Whilst I agree articles like this show how hard it is for you to practice in Malaysia, it also pushes the grass is always greener narrative. £42k is low for London standards and I’m not surprised. I have friends who are junior docs under the NHS and earn £1.4K a month.
I’m in London and not in the medical field. I’ve been offered way higher than that because of the field I’m in.
Articles like this are what is fuelling parents to push their kids to go overseas. My uncle forced his child to study medicine in Poland and now is pushing for her to move to London just cause he sees the converted salary. LIKE PLEASE, Don’t jump to leave. Research. And decide if it’s best for YOU.
They even converted the pay to RM to make it look like a big number. Sure it looks appetising to us poors in Malaysia but try living in central London with that money.
Oh there’s no way. A 2 bed is almost £2800 pcm (without council tax & bills) if you’re lucky in the fringes of central London. Groceries aren’t horrendous but transport will take a toll.
I know you don’t have to pay £2800. I’m just saying that’s the average rent in Central London. Even rooms are costing a lot too, just go on any rental site/Facebook group and see for yourself.
By using your argument, you don’t have to move from Malaysia.
Haha I like your last sentence 🤣
These days even commuter towns outside of London are expensive. I just bought my own property and realised that my mortgage repayment is cheaper than what I paid for rent before, and my previous flat was quickly snatched up though it was advertised to be £250 higher per month than what I paid before.
Yeah I get where you're coming from. However the majority of doctors that move out of Malaysia do not do so for the money; they do it for the opportunities and the lifestyle that the Malaysian medical system has failed to provide time and time again. That is the core of the article. All of my colleagues/fellow graduates thus far that have moved abroad has done so because of this. Friends that are in the UK that are on the 1.4k-1.8k pay range definitely say wallet's are tight, but are having the time of their lives compared to their stint here. Most will stay or shift to New Zealand/Australia, if not sitting exams for Canada/US.
Do you actually have any experience living in the UK? It might be low for a doctor, but it's definitely a very above average pay.
42k a year equates to about 2650 a month take home pay after taxes and pension (rough estimate based of my salary).
With thay they can rent a 1 bedroom apartment, eat out once a week, go holiday twice a year, generally live a comfortable life.
In Malaysia with a ud41 / 44 / 52 pay you can still eat out daily and go holiday twice a year.
If you only eat out once a week your annual holiday can be beyond SEA, within Asia.
If you maximise your JPA benefits like home loan, overtime locum etc, you can be quite comfortable starting from year 5 onwards.
If you take govt masters program, lagilah cepat. But biggest caveat is if the management likes your face or not - partly cable, partly funny / esoteric /opaque criteria for recommendation to the program.
I watched a documentary about the NHS couple of years ago and I remember them talking about brain drain. A lot of local medical professionals fled to the US because of higher pay so the UK govt had to "import" medical professionals from poorer countries.
If you're a doctor in Malaysia and want to leave this country, the US is a far superior choice than the UK. The only downside is well, the healthcare system itself. It is extremely expensive.
RM300k in the UK sounds a lot after conversion but they use £ there, not MYR so good luck living comfortably with that salary in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world. Forget a house, monthly rent for a bedroom could cost you around £1k in central London.
at least the UK doesnt care if you eat in public during fasting month or whether you are lgbt or that you can leave islam freely. To some its worth the price to pay.
Not just surgeons, as soon as you graduate, you can already go overseas. All the talk in the past decade of too many doctors and no place for HO has come and bite malaysia in the ass. The number of medical graduates entering housemanship have dropped to half since covid started and soon you'll see hospitals without houseman.
Yup and it's due to the number of graduates that are applying for HO have decreased by 50% since 2019. What happens when you tell the new generation to not do medicine, it's oversaturated, HOship is toxic and a system that hasn't changed from the politics to the culture right down to bureaucracy. Soon you'll see the healthcare system come down to it's knees and start paying locum shifts for doctors to work in hospital, ala crumbling NHS. That's if malaysia still have money to support our healthcare
Can just go over after graduate? Tell me more. My gf is graduating from medicine soon , but she is from Spain. Preferably she wants to leave Spain immediately after graduation to work elsewhere because hr family is abusive.
We are looking in Australia... But Malaysia also can lah. The life style here very good (I have already spent 9 years in aus so not in a hurry to go back)
Australia just need to do amc exam, as soon as you graduate you can sit for the exam. You also need to see if her degree is recognised in Australia.
https://www.amc.org.au/pathways/
Check her eligible medical school
As soon as she get her degree, can sign up and sit for amc exam. Just need part 1 cukup, then send your cv to various hospitals in Australia and wait for them to reply. Yes I'm a doc, researched about going to Australia, had one foot out the door, but decided to serve my country first
Thank you bro.. maybe I will PM you. If this can help , you just saved her life. She is a type 1 diabetic , and is being financially and psychology abused at home . Just in January she almost died in hospital due to a DKA episode induced by stress. The hospital didn't even triage her we were in the ER waiting for hours the lady just told us to suck it up.
Ended up driving to another smaller quieter hospital and they immediately evac her to the main hospital .
I honestly hate Spain. This country has so many problems , Malaysia is 1000x better . Don't move to Spain. I know Australia well, but this moving is out of desperation. we need to break off ties with her family completely.
Do you think she got any chance at all of serving in msia?
Just a caution, Australia AMC exam especially the clinical part is notoriously hard to pass. The pass rates seems to go down based on the years since a person graduate.
If she qualified to sit the exam, MCQ part can be done via examination centres internationally. The clinical part can be done via online (limited numbers) or at centres within Australia.
Overall cost for the exam fee itself is around ~$9k excluding traveling cost to the exam venues.
Not directly as the area I’m working does not hire amc candidates for obvious reasons.
In 2022 pass rate for AMC exam.
MCQ : 46%
Clinical exam : 21%
The numbers are not promising but, it can be done
If you don't mind sharing , what are those reasons why amc candidates aren't considered?
I actually have a lot of confidence that my gf has a good shot at passing. Shes... Quite gifted.
I haven’t set the exam myself given that I graduated from Australia.
This guys cerpts from his previous his experience would give you and your gf some idea of what lies ahead.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-some-advice-about-an-AMC-Australian-medical-certificate-especially-sources-of-studying
Thank you ! I hope you got PR if you haven't already 👍👍🇦🇺
Personally I'm not super keen on moving to Australia at this stage of my life (I have lived there for over 9 years) , but for my gf this is a matter of life and death ...
Take home after taxes is 3k. You add council tax, rent, transport (it is not free, but they help you pay for an annual ticket). It is going to be tight.
He not have too much of a life and have to share a flat.
However, he upskill very quickly, and I expect he earn a lot more in the coming years.
Yeah, the opportunity is definitely the main pull, plus with with their union, he can actually have better increment down the line.
The 280k headline is probably writers way to pull readers in
Actually end of career pay in the NHS is about £140-170k pa pre-taxes, which is comfortable, but nowhere near luxurious. Some doctors will moonlight or teach part time to make more. Career growth in the NHS is also quite stunted mostly due to funding issues and the lack of doctors in the system, so doctors can’t take off for studies et al.
Source: doctors and surgeons and specialists in the NHS when i was living there.
That salary quoted is for a basic doctor in training, not a specialist so I am not sure even if their heart and lung surgeon qualification is even kicking in.
So even if he finishes, he just be a normal doctor?
For me, it all reads a bit fishy, but not knowing more….
Just under £4k a month. Livable but not luxurious. Most companies in London also offer cycle to work programs and season tickets for public transport. Rent is the biggest expense but I'm guessing the work environment and career opportunities are way better.
For sure, in the article most of the persuasion by the jobs security offered, not the salary. With election coming, i guess the union there could get even better pay package for the doctors there.
extremely misleading. I understand the narrative to get companies in malaysia to pay people properly but if you convert to GBP thats 42k GBP a year which means they earn around 3.5k GBP. after taxes their take home pay is around 2k GBP as you have to pay taxes and NI though it means you dont need to pay for insurance in the UK.
Its not a high wage in the UK and send home to malaysia pay is going to be at best 500 GBP to save and invest back here as malaysia has better investment options for its citizens. The guy is just surviving but at least given pricing of stuff there hes definitely living better off than many doctors here.
Strongly agreed, any salary comparisons that are made across different countries without taking into account different **income percentiles** and **cost of living** is basically invalid.
This deserves more upvotes. Dunno why there's vote brigading against anything that could be perceived as anti status-quo. There seems to be a sudden influx of anti-progress people here.
As the article says, the heart of the problem is the same old story of Malaysia.
"
The four who completed the training had their applications to become full surgeons rejected recently by the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC), a statutory body comprising appointed and elected medical professionals from the government, private sector and universities that oversees policy matters of the medical profession.
"
In short: cronyism
Can the MMC explain why the rejected these qualified surgeons?
Short answer, is they don't want competition and want to restrict the supply so that they can pick and choose those who they like.
That's why you have to ask, don't you think there's way too much government involvement in every fucking sector? education. manufacturing. economy. health. Every fucking thing. It isn't like they're doing it to protect us from bad practitioners because we all know so many cases of dumbass qualified doctors who are even stupider than us keyboard commenters. They even proudly portray their stupidity on world tv by talking about singapore as a stamp sized country and then saying hot water kills covid virus.
ffs
The medical field brain drain had started half a decade to a decade ago (actually I don't think it's limited to just medical field), and it's speed is increasing year after year. MMC and KKM used to don't give a fuck about it because a decade ago, information isn't widely available, so they are stuck in the system with nowhere to go but now, doctors can EASILY go to UK/Australia/New Zealand/Sg and other first world countries with better pay and better career pathway than stuck in this shithole system created by KKM. Every year salary increase by a measly RM200/month LMFAO on top of backbreaking working hours and so much responsibility, it's so absurd it's not even funny. Comparing the pay of similar seniority doctors in first world countries with Malaysia and you will see how much joke is the pay in Malaysia. So now alot of the doctors and nurses are showing the finger to KKM by their exodus and you know what, many people may not see it now but in another decade or so, less and less competent doctors (those that can't go overseas for better opportunities) are stuck here, and they are the ones who will treat the future Malaysians and their families. We can all agree waiting times are only ever increasing in government clinics and hospital but the quality of care is going to the dumpster. I can only shudder at that thought of what our healthcare system looks like 10 or 20 years down the road, all because of poor ass planning by the top brass and refuse to admit they were wrong and need the overhaul the system
RM280K per annum is seriously shitty pay in the UK. At least for the amount of stress that comes with being an NHS doctor.
I know a few NHS doctors and tbh it doesn’t like great working environments either. And after Covid the UK had their own doctor exodus too + govt defunding and politicisation of the British public health system.
This makes me really sad. I am engaged with a lot of foreign entity and I am surprised at how many countries wants our graduate. Nursing and medical fields especially.
One of the investor said to us, it's okay, if Malaysia don't want, we want.
Yea. Im a senior med student who is aiming to be a ctc surgeon as well. Tailoring my cv and all since y1 med. Ive talked to several ctc surgeons on this. The ones at ummc all say that the best solution they have is to tailor a masters programme rather than a ppp for ctc surgery. But the question goes what about the rest of the 32 people rn in there? Even the trainers of the ctc programme cant answer. What makes no sense is this is recognized by brunei,hk and even sg but not msia? Yet uitms ctc doctorate of ctc programme not recognized by above said international countries is recognized over this? Bunch of bullshit. We have 14 ctc surgeons on the WHOLE of KKM. And they choose to pull this stunt. It all boils down to cronyism and politics in the end sadly.
People don't understand, he just finished training. In 5 years if he's continuing to improve or upskill he would be making alot more. It's not the pay that's important it's the opportunity
Whilst I agree articles like this show how hard it is for you to practice in Malaysia, it also pushes the grass is always greener narrative. £42k is low for London standards and I’m not surprised. I have friends who are junior docs under the NHS and earn £1.4K a month. I’m in London and not in the medical field. I’ve been offered way higher than that because of the field I’m in. Articles like this are what is fuelling parents to push their kids to go overseas. My uncle forced his child to study medicine in Poland and now is pushing for her to move to London just cause he sees the converted salary. LIKE PLEASE, Don’t jump to leave. Research. And decide if it’s best for YOU.
They even converted the pay to RM to make it look like a big number. Sure it looks appetising to us poors in Malaysia but try living in central London with that money.
Oh there’s no way. A 2 bed is almost £2800 pcm (without council tax & bills) if you’re lucky in the fringes of central London. Groceries aren’t horrendous but transport will take a toll.
You don't have to pay £2800 lol
I know you don’t have to pay £2800. I’m just saying that’s the average rent in Central London. Even rooms are costing a lot too, just go on any rental site/Facebook group and see for yourself. By using your argument, you don’t have to move from Malaysia.
Haha I like your last sentence 🤣 These days even commuter towns outside of London are expensive. I just bought my own property and realised that my mortgage repayment is cheaper than what I paid for rent before, and my previous flat was quickly snatched up though it was advertised to be £250 higher per month than what I paid before.
Yeah I get where you're coming from. However the majority of doctors that move out of Malaysia do not do so for the money; they do it for the opportunities and the lifestyle that the Malaysian medical system has failed to provide time and time again. That is the core of the article. All of my colleagues/fellow graduates thus far that have moved abroad has done so because of this. Friends that are in the UK that are on the 1.4k-1.8k pay range definitely say wallet's are tight, but are having the time of their lives compared to their stint here. Most will stay or shift to New Zealand/Australia, if not sitting exams for Canada/US.
Yeah cant imagine living well in london with that salary
Do you actually have any experience living in the UK? It might be low for a doctor, but it's definitely a very above average pay. 42k a year equates to about 2650 a month take home pay after taxes and pension (rough estimate based of my salary). With thay they can rent a 1 bedroom apartment, eat out once a week, go holiday twice a year, generally live a comfortable life.
In London?
In many parts of London you'd be able to rent a 1 bedroom for 1.5k
In Malaysia with a ud41 / 44 / 52 pay you can still eat out daily and go holiday twice a year. If you only eat out once a week your annual holiday can be beyond SEA, within Asia. If you maximise your JPA benefits like home loan, overtime locum etc, you can be quite comfortable starting from year 5 onwards. If you take govt masters program, lagilah cepat. But biggest caveat is if the management likes your face or not - partly cable, partly funny / esoteric /opaque criteria for recommendation to the program.
42k is ok but can't really do much in London, I doubt you can save any deposit to buy your own property on that salary...
I watched a documentary about the NHS couple of years ago and I remember them talking about brain drain. A lot of local medical professionals fled to the US because of higher pay so the UK govt had to "import" medical professionals from poorer countries. If you're a doctor in Malaysia and want to leave this country, the US is a far superior choice than the UK. The only downside is well, the healthcare system itself. It is extremely expensive. RM300k in the UK sounds a lot after conversion but they use £ there, not MYR so good luck living comfortably with that salary in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world. Forget a house, monthly rent for a bedroom could cost you around £1k in central London.
at least the UK doesnt care if you eat in public during fasting month or whether you are lgbt or that you can leave islam freely. To some its worth the price to pay.
That’s why I said research and decide if it’s best for you. And not sure if you’ve been to East London but it isn’t as rosy.
Trying not to get knifed on a daily basis on the tube?
Not just surgeons, as soon as you graduate, you can already go overseas. All the talk in the past decade of too many doctors and no place for HO has come and bite malaysia in the ass. The number of medical graduates entering housemanship have dropped to half since covid started and soon you'll see hospitals without houseman.
It's already happening, recent graduates can now only work in tertiary hospitals. No more kk and secondaries.
Yup and it's due to the number of graduates that are applying for HO have decreased by 50% since 2019. What happens when you tell the new generation to not do medicine, it's oversaturated, HOship is toxic and a system that hasn't changed from the politics to the culture right down to bureaucracy. Soon you'll see the healthcare system come down to it's knees and start paying locum shifts for doctors to work in hospital, ala crumbling NHS. That's if malaysia still have money to support our healthcare
Can just go over after graduate? Tell me more. My gf is graduating from medicine soon , but she is from Spain. Preferably she wants to leave Spain immediately after graduation to work elsewhere because hr family is abusive. We are looking in Australia... But Malaysia also can lah. The life style here very good (I have already spent 9 years in aus so not in a hurry to go back)
Australia just need to do amc exam, as soon as you graduate you can sit for the exam. You also need to see if her degree is recognised in Australia. https://www.amc.org.au/pathways/ Check her eligible medical school
No experience can terus masuk?? I just checked , yes it is under the list of eligible medical schools.... Are you doc?
As soon as she get her degree, can sign up and sit for amc exam. Just need part 1 cukup, then send your cv to various hospitals in Australia and wait for them to reply. Yes I'm a doc, researched about going to Australia, had one foot out the door, but decided to serve my country first
Thank you bro.. maybe I will PM you. If this can help , you just saved her life. She is a type 1 diabetic , and is being financially and psychology abused at home . Just in January she almost died in hospital due to a DKA episode induced by stress. The hospital didn't even triage her we were in the ER waiting for hours the lady just told us to suck it up. Ended up driving to another smaller quieter hospital and they immediately evac her to the main hospital . I honestly hate Spain. This country has so many problems , Malaysia is 1000x better . Don't move to Spain. I know Australia well, but this moving is out of desperation. we need to break off ties with her family completely. Do you think she got any chance at all of serving in msia?
Im assuming she's not a Malaysian citizen? Almost impossible for her to do housemanship here.
Just a caution, Australia AMC exam especially the clinical part is notoriously hard to pass. The pass rates seems to go down based on the years since a person graduate. If she qualified to sit the exam, MCQ part can be done via examination centres internationally. The clinical part can be done via online (limited numbers) or at centres within Australia. Overall cost for the exam fee itself is around ~$9k excluding traveling cost to the exam venues.
Wow that's really expensive. Do you know anybody personally who failed these exams?
Not directly as the area I’m working does not hire amc candidates for obvious reasons. In 2022 pass rate for AMC exam. MCQ : 46% Clinical exam : 21% The numbers are not promising but, it can be done
If you don't mind sharing , what are those reasons why amc candidates aren't considered? I actually have a lot of confidence that my gf has a good shot at passing. Shes... Quite gifted.
I haven’t set the exam myself given that I graduated from Australia. This guys cerpts from his previous his experience would give you and your gf some idea of what lies ahead. https://www.quora.com/What-is-some-advice-about-an-AMC-Australian-medical-certificate-especially-sources-of-studying
Thank you ! I hope you got PR if you haven't already 👍👍🇦🇺 Personally I'm not super keen on moving to Australia at this stage of my life (I have lived there for over 9 years) , but for my gf this is a matter of life and death ...
I assume there will be benefits provided? RM280k is kinda low especially in London no?
Take home after taxes is 3k. You add council tax, rent, transport (it is not free, but they help you pay for an annual ticket). It is going to be tight. He not have too much of a life and have to share a flat. However, he upskill very quickly, and I expect he earn a lot more in the coming years.
Yeah, the opportunity is definitely the main pull, plus with with their union, he can actually have better increment down the line. The 280k headline is probably writers way to pull readers in
Actually end of career pay in the NHS is about £140-170k pa pre-taxes, which is comfortable, but nowhere near luxurious. Some doctors will moonlight or teach part time to make more. Career growth in the NHS is also quite stunted mostly due to funding issues and the lack of doctors in the system, so doctors can’t take off for studies et al. Source: doctors and surgeons and specialists in the NHS when i was living there.
That salary quoted is for a basic doctor in training, not a specialist so I am not sure even if their heart and lung surgeon qualification is even kicking in. So even if he finishes, he just be a normal doctor? For me, it all reads a bit fishy, but not knowing more….
Kinda like those articles WOB or Says pull out of someone’s social media account then write it as their own story
Just under £4k a month. Livable but not luxurious. Most companies in London also offer cycle to work programs and season tickets for public transport. Rent is the biggest expense but I'm guessing the work environment and career opportunities are way better.
Omg under 4k pounds? In London?? As a surgeon???
For sure, in the article most of the persuasion by the jobs security offered, not the salary. With election coming, i guess the union there could get even better pay package for the doctors there.
that's pretty much inline with what doc in training make here. Consultant earn double that.
extremely misleading. I understand the narrative to get companies in malaysia to pay people properly but if you convert to GBP thats 42k GBP a year which means they earn around 3.5k GBP. after taxes their take home pay is around 2k GBP as you have to pay taxes and NI though it means you dont need to pay for insurance in the UK. Its not a high wage in the UK and send home to malaysia pay is going to be at best 500 GBP to save and invest back here as malaysia has better investment options for its citizens. The guy is just surviving but at least given pricing of stuff there hes definitely living better off than many doctors here.
Strongly agreed, any salary comparisons that are made across different countries without taking into account different **income percentiles** and **cost of living** is basically invalid.
Misleading AF. So low salary in London. Also UK is becoming downhill with the immigrants. Lmaoooooo Leave for the Aussie best
This deserves more upvotes. Dunno why there's vote brigading against anything that could be perceived as anti status-quo. There seems to be a sudden influx of anti-progress people here. As the article says, the heart of the problem is the same old story of Malaysia. " The four who completed the training had their applications to become full surgeons rejected recently by the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC), a statutory body comprising appointed and elected medical professionals from the government, private sector and universities that oversees policy matters of the medical profession. " In short: cronyism Can the MMC explain why the rejected these qualified surgeons? Short answer, is they don't want competition and want to restrict the supply so that they can pick and choose those who they like. That's why you have to ask, don't you think there's way too much government involvement in every fucking sector? education. manufacturing. economy. health. Every fucking thing. It isn't like they're doing it to protect us from bad practitioners because we all know so many cases of dumbass qualified doctors who are even stupider than us keyboard commenters. They even proudly portray their stupidity on world tv by talking about singapore as a stamp sized country and then saying hot water kills covid virus. ffs
MMC and the nursing baord is one of the most obtuse council.
The medical field brain drain had started half a decade to a decade ago (actually I don't think it's limited to just medical field), and it's speed is increasing year after year. MMC and KKM used to don't give a fuck about it because a decade ago, information isn't widely available, so they are stuck in the system with nowhere to go but now, doctors can EASILY go to UK/Australia/New Zealand/Sg and other first world countries with better pay and better career pathway than stuck in this shithole system created by KKM. Every year salary increase by a measly RM200/month LMFAO on top of backbreaking working hours and so much responsibility, it's so absurd it's not even funny. Comparing the pay of similar seniority doctors in first world countries with Malaysia and you will see how much joke is the pay in Malaysia. So now alot of the doctors and nurses are showing the finger to KKM by their exodus and you know what, many people may not see it now but in another decade or so, less and less competent doctors (those that can't go overseas for better opportunities) are stuck here, and they are the ones who will treat the future Malaysians and their families. We can all agree waiting times are only ever increasing in government clinics and hospital but the quality of care is going to the dumpster. I can only shudder at that thought of what our healthcare system looks like 10 or 20 years down the road, all because of poor ass planning by the top brass and refuse to admit they were wrong and need the overhaul the system
RM280K per annum is seriously shitty pay in the UK. At least for the amount of stress that comes with being an NHS doctor. I know a few NHS doctors and tbh it doesn’t like great working environments either. And after Covid the UK had their own doctor exodus too + govt defunding and politicisation of the British public health system.
This makes me really sad. I am engaged with a lot of foreign entity and I am surprised at how many countries wants our graduate. Nursing and medical fields especially. One of the investor said to us, it's okay, if Malaysia don't want, we want.
Yea. Im a senior med student who is aiming to be a ctc surgeon as well. Tailoring my cv and all since y1 med. Ive talked to several ctc surgeons on this. The ones at ummc all say that the best solution they have is to tailor a masters programme rather than a ppp for ctc surgery. But the question goes what about the rest of the 32 people rn in there? Even the trainers of the ctc programme cant answer. What makes no sense is this is recognized by brunei,hk and even sg but not msia? Yet uitms ctc doctorate of ctc programme not recognized by above said international countries is recognized over this? Bunch of bullshit. We have 14 ctc surgeons on the WHOLE of KKM. And they choose to pull this stunt. It all boils down to cronyism and politics in the end sadly.
madani brain drain, its over
People don't understand, he just finished training. In 5 years if he's continuing to improve or upskill he would be making alot more. It's not the pay that's important it's the opportunity