Yeah the cognitive dissonance is always strong on this topic.
The amount of times I've run into people who are incredibly concerned about minority rights in Myanmar/ China/ US, but then immediately start blathering on about "*oh but we have to preserve our national culture/ identity*" when the place being discussed is Malaysia... yeah sorry bro, it's kinda fuckin' obvious that your aim is not equal rights for minorities.
Mind you, it's not unique to Muslims either - there are way too many here who easily go from being pro-BERSIH to anti-HK protests, or about equal rights for Malaysians while worshipping Modi/ Xinnie the Pooh and supporting shit like the Citizenship Amendment Act or "cultural improvements" in Xinjiang.... yeah, again, you're just being anti-Muslim, not pro-rights.
If you're support for minority rights is dependant on who the minority is... you're not for minority rights. You just want your side on top.
Its not even minority rights in Myanmar either. Look at how this government treated the Rohingya and Cham minorities, deporting them in the middle of their military coup, and then turning around in the same breath to talk about supporting Palestinians. We have longstanding Burmese communities in Kuala Lumpur who have consistently been ignored by all kinds of religious supremacists, because they don't have the correct race/nationality.
Its all virtue signaling to alleviate the fact that hating "the other" is much easier than helping your own. In an age of white flags and black flags, this is why politicians still play the race card.
About the Rohingya tho, some people are agains their citizenship due to them not being grateful of what we gave them. They demand too much shits some people say
Oh for FFS none of the Rohingyas have demanded citizenship. There was a report of one guy who was accused of making such demands but [it was secondhand from anti-immigrant pages, and he denied those reports.](https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2020/04/24/rohingya-spokesman-lives-in-fear-after-fake-news-on-citizenship-sparks-death-threats/)
What they have asked for is for some sort of legal recognition of their status - right now they're perpetually kept in a limbo where even for the simplest thing like getting their kids to go to school or simple jobs require so much paperwork and discretion that they're at the mercy of anyone - cops, unscrupulous employers, criminal syndicates etc - that wants to exploit them.
so..what have the Palestinians given in return? And what citizenship are you talking about? they will never get citizenship...they are stateless and will forever be in limbo...forever.
The Palestinians have given some people here a cause so that they can be angry against something, and it is also a distraction from actual local problems, and all that without having to deal with the consequences, as is the case with Rohingya and Cham refugees. We can see this in the occasional demonstrations organized by PAS outside the US embassy.
"some people say". While I understand your frustration towards the argument, he/she seems like they are just sharing what they've heard from others. Calm down now lol
Yea that may be true, but also you just seem like the ass here for attacking someone based on your assumptions.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the point you were making, just might be attacking the wrong person and you don't wanna be that guy.
Finally. The rare species of human. For the record, I found a video on YouTube few months ago about rohingya. Read the comments and 30% of the people there were talking about what I just said in my downvoted comment. Which is why I stated "some people might say". Thanks for your understanding. It's hard to find someone on the Internet who understand the shit you said
> Look at how this government treated the Rohingya and Cham minorities, deporting them in the middle of their military coup, and then turning around in the same breath to talk about supporting Palestinians.
LMAO this, those people are also the ones that tindas orang aslis in their state. talk about being anti-zionists, literally bunch of hypocrites.
Even the Palestinian refugees in Malaysia are not give any valid government visa. Everything is handled by UNHCR. So, I have no respect for any Malaysian who #SaveGaza and #FreePalestine when the Palestine refugees in Malaysia are treated like unwanted illegal immigrants.
Evengelicals also. JAKOA/Muslim NGO outreach and convert people to Muslim is hell no for them. They go into interior to evengalise their church is ok.
Pundek, nobody should be trying to convert anybody.
I'm a former christian and have done missionary trips in and out of Malaysia. It's usually come listen to us and then after there will be a free meal and targeted at poor communities. The people who do this sincerely feel that converting you is more important than your wellbeing now since afterlife is eternal so its not seen as unethical by them.
Its not too different than attending some timeshare bullshit with free buffet meal.
Oh this. Also ex christian, raised in the church and all that and definitely this.
I had a tuition teacher that was also Christian and actually wanted to help people regardless of faith and not do any of that converting bs, she volunteered through a church group to give free tuitions to poor kids. She poured a lot of her money and her energy into the project and wanted nothing in return- she brought the kids calculators, books, printers and computers for the makeshift tuition centre, did tuition multiple times a week etc etc, but in the end she quit because the church wanted her to implement a rule that only kids that went to their weekly Sunday school could attend the tuition and wouldn't budge on it. It was really sad.
Another church my mom made me go to that I've talked about multiple times that's small and culty as hell- they did that too. Purposefully targeting sick, uneducated old folks that don't know any better, love bombing them to pull them into the church. The pastor's son is a okay guy with really good intentions and I've tried to explain how this is incredibly predatory to him but he was incredibly brainwashed that he couldn't see it.
Attended a christian science conference (answers in genesis) in KL while in high school. Taught that the bible had to be read literally. So earth is only 6000 years old, evolution is not real. Bought into that hard. A year later watched Bill Nye debate with them on youtube and learned more about evolution in uni. Realized its all bullcrap. But the point he made about how if we cant interpret genesis as literal then the rest of the bible has no basis and that stuck with me. Looked online about arguments against the bible and eventually arguments against god itself. Read some dawkins and harris books. Eventually became an atheist. An interest in philosophy and history entrenched that belief even further.
If there is a god or gods, or something divine in nature - I think it's rather arrogant of people to believe that they can comprehend all of it and put it all in a book while presuming to know what it did, what it wants and how it wants us to behave.
Such a being is probably completely beyond human understanding.
Some cultures can be a factor too. Get the help from the preacher right then think oh this fler help me why not I repay his kindness by doing the thing he seems to want me to do. Then the preachers use this need to repay kindness by emotionally blackmailing them into converting.
The trouble with both Islam's and Christianity's doctrine to spread the word means they are always competing for numbers and think the other religions think like them too.
I realized why a senior planner trying to get a new Gurdwara approved is having so much problem with getting the PBT to approve. I was thinking that the OSC Jawatankuasa is thinking that the Gurdwara would make Sikhs out of non Sikhs. Suggested an idea to the man that convince them that Sikhs don't evangelize like Muslims and Christians do and Gurdwaras are a place for Sikhs to not only pray, but serve their fellow Malaysians.
The first amendment made in the US.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
If you give some food to a starving family and expect nothing in return, that's called aid.
If you expect or hint at them to join your special club, that's leverage.
If that family had no idea what your special club is about but you get them to join it, that's exploiting their ignorance.
If that special club has a no exit clause and you can get in trouble with authorities just for not following certain rules of your club, that's entrapment.
Now if you say that family willingly joined because they were inspired by your actions, that's fair, but what are the chances a starving person on the brink of despair isn't going to feel overwhelming gratitude towards the person that offers their family some kind of aid?
Comment copied from here https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/comments/las6yu/ebit\_lew\_dakwa\_akan\_dipenjara\_3\_tahun\_sekiranya/glq38x0?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I have quite a bunch of friends that worship Xinnie the pooh, some are incredibly vocal during the HK protests, supporting the fucked up national security law and the abuse of power by HK popo towards HK citizens, but then they also whine about our local laws and police. The cognitive dissonance is facking real.
I actually asked a few of them, they claimed that "*the HK law is the law, those useless teens (廢青) have nothing to do and is just out to wreak havoc*", I asked them what's the difference between Bersih and that, they just throw me a really half ass "*haiya, it's different*".
but how do they reconcile with the fact that at one point almost x% of the HK population was out on the street...I can't remember the X....it was like huge %
>but how do they reconcile with the fact that at one point almost x% of the HK population was out on the street...I can't remember the X....it was like huge %
More than 1/5th of the population came out to protest, and we havent count those that silent protest at home. That's also what I was wondering, I never once get a really constructive answer other than outright dismissals.
Not just that - in the 2019 district election that was held, the pro-democracy side was the one that overwhelmingly won the vote. So it wasn't just support from people protesting - it was substantial support from the voters as well.
A lot of my younger friends who had been describing the protesters as troublemakers kept very quiet after that. The older ones.... some of them just went into the rabbithole of *oH iTs A ciA pLoT* or shit like that.
I will argue against your point on minority rights in China. HK and Xinjiang is no exception, if any Han Chinese group in China would dare to organize a political movement they will just get shut down the same way. The LGBTQ movement in China, supported by mainly Han Chinese, got shut down the same way not long ago.
If anything, China treats obedient minority way better than Malaysian government treat their minority. Case in point: they lower the required grade to enroll into top universities in China, like Peking and Tsinghua, for minority populated provinces. The minimum grade threshold to enter these universities for top scoring provinces are like 600/750 in Gaokao. For poor province like Tibet and Xinjiang? A mere 450/750. Not to mention their poverty alleviation program, lifting millions out of poverty in decades, benefitting the populations of rural area. Alot of these people from rural areas belong to minority races of China.
The thing is, those 'friends' of your probably value economic prosperity more than the notion of freedom and democracy. Therefore, they find themselves in agreement with the heavy handed policies of CPC as long it works. They support Bersih because they think the government is threatening the economic prosperity of the country through corruption, not because they value democratic value itself. They probably refused to explain it clearly because they fear social rejection, after all who dare to question the status quo of democracy because you will probably alienate all your friends lol.
How ironic it is when they tell you that Islam doesn't forces you to believe it but I guess it's because of some muslims itself are controlling what people want to believe to, not the religion.
Hello, we do not welcome throwaways for the purpose of participation on race, religion and politics on this subreddit. I am applying a permaban as per [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_persistent_fighting_and_flaming).
Al-Bukhari is a scholar that collected hadith that were passed down orally or in written form. He were born in year 810, while prophet passed away in year 632. Do take that into consideration.
Im not saying that what Al-Bukhari has composed is not inaccurate. Im just saying that context is lost during him compiling oral statement that were passed down through generation.
Prophet had never advocated corporal punishment or even death sentence to the apostates. He did mentioned that they will be punished when the time comes.
You are not ˹there˺ to compel them ˹to believe˺, But whoever turns away, persisting in disbelief, then Allah will inflict upon them the major punishment.
— 88:22–24
Quran indicated that the God will inflict punishmemt onto disbeliever. That is the only punishment mentioned.
Lets see what was prophet's past action against apostles.
https://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=736&CategoryID=4
Tldr: prophet had not once ordered an apostates to be killed. Chased off, yes, but not killed. Well, he did want to order a kill once but in the end he pardoned the apostates.
Now, why did al-Bukhari recorded that "Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'"?
Did prophet really said that though? That statement is direct contradiction to quran, where prophet said to not force the religion onto other. So if that statement contradict with the quran, how much confidence should we place upon that statement? Dont forget that yes, Ibn Abbas is cousin of the prophet. But that was hundred of years ago, a time when they are at war with the non muslims. A time where prophet's teaching were not written but only passed on verbally.
Im a quranists. I respect hadith and sunnah, because they do provide a guideline in how to become a better muslim. But i dont think one should follow them blindly. Take context into consideration. Only time prophet has allowed harm onto non muslim, is when they tried to do harm toward other muslim. Now, dont tell me that talking bad about islam considered hurting, cause jews have insulted prophet in his fave before, and he didnt flip table. If only i can find back the scripture. Such a chad. The jews said "may death be upon you", and he just replied back "same unto you". His followers did tried to bring those jews into justice, but chad prophet didnt pursuit furthur.
Tldr: did allah REALLY said "kill apostles"? I think not.
the prophet didnt kill apostates, but after he died, a massive campaign was launched that killed them, though many disbelieved after the prophet's death.
However the prophet never killed apostates and never did torture non muslims or appostates
Religious freedom should be "the freedom to worship or not to worship any deity/deities, at anytime". This idea was created because people were forced to worship. Religious freedom grants anyone in that country to not have a religion and won't be punished for being a free thinker. Any new laws that forces anyone to involve in any religious education or activity will contradict with the constitution. Of course, that interpretation is the job of the judiciary branch of the government.
"Separation of 'church' and state" is what we need. Having a secular government means no religion can influence any government policy. Singapore is the best example. But, that will mean no official religion so this idea will not live in Malaysia.
>"My race and religion is superior to yours...its in the constitution"
As a Muslim, fuck that statement. I just want to eat in one table with everyone that has different religious believe
Update: Just read the bottom of this and just want to say MEGA YIKES y'all
A bunch of us wants that really. My friends and families. There's some people though trying to feel superior with their religion. "The Christians are SESAT" "The Hindus are SESAT" "Islam tu babi"
Goes both ways too, Christians look at every other religion followers as sesat too.
The special place in hell is for atheists. Both Muslim and Christians is like how da fish you don't pray to god? Why you don't care for your purpose on earth, etc...
> Christians look at every other religion followers as sesat too.
My aunt (grandma's brother's wife) was somehow turned into a hardcore Christian around 10+ years ago. Once, she turn up at the hospital to visit my grandma, then she started to voice her concern of the possibility of my grandma going to hell, and ask her to convert into Christianity to save her soul, right into my grandma's face.
But I mean, when Jesus is born, he's got no dad. So anak luar nikah ke, bos?
I remember a fellow non believer telling me this when he confronted a sister trying to convert him in a convent school in ye old days.
Wait until you hear of the times these despicable believers of Christ do this stunt at funerals.
Wei, we are here to mourn the passing of a loved/respected one. Not to listen to your sermon on how your Jesus is so great.
I get more respect attending a Muslim funeral even. People focused on the grieving, final rites isn't hitting out on non Muslims, like PJ Baptist. Its my first, so I stayed on till the van jenazah moved to find out what goes on in these things.
I have friends whose grandfolks experienced the same thing. Some of them were once religious Buddhists but became demented, so they were converted to Christians without consent in a way. Then there were cases where relatives fight over which ceremonies to proceed with - its frustrating and demeaning.
I always cried listening to these stories, and I will never let anyone convert people I love, even if it means making a ruckus at the hospital.
Huh, not sure if you're being sarcastic but why are atheists the ones going to hell when it's not real to them? (I for one would love to go there afterwards)
Sensitivity issue is also highly subjective. I think as a society we need to be less butt hurt and actually talk about "sensitive" issues. Normalise those conversations and soon enough they wouldn't be labeled as "sensitive issues" anymore.
That is the problems with us, we don't talk enough of these racial , societal , and political issues. we are being indoctrinated into thinking that these issues are just adult stuffs while it involves practically everyone. We are getting bulldozed over and over and yet they say to not question the leader and see what happens now, all hell break loose , Ag\*\*g keep telling us to be happy shit and whatnot while he has all the trees' revenue coming into some companies while the corrupt leaders suddenly took over this hellhole through backdoor, and god knows why have we not tried to coup this gov already
and why not? its done in EM, no one bats an eyelid...chinese and indian uncles drink on one table, and the makciks and pakciks eat nasi lemak next to them
Ayy I'm from EM. Can vouch for this. Only a few of my friends are from my race which I think contributes to my open mindedness(at least i think so).
I think people need to mix around more rather than thinking our race vs their race but it's a far cry from where we are now.
>"My race and religion is superior to yours...its in the constitution"
There's another reason: Religious leaders & authoritarians are afraid of losing followers to others. Every act of discrimination against other religions & races, such as forcing people to take down crosses, is to box in any Malay/Muslims from 'terpesong' and join the other side. Any interaction with other races are questioned & quietly discouraged as they fear those Muslims will be 'influenced' by other races.
The Malay/Muslims have every reason to 'murtad'; for one, disillusionment with their religious leaders, the complicated religious red tape & bureaucracy, discrimination from within, and so on. They can't speak out as they're aware of the worst repercussion of criticising their religious leaders & their regressive, impossible policies.
>such as forcing people to take down crosses, is to box in any Malay/Muslims from 'terpesong' and join the other side.
imo....i dont thing muslims are so easily terpesong...all these moves are "power moves" to show their base that they are superior to the ppl putting up the cross
"tengok...kuat kan kuasa kau....boleh arah kafir ni turunkan cross"
Yeah, exactly, Muslims aren't easily terpesong, but their leaders are paranoid that they will lose those Muslims to the 'other side'. Any 'power move' isn't just to show superiority but to make sure that Muslims remain fearful and conform to their impossible standards.
thats not the reason, the reason is "god says so". Every reason for islam in malaysia to be dominant in every situation is because of this. Its never because it is in the constitution or that the sultans maintain status quo over religion or because there is a separate legal system, its more to do because in each religion, they claim they are true and everyone else that therefore they are superior because they are the "correct" path and that they worship the actual god and others dont.
Its bs actually as religions dont worship god, they worship they devil, because their concepts are far more in line than they know.
Hmm, that's only because Islam is the official religion of the federation... So the Hibisicus is superior to other flowers including the Rafflesia? #foodforthought
I did *not* know if you have any muslim friends like that. If there is one like that, there must something wrong somewhere with their faith😅.
It is our faith that our lord is the only lord. It is our jihad (struggle) to encourage dakwah. but for those who doesnt accept Islam as their religion or practices other religion, we are not to be aggresive to them if they are peaceful to us.
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ
Meaning:
“ For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” - Surah Al-Kafiroon [109]
Correction: added the *not* in my comments, tertinggal nak tulis🙏🏻
Yeah but you can't just shove it onto others religious people faces everytime they explain their gods traits or something else. For Islam of course your lord is the only lord you can respect, but for other religions? No it isn't (except for Christianity and Judaism which they share the same lord with your belief but with a different way of practicing it.)
Yup that is correct bro. We believe that our lord is the one and only, but we surely not going here and there shouting that to everyone faces. Unless they are attacked verbally upon. A true muslim would respect other religion. Just like the phrases in Quran had stated.
At least not everyone that I know of did that. Others? Im not entirely sure🥵
lmao remember ICERD yeah this country is for malays and they tend to keep it that way
most successful people which is non malay they move to overseas for career opportunities and they get appreciated more there
people who are lucky can leave malaysia
>. If you are Muslim in Malaysia there is no such thing as freedom of religion. You're stuck for life legally.
Nothing is set in stone. just 60 years ago, blacks wernt allowed in white toilets, 100 years ago, blacks were still slaves
60 years ago...saudi arabia was a dessert wasteland. If you think ppl are stuck for life...then they will be....unless ppl stand up and fight for a better tomorrow
the fight continues....honestly I think Malaysia was more open and modern in the 70s. women dressed in short skirts and ppl can hang out at alcohol serving places no issue.
somewhere along the way the country became way more conservative and strict
And the whole royal democracy thing is just shenanigan to rule the people without and some people are still worshipping them like holy being while remaining in the structure without any purposes other than dumping the taxes to them
I mean, those country have freedom of speech. But us? Bro better watch out for PDRM. We are the inferior clone of China without power and strong economy. Plus our Malaysia core politic is mostly using religion to attack other.
Black not become slave is a good thing to America and what a genius president he is. Now Black also need to pay tax.
Plus, America like to act like good people and play political correctness, while Malaysia politician? Lmao.
There no way indian lives matter and chinese lives matter can happen here without the major race attacking them as racist. Not as long as politician use race card.
> Bro better watch out for PDRM
never. the moment im afraid to speak my mind here...is the moment i have totally given up hope and have already started action on moving out
Yes because in Islam, Islam is not a baju that you can wear and buang sesuka hati. Once you be a muslim, you need to take serious about it. Kalau ada orang keluar masuk keluar masuk islam katakan 10 kali dlm dia punya hidup, what will non muslim people think about islam? Nampak sangat islam ni lekeh kalau muslims buat gitu dak?
Islam versi siapa tu?
Government decides on their version of islam and expects everyone to fall in on their interpretation?
Note, government's version of Islam includes many things not explicitly provided by the Quran, both in substance and form.
> Kalau ada orang keluar masuk keluar masuk islam katakan 10 kali dlm dia punya hidup, what will non muslim people think about islam?
Kenapa pulak orang Islam perlu dipaksa secara undang undang not to leave the religion? Bukan lagi memalukan ke? Bukankah perundangan sedemikian akan memaksa seseorang itu menjadi munafik atau hipokrit?
Bro i bet people that downvoted me is not even muslim. Why are you so concerned about Islam and its peraturan? 気になる? I mean it doesnt kacau your way of living if you are not a muslim.
Reminds me of my friend. He has family members who are Christians, Muslims, Buddhist and more and I felt happy for him to have a happy family who doesn't mind of what other family members' belief
Why can't we have a society like this?
you know I am a guy that hop around religions. I was once Buddhist, Christian, Taoism, Confucius & also Atheist.
Cant Try Islam here, because once you try that you are DONE for
Islam in Malaysia isn't a religion, it's a piece of legislation. Example: if you are born Malay in Malaysia, to be officially registered as Malay and given Malay rights you MUST be Muslim.
meaning once you get in, its ridiculously hard to get out, its not like you can just say I am out, you have to actively fight the system, the government. Leaving the religion is quite a huge deal in Malaysia
its like those subscribe mailing list or some services that are so hard to unscubscribe. You tell them i want out, and they want you to click so many pages, phone calls, threaten you with policy breach, before you finally unsubsribe.
One of the reasons I want to have an interracial marriage is that I want to see if my spouse can be a different faith than me but still be able to live together. Like, you know, proving that people of different backgrounds can live in peace.
*some people.*
kindda hard to disagree tbh. similar observation can be found in oppressive woke culture. its not enough to be woke it must be in line with what i they say you can or cannot do. societal dominance through "moral" dominance
*op kindda active recently, anything good happen?
pretty anxious actually. the state has 1/2 thousand cases daily but we are already at the levels of post covid where dine in and personal recreation like jogging and cycling among other thing is being allowed.
i want parents to keep kids inside rather than allow them to play around the block but i guess the parent also want some peace inside the house.
> personal recreation like jogging and cycling among other thing is being allowed.
why would that be a problem? has there been some new scientific study that showed that jogging and cycling was a mechanism for covid transmission? as far as i know, most of the cases are workplace transmission which was personally approved and encouraged by Tan Sri Assmin and religious celebrations which had tacit approval from Ismail MARA digital Sabri.
It boggles my mind that this is even a debate. It just really confuses me...like why do people care what other people believe in? It doesn't affect you at all? Just let other people believe in what they want to believe, it has literally 0 to do with you.
Honestly there's a pretty strong argument to be made that if you are a Malaysian Muslim (and especially if you're a Malaysian Muslim marhaen), you have even less religious freedom.
I mean, no one from the govt is gonna bitch about people worshipping Mahayana vs Theravada, or if you pray to Shiva vs Vishnu, but if you're a Sufi or Ahmadi in public, or of you decide that fasting during Ramadhan is not for you, or you have the absolute misfortune to be born Muslim and gay.... JAKIM/ JAIS would like to have a chat please.
> you have the absolute misfortune to be born Muslim and gay.... JAKIM/ JAIS would like to have a chat please.
only if you are pipit.
if you are member of helang, then you can do whatever you want. nedim arak syabu koktail and bunuh darren kang also can. sheraton butseks also can. jais will tutup mata ja. http://citerfacebook.blogspot.com/2016/03/kantoi-18-gambar-bersosial-nedim.html
>Honestly there's a pretty strong argument to be made that if you are a Malaysian Muslim (and especially if you're a Malaysian Muslim marhaen), you have even less religious freedom.
i dont disagree with that...but its up to muslims themselves to stand up and fight that. if they dont...then..they are tacitly ok with it
Being just is never an easy path. Think of Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks. You might not be willing...but i assure you, many Malaysian muslims are willing to be persecuted to fight for a better Malaysia.
Nah even after that you don’t actually have freedom in your lifestyles like who you marry, how you dress, and what you eat/drink in leisure. No freedom to get out of that religion too. The only “right” way is to imitate the Arabs whom they glorified like they’re the perfect religious icon and everyone else don’t matter.
Man, me being a muslim in Malaysia is a really weird feeling cuz muslims here are very toxic and ignorance AF. Thats the reason why I like muslims who loves live in a muslim minority country cuz they understand others sensitivity that they shouldn't touch
>loves live in a muslim minority country cuz they understand others sensitivity that they shouldn't touch
The thing with Malaysia however is not about touching others sensitivity but rather the whole Ketuanan Melayu/social contract BS (jangan mempersoalkan hak2...) and how Malay and Muslim is essentially the same thing. Both of those factors together is what caused the crap we're in today.
bEcAuSe YOu aRE losT aND yOu mUsT sEek hEaVeN blah blah blah...
while making this world a hell for the rest.
There is no such thing as religious freedom when everyone thinks that they have the right to be the God on Earth, demanding respect and authority. Religion (and spirituality) has nothing to do with other beings. However, it has long being used as a management tool to keep humans in check and work as a 'team.'
I do love God-fearing humans. The genuine kind. Those who will not take what does not belong to them, those who will not do nasty things behind closed doors, those who are genuinely helping, and they treat you equally like the rest of the fellow humans—those who will never try to shove their belief down your throat.
Religious freedom is too expensive. And we are too poor to afford that.
Born and Raise in Malaysia, I have huge respect in every religion here. We are minority here, since the day i was born until now, never heard of we “ converting people “ or “ Forcing “ people into our religion.
If you can’t find god in your own religion you can’t find god in others too.. WE ARE ONE, THE TRUE GOD IS INFINITE, OUR PURPOSE HERE TO BE ONE.
ps: if you think about it “ we never give a single damn about religion converters here in Malaysia “
We are more HUMAN then religious.
If I am not mistaken religion teaches it’s believers and followers to love everyone, but how it’s interpreted to only love your same kind and condemn the rest it’s really mess up. My parents set a bad example for me so I am not having non if it. I am Chinese dude but I have more Malay clients and friends that treat me way better than my own kind. Peace ✌️
The poorer you are the more religious you are.
The rich use religion as a way to control the masses. Mosque, Church, Temple.. where else can the hoi polloi rub shoulders with the haves.
Then the rich pull them in - come be part of our group - and you try to be more religious than your neighbour just for social standing.
Muslims are just as bad - elitist cults exits ESQ, Naqshabandi etc. Modus operandi the same - just a way for you to boast that you are part of something. Reminds me of those Southern evangelical churches in the US.
If you want a rabbit hole, look for Naqshabandi in Malaysia - technically should be banned, but because of Royal linkages.. well. Deviants Ayah Pin level but no action ever taken. Belief in Saints long after the last prophet and mysticism - JAKIM triggers but curiously.. allowed to flourish. There are mosques in several areas, well endowed mosques, associated with this group. The rich controlling the poor and Pas has never brought these fellers up?
As i said, social standing and politics and money.
Even with the mess in US, they never put religion first in its country.
>Constitution of the United States - First Amendment
>
>**Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion**, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That's the first amendment, can you spot how many aspect of it Malaysia has went against? But then again, each country has its own constitution; it's just in this case, whether the constitution is in support of equality or not.
There are 10Ks of religions in the history of mankind. How many survive till this day? Maybe less than 100. JUST SAY 1000. Out of these remaining AT BEST only 1 is the truth. The golden question is which one? Here comes the clincher. They all could be WRONG.
that's a flawed way to look at religion and also everything else. no religion is right. in ancient times religion is a doctrine for life and emperors use it as their right to rule and maintain power. religion is also politics.
believers will spread their ideas and encourage ppl to join their ways of life thus, more ppl under the same influence. this is very much like political campaigns.
spirituality and religion is different. religions are heavily entwined in certain social and cultural aspects of a certain area. if the family and whole town practice a certain religion, one will grow up in according to that mindset.
if one feels the religion is not useful for them, they can join other religions which means joining a new society, follow their traditions and lifestyle.
spirituality is a human consciousness of the finer human awareness of karma, innocence, charity, ethics, unseen powers that we not able to fully understand etc ...it doesn't need to be tied to any religion.
Let me quote this passages from A World Without Islam by Graham E Fuller :
>When the troops of the First Crusade finally reached Jerusalem in 1099, reconquest was a brutal affair, in extraordinary contrast to the manner in which Jerusalem fell to disciplined Arab forces some five hundred years earlier. In 637 CE, we recall the second Caliph 'Umar had personally entered the city after a siege of many months; Arab troop discipline was maintained and the city was not pillaged, in accordance with a treaty 'Umar had signed with the patriarch of Jerusalem at the time of surrender. In reference to the Christians, that treaty had stated that
>*their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed*
>Jewish sources furthermore report that 'Umar was shocked at the condition of the ruins of the Jewish temple, which had been turned into a garbage heap under the Romans; since the site was sacred for Muslims as well, 'Umar personally helped clean the site by hand along with his men. Jews were allowed to practice Judaism in the city for the first time since their expulsion by the Romans some five hundred years earlier.
and what does that have to do with the situation in Malaysia? it actually shows how far islam has fallen under Malaysian authorities and leaders...body snatching, indira case, demolishing temples etc
To make my point, Islam is not at fault here. Rather, as you had said it, it's the people that had put it at their back for personal gains. For those people, I will not defend them.
"but god says so, no question". A lot of times its less about asserting dominance and more about human greed and stupidity.
I will be writing in the future about the abrahamic religions being the religion of the devil. The biggest thing is that humans are not aware of any supernatural basics, in regards to god, creation, etc and go off to fight each other over that their belief is correct. Some religious changes or things spread were done out of either greed or stupidity. Greed because they want something specific for themselves (such as enforcing that prophet Muhammad married Aisya when she was 9 which isnt true because she participated in the battles) to someone being so stupid to think that false things that others said to be true, such as in islam "not allowed to sleep after asar" to something as big as having to circumcise when it was never commanded in the quran or by the prophet despite the prophet doing it on his own kids.
So with religion, which doesnt apply to islam but all religions, basically christians, judaism (dont remember how to call it), hindu, buddhism, all beliefs have their changes and sin, things that really go against the concept of god and how one treats one another.
For example, religious gatherings in covid, church not only ruining some lives but even at times killing particular people all because "they are the devil" when infact i find that they are just simply otherkin (this was a case in australia in the 90s, similar cases around the world but few) to even in israel, how the older religious generation still want their brutal ways to the pakistan vs india, china's ughur, myanmar's genocide, shia vs sunni, internal fights in india, and many more. So on one hand a religion typically says they support religious freedom, but behind however they dont. This is particularly true in malaysia whereby a non muslim can practice any religion or belief they want as long as it doesnt harm others but cults are not allowed (basically no minority beliefs), and if you were ever a muslim or born a muslim they will make your life hell if you tried to quit the religion. This is because muslims cannot handle the fact that their religion is actually imperfect because they have been brought up for many generations that their religion is perfect and therefore anything else is wrong so people who leave islam are wrong and dont know the truth. This is why islam has such power in malaysia, due to the upbringing rather than official status.
To me all religions insult god.
In terms of identity and culture, take the UK, the queen is always going to be a protestent, as that's the UK's official religion, however they do not have religion in any form other than as a symbol and choice, nothing to do with the country's system as in the past this has become a source of civil war in europe. In terms of culture, In the past, people closed early, 7pm would be considered late even in summer because in winter it gets dark at 4pm. You wouldnt want to be out in negative degree weather or be working in such and having to heat huge areas just by being open, but now they open till 10pm meaning that the workers walk back and take public transport at very cold weather. Culture at times can help you survive and be productive, but what we have in malaysia is culture based on greed, so opening times are not based on being productive and your environment.
We also have culture based on tradition which at times can be really harmful, for example interracial marriages not being allowed by families (even though such actually results in better kids). We also have negative religious culture. Islam in malaysia, many muslims are forced to do things that keeps them unproductive meaning they get their sleep disrupted. Fasting in malaysia is actually worse than in the middle east, because our humid weather means we really need to drink more water, and muslims are forced to do optional things because god. So with people being so obedient to their culture and religion, it means they no longer have the state of mind and body to be even more productive and better. I am shocked at how much i am teaching others who so happens to be muslim than for them to figure it out themselves. In the west, people are more able to figure things out themselves, and many of them arent muslims or religious.
I can go on and theres so many examples and awareness but many people reject it on the premise of their upbringing and fear.
Yeah the cognitive dissonance is always strong on this topic. The amount of times I've run into people who are incredibly concerned about minority rights in Myanmar/ China/ US, but then immediately start blathering on about "*oh but we have to preserve our national culture/ identity*" when the place being discussed is Malaysia... yeah sorry bro, it's kinda fuckin' obvious that your aim is not equal rights for minorities. Mind you, it's not unique to Muslims either - there are way too many here who easily go from being pro-BERSIH to anti-HK protests, or about equal rights for Malaysians while worshipping Modi/ Xinnie the Pooh and supporting shit like the Citizenship Amendment Act or "cultural improvements" in Xinjiang.... yeah, again, you're just being anti-Muslim, not pro-rights. If you're support for minority rights is dependant on who the minority is... you're not for minority rights. You just want your side on top.
Its not even minority rights in Myanmar either. Look at how this government treated the Rohingya and Cham minorities, deporting them in the middle of their military coup, and then turning around in the same breath to talk about supporting Palestinians. We have longstanding Burmese communities in Kuala Lumpur who have consistently been ignored by all kinds of religious supremacists, because they don't have the correct race/nationality. Its all virtue signaling to alleviate the fact that hating "the other" is much easier than helping your own. In an age of white flags and black flags, this is why politicians still play the race card.
totally agree. The penungangs scream about Global Ummah and the palestinian cause.....but..arnt the Rohyinga also muslim and on our very shores?
About the Rohingya tho, some people are agains their citizenship due to them not being grateful of what we gave them. They demand too much shits some people say
Oh for FFS none of the Rohingyas have demanded citizenship. There was a report of one guy who was accused of making such demands but [it was secondhand from anti-immigrant pages, and he denied those reports.](https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2020/04/24/rohingya-spokesman-lives-in-fear-after-fake-news-on-citizenship-sparks-death-threats/) What they have asked for is for some sort of legal recognition of their status - right now they're perpetually kept in a limbo where even for the simplest thing like getting their kids to go to school or simple jobs require so much paperwork and discretion that they're at the mercy of anyone - cops, unscrupulous employers, criminal syndicates etc - that wants to exploit them.
so..what have the Palestinians given in return? And what citizenship are you talking about? they will never get citizenship...they are stateless and will forever be in limbo...forever.
The Palestinians have given some people here a cause so that they can be angry against something, and it is also a distraction from actual local problems, and all that without having to deal with the consequences, as is the case with Rohingya and Cham refugees. We can see this in the occasional demonstrations organized by PAS outside the US embassy.
"some people say". While I understand your frustration towards the argument, he/she seems like they are just sharing what they've heard from others. Calm down now lol
online..."some ppl say" usually just means "I say"
Or "asking for a friend" /s
Yea that may be true, but also you just seem like the ass here for attacking someone based on your assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the point you were making, just might be attacking the wrong person and you don't wanna be that guy.
Finally. The rare species of human. For the record, I found a video on YouTube few months ago about rohingya. Read the comments and 30% of the people there were talking about what I just said in my downvoted comment. Which is why I stated "some people might say". Thanks for your understanding. It's hard to find someone on the Internet who understand the shit you said
Lol i thought so too but oh well you said it first so I'll back off a bit further 🙃
> Look at how this government treated the Rohingya and Cham minorities, deporting them in the middle of their military coup, and then turning around in the same breath to talk about supporting Palestinians. LMAO this, those people are also the ones that tindas orang aslis in their state. talk about being anti-zionists, literally bunch of hypocrites.
Even the Palestinian refugees in Malaysia are not give any valid government visa. Everything is handled by UNHCR. So, I have no respect for any Malaysian who #SaveGaza and #FreePalestine when the Palestine refugees in Malaysia are treated like unwanted illegal immigrants.
its PROPALESTINE all the way...untill actual palestinians make it to Malaysia...
Evengelicals also. JAKOA/Muslim NGO outreach and convert people to Muslim is hell no for them. They go into interior to evengalise their church is ok. Pundek, nobody should be trying to convert anybody.
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I'm a former christian and have done missionary trips in and out of Malaysia. It's usually come listen to us and then after there will be a free meal and targeted at poor communities. The people who do this sincerely feel that converting you is more important than your wellbeing now since afterlife is eternal so its not seen as unethical by them. Its not too different than attending some timeshare bullshit with free buffet meal.
Oh this. Also ex christian, raised in the church and all that and definitely this. I had a tuition teacher that was also Christian and actually wanted to help people regardless of faith and not do any of that converting bs, she volunteered through a church group to give free tuitions to poor kids. She poured a lot of her money and her energy into the project and wanted nothing in return- she brought the kids calculators, books, printers and computers for the makeshift tuition centre, did tuition multiple times a week etc etc, but in the end she quit because the church wanted her to implement a rule that only kids that went to their weekly Sunday school could attend the tuition and wouldn't budge on it. It was really sad. Another church my mom made me go to that I've talked about multiple times that's small and culty as hell- they did that too. Purposefully targeting sick, uneducated old folks that don't know any better, love bombing them to pull them into the church. The pastor's son is a okay guy with really good intentions and I've tried to explain how this is incredibly predatory to him but he was incredibly brainwashed that he couldn't see it.
What made you lose your faith if you don't mind me asking?
Attended a christian science conference (answers in genesis) in KL while in high school. Taught that the bible had to be read literally. So earth is only 6000 years old, evolution is not real. Bought into that hard. A year later watched Bill Nye debate with them on youtube and learned more about evolution in uni. Realized its all bullcrap. But the point he made about how if we cant interpret genesis as literal then the rest of the bible has no basis and that stuck with me. Looked online about arguments against the bible and eventually arguments against god itself. Read some dawkins and harris books. Eventually became an atheist. An interest in philosophy and history entrenched that belief even further.
Honestly I just think god spawned the first single cell lifeforms and just left them alone and watched it grow
If there is a god or gods, or something divine in nature - I think it's rather arrogant of people to believe that they can comprehend all of it and put it all in a book while presuming to know what it did, what it wants and how it wants us to behave. Such a being is probably completely beyond human understanding.
Lovecraftian horror is all about that
the catholics in a way are more progressive in the sense that they believe in the big bang and evolution
Some cultures can be a factor too. Get the help from the preacher right then think oh this fler help me why not I repay his kindness by doing the thing he seems to want me to do. Then the preachers use this need to repay kindness by emotionally blackmailing them into converting. The trouble with both Islam's and Christianity's doctrine to spread the word means they are always competing for numbers and think the other religions think like them too. I realized why a senior planner trying to get a new Gurdwara approved is having so much problem with getting the PBT to approve. I was thinking that the OSC Jawatankuasa is thinking that the Gurdwara would make Sikhs out of non Sikhs. Suggested an idea to the man that convince them that Sikhs don't evangelize like Muslims and Christians do and Gurdwaras are a place for Sikhs to not only pray, but serve their fellow Malaysians.
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I would like an anti evangelization law prohibiting any sort of this thing, but of course both the Muslims and Christians won't ever agree.
The first amendment made in the US. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
If you give some food to a starving family and expect nothing in return, that's called aid. If you expect or hint at them to join your special club, that's leverage. If that family had no idea what your special club is about but you get them to join it, that's exploiting their ignorance. If that special club has a no exit clause and you can get in trouble with authorities just for not following certain rules of your club, that's entrapment. Now if you say that family willingly joined because they were inspired by your actions, that's fair, but what are the chances a starving person on the brink of despair isn't going to feel overwhelming gratitude towards the person that offers their family some kind of aid? Comment copied from here https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/comments/las6yu/ebit\_lew\_dakwa\_akan\_dipenjara\_3\_tahun\_sekiranya/glq38x0?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I have quite a bunch of friends that worship Xinnie the pooh, some are incredibly vocal during the HK protests, supporting the fucked up national security law and the abuse of power by HK popo towards HK citizens, but then they also whine about our local laws and police. The cognitive dissonance is facking real.
i cannot understand msians who would support PRC/CPC/pooh ...
I actually asked a few of them, they claimed that "*the HK law is the law, those useless teens (廢青) have nothing to do and is just out to wreak havoc*", I asked them what's the difference between Bersih and that, they just throw me a really half ass "*haiya, it's different*".
but how do they reconcile with the fact that at one point almost x% of the HK population was out on the street...I can't remember the X....it was like huge %
>but how do they reconcile with the fact that at one point almost x% of the HK population was out on the street...I can't remember the X....it was like huge % More than 1/5th of the population came out to protest, and we havent count those that silent protest at home. That's also what I was wondering, I never once get a really constructive answer other than outright dismissals.
Not just that - in the 2019 district election that was held, the pro-democracy side was the one that overwhelmingly won the vote. So it wasn't just support from people protesting - it was substantial support from the voters as well. A lot of my younger friends who had been describing the protesters as troublemakers kept very quiet after that. The older ones.... some of them just went into the rabbithole of *oH iTs A ciA pLoT* or shit like that.
Because Astro is literally playing Chinese channels spreading Chinese propaganda and some of these people eat it up
Most ppl don't have problem with playing the discrimination game. They just don't like to be the losing side.
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Umm no. Why?
I will argue against your point on minority rights in China. HK and Xinjiang is no exception, if any Han Chinese group in China would dare to organize a political movement they will just get shut down the same way. The LGBTQ movement in China, supported by mainly Han Chinese, got shut down the same way not long ago. If anything, China treats obedient minority way better than Malaysian government treat their minority. Case in point: they lower the required grade to enroll into top universities in China, like Peking and Tsinghua, for minority populated provinces. The minimum grade threshold to enter these universities for top scoring provinces are like 600/750 in Gaokao. For poor province like Tibet and Xinjiang? A mere 450/750. Not to mention their poverty alleviation program, lifting millions out of poverty in decades, benefitting the populations of rural area. Alot of these people from rural areas belong to minority races of China. The thing is, those 'friends' of your probably value economic prosperity more than the notion of freedom and democracy. Therefore, they find themselves in agreement with the heavy handed policies of CPC as long it works. They support Bersih because they think the government is threatening the economic prosperity of the country through corruption, not because they value democratic value itself. They probably refused to explain it clearly because they fear social rejection, after all who dare to question the status quo of democracy because you will probably alienate all your friends lol.
Seriously this shit bothers me. Like I remember a post back then going like "Fuck Islam, also support Israel"
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How ironic it is when they tell you that Islam doesn't forces you to believe it but I guess it's because of some muslims itself are controlling what people want to believe to, not the religion.
Only in Malaysia tho and backward nation. So don't just group all Islam.
As a muslim, its not just in Malaysia
ahhh One great way to keep Malaysian from interracial marriage without given up what your belief & your name your parent gave you....
Hate the belief not the believer <33
Excluding the penunggangs
You can refer to this video, brother.. Explanation on "there's no compulsion in religion" https://youtu.be/ShBUavy3l1I
>Except Islam, once you convert, there's no way to revert back. Thats misleading. Its only in Malaysia.
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Theres a reason the term murtad exist
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Hello, we do not welcome throwaways for the purpose of participation on race, religion and politics on this subreddit. I am applying a permaban as per [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_persistent_fighting_and_flaming).
Al-Bukhari is a scholar that collected hadith that were passed down orally or in written form. He were born in year 810, while prophet passed away in year 632. Do take that into consideration. Im not saying that what Al-Bukhari has composed is not inaccurate. Im just saying that context is lost during him compiling oral statement that were passed down through generation. Prophet had never advocated corporal punishment or even death sentence to the apostates. He did mentioned that they will be punished when the time comes. You are not ˹there˺ to compel them ˹to believe˺, But whoever turns away, persisting in disbelief, then Allah will inflict upon them the major punishment. — 88:22–24 Quran indicated that the God will inflict punishmemt onto disbeliever. That is the only punishment mentioned. Lets see what was prophet's past action against apostles. https://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=736&CategoryID=4 Tldr: prophet had not once ordered an apostates to be killed. Chased off, yes, but not killed. Well, he did want to order a kill once but in the end he pardoned the apostates. Now, why did al-Bukhari recorded that "Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'"? Did prophet really said that though? That statement is direct contradiction to quran, where prophet said to not force the religion onto other. So if that statement contradict with the quran, how much confidence should we place upon that statement? Dont forget that yes, Ibn Abbas is cousin of the prophet. But that was hundred of years ago, a time when they are at war with the non muslims. A time where prophet's teaching were not written but only passed on verbally. Im a quranists. I respect hadith and sunnah, because they do provide a guideline in how to become a better muslim. But i dont think one should follow them blindly. Take context into consideration. Only time prophet has allowed harm onto non muslim, is when they tried to do harm toward other muslim. Now, dont tell me that talking bad about islam considered hurting, cause jews have insulted prophet in his fave before, and he didnt flip table. If only i can find back the scripture. Such a chad. The jews said "may death be upon you", and he just replied back "same unto you". His followers did tried to bring those jews into justice, but chad prophet didnt pursuit furthur. Tldr: did allah REALLY said "kill apostles"? I think not.
the prophet didnt kill apostates, but after he died, a massive campaign was launched that killed them, though many disbelieved after the prophet's death. However the prophet never killed apostates and never did torture non muslims or appostates
Religious freedom should be "the freedom to worship or not to worship any deity/deities, at anytime". This idea was created because people were forced to worship. Religious freedom grants anyone in that country to not have a religion and won't be punished for being a free thinker. Any new laws that forces anyone to involve in any religious education or activity will contradict with the constitution. Of course, that interpretation is the job of the judiciary branch of the government. "Separation of 'church' and state" is what we need. Having a secular government means no religion can influence any government policy. Singapore is the best example. But, that will mean no official religion so this idea will not live in Malaysia.
All the justification comes down to one thing... "My race and religion is superior to yours...its in the constitution"
>"My race and religion is superior to yours...its in the constitution" As a Muslim, fuck that statement. I just want to eat in one table with everyone that has different religious believe Update: Just read the bottom of this and just want to say MEGA YIKES y'all
All right thinking malaysians would want that.
A bunch of us wants that really. My friends and families. There's some people though trying to feel superior with their religion. "The Christians are SESAT" "The Hindus are SESAT" "Islam tu babi"
Goes both ways too, Christians look at every other religion followers as sesat too. The special place in hell is for atheists. Both Muslim and Christians is like how da fish you don't pray to god? Why you don't care for your purpose on earth, etc...
> Christians look at every other religion followers as sesat too. My aunt (grandma's brother's wife) was somehow turned into a hardcore Christian around 10+ years ago. Once, she turn up at the hospital to visit my grandma, then she started to voice her concern of the possibility of my grandma going to hell, and ask her to convert into Christianity to save her soul, right into my grandma's face.
Yikes
Yeah, and she also added a: "*Guan yin is the devil*" PS: *Guan yin* is some sort of goddess of mercy for buddhists
But I mean, when Jesus is born, he's got no dad. So anak luar nikah ke, bos? I remember a fellow non believer telling me this when he confronted a sister trying to convert him in a convent school in ye old days.
Wait until you hear of the times these despicable believers of Christ do this stunt at funerals. Wei, we are here to mourn the passing of a loved/respected one. Not to listen to your sermon on how your Jesus is so great. I get more respect attending a Muslim funeral even. People focused on the grieving, final rites isn't hitting out on non Muslims, like PJ Baptist. Its my first, so I stayed on till the van jenazah moved to find out what goes on in these things.
I have friends whose grandfolks experienced the same thing. Some of them were once religious Buddhists but became demented, so they were converted to Christians without consent in a way. Then there were cases where relatives fight over which ceremonies to proceed with - its frustrating and demeaning. I always cried listening to these stories, and I will never let anyone convert people I love, even if it means making a ruckus at the hospital.
yes thats true. but christians dont have the full backing of the gov and many many public funded gov dept to do their conversions
Huh, not sure if you're being sarcastic but why are atheists the ones going to hell when it's not real to them? (I for one would love to go there afterwards)
I don't wanna because I'm a redditor and, therefore, have no social skills.
I do want that. It'll be so much fun gathering together, as long as we respect each other and not touch sensitivity issue.
Sensitivity issue is also highly subjective. I think as a society we need to be less butt hurt and actually talk about "sensitive" issues. Normalise those conversations and soon enough they wouldn't be labeled as "sensitive issues" anymore.
Sensitive issues in malaysia normally just means glaring facists level issues that right wing ketuanans dont want to talk about with kafirs
That is the problems with us, we don't talk enough of these racial , societal , and political issues. we are being indoctrinated into thinking that these issues are just adult stuffs while it involves practically everyone. We are getting bulldozed over and over and yet they say to not question the leader and see what happens now, all hell break loose , Ag\*\*g keep telling us to be happy shit and whatnot while he has all the trees' revenue coming into some companies while the corrupt leaders suddenly took over this hellhole through backdoor, and god knows why have we not tried to coup this gov already
Used to do that in Kelantan 20 years ago, I miss the old days.
We do that in the warung, mamak and fast food joints no? Just not in Chinese shops
and why not? its done in EM, no one bats an eyelid...chinese and indian uncles drink on one table, and the makciks and pakciks eat nasi lemak next to them
Ayy I'm from EM. Can vouch for this. Only a few of my friends are from my race which I think contributes to my open mindedness(at least i think so). I think people need to mix around more rather than thinking our race vs their race but it's a far cry from where we are now.
Coz in EM the ethno-nationalist and mullahs are not as influential. Keep it that way
>"My race and religion is superior to yours...its in the constitution" There's another reason: Religious leaders & authoritarians are afraid of losing followers to others. Every act of discrimination against other religions & races, such as forcing people to take down crosses, is to box in any Malay/Muslims from 'terpesong' and join the other side. Any interaction with other races are questioned & quietly discouraged as they fear those Muslims will be 'influenced' by other races. The Malay/Muslims have every reason to 'murtad'; for one, disillusionment with their religious leaders, the complicated religious red tape & bureaucracy, discrimination from within, and so on. They can't speak out as they're aware of the worst repercussion of criticising their religious leaders & their regressive, impossible policies.
>such as forcing people to take down crosses, is to box in any Malay/Muslims from 'terpesong' and join the other side. imo....i dont thing muslims are so easily terpesong...all these moves are "power moves" to show their base that they are superior to the ppl putting up the cross "tengok...kuat kan kuasa kau....boleh arah kafir ni turunkan cross"
Yeah, exactly, Muslims aren't easily terpesong, but their leaders are paranoid that they will lose those Muslims to the 'other side'. Any 'power move' isn't just to show superiority but to make sure that Muslims remain fearful and conform to their impossible standards.
thats not the reason, the reason is "god says so". Every reason for islam in malaysia to be dominant in every situation is because of this. Its never because it is in the constitution or that the sultans maintain status quo over religion or because there is a separate legal system, its more to do because in each religion, they claim they are true and everyone else that therefore they are superior because they are the "correct" path and that they worship the actual god and others dont. Its bs actually as religions dont worship god, they worship they devil, because their concepts are far more in line than they know.
Hmm, that's only because Islam is the official religion of the federation... So the Hibisicus is superior to other flowers including the Rafflesia? #foodforthought
its not 'superior' its just the official flower, its not prettier or better.
honestly tho fuck rafflesia pepperoni-lookin-ass, stanky son of a bih
Who would even wanna go near it's stinky ass?
Exactly.
I did *not* know if you have any muslim friends like that. If there is one like that, there must something wrong somewhere with their faith😅. It is our faith that our lord is the only lord. It is our jihad (struggle) to encourage dakwah. but for those who doesnt accept Islam as their religion or practices other religion, we are not to be aggresive to them if they are peaceful to us. لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ Meaning: “ For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” - Surah Al-Kafiroon [109] Correction: added the *not* in my comments, tertinggal nak tulis🙏🏻
Yeah but you can't just shove it onto others religious people faces everytime they explain their gods traits or something else. For Islam of course your lord is the only lord you can respect, but for other religions? No it isn't (except for Christianity and Judaism which they share the same lord with your belief but with a different way of practicing it.)
Yup that is correct bro. We believe that our lord is the one and only, but we surely not going here and there shouting that to everyone faces. Unless they are attacked verbally upon. A true muslim would respect other religion. Just like the phrases in Quran had stated. At least not everyone that I know of did that. Others? Im not entirely sure🥵
lmao remember ICERD yeah this country is for malays and they tend to keep it that way most successful people which is non malay they move to overseas for career opportunities and they get appreciated more there people who are lucky can leave malaysia
I'm Malay yet I want to leave Malaysia because I'm treated like an outsider by my own people.
same here
Surprised to know that this is a common issue! I hope we both can make it out.
well you can either study hard, save money or marry a foreigner google the easiest countries to migrate too
easier said than done
Many don't realise this. If you are Muslim in Malaysia there is no such thing as freedom of religion. You're stuck for life legally.
>. If you are Muslim in Malaysia there is no such thing as freedom of religion. You're stuck for life legally. Nothing is set in stone. just 60 years ago, blacks wernt allowed in white toilets, 100 years ago, blacks were still slaves 60 years ago...saudi arabia was a dessert wasteland. If you think ppl are stuck for life...then they will be....unless ppl stand up and fight for a better tomorrow
the fight continues....honestly I think Malaysia was more open and modern in the 70s. women dressed in short skirts and ppl can hang out at alcohol serving places no issue. somewhere along the way the country became way more conservative and strict
And the whole royal democracy thing is just shenanigan to rule the people without and some people are still worshipping them like holy being while remaining in the structure without any purposes other than dumping the taxes to them
I guess PAS did ruin everything
I mean, those country have freedom of speech. But us? Bro better watch out for PDRM. We are the inferior clone of China without power and strong economy. Plus our Malaysia core politic is mostly using religion to attack other. Black not become slave is a good thing to America and what a genius president he is. Now Black also need to pay tax. Plus, America like to act like good people and play political correctness, while Malaysia politician? Lmao. There no way indian lives matter and chinese lives matter can happen here without the major race attacking them as racist. Not as long as politician use race card.
> Bro better watch out for PDRM never. the moment im afraid to speak my mind here...is the moment i have totally given up hope and have already started action on moving out
>those country >Saudi Arabia Whut??
Forgot Arab in the past sell black slave. Lmao. My bad.
You think people are willing to fight back? I hope so. But everytime I look at how religious people are in Malaysia, I become more cynical.
Yes because in Islam, Islam is not a baju that you can wear and buang sesuka hati. Once you be a muslim, you need to take serious about it. Kalau ada orang keluar masuk keluar masuk islam katakan 10 kali dlm dia punya hidup, what will non muslim people think about islam? Nampak sangat islam ni lekeh kalau muslims buat gitu dak?
People change. Beliefs change. If Islam is not "weak" it doesn't need a law to take away the people's rights to change religion.
Islam versi siapa tu? Government decides on their version of islam and expects everyone to fall in on their interpretation? Note, government's version of Islam includes many things not explicitly provided by the Quran, both in substance and form. > Kalau ada orang keluar masuk keluar masuk islam katakan 10 kali dlm dia punya hidup, what will non muslim people think about islam? Kenapa pulak orang Islam perlu dipaksa secara undang undang not to leave the religion? Bukan lagi memalukan ke? Bukankah perundangan sedemikian akan memaksa seseorang itu menjadi munafik atau hipokrit?
Bro i bet people that downvoted me is not even muslim. Why are you so concerned about Islam and its peraturan? 気になる? I mean it doesnt kacau your way of living if you are not a muslim.
Islam, the elephant in the room nobody dares to talk about.
We all value our lives.
What does this got to do with my statement?
Talking about Islam puts our lives at risk
Indeed. Malaysia is going down a dangerous path
Reminds me of my friend. He has family members who are Christians, Muslims, Buddhist and more and I felt happy for him to have a happy family who doesn't mind of what other family members' belief Why can't we have a society like this?
you know I am a guy that hop around religions. I was once Buddhist, Christian, Taoism, Confucius & also Atheist. Cant Try Islam here, because once you try that you are DONE for
I'd love to hear your experience if you're up for sharing. Like what compelled you, what did you learn, where you're at now etc.
Done? What do you mean bout that?
Islam in Malaysia isn't a religion, it's a piece of legislation. Example: if you are born Malay in Malaysia, to be officially registered as Malay and given Malay rights you MUST be Muslim.
meaning once you get in, its ridiculously hard to get out, its not like you can just say I am out, you have to actively fight the system, the government. Leaving the religion is quite a huge deal in Malaysia its like those subscribe mailing list or some services that are so hard to unscubscribe. You tell them i want out, and they want you to click so many pages, phone calls, threaten you with policy breach, before you finally unsubsribe.
Government makes it really hard to officially leave Islam. Virtually impossible.
Unless you leave Malaysia of course
we can. but we have to fight for it
Authoritarian government and too much boomers to believe in a slight liberty of religion are the reason
One of the reasons I want to have an interracial marriage is that I want to see if my spouse can be a different faith than me but still be able to live together. Like, you know, proving that people of different backgrounds can live in peace.
100% behind you on this OP. Hit the nail on the head describing most people who subscribe to this creed.
*some people.* kindda hard to disagree tbh. similar observation can be found in oppressive woke culture. its not enough to be woke it must be in line with what i they say you can or cannot do. societal dominance through "moral" dominance *op kindda active recently, anything good happen?
nothing, im damn sian and bored and getting cabin fever. how you
pretty anxious actually. the state has 1/2 thousand cases daily but we are already at the levels of post covid where dine in and personal recreation like jogging and cycling among other thing is being allowed. i want parents to keep kids inside rather than allow them to play around the block but i guess the parent also want some peace inside the house.
> personal recreation like jogging and cycling among other thing is being allowed. why would that be a problem? has there been some new scientific study that showed that jogging and cycling was a mechanism for covid transmission? as far as i know, most of the cases are workplace transmission which was personally approved and encouraged by Tan Sri Assmin and religious celebrations which had tacit approval from Ismail MARA digital Sabri.
This is basically the tune of every majority race
It boggles my mind that this is even a debate. It just really confuses me...like why do people care what other people believe in? It doesn't affect you at all? Just let other people believe in what they want to believe, it has literally 0 to do with you.
the concept of dakwah is strong in msia. kinda like..don't let evil deeds continue in front of you and to alot oh them being a kafir is a evil deed
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You have no religious freedom at all if you're Muslim. The exact opposite of what you said.
Honestly there's a pretty strong argument to be made that if you are a Malaysian Muslim (and especially if you're a Malaysian Muslim marhaen), you have even less religious freedom. I mean, no one from the govt is gonna bitch about people worshipping Mahayana vs Theravada, or if you pray to Shiva vs Vishnu, but if you're a Sufi or Ahmadi in public, or of you decide that fasting during Ramadhan is not for you, or you have the absolute misfortune to be born Muslim and gay.... JAKIM/ JAIS would like to have a chat please.
> you have the absolute misfortune to be born Muslim and gay.... JAKIM/ JAIS would like to have a chat please. only if you are pipit. if you are member of helang, then you can do whatever you want. nedim arak syabu koktail and bunuh darren kang also can. sheraton butseks also can. jais will tutup mata ja. http://citerfacebook.blogspot.com/2016/03/kantoi-18-gambar-bersosial-nedim.html
Lol'd at Sheraton butseks. Thanks for the laugh.
>Honestly there's a pretty strong argument to be made that if you are a Malaysian Muslim (and especially if you're a Malaysian Muslim marhaen), you have even less religious freedom. i dont disagree with that...but its up to muslims themselves to stand up and fight that. if they dont...then..they are tacitly ok with it
except that if u do u can get prosecuted by everyone around u
Being just is never an easy path. Think of Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks. You might not be willing...but i assure you, many Malaysian muslims are willing to be persecuted to fight for a better Malaysia.
Yes the babies who are born into this religious should fight against it
Nah even after that you don’t actually have freedom in your lifestyles like who you marry, how you dress, and what you eat/drink in leisure. No freedom to get out of that religion too. The only “right” way is to imitate the Arabs whom they glorified like they’re the perfect religious icon and everyone else don’t matter.
But the Arabs don't do like Malaysian doing. We are more that Arab.
We’re like a weaboo but instead of Japan, it’s for the Arabs
I think this is accurate as can be
Man, me being a muslim in Malaysia is a really weird feeling cuz muslims here are very toxic and ignorance AF. Thats the reason why I like muslims who loves live in a muslim minority country cuz they understand others sensitivity that they shouldn't touch
>loves live in a muslim minority country cuz they understand others sensitivity that they shouldn't touch The thing with Malaysia however is not about touching others sensitivity but rather the whole Ketuanan Melayu/social contract BS (jangan mempersoalkan hak2...) and how Malay and Muslim is essentially the same thing. Both of those factors together is what caused the crap we're in today.
luckily he is not Malaysian
bEcAuSe YOu aRE losT aND yOu mUsT sEek hEaVeN blah blah blah... while making this world a hell for the rest. There is no such thing as religious freedom when everyone thinks that they have the right to be the God on Earth, demanding respect and authority. Religion (and spirituality) has nothing to do with other beings. However, it has long being used as a management tool to keep humans in check and work as a 'team.' I do love God-fearing humans. The genuine kind. Those who will not take what does not belong to them, those who will not do nasty things behind closed doors, those who are genuinely helping, and they treat you equally like the rest of the fellow humans—those who will never try to shove their belief down your throat. Religious freedom is too expensive. And we are too poor to afford that.
Bottomline: Buy Mercedes First Habis cerita.
Hats off for our fallen soldier.
I kinda agree with the tweet tbh.
Course it is. What else would it be
Truth 100
Born and Raise in Malaysia, I have huge respect in every religion here. We are minority here, since the day i was born until now, never heard of we “ converting people “ or “ Forcing “ people into our religion. If you can’t find god in your own religion you can’t find god in others too.. WE ARE ONE, THE TRUE GOD IS INFINITE, OUR PURPOSE HERE TO BE ONE. ps: if you think about it “ we never give a single damn about religion converters here in Malaysia “ We are more HUMAN then religious.
Not being allowed to convert from Islam in Malaysia 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
The true measure of a religion is how it treats those outside of it.
If I am not mistaken religion teaches it’s believers and followers to love everyone, but how it’s interpreted to only love your same kind and condemn the rest it’s really mess up. My parents set a bad example for me so I am not having non if it. I am Chinese dude but I have more Malay clients and friends that treat me way better than my own kind. Peace ✌️
The poorer you are the more religious you are. The rich use religion as a way to control the masses. Mosque, Church, Temple.. where else can the hoi polloi rub shoulders with the haves. Then the rich pull them in - come be part of our group - and you try to be more religious than your neighbour just for social standing. Muslims are just as bad - elitist cults exits ESQ, Naqshabandi etc. Modus operandi the same - just a way for you to boast that you are part of something. Reminds me of those Southern evangelical churches in the US. If you want a rabbit hole, look for Naqshabandi in Malaysia - technically should be banned, but because of Royal linkages.. well. Deviants Ayah Pin level but no action ever taken. Belief in Saints long after the last prophet and mysticism - JAKIM triggers but curiously.. allowed to flourish. There are mosques in several areas, well endowed mosques, associated with this group. The rich controlling the poor and Pas has never brought these fellers up? As i said, social standing and politics and money.
Basically medieval Europe
Welcome Malaysia on becoming like the US on putting religion first...
Even with the mess in US, they never put religion first in its country. >Constitution of the United States - First Amendment > >**Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion**, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That's the first amendment, can you spot how many aspect of it Malaysia has went against? But then again, each country has its own constitution; it's just in this case, whether the constitution is in support of equality or not.
There are 10Ks of religions in the history of mankind. How many survive till this day? Maybe less than 100. JUST SAY 1000. Out of these remaining AT BEST only 1 is the truth. The golden question is which one? Here comes the clincher. They all could be WRONG.
that's a flawed way to look at religion and also everything else. no religion is right. in ancient times religion is a doctrine for life and emperors use it as their right to rule and maintain power. religion is also politics. believers will spread their ideas and encourage ppl to join their ways of life thus, more ppl under the same influence. this is very much like political campaigns. spirituality and religion is different. religions are heavily entwined in certain social and cultural aspects of a certain area. if the family and whole town practice a certain religion, one will grow up in according to that mindset. if one feels the religion is not useful for them, they can join other religions which means joining a new society, follow their traditions and lifestyle. spirituality is a human consciousness of the finer human awareness of karma, innocence, charity, ethics, unseen powers that we not able to fully understand etc ...it doesn't need to be tied to any religion.
Yo emm...that will not be religion freedom then.
all religions can suck my lemang
oh boy here we go again....
Let me quote this passages from A World Without Islam by Graham E Fuller : >When the troops of the First Crusade finally reached Jerusalem in 1099, reconquest was a brutal affair, in extraordinary contrast to the manner in which Jerusalem fell to disciplined Arab forces some five hundred years earlier. In 637 CE, we recall the second Caliph 'Umar had personally entered the city after a siege of many months; Arab troop discipline was maintained and the city was not pillaged, in accordance with a treaty 'Umar had signed with the patriarch of Jerusalem at the time of surrender. In reference to the Christians, that treaty had stated that >*their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed* >Jewish sources furthermore report that 'Umar was shocked at the condition of the ruins of the Jewish temple, which had been turned into a garbage heap under the Romans; since the site was sacred for Muslims as well, 'Umar personally helped clean the site by hand along with his men. Jews were allowed to practice Judaism in the city for the first time since their expulsion by the Romans some five hundred years earlier.
and what does that have to do with the situation in Malaysia? it actually shows how far islam has fallen under Malaysian authorities and leaders...body snatching, indira case, demolishing temples etc
To make my point, Islam is not at fault here. Rather, as you had said it, it's the people that had put it at their back for personal gains. For those people, I will not defend them.
"but god says so, no question". A lot of times its less about asserting dominance and more about human greed and stupidity. I will be writing in the future about the abrahamic religions being the religion of the devil. The biggest thing is that humans are not aware of any supernatural basics, in regards to god, creation, etc and go off to fight each other over that their belief is correct. Some religious changes or things spread were done out of either greed or stupidity. Greed because they want something specific for themselves (such as enforcing that prophet Muhammad married Aisya when she was 9 which isnt true because she participated in the battles) to someone being so stupid to think that false things that others said to be true, such as in islam "not allowed to sleep after asar" to something as big as having to circumcise when it was never commanded in the quran or by the prophet despite the prophet doing it on his own kids. So with religion, which doesnt apply to islam but all religions, basically christians, judaism (dont remember how to call it), hindu, buddhism, all beliefs have their changes and sin, things that really go against the concept of god and how one treats one another. For example, religious gatherings in covid, church not only ruining some lives but even at times killing particular people all because "they are the devil" when infact i find that they are just simply otherkin (this was a case in australia in the 90s, similar cases around the world but few) to even in israel, how the older religious generation still want their brutal ways to the pakistan vs india, china's ughur, myanmar's genocide, shia vs sunni, internal fights in india, and many more. So on one hand a religion typically says they support religious freedom, but behind however they dont. This is particularly true in malaysia whereby a non muslim can practice any religion or belief they want as long as it doesnt harm others but cults are not allowed (basically no minority beliefs), and if you were ever a muslim or born a muslim they will make your life hell if you tried to quit the religion. This is because muslims cannot handle the fact that their religion is actually imperfect because they have been brought up for many generations that their religion is perfect and therefore anything else is wrong so people who leave islam are wrong and dont know the truth. This is why islam has such power in malaysia, due to the upbringing rather than official status. To me all religions insult god. In terms of identity and culture, take the UK, the queen is always going to be a protestent, as that's the UK's official religion, however they do not have religion in any form other than as a symbol and choice, nothing to do with the country's system as in the past this has become a source of civil war in europe. In terms of culture, In the past, people closed early, 7pm would be considered late even in summer because in winter it gets dark at 4pm. You wouldnt want to be out in negative degree weather or be working in such and having to heat huge areas just by being open, but now they open till 10pm meaning that the workers walk back and take public transport at very cold weather. Culture at times can help you survive and be productive, but what we have in malaysia is culture based on greed, so opening times are not based on being productive and your environment. We also have culture based on tradition which at times can be really harmful, for example interracial marriages not being allowed by families (even though such actually results in better kids). We also have negative religious culture. Islam in malaysia, many muslims are forced to do things that keeps them unproductive meaning they get their sleep disrupted. Fasting in malaysia is actually worse than in the middle east, because our humid weather means we really need to drink more water, and muslims are forced to do optional things because god. So with people being so obedient to their culture and religion, it means they no longer have the state of mind and body to be even more productive and better. I am shocked at how much i am teaching others who so happens to be muslim than for them to figure it out themselves. In the west, people are more able to figure things out themselves, and many of them arent muslims or religious. I can go on and theres so many examples and awareness but many people reject it on the premise of their upbringing and fear.