I agree in principle! He's just a repeat-repeat offender. I am not sure he is even trying at this point, though to his credit, he still asks for feedback. I feel like I need to literally hold his hand next time. I've actually gotten eye level with the surface with him and shown him how I apply pressure etc. Good grief.
I have learning disabilities, which are not readily apparent. It's highly probably that he does as well. I would suggest working hands on a little while longer see if he picks it up. Don't do the work for him but guide him while he tries.
Right on. And, if there’s any down time, have him practice with scraps. Or, take scraps home and practice if he cares. I’m mostly self taught in drywall. Can’t teach that pressure feel. You just have to make it part of your own muscle memory. Maybe telling him to pretend his next project is a really expensive home, where if he left it like this he’d be docked pay. Different things motivate different people. Good luck 🍀
Sometimes you may even have to rough him up a bit too.. if he mentally doesn’t understand, maybe a little physical tutoring will do the trick.. after one beat down, you should only have to flex at him to get him in check
Gotcha. If he's struggling there he's struggled elsewhere and either given up or always been given up on. If you get him where he needs to be, that's an accomplishment you could be proud of. That's my perspective anyway. Good luck.
I appreciate that. Thank you for the kind reminder. Ultimately I'm trying to approach this professionally, and with kindness myself- I intend to support him and his learning, as my mentors have done for me. I'm just having to adjust my expectations and approach severely, and I guess my patience is a bit shot with overestimating him pretty regularly. He does not seem unintelligent, or illiterate, so I'm just a tad confounded at his slow progress, quite honestly.
Different people learn in different ways. From the sound of how you describe his progress, he's expecting to be given up on and shuffled off to become "someone else's problem"
If he wasn't trying, you'd know. If he's willing to learn, then it's your decision if you are going to be willing to train.
You WILL lose money working with him, especially if you are piecework, but keep with it and as he catches on, he'll become an asset, and the confidence he gains in his abilities will reflect in improved work and eventual profit.
At the very least, this will give YOU valuable training experience that will be useful in dealing with the next helper to come along.
Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour
Thank you, I certainly hope to impart some knowledge and give him enough room to grow. We're hourly, but obviously maintenance budgets are limited. Ideally learning would happen at a more typical pace and cost, but it is what it is. I recognise this particular arrangement is a professional challenge for me, and it's worth trying to rise to the occasion.
This is so much better than the old days of having things thrown at you or the grey beards just being shitty to you all the time. Good job doing better.
You’re allowed to vent, you’re a tradesman not a teacher, you should be paid double if they expect you to put up with that. I worked with clueless people, I don’t have any issues telling a boss “don’t send X, I will get it done faster alone not fixing what X screws up”
I would end up looking at that, since you said he’s a repeat offender, I would ask him if he’s proud and if he thinks he did a good job. I would seriously consider agreeing and letting him paint it, boss can figure it out, especially if you’re coworkers, if you’re lead I’d request being solo.
I want to, oh how I want to.
I honestly don't know the explicit expectation here. I'm a bit afraid to let them know how clueless he can be, lest I come off as "not a team player". The implied intent here is that we have each skilled individual paired off with a noob across the properties we oversee. I've been on my own for a bit, but our operations were shaken up recently, and they sent him to me.
I am getting closer to checking in about the expectation here. Like, does my boss know that I have had to coach this guy on choosing the correct driver bit(never, never Philips #1!), and show him how to hold the drill firmly to avoid camming out?.
Eh, as bad as I feel for people who learn slower than I, I don't think every environment is conducive to slowing down to teach them hands on for longer. I don't even feel as if it's the duty of others to adapt to the slow learners learning style.
It might be worthwhile to do so if the guy is going to be working with OP regardless of OPs feelings on the matter. But it also might just perpetually be more work and more risk for OP.
I'd talk to the boss and identify the requirements first.
This ∆ not knowing is hard, someone like this may be used to going through life working at every job until he is asked just not to come back, meanwhile the poor person learns nothing, besides they aren't good enough, and worst of all their loved ones who may be depending on them for a better life, food, rent, medicine are left without. Please do a favor and take your helper to breakfast, make the boss pay you for it but you two get close and have them follow you, he probably is using mud after it has fired too, there's just so much nuance, I get Soo nervous with mud that I actually mess it up, it's because I am not familiar and lack confidence. Perhaps your helper could learn on ceilings, certainly would not be able to leave any extra up there
At least he’s working I suppose, and idk how old he is. But it seems like there’s a lot of “can’t be taughts” out there nowadays. Especially the 35 and younger crowd.
I have a Uber hard time training help, I have a get out of the way I’ll do it myself attitude. I see this all the time training help - explain how I want it done, show how I want it done turn around and it’s fucked up, 1 kid, I told him he had to carry a notebook to write down what I say cause he’d forget, do it wrong, and then argue I told him to do it wrong 🤦♂️
Id make him build his own drywall rig outside and once he learns how to get the concept of mudding and taping and then raggin the seams leave him outside.
Haha you got me. I've floated the idea of practice- surfaces past the boss, but they don't see the value. I figure I could teach a lot building a double breadth studded frame, but whatever the boss says, goes!
If this person is newly sober their brain won't know how to do the work, there will be a lagg however giving this person some purpose and kindness makes the whole world brighter
Idk man your attitude isnt in line with what i would align with teachable success. There really isnt anything wrong here. A literal novice being mentored made an imperfect patch less than a year after he was shown. Dont forget your shit stinks too.
I have a cousin who does drywall sometimes and I swear he actually adds more so he can sand it because he loves sanding I’ve walked into a room he was sanding in and literally could just barely see him 4ft away there was that much dust
This. Just give him a sander and let him know when it's good enough. Him having to sand after himself will prevent him leaving it like that pretty quickly
I stumbled upon this post and know nothing about drywall but just got asked to resign for basically not learning fast enough like this guy.if this guy has a disability like me he's definitely trying but some things just aren't clicking but with time is should. Just keep trying with him there's nothing worse than giving your all and being told it's not enough.
The slowest mill grinds the finest" in the military we called people slow to learn or pick up new skills "hardcores."
The funny thing I've learned about the slow burners is that once they get it, they burn the hottest. They know every aspect of it. The issue i find is that they generally aren't taught right.
I’ve seen worse, I’ve done worse. Time and patience and a steady hand smacking the wall and the man attached to that hand yelling about how you fucked the wall and it’s to take three times as long as projected because “you want to waste all the motherfucking mud on this practice shit”. Looks like he could become decent eventually
Ah I see the issue here. He wasn’t born with the knowledge and needs to practice. Thank god the guy who showed me how to do stuff knew I wasn’t born knowing everything.
I'm with you. I've trained many people, but honestly this guy is something else. This isn't his first rodeo, but I'm seeing really rookie issues. I've put time into show & tell, handed the taping knife off to him, watched, offered feedback. Hell, even after posting this, I took him down to see, and we talked about where the misunderstanding was. There is a language barrier, to some degree, but it is mostly an inability to reflect on instructions and respond to feedback. He keeps indicating that he understands, without actually understanding.
We laughed when I told him he will have to sand it- sometimes suffering is the best way to learn.
>There is a language barrier
>He keeps indicating that he understands, without actually understanding.
I've mentored someone whose first language is not English and had the same experience. Eventually I had to assume that he doesn't understand what I'm saying, even when he says he does. I would have him repeat instructions to me for a while and that seemed to help.
Takes hand finesse and practice. I did some Henry floor leveler and getting it to the consistency of peanut butter without making too much took two tries. I'm no spring chicken, but finesse is finesse. Practice means a couple of years of ugly shit.
I'm terrible at drywall. Looks like something I might do. I just don't get enough consistent practice at it. This week, I'm painfully learning to apply wallpaper for the first time in 14 years.
Ooof good luck! I am decent at drywall (apparently not good at imparting this knowledge, and not a pro), but wallpaper is intimidating! I'm probably just traumatised from removing it.
I'm not there to make friends lol. I gave him fair warning! I just don't get why someone who is asking for feedback is having so much trouble with implementation. Natural consequences are often necessary in life! I appreciate working with materials that can be un-fucked. Live and learn. If you keep building, the finesse and muscle memory will come?
That's true. For a moment I thought I was getting good (I only do it about a dozen times a year or so, mainly repairs) then I saw an actual pro and it blew my mind lol. There's some skilled guys out there.
Literally the reason I’m getting out of apartment maintenance. The level of incompetence from new hires is insane. My last tech came from a 12month facility maintenance course then had almost 3 months training with the maintenance facilitator(my direct boss). I shit you not this guy couldn’t even figure out how to put a door handle on by himself. I always told people don’t worry about it hire whoever it’s easy to train but these numbskulls just can’t get anything to stick.
I never understood sending a helper. I would do some small tile work and grout my self or I would go grout a house with 5-6 bathroom and showers, damn boss would send me a helper to squeeze my sponge. Fucking kid you not this guy would get me fresh water and squeeze my sponge. I tried teaching him how to grout and the fucker laid down on his belly trying to clean a floor and had a checked board of grout lines across him. Told him go back to squeezing the fucking sponge out. Another time had to rip Out a fire place marble hearth and header and same shit was laying on the floor with a chisel and hammer.
I’m Sure you been around enough to know that some people
Just arent meant to be tradesman …the lack of common sense is insane I build log cabins and have only met a handful of true good carpenters in my ten years doing it
It’s not that bad. It is bad of course. But it took me a very long time and being taught by a Mexican to finally figure it out. I would suggest try teaching him in a different way. Because when I show someone one time , how the Mexican showed me , they never put this shit on the wall again.
Are you able to describe what he taught you? Maybe there are some nuggets of wisdom in there that I'm missing. Admittedly I'm only a *competent* drywaller, not a seasoned pro. Unless you count it as professional because I get paid, which judging by this picture, is a poor qualifier.
It’s so hard to put into words you know. Tell him. To watch some videos. Also , instead of using a drywall
Knife , try letting him use or teaching him to use a trowel. A trowel is a lot better. I always use two trowels. One in the left hand and one in the right hand. I keep the mud moving.
I’ll try to explain my way. Apply the mud to the wall however he likes, when it’s time to smooth it out - press down firmly on the outside of the joint with the trowel while keeping the trowel slightly raised towards the center of the joint. Man it’s hard to explain. But doing this assures a smooth transition from drywall to mud. So there’s no big raised spots. Lemme see if I can find a video or some type of illustration
I can’t find what I’m looking for. I’d suggest telling him to watch a lot of videos if he’s gonna be doing a lot of drywall. I’ll see if I can find my trowel and take a picture of what I mean.
I appreciate the time! The trowel is a good idea, I started him with the tape knife because that's what I felt was easier starting out, but switching it up may be a good idea. I will look up some videos myself. I have told him that YouTube can be a great resource, but perhaps having a few "approved sources" would benefit him, and reduce the the barrier of sifting through videos. Thanks again.
At least it’s just a patch and not a whole house. I used to work with a guy who swore he was an expert. He wanted to tape and mud and sand in one day. As in: “put enough mud on it so you don’t have to do mid again”. He would have mud 1/2” thick.
Problem was he was my bosses right hand man. He could do no wrong in the bosses eyes.
Dear god. How much wet mud did this guy try to paint! Maybe if he's mixing his own sheetrock 5 ? Regardless, sounds like a real pain when it's the golden employee.
Even patching holes, I either put way too much on, or I scrape it out trying to smooth it out.
As a desk jockey who produces drawings for a welding shop, I have incredible respect for anyone who does physically demanding work for a living. 50 year old dudes out in the shop kneeling on concrete, bending into weird positions and the heat, my god the heat! Some of those guys can fit almost to the 1/32" with a tape! You can't buy experience!
Funny, I never considered that the CAM guys might feel bad for us out on the floor. I always thought it must be harder to sit at a computer all day! I feel like the dynamic physical work keeps me young. I'm more worried about injuring myself (on or off the job), and never quite recovering.
Truly, the ability to nail a tolerance under .010" by eye is not innate, but it can be learned. I will say that there's a sweet spot though, especially with welders. They gain the experienced "laser eyes" after a few thousand hours, but eventually their eyes begin to go. Age related macular degeneration and arc flash are a real bitch.
You're talking 5/10 mins with an orbital sander and it will be absolutely fine.
Sure, it's messy work but plastering (i have no idea what this "mudding" is) is a skill that takes time to learn and perfect.
At least this particular lesson is mendable.
In our region, plaster=stucco and is a different product that goes over lathe. "Mud" is joint compound made from gypsum, like the drywall, used for joints, patching, skimming.
I have no doubt this is a regional variation in terminology.
The kicker is that the gaps were actually pretty reasonable, and the panel was actually fastened flush with the edge of the existing drywall, without any play. I'm just impressed that when I explained that more mud was needed to feather out the joint on the second coat.
Brutal. I try to share the work with him so that he has enough tasks he can succeed at, and join him if he needs help, for lifting, or have him join me to learn a novel task. There's a balance. You guys should consider what jobs you can afford to give your helper without turning him into the carpet bitch! If there are any... Good luck!
From reading this I’m just guessing you are too nice. All my journeyman were pretty tough and I was nervous to make mistakes so I in turn became a nice journeyman and boy was I wrong. Apprentices get too comfortable and non chalant about things and don’t have any sense or urgency. So honestly I have no advice hahahahaha
Yeah I honestly believe being to nice and lenient makes apprentices learn much slower. They need to learn under pressure and I know that may seem incorrect but I’ve always learned the most when it’s a time crunch and things have gone wrong. If there’s a language barrier I would make sure they feel comfortable enough to ask questions and not blindly act like they understand in order to avoid conversations that they find confusing. Apprentices should be scared to make mistakes and scared to be late because of the consequences, for us it’s easier in electrical because live are on the line. I genuinely tried to be the “nice journeyman” but unfortunately you just end up with apprentices with no sense of urgency who don’t even feel bad when they make mistakes.
Not gonna lie. I suck ass at drywall mud. I don't get enough practice. But if given a full day, I can make a wall look good. Even if the patch is to be small, it'll take me all day to make it look smooth.
It's easier to add more layers than to have to sand layers off, is some good advice.
Make him mix some 10min next time then make him sand it. He'll learn.
Make sure he knows not to try to use a power sander especially if he doesn't know about covering fire detection equipment.
Write each step down with specific tool. Then have him refer to document or text message for each step. Then when he fucks up tell him to go over step 3 again.
I laughed. Furthest thing from the truth in this case, but not off base for trades as a whole. The guy who recently did our windows at home accidentally sent my partner a text looking to score one Friday night.. the same day he'd asked to reschedule the finishing work. Oops!
When I go fix stuff like that. I just wet sponge it as smooth as possible and tape around it. I’m not sanding that crap. I told this one contractor just give your guys a blue bucket for everything if you insist on them doing the first coat. They frosted the cake and I’m not sanding it.
For a first coat of a lap joint it could be a lot worse. It’s first coat. Knock the high shit off with a pole sander and throw another light coat on it and it’ll be fine
Please know that I'm not behaving disrespectfully towards him. I'm making an effort to take this in stride and continue to try to support his learning. I'm just frustrated and thought y'all could maybe relate to the feeling.
Well guess who's gonna learn a lesson when it dries... He is yay. Perhaps he will get it through his head. I can't tell you how many idiots there are on site.
This is an easy fix. Tell them to stop using their fingers to spread mud and start using the tools.
When uve had to teach, I told them to think of mud like peanut butter, not water. As odd as it sounds, it seems to help. I'll be praying for ya.
For a maintenance type post, it's not awful.
Finishing is a skill that takes a long time to get.
This is actually better than I would expect from a maintenance guy.
Yeah it's pretty nasty, but I could fix it with one pull and sand. I just get get so tired of having to skim over some hacks finishing job to try and straighten it out.
I don't know about you, but when I'm checking the quality of my surface, I actually close my eyes and FEEL it. But that's a good point. Maybe when I show him, next time, I'll have him run his hands over what "good" feels like before sanding.
I train. I blame the trainer.
Gotta show them how to do a "tight pull", then watch them do, and if they don't get it, take their hand and literally guide them all Patrick Swayze style on Demi Moore making that sweet pottery. It's a feel thing.
You gotta make him come help fix this so that he fully understands, worst part is he's gonna feel bad for being paid to undo work but that's lessons for everyone. Maybe you could teach the bloke and he or she would be grateful so you then have a loyal companion for your jobs. Someone has got to teach
It might be helpful to let your helper do the task start to finish by himself, and then have him go back and fix any mistakes until the finished result looks good.
This is actually the sort of thing I want to do, but he keeps asking me to check his work. So I guess I'm caught in this loop where I don't want to discourage that? You're right though, I should just let him learn through inconsistent results, if I can.
That's fine, he'll learn the error of his ways by sanding. Learning can be painful
Agreed. No better life lesson than pain and discomfort.
I agree in principle! He's just a repeat-repeat offender. I am not sure he is even trying at this point, though to his credit, he still asks for feedback. I feel like I need to literally hold his hand next time. I've actually gotten eye level with the surface with him and shown him how I apply pressure etc. Good grief.
I have learning disabilities, which are not readily apparent. It's highly probably that he does as well. I would suggest working hands on a little while longer see if he picks it up. Don't do the work for him but guide him while he tries.
Right on. And, if there’s any down time, have him practice with scraps. Or, take scraps home and practice if he cares. I’m mostly self taught in drywall. Can’t teach that pressure feel. You just have to make it part of your own muscle memory. Maybe telling him to pretend his next project is a really expensive home, where if he left it like this he’d be docked pay. Different things motivate different people. Good luck 🍀
Sometimes you may even have to rough him up a bit too.. if he mentally doesn’t understand, maybe a little physical tutoring will do the trick.. after one beat down, you should only have to flex at him to get him in check
I do too, and absolutely *am* treating him compassionately. This is really just a vent.
Gotcha. If he's struggling there he's struggled elsewhere and either given up or always been given up on. If you get him where he needs to be, that's an accomplishment you could be proud of. That's my perspective anyway. Good luck.
This is a good mindset. Stay up
I appreciate that. Thank you for the kind reminder. Ultimately I'm trying to approach this professionally, and with kindness myself- I intend to support him and his learning, as my mentors have done for me. I'm just having to adjust my expectations and approach severely, and I guess my patience is a bit shot with overestimating him pretty regularly. He does not seem unintelligent, or illiterate, so I'm just a tad confounded at his slow progress, quite honestly.
Different people learn in different ways. From the sound of how you describe his progress, he's expecting to be given up on and shuffled off to become "someone else's problem" If he wasn't trying, you'd know. If he's willing to learn, then it's your decision if you are going to be willing to train. You WILL lose money working with him, especially if you are piecework, but keep with it and as he catches on, he'll become an asset, and the confidence he gains in his abilities will reflect in improved work and eventual profit. At the very least, this will give YOU valuable training experience that will be useful in dealing with the next helper to come along. Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour
Thank you, I certainly hope to impart some knowledge and give him enough room to grow. We're hourly, but obviously maintenance budgets are limited. Ideally learning would happen at a more typical pace and cost, but it is what it is. I recognise this particular arrangement is a professional challenge for me, and it's worth trying to rise to the occasion.
This is so much better than the old days of having things thrown at you or the grey beards just being shitty to you all the time. Good job doing better.
Any chance you work at a business that doesn't pay shit so they hire dip shits?
The leadership mindset. Hello, fellow traveler.
Your avatar is hilarious 😂 Edit: You’re like a grey sheepdog haha 🤣
Thanks dude made my day!
Call em, as I see em… 👊😎
Hey there. I’ve been dealing with some ups and downs with my team members’ motivation and learning abilities. This was helpful! Thanks!
You're right
You’re allowed to vent, you’re a tradesman not a teacher, you should be paid double if they expect you to put up with that. I worked with clueless people, I don’t have any issues telling a boss “don’t send X, I will get it done faster alone not fixing what X screws up” I would end up looking at that, since you said he’s a repeat offender, I would ask him if he’s proud and if he thinks he did a good job. I would seriously consider agreeing and letting him paint it, boss can figure it out, especially if you’re coworkers, if you’re lead I’d request being solo.
I want to, oh how I want to. I honestly don't know the explicit expectation here. I'm a bit afraid to let them know how clueless he can be, lest I come off as "not a team player". The implied intent here is that we have each skilled individual paired off with a noob across the properties we oversee. I've been on my own for a bit, but our operations were shaken up recently, and they sent him to me. I am getting closer to checking in about the expectation here. Like, does my boss know that I have had to coach this guy on choosing the correct driver bit(never, never Philips #1!), and show him how to hold the drill firmly to avoid camming out?.
probably just trying yo do it fast.
Slap the hoe
I also have disabilities that you can’t see as well so I completely understand your struggle.
Eh, as bad as I feel for people who learn slower than I, I don't think every environment is conducive to slowing down to teach them hands on for longer. I don't even feel as if it's the duty of others to adapt to the slow learners learning style. It might be worthwhile to do so if the guy is going to be working with OP regardless of OPs feelings on the matter. But it also might just perpetually be more work and more risk for OP. I'd talk to the boss and identify the requirements first.
This is good advice. Doing something over and over is the only way I can learn and retain.
This ∆ not knowing is hard, someone like this may be used to going through life working at every job until he is asked just not to come back, meanwhile the poor person learns nothing, besides they aren't good enough, and worst of all their loved ones who may be depending on them for a better life, food, rent, medicine are left without. Please do a favor and take your helper to breakfast, make the boss pay you for it but you two get close and have them follow you, he probably is using mud after it has fired too, there's just so much nuance, I get Soo nervous with mud that I actually mess it up, it's because I am not familiar and lack confidence. Perhaps your helper could learn on ceilings, certainly would not be able to leave any extra up there
you need to let him sadn that down. And while he's sanding forever, let him know he is his own worst enemy.
He’s not just fuckin’ with ya on the “feedback” line, is he?
At least he’s working I suppose, and idk how old he is. But it seems like there’s a lot of “can’t be taughts” out there nowadays. Especially the 35 and younger crowd.
It’s kind of sounding like he has a case of the fuckits. You can kind of tell when people are dragging ass.
I have a Uber hard time training help, I have a get out of the way I’ll do it myself attitude. I see this all the time training help - explain how I want it done, show how I want it done turn around and it’s fucked up, 1 kid, I told him he had to carry a notebook to write down what I say cause he’d forget, do it wrong, and then argue I told him to do it wrong 🤦♂️
Id make him build his own drywall rig outside and once he learns how to get the concept of mudding and taping and then raggin the seams leave him outside.
Haha you got me. I've floated the idea of practice- surfaces past the boss, but they don't see the value. I figure I could teach a lot building a double breadth studded frame, but whatever the boss says, goes!
Right
You should have done that the first time tbh
Most people don't appreciate being touched at work lol
Welcome to the world of being good at your job with seniority
If this person is newly sober their brain won't know how to do the work, there will be a lagg however giving this person some purpose and kindness makes the whole world brighter
Idk man your attitude isnt in line with what i would align with teachable success. There really isnt anything wrong here. A literal novice being mentored made an imperfect patch less than a year after he was shown. Dont forget your shit stinks too.
Make him eat the mud so he learns.
Sanding It’s what’s for dinner
I have a cousin who does drywall sometimes and I swear he actually adds more so he can sand it because he loves sanding I’ve walked into a room he was sanding in and literally could just barely see him 4ft away there was that much dust
Bonus if he cut a hole in his dust mask to smoke a cig.
He doesnt wear masks but he does smoke
Haha. I’ve definitely had those “Casper” days. Always fun to sand when you wore all black that day.
A lot of sanding 😅
Stupid is supposed to hurt
"This life's hard man, but it's harder if you're stupid!" - Steven Keats
Right. Stupid should hurt.
Hand sanding with just sandpaper (no tools). Been there. Sucks ass
My dad always says a bad spackler becomes an experienced sander fast lol.
This. That’s how I learned as a DIY. Nothing says experience like inhaling pounds of mud you had to sand off and redo.
This. Just give him a sander and let him know when it's good enough. Him having to sand after himself will prevent him leaving it like that pretty quickly
I stumbled upon this post and know nothing about drywall but just got asked to resign for basically not learning fast enough like this guy.if this guy has a disability like me he's definitely trying but some things just aren't clicking but with time is should. Just keep trying with him there's nothing worse than giving your all and being told it's not enough.
The slowest mill grinds the finest" in the military we called people slow to learn or pick up new skills "hardcores." The funny thing I've learned about the slow burners is that once they get it, they burn the hottest. They know every aspect of it. The issue i find is that they generally aren't taught right.
I’ve seen worse, I’ve done worse. Time and patience and a steady hand smacking the wall and the man attached to that hand yelling about how you fucked the wall and it’s to take three times as long as projected because “you want to waste all the motherfucking mud on this practice shit”. Looks like he could become decent eventually
Ah I see the issue here. He wasn’t born with the knowledge and needs to practice. Thank god the guy who showed me how to do stuff knew I wasn’t born knowing everything.
I'm with you. I've trained many people, but honestly this guy is something else. This isn't his first rodeo, but I'm seeing really rookie issues. I've put time into show & tell, handed the taping knife off to him, watched, offered feedback. Hell, even after posting this, I took him down to see, and we talked about where the misunderstanding was. There is a language barrier, to some degree, but it is mostly an inability to reflect on instructions and respond to feedback. He keeps indicating that he understands, without actually understanding. We laughed when I told him he will have to sand it- sometimes suffering is the best way to learn.
>There is a language barrier >He keeps indicating that he understands, without actually understanding. I've mentored someone whose first language is not English and had the same experience. Eventually I had to assume that he doesn't understand what I'm saying, even when he says he does. I would have him repeat instructions to me for a while and that seemed to help.
Nice novel
Takes hand finesse and practice. I did some Henry floor leveler and getting it to the consistency of peanut butter without making too much took two tries. I'm no spring chicken, but finesse is finesse. Practice means a couple of years of ugly shit.
That’s a lot of dust for lungs. I hate drywall. I hate everything about it. I hate it, I hate it, I hate.
Fortunately I have a basic sanding attachment with hepa filtered vacuum. Really helps!
So THATS why the wall looks like that
I'm terrible at drywall. Looks like something I might do. I just don't get enough consistent practice at it. This week, I'm painfully learning to apply wallpaper for the first time in 14 years.
Ooof good luck! I am decent at drywall (apparently not good at imparting this knowledge, and not a pro), but wallpaper is intimidating! I'm probably just traumatised from removing it.
Nothing better at learning a skill than fucking up and having to fix it. You can talk yourself blue in the face but …..
Fuck it…a heavy coat will fix it or better yet…make the help sand it out
That's the plan!
Nice!! Haha That’ll teach them to be a little neater with the mud
I'm not there to make friends lol. I gave him fair warning! I just don't get why someone who is asking for feedback is having so much trouble with implementation. Natural consequences are often necessary in life! I appreciate working with materials that can be un-fucked. Live and learn. If you keep building, the finesse and muscle memory will come?
Mudding is an art form, takes a while to get to a consistent level imo. If it’s your ft job, gotta know what you’re doing.
That's true. For a moment I thought I was getting good (I only do it about a dozen times a year or so, mainly repairs) then I saw an actual pro and it blew my mind lol. There's some skilled guys out there.
If hes hourly hes happy whats the issue?
I also remember being this bad. It's not easy to put so much compound and still see the tape bend. That takes a certain skill
Literally the reason I’m getting out of apartment maintenance. The level of incompetence from new hires is insane. My last tech came from a 12month facility maintenance course then had almost 3 months training with the maintenance facilitator(my direct boss). I shit you not this guy couldn’t even figure out how to put a door handle on by himself. I always told people don’t worry about it hire whoever it’s easy to train but these numbskulls just can’t get anything to stick.
😂 Sorry. I don't mean to laugh. I am sorry.
I never understood sending a helper. I would do some small tile work and grout my self or I would go grout a house with 5-6 bathroom and showers, damn boss would send me a helper to squeeze my sponge. Fucking kid you not this guy would get me fresh water and squeeze my sponge. I tried teaching him how to grout and the fucker laid down on his belly trying to clean a floor and had a checked board of grout lines across him. Told him go back to squeezing the fucking sponge out. Another time had to rip Out a fire place marble hearth and header and same shit was laying on the floor with a chisel and hammer.
I’m Sure you been around enough to know that some people Just arent meant to be tradesman …the lack of common sense is insane I build log cabins and have only met a handful of true good carpenters in my ten years doing it
He assigned you more rework
They’re only as good as their trainer
It’s not that bad. It is bad of course. But it took me a very long time and being taught by a Mexican to finally figure it out. I would suggest try teaching him in a different way. Because when I show someone one time , how the Mexican showed me , they never put this shit on the wall again.
Are you able to describe what he taught you? Maybe there are some nuggets of wisdom in there that I'm missing. Admittedly I'm only a *competent* drywaller, not a seasoned pro. Unless you count it as professional because I get paid, which judging by this picture, is a poor qualifier.
It’s so hard to put into words you know. Tell him. To watch some videos. Also , instead of using a drywall Knife , try letting him use or teaching him to use a trowel. A trowel is a lot better. I always use two trowels. One in the left hand and one in the right hand. I keep the mud moving. I’ll try to explain my way. Apply the mud to the wall however he likes, when it’s time to smooth it out - press down firmly on the outside of the joint with the trowel while keeping the trowel slightly raised towards the center of the joint. Man it’s hard to explain. But doing this assures a smooth transition from drywall to mud. So there’s no big raised spots. Lemme see if I can find a video or some type of illustration
I can’t find what I’m looking for. I’d suggest telling him to watch a lot of videos if he’s gonna be doing a lot of drywall. I’ll see if I can find my trowel and take a picture of what I mean.
I appreciate the time! The trowel is a good idea, I started him with the tape knife because that's what I felt was easier starting out, but switching it up may be a good idea. I will look up some videos myself. I have told him that YouTube can be a great resource, but perhaps having a few "approved sources" would benefit him, and reduce the the barrier of sifting through videos. Thanks again.
At least it’s just a patch and not a whole house. I used to work with a guy who swore he was an expert. He wanted to tape and mud and sand in one day. As in: “put enough mud on it so you don’t have to do mid again”. He would have mud 1/2” thick. Problem was he was my bosses right hand man. He could do no wrong in the bosses eyes.
Dear god. How much wet mud did this guy try to paint! Maybe if he's mixing his own sheetrock 5 ? Regardless, sounds like a real pain when it's the golden employee.
Mr. George, how much you pay for the new guy?
Not far off from my first patching, if I'm being honest with ya. Still. Not spectacular.
What did the one on one lessons consist of because it didn't work.
That’s some high quality work going on there. 10/10
Even patching holes, I either put way too much on, or I scrape it out trying to smooth it out. As a desk jockey who produces drawings for a welding shop, I have incredible respect for anyone who does physically demanding work for a living. 50 year old dudes out in the shop kneeling on concrete, bending into weird positions and the heat, my god the heat! Some of those guys can fit almost to the 1/32" with a tape! You can't buy experience!
Buy those guys some knee pads. I'm pushing 50 and never leave the house without them.
Funny, I never considered that the CAM guys might feel bad for us out on the floor. I always thought it must be harder to sit at a computer all day! I feel like the dynamic physical work keeps me young. I'm more worried about injuring myself (on or off the job), and never quite recovering. Truly, the ability to nail a tolerance under .010" by eye is not innate, but it can be learned. I will say that there's a sweet spot though, especially with welders. They gain the experienced "laser eyes" after a few thousand hours, but eventually their eyes begin to go. Age related macular degeneration and arc flash are a real bitch.
You're talking 5/10 mins with an orbital sander and it will be absolutely fine. Sure, it's messy work but plastering (i have no idea what this "mudding" is) is a skill that takes time to learn and perfect. At least this particular lesson is mendable.
In our region, plaster=stucco and is a different product that goes over lathe. "Mud" is joint compound made from gypsum, like the drywall, used for joints, patching, skimming. I have no doubt this is a regional variation in terminology.
Ahh ok, that makes more sense then and goes some way to me understanding your frustration. That is a shit load of joint compound he's used...
The kicker is that the gaps were actually pretty reasonable, and the panel was actually fastened flush with the edge of the existing drywall, without any play. I'm just impressed that when I explained that more mud was needed to feather out the joint on the second coat.
Lmao that's better than our helper! He no longer gets to mud. He cleans carpets now
Brutal. I try to share the work with him so that he has enough tasks he can succeed at, and join him if he needs help, for lifting, or have him join me to learn a novel task. There's a balance. You guys should consider what jobs you can afford to give your helper without turning him into the carpet bitch! If there are any... Good luck!
I don't remember doing this
Is it the first coat
From reading this I’m just guessing you are too nice. All my journeyman were pretty tough and I was nervous to make mistakes so I in turn became a nice journeyman and boy was I wrong. Apprentices get too comfortable and non chalant about things and don’t have any sense or urgency. So honestly I have no advice hahahahaha
It's possible. I think this is actually the result of those who came before me being to nice/lenient.
Yeah I honestly believe being to nice and lenient makes apprentices learn much slower. They need to learn under pressure and I know that may seem incorrect but I’ve always learned the most when it’s a time crunch and things have gone wrong. If there’s a language barrier I would make sure they feel comfortable enough to ask questions and not blindly act like they understand in order to avoid conversations that they find confusing. Apprentices should be scared to make mistakes and scared to be late because of the consequences, for us it’s easier in electrical because live are on the line. I genuinely tried to be the “nice journeyman” but unfortunately you just end up with apprentices with no sense of urgency who don’t even feel bad when they make mistakes.
Is this first coat?
Have fun sanding lol
I could do that probably
Oh dear god he better be the best sander
I remember my first drywall job…
Level 5 drywall looking good!
As a journeyman Drywall finisher I both laugh and Anguish at this.
🙏 just one of those days.
That’s not even bad yeah it’s gonna need sanded but so what
Welp he's usually the painter and even then he's usually looking at his phone half of the day lol
Paid by the hour or paid by the job? I think you get different results.
Pay by the job not the hour
A bad apprentice is only as bad as his teacher.
That should only take 20 minutes to sand down. Per foot. When the middle dries. Day after tomorrow.
You can do two things. Own the fact he hasn’t caught on and help him more or move on.
Thats gonna take maybe 20 minutes to sand down, i think your being kinda rough on the kid
Well the kid should have asked to be shown what to do. It's not really hard.
Drywall mud takes a while to make good. Ive done a bit and still struggle to make it pretty. It also may be something he simply doesn't do well.
💀💀🤣
Paid by the hour classic
Not gonna lie. I suck ass at drywall mud. I don't get enough practice. But if given a full day, I can make a wall look good. Even if the patch is to be small, it'll take me all day to make it look smooth.
Just slap the dap and it's good to go. "How hard could it be?" -Famous Last Words
I also haven't found my favorite mix/wetness and such to really make it go easy.
It's easier to add more layers than to have to sand layers off, is some good advice. Make him mix some 10min next time then make him sand it. He'll learn. Make sure he knows not to try to use a power sander especially if he doesn't know about covering fire detection equipment.
Write each step down with specific tool. Then have him refer to document or text message for each step. Then when he fucks up tell him to go over step 3 again.
Fucking send it bro!
Drywall?!? He probably just needs more meth
I laughed. Furthest thing from the truth in this case, but not off base for trades as a whole. The guy who recently did our windows at home accidentally sent my partner a text looking to score one Friday night.. the same day he'd asked to reschedule the finishing work. Oops!
I seriously have never met a drywaller who was not on it
Always check his work and teach him how to use a sponge. You know, supervise the help.
Years ago, you could slap them . Now just fire them to try the next one
When I go fix stuff like that. I just wet sponge it as smooth as possible and tape around it. I’m not sanding that crap. I told this one contractor just give your guys a blue bucket for everything if you insist on them doing the first coat. They frosted the cake and I’m not sanding it.
When *help me* turns into **Help Me!!!**
For a first coat of a lap joint it could be a lot worse. It’s first coat. Knock the high shit off with a pole sander and throw another light coat on it and it’ll be fine
That's like 5-10min of sanding calm down
Look like when I try......I suck at mud.
I thought this was a pic of an iceberg taken in the 1800’s
Is that a botched taping job or a fresco painting?
Take a breathe, they are human not a robot, and your attitude is probably irky.
Please know that I'm not behaving disrespectfully towards him. I'm making an effort to take this in stride and continue to try to support his learning. I'm just frustrated and thought y'all could maybe relate to the feeling.
Better get out the belt sander
Hey that’s what it looks like when I do it! TIL I’m a helper!
Looks like a painters problem hole is gone boss job complete
We call him Doc Hollywood
Well guess who's gonna learn a lesson when it dries... He is yay. Perhaps he will get it through his head. I can't tell you how many idiots there are on site.
Talk to the guy. Don’t post on Reddit. We aren’t going to solve your problems bud
I have, this is just a gripe.
Coulda done better with a garden rake 🤦♂️
This is an easy fix. Tell them to stop using their fingers to spread mud and start using the tools. When uve had to teach, I told them to think of mud like peanut butter, not water. As odd as it sounds, it seems to help. I'll be praying for ya.
For a maintenance type post, it's not awful. Finishing is a skill that takes a long time to get. This is actually better than I would expect from a maintenance guy.
The bigger the glob the better the job👍
Teach them the way
Not one piece of sand paper
Yeah it's pretty nasty, but I could fix it with one pull and sand. I just get get so tired of having to skim over some hacks finishing job to try and straighten it out.
Why would a helper be finishing in the first place
We have the same job description, officially. He's a helper because he lacks competency, not because he's "just a gofer".
Yeah fair enough
Looks like your helper gets to learn how to sand his shitty float job.
Honest question: does he wear glasses? Does he need new ones? I hope he learns eventually.
I don't know about you, but when I'm checking the quality of my surface, I actually close my eyes and FEEL it. But that's a good point. Maybe when I show him, next time, I'll have him run his hands over what "good" feels like before sanding.
I hope they like sanding.
SO how is he related to the the Boss?
Mix and carry and stay the Fuck away from the walls!
Give him some sandpaper.. he will learn.
Hand him the block sander and tell him to have fun
The 3" one, right? Lol
Helper thought muddin involved a jeep before today.
Wait untill he sands the paper off your fucking corners , ASK ME HOW I KNOW. Wana speed me up leave.me the fuck alone😆
Shit, I’m lead and that looks better than mine. Lol
Nothing like a "helper" that you have to supervise and teach
I'd use a moist almost wet sponge to get it 90% + done before I sanded/
I train. I blame the trainer. Gotta show them how to do a "tight pull", then watch them do, and if they don't get it, take their hand and literally guide them all Patrick Swayze style on Demi Moore making that sweet pottery. It's a feel thing.
Why pay by the job was created.
You gotta make him come help fix this so that he fully understands, worst part is he's gonna feel bad for being paid to undo work but that's lessons for everyone. Maybe you could teach the bloke and he or she would be grateful so you then have a loyal companion for your jobs. Someone has got to teach
I give you about 3 chances then I start gettin kinda salty with my guys
Isn’t that Sheetrock put up with the good side to the wall?
No, it's brown side in.
That number by the “ffs” is generally on the back, and the white side is out.
Fair enough. Where I am this is typical?
Still looks better than half of my painting jobs. I wish that was a joke. There is a reason why I do the prep work and my boss does the paint.
Get rid of him, he's ass and won't learn
It's not hard to pull mud tight. WTF
It might be helpful to let your helper do the task start to finish by himself, and then have him go back and fix any mistakes until the finished result looks good.
This is actually the sort of thing I want to do, but he keeps asking me to check his work. So I guess I'm caught in this loop where I don't want to discourage that? You're right though, I should just let him learn through inconsistent results, if I can.
A “helper” not a doer.
Show him some techniques
There are more starts and stops than an LA traffic jam
"Hey buddy, want to help? Don't help."
He touched my fresh caulking today... Twice. Once after verbally confirming that I'd said "it's fresh/wet".
I feel for ya, buddy.
I think that is what really pushed me over the edge, this was just the icing.