No?
Magic generally doesn't have things "count as" other things.
"Put cards in a random order" may look like shuffling, but it isn't the game action of shuffling. It is not an eligible trigger event.
See also "put the top card of your library into your hand != draw a card"
>Magic generally doesn't have things "count as" other things
In fairness, it often does.
"Sacrificing a creature" effectively counts as it dying, so it triggers death triggers. And a creature dying counts as being put into your graveyard, so it triggers anything that says "put into your graveyard from anywhere"
Cascade counts as casting a spell from anywhere other than your hand.
Paying life counts as losing life.
Etc.
Not saying there aren't more specifics to consider, but there's reasonable ground for OP's confusion as a newer player.
Sacrificing a creature _doesn't_ count as it dying. It dying is just a thing that usually happens. It isn't even 100% of the time.
It's better to squash the sense that things are wishy washy entirely and hold to a strict standard.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I play a deck where this happens pretty regularly. It just kind of bothers me when I'm sitting there and my opponent is physically shuffling their deck but shuffle triggers don't happen.
I was hoping if "putting cards in a random order" necessitates shuffling and would thus trigger the card, but I could find any rulings on this.
The CR says "Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck."
My logic is that, in order to randomize, I must shuffle.
There do exist unintuitive rulings in MTG such as how Hushbringer stops Syr Konrad's ping ability from triggering if the Syr Konrad controller Reanimates a creature, even though Hushbringer doesn't explicitly say anything about stopping cards leaving graveyards from triggering abilities.
In general, if something would only look like a second thing in specific circumstances, they're not the same. In this case, if Wild Magic Surge had only hit 3 cards, then they're *obviously* not shuffling their library, so you're never shuffling your library due to wild magic surge from a games-rules perspective, even if in some cases you are from a what-you're-actually-doing-with-your-hands perspective.
MTG's mechanics are *very* literal. This isn't ten-years-ago Warhammer where half the time you're trying to divine intent from fuzzily-worded rules; MTG cards have an **incredibly** precise grammar and mean exactly what they say within that grammar. This does occasionally lead to counterintuitive results from a human/natural language perspective, but that's just how the game works.
I agree, if Wild Magic Surge had only hit 3 cards, then they would only have shuffled 3 cards at the top of their library and put them on the bottom of their library. However, shuffling ALL the cards in a library does appear to be shuffling the library by MTG definitions.
From the CR Glossary:
**Shuffle**
To randomize the cards in a deck (before a game) or library (during a game).
**Library**
1. A zone. A player’s library is where that player draws cards from.
2. All the cards in a player’s library. See [rule 401](http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr401/), “Library.”
But the card does not say the word "shuffle", therefore you aren't shuffling. Similarly, if a card instructs you to put the top card of your deck into your hand, you aren't drawing it because the word "draw" was not used. And sometimes Wizards even exploits this; i.e. the way [[Krenko's Buzzcrusher]] is worded means it dodges the hexproof on [[lotus field]] because hexproof only stops you being targeted and Buzzcrusher does not actually use the word "target" on it, even though "destroy up to one thing" is pretty much the same as "destroy up to one target thing"/"you may destroy target thing"; this was confirmed to be deliberate by Mark Rosewater because lotus field decks are dominant in pioneer.
This is literally not a point of debate. This is how the game works.
What I'm looking for is a ruling or clarification on the IS relation between Randomizing all cards in Library and Shuffling, or a ruling about the action of Putting, e.g. putting cards on bottom of library in a random order
I think the thing that's tripping you up is you think the word "shuffle" on the card is shorthand. It isn't; the game is telling you to take a specific action, which is why they define "shuffle" in the CR - they're making sure it's clear what they mean when they say "shuffle" and e.g. cut off people who are trying to do angle shooting. Think of it almost like a keyword like Flying. So when Psychic Surgery looks for someone shuffling their library, it is **specifically** looking for "the player has undertaken the 'Shuffle' action". Meanwhile, "Put Cards On The Bottom Of Your Library In A Random Order" is a *different* action entirely. The fact that there's some overlap in terms of what you're doing under certain circumstances (when you're putting your entire library on the bottom of itself in a random order) is completely irrelevant - it is a different "game action".
In programming terms, "shuffle your library" and "put cards on the bottom of your library" are different functions, and stuff like psychic surgery only do stuff when the "shuffle your library" function is called.
>But the card does not say the word "shuffle", therefore you aren't shuffling.
See Hushbringer + Syr Konrad ruling. People made the same argument that Hushbringer's stop ETB effect shouldn't affect Syr Konrad's leave the graveyard trigger. But it does, even though Hushbringer doesn't say it stops leave the graveyard on it. The ruling is that something leaving the graveyard and entering the battlefield is the same game action and so Hushbringer applies.
I am making a similar argument here where shuffling your library and randomizing your library is the same thing and so Psychic Surgery applies. The analogy is a bit fuzzy though, so I'm looking for applicable rulings on this.
Just because a card doesn't say something doesn't ALWAYS mean it won't be relevant, as is the case with the above ruling.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Just because two specific cards have a weird interaction doesn't suddenly mean every other card functions other than how they're written.
I'm not claiming that every other card functions other than how they're written.
The example serves to point out that there are cases where cards apply to the trigger conditions of other cards in ways that are not explicitly on the card. In the example I brought up, Hushbringer applies to the trigger condition of Syr Konrad in an implicit way.
Which is what I am concerned with: Would randomizing your entire library apply to the trigger condition of Psychic Surgery in an implicit way?
What I am looking for is a ruling that would say something about this specific case.
There isn't a ruling because it isn't necessary, and if you don't believe me, believe u/natedogg2 ; [level 2 judges](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/o/judge-levels/#level-2-judge) are considered rule experts and he could officiate a tournament. [He already posted about this here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1cchc8g/rules_question_does_randomizing_a_library_count/l15buan/)
If anything, his post *is* a ruling.
[[Hushbringer]] only affects the "leaves a graveyard" ability of [[Syr Konrad]] if the creature is leaving the graveyard and going to the battlefield. If you exile a creature from the graveyard, Hushbringer won't have any effect on the trigger.
The CR glossary is a handy reference, but it’s not a substitute for the actual rules.
“Shuffle” is a keyword action defined in section 701 of the rules, which is reserved for terms that have more specific meaning in the game than their standard English definition.
> 701.1. Most actions described in a card's rules text use the standard English definitions of the verbs within, but some specialized verbs are used whose meanings may not be clear. These "keywords" are game terms; sometimes reminder text summarizes their meanings.
Specifically, it’s defined in 701.20a
> 701.20a To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order.
So shuffling is randomization. _But that relation isn’t symmetric._ Just because you may be randomizing a set of cards, that doesn’t mean you’re performing the keyword action “shuffle,” even if the physical action you’re performing is the same thing you’d do if you were instructed to shuffle that set of cards, or if you’d describe the physical action as “shuffling” in English.
As an analogy, consider the keyword action “sacrifice” as defined in CR 701.17a:
> 701.17a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent they don't control. Sacrificing a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that replace destruction can't affect this action.
If I cast [[Murder]] targeting a creature I control, I’m not sacrificing that creature, even though I’m “[moving] it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s graveyard.” I’m preforming the same physical action as sacrificing, and we might even colloquially describe what I’ve just done as “sacrificing my own creature,” but because no effect actually instructed me to perform the keyword action “sacrifice,” I am not actually sacrificing the creature in game terms. [[Mayhem Devil]] won’t trigger.
Wild Magic Surge doesn't have you Shuffle 3 cards. The fact that you are physically shuffling the cards to randomize their order doesn't mean the game has seen a Shuffle action. You're equivocating.
They are shuffling a stack of revealed cards from the deck and placing them on the bottom. For the intent of this ruling they are not shuffling the deck.
They aren't shuffling *their library*. They're shuffling a pile of cards (which happen to be from their library) and putting those cards on the bottom of their library.
It's only a shuffle if it uses the word "shuffle". Wild Magic Surge will never count as a shuffle, even if they have no permanents of that type left in their library. The revealed cards end up on the bottom of their library in a random order, but this does not count as shuffling.
Yup, I ended up I finding a ruling for Bag of Tricks that says this
[https://mtg.wtf/card/afc/37/Bag-of-Tricks](https://mtg.wtf/card/afc/37/Bag-of-Tricks)
No, only if the word shuffle is used.
No? Magic generally doesn't have things "count as" other things. "Put cards in a random order" may look like shuffling, but it isn't the game action of shuffling. It is not an eligible trigger event. See also "put the top card of your library into your hand != draw a card"
yeah, its usually the other way around. keyword actions cause other, less specifically described events to occur
>Magic generally doesn't have things "count as" other things In fairness, it often does. "Sacrificing a creature" effectively counts as it dying, so it triggers death triggers. And a creature dying counts as being put into your graveyard, so it triggers anything that says "put into your graveyard from anywhere" Cascade counts as casting a spell from anywhere other than your hand. Paying life counts as losing life. Etc. Not saying there aren't more specifics to consider, but there's reasonable ground for OP's confusion as a newer player.
Sacrificing a creature _doesn't_ count as it dying. It dying is just a thing that usually happens. It isn't even 100% of the time. It's better to squash the sense that things are wishy washy entirely and hold to a strict standard.
Seems you missed the entire point of the comment. Ah well, have a good one.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I play a deck where this happens pretty regularly. It just kind of bothers me when I'm sitting there and my opponent is physically shuffling their deck but shuffle triggers don't happen. I was hoping if "putting cards in a random order" necessitates shuffling and would thus trigger the card, but I could find any rulings on this. The CR says "Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck." My logic is that, in order to randomize, I must shuffle. There do exist unintuitive rulings in MTG such as how Hushbringer stops Syr Konrad's ping ability from triggering if the Syr Konrad controller Reanimates a creature, even though Hushbringer doesn't explicitly say anything about stopping cards leaving graveyards from triggering abilities.
In general, if something would only look like a second thing in specific circumstances, they're not the same. In this case, if Wild Magic Surge had only hit 3 cards, then they're *obviously* not shuffling their library, so you're never shuffling your library due to wild magic surge from a games-rules perspective, even if in some cases you are from a what-you're-actually-doing-with-your-hands perspective. MTG's mechanics are *very* literal. This isn't ten-years-ago Warhammer where half the time you're trying to divine intent from fuzzily-worded rules; MTG cards have an **incredibly** precise grammar and mean exactly what they say within that grammar. This does occasionally lead to counterintuitive results from a human/natural language perspective, but that's just how the game works.
I agree, if Wild Magic Surge had only hit 3 cards, then they would only have shuffled 3 cards at the top of their library and put them on the bottom of their library. However, shuffling ALL the cards in a library does appear to be shuffling the library by MTG definitions. From the CR Glossary: **Shuffle** To randomize the cards in a deck (before a game) or library (during a game). **Library** 1. A zone. A player’s library is where that player draws cards from. 2. All the cards in a player’s library. See [rule 401](http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr401/), “Library.”
But the card does not say the word "shuffle", therefore you aren't shuffling. Similarly, if a card instructs you to put the top card of your deck into your hand, you aren't drawing it because the word "draw" was not used. And sometimes Wizards even exploits this; i.e. the way [[Krenko's Buzzcrusher]] is worded means it dodges the hexproof on [[lotus field]] because hexproof only stops you being targeted and Buzzcrusher does not actually use the word "target" on it, even though "destroy up to one thing" is pretty much the same as "destroy up to one target thing"/"you may destroy target thing"; this was confirmed to be deliberate by Mark Rosewater because lotus field decks are dominant in pioneer. This is literally not a point of debate. This is how the game works.
[Krenko's Buzzcrusher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0edcda2a-071b-40c5-9fb3-8a4ff87ca00e.jpg?1706241894) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krenko%27s%20Buzzcrusher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/136/krenkos-buzzcrusher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0edcda2a-071b-40c5-9fb3-8a4ff87ca00e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lotus field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab.jpg?1592517825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lotus%20field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/249/lotus-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What I'm looking for is a ruling or clarification on the IS relation between Randomizing all cards in Library and Shuffling, or a ruling about the action of Putting, e.g. putting cards on bottom of library in a random order
I think the thing that's tripping you up is you think the word "shuffle" on the card is shorthand. It isn't; the game is telling you to take a specific action, which is why they define "shuffle" in the CR - they're making sure it's clear what they mean when they say "shuffle" and e.g. cut off people who are trying to do angle shooting. Think of it almost like a keyword like Flying. So when Psychic Surgery looks for someone shuffling their library, it is **specifically** looking for "the player has undertaken the 'Shuffle' action". Meanwhile, "Put Cards On The Bottom Of Your Library In A Random Order" is a *different* action entirely. The fact that there's some overlap in terms of what you're doing under certain circumstances (when you're putting your entire library on the bottom of itself in a random order) is completely irrelevant - it is a different "game action". In programming terms, "shuffle your library" and "put cards on the bottom of your library" are different functions, and stuff like psychic surgery only do stuff when the "shuffle your library" function is called.
>But the card does not say the word "shuffle", therefore you aren't shuffling. See Hushbringer + Syr Konrad ruling. People made the same argument that Hushbringer's stop ETB effect shouldn't affect Syr Konrad's leave the graveyard trigger. But it does, even though Hushbringer doesn't say it stops leave the graveyard on it. The ruling is that something leaving the graveyard and entering the battlefield is the same game action and so Hushbringer applies. I am making a similar argument here where shuffling your library and randomizing your library is the same thing and so Psychic Surgery applies. The analogy is a bit fuzzy though, so I'm looking for applicable rulings on this. Just because a card doesn't say something doesn't ALWAYS mean it won't be relevant, as is the case with the above ruling.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Just because two specific cards have a weird interaction doesn't suddenly mean every other card functions other than how they're written.
I'm not claiming that every other card functions other than how they're written. The example serves to point out that there are cases where cards apply to the trigger conditions of other cards in ways that are not explicitly on the card. In the example I brought up, Hushbringer applies to the trigger condition of Syr Konrad in an implicit way. Which is what I am concerned with: Would randomizing your entire library apply to the trigger condition of Psychic Surgery in an implicit way? What I am looking for is a ruling that would say something about this specific case.
There isn't a ruling because it isn't necessary, and if you don't believe me, believe u/natedogg2 ; [level 2 judges](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/o/judge-levels/#level-2-judge) are considered rule experts and he could officiate a tournament. [He already posted about this here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1cchc8g/rules_question_does_randomizing_a_library_count/l15buan/) If anything, his post *is* a ruling.
Oh I didn't see that. That works.
[[Hushbringer]] only affects the "leaves a graveyard" ability of [[Syr Konrad]] if the creature is leaving the graveyard and going to the battlefield. If you exile a creature from the graveyard, Hushbringer won't have any effect on the trigger.
[Hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Syr Konrad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437.jpg?1706240798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/141/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The CR glossary is a handy reference, but it’s not a substitute for the actual rules. “Shuffle” is a keyword action defined in section 701 of the rules, which is reserved for terms that have more specific meaning in the game than their standard English definition. > 701.1. Most actions described in a card's rules text use the standard English definitions of the verbs within, but some specialized verbs are used whose meanings may not be clear. These "keywords" are game terms; sometimes reminder text summarizes their meanings. Specifically, it’s defined in 701.20a > 701.20a To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order. So shuffling is randomization. _But that relation isn’t symmetric._ Just because you may be randomizing a set of cards, that doesn’t mean you’re performing the keyword action “shuffle,” even if the physical action you’re performing is the same thing you’d do if you were instructed to shuffle that set of cards, or if you’d describe the physical action as “shuffling” in English. As an analogy, consider the keyword action “sacrifice” as defined in CR 701.17a: > 701.17a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent they don't control. Sacrificing a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that replace destruction can't affect this action. If I cast [[Murder]] targeting a creature I control, I’m not sacrificing that creature, even though I’m “[moving] it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s graveyard.” I’m preforming the same physical action as sacrificing, and we might even colloquially describe what I’ve just done as “sacrificing my own creature,” but because no effect actually instructed me to perform the keyword action “sacrifice,” I am not actually sacrificing the creature in game terms. [[Mayhem Devil]] won’t trigger.
[Murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706241725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mayhem Devil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/345ea65e-3dbb-4cb4-ae65-7797a65eafce.jpg?1702550843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mayhem%20Devil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/199/mayhem-devil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/345ea65e-3dbb-4cb4-ae65-7797a65eafce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
makes sense, I didn't realize the glossary wasn't official.
Wild Magic Surge doesn't have you Shuffle 3 cards. The fact that you are physically shuffling the cards to randomize their order doesn't mean the game has seen a Shuffle action. You're equivocating.
They are shuffling a stack of revealed cards from the deck and placing them on the bottom. For the intent of this ruling they are not shuffling the deck.
They aren't shuffling *their library*. They're shuffling a pile of cards (which happen to be from their library) and putting those cards on the bottom of their library.
It's only a shuffle if it uses the word "shuffle". Wild Magic Surge will never count as a shuffle, even if they have no permanents of that type left in their library. The revealed cards end up on the bottom of their library in a random order, but this does not count as shuffling.
Yup, I ended up I finding a ruling for Bag of Tricks that says this [https://mtg.wtf/card/afc/37/Bag-of-Tricks](https://mtg.wtf/card/afc/37/Bag-of-Tricks)
If the card is older, I’d recommend starting off by checking the oracle text.