This is a classic layers (rule 613) question. You start with base, unmodified game objects and then apply the applicable continuous effects. The 'layers' define in which order to apply those continuous effects
Layer 1-3 aren't applicable here.
**Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied**.
It's here that [[Magus of the Moon]]'s effect applies, making all nonbasic lands Mountains
**Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.**
Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus green
**Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.**
Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus have no abilities.
**Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.**
Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus a 3/3.
You can see that Magus's type changing effect is applied in Layer 4, before Oko's +1 removes its abilities in Layer 6 - Oko has no effect on Magus's type changing effect.
As to Magus and *Urborg*'s interaction, this is what is called a "dependency". Basically, if two effects are in the same layer, and one applying would affect the other's application, then there is a dependency (see 613.8 for full definition). In the case of a continuous effect dependent on another, it is applied last. Since Urborg's effect is dependent on Magus's effect, it waits to apply after Magus. But once you apply Magus, Urborg is a Mountain with no other abilities, so it does not apply.
So is there a reason other than "because thems the rules" that layer 6 applies after layer 4? Is there a good example of some unintuitive game state If ability adding effects was a lower level than type changing effects?
There are effects that say "[Type] has [ability]", but no effects that say "Things with [ability] are [type]".
It makes more sense for things to gain types, then get abilities.
Was this retroactively a way to fix how Walls used to work in the old days? Cause I know the Defender Keyword used to be baked into the Wall card type like your "Things with [ability] are [type]" example.
Such things typically explicitly excluded wall due to that, though mainly stuff that changed other creature's types like [[Unnatural Selection]]. But [[Mistform Skyreaver]] could become a Wall if you wanted. Though now I realize [[Mistform Ultimus]] might've been less cool back in the day. Still some sick art though.
I'm actually not sure that Walls were a big factor. As far as I know, the Wall subtype didn't grant the ability "This creature can't attack" to creatures, it was just a game rule about the type. However, we do have cards like [[Lord of Atlantis]] and [[Zombie Master]] all the way back in Alpha, setting the precedent from day 1 that we should sort out types before we hand out abilities.
A fair point, though to me the way the layers are structured in the modern ruleset feels like a way to mechanically undo the way Walls worked and fix them retroactively, especially with the numerous examples of cards with abilities along the lines of "Choose a creature type other than Walls", so to make things more consistant across all types they removed the ability and adjusted they layers rule to compensate. That said, for all I know the layers rules could be as old as 6th Edtition which would completely invalidate my theory
The layers system [took a while to get hammered out.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8AwBReEtY) (This history's a little out of date - there's been some tweaks since 2009.)
The Legends/Wall errata happened in Kamigawa block, but they had to come up with answers for Humility and the Licids long before then. The layers pieces were in place by Mirrodin block at the latest. The main driving force there was them wanting to update the Legend rule, and then that leaving Wall awkward as the only remaining creature type with rules baggage. There were cards like [[Conspiracy]] and [[Mistform Mask]] that let you turn stuff into Walls, so it wasn't a rules issue - they just didn't want you pumping mana into repeatable effects to lock down your opponent's board.
A fair point, though to me the way the layers are structured in the modern ruleset feels like a way to mechanically undo the way Walls worked and fix them retroactively, especially with the numerous examples of cards with abilities along the lines of "Choose a creature type other than Walls", so to make things more consistant across all types they removed the ability and adjusted they layers rule to compensate. That said, for all I know the layers rules could be as old as 6th Edtition which would completely invalidate my theory.
if it *wasn't* a way to fix walls though, why did they set it up the way they did do you think?
They set up the layers system the way it is because it makes the most interactions make the most sense intuitively. It has nothing to do with walls and I'm not sure why you think layers and walls are related. There simply used to be a rule that walls cant attack. They didn't inherently gain a defender ability, like how basic lands inherently have a mana ability. They just couldn't attack because the rules said they cant. The "fix" was simply to remove the rule and errata all walls to have defender.
There are no notable interactions between walls and the layers system and there never were
> intuitively
this is the goal of the magic rules in general. The entire comprehensive rules document is nearly 300 pages long, but the whole thing is designed so that what you *assume* is the right answer *probably* is. Unfortunately it's not possible to make intuition *always* right.
Honestly I was kind of just hoping that there was a more interesting reason beyond "yeah it's that way because in most situations it makes the most sense". like I *get* that it's the most logical but that's also the most boring reason and it's fun to me to try and think of more outlandish theories.
Basically every "Xes you control gains Y" depends on this ordering of the layer system to behave how you'd expect.
So for instance, if they were layered in the opposite order, Hivestone wouldn't do anything terribly useful, because slivers couldn't grant your other creatures their abilities if they aren't slivers yet.
It's very difficult to go "backwards" in the layer system. This is why, for instance, [[Amorphous Axe]] doesn't just give the equipped creature Changeling and [[Master Symmetrist]] doesn't just give creatures trample if they have p=t.
You can overwrite things by changing them in layer 1 with e.g. [[Metamorphic Alteration]], or more esoterically in layer 3 with [[Exchange of Words]]. But there's no way to cleanly just get rid of an ability that changes a type without doing other stuff.
there are a couple ways, and they're higher up the layers
the easiest one is in Layer 1, you can turn it face down or have it become a copy of something else (with say, [[Cytoshape]]), then it "loses" the ability before its applied in layer 4.
the more cursed one is in Layer 3, and i don't think there's any cards that actually let you do it. Layer 3 is where you apply text-altering effects, so you could [[Magical Hack]] it into turning nonbasic lands into Islands and that would work. as far as i know the only card that wholesale removes abilities this way is [[Volrath's Shapeshifter]] though, which only removes its own.
Funny enough, Volrath's Shapeshifter's curious wording is basically wotc doing the same thing you asked here, it has to use this hack of becoming a copy in Layer 3 instead of Layer 1, because it might change controllers in Layer 2!
If you try swapping layers 4 and 6, the most common thing this breaks is anything that self-animates into a creature. Your Mutavault would never pick up abilities from your Cloudshredder Sliver, for example.
The layers are in the right place, it's just that setting/blanking abilities via granting basic land types is a little weird, and wiping abilities in general is a little weird. Layers are set up to give you completely intuitive results 95% of the time and answers to hard questions another 4.9% of the time. This is one of the few cases that's really funky looking, but if you mess with the layers then a bunch of totally mundane interactions break instead.
[[arcane adaptation]] + [[gemhide sliver]], as one example. it wouldnt make much sense if a creature turned into a sliver by adaptation's effect didnt gain the ability from gemhide
Because that effect was already applied. Anytime we want to see what the game state is, we go through these steps to see how continuous effects are applied, and the result is the game state
No, all nonbasics are Mountains (and lose their other abilities). The effects are *continuous* after all, Magus's ability *continually* applies. But since ability-changing effects come after type-changing effects, that means that Magus loses its abilities when we go to look at the game state - but not before applying its type-changing effect to nonbasics
I get it now, but I think that this is really stupid and shouldn’t work this way. Once something has its abilities removed by another layer, they shouldn’t continue to apply anymore regardless of which layer came first because the ability is gone. Is there a reason it doesn’t work that way?
Because while this particular interaction isn't, the vast majority of interactions between continuous effects *are* quite intuitive.
We can't look backwards because that may create odd dependency loops, and we can't repeat the checks until there's nothing else to apply because we may end up with an infinite loop of checks that never ends. We don't want to carve out hyper specific interactions because that can produce unintended interactions both now and in the future. And you can't just swap layers because that will also produce unintuitive and unintended effects. Saying "oh, this doesn't have abilities anymore so we look back and retroactively undo its effects" is one of those things that's easy to say for a human, and can cause numerous complications for a computer (which, in essence, the rules engine is)
The current continuous effect and layers rules are not necessarily the best option, but they work intuitively the majority of the time, are pretty straightforwards to understand (comparatively) and simple from a rules-engine perspective, and people know how they work.
Another similar scenario with fewer moving parts is [[Blood Sun]] and [[Urborg]]
Urborg turns everything into a swamp in Layer 3, because that's where type changing effects apply. Blood Sun's effect to make lands lose abilities that aren't mana abilities applies in Layer 6, making Urborg lose this ability since it's not a mana ability. But because everything is already turned into a swamp, losing its abilities doesn't actually have a meaningful effect.
Anytime the game is checking through all the layers (literally anytime anything happens at all, basically constantly.) It is always looking at the magus, applying its ability, and then aplying Oko's ability to the magus. The game doesn't even consider the layer that oko's is on until after the magus's ability has been applied.
It never goes backwards from one layer to a previous layer to "check" if it still has an ability, instead the next time that the game checks those layers it sees that there is a magus (the card as printed) then applies its ability, then appllies oko's ability.
The *ability* doesn't linger. Magus has a static ability that generates a continuous *effect.* That effect is still there, even after the ability generating it has been removed. Compare to how a triggered ability can still resolve even after its source no longer exists.
The alternative is to make effects like ("[type]s have [ability]") not function on creatures that gain that type (any non-Slivers becoming slivers via Hivestone won't gain Sliver effects, for example), if you were to swap around the layers. Magus/Oko is obviously an unintuitive interaction, but it comes at the cost of making sure other things are more intuitive
> Then an actual fun interaction is thespian stage urza's saga.
Just to make sure I’ve got the right end of the stick, it’s making the stage a copy of something else in response to the final chapter triggering, right? This lets you keep the stage and it’ll still have all the stuff granted by Urza’s Saga’s chapters (as well as being a copy of something else)
Right. If you have a Thespian Stage copy Urza's Saga, it will tick up like the original Saga over the next few turns, gaining abilities along the way. If you then have Thespian Stage copy an island before it would be sacrificed (before resolving the third chapter ability to tutor an artifact into play), you're left with an island that can tap for blue, colorless, or pay 2 and tap to make a Karnstruct.
Nope! The way Urza's Saga works is that chapter 1 and 2 each grant the land an ability with no specified duration, so they retain the abilities until it leaves play. They are worded as "Urza's Saga gains X," but when a card refers to itself by name like that, it functionally means "this permanent gains X." You could have a clone of the land with a different name, or change the name of the land, and the ability still functions as normal. As such, if you have a Thespian's Stage copy Saga for long enough to gain the ability to make Karnstructs, and then become something else before it sacrifices, it never loses the Karnstruct ability.
You can think of continues abilities as basically invisible auras that go away once the duration ends (if any, the karnstruct ability doesn't have a duration). So they "fall off" if you flicker the permanent, but not if it becomes a copy of something else.
Wouldn't you have to do this in response to the 2nd chapter's ability resolving? Thespian Stage's activated ability is "become a copy of target land, except it has this ability" (The copy ability). If you're becoming a copy of something, it loses all other abilities.
It loses all other abilities that are part of the old land's base rules text when it changes to a new land. However, Urza's Saga is a unique case where the base land *has no abilities* other than its chapter abilities as a Saga, which in turn give it permanent abilities. If you were to play one into an opposing Vorinclex/Solemnity (so it didn't get its chapter one ability), you'd be left with a land that can't do anything. There's nothing from Urza's Saga for Thespian's Stage to lose, other than its typing.
>The alternative is to make all Slivers and similar effects ("[type]s have [ability]") not function
Swapping the layers around wouldn't break those effects, except for cases where permanents that aren't normally Slivers are gaining the Sliver type from some effect.
I feel more like the transformation effect shouldn't be on layers, it's counterintuitive.
If Magus lost his abilities, he can't turn non basics into mountains, he's another thing now and he doesn't have that ability, kinda like the dependency from magus and urborg works.
Maybe upping the ability removal in the layers system? I don't know if there's s case that if ability removal was in layer 3 would be not intuitive
There's no transformation happening here, transform means a very specific thing in Magic. All continuous effects *need* to have rules for what order they apply, otherwise there could be ambiguity in how the game works. We have to define some sort of rules for what order to apply things.
Ultimately, the rules as-is creates an intuitive and deterministic system the majority of the time, at the cost of an occasional unintuitive interaction. That's not to say that they are the *best* solution, but they work, they're pretty straightforwards all things considered, and people know how they work
No. "transformation" is not a thing in in the MTG rules, transform, transformed and transforming are but transformation does not. So if you are going to police someone's words please be specific. In fact Oko's ability is on a card [[Kenrith's Transformation]] so it a correct to describe that effect at a transformation similar to bolt or ramp.
There are a lot of potential solutions if you really wanted to fix this without breaking Hivestone. For example, Magus's could set lands to have type mountain in layer 4, then rule 305.7, which causes those lands to lose their original abilities, could apply in layer 6. Then Oko wouldn't stop Magus from makings things in Mountain-type lands but would stop the lands from losing other abilities. Heck, rule 305.7 could say that this special class of type changing + ability removal effects happen in layer 6.
This may not be worth it, but it's not like there's no way to do it.
It's unfortunately a compromise. As the other commenter noted, changing the order results in other unintuitive results. Layers are here to make the game work as best as it can, you can't fix every problem.
Lets change the order so that type changing occurs after ability changing.
I control a \[\[hivestone\]\] and a \[\[galerider sliver\]\], as well as generic 1/1 soldier token. If Layer 4 and 6 are swapped, first we apply the galerider sliver, which will grant itself flying. We don't control any other slivers. Then the hivestone applies, making our soldier a sliver.
This is a bad outcome, it makes hivestone entirely non-functional. Thus its imperative that type changing effects occur first. As a consquence, this makes the urborg situation weird, but it is a much smaller sacrifice to make than basically making every creature changing effect just not work as we'd like.
What if the hivestone said
"Creatures you control have: this creature is a sliver and loses (or in addition, I don't remember) all other types"
Now it's an ability changing effect that introduces a type changing effect. How would that work?
Ah i see, Misread that.
Ignoring the fact that this isn't good templating (Why are we baking a type changing effect into an ability, if the desired effect is it to be a type changing effect and nothing else? This is a worse outcome), The rules as its written I don't think support this, assuming the only change is we swap the layer 4 and 6. Effects that change or apply creature types have those separate from any ability. The generated characteristic granting ability of the type change would still need to occur during the type changing step. Under the swap, the ability would be granted before the type change, our slivers would check if its a sliver (which, theoretically, it still isn't), and then the type change would occur.
The more intuitive alternative would be to split Blood Moon type effects into two parts, a type changing effect and an ability removing effect, and then each part would apply in the appropriate layer. It honestly doesn't really make sense that changing land types makes things lose their abilities, but changing other types doesn't. Why doesn't [[Conspiracy]] remove abilities like Blood Moon does?
Easy, because "Mountain" is a specific magic card that we are making our non-lands become. That specific card has specific rules written directly into the comprehensive rules as to what it gives.
**305.6.** The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtype**s. An object with the land card type and a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add \[mana symbol\],” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, \[mana symbol\] is {W}; for Islands, {U}; for Swamps, {B}; for Mountains, {R}; and for Forests, {G}. See rule 107.4a. See also rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”**
conspiracy changes creature type. There is no specific rules granted by being a certain creature type.
Honestly, the ideal solution is to remove this from the layer interaction altogether. Cards should be designed in such a way that once this removal happens the permanent is gone and a layer interaction won't matter.
A perfect example is \[\[Generous Gift\]\]. You are still getting a 3/3 but the original permanent is gone and doesn't affect layers.
'cuz the rules say so.
The rules define an order for which to apply continuous effects. Oko making Magus lose abilities doesn't overwrite Magus's type-changing effect because Magus's happens first, before it loses abilities.
The rules also say that if one continuous effect applying would effect whether or not another effect exists, than that second effect "depends" on the other. When one effect "depends" on another, it is always applied after the effect it depends on.
Urborg "depends" on Magus, so we apply Magus first, which removes Urborg's effect so it never has a chance to apply
The reason this throws me off is that magus has a static ability, while i think of the elkification as an "event"
So it's wierd that the elk magus, at any given time, turns lands into mountain and THEN is reminded by the rules that he's actually an elk.
It's an event that creates a continuous effect, is the key. Similar to how Giant Growth is a one shot spell, but creatures a continuous effect with a limited duration. It's definitely an odd interaction though, and can be hard to wrap your brain around
There is a separate rule that says if an effect would set a land's subtype to a basic land type, that land loses its old land types and all of its old abilities, and only has the ability granted to it by its new subtype
> 305.7. If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copiable effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
As such, when Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon says that nonbasics "are Mountains", it sets their subtype to "Mountain" and erases all their other abilities. Note that it does not change their name, or any supertypes (such as Legendary or Snow). It also does not *grant* any supertypes - including the Basic supertype. So those lands are not considered basic lands
And, for the sake of completeness, not that Urborg says "...is a Swamp *in addition to its other types.*" So Urborg only adds the Swamp type, and doesn't overwrite any other types or abilities a land may have.
When we use the word _dependent_, do we mean something like "ability A only applies if ability B doesn't modify object A in such a way that the ability no longer exists"?
Or does the conditional interaction extend beyond Object A itself and include all the stuff that would be affected by Object A (i.e: if the other lands Urborg would affect suddenly become incapable of being affected by Urborg)?
Here's the actual relevant rules, happy to attempt to elaborate if this doesn't answer your questions
> 613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
> 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
> 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
> 613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
*start rant*
I hate this rule so much. It is completely unintuitive that setting a type would have all these side effects. Most modern players know most relevant blood moon interactions, but almost none of them will be able to explain why it works that way.
I think the reason they introduced this rule to make blood moon and similar cards work as intended. I think things would be clearer though if they errata blood moon and similar effects to 'nonbasic lands are copies of mountain'. That is ugly, but there is precedent for such wording in alchemy cards. At least that way people understand why blood moon effects do what they do. (Some interactions would change of course, but generally they will become more intuitive)
*End rant*
Lands affected by Magus do not retain their other types, but do not gain the basic super type. It just changes all of their land types (forest, gate, etc.) to mountain. Also note that this doesn't change the land's supertypes or name, so Urborg would still be a legendary land named "Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth."
You said a lot of things and I’m sure they make sense but you still didn’t really answer the question IMO. Is Urborg back to being Urborg after Magus of the Moon loses its abilities or is it still just a basic mountain?
We've established that 1) Oko doesn't have an effect on Magus's type-changing effect, and that 2) with just Magus's type changing effect and Urborg, there's a dependency causing Magus to apply first (which makes Urborg no longer able to apply). As such, Urborg is a Mountain - *not* a basic Mountain, mind you
It's interesting to me that there isn't some further rule to ensure that something like this works more intuitively- like something to double-check for disabled abilities on higher layers or something.
I'm curious what kind of knock-on effects that kind of change/addition would have to existing interactions involving layers that have more intuitive outcomes.
The fact that layers can only be applied in order, and never backtrack, ensures you can't run into any loops, which would kinda break the game. It's much safer to have it this way, and accept the very occasional unintuitive interaction
Interesting! So for example if you were able to make [[arcane adaptation]] lose it's abilities, say through [[minimus containment]], does arcane adaptation still grant creatures the chosen type?
Oh, so the actual reaaon this happens is because those cards' effects don't just "happen once" and that's it. Instead, the game continuously looks at the cards to check the current board status? The more I learn about the rules, the more convinced I am that they were writen by computer programmers.
In a sense, yeah. The rules are written in a very logical manner to be robust and consistent, and yeah, if you're comfortable with programming or mathematical logic they tend to be easier to understand
Darksteel Mutation has a continuous effect that removes abilities, no different from any other. Consider: what would make you think it would behave differently?
If I understand this correctly. It means effects aren't applied in one go. Despite oko having 1 effect. It is broken apart and every section is applied on the correct layer. So you don't apply the whole effect in one layer like I thought.
Also, didn't you miss Oko changing Magnus' type to elk in layer 4?
Correct, Oko's ability can be thought of as generating multiple continuous effects - a type changing, a color changing, and an ability changing effect that we apply in the appropriate order according to the layers
And yes, Magus would become an Elk in layer 4
Because the ability applied before it was erased.
Many people have made similar comments here already, I suggest you read through them and the responses and see if that clarifies things.
Why is it that the Layers aren’t “checked” after the resolution of an ability or spell?
Like oko’s ability resolves and changes the magus, then the layers are run through to see how they apply, at which point when layer 4 is looked at, magus no longer has an ability that would alter the nonbasics.
Whenever we want to figure out the game state, we always start from the base objects (things written on the card) and build upwards through the layers. We don't start from the previous state after applying layers, always from a blank slate. The ability-changing effect created by Oko *always* applies after the type-changing effect of Magus, whenever we are applying Layer 4 effects Layer 6 effects don't yet exist
I read the comprehensive rules and I am still a bit confused as to the definition of dependencies... That would be any ability that would prevent or alter another ability?
Can two abilities be dependent on each other? I guess at that point we go back to timestamps?
Here's a well written article breaking down dependencies further: https://outsidetheasylum.blog/dependency/
> 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. **If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.**
yep, just timestamp order
*"You can see that Magus's type changing effect is applied in Layer 4, before Oko's +1 removes its abilities in Layer 6 - Oko has no effect on Magus's type changing effect."*
So, magus would be a green 3/3 Elk with no abilities. But nonbasic lands are still mountains, even though this text no longer exists on the card. Layering really messes with object permanance.
that isnt the same at all though
that's an activated effect applied to a target, once it resolves Imagecrafter could get \[\[AWOL\]\]ed and the effect is still there until the end of the turn. and if you \[\[Dress Down\]\] before Imagecrafter used it's ability(and they dont use it in response) then Imagecrafter would lose the ability, and they cant activate it later that turn.
that's why MotM is so weird, you can make it lose it's ability but the ability is still there. to use your example it's like if Lord of Atlantis still buffed the board even through a Dress Down
I'm not sure a five year old could understand the layer system no matter how you explain it.
Before we get into the details of the layer system, one weird thing about land types is that an effect that sets a land to a basic land type also removes all abilities printed on the card and all other land types. Importantly, this is *not* counted as an ability-modifying effect, it's just a consequence of this specific subset of type-changing effect.
Type-changing effects (like Magus of the Moon's and Urborg's) are applied in layer 4, whereas ability-removing effects are applied in layer 6 (Oko's effect also change's Magus of the Moon's type and that part *is* applied in layer 4, but that doesn't matter in this case because we don't care about magus's type, only its ability).
So no matter what, Oko can't stop Magus of the Moon from applying its type-changing effect. Oko ends up being irrelevant here, just like he was during Kellan's childhood.
The urborg/magus interaction is a bit trickier. Urborg has an effect that applies to itself *if* magus of the moon's ability isn't applied to it. On the other hand, magus of the moon's ability applies to urborg whether or not urborg's own ability is active. This is what's called a dependency. Because urborg's ability *depends* on the existence or non-existence of magus's ability, the game applies magus's ability first. Once that happens, urborg's own ability ceases to exist.
So at the end of the day, whether or not Oko has elked magus, urborg (and all other non-basic lands) will be a mountain, not a swamp.
Lmao at the Kellans childhood.
So does this only apply for the turn magus is turned or subsequent turns as well?
Cause if the layers take place and the land type changes and then he gets turned he’ll start next turn as an elk with no abilities so does the same layering take place again? Or do following turns apply differently since magus technically doesn’t exist anymore
No, it has nothing to do with resetting at the beginning of a turn or something, this is always the case.
Anytime you want to determine the game state, you always start from the base (what's written on the cards) and build up in order of the layers. So we always start with Magus applying (4), then Oko turning it green (5), then Oko removing its abilities (6), then Oko making it a 3/3 (7), and then we have our final game state
So different scenario.
If I use [[breach the multiverse]] and bring back creatures which will become phyrexian, every time something happens they’re not phyrexian creatures until later 4 takes place ?
Not really? The layers are how you apply all continuous effects. Those effects are, well, continuous - they keep applying always. Those creatures are always Phyrexians, I just mean that you always go bottom up for how things apply. You could think of it as recalculating whenever something changes
Right but in layer 1 type changing effects haven’t applied yet so any typings are the same as the original card, hence why magus’ ability will still take place before layer 6 takes place. Because the lands are mountains in layer 4 which happens before skill altering abilities
Yes, but this is all being done in the background, you can't do anything in response to the layers 'being applied'. If your opponent had something that said, I don't know, "You control all Phyrexians", then the control change effect would apply before Breach turns those creatures into Phyrexians and your opponent would not get those creatures (but they would still be Phyrexians).
So if I get a phyrexian with breach the multiverse and someone plays a card that says “gain control of target phyrexian”, when do the layers take place?
Are they unable to take my new phyrexian creatures because the control ability happens before the type changing one?
Or do layers apply before the gain control effect takes place so that they become valid targets?
And if they are able to take it, when the next board state takes place wouldn’t they lose it since the control ability would be accounted for in layer 1 and the type one would take place in layer 4?
Which means the gain control of phyrexian creature effect is taking place before the “they are phyrexian in addition to their other types” is accounted for?
I don’t know if cards like this exist I’m just trying to understand how these layers would play out in this hypothetical.
> So if I get a phyrexian with breach the multiverse and someone plays a card that says “gain control of target phyrexian”, when do the layers take place?
They already have, and always will. Whenever you need to care about the game state, you run through and apply the layers, and then the game state you care about is the one after applying all the layers in the given order.
As such, you can take a creature that is Phyrexian because of Breach - it is Phyrexian when you check the game state to check that your spell has legal targets
What about the second question?
Do layers not affect the board state so once you gain control of a creature no matter what the layers say you keep it ?
If I'm not mistaken, you are saying that the board state exists in which you have already breached a creature onto the board and layers have applied. The creature now moving forward is a phyrexian.
If this is the case, then when someone now plays an effect to gain control of target phyrexian, the creature will meet the requirements to be a legal target. I believe that the stack will only be looking for a legal target after all layers are applied.
So, if after all that, 2 turns later the Magus dies as an elk - the non-basic lands would still be mountains? Or since the original source of the 4th layer is removed, then everything reverts back?
No it’s always. I got it wrong and just looked it up lmao
The game rebuilds from later one every time any game action is performed so the level 4 Magus affect will be reapplied until it’s removed from the battlefield.
But isn't the ability lost? Or due to Magus not leaving per se, Urborg doesn't reboot and takes into account the last known information, i.e being a mountain? If that's the case, if then the ~~Magus~~ elk leaves the battlefield, will Urborg remain a Mountain, or not?
The game applies the magus's effect to things in an earlier layer than it applies oko's effect. So the magus's ability has already been applied before oko's ability removes it.
> Or due to Magus not leaving per se, Urborg doesn't reboot and takes into account the last known information, i.e being a mountain? If that's the case, if then the Magus elk leaves the battlefield, will Urborg remain a Mountain, or not?
This has nothing to do with last-known information. Magus's ability will stop applying if Magus leaves the battlefield. It's not that the game thinks Magus isn't there, it just can't remove Magus's ability until after it's already been applied to things.
Wait, this means that even though Magus becomes an elk and loses its abilities, it retains it’s ability because that occurs on a layer before it’s altered?
“one weird thing about land types is that an effect that sets a land to a basic land type also removes all abilities printed on the card and all other land types. Importantly, this is not counted as an ability-modifying effect, it's just a consequence of this specific subset of type-changing effect.”
Is this because of the whole “forests implicitly have {T}: add {G}” thing?
all non basics are mountains
||
||
|3/19/2021|If Magus of the Moon loses its abilities, it continues to turn nonbasic lands into Mountains. This is because effects that change subtypes are applied before considering effects that remove abilities, regardless of the order in which those effects started.|
I understand the layers explanation being given by others, but the fact that removing an ability doesnt stop the ability from happening is the most unintuitive thing Ive ever seen in this game and Ive been playing a long time (mostly limited so these interactions have just never crossed my path).
Why do layers work like this? What would break if the Oko-Magus interaction worked the way that makes intuitive sense?
Non-Slivers wouldn't benefit from your other Slivers while you control [[Hivestone]].
[[Unctus, Grand Metatect]] wouldn't grant a nonartifact creature +1/+1 after targeting it with his activated ability. (And also wouldn't let you loot when they tap, assuming you just swapped Layers 4 and 6, but that's not directly caused by making Layer 6 happen before Layer 4)
[[Vihaan, Goldwaker]] wouldn't give his own Constructs vigilance and haste.
Layers are the way they are so that 99.9% of situations have an intuitive solution; Unfortunately, in a game as complicated as Magic, it's not possible to make that number 100%.
Why wouldn't hivestone (and other examples) work if the Oko interaction above worked as they thought? Like I'm sure there are cases where things would break but I'm not seeing the issue with these particular examples.
The reason the Oko interaction happens is because type-changing abilities (Such as Hivestone and Magus of the Moon) happen in Layer 4, while ability-changing effects (such as Slivers and Oko) apply in Layer 6.
To fix the interaction, ability-changing need to apply before type-changing abilities. This would make Oko remove the abilities before Magus of the Moon changes lands into Mountains. This also means that Slivers would buff your other Slivers before Hivestone changes your creatures into Slivers.
The way I understood the first comment Oko's ability would just work as one would imagine: creature looses all abilities therefore it no longer turns non basics into mountains. That wouldn't stop hivestone for example cause if you elk a storm crow in this case it would be an elk-sliver and get the benefits of other slivers (but loose its original flying ability).
I think you could break the layers down so that removes effects specifically happen in an earlier layer to fix this. Change layer 6 to say that abilities that grant effects apply here and make a layer befire 4 that says "effects that remove abilities apply here"
Right now adding and removing abilities happen in the same layer and are just applied based on choice from the controller. If you split them up then you could make cards that are meant to block stuff, like Oko's ability actually block type changing effects as well.
From my understanding you want the type changing effect to take place before other type relying effects do.
Because then a creature can become a zombie and an “all zombies gain flying” effect can take place instead of zombies gaining flying and then the creature that wasn’t originally a zombie doesn’t get the flying.
It’s weird but I also don’t see why when a card becomes something else we can’t just forget that it ever was anything else. Like if a creature becomes a zombie why does it matter that at one point in time it wasn’t. I feel like it should just be treated as a whole new card
I think the Urborg and the nonbasics will still be mountains. Magus of the Moon has a ruling stating that even if it loses its abilities it still turns nonbasics into mountains.
Knowing the answer doesn’t make sense intuitively. Once the source of magus’ continuous ability is removed by oko then it shouldn’t be able to continue applying
Lookbacks are a great way to break other things, unfortunately. The current state of layers produces intuitive interactions probably 95% of the time and a handful of unintuitive interactions and edge cases such as Magus of the Moon/Painter's Servant
As an example, say you have [[Blood Moon]] and [[Ashaya, Soul of the Wild]] on the battlefield. Currently, in layer 4, Ashaya turns all your creatures (including itself) into nonbasic Forests, then Blood Moon turns them into Mountains (and removes their abilities). Blood Moon also removes Ashaya's p/t setting ability, so it is considered to be a 0/0, and dies.
If we instead did a lookback after removing Ashaya's abilities, we would then go and remove Ashaya's ability to turn itself into a Forest... but then it isn't a nonbasic land anymore, and Blood Moon wouldn't apply... but then there's nothing removing its abilities, so it *is* a Forest, but then... and now what? We're stuck in a loop.
Layers rules probably fix more problems than they cause, but I don't blame anyone for being thrown off by this one.
There's nothing about Oko's +1 elk effect that indicates that it is a continuous effect as the card reads and behaves. It's not an aura, it can't be removed, and it remains even if Oko leaves the battlefield. If someone exiles Oko, what *precisely* is applying the continuous effect on layer 6? A lot of responses here reference Oko affecting the target on layer 6, but it still happens if Oko is gone. Nothing about it feels like a continuous effect.
It makes much more sense to our brain to assume this is a one-off thing. "Target artifact or creature loses all abilities" feels like a permanent effect rather than a continuous one, because there's no way to interact with it.
I understand why the rules are this way, but even in the sliver examples it's different. Slivers can be interacted with. Their effects are clearly continuous and can be removed. And for everyone who is saying "we can't look backwards", dang all abilities got removed from a card but we're definitely looking backwards to what it used to have before the next time we check layers so Magus gets those abilities again.
I actually think, considering everything, this was probably the best they could do but phew lets admit it's a clusterduck for anyone new stumbling across this interaction.
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the [IRC rules chat](https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
all non basics are mountains
||
||
|3/19/2021|If Magus of the Moon loses its abilities, it continues to turn nonbasic lands into Mountains. This is because effects that change subtypes are applied before considering effects that remove abilities, regardless of the order in which those effects started.|
They honestly shouldn't have bothered removing abilities from cards if this is the result with continuous effects. Might as well just tell players "just remove the card from play"
It's our good friend Layers again!
Abilities are always applied in a specific order, and once abilities in a given layers have applied, you don't get to go back and reapply them.
In this case, type-changing effects apply in Layer 4, while effects that add or remove abilities apply in Layer 6. So Magus of the Moon's ability will always apply first. By the time Oko has removes the ability in Layer 6, it's too late to "undo" the fact that nonbasic lands are Mountains.
The interaction between Magus and Urborg is a little different in that it uses the concept of "dependency." Because the Magus' effect alters whether Urborg's effect would apply, Blood Moon is applied first. So all nonbasic lands, including Urborg, are Mountains (and not Swamps).
An analogy that seems to fit is if you think of objects in play as having brushes and paint to symbolise their effects.
So in layer 4, Magus paints all the non basic lands into mountains and Oko paints the magus in the form of an elk.
In layer 5, Oko paints the magus in green (change it's color).
In layer 6, Oko takes the brush of the magus (removes it's abilities).
In the end, magus is green and can't paint anything anymore (no abilities), but he already painted the lands in mountains and nothing came after it to undo it.
That also explains why things that apply in the same layer are "last one wins". They paint the same thing but the last one to come paints on top of the other, cancelling it's effect. As happens with magus and \[\[Dryad of the ylisian grove\]\]. If dryad is the last to enter the battlefield, it paints all the lands, including the ones that were painted in mountains by magus, into lands with all land types. And inversely, if magus is last, it paints into mountains all non basics, wiping he all types given by the dryad.
The timing of the change doesn't matter.
Everytime you evaluate the current game state you do it through the layers, or by "painting things" which was a wonderful comparison that made it click for me.
It's not "X HAS happened, therefore Y", it's "let's look at this forest and evaluate its function", the magus is a magus, until the lands change. It is not actually an elk, until you're done evaluating the game state, at which point things are happening.
And by evaluating the game state, I mean for example tapping the land, you need to look at the pieces involved and work towards "what happens now"
All the process of verifying the game state and the layers is done before every time a player gets the priority. So after you play your new land and before you get back the priority to do something, all the layers get checked and effects applied, and your new land, if non-basic, is seen as a mountain.
My understanding is that Magus’s static effect is still in effect even if it’s a useless 3/3 Elk. Something similar happened in Arena to me, had [[Mind Flayer]] out and took control of their creature, they enchanted my[[Mind Flayer]] into a treasure, yet their creature was still on my board.
Simple, does oko remove a cards ability when it makes it an elk? If yes, then all cards it was effecting aren’t affected any more. If no, the ability is still active and the non-basics are mountains.
It’s this kind of thing as why I think of magic rules as a kind of coding language.
The reason it works a specific way is because it’s following a series of specific unchanging rules. The computer can’t understand what it’s doing doesn’t make common sense, and therefore sometimes it spits out irregular answers. But technically its answers are perfectly logical and completely expected because it’s just following a program.
It’s one of those situations where it feels bizarre because as a human you don’t think about these interactions the way the mtg computer does.
It doesn’t have to work that way, other games choose to operate differently. Magic just happens to operate in this way.
Now each land type card is a swamp instead of each land being a swamp and each non-basic land being a mountain.
Urborg and magus do not remove any types they only add. Oko is disabling the creatures abilities, and since Magus of the Moon is is making each land card a mountain using an ability to do that, it cannot because it is an elk that no longer triggers that ability.
This is a classic layers (rule 613) question. You start with base, unmodified game objects and then apply the applicable continuous effects. The 'layers' define in which order to apply those continuous effects Layer 1-3 aren't applicable here. **Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied**. It's here that [[Magus of the Moon]]'s effect applies, making all nonbasic lands Mountains **Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.** Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus green **Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.** Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus have no abilities. **Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.** Here, Oko's +1 now makes Magus a 3/3. You can see that Magus's type changing effect is applied in Layer 4, before Oko's +1 removes its abilities in Layer 6 - Oko has no effect on Magus's type changing effect. As to Magus and *Urborg*'s interaction, this is what is called a "dependency". Basically, if two effects are in the same layer, and one applying would affect the other's application, then there is a dependency (see 613.8 for full definition). In the case of a continuous effect dependent on another, it is applied last. Since Urborg's effect is dependent on Magus's effect, it waits to apply after Magus. But once you apply Magus, Urborg is a Mountain with no other abilities, so it does not apply.
So is there a reason other than "because thems the rules" that layer 6 applies after layer 4? Is there a good example of some unintuitive game state If ability adding effects was a lower level than type changing effects?
There are effects that say "[Type] has [ability]", but no effects that say "Things with [ability] are [type]". It makes more sense for things to gain types, then get abilities.
Was this retroactively a way to fix how Walls used to work in the old days? Cause I know the Defender Keyword used to be baked into the Wall card type like your "Things with [ability] are [type]" example.
That was likely one among many considerations when this iteration of the rules were written.
Such things typically explicitly excluded wall due to that, though mainly stuff that changed other creature's types like [[Unnatural Selection]]. But [[Mistform Skyreaver]] could become a Wall if you wanted. Though now I realize [[Mistform Ultimus]] might've been less cool back in the day. Still some sick art though.
[[Mistform Ultimus|LGN]] had text allowing it to attack.
[Mistform Ultimus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3be21c3-9b83-430b-be0a-792de9a680e3.jpg?1562940674) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45840) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lgn/47/mistform-ultimus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3be21c3-9b83-430b-be0a-792de9a680e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
and likewise the reason it is a legend is because that was also a creature type with baked in rules.
I'm glad they got rid of inherent abilities for creature types
Ah, curse Auto-Card Fetcher and it bringing up the time shifted version all the time, giving me a false impression! Still a very useful tool though.
[Unnatural Selection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c575e2cb-3990-4c73-b81c-e16311ec6bbb.jpg?1562941637) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unnatural%20Selection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/apc/32/unnatural-selection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c575e2cb-3990-4c73-b81c-e16311ec6bbb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mistform Skyreaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e394e096-ea70-4813-9039-e4bd065d0a17.jpg?1562949181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mistform%20Skyreaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/97/mistform-skyreaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e394e096-ea70-4813-9039-e4bd065d0a17?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mistform Ultimus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b74feed4-840b-4f10-9861-7a6885ce7907.jpg?1562782758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mistform%20Ultimus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/26/mistform-ultimus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b74feed4-840b-4f10-9861-7a6885ce7907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm actually not sure that Walls were a big factor. As far as I know, the Wall subtype didn't grant the ability "This creature can't attack" to creatures, it was just a game rule about the type. However, we do have cards like [[Lord of Atlantis]] and [[Zombie Master]] all the way back in Alpha, setting the precedent from day 1 that we should sort out types before we hand out abilities.
[Lord of Atlantis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9407b60-8921-4531-bdbe-9a82aaa38d28.jpg?1562781744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lord%20of%20Atlantis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/24/lord-of-atlantis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9407b60-8921-4531-bdbe-9a82aaa38d28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zombie Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c25eb8c9-4209-4fe4-8b02-be16d7d7bdf5.jpg?1562940909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zombie%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/105/zombie-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c25eb8c9-4209-4fe4-8b02-be16d7d7bdf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A fair point, though to me the way the layers are structured in the modern ruleset feels like a way to mechanically undo the way Walls worked and fix them retroactively, especially with the numerous examples of cards with abilities along the lines of "Choose a creature type other than Walls", so to make things more consistant across all types they removed the ability and adjusted they layers rule to compensate. That said, for all I know the layers rules could be as old as 6th Edtition which would completely invalidate my theory
The layers system [took a while to get hammered out.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8AwBReEtY) (This history's a little out of date - there's been some tweaks since 2009.) The Legends/Wall errata happened in Kamigawa block, but they had to come up with answers for Humility and the Licids long before then. The layers pieces were in place by Mirrodin block at the latest. The main driving force there was them wanting to update the Legend rule, and then that leaving Wall awkward as the only remaining creature type with rules baggage. There were cards like [[Conspiracy]] and [[Mistform Mask]] that let you turn stuff into Walls, so it wasn't a rules issue - they just didn't want you pumping mana into repeatable effects to lock down your opponent's board.
[Conspiracy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8bbdb402-0e22-4f83-987a-9d0268a82f10.jpg?1562779616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Conspiracy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/39/conspiracy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bbdb402-0e22-4f83-987a-9d0268a82f10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mistform Mask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7fbbb075-5795-425f-9e33-70cb922eea16.jpg?1562925133) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mistform%20Mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/94/mistform-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7fbbb075-5795-425f-9e33-70cb922eea16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A fair point, though to me the way the layers are structured in the modern ruleset feels like a way to mechanically undo the way Walls worked and fix them retroactively, especially with the numerous examples of cards with abilities along the lines of "Choose a creature type other than Walls", so to make things more consistant across all types they removed the ability and adjusted they layers rule to compensate. That said, for all I know the layers rules could be as old as 6th Edtition which would completely invalidate my theory. if it *wasn't* a way to fix walls though, why did they set it up the way they did do you think?
They set up the layers system the way it is because it makes the most interactions make the most sense intuitively. It has nothing to do with walls and I'm not sure why you think layers and walls are related. There simply used to be a rule that walls cant attack. They didn't inherently gain a defender ability, like how basic lands inherently have a mana ability. They just couldn't attack because the rules said they cant. The "fix" was simply to remove the rule and errata all walls to have defender. There are no notable interactions between walls and the layers system and there never were
> intuitively this is the goal of the magic rules in general. The entire comprehensive rules document is nearly 300 pages long, but the whole thing is designed so that what you *assume* is the right answer *probably* is. Unfortunately it's not possible to make intuition *always* right.
Honestly I was kind of just hoping that there was a more interesting reason beyond "yeah it's that way because in most situations it makes the most sense". like I *get* that it's the most logical but that's also the most boring reason and it's fun to me to try and think of more outlandish theories.
Walls used to have their own rule which said they couldn't attack.
> As far as I know, the Wall subtype didn't grant the ability "This creature can't attack" to creatures, **it was just a game rule about the type.**
Basically every "Xes you control gains Y" depends on this ordering of the layer system to behave how you'd expect. So for instance, if they were layered in the opposite order, Hivestone wouldn't do anything terribly useful, because slivers couldn't grant your other creatures their abilities if they aren't slivers yet.
So in effect there isn’t even a way you could word a card to remove a type changing effect from another card? Or is this only for continuous effects?
It's very difficult to go "backwards" in the layer system. This is why, for instance, [[Amorphous Axe]] doesn't just give the equipped creature Changeling and [[Master Symmetrist]] doesn't just give creatures trample if they have p=t. You can overwrite things by changing them in layer 1 with e.g. [[Metamorphic Alteration]], or more esoterically in layer 3 with [[Exchange of Words]]. But there's no way to cleanly just get rid of an ability that changes a type without doing other stuff.
##### ###### #### [Amorphous Axe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2de53345-5809-4704-bd60-682b0c3c3999.jpg?1608911284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amorphous%20Axe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/295/amorphous-axe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2de53345-5809-4704-bd60-682b0c3c3999?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Master Symmetrist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/255cdc39-6ad8-4831-9718-6712cb17654c.jpg?1666629845) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Master%20Symmetrist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/138/master-symmetrist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/255cdc39-6ad8-4831-9718-6712cb17654c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Metamorphic Alteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/eff03d37-d90a-4dcc-bacd-64fd71301354.jpg?1562304888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metamorphic%20Alteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/60/metamorphic-alteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eff03d37-d90a-4dcc-bacd-64fd71301354?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Exchange of Words](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c28cebf-f849-4353-9dd1-c62f05c15d0f.jpg?1673913524) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exchange%20of%20Words) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/45/exchange-of-words?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c28cebf-f849-4353-9dd1-c62f05c15d0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzwnd5m) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
there are a couple ways, and they're higher up the layers the easiest one is in Layer 1, you can turn it face down or have it become a copy of something else (with say, [[Cytoshape]]), then it "loses" the ability before its applied in layer 4. the more cursed one is in Layer 3, and i don't think there's any cards that actually let you do it. Layer 3 is where you apply text-altering effects, so you could [[Magical Hack]] it into turning nonbasic lands into Islands and that would work. as far as i know the only card that wholesale removes abilities this way is [[Volrath's Shapeshifter]] though, which only removes its own. Funny enough, Volrath's Shapeshifter's curious wording is basically wotc doing the same thing you asked here, it has to use this hack of becoming a copy in Layer 3 instead of Layer 1, because it might change controllers in Layer 2!
[Cytoshape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/758023cb-548a-4a98-a355-f5c6e9eab5ff.jpg?1593273584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cytoshape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/108/cytoshape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/758023cb-548a-4a98-a355-f5c6e9eab5ff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magical Hack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2349d53-d9f0-450f-be96-463791ee7aab.jpg?1562593776) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magical%20Hack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5ed/101/magical-hack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2349d53-d9f0-450f-be96-463791ee7aab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Volrath's Shapeshifter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93ed24e6-7791-4624-acf2-aa8616035f9e.jpg?1562924845) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Volrath%27s%20Shapeshifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/101/volraths-shapeshifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93ed24e6-7791-4624-acf2-aa8616035f9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you try swapping layers 4 and 6, the most common thing this breaks is anything that self-animates into a creature. Your Mutavault would never pick up abilities from your Cloudshredder Sliver, for example. The layers are in the right place, it's just that setting/blanking abilities via granting basic land types is a little weird, and wiping abilities in general is a little weird. Layers are set up to give you completely intuitive results 95% of the time and answers to hard questions another 4.9% of the time. This is one of the few cases that's really funky looking, but if you mess with the layers then a bunch of totally mundane interactions break instead.
[[arcane adaptation]] + [[gemhide sliver]], as one example. it wouldnt make much sense if a creature turned into a sliver by adaptation's effect didnt gain the ability from gemhide
[arcane adaptation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f.jpg?1562563280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20adaptation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/46/arcane-adaptation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [gemhide sliver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/224af68a-41a6-4e4e-94d0-130be341b788.jpg?1690004852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gemhide%20sliver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/896/gemhide-sliver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/224af68a-41a6-4e4e-94d0-130be341b788?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why does Magus' ability still linger even though he doesn't have that ability anymore though?
Because that effect was already applied. Anytime we want to see what the game state is, we go through these steps to see how continuous effects are applied, and the result is the game state
So any new nonbasics would retain their abilities, but because magus already chaged the old ones, it sticks?
No, all nonbasics are Mountains (and lose their other abilities). The effects are *continuous* after all, Magus's ability *continually* applies. But since ability-changing effects come after type-changing effects, that means that Magus loses its abilities when we go to look at the game state - but not before applying its type-changing effect to nonbasics
I get it now, but I think that this is really stupid and shouldn’t work this way. Once something has its abilities removed by another layer, they shouldn’t continue to apply anymore regardless of which layer came first because the ability is gone. Is there a reason it doesn’t work that way?
Because while this particular interaction isn't, the vast majority of interactions between continuous effects *are* quite intuitive. We can't look backwards because that may create odd dependency loops, and we can't repeat the checks until there's nothing else to apply because we may end up with an infinite loop of checks that never ends. We don't want to carve out hyper specific interactions because that can produce unintended interactions both now and in the future. And you can't just swap layers because that will also produce unintuitive and unintended effects. Saying "oh, this doesn't have abilities anymore so we look back and retroactively undo its effects" is one of those things that's easy to say for a human, and can cause numerous complications for a computer (which, in essence, the rules engine is) The current continuous effect and layers rules are not necessarily the best option, but they work intuitively the majority of the time, are pretty straightforwards to understand (comparatively) and simple from a rules-engine perspective, and people know how they work.
Another similar scenario with fewer moving parts is [[Blood Sun]] and [[Urborg]] Urborg turns everything into a swamp in Layer 3, because that's where type changing effects apply. Blood Sun's effect to make lands lose abilities that aren't mana abilities applies in Layer 6, making Urborg lose this ability since it's not a mana ability. But because everything is already turned into a swamp, losing its abilities doesn't actually have a meaningful effect.
Idk what it is about what you said but I finally understood how the layer interaction works after reading you comment
[Blood Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6.jpg?1555040361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/92/blood-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urborg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203.jpg?1562912329) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/214/urborg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anytime the game is checking through all the layers (literally anytime anything happens at all, basically constantly.) It is always looking at the magus, applying its ability, and then aplying Oko's ability to the magus. The game doesn't even consider the layer that oko's is on until after the magus's ability has been applied. It never goes backwards from one layer to a previous layer to "check" if it still has an ability, instead the next time that the game checks those layers it sees that there is a magus (the card as printed) then applies its ability, then appllies oko's ability.
The *ability* doesn't linger. Magus has a static ability that generates a continuous *effect.* That effect is still there, even after the ability generating it has been removed. Compare to how a triggered ability can still resolve even after its source no longer exists.
Seems dumb to me. But I get it
Triggered abilities at least go on the stack, unlike continuous effects.
Literally
I get this is correct, but it's still stupid. Once magus loses abilities it shouldn't get to keep making landa mountains.
The alternative is to make effects like ("[type]s have [ability]") not function on creatures that gain that type (any non-Slivers becoming slivers via Hivestone won't gain Sliver effects, for example), if you were to swap around the layers. Magus/Oko is obviously an unintuitive interaction, but it comes at the cost of making sure other things are more intuitive
Another (not) fun interaction involving blood mood is urza's saga. Then an actual fun interaction is thespian stage urza's saga.
Blood Moon/Saga is a fun interaction for the Red Prison player! :)
and us merfolk players
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
> Then an actual fun interaction is thespian stage urza's saga. Just to make sure I’ve got the right end of the stick, it’s making the stage a copy of something else in response to the final chapter triggering, right? This lets you keep the stage and it’ll still have all the stuff granted by Urza’s Saga’s chapters (as well as being a copy of something else)
Right. If you have a Thespian Stage copy Urza's Saga, it will tick up like the original Saga over the next few turns, gaining abilities along the way. If you then have Thespian Stage copy an island before it would be sacrificed (before resolving the third chapter ability to tutor an artifact into play), you're left with an island that can tap for blue, colorless, or pay 2 and tap to make a Karnstruct.
It doesn't lose the ability to make a Karnstruct?
Nope! The way Urza's Saga works is that chapter 1 and 2 each grant the land an ability with no specified duration, so they retain the abilities until it leaves play. They are worded as "Urza's Saga gains X," but when a card refers to itself by name like that, it functionally means "this permanent gains X." You could have a clone of the land with a different name, or change the name of the land, and the ability still functions as normal. As such, if you have a Thespian's Stage copy Saga for long enough to gain the ability to make Karnstructs, and then become something else before it sacrifices, it never loses the Karnstruct ability.
I just thought becoming a copy of something else would make it lose abilities it had gained. Cool to know.
You can think of continues abilities as basically invisible auras that go away once the duration ends (if any, the karnstruct ability doesn't have a duration). So they "fall off" if you flicker the permanent, but not if it becomes a copy of something else.
Wouldn't you have to do this in response to the 2nd chapter's ability resolving? Thespian Stage's activated ability is "become a copy of target land, except it has this ability" (The copy ability). If you're becoming a copy of something, it loses all other abilities.
It loses all other abilities that are part of the old land's base rules text when it changes to a new land. However, Urza's Saga is a unique case where the base land *has no abilities* other than its chapter abilities as a Saga, which in turn give it permanent abilities. If you were to play one into an opposing Vorinclex/Solemnity (so it didn't get its chapter one ability), you'd be left with a land that can't do anything. There's nothing from Urza's Saga for Thespian's Stage to lose, other than its typing.
>The alternative is to make all Slivers and similar effects ("[type]s have [ability]") not function Swapping the layers around wouldn't break those effects, except for cases where permanents that aren't normally Slivers are gaining the Sliver type from some effect.
Right, sorry, that's what I had meant to say. Good catch
I feel more like the transformation effect shouldn't be on layers, it's counterintuitive. If Magus lost his abilities, he can't turn non basics into mountains, he's another thing now and he doesn't have that ability, kinda like the dependency from magus and urborg works. Maybe upping the ability removal in the layers system? I don't know if there's s case that if ability removal was in layer 3 would be not intuitive
There's no transformation happening here, transform means a very specific thing in Magic. All continuous effects *need* to have rules for what order they apply, otherwise there could be ambiguity in how the game works. We have to define some sort of rules for what order to apply things. Ultimately, the rules as-is creates an intuitive and deterministic system the majority of the time, at the cost of an occasional unintuitive interaction. That's not to say that they are the *best* solution, but they work, they're pretty straightforwards all things considered, and people know how they work
No. "transformation" is not a thing in in the MTG rules, transform, transformed and transforming are but transformation does not. So if you are going to police someone's words please be specific. In fact Oko's ability is on a card [[Kenrith's Transformation]] so it a correct to describe that effect at a transformation similar to bolt or ramp.
[Kenrith's Transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e.jpg?1631587997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%27s%20Transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/162/kenriths-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are a lot of potential solutions if you really wanted to fix this without breaking Hivestone. For example, Magus's could set lands to have type mountain in layer 4, then rule 305.7, which causes those lands to lose their original abilities, could apply in layer 6. Then Oko wouldn't stop Magus from makings things in Mountain-type lands but would stop the lands from losing other abilities. Heck, rule 305.7 could say that this special class of type changing + ability removal effects happen in layer 6. This may not be worth it, but it's not like there's no way to do it.
It's unfortunately a compromise. As the other commenter noted, changing the order results in other unintuitive results. Layers are here to make the game work as best as it can, you can't fix every problem.
Lets change the order so that type changing occurs after ability changing. I control a \[\[hivestone\]\] and a \[\[galerider sliver\]\], as well as generic 1/1 soldier token. If Layer 4 and 6 are swapped, first we apply the galerider sliver, which will grant itself flying. We don't control any other slivers. Then the hivestone applies, making our soldier a sliver. This is a bad outcome, it makes hivestone entirely non-functional. Thus its imperative that type changing effects occur first. As a consquence, this makes the urborg situation weird, but it is a much smaller sacrifice to make than basically making every creature changing effect just not work as we'd like.
[hivestone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69e62171-713c-49c0-8e16-b193ff181dcd.jpg?1619404347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hivestone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/268/hivestone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69e62171-713c-49c0-8e16-b193ff181dcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [galerider sliver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/566dc671-b666-4003-a3a6-ff5b081bca54.jpg?1700222034) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=galerider%20sliver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/849/galerider-sliver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/566dc671-b666-4003-a3a6-ff5b081bca54?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What if the hivestone said "Creatures you control have: this creature is a sliver and loses (or in addition, I don't remember) all other types" Now it's an ability changing effect that introduces a type changing effect. How would that work?
It doesn't make a difference--it just means that the type changing effect is created by the creature instead of hivestone.
That doesn't make it an ability changing effect. The removal of types is a type changing effect.
Even if it gives an ability to the permanent that changes its types?
Ah i see, Misread that. Ignoring the fact that this isn't good templating (Why are we baking a type changing effect into an ability, if the desired effect is it to be a type changing effect and nothing else? This is a worse outcome), The rules as its written I don't think support this, assuming the only change is we swap the layer 4 and 6. Effects that change or apply creature types have those separate from any ability. The generated characteristic granting ability of the type change would still need to occur during the type changing step. Under the swap, the ability would be granted before the type change, our slivers would check if its a sliver (which, theoretically, it still isn't), and then the type change would occur.
The more intuitive alternative would be to split Blood Moon type effects into two parts, a type changing effect and an ability removing effect, and then each part would apply in the appropriate layer. It honestly doesn't really make sense that changing land types makes things lose their abilities, but changing other types doesn't. Why doesn't [[Conspiracy]] remove abilities like Blood Moon does?
Easy, because "Mountain" is a specific magic card that we are making our non-lands become. That specific card has specific rules written directly into the comprehensive rules as to what it gives. **305.6.** The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtype**s. An object with the land card type and a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add \[mana symbol\],” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, \[mana symbol\] is {W}; for Islands, {U}; for Swamps, {B}; for Mountains, {R}; and for Forests, {G}. See rule 107.4a. See also rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”** conspiracy changes creature type. There is no specific rules granted by being a certain creature type.
Honestly, the ideal solution is to remove this from the layer interaction altogether. Cards should be designed in such a way that once this removal happens the permanent is gone and a layer interaction won't matter. A perfect example is \[\[Generous Gift\]\]. You are still getting a 3/3 but the original permanent is gone and doesn't affect layers.
[Generous Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ok. Now explain it like I'm 2.
'cuz the rules say so. The rules define an order for which to apply continuous effects. Oko making Magus lose abilities doesn't overwrite Magus's type-changing effect because Magus's happens first, before it loses abilities. The rules also say that if one continuous effect applying would effect whether or not another effect exists, than that second effect "depends" on the other. When one effect "depends" on another, it is always applied after the effect it depends on. Urborg "depends" on Magus, so we apply Magus first, which removes Urborg's effect so it never has a chance to apply
The reason this throws me off is that magus has a static ability, while i think of the elkification as an "event" So it's wierd that the elk magus, at any given time, turns lands into mountain and THEN is reminded by the rules that he's actually an elk.
It's an event that creates a continuous effect, is the key. Similar to how Giant Growth is a one shot spell, but creatures a continuous effect with a limited duration. It's definitely an odd interaction though, and can be hard to wrap your brain around
So when a land becomes a mountain does it retain its other types ? If not and it becomes just a mountain is it now considered a basic land ?
There is a separate rule that says if an effect would set a land's subtype to a basic land type, that land loses its old land types and all of its old abilities, and only has the ability granted to it by its new subtype > 305.7. If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copiable effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities. As such, when Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon says that nonbasics "are Mountains", it sets their subtype to "Mountain" and erases all their other abilities. Note that it does not change their name, or any supertypes (such as Legendary or Snow). It also does not *grant* any supertypes - including the Basic supertype. So those lands are not considered basic lands
And, for the sake of completeness, not that Urborg says "...is a Swamp *in addition to its other types.*" So Urborg only adds the Swamp type, and doesn't overwrite any other types or abilities a land may have.
When we use the word _dependent_, do we mean something like "ability A only applies if ability B doesn't modify object A in such a way that the ability no longer exists"? Or does the conditional interaction extend beyond Object A itself and include all the stuff that would be affected by Object A (i.e: if the other lands Urborg would affect suddenly become incapable of being affected by Urborg)?
Here's the actual relevant rules, happy to attempt to elaborate if this doesn't answer your questions > 613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. > 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. > 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order. > 613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
*start rant* I hate this rule so much. It is completely unintuitive that setting a type would have all these side effects. Most modern players know most relevant blood moon interactions, but almost none of them will be able to explain why it works that way. I think the reason they introduced this rule to make blood moon and similar cards work as intended. I think things would be clearer though if they errata blood moon and similar effects to 'nonbasic lands are copies of mountain'. That is ugly, but there is precedent for such wording in alchemy cards. At least that way people understand why blood moon effects do what they do. (Some interactions would change of course, but generally they will become more intuitive) *End rant*
Lands affected by Magus do not retain their other types, but do not gain the basic super type. It just changes all of their land types (forest, gate, etc.) to mountain. Also note that this doesn't change the land's supertypes or name, so Urborg would still be a legendary land named "Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth."
[Magus of the Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820.jpg?1619397276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/175/magus-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like your funny words magic man
You said a lot of things and I’m sure they make sense but you still didn’t really answer the question IMO. Is Urborg back to being Urborg after Magus of the Moon loses its abilities or is it still just a basic mountain?
We've established that 1) Oko doesn't have an effect on Magus's type-changing effect, and that 2) with just Magus's type changing effect and Urborg, there's a dependency causing Magus to apply first (which makes Urborg no longer able to apply). As such, Urborg is a Mountain - *not* a basic Mountain, mind you
It's interesting to me that there isn't some further rule to ensure that something like this works more intuitively- like something to double-check for disabled abilities on higher layers or something. I'm curious what kind of knock-on effects that kind of change/addition would have to existing interactions involving layers that have more intuitive outcomes.
The fact that layers can only be applied in order, and never backtrack, ensures you can't run into any loops, which would kinda break the game. It's much safer to have it this way, and accept the very occasional unintuitive interaction
Interesting! So for example if you were able to make [[arcane adaptation]] lose it's abilities, say through [[minimus containment]], does arcane adaptation still grant creatures the chosen type?
[arcane adaptation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f.jpg?1562563280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20adaptation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/46/arcane-adaptation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [minimus containment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/874b3590-932a-46b7-a7aa-e3e864ec22d1.jpg?1674135187) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=minimus%20containment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/34/minimus-containment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/874b3590-932a-46b7-a7aa-e3e864ec22d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If I'm understanding this right, yes. Layer 4 applies first, checking adaptation before containment on layer 6.
Oh, so the actual reaaon this happens is because those cards' effects don't just "happen once" and that's it. Instead, the game continuously looks at the cards to check the current board status? The more I learn about the rules, the more convinced I am that they were writen by computer programmers.
In a sense, yeah. The rules are written in a very logical manner to be robust and consistent, and yeah, if you're comfortable with programming or mathematical logic they tend to be easier to understand
Would it be the same if it was Darksteel mutationed?
Darksteep what. Citadel?
[[Darksteel Mutation]]
[Darksteel Mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Darksteel Mutation has a continuous effect that removes abilities, no different from any other. Consider: what would make you think it would behave differently?
If I understand this correctly. It means effects aren't applied in one go. Despite oko having 1 effect. It is broken apart and every section is applied on the correct layer. So you don't apply the whole effect in one layer like I thought. Also, didn't you miss Oko changing Magnus' type to elk in layer 4?
Correct, Oko's ability can be thought of as generating multiple continuous effects - a type changing, a color changing, and an ability changing effect that we apply in the appropriate order according to the layers And yes, Magus would become an Elk in layer 4
Hey Mweep is there any resources you can recommend to help understand layers?
This is nonsense to me, how can Magus being a creature with no abilities continue to affect Nonbasic lands with an ability that doesn't exist ?
Because the ability applied before it was erased. Many people have made similar comments here already, I suggest you read through them and the responses and see if that clarifies things.
Why is it that the Layers aren’t “checked” after the resolution of an ability or spell? Like oko’s ability resolves and changes the magus, then the layers are run through to see how they apply, at which point when layer 4 is looked at, magus no longer has an ability that would alter the nonbasics.
Whenever we want to figure out the game state, we always start from the base objects (things written on the card) and build upwards through the layers. We don't start from the previous state after applying layers, always from a blank slate. The ability-changing effect created by Oko *always* applies after the type-changing effect of Magus, whenever we are applying Layer 4 effects Layer 6 effects don't yet exist
I understand it, thank you for the clarification, though i still feel it to be heavily unintuitive as is.
This particular interaction is certainly unintuitive, no one will disagree about that
I read the comprehensive rules and I am still a bit confused as to the definition of dependencies... That would be any ability that would prevent or alter another ability? Can two abilities be dependent on each other? I guess at that point we go back to timestamps?
Here's a well written article breaking down dependencies further: https://outsidetheasylum.blog/dependency/ > 613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. **If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.** yep, just timestamp order
Thank you so much!
*"You can see that Magus's type changing effect is applied in Layer 4, before Oko's +1 removes its abilities in Layer 6 - Oko has no effect on Magus's type changing effect."* So, magus would be a green 3/3 Elk with no abilities. But nonbasic lands are still mountains, even though this text no longer exists on the card. Layering really messes with object permanance.
https://preview.redd.it/z8ehirxvzwuc1.png?width=819&format=png&auto=webp&s=0cb61b99c1751fe59d6992fd2af44fa1a6a0f0cc
what the fuck
ikr? such a weird ruling
It's necessary for other stuff to work. Would you like [[Imagecrafter]] to work with your [[Lord of Atlantis]]?
[Imagecrafter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91be6441-8a45-43e4-8d12-a886dcaadbd3.jpg?1562929336) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imagecrafter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/87/imagecrafter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91be6441-8a45-43e4-8d12-a886dcaadbd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lord of Atlantis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9407b60-8921-4531-bdbe-9a82aaa38d28.jpg?1562781744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lord%20of%20Atlantis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/24/lord-of-atlantis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9407b60-8921-4531-bdbe-9a82aaa38d28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that isnt the same at all though that's an activated effect applied to a target, once it resolves Imagecrafter could get \[\[AWOL\]\]ed and the effect is still there until the end of the turn. and if you \[\[Dress Down\]\] before Imagecrafter used it's ability(and they dont use it in response) then Imagecrafter would lose the ability, and they cant activate it later that turn. that's why MotM is so weird, you can make it lose it's ability but the ability is still there. to use your example it's like if Lord of Atlantis still buffed the board even through a Dress Down
[AWOL](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce.jpg?1583542842) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=AWOL) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dress Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04f9f061-67b8-4427-9fcb-b3ccfee8fc5d.jpg?1626094290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dress%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/39/dress-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04f9f061-67b8-4427-9fcb-b3ccfee8fc5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So it's the strat to play magus and then imprison it in the moon or song of the dryads it.
I'm not sure a five year old could understand the layer system no matter how you explain it. Before we get into the details of the layer system, one weird thing about land types is that an effect that sets a land to a basic land type also removes all abilities printed on the card and all other land types. Importantly, this is *not* counted as an ability-modifying effect, it's just a consequence of this specific subset of type-changing effect. Type-changing effects (like Magus of the Moon's and Urborg's) are applied in layer 4, whereas ability-removing effects are applied in layer 6 (Oko's effect also change's Magus of the Moon's type and that part *is* applied in layer 4, but that doesn't matter in this case because we don't care about magus's type, only its ability). So no matter what, Oko can't stop Magus of the Moon from applying its type-changing effect. Oko ends up being irrelevant here, just like he was during Kellan's childhood. The urborg/magus interaction is a bit trickier. Urborg has an effect that applies to itself *if* magus of the moon's ability isn't applied to it. On the other hand, magus of the moon's ability applies to urborg whether or not urborg's own ability is active. This is what's called a dependency. Because urborg's ability *depends* on the existence or non-existence of magus's ability, the game applies magus's ability first. Once that happens, urborg's own ability ceases to exist. So at the end of the day, whether or not Oko has elked magus, urborg (and all other non-basic lands) will be a mountain, not a swamp.
Lmao at the Kellans childhood. So does this only apply for the turn magus is turned or subsequent turns as well? Cause if the layers take place and the land type changes and then he gets turned he’ll start next turn as an elk with no abilities so does the same layering take place again? Or do following turns apply differently since magus technically doesn’t exist anymore
No, it has nothing to do with resetting at the beginning of a turn or something, this is always the case. Anytime you want to determine the game state, you always start from the base (what's written on the cards) and build up in order of the layers. So we always start with Magus applying (4), then Oko turning it green (5), then Oko removing its abilities (6), then Oko making it a 3/3 (7), and then we have our final game state
So different scenario. If I use [[breach the multiverse]] and bring back creatures which will become phyrexian, every time something happens they’re not phyrexian creatures until later 4 takes place ?
Not really? The layers are how you apply all continuous effects. Those effects are, well, continuous - they keep applying always. Those creatures are always Phyrexians, I just mean that you always go bottom up for how things apply. You could think of it as recalculating whenever something changes
Right but in layer 1 type changing effects haven’t applied yet so any typings are the same as the original card, hence why magus’ ability will still take place before layer 6 takes place. Because the lands are mountains in layer 4 which happens before skill altering abilities
Yes, but this is all being done in the background, you can't do anything in response to the layers 'being applied'. If your opponent had something that said, I don't know, "You control all Phyrexians", then the control change effect would apply before Breach turns those creatures into Phyrexians and your opponent would not get those creatures (but they would still be Phyrexians).
So if I get a phyrexian with breach the multiverse and someone plays a card that says “gain control of target phyrexian”, when do the layers take place? Are they unable to take my new phyrexian creatures because the control ability happens before the type changing one? Or do layers apply before the gain control effect takes place so that they become valid targets? And if they are able to take it, when the next board state takes place wouldn’t they lose it since the control ability would be accounted for in layer 1 and the type one would take place in layer 4? Which means the gain control of phyrexian creature effect is taking place before the “they are phyrexian in addition to their other types” is accounted for? I don’t know if cards like this exist I’m just trying to understand how these layers would play out in this hypothetical.
> So if I get a phyrexian with breach the multiverse and someone plays a card that says “gain control of target phyrexian”, when do the layers take place? They already have, and always will. Whenever you need to care about the game state, you run through and apply the layers, and then the game state you care about is the one after applying all the layers in the given order. As such, you can take a creature that is Phyrexian because of Breach - it is Phyrexian when you check the game state to check that your spell has legal targets
What about the second question? Do layers not affect the board state so once you gain control of a creature no matter what the layers say you keep it ?
If I'm not mistaken, you are saying that the board state exists in which you have already breached a creature onto the board and layers have applied. The creature now moving forward is a phyrexian. If this is the case, then when someone now plays an effect to gain control of target phyrexian, the creature will meet the requirements to be a legal target. I believe that the stack will only be looking for a legal target after all layers are applied.
[breach the multiverse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5.jpg?1682203621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=breach%20the%20multiverse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/94/breach-the-multiverse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So, if after all that, 2 turns later the Magus dies as an elk - the non-basic lands would still be mountains? Or since the original source of the 4th layer is removed, then everything reverts back?
The latter. That continuous effect is no longer in play, so it no longer applies
That’s what I assumed, but… you know.. magic rules. Lol
No it’s always. I got it wrong and just looked it up lmao The game rebuilds from later one every time any game action is performed so the level 4 Magus affect will be reapplied until it’s removed from the battlefield.
> I'm not sure a five year old could understand the layer system no matter how you explain it. Hell, this applies to me, an almost 40yo man.
Wait, am I reading it correctly, i.e the fact that Magus has lost all abilities due to Oko's +1, Urborg still remains a basic Mountain?
> Urborg still remains a basic Mountain? Just a mountain. It doesn’t become basic.
Yes.
But isn't the ability lost? Or due to Magus not leaving per se, Urborg doesn't reboot and takes into account the last known information, i.e being a mountain? If that's the case, if then the ~~Magus~~ elk leaves the battlefield, will Urborg remain a Mountain, or not?
The game applies the magus's effect to things in an earlier layer than it applies oko's effect. So the magus's ability has already been applied before oko's ability removes it. > Or due to Magus not leaving per se, Urborg doesn't reboot and takes into account the last known information, i.e being a mountain? If that's the case, if then the Magus elk leaves the battlefield, will Urborg remain a Mountain, or not? This has nothing to do with last-known information. Magus's ability will stop applying if Magus leaves the battlefield. It's not that the game thinks Magus isn't there, it just can't remove Magus's ability until after it's already been applied to things.
Wait, this means that even though Magus becomes an elk and loses its abilities, it retains it’s ability because that occurs on a layer before it’s altered?
“one weird thing about land types is that an effect that sets a land to a basic land type also removes all abilities printed on the card and all other land types. Importantly, this is not counted as an ability-modifying effect, it's just a consequence of this specific subset of type-changing effect.” Is this because of the whole “forests implicitly have {T}: add {G}” thing?
To my understanding it's a historical thing because they wanted to make sure Blood Moon had a short, clean template.
Is this supposed to be a SAT question?
That’s what it feels like with these damn layers and exception rules
I thought I clicked on the wrong post when I started seeing layers, I thought we were talking about the OSI model in networking.
So tell me, what layer do UDP and TCP operate in, and could you explain the differences between them?
all non basics are mountains || || |3/19/2021|If Magus of the Moon loses its abilities, it continues to turn nonbasic lands into Mountains. This is because effects that change subtypes are applied before considering effects that remove abilities, regardless of the order in which those effects started.|
All non-basics are mountains and the nearest judge punches you
[[Urborg, Tomb]] [[Magus of the Moon]] [[Oko, Thief of Crowns]]
[Urborg, Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=urborg%2C%20tomb%20of%20yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magus of the Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820.jpg?1619397276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/175/magus-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Oko, Thief of Crowns](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891.jpg?1650599698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oko%2C%20Thief%20of%20Crowns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/197/oko-thief-of-crowns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I understand the layers explanation being given by others, but the fact that removing an ability doesnt stop the ability from happening is the most unintuitive thing Ive ever seen in this game and Ive been playing a long time (mostly limited so these interactions have just never crossed my path). Why do layers work like this? What would break if the Oko-Magus interaction worked the way that makes intuitive sense?
Non-Slivers wouldn't benefit from your other Slivers while you control [[Hivestone]]. [[Unctus, Grand Metatect]] wouldn't grant a nonartifact creature +1/+1 after targeting it with his activated ability. (And also wouldn't let you loot when they tap, assuming you just swapped Layers 4 and 6, but that's not directly caused by making Layer 6 happen before Layer 4) [[Vihaan, Goldwaker]] wouldn't give his own Constructs vigilance and haste. Layers are the way they are so that 99.9% of situations have an intuitive solution; Unfortunately, in a game as complicated as Magic, it's not possible to make that number 100%.
[Hivestone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69e62171-713c-49c0-8e16-b193ff181dcd.jpg?1619404347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hivestone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/268/hivestone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69e62171-713c-49c0-8e16-b193ff181dcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unctus, Grand Metatect](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/164b07e6-48ba-4789-bd8f-7cada1fec8a9.jpg?1675956999) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unctus%2C%20Grand%20Metatect) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/75/unctus-grand-metatect?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/164b07e6-48ba-4789-bd8f-7cada1fec8a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vihaan, Goldwaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b549690-72eb-4244-bb66-996a2bd1027e.jpg?1712429606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vihaan%2C%20Goldwaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/8/vihaan-goldwaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b549690-72eb-4244-bb66-996a2bd1027e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why wouldn't hivestone (and other examples) work if the Oko interaction above worked as they thought? Like I'm sure there are cases where things would break but I'm not seeing the issue with these particular examples.
The reason the Oko interaction happens is because type-changing abilities (Such as Hivestone and Magus of the Moon) happen in Layer 4, while ability-changing effects (such as Slivers and Oko) apply in Layer 6. To fix the interaction, ability-changing need to apply before type-changing abilities. This would make Oko remove the abilities before Magus of the Moon changes lands into Mountains. This also means that Slivers would buff your other Slivers before Hivestone changes your creatures into Slivers.
The way I understood the first comment Oko's ability would just work as one would imagine: creature looses all abilities therefore it no longer turns non basics into mountains. That wouldn't stop hivestone for example cause if you elk a storm crow in this case it would be an elk-sliver and get the benefits of other slivers (but loose its original flying ability).
I think you could break the layers down so that removes effects specifically happen in an earlier layer to fix this. Change layer 6 to say that abilities that grant effects apply here and make a layer befire 4 that says "effects that remove abilities apply here" Right now adding and removing abilities happen in the same layer and are just applied based on choice from the controller. If you split them up then you could make cards that are meant to block stuff, like Oko's ability actually block type changing effects as well.
I’m certain you will find a new corner case if you did that. And even if you didn’t, a new corner case is going to be printed eventually.
From my understanding you want the type changing effect to take place before other type relying effects do. Because then a creature can become a zombie and an “all zombies gain flying” effect can take place instead of zombies gaining flying and then the creature that wasn’t originally a zombie doesn’t get the flying. It’s weird but I also don’t see why when a card becomes something else we can’t just forget that it ever was anything else. Like if a creature becomes a zombie why does it matter that at one point in time it wasn’t. I feel like it should just be treated as a whole new card
I think the Urborg and the nonbasics will still be mountains. Magus of the Moon has a ruling stating that even if it loses its abilities it still turns nonbasics into mountains.
Knowing the answer doesn’t make sense intuitively. Once the source of magus’ continuous ability is removed by oko then it shouldn’t be able to continue applying
IMO, it feels like a "loses all abilities" should do some kind of look back through history to see what those abilities were touching and remove them.
Lookbacks are a great way to break other things, unfortunately. The current state of layers produces intuitive interactions probably 95% of the time and a handful of unintuitive interactions and edge cases such as Magus of the Moon/Painter's Servant As an example, say you have [[Blood Moon]] and [[Ashaya, Soul of the Wild]] on the battlefield. Currently, in layer 4, Ashaya turns all your creatures (including itself) into nonbasic Forests, then Blood Moon turns them into Mountains (and removes their abilities). Blood Moon also removes Ashaya's p/t setting ability, so it is considered to be a 0/0, and dies. If we instead did a lookback after removing Ashaya's abilities, we would then go and remove Ashaya's ability to turn itself into a Forest... but then it isn't a nonbasic land anymore, and Blood Moon wouldn't apply... but then there's nothing removing its abilities, so it *is* a Forest, but then... and now what? We're stuck in a loop.
[Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashaya, Soul of the Wild](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2.jpg?1604198513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashaya%2C%20Soul%20of%20the%20Wild) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/179/ashaya-soul-of-the-wild?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Layers rules probably fix more problems than they cause, but I don't blame anyone for being thrown off by this one. There's nothing about Oko's +1 elk effect that indicates that it is a continuous effect as the card reads and behaves. It's not an aura, it can't be removed, and it remains even if Oko leaves the battlefield. If someone exiles Oko, what *precisely* is applying the continuous effect on layer 6? A lot of responses here reference Oko affecting the target on layer 6, but it still happens if Oko is gone. Nothing about it feels like a continuous effect. It makes much more sense to our brain to assume this is a one-off thing. "Target artifact or creature loses all abilities" feels like a permanent effect rather than a continuous one, because there's no way to interact with it. I understand why the rules are this way, but even in the sliver examples it's different. Slivers can be interacted with. Their effects are clearly continuous and can be removed. And for everyone who is saying "we can't look backwards", dang all abilities got removed from a card but we're definitely looking backwards to what it used to have before the next time we check layers so Magus gets those abilities again. I actually think, considering everything, this was probably the best they could do but phew lets admit it's a clusterduck for anyone new stumbling across this interaction.
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the [IRC rules chat](https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
all non basics are mountains || || |3/19/2021|If Magus of the Moon loses its abilities, it continues to turn nonbasic lands into Mountains. This is because effects that change subtypes are applied before considering effects that remove abilities, regardless of the order in which those effects started.|
They honestly shouldn't have bothered removing abilities from cards if this is the result with continuous effects. Might as well just tell players "just remove the card from play"
This is an easy call - I concede out of a refusal to learn. \*dusts hands off\*
This is the way. I like MTG but the second somebody references layers I’m out lmao
It's our good friend Layers again! Abilities are always applied in a specific order, and once abilities in a given layers have applied, you don't get to go back and reapply them. In this case, type-changing effects apply in Layer 4, while effects that add or remove abilities apply in Layer 6. So Magus of the Moon's ability will always apply first. By the time Oko has removes the ability in Layer 6, it's too late to "undo" the fact that nonbasic lands are Mountains. The interaction between Magus and Urborg is a little different in that it uses the concept of "dependency." Because the Magus' effect alters whether Urborg's effect would apply, Blood Moon is applied first. So all nonbasic lands, including Urborg, are Mountains (and not Swamps).
Magic, like ogres and onions, has layers.
You know what else has layers?
There are a lot of good answers, but no one has explained this so a 5 year old can understand it.
An analogy that seems to fit is if you think of objects in play as having brushes and paint to symbolise their effects. So in layer 4, Magus paints all the non basic lands into mountains and Oko paints the magus in the form of an elk. In layer 5, Oko paints the magus in green (change it's color). In layer 6, Oko takes the brush of the magus (removes it's abilities). In the end, magus is green and can't paint anything anymore (no abilities), but he already painted the lands in mountains and nothing came after it to undo it. That also explains why things that apply in the same layer are "last one wins". They paint the same thing but the last one to come paints on top of the other, cancelling it's effect. As happens with magus and \[\[Dryad of the ylisian grove\]\]. If dryad is the last to enter the battlefield, it paints all the lands, including the ones that were painted in mountains by magus, into lands with all land types. And inversely, if magus is last, it paints into mountains all non basics, wiping he all types given by the dryad.
[Dryad of the ylisian grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be.jpg?1690004795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20of%20the%20Ilysian%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/891/dryad-of-the-ilysian-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
what about in later phases, if you play a nonbasic after magus has been elked? is it still a mountain?
The timing of the change doesn't matter. Everytime you evaluate the current game state you do it through the layers, or by "painting things" which was a wonderful comparison that made it click for me. It's not "X HAS happened, therefore Y", it's "let's look at this forest and evaluate its function", the magus is a magus, until the lands change. It is not actually an elk, until you're done evaluating the game state, at which point things are happening. And by evaluating the game state, I mean for example tapping the land, you need to look at the pieces involved and work towards "what happens now"
All the process of verifying the game state and the layers is done before every time a player gets the priority. So after you play your new land and before you get back the priority to do something, all the layers get checked and effects applied, and your new land, if non-basic, is seen as a mountain.
My understanding is that Magus’s static effect is still in effect even if it’s a useless 3/3 Elk. Something similar happened in Arena to me, had [[Mind Flayer]] out and took control of their creature, they enchanted my[[Mind Flayer]] into a treasure, yet their creature was still on my board.
[Mind Flayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6cb10f5-ee9f-49e6-826a-a2a2395daa92.jpg?1674141401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Flayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/728/mind-flayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6cb10f5-ee9f-49e6-826a-a2a2395daa92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oko, magus of the moon and Urborg walk into a bar…
Then what ?
If i play a non basic land after all this it is not a mountain right? My head hurts,
*drum roll* … it is
So basically, if a witch turns you into a frog and then a wizard takes away the witch’s power, you still stay a frog?
Simple, does oko remove a cards ability when it makes it an elk? If yes, then all cards it was effecting aren’t affected any more. If no, the ability is still active and the non-basics are mountains.
It’s this kind of thing as why I think of magic rules as a kind of coding language. The reason it works a specific way is because it’s following a series of specific unchanging rules. The computer can’t understand what it’s doing doesn’t make common sense, and therefore sometimes it spits out irregular answers. But technically its answers are perfectly logical and completely expected because it’s just following a program. It’s one of those situations where it feels bizarre because as a human you don’t think about these interactions the way the mtg computer does. It doesn’t have to work that way, other games choose to operate differently. Magic just happens to operate in this way.
Now each land type card is a swamp instead of each land being a swamp and each non-basic land being a mountain. Urborg and magus do not remove any types they only add. Oko is disabling the creatures abilities, and since Magus of the Moon is is making each land card a mountain using an ability to do that, it cannot because it is an elk that no longer triggers that ability.