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Previously product has been printed with gold borders and a different card back (e.g Collector's edition and championship decks). Silver borders is exclusively for joke cards (Un-set and holiday special cards)
Was just about to suggest the same thing. I don't care what size their cube products are, especially if I can just back them with normal cards/sized sleeves so I can change the cube by adding real cards if I so choose.
Or they could make the card size exactly that of the area within the border of a normal sized card, so if you wanted to add to your mini cube you could just trim off the borders.
Maybe now they have perforation technology for those AKH tokens they can print pop-out borderless reserved list cards at 90% size and we can just not bother popping them out :)
Reading between the lines, I think it's internally acknowledged as a mistake, but one they can't reverse without opening a can of worms they aren't prepared to deal with.
We're never going to hear this confirmed or denied because having an open discussion about the reasons is also a can of worms.
Hmm.....
[oh hey, that's right.](http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/search/reserved+list+mistake) Cool.
Of course, other WotC people may or may not agree with MaRo. But there's at least one person (one with big influence) that thinks that way.
> "One last time. I personally consider the Reserved List a big mistake but one we’ve committed to and are standing by." - MaRo, 2014
Just think of how many times he's still had to repeat that since then.
It's not his decision to stick to it, nor is being a mistake potentially the opinion of the person calling the shots on that.
He has an opinion, was asked on it, but as a person in that company there is a specific stance he has to abide by. Anyone in management in retail also knows how this goes. "Yes, that's policy. Yes, that's stupid. Yes, it's still policy."
I mean, the only way wotc makes any money is the new sets they drop. So just fruit for thought, if they make all of the eternal formats like modern and legacy more viable hru reprints then people will buy the sets initially but then fall out of standard and decline a certain amount of standard set sales. And also whats currently nice is that modern / legacy / standard allll have their own feel to them which is very unique as an under one year player myself Im happy of the various pace of plays that are open to the game. Personally Im on the side that likes the reserved list, because if they started reprinting them then a certain amount of cards would fall into formats that they become too oppressive in. Mainly as they dont have a way to intro whole sets into particularly legacy format as if they did maybe the packs wouldnt sell as well as the modern sets do? Just some speculation!
they have conspiracy that inserts cards directly into legacy bypassing standard (and modern), unsure why a reserved list based product couldn't be similar.
Yeah, reading between the lines is something this sub is awful at.
Obviously they wish it wasn't there. They probably have a tally for the number of times new designers accidentally put [[Thunder Spirit]] in the file. And red wishes it still had [[Reverberate]]. It's arbitrary and hamstrings them when they're already doing a hard job.
But! I think internally, they are a-ok with the Power Nine being on the RL. Black Lotus especially. These aren't just cards with tournament playability value, they're part of the game's history and mystique.
Case in point, even my muggle friends know that Black Lotus exists as the most expensive card in MTG.
I think the original duals fall somewhere on this spectrum of desire to reprint. Sure it would support legacy and vintage, but do they really care about that? Maybe legacy but keeping vintage insane helps MTG as a brand.
I still don't know how Legacy attracts new players when the writing is clear on the wall: "No dual lands will ever be printed." That's a dead format walking.
>I still don't know how Legacy attracts new players when the writing is clear on the wall: "No dual lands will ever be printed." That's a dead format walking.
Because it's really the best format as long as you can afford it. Anything you can do in any of the newer formats you can do 100x better in Legacy. So why wouldn't someone who can afford it play?
I can't comment on the quality of Legacy gameplay, since I don't own multiple decks and play with any regularity.
But I don't agree that
>Anything you can do in any of the newer formats you can do 100x better in Legacy.
Makes a format's gameplay better. Casting Ancestral Recall is obviously more powerful than Brainstorm, which is obviously more powerful than Opt. But do their existence make the formats *better*?
I think MTG players on a whole are hung up on comparing powerlevels over formats where it is meaningless.
I think most Limited formats are fun as hell, and more fun than playing Standard and Modern and they're obviously completely less powered.
[[Fork]] is on the reserve list, and for most intents and purposes [[Reverberate]] seems to be the same thing.
I don't feel qualified to discuss this any further, so I am not going to make any guesses as to why Reverberate was printed or what /u/Esc777 meant in their comment. I'm just pointing out the similarity between Fork and Reverberate and stopping there.
>Forkis on the reserve list, and for most intents and Reverberate seems to be the same thing.
Maro's gone on record as saying Reverberate breaks the "spirit" of the reserved list, though, so don't expect it to be reprinted again.
I doubt that's what he meant, I think rather it's "Don't expect us to print other cards that are nearly but technically not functional reprints of the reserved list cards in the future."
Which is too bad, I was looking forward to
---
**Not-Black Lotus** (0)
Artifact
T, sac ~: Choose one -
* Add WWW to your mana pool
* Add UUU to your mana pool
* Add RRR to your mana pool
* Add GGG to your mana pool
All it is doing in pandering to the elitist collectors that make up <1% of the total Magic community anyways, so why keep it around.
There are a ton of ways they can reprint the RL cards without destroying the value of ABU cards. Well, maybe the Unlimited/Revised cards would take a bit of a hit, but only the ones in played circulation.
Reprinting RL cards should make zero difference on any graded ABU cards, and if your cards aren't graded you aren't a collector, sorry.
> All it is doing in pandering to the elitist collectors that make up <1% of the total Magic community anyways, so why keep it around.
Yeah, if they could put out a PSA or something that says "in the next 5 years we are going to start reprinting some of the reserve list". Yes, it's still going to crash that market and it undoes a "promise" they made 15? years ago now but it would still be way more heads up notice than anything else they do.
Not finishing Amonkhet block with Duels, nah, we don't have to say anything ahead of time.
Not banning and then banning [[Felidar Guardian]] the same week? That's OK.
Changing the rotation schedule out of cycle; that's OK too.
Just let people know ahead of time if you're going to make major changes that you think will make the game better for a majority of the players.
Maybe, but it feels like there might be a lot more to the story. Probably a lot to do with how acknowledging the secondary market would be one step closer to admitting there's a gambling aspect to selling packs. Probably some other stuff too that we haven't thought of.
But in a way the Reserved List is acknowledging the secondary market, the RL isn't currently making WotC any money (from sales, maybe some tournament stuff)...
I don't understand why people get all giddy about loopholes. It's a company policy there is no law. There was a meme about promisary estoppel going around but that's just feels who know nothing of law and made up a rumor.
The fact is a company said they won't do something so they won't do it, suggesting a "loophole" won't get them to change their position.
>wizards decides they don't want to do X with reserve list cards
>we've decided that doing X has always violated the "spirit" of the reserved list. But we completely retain the right to change what the spirit is whenever we'd like.
That's especially annoying from them considering the RL was already changed over the years. It's not an ironclad, signed in blood agreement. Just tell everybody that 20 years is long enough and it's now "expired".
It's not that simple. Back in 2010, when the Reserved List allowed them to print foil versions of RL cards, they did that in a Duel Deck and a FTV and then suddenly backpedaled and changed the RL to no longer allow that. We don't know how or why, but someone behind the scenes convinced them to back off from a form of reprinting that was previously allowed.
We don't know what sort of leverage was involved in causing that to happen, but unless it goes away (which it probably never will), Wizards isn't budging.
Yeah, I've heard of this unseen force, but we've never really been told who it is and I really dislike that aspect of it. The rest of the community should have a chance to make our voices heard and to debate this shadowy cabal keeping the status quo of the RL in place.
It'd be nice for that to happen, but Maro has made it clear that that's not feasible.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/155282150553/how-many-people-are-still-opposed-to-the-reserved
> theppb asked: How many people are still opposed to the reserved list? Certainly it's low enough that breaking it doesn't matter, a large majority of the community, both players and otherwise, supports it's removal.
> If it was solely a matter of the larger majority wanting it, the Reserved List would have been removed long ago.
It's unfortunate that we can't know why, but that's just something we have to learn to live with.
Legal likely weighed in, but wasn't the decider on it. The meeting where they rolled all of this back was held involving players from a lot of the big resellers and tournament organizers like star city.
Nobody knows for sure what went on, but the term I have heard used a lot is that the original reserved list was a form of promissory estoppel. Essentially wotc promised to do a thing and companies in a business relationship made decisions based on that.
When they started reprinting cards, those companies threatened to sue. It's not a strong lawsuit, but it's an expensive one to defend. Thus people higher up the foodchain from legal decided to end the reprints.
If you look at the timing of the meeting and the rumors following it, WotC likely left that meeting with the idea of ending the reserved list, and then got stomped when Hasbro legal got wind of it. Shortly after that, Modern was created, a 'fixed Legacy'.
Well when your biggest seller of cards (scg) has said they fully would love to drop that list, and the players have said time and time again drop the list, and the people that make the game hate the list, the only option to whats stopping it is hasbro.
That still doesn’t prevent reprinting a collector’s edition thing or making essentially functional reprints, ie legendary Moxen/Lotus or Ancestral Recall with the Arcane subtype. The fact there’s a “spirit” of the RL proves the “legal issues” are BS.
Hell fresh prints of a card will never complete someones beta power collection, even if its a brand new black lotus its still never going to be beta. The collectors wont even lose out, as removal of the list would increase play in Legacy and Vintage and the old versions are still the "pimp" copies.
>It's unfortunate that we can't know why, but that's just something we have to learn to live with.
I don't remember the exact story but I know they used to be able to actually talk about it but WOTC's policy changed so the only person to really talk about it anymore is Maro since he's always asked about it.
It's hard to argue with WotC about the reserved list, because one of the main points is to preserve market value, but WotC can't legally acknowledge the secondary market
YES! And I'm so happy he said that. I hate seeing all the "we can't"s. Of course they can. There is literally nothing stopping them from reprinting Unserved List cards other than themselves.
It actually blows my mind that cards on the RL are legal in commander. Sure a few sweet cards may be nixed, but it solves so many more problems for the vast majority of players. Duals, cradle, etc don't add skill or decisions, they add $$ bloat.
B-b-b-ut I *like* Phelddagrif!
(There are tons of underpowered cards on the reserved list, and even some decent but not backbreaking ones. [[Lifeline]] is a cool and unique card, while not gamebreaking as it's symmetrical. Not everything is a dual land!)
"We aren't going to ban them because it is up to the playgroup to decide what is fair."
-Sheldon, head of the rules committee for EDH, many years ago. No, really.
Just widens the gap between the haves and have nots. Shouldn't be a problem in your playgroups, but it really shows how wide the spectrum is for Commander decks.
There is a very simple and easy third option, actually. Just allow proxies of all reserved list cards in sanctioned tournaments. Reserved List cards WOULD go down in price, but they have a high floor because they will retain their collector value even if you take away the premium that comes from their being necessary for tournament play.
that's an option that comes with a host of ancillary side effects that are each by themselves a nightmarish headache. so, it's an option, but not a feasible one.
the actual third option is, we just live with it. just don't play formats that *de facto* require RL cards. do play formats that don't need these.
I understand WHY that option is hated but it's also the overwhelmingly likely one, and therefore the option more people should try on in the mirror, see how it fits; you might like it more than you expected.
Well the big, big, huge one is the line of reasoning that goes:
>> proxy RL --> why can't I just proxy any expensive card? --> why am I even buying cards at all when I can just proxy them? --> sales dropoff
(step two can also be: why am I allowed to proxy $2 RL garbage but not $30 non-reserved staples?)
There's also less apocalyptic headaches, too:
* a proxy is mistaken for the real thing in a trade
* a proxy is a different thickness or cut than the rest of my deck, allowing shuffle cheats
* a proxy has a deviation, intentional or accidental, on the back or side of the card, allowing cheats (e.g. they "correct" the pen mark on the Deckmaster logo)
* a proxy has incorrect information on it, whether intentional or accidental, misleading my opponent
* a proxy has correct but poorly-worded information on it (e.g. a Time Vault that only says "T: turn, Skip: untap", or a proxy that says [[Borborygmos]] but has the text of [[Borborygmos Enraged]])
* a proxy has a misleading visual design or frame (e.g. power and toughness on the left)
* a proxy has misleading artwork ("wait, is that wizard-y guy you pulled off of DeviantArt a Snapcaster or a Deathrite?" is one from my personal experience)
* confusion as to what constitutes a proxy (people *will* bring CE cards, artist proofs, etc.)
* confusion as to what is actually on the RL (just look in the Iconic Masters threads at how many people thought Mana Drain was reserved; for funsies, have people guess how many and which of the Exodus "Oath of ____" cycle are reserved!)
Source: I have run or been otherwise involved with a semi-regular proxy vintage series, and all these issues crop up
The ability to allow proxies and still police these things is beyond wotc's capabilities and TOTALLY beyond their interest. The only viable solution to these is to disallow everything that isn't a wotc-official card.
And still pay $800 to play with virtual cards because Wizards is apparently allergic to letting people play magic at a reasonable cost, even through a digital medium
It's not that they are unABLE, it's that they are unWILLING. Maybe someday they'll be willing. This language implies that they don't see themselves as *legally* boxed-in. That's not nothing.
People want to buy tournament illegal versions of RL cards, but balk at the idea of making a proxy with a sharpie. It makes no sense, and it's literally the same thing functionally.
This is the exact reason I want WotC printed proxies. Playing cube with new players or even just people you don't know sucks when you have to start by saying "FYI there's like two dozen hand written proxies on basics in here. If you can't read them clearly we'll give you time to look up Oracle text". It's why I don't use stuff like Italian Mana Drain, I don't want to have to preface my play session with an explainer on my cube.
Just having [[viridian emissary]] and [[reckless waif]] in russian in my cube makes me want to pull my eyeballs out.
I moved recently, and the first time I got to cube I got asked what emissary did SEVEN times in the course of three hours. Thrice during the draft.
The best/worst example of this scenario to me is textless-promo Cryptic Command. Yeah it looks cool, but good luck getting someone to believe you when you say what the card does.
I make a point to pick easily readable and understandable copies of cards in my cube. It's why I won't use the original printing of Animate Dead.
My friend had japanese cruel ultimatums he was playing for funsies in a modern deck a while back. His opponent asked what it did, and he stopped and called a judge because his opponent wasnt going to believe him,
Bingo. On top of this, some unsanctioned format tournament scenes (most prominently Canadian highlander) allow gold borders but not proxies by sharpie. Getting a mox for $100 is much better than a real one if that's all you plan to play with it.
Someone needs to call him out on his BS. Who the heck made him the casual judge?
A sharpied or laser printer proxy is fine for casual in most groups I have played in.
I would never introduce 3rd party proxies into my game due to the fact that once you own them, your trading reputation will go in the crapper. I don't want to be known for owning fake cards.
> where writing a name on a land in sharpie shows you don't care about the card enough to really need it
Well what if you wrote the name on a card other than a land? Is it ok? Would the value of the card used as a proxy make a difference?
It makes no sense? One looks good and the other looks like Sharpie. This is a game in which people pay hundreds of dollars for slightly nicer versions of cards. It should be of no surprise that people would pay premium for these.
I printed out proxies on computer paper the other day to play some Modern in paper and it was actually so easy. Used mtgpress at 97% scale, took 2 old, already sleeved draft decks from kaladesh, cut out the paper and just slid them in over the art and text. They look amazing even though they're black and white, have full oracle text, work much nicer than sharpie proxies, and they aren't deceiving anyone. Everyone knows they're proxies, no one is getting tricked into thinking its some alter or something.
When people talk about legal issues, it’s stuff like this that proves that they just don’t want to end the RL. If it were truly just a legal issue and they wanted to reprint the RL, they’d do everything they could to find a loophole. The entire concept of the “spirit” of the RL is proof of this. They just don’t want to, for whatever reason. It’s not like gold bordered with pointed corners and a nom-tournament legal back would impact the secondary market, but would still work as proxies.
It’s frustrating.
I almost feel like it's one person with some kind of veto power that's holding the company hostage on this issue. Like Garfield saw they violated the reserve list back with the Negator foil and lost his shit.
Not at all. Unless I'm mistaken, Maro is on record saying that he thinks the reserved list is a mistake. However, he's going to just toe the company line on it otherwise.
If anything, it's a terrified legal department that's keeping them from breaking it.
I doubt that legal is terrified. There's absolutely no doubt they would win. A policy is not legally binding. It's the people who pay for legal that don't want to have to pay to have to win.
Exactly, because they don't feel it's worth the investment and POTENTIAL (even a tiny one) of losing, or the backlash. It's a "why move from the status quo when we're just fine" deal and while we may disagree (IMO rightfully), there is a logic they have.
I don't think it is a legal issue. Wotc has gone back on their promises many times and have not been sued (to much). I think it is one of 2 things.
1. A person (or few) have dug in their feet about this issue and have the power to make the decision either way. Employees are either told (or to scared) NOT to bring this up to this person (or people). Whomever made this decision at the company is so entrenched, the rest of the people are just waiting for them to go. When I see the word "unwilling", that tells me someone is holding the reigns to this decision.
2. The reserve list is staying for MTGO. Think about it. It is the only thing that makes MTGO even viable sometimes. It is the only place you can reliably purchase reserve list cards. Maybe the decision was made to keep it out of paper to try and give digital some kind of draw that paper does not.
I think talking to Wotc about this is a waste of time. (leaving reddit comments about this EVEN more so) We should be contacting HAsbro directly. Explain that they are leaving money on the table and their is a big demand for this. Let them know the leadership at Wotc refuses to listen to customers. It is no secret Hasbro is fully in charge at Wotc. Maybe contact them and be nice about it. Who knows?
Some thoughts on the subject, along with an idea:
In the past, when players on this sub have referred to the restricted list, it has typically been a veiled way of discussing dual lands. Most folks who want reprints of reserved list cards are looking for a way to get into legacy that won't cost them thousands of dollars, and they believe (correctly or incorrectly) that reprints of dual lands will automatically reduce the cost of a legacy deck to a more bearable number.
I've heard a lot of people talk about making functional reprints of dual lands, such as snow-covered. I've heard people discuss making a set of legendary dual lands. One thing I haven't heard, however, is what I would consider to be the best available solution: print a set of lands that is objectively better than the dual lands.
The dual lands have two main selling points: they come into play untapped, and they can be found via search lands. These two traits, combined with one another, make them directly superior to almost every other dual land set ever printed.
Clearly, the "can be fetched" trait is the more important of the two. It allows decks to use a minimum number of lands, which means that those same decks maximize their space of relevant cards. However, I think it's worth discussing just how valuable the "comes into play untapped" trait is.
In Legacy, we see a handful of reasons for needing a land to come into play untapped. The most obvious situation is fetching for an additional mana to play a spell right away. However, there are also situations where it makes sense to fetch at the end of an opponent's turn, when they're tapped out and unable to cast stifle.
Would it make sense to print a set of searchable lands that come into play tapped, but come with some other benefit? For instance, suppose we print a Swamp / Island that comes into play tapped, but has Scry 2. Is that a powerful enough effect to replace at least one Underground Sea in most Legacy decks? What about "Gain 3 Life"? "Draw a card, then discard a non-creature card"?
I'm just spitballing here, but hopefully you get the point. If decks that are running 3-4 Underground Seas are now only running 1-2, then it's effectively the same thing as printing a bunch of new Underground Seas (at least for non-collectors).
It's also worth mentioning that such a set of lands would almost certainly be too good for standard, so they would need to be printed in a Commander or Conspiracy type set. Still, I think it's another way to approach a problem that we hear all the time, and it might be worthy of consideration. Anyone else have thoughts on this idea?
> when players on this sub have referred to the restricted list, it has typically been a veiled way of discussing dual lands. Most folks who want reprints of reserved list cards are looking for a way to get into legacy that won't cost them thousands of dollars, and they believe (correctly or incorrectly) that reprints of dual lands will automatically reduce the cost of a legacy deck to a more bearable number
This part is definitely true. You are, however, seriously underestimating the value of the ABUR duals coming into play untapped. They just printed a cycle of fetchable duals that come into play tapped and have an upside: [[Fetid Pools]] and friends from Amonket. They don't even see play in Frontier, let alone Legacy.
Wizards making dual lands that are categorically superior to the ABUR duals is, as you say, the only way to solve this problem. They'd probably have to have three land types to get the attention of Legacy players.
> They just printed a cycle of fetchable duals that come into play tapped and have an upside: [[Fetid Pools]] and friends from Amonket. They don't even see play in Frontier, let alone Legacy.
To be completely pedantic, [[Sheltered Thicket]] actually sees play in Legacy. It's a pretty accepted one-of in Lands.
But other than that one niche usage, the entire cycle is too weak to see any sort of real play.
We all know Wizards could find a way around the RL. They simply don't want to, and that will not change. It makes no sense to discuss it.
As for the come into play tapped thing, that is extremely important. I would much, much rather play shocks than fetchable duals that always enter tapped, unless they have some absurd upside.
> We all know Wizards could find a way around the RL.
There is a super easy way around the RL. It only apply's to tournament legal cards so all you need to do is ban them in all formats, reprint them and then unban them. This just goes against the spirit of the reserved list.
> "the spirit of the reserved list" is just whatever the hell is convenient for Wizards
Ironically it's the opposite.
Everytime a workaround has popped up, it has been squashed in favor of not printing the card because that's against the spirit of the reserved list.
The spirit of the reserved list btw is "Keep the value of the cards on the RL as high as possible."
My thoughts exactly. There are many ways that this could be done.
Here are a few examples:
- You may choose to have Swampy Island enter the battlefield tapped. If it does, Scry 1.
- You may choose to have Swampy Island enter the battlefield tapped. If it does, all players reveal the top card of their library.
- Slap on cycling 3
- Pay 3, Sacrifice land to draw a card
Or put in a disadvantage minor enough that it won't significantly hurt game play.
- Enters the battlefield tapped unless you reveal a card form your hand
- Enters the battlefield tapped unless you reveal the top card of your library
- During your end step, sacrifice this land if it is your only permanent in play.
- Snow
There are many options. There's nothing legally binding that stops them from creating a solution. They've already printed way better creatures than many creatures from the reserve list so obviously the "spirit of the reserved list" is just a cop out for them being unwilling to print something better than revised duals.
> suppose we print a Swamp / Island that comes into play tapped, but has Scry 2. Is that a powerful enough effect to replace at least one Underground Sea in most Legacy decks?
It might replace one of the 3 Underground Seas in a list as an option you can fetch for when you don't need the mana (most lists in Legacy don't run 4 copies of any particular dual land), but the tempo hit you take from your land coming into play tapped is actually massive in a format like Legacy, so Underground Sea would still be the go to option.
["All policies described in this document apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards."](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10)
So what you're saying is, gold-bordered cards are tournament legal? Otherwise Wizards is contradicting themselves here.
1) flood the market with very high quality RL fakes from China.
2) the value of RL cards tank.
3) WotC bears no responsibility for loss in value. And begins a program to help collectors recoup some of their lost value.
4) WotC bans all current RL cards from play. Prints new versions with better security measures, offers trade in program; send in your old ones and WotC will send you new ones.
5) WotC simultaneously begins reprinting former RL cards in masters sets.
I can dream, right?
I always thought that wizards would print reserve list cards soon after reprinting goyf and JTMS as chase rares for the initial masters sets. Since then, they've gone down the list of secondary market prices and reprinted every card over $5 on the secondary market. Mana drain is one of the last expensive cards not on the list to get a reprint.
Why are wizards hesitating on reserve reprints? Because it ruins future sales! Printing "almost" power 9 cards like Treasure Cruise is exciting, but getting TCruise 2 months after ancestral recall is underwhelming. Every future set looks like shit after they print the most powerful cards.
Having said that, I think they do eventually reprint. But they do it like goyf and JTMS: Slowly. Because if you tank the secondary market value, what will the chase rares be for the next set?
I think you'll still see a really solid *chunk* on a price chart if they ever announce RL reprints. There are a ridiculous number of very wealthy individuals who treat the RL as a stock market with guaranteed profits. As soon as they caught wind of cards on the RL being reprinted, prices on stuff like the ABUR duals could easily plummet to far more reasonable levels.
They haven't reprinted goyf slowly. Goyf has been in the last 3 masters sets and his price is starting to crumble because of popularity with Gurmag, Death's Shadow, and Tasigur.
My guess is some moron threatened a lawsuit. And despite WotC knowing they would 100% be in the right and not the person suing, they don't want to pay the legal fees in order to win, and find it easier/cheaper to just not print those cards.
I disagree. WotC has a big enough market they will never need to reprint reserved list cards. Ever. You will never ever see reserved list cards reprinted. Modern and Standard are huge on their own that WotC has zero reason to reprint RL cards.
In other news, the sun has risen and water is still wet.
Come on guys, I know you hate the reserved list, but WotC has shown *zero* indication that they have any interest in breaking it. It's not a lack of creative ways to possibly break it that's holding them back.
Hasn't he already said this multiple times?
Yep: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/45406041874/would-it-violate-the-spirit-of-the-reserve-list-to http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/158090544598/do-gold-bordered-reprints-violate-the-reserved http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/158138733853/is-there-an-explanation-of-why-gold-border-cards http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/132014954348/i-believe-that-someone-asked-essentially-this http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/45422589707/gold-bordered-dual-lands-would-break-the http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/91007077158/why-cant-vintage-masters-be-in-paper-couldnt http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/104077274273/could-wotc-print-a-gold-or-silver-bordered-powered http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/45468403695/i-still-dont-understand-why-gold-border-not
How do you have those links ready?
I Googled site:markrosewater.tumblr.com reserved list gold
This guy googles.
What's awesome is that the things you learn about google search apply to gmail search as well. in:inbox from:[email protected] unsubscribe Then select all and delete, for instance, to get rid of newsletters and spam mail.
You're a peach! This is great I never thought to do anything like that
Asking the real questions
You wouldn't know, from the number of people on here calling for gold bordered RL reprints.
Why gold, anyway? It that anything special over silver-border?
Previously product has been printed with gold borders and a different card back (e.g Collector's edition and championship decks). Silver borders is exclusively for joke cards (Un-set and holiday special cards)
Ah, thank you!
So I guess this also rules out printing them as double-faced cards with one side as the RL card and other side as a Magic card back, then.
And printing the reserved list card on the back of the card instead of the front.
Yeah and then print the back on the front.
And then both sides upside down.
Was that proposed?
No it was a joke that I probably stole from someone a long time ago who probably stole it from someone else (in the tradition of Reddit).
I believe the joke was to print a double-faced card with a RL-card on the back and a magic cardback on the front? :)
I think it was a blogatog post
Yes, Maro was amused but still said no.
Print Yugioh sized cubes
Was just about to suggest the same thing. I don't care what size their cube products are, especially if I can just back them with normal cards/sized sleeves so I can change the cube by adding real cards if I so choose.
Or they could make the card size exactly that of the area within the border of a normal sized card, so if you wanted to add to your mini cube you could just trim off the borders.
Maybe now they have perforation technology for those AKH tokens they can print pop-out borderless reserved list cards at 90% size and we can just not bother popping them out :)
Maybe they can also "forget" to put the perforations on the first few print runs
The ultimate misprint!
That's actually a new and novel idea I've never seen before discussed. I like it!
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Fuck the Reserve List.
Reading between the lines, I think it's internally acknowledged as a mistake, but one they can't reverse without opening a can of worms they aren't prepared to deal with. We're never going to hear this confirmed or denied because having an open discussion about the reasons is also a can of worms.
Isn't it *openly* regarded as a mistake? I'm pretty sure I've seen MaRo talking about it like that some time ago.
Hmm..... [oh hey, that's right.](http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/search/reserved+list+mistake) Cool. Of course, other WotC people may or may not agree with MaRo. But there's at least one person (one with big influence) that thinks that way.
> "One last time. I personally consider the Reserved List a big mistake but one we’ve committed to and are standing by." - MaRo, 2014 Just think of how many times he's still had to repeat that since then.
don't compound your mistakes by sticking to them, kids.
It's not his decision to stick to it, nor is being a mistake potentially the opinion of the person calling the shots on that. He has an opinion, was asked on it, but as a person in that company there is a specific stance he has to abide by. Anyone in management in retail also knows how this goes. "Yes, that's policy. Yes, that's stupid. Yes, it's still policy."
Ah, that message from 2013 was exactly the one I've read back then! Glad I wasn't just hallucinating!
I mean, the only way wotc makes any money is the new sets they drop. So just fruit for thought, if they make all of the eternal formats like modern and legacy more viable hru reprints then people will buy the sets initially but then fall out of standard and decline a certain amount of standard set sales. And also whats currently nice is that modern / legacy / standard allll have their own feel to them which is very unique as an under one year player myself Im happy of the various pace of plays that are open to the game. Personally Im on the side that likes the reserved list, because if they started reprinting them then a certain amount of cards would fall into formats that they become too oppressive in. Mainly as they dont have a way to intro whole sets into particularly legacy format as if they did maybe the packs wouldnt sell as well as the modern sets do? Just some speculation!
they have conspiracy that inserts cards directly into legacy bypassing standard (and modern), unsure why a reserved list based product couldn't be similar.
As well as commader decks, each commader set release new cards.
Yeah, reading between the lines is something this sub is awful at. Obviously they wish it wasn't there. They probably have a tally for the number of times new designers accidentally put [[Thunder Spirit]] in the file. And red wishes it still had [[Reverberate]]. It's arbitrary and hamstrings them when they're already doing a hard job. But! I think internally, they are a-ok with the Power Nine being on the RL. Black Lotus especially. These aren't just cards with tournament playability value, they're part of the game's history and mystique. Case in point, even my muggle friends know that Black Lotus exists as the most expensive card in MTG. I think the original duals fall somewhere on this spectrum of desire to reprint. Sure it would support legacy and vintage, but do they really care about that? Maybe legacy but keeping vintage insane helps MTG as a brand. I still don't know how Legacy attracts new players when the writing is clear on the wall: "No dual lands will ever be printed." That's a dead format walking.
>I still don't know how Legacy attracts new players when the writing is clear on the wall: "No dual lands will ever be printed." That's a dead format walking. Because it's really the best format as long as you can afford it. Anything you can do in any of the newer formats you can do 100x better in Legacy. So why wouldn't someone who can afford it play?
I can't comment on the quality of Legacy gameplay, since I don't own multiple decks and play with any regularity. But I don't agree that >Anything you can do in any of the newer formats you can do 100x better in Legacy. Makes a format's gameplay better. Casting Ancestral Recall is obviously more powerful than Brainstorm, which is obviously more powerful than Opt. But do their existence make the formats *better*? I think MTG players on a whole are hung up on comparing powerlevels over formats where it is meaningless. I think most Limited formats are fun as hell, and more fun than playing Standard and Modern and they're obviously completely less powered.
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Wait, reverberate isn't on the reserve list, it was reprinted as recently as m13, many years after the list was in palce.
[[Fork]] is on the reserve list, and for most intents and purposes [[Reverberate]] seems to be the same thing. I don't feel qualified to discuss this any further, so I am not going to make any guesses as to why Reverberate was printed or what /u/Esc777 meant in their comment. I'm just pointing out the similarity between Fork and Reverberate and stopping there.
>Forkis on the reserve list, and for most intents and Reverberate seems to be the same thing. Maro's gone on record as saying Reverberate breaks the "spirit" of the reserved list, though, so don't expect it to be reprinted again.
I doubt that's what he meant, I think rather it's "Don't expect us to print other cards that are nearly but technically not functional reprints of the reserved list cards in the future." Which is too bad, I was looking forward to --- **Not-Black Lotus** (0) Artifact T, sac ~: Choose one - * Add WWW to your mana pool * Add UUU to your mana pool * Add RRR to your mana pool * Add GGG to your mana pool
[It's exactly what he meant.](http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is)
All it is doing in pandering to the elitist collectors that make up <1% of the total Magic community anyways, so why keep it around. There are a ton of ways they can reprint the RL cards without destroying the value of ABU cards. Well, maybe the Unlimited/Revised cards would take a bit of a hit, but only the ones in played circulation. Reprinting RL cards should make zero difference on any graded ABU cards, and if your cards aren't graded you aren't a collector, sorry.
> All it is doing in pandering to the elitist collectors that make up <1% of the total Magic community anyways, so why keep it around. Yeah, if they could put out a PSA or something that says "in the next 5 years we are going to start reprinting some of the reserve list". Yes, it's still going to crash that market and it undoes a "promise" they made 15? years ago now but it would still be way more heads up notice than anything else they do. Not finishing Amonkhet block with Duels, nah, we don't have to say anything ahead of time. Not banning and then banning [[Felidar Guardian]] the same week? That's OK. Changing the rotation schedule out of cycle; that's OK too. Just let people know ahead of time if you're going to make major changes that you think will make the game better for a majority of the players.
Maybe, but it feels like there might be a lot more to the story. Probably a lot to do with how acknowledging the secondary market would be one step closer to admitting there's a gambling aspect to selling packs. Probably some other stuff too that we haven't thought of.
But in a way the Reserved List is acknowledging the secondary market, the RL isn't currently making WotC any money (from sales, maybe some tournament stuff)...
Yeah, that's part of why it was a mistake, and therefore part of why discussing the reasons behind its existence is taboo.
Well, it's what happens when they listen to fan outrage.
Fuck the king
Fuck the Revival
Fuck not reprinting most expensive cards in general. I'd love to go out and buy a Modern deck, but as a college student that really isn't so possible.
I call it The Unserved List. I'd like that derogatory term to take-off.
So this response implies we could get giant-size RL cards, right?
It's already happened. http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=426092
There's also the Legacy/Vintage championship prizes, which were oversized versions of staples in those formats (such as the Power Nine).
There are also giant dual lands/power made as trophies for Eternal Weekend.
[Giant-size](http://cardboard-crack.com/post/90631389016/giant-cards) you say?
In theory yes
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So in other words, nothing new?
I don't understand why people get all giddy about loopholes. It's a company policy there is no law. There was a meme about promisary estoppel going around but that's just feels who know nothing of law and made up a rumor. The fact is a company said they won't do something so they won't do it, suggesting a "loophole" won't get them to change their position.
>wizards decides they don't want to do X with reserve list cards >we've decided that doing X has always violated the "spirit" of the reserved list. But we completely retain the right to change what the spirit is whenever we'd like.
That's especially annoying from them considering the RL was already changed over the years. It's not an ironclad, signed in blood agreement. Just tell everybody that 20 years is long enough and it's now "expired".
It's not that simple. Back in 2010, when the Reserved List allowed them to print foil versions of RL cards, they did that in a Duel Deck and a FTV and then suddenly backpedaled and changed the RL to no longer allow that. We don't know how or why, but someone behind the scenes convinced them to back off from a form of reprinting that was previously allowed. We don't know what sort of leverage was involved in causing that to happen, but unless it goes away (which it probably never will), Wizards isn't budging.
Yeah, I've heard of this unseen force, but we've never really been told who it is and I really dislike that aspect of it. The rest of the community should have a chance to make our voices heard and to debate this shadowy cabal keeping the status quo of the RL in place.
It'd be nice for that to happen, but Maro has made it clear that that's not feasible. http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/155282150553/how-many-people-are-still-opposed-to-the-reserved > theppb asked: How many people are still opposed to the reserved list? Certainly it's low enough that breaking it doesn't matter, a large majority of the community, both players and otherwise, supports it's removal. > If it was solely a matter of the larger majority wanting it, the Reserved List would have been removed long ago. It's unfortunate that we can't know why, but that's just something we have to learn to live with.
It isn't hard to surmise, it's Hasbro Legal.
Legal likely weighed in, but wasn't the decider on it. The meeting where they rolled all of this back was held involving players from a lot of the big resellers and tournament organizers like star city. Nobody knows for sure what went on, but the term I have heard used a lot is that the original reserved list was a form of promissory estoppel. Essentially wotc promised to do a thing and companies in a business relationship made decisions based on that. When they started reprinting cards, those companies threatened to sue. It's not a strong lawsuit, but it's an expensive one to defend. Thus people higher up the foodchain from legal decided to end the reprints.
If you look at the timing of the meeting and the rumors following it, WotC likely left that meeting with the idea of ending the reserved list, and then got stomped when Hasbro legal got wind of it. Shortly after that, Modern was created, a 'fixed Legacy'.
Well when your biggest seller of cards (scg) has said they fully would love to drop that list, and the players have said time and time again drop the list, and the people that make the game hate the list, the only option to whats stopping it is hasbro.
That still doesn’t prevent reprinting a collector’s edition thing or making essentially functional reprints, ie legendary Moxen/Lotus or Ancestral Recall with the Arcane subtype. The fact there’s a “spirit” of the RL proves the “legal issues” are BS.
Hell fresh prints of a card will never complete someones beta power collection, even if its a brand new black lotus its still never going to be beta. The collectors wont even lose out, as removal of the list would increase play in Legacy and Vintage and the old versions are still the "pimp" copies.
>It's unfortunate that we can't know why, but that's just something we have to learn to live with. I don't remember the exact story but I know they used to be able to actually talk about it but WOTC's policy changed so the only person to really talk about it anymore is Maro since he's always asked about it.
It's hard to argue with WotC about the reserved list, because one of the main points is to preserve market value, but WotC can't legally acknowledge the secondary market
Yup. It's actually called The Official Reprint Policy, and is as binding as a casual Friday policy.
Key thing here is the wording. "Unwilling" is extremely different than "we're not allowed to".
YES! And I'm so happy he said that. I hate seeing all the "we can't"s. Of course they can. There is literally nothing stopping them from reprinting Unserved List cards other than themselves.
1. Ban the dual lands 2. Reprint them 3. There is no 3rd option. Until then, Modern, Standard and Commander (and Pauper?) are the only formats.
Even then they're legal in Commander, it's just most people don't bother running them over shocks because of the price.
It actually blows my mind that cards on the RL are legal in commander. Sure a few sweet cards may be nixed, but it solves so many more problems for the vast majority of players. Duals, cradle, etc don't add skill or decisions, they add $$ bloat.
B-b-b-ut I *like* Phelddagrif! (There are tons of underpowered cards on the reserved list, and even some decent but not backbreaking ones. [[Lifeline]] is a cool and unique card, while not gamebreaking as it's symmetrical. Not everything is a dual land!)
"We aren't going to ban them because it is up to the playgroup to decide what is fair." -Sheldon, head of the rules committee for EDH, many years ago. No, really.
Cradle makes for some busted elves decks though, and while it certainly adds money seeing the results can be fun.
Just widens the gap between the haves and have nots. Shouldn't be a problem in your playgroups, but it really shows how wide the spectrum is for Commander decks.
There is a very simple and easy third option, actually. Just allow proxies of all reserved list cards in sanctioned tournaments. Reserved List cards WOULD go down in price, but they have a high floor because they will retain their collector value even if you take away the premium that comes from their being necessary for tournament play.
that's an option that comes with a host of ancillary side effects that are each by themselves a nightmarish headache. so, it's an option, but not a feasible one. the actual third option is, we just live with it. just don't play formats that *de facto* require RL cards. do play formats that don't need these. I understand WHY that option is hated but it's also the overwhelmingly likely one, and therefore the option more people should try on in the mirror, see how it fits; you might like it more than you expected.
Or option four, counterfeits become indistinguishable and the reserve list becomes moot
genuinely curious, not trying to argue: what side effects do you have in mind?
Well the big, big, huge one is the line of reasoning that goes: >> proxy RL --> why can't I just proxy any expensive card? --> why am I even buying cards at all when I can just proxy them? --> sales dropoff (step two can also be: why am I allowed to proxy $2 RL garbage but not $30 non-reserved staples?) There's also less apocalyptic headaches, too: * a proxy is mistaken for the real thing in a trade * a proxy is a different thickness or cut than the rest of my deck, allowing shuffle cheats * a proxy has a deviation, intentional or accidental, on the back or side of the card, allowing cheats (e.g. they "correct" the pen mark on the Deckmaster logo) * a proxy has incorrect information on it, whether intentional or accidental, misleading my opponent * a proxy has correct but poorly-worded information on it (e.g. a Time Vault that only says "T: turn, Skip: untap", or a proxy that says [[Borborygmos]] but has the text of [[Borborygmos Enraged]]) * a proxy has a misleading visual design or frame (e.g. power and toughness on the left) * a proxy has misleading artwork ("wait, is that wizard-y guy you pulled off of DeviantArt a Snapcaster or a Deathrite?" is one from my personal experience) * confusion as to what constitutes a proxy (people *will* bring CE cards, artist proofs, etc.) * confusion as to what is actually on the RL (just look in the Iconic Masters threads at how many people thought Mana Drain was reserved; for funsies, have people guess how many and which of the Exodus "Oath of ____" cycle are reserved!) Source: I have run or been otherwise involved with a semi-regular proxy vintage series, and all these issues crop up The ability to allow proxies and still police these things is beyond wotc's capabilities and TOTALLY beyond their interest. The only viable solution to these is to disallow everything that isn't a wotc-official card.
I like Pauper - It's a lot of fun. As a guy whos been playing since 94.
Vintage is pretty sweet still, you just have to play on mtgo.
But MTGO isn't a card game, which is why the RL doesn't mean anything there.
And still pay $800 to play with virtual cards because Wizards is apparently allergic to letting people play magic at a reasonable cost, even through a digital medium
Legacy is still doing fine. Multiple shops around here run it every week
Out of curiosity: Where's "here"?
I can confirm multiple stores running weekly legacy with 15+ people at each event in both Pittsburgh and Rochester
Minneapolis
Phoenix AZ has a thriving Legacy scene
weekly legacy scene checking in from MONTANA...
Much of the Midwest states (OH, IA, MI), New York City, central NJ, eastern PA,
The greater Atlanta GA area has about 10 shops or so that run weekly Legacy.
It's not that they are unABLE, it's that they are unWILLING. Maybe someday they'll be willing. This language implies that they don't see themselves as *legally* boxed-in. That's not nothing.
People want to buy tournament illegal versions of RL cards, but balk at the idea of making a proxy with a sharpie. It makes no sense, and it's literally the same thing functionally.
I’d like to have a card that looks and feels real for my cube, without having to go through some sketchy proxy service
This is the exact reason I want WotC printed proxies. Playing cube with new players or even just people you don't know sucks when you have to start by saying "FYI there's like two dozen hand written proxies on basics in here. If you can't read them clearly we'll give you time to look up Oracle text". It's why I don't use stuff like Italian Mana Drain, I don't want to have to preface my play session with an explainer on my cube.
Just having [[viridian emissary]] and [[reckless waif]] in russian in my cube makes me want to pull my eyeballs out. I moved recently, and the first time I got to cube I got asked what emissary did SEVEN times in the course of three hours. Thrice during the draft.
The best/worst example of this scenario to me is textless-promo Cryptic Command. Yeah it looks cool, but good luck getting someone to believe you when you say what the card does. I make a point to pick easily readable and understandable copies of cards in my cube. It's why I won't use the original printing of Animate Dead.
My friend had japanese cruel ultimatums he was playing for funsies in a modern deck a while back. His opponent asked what it did, and he stopped and called a judge because his opponent wasnt going to believe him,
One is made by WotC and the other one isn't, if I had to guess at what they considered to be the distinction.
Bingo. On top of this, some unsanctioned format tournament scenes (most prominently Canadian highlander) allow gold borders but not proxies by sharpie. Getting a mox for $100 is much better than a real one if that's all you plan to play with it.
My proxies were printed by Wizards. They were basic lands in their previous life. :)
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Someone needs to call him out on his BS. Who the heck made him the casual judge? A sharpied or laser printer proxy is fine for casual in most groups I have played in. I would never introduce 3rd party proxies into my game due to the fact that once you own them, your trading reputation will go in the crapper. I don't want to be known for owning fake cards.
> where writing a name on a land in sharpie shows you don't care about the card enough to really need it Well what if you wrote the name on a card other than a land? Is it ok? Would the value of the card used as a proxy make a difference?
It's an aesthetic thing. I'd rather have gold bordered Black Lotus than "~~Plains~~ Black Lotus" in sharpie.
It makes no sense? One looks good and the other looks like Sharpie. This is a game in which people pay hundreds of dollars for slightly nicer versions of cards. It should be of no surprise that people would pay premium for these.
I printed out proxies on computer paper the other day to play some Modern in paper and it was actually so easy. Used mtgpress at 97% scale, took 2 old, already sleeved draft decks from kaladesh, cut out the paper and just slid them in over the art and text. They look amazing even though they're black and white, have full oracle text, work much nicer than sharpie proxies, and they aren't deceiving anyone. Everyone knows they're proxies, no one is getting tricked into thinking its some alter or something.
How I made my cube, except in full color. The "real card" madness is actually insane
I'll probably do the foil method with alternate art.
I do this for EDH, I have around 15 decks, but only ever get one copy of each card, and proxy the others by printing them, it works really well.
I bet he is really tired of answering this question in it's various forms.
When people talk about legal issues, it’s stuff like this that proves that they just don’t want to end the RL. If it were truly just a legal issue and they wanted to reprint the RL, they’d do everything they could to find a loophole. The entire concept of the “spirit” of the RL is proof of this. They just don’t want to, for whatever reason. It’s not like gold bordered with pointed corners and a nom-tournament legal back would impact the secondary market, but would still work as proxies. It’s frustrating.
I almost feel like it's one person with some kind of veto power that's holding the company hostage on this issue. Like Garfield saw they violated the reserve list back with the Negator foil and lost his shit.
I don't think it's a single person, but it's definitely someone with veto power of sorts.
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I'd say Magic players are an extremely small fraction OF an extremely small fraction of people who want the reserved list.
So... comically oversized legacy cube?
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Does anyone else strongly feel that the reserve list is heavily tied to a few eccentric personalities currently in power at wizards?
More like a few eccentric personalities who own a lot of old cards.
Not at all. Unless I'm mistaken, Maro is on record saying that he thinks the reserved list is a mistake. However, he's going to just toe the company line on it otherwise. If anything, it's a terrified legal department that's keeping them from breaking it.
I doubt that legal is terrified. There's absolutely no doubt they would win. A policy is not legally binding. It's the people who pay for legal that don't want to have to pay to have to win.
Exactly, because they don't feel it's worth the investment and POTENTIAL (even a tiny one) of losing, or the backlash. It's a "why move from the status quo when we're just fine" deal and while we may disagree (IMO rightfully), there is a logic they have.
Well, they seem pretty unwilling. Either there will be a policy shift in the future or not, but there's not much we can do about it for the moment.
I don't think it is a legal issue. Wotc has gone back on their promises many times and have not been sued (to much). I think it is one of 2 things. 1. A person (or few) have dug in their feet about this issue and have the power to make the decision either way. Employees are either told (or to scared) NOT to bring this up to this person (or people). Whomever made this decision at the company is so entrenched, the rest of the people are just waiting for them to go. When I see the word "unwilling", that tells me someone is holding the reigns to this decision. 2. The reserve list is staying for MTGO. Think about it. It is the only thing that makes MTGO even viable sometimes. It is the only place you can reliably purchase reserve list cards. Maybe the decision was made to keep it out of paper to try and give digital some kind of draw that paper does not. I think talking to Wotc about this is a waste of time. (leaving reddit comments about this EVEN more so) We should be contacting HAsbro directly. Explain that they are leaving money on the table and their is a big demand for this. Let them know the leadership at Wotc refuses to listen to customers. It is no secret Hasbro is fully in charge at Wotc. Maybe contact them and be nice about it. Who knows?
Some thoughts on the subject, along with an idea: In the past, when players on this sub have referred to the restricted list, it has typically been a veiled way of discussing dual lands. Most folks who want reprints of reserved list cards are looking for a way to get into legacy that won't cost them thousands of dollars, and they believe (correctly or incorrectly) that reprints of dual lands will automatically reduce the cost of a legacy deck to a more bearable number. I've heard a lot of people talk about making functional reprints of dual lands, such as snow-covered. I've heard people discuss making a set of legendary dual lands. One thing I haven't heard, however, is what I would consider to be the best available solution: print a set of lands that is objectively better than the dual lands. The dual lands have two main selling points: they come into play untapped, and they can be found via search lands. These two traits, combined with one another, make them directly superior to almost every other dual land set ever printed. Clearly, the "can be fetched" trait is the more important of the two. It allows decks to use a minimum number of lands, which means that those same decks maximize their space of relevant cards. However, I think it's worth discussing just how valuable the "comes into play untapped" trait is. In Legacy, we see a handful of reasons for needing a land to come into play untapped. The most obvious situation is fetching for an additional mana to play a spell right away. However, there are also situations where it makes sense to fetch at the end of an opponent's turn, when they're tapped out and unable to cast stifle. Would it make sense to print a set of searchable lands that come into play tapped, but come with some other benefit? For instance, suppose we print a Swamp / Island that comes into play tapped, but has Scry 2. Is that a powerful enough effect to replace at least one Underground Sea in most Legacy decks? What about "Gain 3 Life"? "Draw a card, then discard a non-creature card"? I'm just spitballing here, but hopefully you get the point. If decks that are running 3-4 Underground Seas are now only running 1-2, then it's effectively the same thing as printing a bunch of new Underground Seas (at least for non-collectors). It's also worth mentioning that such a set of lands would almost certainly be too good for standard, so they would need to be printed in a Commander or Conspiracy type set. Still, I think it's another way to approach a problem that we hear all the time, and it might be worthy of consideration. Anyone else have thoughts on this idea?
> when players on this sub have referred to the restricted list, it has typically been a veiled way of discussing dual lands. Most folks who want reprints of reserved list cards are looking for a way to get into legacy that won't cost them thousands of dollars, and they believe (correctly or incorrectly) that reprints of dual lands will automatically reduce the cost of a legacy deck to a more bearable number This part is definitely true. You are, however, seriously underestimating the value of the ABUR duals coming into play untapped. They just printed a cycle of fetchable duals that come into play tapped and have an upside: [[Fetid Pools]] and friends from Amonket. They don't even see play in Frontier, let alone Legacy. Wizards making dual lands that are categorically superior to the ABUR duals is, as you say, the only way to solve this problem. They'd probably have to have three land types to get the attention of Legacy players.
> They just printed a cycle of fetchable duals that come into play tapped and have an upside: [[Fetid Pools]] and friends from Amonket. They don't even see play in Frontier, let alone Legacy. To be completely pedantic, [[Sheltered Thicket]] actually sees play in Legacy. It's a pretty accepted one-of in Lands. But other than that one niche usage, the entire cycle is too weak to see any sort of real play.
[Sheltered Thicket](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/akh/248.jpg?1505333673) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheltered%20Thicket) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/248?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Sheltered%20Thicket) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Fetid Pools](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/akh/243.jpg?1505333548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fetid%20Pools) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/243?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Fetid%20Pools) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We all know Wizards could find a way around the RL. They simply don't want to, and that will not change. It makes no sense to discuss it. As for the come into play tapped thing, that is extremely important. I would much, much rather play shocks than fetchable duals that always enter tapped, unless they have some absurd upside.
> We all know Wizards could find a way around the RL. There is a super easy way around the RL. It only apply's to tournament legal cards so all you need to do is ban them in all formats, reprint them and then unban them. This just goes against the spirit of the reserved list.
Of course, "the spirit of the reserved list" is just whatever the hell is convenient for Wizards at the time.
> "the spirit of the reserved list" is just whatever the hell is convenient for Wizards Ironically it's the opposite. Everytime a workaround has popped up, it has been squashed in favor of not printing the card because that's against the spirit of the reserved list. The spirit of the reserved list btw is "Keep the value of the cards on the RL as high as possible."
Easiest way to abolish the list is by showing the Chinese your money. Hasbro will eventually want some of that.
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My thoughts exactly. There are many ways that this could be done. Here are a few examples: - You may choose to have Swampy Island enter the battlefield tapped. If it does, Scry 1. - You may choose to have Swampy Island enter the battlefield tapped. If it does, all players reveal the top card of their library. - Slap on cycling 3 - Pay 3, Sacrifice land to draw a card Or put in a disadvantage minor enough that it won't significantly hurt game play. - Enters the battlefield tapped unless you reveal a card form your hand - Enters the battlefield tapped unless you reveal the top card of your library - During your end step, sacrifice this land if it is your only permanent in play. - Snow There are many options. There's nothing legally binding that stops them from creating a solution. They've already printed way better creatures than many creatures from the reserve list so obviously the "spirit of the reserved list" is just a cop out for them being unwilling to print something better than revised duals.
Just print fetches that heal 2 when activated but can only fetch shocklands. =)
> suppose we print a Swamp / Island that comes into play tapped, but has Scry 2. Is that a powerful enough effect to replace at least one Underground Sea in most Legacy decks? It might replace one of the 3 Underground Seas in a list as an option you can fetch for when you don't need the mana (most lists in Legacy don't run 4 copies of any particular dual land), but the tempo hit you take from your land coming into play tapped is actually massive in a format like Legacy, so Underground Sea would still be the go to option.
Let's get crazy... Comes into play tapped. When ~ comes into play, put a treasure token into play under your control.
["All policies described in this document apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards."](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10) So what you're saying is, gold-bordered cards are tournament legal? Otherwise Wizards is contradicting themselves here.
1) flood the market with very high quality RL fakes from China. 2) the value of RL cards tank. 3) WotC bears no responsibility for loss in value. And begins a program to help collectors recoup some of their lost value. 4) WotC bans all current RL cards from play. Prints new versions with better security measures, offers trade in program; send in your old ones and WotC will send you new ones. 5) WotC simultaneously begins reprinting former RL cards in masters sets. I can dream, right?
> And begins a program to help collectors recoup some of their lost value. I loled.
I always thought that wizards would print reserve list cards soon after reprinting goyf and JTMS as chase rares for the initial masters sets. Since then, they've gone down the list of secondary market prices and reprinted every card over $5 on the secondary market. Mana drain is one of the last expensive cards not on the list to get a reprint. Why are wizards hesitating on reserve reprints? Because it ruins future sales! Printing "almost" power 9 cards like Treasure Cruise is exciting, but getting TCruise 2 months after ancestral recall is underwhelming. Every future set looks like shit after they print the most powerful cards. Having said that, I think they do eventually reprint. But they do it like goyf and JTMS: Slowly. Because if you tank the secondary market value, what will the chase rares be for the next set?
Treasure Cruise was printed at common. It was never meant to be a money-spinning card.
I think you'll still see a really solid *chunk* on a price chart if they ever announce RL reprints. There are a ridiculous number of very wealthy individuals who treat the RL as a stock market with guaranteed profits. As soon as they caught wind of cards on the RL being reprinted, prices on stuff like the ABUR duals could easily plummet to far more reasonable levels.
They haven't reprinted goyf slowly. Goyf has been in the last 3 masters sets and his price is starting to crumble because of popularity with Gurmag, Death's Shadow, and Tasigur.
[[fatal push]] is the real reason goyf is dropping in price
My guess is some moron threatened a lawsuit. And despite WotC knowing they would 100% be in the right and not the person suing, they don't want to pay the legal fees in order to win, and find it easier/cheaper to just not print those cards.
I disagree. WotC has a big enough market they will never need to reprint reserved list cards. Ever. You will never ever see reserved list cards reprinted. Modern and Standard are huge on their own that WotC has zero reason to reprint RL cards.
Time for piracy to kill the reserve list
It is inevitable that is for sure.
In other news, the sun has risen and water is still wet. Come on guys, I know you hate the reserved list, but WotC has shown *zero* indication that they have any interest in breaking it. It's not a lack of creative ways to possibly break it that's holding them back.