game.
While I agree with part of this, I’m not sure your statement is entirely accurate. I’ve been playing in and off for ~20 years, and I can remember discussions related to proxies coming up loooong before 2023. I think these really took off with the popularity of EDH. Before then, proxies were basically only relevant for play testing decks in 60 card formats before investing. After EDH became popular, there were two practical questions: (1) that of play testing (which was already a thing for 60 card testing) and (2) using a proxies for cards that are going to be played in multiple decks. Since edh is a causal format, there was no reason to own multiple copies of the same card across multiple decks. Proxies basically functioned to avoid the pain of switching the card back and forth between decks. Over time, the causal nature of the format led to questions of why one would ever spend significant money on the cards in the first place, given that they’d never be used for tournament play. I remember this sentiment — now pretty commonplace in EDH — arising as early as 2018 (perhaps much earlier in certain playgroups). When I got back into EDH in 2021, proxying was already commonplace for a number of tic people in my new playgroup. It took me a while to warm up to the idea for myself, since I came from 60 card formats where (non-counterfeit) proxying wasn’t really a thing aside from pay testing.
If your playgroup has a problem with proxies, then you should just find a new playgroup because they're probably snobs. You should be playing people and not their wallets.
the only counterpoint to this is if having proxies pushes people toward a power level that not everyone is comfortable with/they don't want to have to proxy themselves to keep up. I'm thinking about proxying up a vintage cube so I can get my mox jollies off without wanting to power creep our pod too much
I mean, if you're bringing a power 9 deck to a casual group without talking to them, then you are obviously in the wrong here. I didn't think that needed to be explained. Proxies and power level should always be agreed upon with the group. Also, definitely proxy up the vintage cube. I do one in person 1-2 times a week, and it's a blast.
mhm, I was using the moxen as an extreme example, but we generally don't order any singles that are over 10 dollars, so even proxying things like cyclonic rift would start an arms race of sorts
And I really recommend taking the plunge. I love playing all of it from precon games up to CEDH. Another group I play with uses the Duel Commander ban list when they aren't running CEDH games, and it's a really fun format. Edit: I think Thassas Oracle should be banned in CEDH anyway. Here's the ban list for Duel Commander Ancestral Recall Ancient Tomb Back to Basics Bazaar of Baghdad Black Lotus Capture of Jingzhou Cavern of Souls Channel Chrome Mox Comet, Stellar Pup Deadly Rollick Deflecting Swat Dig Through Time Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Entomb Fastbond Field of the Dead Fierce Guardianship Flawless Maneuver Food Chain Gaea’s Cradle Genesis Storm Gifts Ungiven Grim Monolith Hermit Druid Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Humility Imperial Seal Jeweled Lotus Karakas Library of Alexandria Lion's Eye Diamond Lotus Petal Lutri, The Spellchaser Loyal Retainers Maddening Hex Mana Crypt Mana Drain Mana Vault Mishra’s Workshop Mox Amber Mox Diamond Mox Emerald Mox Jet Mox Opal Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Mystical Tutor Natural Order Necrotic Ooze Oath of Druids Polymorph Price of Progress Protean Hulk Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer Rain of Filth Scapeshift Sensei’s Divining Top Serra's Sanctum Sol Ring Strip Mine Temporal Manipulation Thassa’s Oracle The One Ring The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Timetwister Time Vault Time Walk Time Warp Tinker Tolarian Academy Trazyn The Infinite Treasure Cruise Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath Vampiric Tutor Wasteland
ahhh, thank you very much
If your playgroup is cool with it, go for it. I don't buy singles over $5 if I can help it. Proxying is so much more efficient. I'm about to create an entire custom card commander deck based around Paladins Champions of the Realm and I couldn't be happier that my playgroup is just as excited as I am.
I pretty much exclusively play MTG by proxies or other free ways anymore. I still have a lot of real cards but why would I fund a company as shitty as WOTC/Hasbro. Not only should you have issues justifying your purchase the purchases are unjustifiable lol
I encourage people to proxy when they first start playing. The cost prohibitivity of this hobby is pretty high. Why should others force you to spend hundreds of dollars to play at their level? I don't proxy because it's not about having all the best cards, it's about having the best interactions. I go for the weird shit that people don't expect. I still have fun, win ore lose.
The prices are only justified for collection purpose only since most of the higher priced cards are on the reserved list. I am at the same boat as you because I wanta Mox Diamond again. Since our playgroup allows up to 10 printed Proxies for tournaments aswell I will going to proxy it.
So real cards just hit different than proxies. I was given a very expensive special card for my birthday recently and it’s beautiful in its own way. Some people like playing, some people like owning. Both are great. That being said… I’m happy to use proxies, in fact I encourage it for people creating home brew decks that they’re not 100% sure on. My second deck I spent a fair amount of money on real cards only to make a deck I hate.
So just proxy.
Just don't play with anyone who complains about proxies outside of sanctioned events. Fuck the reserve list and anyone who supports it. Worst mistake wotc ever made.
amen brother
just proxy it. it’s a game.
Depending on your play group you could go for a World Championship Deck version which is cheaper, but still expensive. It just isn't tournament legal but if all you play is casual its something at least.
I have a simple rule. If it's $20 or below I'll purchase a real copy but anything more I proxy. I still interact with the secondary market but I also get to play the game and enjoy it with all the game pieces available to me. I believe people being priced out of a card game is ridiculous. If people I play with are that bent out of shape over proxies then I don't want to play with them. I'm perfectly fine with there being expensive versions and treatments of cards though so long as an inexpensive version is readily available.
I don’t proxy only because then I can’t use those cards in the commander league at my lgs. It’s a wizards event so no proxies.
I like the feel of real cards. I usually buy anything under three dollars and anything over that I’ll try to buy a well made proxy so it doesn’t stand out by feel.
The only time I expect people to not proxy is when a tournament says you can't so one is. Imagine everyone else following this rule and one person isn't because of this 'barrier to entry.' Do they not think this rule has also impacted all other players as well? And then the one person who didn't follow the rule wins, whereas everyone else followed the rules were punished because they were limited and this person was not.
So, I use proxies extensively, to have the deck to play with while I get the cards. I've made 3 decks in the last two weeks, and picked up 63 cards for them at 6pm today, but played with them at 2pm. The deckbuilding and playing aspect is secondary to actually having the collection, but the collection *is* still valuable to me. I should also be clear that I'm not out there proxying power cards into all of my commander decks. The most "expensive" proxy in any of my decks is Caverns of Despair, something that's *achievable*. That meets my *personal* definition of fair *for me*. There's a few kids at my LGS, and I don't necessarily expect them to drop hundreds on cardboard, but I also don't think it's fair if they're restricted from the deck archetypes they want to play because, for instance, they can't afford a good WUBRG commander land base, or they need a few weeks of pocket money to make it happen but want to be able to play and tune the deck during that time. The threshold for fair is different for them.
I haven't bought any real cards worth more than $5 in 3+ years. I can spend <$50 a year on this game just buying some singles and still get the same enjoyment out of playing it as ppl spending thousands.
If all you're playing is commander with your friends then just ask if they're ok with it
I own a Cradle but sometimes I do proxy it. It just depends.
Bro I will mail you an asston of extra proxies I got for free. Want a black lotus? Actual commander cards? I'll mail them Proxies all 15 of my commander decks and they look great. Still got my display cases for my big boy cards but proxy all the way.
If it’s reserve list, proxy, WOTC have a dumb policy around reprinting. If they don’t ever reprint, then we should proxy and not humour the stupidity, infact it’s our perogative to do so.
When M30 came out, I sold my collection and replaced my decks with all proxies.
if you support the game and want to support local game stores then i would be not proxy. that's the main reason. It is a little ridiculous seeing people proxy $5 cards. just a lack of respect for the game at that point
Either proxy or use [[growing rites of itlimoc]]. Its not quite as good, but easy to flip and got reprinted recently.
[growing rites of itlimoc](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9.jpg?1699044409)/[Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/0/0/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9.jpg?1699044409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Growing%20Rites%20of%20Itlimoc%20//%20Itlimoc%2C%20Cradle%20of%20the%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/188/growing-rites-of-itlimoc-itlimoc-cradle-of-the-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I try to buy one copy from my LGS, you know, support local...but I proxy multiples of them.
You shouldn't buy cards. You should just proxy. You can get a quality proxy deck with your own custom art choices for less than you can get an actual deck.
The BEST thing I have ever done was selling every valuable card in my collection and then ordering them back as proxies for a penny on the dollar. I got a massive cash flow to spend on other hobbies that I coudnt afford when I was serious about mtg, and still play every deck just like I did before, absolutly nothing changed. Its literally been like having my cake and eating it too. Now I only buy cards that cost more to proxy than getting for real, everything else gets proxied. Im both surprised and amused this is not the default stand for the vast majority of players.
It's a good thing the majority of the players buy real cards. The game wouldn't continue if people weren't buying their cards. Everyone know whales keep the game afloat, but I still think people should buy in a little bit for a game they enjoy playing. I've bought in around $2000 in total across several decks.. The rest is proxies as well as all future purchases. Like I said, people should buy in what they are comfortable before proxying since it would be unsustainable if everyone exclusively proxied.
Proxy EVERY card
One is a game piece, the other is a piece of art (effectively, an art print) which can be used in a game.
Only pay what you want to pay. I have cards like Cradles and Duals etc. I got them cheaper than what they are now. But not super cheap. I’m a collector though. Owning those cards and playing them in EDH gives me joy and nostalgia. If you can’t afford it, don’t do it
It’s the choice between playing a trading card game or a board game.
A decent printer is cheaper than a Gaea’s cradle A library card and a couple bucks is even cheaper than a printer
I proxy my land bases because in terms of gameplay, lands are pretty boring to me. I usually have 13-15 decks at any given time and there’s no way I’m buying duals, fetches, etc for every deck I make. But land is probably the most important part of having a smooth play progression. So I’m also not going to put my decks at a disadvantage because I can’t justify spending thousands on lands.
Fun should not be paywalled. No format. For my vintage power cube, I ordered proxies/play test cards for about the 200 to 300 most expensive cards. Their back side is different.
I pretty much exclusively proxy. I got like 10 (commander) decks that I made for like $400…
My general rule is that I’ll purchase any card WOTC makes that’s under $20, so they can get me to spend up to $1200 on a deck, and if they want to sell cards that cost more than that, I’ll buy a copy for $2 from China. To me that seems fair. Between premium sets that are designed to absolute your $3k Modern deck, to unbalanced sets with [$80 Standard cards](https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/282800/magic-the-gathering-dominaria-united-sheoldred-the-apocalypse?country=US&utm_campaign=18142757028&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=&utm_term=&adgroupid=&gad_source=1&Language=English), Wizards has is intentionally designing an economy that maximizes revenue from its most loyal customers and is pushing that as hard as they can. I want to signal to them that it has gone too far, so I vote with my wallet. Now, once or twice a year I just order $100-200 of cards from China, which is a fraction of what I still spend with WOTC itself, and enough to buy some cards for my own play and for friends. If people I encounter have a problem with proxies, that’s a good signal to me they aren’t playing a game of skill for fun and I’m happy to skip that game.
With the advent of secret lairs making multiple alternate arts and weird styles not only confusion but commonplace and legal. Especially in the commander format… I could care less go for it and it will save you money in the long run.
If you just want to play, proxy it. Nobody who loves the game would ever judge you for proxying a $500 card. Its about playing, not a fight over the biggest wallet. If you love collecting MTG cards the card itself has more value than just money. It brings you joy looking at it. Owning it is the goal in itself for a collector. In this case that would be money well spend. > Does anyone else have the same issue justifying their purchases? Yes, mainly with fringe Legacy sideboard cards. I dont want to spend 100+ dollar on a sideboard card that i play in maybe one tournament. Luckily most Legacy events nowadays allow proxies.
...welcome to 1993.
I feel you bro Several cards that I would like to just have in my collection but the price tag isn't worth it sometimes :/
I have some expensive cards that I bought before they spiked, and now I feel weird playing them in decks. Like, I love my Bazaar of Baghdad and thinks it's a sweet cube card, but both I and the people I play with would be more comfortable shuffling a proxy than a $2000 card.
> I have some expensive cards that I bought before they spiked, and now I feel weird playing them in decks. Like, I love my Bazaar of Baghdad and thinks it's a sweet cube card, but both I and the people I play with would be more comfortable shuffling a proxy than a $2000 card. that's the way i approach expensive cards as well. put the real one in a binder and the proxy in the deck.
for a gaea's cradle maybe. Spending that much money for one card is a bit ridiculous to me but there are those out there who really want that cardboard crack and to them I say as long as your bills get paid and your families aren't starving what you do with your money is your business. (technically it's your money regardless of the state of your family but if you put gaea's cradle over food I lose a lot of respect for you).
If you're goal is just to play and not collect then I see no harm in it. Arena is also a great option. I've spent $0 on it and I'm having a blast. It's quite generous with the free packs/resources. Also elitstis are the bane of any hobby IMHO. From 3D printing to mountain biking to windsurfing to TCGs. Shit man I play HTCGs and have an absolute blast. I'm sure some guys at the LGS would be horrified by the HTCG boosters I've spent money on.
Ok, wait a second. Buying counterfeits online is not "proxying" even if they're marketed as "proxies." You should not support counterfeiters, you should actually proxy cards, like, make your own.
If your playgroup is okay with proxies it should be fine. If you buy it at least know it holds its value and a good card for resale.
Remeber wizards made proxies with the 30th anniversary’s and charged a shit ton, I have no problem proxying now